Greece Riots

[XnavxeMiyyep]

I'm surprised that we haven't seen any threads on the riots in Greece. For those who don't know, the riots are in response to a cop who returned to a scene and shot and killed a kid who threw a plastic bottle at him.

Personally, while I'm not sure how effective their methods are, I'm glad there's a full of people who will riot if their cops shoot their citizens.

I heard from some other discussions that this was just a spark that ignited a fire that was already about to burn.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/08/greece
First link in the Google search for greece riots

[Dont Hurt Me]

Wasnt the bottle being thrown at the cop one of those molotov cocktails? If so you have a punk vs here's my chance to use my gun cop.

[Schtumple]

My god, reading that timeline, it's all going down isn't it.

[XnavxeMiyyep]

It seems that the kid actually threw a water bottle and the cop left, then came back, then shot the kid. At least the cop was charged with murder. Seems like the riots will continue on for awhile though:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1865326,00.html

[Peterkro]

For anyone interested here are some links:

(Alexandros)http://athens.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/dsc01568ocxqxc.jpg
(The two cops)
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t97/nada_8/ooo.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t97/nada_8/oo.jpg

(Video of the incident,this is the original the sound has been doctored on the version being shown on TV,the two policemen can be seen strolling away after firing the shots )


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwJZHcMolUA

(various vids,site in Greek)

http://www.zougla.gr/news.php?id=15945

Today the trades union movement is holding a speechifying meeting in Athens but are desperately trying to distance themselves from the protests,the Communist Party are as usual condemning the protest and crying over the property damage,Fascists from Golden Dawn have converged on Patras and are attacking protesters along with the police. Occupations and protests have taken place at Greek Embassies all over Europe.

(Indymedia,in English but are having trouble because of the amount of traffic)

http://athens.indymedia.org/?lang=en

[Anuba]

Wasnt the bottle being thrown at the cop one of those molotov cocktails? If so you have a punk vs here's my chance to use my gun cop.
They didn't even shoot at him directly, he was killed by a ricochet from a warning shot.

I'm all for peaceful protests, but the instant these anarchist swine start destroying property, smashing windows, torching cars and attacking the law enforcers, they've officially stooped to the level of animals, and I say it's open season.

[abijnk]

Now wait a minute, I am confused... :confused:

We've got two completely different stories and mindsets going on here.

1) The kid threw a water bottle at a cop and the cop returned at a later time and shot the kid.

2) The kid threw a molotov cocktail at the cop and was killed when the warning shot ricocheted off of something.

Those are two very very different scenarios. Could we get the facts straight before trying to discuss this?

[Peterkro]

They didn't even shoot at him directly, he was killed by a ricochet from a warning shot.

I'm all for peaceful protests, but the instant these anarchist swine start destroying property, smashing windows, torching cars and attacking the law enforcers, they've officially stooped to the level of animals, and I say it's open season.

It was a 500ml plastic water bottle with water in it. You think drawing a gun and firing it is a reasonable way to deal with a verbal disagreement with teenagers. If you take a quick look at Greek history you'll see why the police are looked on with suspicion by the majority of Greeks. It appears you are more concerned with property than the death of a innocent fifteen year old at the hands of the police force. Because someone is protesting in the streets it doesn't make them a Anarchist,there is wide spread support for the angry protests from all ages and maybe surprisingly from most parts of the political spectrum.If you believe the reporting from the likes of the BBC I'm afraid your having the wool pulled over your eyes,for instance all this is being caused by around 2000 "hard core" anarchists and yet their own cameras shows 10's of thousands taking part all over Greece.I really can't be bothered to explain this but Anarchism is a political philosophy with a long history. To blame a spontaneous reaction by a huge number of people on Anarchists is ridiculous.I wish they were all Anarchists but the truth is they're not.

The gratuitous insult about swine is neither fair to me as a Anarchist or to the animal.

[Dont Hurt Me]

A reflection of mankind, no wonder ET wants nothing to do with us except a occasional fly by or blood sample. lets face it human kind sucks. We have been killing each other since day one, whats new?

[Counterfit]

It was a 500ml plastic water bottle with water in it.
Were you there? Did you personally verify what the bottle was filled with?
It appears you are more concerned with property than the death of a innocent fifteen year old at the hands of the police force.
Let's leave that for the courts to decide.
Could we get the facts straight before trying to discuss this?

Of course not, because all police, everywhere, are pigs. :rolleyes:



At least in the US we wait for a verdict before rioting.

[rhsgolfer33]

It appears you are more concerned with property than the death of a innocent fifteen year old at the hands of the police force. Because someone is protesting in the streets it doesn't make them a Anarchist,there is wide spread support for the angry protests from all ages and maybe surprisingly from most parts of the political spectrum.If you believe the reporting from the likes of the BBC I'm afraid your having the wool pulled over your eyes,for instance all this is being caused by around 2000 "hard core" anarchists and yet their own cameras shows 10's of thousands taking part all over Greece.I really can't be bothered to explain this but Anarchism is a political philosophy with a long history. To blame a spontaneous reaction by a huge number of people on Anarchists is ridiculous.I wish they were all Anarchists but the truth is they're not.

The gratuitous insult about swine is neither fair to me as a Anarchist or to the animal.

Whoa there, first off there is a huge difference between protesting and a riot. Rioting and destruction makes you no different than that police officer. Hurling petrol bombs at riot officers is outrageous, there are far better ways to make your point than violence. Secondly, I think most people throughout the world are more inclined to believe the BBCs news-reports than word of mouth over the internet. While there are a good amount (maybe up to 1000 taking place in the destruction) of people protesting violently in the videos I have severe doubts that there is widespread support among the general population for the violence and destruction taking place. Does the general population support protesting the killing of the 15 year old? Probably Do they support the destruction these people are causing? Very doubtful.

It would be great if people would wait for the judicial system to fail before they riot. At least the L.A. riots occurred after a bad verdict.

I just hope that the people that are doing this are realizing they are doing potential harm to their economy. Greece depends a lot on tourism, and quite a few people will consider other destinations if Greece proves prone to riots. Its a shame really, Athens is a great city and Greece is a beautiful country. Too bad some people have no control over themselves.

[CalBoy]

Now wait a minute, I am confused... :confused:

We've got two completely different stories and mindsets going on here.

1) The kid threw a water bottle at a cop and the cop returned at a later time and shot the kid.

2) The kid threw a molotov cocktail at the cop and was killed when the warning shot ricocheted off of something.

Those are two very very different scenarios. Could we get the facts straight before trying to discuss this?

From what I know, it's a hybrid situation.

The kid threw the water bottle (and it was NOT a molotov cocktail), and the cop shot back immediately.

I also read that the cop was indicted and held responsible. If that's true, then the riots are way out of line. Due process stands for everyone, including a police officer.

[dsnort]

I read on the blogs that the shooting incident was just the spark, and that the riots are truly a symptom of the worsening economic situation in Greece. Anyone know anything more? Here's a link to an article.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ambrose_evans-pritchard/blog/2008/12/10/greek_fighting_the_eurozones_weakest_link_starts_to_crack

[Anuba]

It was a 500ml plastic water bottle with water in it. You think drawing a gun and firing it is a reasonable way to deal with a verbal disagreement with teenagers.
If they are violent? Absolutely.

If you take a quick look at Greek history you'll see why the police are looked on with suspicion by the majority of Greeks.
I don't care.

It appears you are more concerned with property than the death of a innocent fifteen year old at the hands of the police force.
Innocent of what? Was he a hapless bystander who got caught in the crossfire? Mmmkay.

No, my point isn't that property is worth more than lives. My point is that if a person is so far gone mentally that he takes the right to destroy valuable property that isn't his own, he or she should be separated from the gene pool and discarded.

[it5five]

At least in the US we wait for a verdict before rioting.

People in the US riot?

Anyway, all my support for the Greek rioters. It seems as though the killing was just one small piece of the problem; Conservative economic policies and widening income gap appears to be the major thing upsetting most people. If only we had riots regarding those two issues in this country.

[CalBoy]

Anyway, all my support for the Greek rioters. It seems as though the killing was just one small piece of the problem; Conservative economic policies and widening income gap appears to be the major thing upsetting most people. If only we had riots regarding those two issues in this country.

Are riots the answer?

Riots destroy the property of innocent people, harm innocent people, and damage the political process because they challenge the legitimacy of republican governance.

While this officer's conduct seems to have ignited long standing anger in Greece, why weren't these issues addressed via the political process? That's where the real fault is, and riots don't correct that, they only make things worse.

[leekohler]

While this certainly isn't universally true, most of the Greeks I've known have been very demonstrative and overly emotional. In college I was in a band with a Greek guy. I went to his family's place for Thanksgiving one year and it was like a war zone in that house. Arguments constantly at the dinner table til the mother ended up running upstairs crying. I said, "Umm..I should probably go...". They looked surprised, "Oh no! We haven't had dessert yet. Why would you want to leave?" They were completely puzzled. seriously. :eek:

That said, I can imagine what that cop did was to basically set off a nuclear bomb.

[Anuba]

While this certainly isn't universally true, most of the Greeks I've known have been very demonstrative and overly emotional. In college I was in a band with a Greek guy. I went to his family's place for Thanksgiving one year and it was like a war zone in that house. Arguments constantly at the dinner table til the mother ended up running upstairs crying. I said, "Umm..I should probably go...". They looked surprised, "Oh no! We haven't had dessert yet. Why would you want to leave?" They were completely puzzled. seriously. :eek:

That said, I can imagine what that cop did was to basically set off a nuclear bomb.
Yeah, southern Europeans have emotions running wild up to HERE. I remember reading some article about a Scorcese film that was shot in Italy (I think it was Gangs of New York, but I'm not sure) that he had problems with the extras -- who were italians -- because they were all gesticulating madly and their body language was so over the top that suspension of disbelief went out the window. He had to instruct them to converse in a stiffer manner and they eventually pulled it off, but at great difficulty.

[it5five]

Are riots the answer?

Riots destroy the property of innocent people, harm innocent people, and damage the political process because they challenge the legitimacy of republican governance.

While this officer's conduct seems to have ignited long standing anger in Greece, why weren't these issues addressed via the political process? That's where the real fault is, and riots don't correct that, they only make things worse.

You think the political process works? Look at our country. The political process is completely self serving and only benefits those already in power/the rich. Riots raise awareness and create action, and can be good when used wisely.

[leekohler]

Yeah, southern Europeans have emotions running wild up to HERE. I remember reading some article about a Scorcese film that was shot in Italy (I think it was Gangs of New York, but I'm not sure) that he had problems with the extras -- who were italians -- because they were all gesticulating madly and their body language was so over the top that suspension of disbelief went out the window. He had to instruct them to converse in a stiffer manner and they eventually pulled it off, but at great difficulty.

It's a little crazy. :)

[skunk]

If they are violent? Absolutely.Really? You are in favour of killing argumentative teenagers? Growing up in your household must be a risky business.

[EricNau]

You think the political process works? Look at our country. The political process is completely self serving and only benefits those already in power/the rich. Riots raise awareness and create action, and can be good when used wisely.
There's a huge difference between peaceful protests and riots, the latter of which should not be tolerated in any manner. Riots accomplish the exact opposite of their intentions; they're nothing short of barbaric.

Riots, by their very definition, are not and cannot be good.

[Anuba]

Really? You are in favour of killing argumentative teenagers? Growing up in your household must be a risky business.
There are some not-so-subtle differences between...

A) Killing and pulling a gun (I was in favor of the latter),

B) A rabid, rioting crowd throwing rocks and molotov cocktails and torching cars, and a grumpy 13-year-old who doesn't want to do his homework.

[CalBoy]

You think the political process works? Look at our country. The political process is completely self serving and only benefits those already in power/the rich. Riots raise awareness and create action, and can be good when used wisely.

You can protest if you think the political process isn't working. Write letters, organize, run for office.

The answer isn't to burn down buildings, throw projectiles at windows, and bring an end to civil order. When you do that, you're trampling on the rights of everyone who doesn't want to riot. That isn't right.
There are some not-so-subtle differences between...

A) Killing and pulling a gun (I was in favor of the latter),

Sort of makes me wonder: was the officer shooting to kill? I know it was dark and pistols are notoriously inaccurate, but the question is still out there. Given Greece's history of police brutality and corruption, it wouldn't surprise me if the officer was shooting to kill.

More to the point: is it approriate to draw arms when you have a teenager going a little off the deep end? Can he not be tased/stunned? Why are we so willing to let the police use lethal force when the situation is not lethal?

[Counterfit]

Can he not be tased/stunned?

But, but, but, Tasers aren't safe*!





*: When compared to doing nothing. They're quite a bit safer than FMJ (or whatever is standard issue for Greek Police).

[j26]

The answer isn't to burn down buildings, throw projectiles at windows, and bring an end to civil order.

Sometimes it is - there was a lot of money poured into Brixton after the race riots in the eighties, for example, and a lot more thought was put into policing and engaging the community.

Riots clearly show a government how precarious its power actually is and change tends to follow. Sometimes the only voice people have is to forcibly remind governments. The middle class Letter to the Times concept doesn't work for everyone.

[skunk]

Sometimes it is Indeed so. Some governments are very good at not listening until their own livelihood is on the line. There is usually a period of several years between elections during which those in power can get away with almost anything.

[CalBoy]

Sometimes it is

Ultimately there is always a better option.

Riots seem to be the more convenient and easier to initiate option, but not the option that will lead to long term democratic stability.

When people don't have respect for the process (ie, they riot), they essentially give up any claims of peaceful transfers of power and the democratic process itself. Then, when the rioters have won themselves a new government, why should the new "out" group have any reason not to riot at their actions? It becomes a never ending cycle.

[synth3tik]

They didn't even shoot at him directly, he was killed by a ricochet from a warning shot.


Not from what eyewitnesses saw. They saw the office point directly at the kid.

[skunk]

Riots seem to be the more convenient and easier to initiate option, but not the option that will lead to long term democratic stability. It hasn't been so very long since Greece was ruled by a junta of military men, and before that by a king, a sultan, and an emperor. As the inventors of democracy, I think we can cut the Greeks some slack when it comes to working through the various options available to them.

[j26]

Ultimately there is always a better option.


I believe your founding fathers might disagree with you.

[EricNau]

I believe your founding fathers might disagree with you.
Let's ask them, shall we?

The First Amendment, United States Constitution (adopted 1791): "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


Violent riots? I don't think so.

[j26]

Let's ask them, shall we?

The First Amendment, United States Constitution (adopted 1791): "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


Violent riots? I don't think so.

Very peaceful (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_war_of_independence). Look at actions, not words :rolleyes:

[CalBoy]

It hasn't been so very long since Greece was ruled by a junta of military men, and before that by a king, a sultan, and an emperor. As the inventors of democracy, I think we can cut the Greeks some slack when it comes to working through the various options available to them.

They may have invented democracy, but they have certainly failed in its implementation.

If they feel that a valid option before them is the willful destruction of property and reckless violence, then I won't cut them any slack.
I believe your founding fathers might disagree with you.

Not really. Jefferson was the only founder who thought revolutions of the bloody variety could be useful, and it wasn't a majority view held by most of the early leaders.

The Federalists (led by Washington, Adams, and Hamilton) believed in preserving law and order. In fact, chaos was one of the reasons why the Constitutional Convention was held to begin with; the Articles of Confederation had allowed too much rioting and random destruction.

Very peaceful (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_war_of_independence). Look at actions, not words :rolleyes:

You do realize that they tried the peaceful alternative first right? The Olive Branch Petition fell on deaf ears in both Parliament and before the Crown. At that point, it's an occupation force, not a society trying to maintain order.

Now if the Greeks were trying to expel the Romans or the Persians or some other invader and felt the need to resort to violence, you might have a point. For now, they are destroying their own property and undermining the meaning of their own society.

[Peterkro]

A somewhat more balanced article than the usual mass media hysteria:

Indy (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-concessions-fail-to-stop-the-riots-1066102.html)

[Peterkro]

Korkoneas guilty of murder the other cop of complicity.