border fence

[Thanatoast]

link (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040219/ap_on_re_us/border_fence_1)

this article talks about how homeland security wants to run a giant fence along the border to mexico.

okay, now i sympathize with the border patrol, but they've got an impossible job. no amount of fencing is going to stop migration across the border.

i mean, come on people, can you imagine the conversation in dc?

"we've got a border problem"

"we've always have had a border problem"

"well, now with 9-11, we've got a great excuse to crack down. what should we do?"

"how about a laser-guided missle system launched from roving ai-controlled tanks?"

"no good. the president saw terminator 3"

"i know! how about we build a huge fence around the entire country! that'll keep the foreign bastards out!"

"hmmmm"

a giant fence? genius.

now, i know project "giant fence around the country" was actually started in the clinton administration, but it was a bad idea then, and it still is. i guess basically what i'm trying to say is that it's time to look over our immigration policy again and decide if building a giant fence around our country is what's best for the nation in the long run.

whatever happened to "give me your tired, your poor..."?

[zimv20]

it would be a bit hypocritical for the administration to support building such a fence, as bush has been raising a stink to sharon about the fence he's building

[DavisBAnimal]

Just an aside, but anyone ever see that episode of TV Nation Mike Moore did back in the day where he had guys running over the US-Canadian border off in the woods somewhere with backpacks full of cigarettes and automatic rifles, and then guys wearing huge signs saying "We are Canadian citizens illegally crossing the US border in order to steal jobs from Americans" walking past border guards at border check points?

Oh classic - when are they going to bring that back?

[Desertrat]

The trouble with "give me your tired, your poor" is that we're being overwhelmed by them. Depending on whose numbers you believe, somewhere around eight million or more illegals are running loose in this country and causing some serious troubles.

Fence? Sounds like an idea from somebody who's never tried to build and maintain a fence. A fence is vulnerable to any kid who has attained the age of pliers, hacksaw or bolt-cutters--much less a serious border-jumping coyote.

Given the era in which we live, I can but wonder if the proponent of this idea has any relationship with a fence-supply company...

:), 'Rat

After I posted the above, I remembered an event from down here in the Big Bend of Texas: The folks at Big Bend Naitonal Park decided to build some ten miles of fence to keep local ranchers' cows out. They let a contract and a crew went to work. They built some miles of fence, and some Official Person went out to inspect the work in progress.

Oops! It seems that in the dead of night (?) some wetbacks from across the Rio Grande had come along a mile or three behind the fence builders--and had stolen a mile or two of wire and steel posts.

[Sparky's]

First let me justifymy existance, amd please have ptiiy on a college grad who can't type or spell accurately. I am a fifth generation Califorinian, who has watched not only his home land but his country slowly slip into the toilet. A fence accross the border only reminds me of Berlin, and I would just as soon shoot any SOB that crosses that line illeagly as look at them. However, let me tell you that I (god forgive me) married an illegal, that after 3 months of falling in lust with, came at me with the "I'm pregnant", and either you mary me or I will go back and have "Your" son in Mexico. So call me a fool I married to give my son a chance at the American life! cool, we divorced, I moved to up-state New York, he's 21 no GED and playing drums in a band that will go nowhere. There's the American dream for you. So Lets build another Berlin Wall on the border and just "try" and shoot anyone who crosses illeagaly.

Sorry, Lets try to persuade Mexico to bring it's sorry ass out of the stone-age and start creating some kind of job market in its homeland, and create some kind of rudimentary education system so maybe, just maybe the people in Mexico might want to "STAY" there and earn a decent living in thier own damn country!!! The unions have only done their fare share of driving any kind of decent paying jobs out of the country, and now they are even going over the border to help unionize "Thier Brothers" over trhe border to organize and get fare wages, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Sorry I went rambling, quessed I'm a conservative?
I'm down off my soap box.
Sparky

[krossfyter]

"Men walkin' 'long the railroad tracks
Goin' some place, there's no goin' back
Highway Patrol choppers comin' up over the ridge
Hot soup on a campfire under the bridge
Shelter line stretchin' round the corner
Welcome to the new world order
Families sIeepin' in their cars in the southwest
No home, no Job, no peace, no rest
The highway is alive tonight
But nobody's kiddin' nobody about where it goes
I'm sitting down here in the campfire light
Searchin' for the ghost of Tom Joad

He pulls prayer book out of his sleepin' bag
Preacher lights up a butt and takes a drag
Waitin' for when the last shall be first and the first shall be last
In a cardboard box 'neath the underpass
Got a one way ticket to the promised land
You got a hole in your belly and a gun in your hand
sleeping on a pillow of solid rock
Bathing in the city aqueduct

The highway is alive tonight
But where It's headed everybody knows
I'm sittin' down here in the campfire light
Waitin' on the ghost of Tom Joad

Now Tom Said, "Mom, wherever there's a cop beatin' a guy
Wherever a hungry new born baby cries
Where there's a fight 'gainst the blood and hatred in the air
Look for me mom I'll be there
Wherever there's somebody fightin' for a pIace to stand
Or decent job or a helpin' hand
Wherever somebody's strugglin' to be free
Look in their eyes mom you'll see me."

The highway is alive tonight
But nobody's kiddin' nobody about where it goes
I'm sitting down here in the campfire light
Searchin' for the ghost of Tom Joad"

[Sayhey]

krossfyter,

love the Springsteen (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=486427&selectedItemId=703142) lyrics. Perhaps some more of us need to remember Tom Joad and all the migrant workers he represented.

'Rat, I have tremendous respect for your contributions to this board, but if you keep using epitaphs like "wetback" I'm going to go crazy. You know better. The story was great, but I can't get past the ignorant word. It is one thing to be against folks coming across the border illegally, it is a whole other thing to start dehumanizing them with such terms.

I'm against the wall for more than just the environmental reasons. It makes no sense. What we need to be about is building an integrated region with Canada and Mexico that is based more on the example of the EU than Israel's wall against Palestinians. That means an aggressive policy to help raise the standard of living and environmental standards in Mexico. This policy of building walls will only hurt the US economically and do little to keep out real terrorists.

[Neserk]

How long ago was it we were all celebrating the fall of the Berlin Wall? Seems to me we have found that walls aren't so great.

All though I hear the Wall of China is pretty awesome!

[Sparky's]

OK just look back in History, every wall no matter where or when built, Berlin, China, Hadrian's in England have all been breeched at some point either by force or by the corrupt keepers of the Gates. The Mongols bought their way into upper China, as the Druids and Pagens did in England. Walls are only good to increase the distance and hatred of those on either side, and only temporarily increase the labor force while the building is done.
I feel the need for our foreign neighbors to bring themselves up to a better level of political, economical, and educational power, but I DON'T feel WE, the US should be responsible for them to achieve this. Assuming thr roll of "Superior" nation that we seem to do, would better be placed if we offered to "Be there" and help these countries achieve their golas, as opposed to us going in and just taking over, and saying "this is what you will do, because we want you to..."
I'm proud to be American and glad I live here, but we have made fools of ourselves and can't go anywhere without fear of reprisal or ridicule. I used to enjoy going to Baja, but now I'm afraid I would be shot, or thrown in jail (by my own countrymen coming back) or mugged and mistreated by the natives. Kinda sad I have to feel this way.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Sparky's

I feel the need for our foreign neighbors to bring themselves up to a better level of political, economical, and educational power, but I DON'T feel WE, the US should be responsible for them to achieve this.

not all fences are physical

[Sayhey]

Sparky,

I said nothing about the US being responsible for bringing about a rise in Mexico's standard of living. I said we need to have a policy with that aim because it is in our interest that it happens. That is not the same thing.

[mactastic]

Before I built a wall I’d ask to know/
What I was walling in or walling out,/
And to whom I was like to give offence.

Robert Frost; Mending Wall

[Sparky's]

SayHey, I don't think I was really pointing a finger hear. If you feel I did, my humblest apologies. Obviously I misread your post intensions, I do that sometimes by reading more into what I see than is actually there. I am mearly trying to bring up an additional point, that we (the US) usually take this kind of holier than thou attitude when we involve ourselves in foreign affairs. I do agree strongly that having a "policy in that direction.." would be a great value though.
I'm not a very srtong strategist, but can at some point see the "Big Picture", and unfortunatley I also see that it's dollars that pursuade the policy making instead of rational thought. I direct you to Charles Lewis, "The Buying of the President 2004 Who's really Bankrolling Bush and His Democratic Challengers—and What They Expect in Return"
I haven't read the entire book yet but at the 1/2 way point I'm leaning to a severe non-commitment zone. What I derive is that it makes no difference who you vote for as to What Lobby you put in Power.

I would really enjoy seeing our neighbors create jobs, build schools, set up a stable infrastructure and become nations that can exist at our level of economical and political power. The Nations of this world (strange choice of words, what other worlds are there?) have been taking advantage of weaker less developed countries since the beginning of time, Without sounding too much like a peace-nic I think its time for a change, and I just want to be fair about it, and still hold my consertvative views

[Desertrat]

Sayhey: "Soy moja'o." = "I'm a wetback." (Moja'o from the border TexMex pronunciation of mojado, or "wet". "Piso mojado" = "Wet floor".)

I grew up around Gringos and Mexicans who used and still use the word. When I'm in conversation with a guy who asks me, "Tiene trabajo?" and refers to himself as a moja'o, it's hard for me to worry about your notions. Call it culture shock and leave it at that. I'm comfortable with the two-countries culture down here on the border. For me it's daily life.

Believe it or not, "wetback" lacks the opprobium of the "N-word". Down here, anyway.

And epitaph is what's on a tombstone, and I ain't ready yet for that. :) Maybeso you wuz thinkin' of "epithet".

'Rat

[Sayhey]

Originally posted by Desertrat
Sayhey: "Soy moja'o." = "I'm a wetback." (Moja'o from the border TexMex pronunciation of mojado, or "wet". "Piso mojado" = "Wet floor".)

I grew up around Gringos and Mexicans who used and still use the word. When I'm in conversation with a guy who asks me, "Tiene trabajo?" and refers to himself as a moja'o, it's hard for me to worry about your notions. Call it culture shock and leave it at that. I'm comfortable with the two-countries culture down here on the border. For me it's daily life.

Believe it or not, "wetback" lacks the opprobium of the "N-word". Down here, anyway.

And epitaph is what's on a tombstone, and I ain't ready yet for that. :) Maybeso you wuz thinkin' of "epithet".

'Rat

'Rat,

thanks for the spelling correction. I'm not ready for an epitaph yet either.:D

I grew up in a valley town (the Napa valley) here in California and if I ever used that word it would have been fighting time. I also worked on many UFW campaigns and helped in some organizing drives in the local fields and I know what people call each other when you know each other is very different than the words one uses with strangers. "Wetback" isn't a word to use with folks you don't know unless you want to tell 'em straight off that they are worth less than you. I don't believe in that crap and try and stay away from such nonsense altogether. Anyway, 'Rat, you aren't talking to people from West Texas border towns in this forum. What goes for Terlingua doesn't always hold for the rest of the world. It sure wouldn't fly in California.

Many, many folks came to this country by hook or by crook - in any way they could and most of them didn't come across the Rio Grande. If you and I look back at our family trees I'd be willing to bet we'd find a few illegal immigrants some where in them. I'd want my ancestors treated with respect - wouldn't you?

[mactastic]

I've know many a black person who refer to themselves and other blacks as '******s'. Does that make it ok for me to call them that, since I hear it all the time?

(That's a rhetorical question, the answer is NO!)

[Desertrat]

Lemme just say I've never thought of moja'os as crooks and criminals...The majority are indeed just looking for work, which is as searing an indictment of the PRI as any there could be.

:) I've waded the Rio a time or two myself, but it was mostly to go to cockfights or parties. (New Year's Day of 1983 saw a birthday party for a Mexican Mafia boss. Helluva time!!! Presidente brandy will provide a next-morning reminder of how much fun you'd had!)

I've been disappointed at the lack of outlaws hanging around my family tree. Maybeso the ones from Georgia might have come from a debtors' prison. Another branch was involved in the long-running Sutton-Taylor feud, fortunately on the same side as John Wesley Hardin. :D But, by and large, teachers and preachers and rancher/farmers. Regardless, my tree has been rooted here for over 200 years, which definitely makes me think of myself as a native American.

A family that's been providing food and education for all that long just ain't no shabby deal.

:), 'Rat

[Dont Hurt Me]

I say building a fence is better then ignoring the problem which is what we have done for the past 50 years. Even after 911 what has the govt done? little to nothing. will we ever start looking out for America instead of every country in the world but our own? The 100 billion in Iraq could have done a lot here at home and we the tax payers get the bill. Why dont we let some of these other countries take care of their problems and lets take care of our problems. Seems we have to Babysit the whole darn Planet at the expense of the American Taxpayer.:mad:

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Desertrat
Regardless, my tree has been rooted here for over 200 years, which definitely makes me think of myself as a native American.
This sure sounds like a case nativism to me, and that's no basis for a sound immigration policy.

You know, whenever I hear someone say that we're "overwhelmed" with immigrants, I think back to my forbearers, who arrived here 100 years ago (this year, in fact). They literally had two dollars to their names, and they were sufficiently despised as a group to feel the need to change their names. People were talking the same way about them as you are about immigrants today. Some things never change, unfortunately.

[Sparky's]

I'm gonna try and clear some of the wine out of my system and make some rational sense. My ancestors also came here over 100 years ago (Scotland), they had a lot of money in their pockets didn't need to change their name, and made very successful livings here. One of my Great....Grandfathers, (mothers side) has his name on a plaque in Richmond Virginia ( I used to have the picture but lost it) It seems he was the first Governor appointed by King James in 1609, the name is Wyatt. 100 years ago this country was the equivalent of an empty bucket that was being filled at an extremely slow rate. As the turn of the century came and went and the influx of refugees after of World War II was over the amount of immigrants increased exponentially to the point now that the bucket is FULL!!
There is a point at which any environment can sustain a population without collapsing. I think the United Sates has pretty much reached that point. If we are to allow any more into this country I believe (and this is my own opinion) those that can prove their worth and ability to contribute to the American society should be allowed in, but Illegals who try to take advantage of the loopholes in the laws and Wellfare of this country should be banished at any cost.
Done.
Sparky