PDA

View Full Version : Motorola 1.5GHz G4... G4 PowerBooks?


MacRumors
Feb 23, 2004, 10:31 AM
TheRegister.co.uk (http://www.theregister.com/content/39/35749.html) reports on an updated PowerPC MPC7447 from Motorola.

The updated version of the chip (7447A) runs at 1.5GHz. The previous version of the 7447 processor is currently being used in Apple's PowerBooks.

TheRegister speculates that this may power an updated G4 PowerBook revision while we wait for the G5 PowerBook. Previous comments (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031103185309.shtml) by Apple execs have noted that "it's going to be a while" (stated in Nov 2003) before the G5 makes it into a PowerBook.

NicoMan
Feb 23, 2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Macrumors
TheRegister.co.uk (http://www.theregister.com/content/39/35749.html) reports on an updated PowerPC MPC7447 from Motorola.

The updated version of the chip (7447A) runs at 1.5GHz. The previous version of the 7447 processor is currently being used in Apple's PowerBooks.

TheRegister speculates that this may power an updated G4 PowerBook revision while we wait for the G5 PowerBook. Previous comments (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031103185309.shtml) by Apple execs have noted that "it's going to be a while" (stated in Nov 2003) before the G5 makes it into a PowerBook.

Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!.....

starflyer
Feb 23, 2004, 10:34 AM
Ho Humm....give me a G3 with Altivec

Photorun
Feb 23, 2004, 10:37 AM
What in the... this thing super overclocked then from 1.42 GHz? The article was was vague, but then again, it's speculation only. And I second just give us the G3 from IBM with altivec, this moto thing has dragged on long enough.

skinEman23
Feb 23, 2004, 10:37 AM
Well, like I've said all along, there will be an update or price drop before the G5s come to the PB line. I'm hoping that since this update would be minimal they will include a price drop with it.

Tiauguinho
Feb 23, 2004, 10:37 AM
Yay... another rev. of the Powerbook with a G4 :( :D

Ja Di ksw
Feb 23, 2004, 10:37 AM
Joy, and I, like so many other hopeless fools out there, am waiting for the G5 in a pb before I buy one. Mainly b/c, while a laptop would be nice, I don't really need one. I figure by the time a G5 pb comes out, though, I'll need a new computer, and can use it to replace my 450 G4 as well.

ThomasJefferson
Feb 23, 2004, 10:39 AM
This, I think, was expected by all rational organic life forms - excepting the mac addicted.

Oh well, I really don't like to buy Rev 1 products. I may break down and buy. Wonder how hot this processor is going to get? At what temp do we melt?

IndyGopher
Feb 23, 2004, 10:39 AM
The G3 being the noted exception, it has always taken quite a while for a new generation of chips to make it into the Powerbooks. So long, in fact, that the 604 NEVER made it into a powerbook. There will be G5 powerbooks, but it will be another 9 months to a year. I don't like it either, but it really is time to accept it.

ThomasJefferson
Feb 23, 2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by IndyGopher
There will be G5 powerbooks, but it will be another 9 months to a year. I don't like it either, but it really is time to accept it.

DITTO

TEG
Feb 23, 2004, 10:42 AM
Powerbook updates Tuesday.

C'mon someone had to say it...

TEG

chazmox
Feb 23, 2004, 10:43 AM
With the powertune 970's shipping, I don't see the justification of going to another rev. from Motorola. The G4's cost more, don't perform better, and powertune adds the true power scalability.

spencecb
Feb 23, 2004, 10:43 AM
Stupid Moto...can't even design a new chip...just keeps overclocking and overclocking....lol, I wonder if they ever came out with a new G4 after the original, or if it is just a super overclocked 400 MHz G4...j/k

nighthawk
Feb 23, 2004, 10:43 AM
How can the G4 at 1.5 GHz be any cooler than the G5 at 1.5 GHz? It just does not make sense!!

I realize that the chipset also produces a lot of heat, but even if it was double the G4 chipset, the Powertune technology and other benefits of the G5 should make up for it.

dxp4acu
Feb 23, 2004, 10:45 AM
This was interesting until I saw it was from the Register. The register has NEVER EVER gotten any motorola/G4 speculation correct. Remember their g5 stories?? Ridiculous!!!

arn
Feb 23, 2004, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by chazmox
With the powertune 970's shipping, I don't see the justification of going to another rev. from Motorola. The G4's cost more, don't perform better, and powertune adds the true power scalability.

I'm not sure where you got that the G4s cost more... it's probably not true.

arn

nighthawk
Feb 23, 2004, 10:46 AM
On the other hand, if these chips include the 1 MB L3 cache, then they will be better than what is currently shipping in the Powerbooks.

Bear
Feb 23, 2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Photorun
What in the... this thing super overclocked then from 1.42 GHz? The article was was vague, but then again, it's speculation only. And I second just give us the G3 from IBM with altivec, this moto thing has dragged on long enough. On the article itself, I have no opinion.

your overclokcing comment, why do you and a whole hoard of other people insist that all the Motorola G4s above 1GHz are overclocked?

KLFloyd
Feb 23, 2004, 10:48 AM
I'm in a position where I'm going to HAVE to buy a new 12" laptop sometime in the next 6-8 months. I'm starting grad school in August and my 15" PB is on it's last legs. I'm probably not going to have the $ to buy a G5 if they come out in that time frame, but maybe I can get a G4 on close out?

Whatever happens, I hope it happens fast.

hvfsl
Feb 23, 2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by NicoMan
Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!.....

Exaclty, I have money that is burning a hole in my bank account, waiting for a PB G5.

I hope these G4 chips will just be used in the updated iBooks and the PBs have G5s.

Originally posted by nighthawk
How can the G4 at 1.5 GHz be any cooler than the G5 at 1.5 GHz? It just does not make sense!!

I realize that the chipset also produces a lot of heat, but even if it was double the G4 chipset, the Powertune technology and other benefits of the G5 should make up for it.

The G5 has longer pipelines than the G4 (more pipelines makes it easier to increase the Ghz, like with the P4). But longer pipleines also generate more heat.

But I do agree, the G5 is on 0.09nm while the G4 is on 0.13nm, so the G5 should generate less heat.

RHutch
Feb 23, 2004, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by nighthawk
On the other hand, if these chips include the 1 MB L3 cache, then they will be better than what is currently shipping in the Powerbooks.

I didn't think that these chips could support L3 cache. Can someone say for sure?

andyduncan
Feb 23, 2004, 10:53 AM
6 months, 90 Mhz, 2 watts.

Good to see MSG being productive.

Apart from IBMs numbers, how do these chips REALLY compare to the 970fx? If the numbers quoted by IBM are based on having PowerTune turned ON, and these numbers are BEFORE the speedstep tech is used, then are the G4s actually lower power in the real world?

a17inchFuture
Feb 23, 2004, 11:02 AM
There will be G5 powerbooks, but it will be another 9 months to a year. I don't like it either, but it really is time to accept it.

I completely disagree with that. In fact, I would be willing to bet my left testicle that you are not only wrong, but mislead in your beliefs.

9 months to a year when they already have the chip (aka the BIG thing that was holding up the G5 powerbooks)? Are you crazy? Without a doubt, pbook g5 will not arrive any later than september, and thats a bit slow if you ask me.

As far as this rumor is concerned, I also dont think it makes sense to overclock a g4 to make it 1.5, when the g5 processor runs much cooler at the same speed. Especially when their consumers are so obviously ready for the G5. Apple has made its business out of pleasing consumers, so I don't think it will be G4 revisions. Also, as far as I am concerned, if someone asked me when powerbooks were due in November, and I thought they were going to be released in June, I would also say a long time. And as many people on these boards have pointed out, if anyone at apple said "we have g5 pbooks coming out in may", then the entire g4 pbook line would sufer huge sales loss up until that point. So, as far as I am concerned, that means nothing.

your overclokcing comment, why do you and a whole hoard of other people insist that all the Motorola G4s above 1GHz are overclocked?

Okay, I'll tell you why everyone here says they are overclocked at 1.5: it was said because ITS TRUE! its just a fact, jack. Anyone who has been paying attention to Apple knows that. Just like anyone who has been following baseball would know that A-rod is now a yank (blech!) So, we "insist", because we all know it to be a fact.

Ja Di ksw
Feb 23, 2004, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by hvfsl
The G5 has longer pipelines than the G4 (more pipelines makes it easier to increase the Ghz, like with the P4). But longer pipleines also generate more heat.


crud, I didn't know they had that. How close is it now to the P4? What I mean is, before, you would take a mac's processor's speed and times it by 1.5-2 to get a window' prcessor's speed (at least, had always heard it was that, b/c of the pipelines). What is it now?

johnnyjibbs
Feb 23, 2004, 11:08 AM
Like it or lump it, I think this chip will be Apple's choice. The article is vague and I'm not cetain from it whether we'd be gettings 1.42 or 1.5 GHz G4s (overclocked?). The extra power savings aren't that good but would allow the 12" PB to move to 1.25GHz as I said in the other thread. It will also allow time for IBM to make enough 90nm G5s (and thus allow for new Power Macs now, not in 3 months due to shipping delay).

But Q2 or Q3 delivery?

This will then allow the iBooks to move up to the 7447 rev A processors I guess and then onto these once the PowerBooks do finally go G5.

It's looking more and more like Steve meant every word of that "we'd like to have PowerBook G5s by the end of next year [2004]"

mrsebastian
Feb 23, 2004, 11:08 AM
this blows. there will be atleast one more g4 upgrade in the pb line, if not two. which in itself is pretty stupid, because in day-to-day usage, i'd never know the performance difference from 1.33 to 1.5 ghz, but they gotta have upgrades for sales. just gimmie a g5 pb 17... please.

Photorun
Feb 23, 2004, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Bear
your overclokcing comment, why do you and a whole hoard of other people insist that all the Motorola G4s above 1GHz are overclocked?

Because Apple/Moto has had to do this on a few of the 74xx chips, the 1.42 G4 PM was actually widely known to be a 1.25 overclocked... that IS a fact jack. There was, as I recall, two others, I think the 533 was a 500 and the 733 was a (forgets). Admittedly, it's not like every G4 was overclocked, but certain ones, and the last G4 before the G5 was definitely overclocked for the numbers.

But you're right, why get worked up over it, all those piece of sh** chips that have come out of Intel are really overclocked pieces of garbage, sucking the life out of outdated architecture to fulfill the MHz myth peecee chumps who brag about getting a 3.47 chip over 3.45 and "oh it's so much faster." Morons.

ftaok
Feb 23, 2004, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by arn
I'm not sure where you got that the G4s cost more... it's probably not true.

arn According to Motorola, 1.42ghz 7447A chips will cost $245 each (in quantities of 10,000). Anyone know how much G5's cost?

Motorola Press Release (http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,,3861_3238_23,00.html)

invaLPsion
Feb 23, 2004, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by andyduncan
6 months, 90 Mhz, 2 watts.

Good to see MSG being productive.

Apart from IBMs numbers, how do these chips REALLY compare to the 970fx? If the numbers quoted by IBM are based on having PowerTune turned ON, and these numbers are BEFORE the speedstep tech is used, then are the G4s actually lower power in the real world?

90 MHz? The current powerbooks top out at 1.33GHz. That is an upgrade of 167MHz. Be happy with the new G4 powerbooks. If they include L3 cache they will be a nice improvement over the current models. I'm willing to bet they'll probably be cheaper than the current models. Also that the high end 17 and 15 inch will have the Ati Mobility Radeon 9700.

12inch: $1499 and $1699 (1.25GHZ)
15inch:$1799 and $2399 (1.33 and 1.5GHz)
17inch:$2699 (1.5Ghz)

You heard it first.

groov'
Feb 23, 2004, 11:12 AM
Buy this offer for 1299 euros (19% tax included) if you live in Europe and it will ease the waiting for the G5 PB.

Can't beat it...


Specifications: (sorry, it's dutch but simple to understand I guess?
_______________ ______________________________________
- Processor - AMD Athlon (tm)XP-M 2600+(47 Watt)
-Beeldscherm - 15,4 inch TFT W-XGA Kleuren scherm 1280 x 800 px
- 16:10 voor geoptimaliseerd DVD af te spelen
- Accu - Hoog vermogen Lithium-ion 12 cel 6600 mA
- Floppy drive - Geen
- Grafische Chipset - ATI Mobility Radeon IPG 320M met max 128 MB shared DDR-Ram
- Harde schijf - 60 GB 2.5 inch IDE HDD 4200 rpm
- Optical Drive - Supercombo drive Pioneer (2 x DVD-R,1 x DVD-RW,2 x DVD+R,
- 1 x DVD+RW, 8 x DVD lezen,10 x CD-RW,16 x CD-R,24 x CD lezen)
- Aansluit- - 3 x USB 2.0,1x serieel,1 x VGA-out,1 x TV-out,
- options included - 1 x infrarood,1 x Firewire IEEE 1394,1 x LAN (RJ45),1 x modem (RJ11),
- 1 x microphone-in,1 x 6 channel audio out met S/P-DIF
- Audio - 16 bit geluidschip met optische digitale uitgang (S/P-DIF),
- 2 ge´ntegreerde speakers
- Modem - Intern 56 K.V90 modem
- Wireless lan - 802.11G met een maximale snelheid van 54 Mbit/s
- IEEE firewire Aansluiting op moederbord
- LAN - 10/100 Mbit snel Ethernet LAN port
- Intern geheugen - 512 MB DDR-RAM,2 x 256 MB (uitbreidbaar tot 1024 MB)
- Toetsenbord - Ge´ntegreerde touchpad met 2 muis knoppen,
- 2 multimedia sneltoetsen en een scroll toets
- Overig - incl. AV adapter
- Gewicht - 2.8 kg incl. batterij
- Afmetingen - L x B x H,353 x 254 x 33 mm
- Operating System - Microsoft (r)Windows (r)XP Home versie SP1 NL Recovery Versie,
- voorge´nstalleerd en op CD-Rom
- Office Software -Microsoft (r)Works (r)7.0 OEM versie
- Overige Software -Power Cinema Suite OEM versie inclusief:
* CyberLink PowerDirector PRO 2.0
* CyberLink PowerDVD XP 4.0
* CyberLink MediaShow
* CyberLink VideoLive Mail 4
* Music Match Jukebox
- Pinnacle Instant Copy OEM versie,
- Ahead Nero Burning Rom 6xxx OEM versie
- Alle software is voorge´nstalleerd en op CD-Rom

- Garantie* - 24 maanden, aan huis pick-up en return (bij hardware problemen)

Bij alle aanbiedingen geldt: zolang de voorraad strekt. Druk- en zetfouten en afwijkingen in afbeeldingen voorbehouden. De prijs is inclusief BTW.

more information: http://www.ah.nl/nieuws.jsp?id=240374

virividox
Feb 23, 2004, 11:21 AM
Doh no more g4 powerbooks please. id rather wait a couple more months for the g5 then get another g4, g4 are great, but commonnnnnn

johnnyjibbs
Feb 23, 2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by hvfsl
The G5 has longer pipelines than the G4 (more pipelines makes it easier to increase the Ghz, like with the P4). But longer pipleines also generate more heat.
And thus the G4 is more powerful, clock for clock, than the G5. This is why, despite much better FSB, architecture and the rest, a G5 1.2GHz would not be as good as a 1.5GHz G4 in a PowerBook, power wise. The only advantage would be a marketing one.

Now, however, with the 970FX, we are starting to see the G5 at clockspeeds of around 2GHz being more viable in a PowerBook. However, supply issues and other things may also influence when the PB goes G5.

And, I'm afraid these G4 chips have just surfaced at the right time for Apple, or the wrong time for everyone else.

achmafooma
Feb 23, 2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by a17inchFuture
I completely disagree with that. In fact, I would be willing to bet my left testicle that you are not only wrong, but mislead in your beliefs.

Come on, let's try to be civil here.

I, for one, certainly wish the PowerBook G5s would come out soon. But I'm not too optimistic about it.

Chew on this: The Power Mac G4 was introduced in September of 1999. The PowerBook G4 didn't come out until January of 2001. That's sixteen months lag (if my math is right) between the processor coming out in a desktop and it finally making it into a notebook. (I got the dates from Apple-History.com)

I'm no expert, I wasn't even a Mac user until August 2001 so I wasn't following these things then, but long delays between desktops and notebooks with a new processor is not unheard of or unreasonable.

I seem to recall that it took a while to get Pentium 4's into notebooks too.

Anything is possible ... but it's certainly reasonable for somebody to assume it might still be a while before we have our PowerBook G5s.

andyduncan
Feb 23, 2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by invaLPsion
90 MHz? The current powerbooks top out at 1.33GHz. That is an upgrade of 167MHz. Be happy with the new G4 powerbooks. If they include L# cache they will be a nice improvement over the current models. I'm willing to be they'll probably be cheaper than the current models.

12inch: $1499 and $1699 (1.25GHZ)
15inch:$1799 and $2399 (1.33 and 1.5GHz)
17inch:$2699 (1.5Ghz)

You heard it first.

Rampant speculation. And 1.42GHz - 1.33GHz is 90mhz. They didn't list a wattage for a 1.5, which is why I compared the 1.42 and 1.33. Actually, since I posted it, the reg has updated their story with a 20w figure for the 1.42, making it 6months, 90mhz and 1.3w.

Even at 1.5ghz, that's only a 13% improvement, and a likely increase in wattage as well. I guess it's better than 50mhz over 18 months like MSG used to pull, but whatever.

Where do you come up with the idea they'll have L3 cache anyway? A previous post? It's a 7447 variant after all.

rdowns
Feb 23, 2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by starflyer
Ho Humm....give me a G3 with Altivec

Have we even seen real evidence that this chip exists or is it s figment of MR collective imagination?

Frobozz
Feb 23, 2004, 11:32 AM
It appears that the Register is adding pure speculation into the mix... as usual. They state that the new, lower power G4 will run at up to 1.5 Ghz... and that could give Apple more time to develop the G5 by adding one last G4 revision.

Nowhere does it state this is likely. It simply states that Apple could revamp one last time with a G4 if they chose to. They also mention that this chip will be in volume production in Q2 or Q3. Add it all up, and I think it's clear that the PowerBook G5 is as likely, based on this information, as a G4.

I think Apple's PowerBook line is pretty good. What can I say.

invaLPsion
Feb 23, 2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by andyduncan
Rampant speculation. And 1.42GHz - 1.33GHz is 90mhz. They didn't list a wattage for a 1.5, which is why I compared the 1.42 and 1.33. Actually, since I posted it, the reg has updated their story with a 20w figure for the 1.42, making it 6months, 90mhz and 1.3w.

Even at 1.5ghz, that's only a 13% improvement, and a likely increase in wattage as well. I guess it's better than 50mhz over 18 months like MSG used to pull, but whatever.

Where do you come up with the idea they'll have L3 cache anyway? A previous post? It's a 7447 variant after all.

Well we aren't going to see G5 powerbooks for sure this update. A powerbook update with those speeds and prices should be very popular with consumers. Except for the people who wanted G5 powerbooks on Macrumors.

In addition, I believe that we may not only see 1.5Ghz, but 1.533 GHz. That's a 200 mhz update. That is based on sources from MacOSRumors that predict a G4 update to the powerbooks within the next few weeks.

dxp4acu
Feb 23, 2004, 11:35 AM
show me one article where the register has gotten something right between apple and motorola. I don't think one exists...

Some_Big_Spoon
Feb 23, 2004, 11:36 AM
I'd like to have the G5 PB for the FSB and added memory.. a 1GHz G5 PB with 4 GB of memory would be pretty useful to me. A 12" with 1.25GB? that's just silly. The perm 256 on the board is silly. At least make it removable so i can get the full 2GB in there..

And please keep the "Just get the 17" dude!" posts. I want portability and power. If i have the money to spend, why shouldn't I be able to have that?? There are many of us that get the 12" because we actually use it as it was inteneted, to travel with, not because of cost considerations.

hvfsl
Feb 23, 2004, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
And thus the G4 is more powerful, clock for clock, than the G5. This is why, despite much better FSB, architecture and the rest, a G5 1.2GHz would not be as good as a 1.5GHz G4 in a PowerBook, power wise. The only advantage would be a marketing one.

Now, however, with the 970FX, we are starting to see the G5 at clockspeeds of around 2GHz being more viable in a PowerBook. However, supply issues and other things may also influence when the PB goes G5.

And, I'm afraid these G4 chips have just surfaced at the right time for Apple, or the wrong time for everyone else.

But the G5 makes up for its bigger number of pipelines by having a much fast bus and other optimisations.

And for anyone that wants to know:
Old P4 (upto 3.2Ghz) 20 pipelines
New P4 (prescott) 30 pipelines
AMD 64 10 pipelines
G4 7-10 pipelines (depending on type of G4)
G5 12 pipelines

agreenster
Feb 23, 2004, 12:05 PM
This rumor makes sense. Like it or not, G5 Powerbooks are a long ways off.

It actually kind of suprises me that people are expecting G5PB's so soon after the original G5 PowerMac was announced back in August. Its barely been 6 months! Putting a hot chip like the G5 into a small form factor like a PowerBook aint an easy task.

I'll take a 1.5 ghz G4 Powerbook. Its 50% faster than mine.

Despite the fantastic new relationship with IBM, dont forget that Apple is still Apple. ie: It takes a long time for them to release a new chip into a portable. Call it quality, call it laziness, whichever you prefer. But thats the way it is. They dont just slap stuff together to get it to market as fast as possible. They take their time, and do it right.

dongmin
Feb 23, 2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by KLFloyd
I'm in a position where I'm going to HAVE to buy a new 12" laptop sometime in the next 6-8 months. I'm starting grad school in August and my 15" PB is on it's last legs. I'm probably not going to have the $ to buy a G5 if they come out in that time frame, but maybe I can get a G4 on close out?

Whatever happens, I hope it happens fast. OT: Why don't you get the basic iBook? You get a lot of computer for a grand. Use it for 12-18 months, then sell it and get the rev. B G5 Powerbooks.

Also, even if the G5 is coming to the PB, I don't see it fitting into the 12" form factor any time soon.

MikeAtari
Feb 23, 2004, 12:08 PM
I dare say the Register has never been right with Apple news or rumors. You have to wonder what their motivation is .

If VIA can produce a 64 bit motherboard,
then of course Apple can. But,what's interesting with AMD 64 bit laptops is the HUGE heat sink / fan / ducting going on.
And the short battery life.

http://www.ixbt-labs.com/articles2/amd-athlon64-m/index.html

Take a look at the pics.

I really think Apple should produce Both G4 and G5 laptops. I use my laptop mostly on my desk so I wouldn't mind a G5 now with a short battery life. For those that would the G4 would be more suitable.

- What are the cooling requirements of the AMD64 verses the 970?
- The 7447 doesn't support an L3 cache.
- AMD has a 1mb L2 cache, what about the 970?

greenstork
Feb 23, 2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by a17inchFuture
I completely disagree with that. In fact, I would be willing to bet my left testicle that you are not only wrong, but mislead in your beliefs.

9 months to a year when they already have the chip (aka the BIG thing that was holding up the G5 powerbooks)? Are you crazy? Without a doubt, pbook g5 will not arrive any later than september, and thats a bit slow if you ask me.

As far as this rumor is concerned, I also dont think it makes sense to overclock a g4 to make it 1.5, when the g5 processor runs much cooler at the same speed. Especially when their consumers are so obviously ready for the G5. Apple has made its business out of pleasing consumers, so I don't think it will be G4 revisions. Also, as far as I am concerned, if someone asked me when powerbooks were due in November, and I thought they were going to be released in June, I would also say a long time. And as many people on these boards have pointed out, if anyone at apple said "we have g5 pbooks coming out in may", then the entire g4 pbook line would sufer huge sales loss up until that point. So, as far as I am concerned, that means nothing.



Okay, I'll tell you why everyone here says they are overclocked at 1.5: it was said because ITS TRUE! its just a fact, jack. Anyone who has been paying attention to Apple knows that. Just like anyone who has been following baseball would know that A-rod is now a yank (blech!) So, we "insist", because we all know it to be a fact.

Hope you're not too attached to that left testicle. You state all your points with such confidence, but in reality, you have no idea. None of us do.

I believe the next Powerbook revision will include a ramped up G3 with AltiVec, but I'm not betting any testicles on it.

edit: Also, I'm sorry to say that you don't really understand the meaning of overclocked. A chip, when it is produced, is tested and rated at a certain speed. Newer chips commonly don't have all the kinks worked out in the production process and are rated accordingly. As the production line matures, small improvements are made and the results are chips classified to run at a higher speed. So while you think it is overclocked, you're wrong. Just because it keeps getting hotter and hotter doesn't mean it's overclocked, it just means it's rated higher. It may just be that it was poorly designed to begin with but I just don't know enough to say.

gwuMACaddict
Feb 23, 2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by andyduncan
6 months, 90 Mhz, 2 watts.

Good to see MSG being productive.


hehehe ;) i was thinking the same thing... this is almost a record for them :D

MikeAtari
Feb 23, 2004, 12:12 PM
Wow. It consumes 85 watts, in a Laptop!
Is that a record or what?

It seems to me Apple should be able to come up with Some cooling solution for a G5 Now.

agreenster
Feb 23, 2004, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
If i have the money to spend, why shouldn't I be able to have that??

Umm, because the technology isnt quite there yet. I think thats what everyone here is forgetting.

Im glad you have the money to spend (because Im sure you're the only one) but if Apple is still working the bugs out, you aint gettin' it.

I hate it how everyone assumes that Apple has a warehouse full of G5 powerbooks, and just arent releasing them until the market is ready, or G4 Powerbook supplies have diminished. Truth is, there's probably only a handful of PBG5's at Cupertino, still in development stages, if that even. Trust me, they know better than you that people are willing to spend money on G5 Powerbooks, and they are working round the clock to get them ready.

So chill.

ZildjianKX
Feb 23, 2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by hvfsl
But the G5 makes up for its bigger number of pipelines by having a much fast bus and other optimisations.

And for anyone that wants to know:
Old P4 (upto 3.2Ghz) 20 pipelines
New P4 (prescott) 30 pipelines
AMD 64 10 pipelines
G4 7-10 pipelines (depending on type of G4)
G5 12 pipelines

Thanks for the informative post. I was going to post something similar, but you beat me to it :) One of the head engineers who designed the P4 lectured in my computer architecture class, and he was talking about the future of the P4 and how the pipeline can't actually get much deeper than it already has. One really interesting thing is how much work went into making the P4 mobiles... Apple really needs a dedicated power friendly mobile line of processors in their laptops.

Naimfan
Feb 23, 2004, 12:20 PM
If I could get a 15" 1.5 GHz PB for $2299 or so I'd be quite tempted since it seems to me that the G5 PBs are still some time away... I'd like to think that with at least 1 Gb of RAM I'd be able to live with and enjoy it for at least a few years....

The only concern I would have is that Apple would continue to support the G4--I've seen statements that new apps like iDVD and Garageband either won't work on a G3 or, if they do, very sluggishly. I think that is a portent of things to come--and to be frank I can't blame Apple at all for it.

While I'd obviously prefer a G5, an upgraded G4, especially if it has a real performance boost (as opposed to a "cosmetic" boost in GHz rating), would be OK. Not great, but OK. I'd much rather Apple take the time to get the G5 PBs right as opposed to getting them out quickly... And I say that as both a stockholder and a user.

Best,

Bob

fabsgwu
Feb 23, 2004, 12:25 PM
Year of the Notebook!

Oh, that was 2003. Sorry guys, any substantially new powerbooks will have already come out last year; better hold on to your testicles.

dongmin
Feb 23, 2004, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by a17inchFuture
9 months to a year when they already have the chip (aka the BIG thing that was holding up the G5 powerbooks)? I think the 970fx is a big piece, but certainly not the only piece of the puzzle. Other components of the G5 motherboard (controller, memory, etc.) have to be heat-controlled as well, from the looks of the Power Mac. It could also be that Apple hs designed the new PB around a brand spanking new technology, like fuel cells, that is holding it back.

cr2sh
Feb 23, 2004, 12:28 PM
The last revision of the g4 powerbook will be an impressive one, I have no doubt. Apple will give us a reason to buy them.. maybe the cpu isn't the one we're wanting, but they'll pimp it out with enough goodies and such we'll all but forget the g5.

A low price... well, not LOW... but yeh, let's remember that the last revision of the PowerMac g4 was the lowest priced PowerMac ever. It included the first FW800 as well as internal blue-tooth and airport extreme. It was bascially a g5 without the chip (okay that's a far stretch) but the point is... I see this as an exciting chance to get a REALLY great powerbook for cheap.

whocares
Feb 23, 2004, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Naimfan

(...)

The only concern I would have is that Apple would continue to support the G4--I've seen statements that new apps like iDVD and Garageband either won't work on a G3 or, if they do, very sluggishly. I think that is a portent of things to come--and to be frank I can't blame Apple at all for it.

(...)

One of the best points made so far IMHO.

I have a G3 and can relate to this :(

Snowy_River
Feb 23, 2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by KLFloyd
I'm in a position where I'm going to HAVE to buy a new 12" laptop sometime in the next 6-8 months. I'm starting grad school in August and my 15" PB is on it's last legs. I'm probably not going to have the $ to buy a G5 if they come out in that time frame, but maybe I can get a G4 on close out?

Whatever happens, I hope it happens fast.


You 15" is on its last legs?! I started grad school running a PB3400. It wasn't until several months into school that I finally upgraded to a more recent machine. At that point, my 3400 was about 4.5 years old. Even if your PB is a first gen, it's only about 3 years old at this point.

For the record, my 3400 is still a great little work horse (at almost 7 years old now). I use it sometimes for certain applications, and I have it running as a list-serv.

CmdrLaForge
Feb 23, 2004, 12:53 PM
Guys,

just stay cool. The article on Appleinsiders says:
______________________________
1.42GHz samples of the 7447A chip are shipping in quantities to "selected customers" for $245 a go, in batches of 10,000 CPUs, according to the article. The chip is expected in production quantities sometime in the next 3 to 6 months.
______________________________

Production qtys in 3 to 6 month ! Thats much too long to be used in upgraded PB. I guess they are only interesting for the eMac and the iBook. But not for the PB. The PB needs and update much sooner.

Snowy_River
Feb 23, 2004, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by andyduncan
6 months, 90 Mhz, 2 watts...

Uh... shouldn't that be 170MHz? This would be a step from 1.33GHz to 1.5GHz. The 1.42GHz (which, by the way, is 80MHz less than 1.5GHz, not 90MHz) has never been in a PowerBook.

This would be a 12.5% speed boost, which, I'd say, isn't something to turn our noses up at while we wait for the PB G5s. Yes, I'm waiting for the G5s, too, but I don't think that we should be decrying Apple's keeping the PB line as fast as possible before they are able to put out the PB G5.

(And, please, no conspiracy theories about Apple choosing not to put out the PB G5 as fast as they can...:rolleyes: )

arn
Feb 23, 2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by CmdrLaForge
Guys,

just stay cool. The article on Appleinsiders says:


they are just referencing the same Register article.

arn

iPC
Feb 23, 2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
You 15" is on its last legs?! I started grad school running a PB3400. It wasn't until several months into school that I finally upgraded to a more recent machine. At that point, my 3400 was about 4.5 years old. Even if your PB is a first gen, it's only about 3 years old at this point.

For the record, my 3400 is still a great little work horse (at almost 7 years old now). I use it sometimes for certain applications, and I have it running as a list-serv.
You are using logic in this forum? Are you nuts?!? ;)

I have to admit, my P3 laptop from 1999 is no less usefull than my G3 800 iBook from 2003. They do the same basic thing (aside from what OS they run) for me.

Although I am saddened that my iBook is junk for something like Q3A... oh well. :(

My guess for the PB is 1 G4 related update (minimum) before the G5. I would guess that the form factor will be updated/changed for the G5, if for nothing else but ease of marketing. Nothing until 2005, if I was a betting person.

We shall see I suppose.

Snowy_River
Feb 23, 2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by groov'
Buy this offer for 1299 euros (19% tax included) if you live in Europe and it will ease the waiting for the G5 PB.

Can't beat it...


Specifications: (sorry, it's dutch but simple to understand I guess?
_______________ ______________________________________
- Processor ....

I'd sooner go back to my PB3400 while waiting for the PB G5... ;)

CmdrLaForge
Feb 23, 2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by arn
they are just referencing the same Register article.

arn

Ooopps I see. But then again. These chips will not be used in PB released in March.

That means - either there are no updates in march but in 3-6 month from now and the updates then will have the G4 :mad: what I can't believe.

Either we see now new PB with G4 or never

well just my 2 cents

Snowy_River
Feb 23, 2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by greenstork
.... in reality, you have no idea. None of us do....

Ha ha! A voice of reason! I'm often astonished by the level of certainty thrown around on these boards. Whenever talking about rumors, I freely admit that I know nothing, and I'm just guessing.

Peace! :D

a17inchFuture
Feb 23, 2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by greenstork
Hope you're not too attached to that left testicle. You state all your points with such confidence, but in reality, you have no idea. None of us do.

I believe the next Powerbook revision will include a ramped up G3 with AltiVec, but I'm not betting any testicles on it.

edit: Also, I'm sorry to say that you don't really understand the meaning of overclocked. A chip, when it is produced, is tested and rated at a certain speed. Newer chips commonly don't have all the kinks worked out in the production process and are rated accordingly. As the production line matures, small improvements are made and the results are chips classified to run at a higher speed. So while you think it is overclocked, you're wrong. Just because it keeps getting hotter and hotter doesn't mean it's overclocked, it just means it's rated higher. It may just be that it was poorly designed to begin with but I just don't know enough to say.

Wow, you've hit upon the point that you should have thought of before that original poster posted the first time: "NONE OF US KNOW!" While he claimed his beliefs to be fact, I attempted to back mine up and gave evidence for what I believed. And I never claimed that it was anything more than a belief.

Also, yes, I am pretty attached to my leftie, but more importantly, everyone who reads these boards regularly (which I do) has said the same thing several thousands of times( about the overclocked, not the leftie), and more to the point, regardless of the techincal definition of "overclocked", of which you are so certain, what i meant is exactly what you said. They use more power and produce more heat. And most on the board who read the words "overclocked" virtually think of that word as having the same definition you've just given.

As far as whether or not the chips are graded at 1.5, I am merely echoing thousands of posters comments. More importantly, we have had much evidence that the G4's have reached their peaks, and that they were possibly going to "overclock" (try not to have a conniption [if you need a clue on the word "conniption", too, try dictionary.com]) them in the next rev.. So where is the contrary evidence? From a register rumor that is probably just copying the ever-fallible MOSR.com?

Finally, while I may have used teh word testicle in my post, it is not uncivil, nor is it explicit. Its a part of the human anatomy. And beyond that, the only offensive part of my post would have been "I think you are wrong" which, last I checked, is a disagreement, not being uncivil. I was merely attempting to assert confidence in my beliefs on the subject.

Bilba
Feb 23, 2004, 01:20 PM
While I am sure that my post will rage others, this is my take on the issue.

I would like (let me rephraze: LOVE) for Apple to come out tomorrow (or next week) with a beefed up 1.42/1.53 G4 version of the pbook.

Such a powerbook, with a fast HD, 1x512MB memory chip, and better Superdrive will be more than enough for me to order it the day it is annonced. The current pbook is great as is, the only problem with it is that you pay the same price for a 6-months old product.

Beside I would prefer (spam me if you want) to pay ~2000$ for such a machine, rather than ~3000$ for a first generation G5 pbook. The new powerbook will be an amazing piece of machine, and it will keep me more than satisfied until the second revision of a G5 powerbook comes out.

Ohh and yes, I would also have a new laptop next week rather than keep on posting stupid posts for 5 more months about when is the G5 powerbook is going to be out.

P.S
Since I am probably not the only one that thinks that, Apple will probably experience nice increase in sales for the (hopefully) final revision of G4 powerbooks. Furthermore, since Apple probably knows that, there is no reason for them to dump G4 from the pbook. And to all of you who are about to post "G5 powerbook will sell even better." My answer to you is that the G5 powerbook will sell very well even if they are annonced in 6 more months, and it will probably be a better product at that point.

peace.

actionslacks
Feb 23, 2004, 01:22 PM
Whether or not Apple uses these chips in the Powerbooks is pure speculation.

A lot of you are missing the point. IBooks still need an update. Where do you think the iBooks will go if there are no new G4 chips?

iBooks just received G4s. There needs to be some processor roadmap for the iBook unless it is either going to stagnate or be discontinued all together.

CmdrLaForge
Feb 23, 2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Bilba


Beside I would prefer (spam me if you want) to pay ~2000$ for such a machine, rather than ~3000$ for a first generation G5 pbook. The new powerbook will be an amazing piece of machine, and it will keep me more than satisfied until the second revision of a G5 powerbook comes out.
peace.

Peace too. I really don't hope that Apple will increase the price on the PB just because they managed to get the G5 in ! I hope the price stays the same as it is.

HiRez
Feb 23, 2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Naimfan
While I'd obviously prefer a G5, an upgraded G4, especially if it has a real performance boost (as opposed to a "cosmetic" boost in GHz rating), would be OK. Not great, but OK.The thought of a new barely-faster G4 PowerBook makes me yawn, and certainly won't make me drop three grand to replace my trusty old 800 MHz G4 PB. But what probably would get me to jump is a dual-G4 PowerBook. They were rumored to be working on these a few years ago, and heat and wattage-wise it should certainly be doable in the 17" (15" tricky, 12" no way). Most people who need the fastest PowerBooks are creative professionals who could take serious advantage of dual CPUs for things like Maya, Cinema4D, Photoshop, After Effects, Final Cut Pro, and Xcode (and of course Quake). Now the battery life in such a beast would be terrible, but you could opt to run on only one of the CPUs while unplugged to extend that. Personally, I'd be willing to trade a bit more thickness on the 17" model for improved battery life. The thing is so long and deep anyway, it doesn't need to be that thin. A dual-G4 PowerBook is unlikely to happen, but for me that would be the only credible stopgap to a G5 PowerBook.

wizard
Feb 23, 2004, 01:30 PM
The Powetune 970's still have the issue of using excessive power. Its not just the processor but the whole package that can kill a notebook design.

The other issue is that at 1.5 GHz the 970's won't perform better either, so performance wise it is a wash. The article also points out htat this processor does have new power management capabilities. So it appears that there is more to the processor than fabrication imporvements.

AS much as I hate to say this, Apples involment with IBM must be balanced against alternative suppliers. It is in Apples best interest to keep Motorola on board for as long as possible to avoid being at the mercy of IBM.

Dave


Originally posted by chazmox
With the powertune 970's shipping, I don't see the justification of going to another rev. from Motorola. The G4's cost more, don't perform better, and powertune adds the true power scalability.

CmdrLaForge
Feb 23, 2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by actionslacks
Whether or not Apple uses these chips in the Powerbooks is pure speculation.

A lot of you are missing the point. IBooks still need an update. Where do you think the iBooks will go if there are no new G4 chips?

iBooks just received G4s. There needs to be some processor roadmap for the iBook unless it is either going to stagnate or be discontinued all together.

Exactly, and thats what I tried to point out as well.

PB should be updated in March and then again in September. Now I don't see the G5 but I hope for it in September. But iBooks should be updated in late April or May. That fits perfectly in the mentioned timeframe.

a17inchFuture
Feb 23, 2004, 01:31 PM
I am in a similar situation, where I am going to be faced with a difficult decision if they update g4's first. I am a student at the moment, but will graduate in may, and I was looking forward to using the edu discount toward a 17 inch pb (see my user name), and if they come out with a new g4 line, I am sure g5's wont be anyitme soon enough for me.

Therefore, since I have a decently usable comp at the moment (teh top of the line of the very first line of g4 towers[which only works when opened with side panel laying on teh ground]), should I wait and pay more in teh future, or pay less and get teh next g4 rev pb instead of a g5 pb?

Ahhh, the mind boggles . . . .

Any advice?

P.s. I think the 'rents will pay for the comp either way as a grad gift, but i woudl like them to pay less if possible.

a17inchFuture
Feb 23, 2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by wizard
The Powetune 970's still have the issue of using excessive power. Its not just the processor but the whole package that can kill a notebook design.

The other issue is that at 1.5 GHz the 970's won't perform better either, so performance wise it is a wash. The article also points out htat this processor does have new power management capabilities. So it appears that there is more to the processor than fabrication imporvements.

AS much as I hate to say this, Apples involment with IBM must be balanced against alternative suppliers. It is in Apples best interest to keep Motorola on board for as long as possible to avoid being at the mercy of IBM.

Dave

Where are you getting the "excessive power" bits of info from?

Also, as far as being at the mercy of IBM, they are not nerely at their mercy yet, and the pwoerbooks are evidently at the mercy of motorola, whose hands seem alot less capable than the hands of IBM to me.

jouster
Feb 23, 2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Bear
On the article itself, I have no opinion.

your overclokcing comment, why do you and a whole hoard of other people insist that all the Motorola G4s above 1GHz are overclocked?

And, furthermore, so what if they are? They still run at 1.42Ghz. Yesterday's overclocking is just today's standard.

Westside guy
Feb 23, 2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by dxp4acu
show me one article where the register has gotten something right between apple and motorola. I don't think one exists...

Given that I spent 9 months last year waiting for a 15" Powerbook upgrade that was "just a week or two away" based on "reports from reliable contacts" of the numerous Mac rumor sites...

I for one wouldn't slam the Reg's record too hard. :)

In any case this looks like last year all over again. There'll be rumors every week or two, everyone will chew them to death and spit them out, and the cycle will repeat endlessly.

Personally I doubt the G5 Powerbook will be a huge step above the G4s unless they can ramp up the clock speed significantly. I might be mistaken, but clock-for-clock it hasn't looked (to me) like the architecture makes that much difference; at least with the current apps.

stingerman
Feb 23, 2004, 01:55 PM
The 970FX still has better thermal and power characteristics over the 7447A. Too little too late and still overpriced, the 7447A will probably not show up in Apple's line unless it drops below $100.

bankshot
Feb 23, 2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by a17inchFuture
9 months to a year when they already have the chip (aka the BIG thing that was holding up the G5 powerbooks)? Are you crazy?

I must be crazy too, since I agree with that speculation (9 months to a year). :rolleyes: As others have pointed out, it's all speculation, unless some of us work at Apple in the PowerBook hardware group.

I'd guess that while the Powertune G5 was one of the big things needed for a PowerBook G5, it's probably not the only thing. What about the system bus that runs at half of processor clock speed? Current PowerBooks run at 167 MHz. To go to even a 1.5 GHz G5, that's a big jump to 750 MHz bus. To say nothing of a 2 GHz PowerBook. Who's to say, other than the engineers at Apple, that this isn't a tough problem? How much power would that motherboard use, and how much heat would it dissipate? How hard is it to fit into the relatively tiny package of a PowerBook?

I'm guessing that these issues are just as important as the CPU itself, in terms of mass producing a working G5 PowerBook at a reasonable price. But then I know nothing, and could be all wrong. Heck I'd love to be wrong and see G5 PowerBooks next month. But my money's on no earlier than November. Quite possibly not until MWSF '05 or shortly thereafter.

andyduncan
Feb 23, 2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by invaLPsion
In addition, I believe that we may not only see 1.5Ghz, but 1.533 GHz. That's a 200 mhz update. That is based on sources from MacOSRumors that predict a G4 update to the powerbooks within the next few weeks.

The fact that you are quoting pothead Meader as a source completely undermines your credibility.

god I miss macosrumors.net, those guys were priceless

diggy
Feb 23, 2004, 02:00 PM
mac would speed up the powerbooks considerably
if they put 7200rpm drives in them, instead
of the standard 4200rpm or the special 5400.

that simple

tristan
Feb 23, 2004, 02:00 PM
The register's a good source for Intel and AMD roadmaps, but not so much for Apple news. I like the site, but I won't waste any time thinking about their "prediction", which I think is just speculation.

I think they did what any Apple speculator is doing now which is:

"Hmm... Apple PBG5 won't be ready for a while... but Steve did say it'll be ready this year... that must mean late summer or fall... but the PB hasn't been upgraded in a while... so I guess there will be another PBG4 rev before the PBG5... but not much because Apple never does a huge upgrade... so what's after 1.33... 1.42? Too little. 1.66? Too much. Howabout 1.5 Ghz?"

Not exactly a rumor, just an educated guess. :-)

stingerman
Feb 23, 2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Westside guy
Given that I spent 9 months last year waiting for a 15" Powerbook upgrade that was "just a week or two away" based on "reports from reliable contacts" of the numerous Mac rumor sites...

I for one wouldn't slam the Reg's record too hard. :)

In any case this looks like last year all over again. There'll be rumors every week or two, everyone will chew them to death and spit them out, and the cycle will repeat endlessly.

Personally I doubt the G5 Powerbook will be a huge step above the G4s unless they can ramp up the clock speed significantly. I might be mistaken, but clock-for-clock it hasn't looked (to me) like the architecture makes that much difference; at least with the current apps.

Performance scaling is not 1:1 with clock scaling. So if there is a 1:1 performance increase with the G5 at a higher clock than it will do much better than a G4 at the same clock. I hope that makes sense. Internal clock frequency is only one part of the performance equation. FSB speed, functional units, simultaneous instructions, prediction accuracy, and others all contribute. The G5 has many other advances over the G4. So a 1.6MHz (800 FSB) G5 would always be more attractive than a 1.6MHz (200 FSB) G4.

gekko513
Feb 23, 2004, 02:01 PM
It's not like Apple is going to delay G5 products just because the G4 gets a 12.5% speed bump.

I think this is excellent news. According to the G5 rumors and this, Apple will get better G4 and G5 processors in near future. I'm sure Apple with use this to give consumers a better product line all over, thereby increasing their market share, which in turn will make the platform more attractive to developers who will give us better software.

This is GREAT!

Oh and here is some info directly from motorola's site (http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7447A&nodeId=03C1TR046708718653).

stingerman
Feb 23, 2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by diggy
mac would speed up the powerbooks considerably
if they put 7200rpm drives in them, instead
of the standard 4200rpm or the special 5400.

that simple

It's a power and heat compromise. The last generation of Powerbooks were experiencing heat problems from the HD and interestingly not the processor. And Battery life is important to a Notebook user. Apple's Notebooks are quintessential notebooks in form and balanced performance. Only IBM's Notebooks excel similarly in design.

spaceballl
Feb 23, 2004, 02:08 PM
Overclocking is defined as running a chip faster than the manufacturer has specified it for.

Motorola is a chip maker. When they update processors, make new revisions of them, and increase the clock speed, that is not overclocking. It may be milking the processor for all its worth, but it is not overclocking.

Overclocking would be taking that 1.5 ghz chip, soldering some resistors, and making it 1.6 ghz.

-Kevin

HiRez
Feb 23, 2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by stingerman
It's a power and heat compromise. The last generation of Powerbooks were experiencing heat problems from the HD and interestingly not the processor.I don't think that's too huge of a problem. I put a Hitachi 7K60 (7200 rpm) drive in my PowerBook about 3-4 months ago. I have not noticed any difference in regards to either heat/fan, battery life, or noise over the stock drive. Great drive BTW, highly recommended, especially if you do portable video editing (if you get one for this, I recommend formatting it with a dedicated partition for media).

Grimace
Feb 23, 2004, 02:10 PM
Until they can cool the G5 in a powerbook - you whiners will have to just deal with it. Just because you want it, doesn't mean it is possible right now.

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 23, 2004, 02:12 PM
I wonder how all of this will affect the imac line? we know apple keeps them below or even to powerbooks. does this mean the next imac will be 1.4 or 1.5 g4?

mania
Feb 23, 2004, 02:15 PM
well, i waited and waited but could wait no longer since i figured it would be months before the g5 powerbook. anyway picked up this sweet 15" 1.25 G4 powerbook from apple refurb for $2100) - its really a fine machine - no complaints. have not felt it was too slow yet (be sure to add RAM tho).

bottom line. if you can wait - wait. if not - buy one and don't look back.

dernhelm
Feb 23, 2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by ThomasJefferson
At what temp do we melt?

Your pants will go up at somewhere slightly above Farenheit 451.

:-)

D*I*S_Frontman
Feb 23, 2004, 02:21 PM
I look at the possibility of a new generation of G4 laptops at SLIGHTLY higher specs as a GREAT thing. But that is because I am an "upgrade vulture."

I bought the Pismo 400 I am typing on now as brand new/open box from an online vendor once the G4 Ti's first came out. I think I paid about $1400 for it with a GB of RAM installed over two 1/2 years ago.

I bought a DP 1.25 PM G4 with 2 GB RAM right when the G5's came out.

Buying the last dying gasp of a product line from Apple is often a good bet. All of the design flaws have been worked out and reliability is top-notch. And you get GREAT bang for the buck. NO, you don't get the "mine is bigger than yours" bragging rights that the bleeding-edgers love so much, but you get a lot of work done for less money and less downtime.

As much as I love my Pismo, I do video production work and am looking towards perhaps acquiring a 17" sometime soon. Upgrades tend to depress the used market, so thanks to this new speed-bump it won't be long before I'll be able to snag a 1GHZ 17" w/2GB RAM for $1,500 or so. Then I'll bite and give the Pismo to my wife full-time.

My standards are different than many posting here: I ask questions like "what do I need it to do, and how fast do I need it to do it?" instead of "how much faster is it than Mr. Smith's next door?" or "how cool does it make me look when I whip this out?" or, worst yet "how many FPS will I get on my favorite waste-of-time-&-CPU game I love so much?"

But that's just me.

spinko
Feb 23, 2004, 02:29 PM
"The 970FX, meanwhile, consumes a mere 12.3W at 1.4GHz, paving the way for PowerBook G5s. That figure is comparable to the 7.5W a 1GHz consumption of the G4-class Motorola MPC7447 that drives the current PowerBook G4s. The 970FX's SpeedStep-style PowerTune technology will help too."

quote from "the register" http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/35057.html

well, let's say the new G4 CPU's will be used in the ibook line while the G5 will be used in the new Powerbooks ... or am I just wishing that would happen...:rolleyes:

uv23
Feb 23, 2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by greenstork
I believe the next Powerbook revision will include a ramped up G3 with AltiVec, but I'm not betting any testicles on it.

Best quote ever. :)

noel4r
Feb 23, 2004, 02:55 PM
sadly, this rumor is more realistic than others. i dont think we'll see a G5 powerbook until the last quarter of this year the earliest.

rog
Feb 23, 2004, 03:02 PM
Cool, only 6 months for a 10% speed boost. Whoopee! They need to cut prices 30% across the line, give these a killer graphics card, fast huge HDs, and big L3 caches to make them less of the embarassing ripoffs that all the portables now are. $2000 for a 1 Ghz would have been ok in 2000, but not in 2004!

johnpaul191
Feb 23, 2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by carletonmusic
Until they can cool the G5 in a powerbook - you whiners will have to just deal with it. Just because you want it, doesn't mean it is possible right now.

good point. Last Fall Apple said it would be a year or more till they could get a G5 into a portable. all of the stuff IMB is producing and releasing now has been roadmapped, they didn't discover these new 970 chips in their sock pile. They JUST got them in the Xserve, and if you have ever seen one of those up close you know they are thin, but they are deep. they are a lot bigger than a laptop. even scaling them down and everything, it will still be some time (i am guessing).

It seems reasonable to expect another G4 powerbook, or no revisions for a while. Then again the iBooks and iMacs both have pretty constrained cases too and they are still using G4 chips. I would guess they will be harder to do the eventual G5 upgrade than the eMac.

anyway, G5 powerbooks will be months and months away. look at what's fact and not just speculation mixed with dreaming. i would put some money on that. if Apple had a G5 powerbook ready for consumers, they would release it...... there are obviously factors holding it back beyond Steve Jobs trying to make you tense.

blackfox
Feb 23, 2004, 03:05 PM
Threads like this are always an interesting read...as this is really an exchange of opinions, I'd like to posit a question...I know with the (relatively) recent introduction of the G5 PM line, that many software companies(ie Adobe) have been working on optimising their product(s) for G5s(if not done already)...since a PB is a 'professional' machine, and already at a disadvantage performance-wise to the PMs, I wonder if the logic IS there for a G5 PB instead of another G4 revision...the rationale being-if all the latest pro apps are optimised for G5, then it would make sense to put that chip in your portable professional line...and use the new G4 in the iBooks...any thoughts? Other than that, many good points have been brought up, but I ask, I know it is hard to wait, but everyone wants the (eventual) PB G5 to be a great machine, and greatness also cannot be rushed...if Apple came out with new PB G5s tommorow, people would rush out and buy them, then post complaints on how the keyboard melted, the battery exploded...how apple was irresponsible to put out such a machine...etc...you get the idea. I am as impatient as the next guy, and desparately need a powerful laptop to replace my pismo, but if I'm going to spend the cash, I want the product done right. In my opinion that will come in Jan 2005 (If earlier, fine, but then I can just wait for rev b...) Cheers

SiliconAddict
Feb 23, 2004, 03:06 PM
*yawns* With a 127Mhz system bus basically bottlenecking the CPU. So we are basically at the point where the PowerMac G4's where at pre-G5.

Thanks but I'm not going to piss my money away on something with lagging industry performance. OS X or no OS X the 17" PowerBook isn't worth 3 grand. Not against 1.7GHZ Pentium M systems. Screech all you want about people not needing that kind of performance. The fact of the matter is G5 users aren't complaining. And the fact of the matter is that bang for your buck wise a Pentium M based device is a better deal.


Frankly I'm not all that surprised by this announcement. Look at it this way. Jobs is not going to release a G5 PowerBook without a major announcement. This will be an event parallel to the transition from the G4 to the G5 for the PowerMac. You saw what a big deal Apple made out of that right? This is probably going to be a tide me over until WWDC where at minimum Apple may very well announce the 17" and a 15" G5 PowerBooks.
The thing I'm concerned with is the speed of these systems. Lets say Apple does indeed speedbump the PowerBooks to 1.5Ghz. A G5 is going to have to come in above that otherwise the perceived notion is going to be that its going to be as fast as a G5 so why bother. Like it or not the Mhz myth is alive and well. It won't matter if a G5 PowerBook kicks the snot out of a G4 at the same clock speed. Consumers, in general, are pretty stupid. They aren't tech geeks and as such trust numbers.

I knew going into Macworld in January was a long shot for G5 PowerBooks. I think there's going to be a 50/50% chance that WWDC may being G5 laptops to be released within the month. A 60%/40% chance of Jobs pulling another PowerMac and at the very least announcing the G5 PowerBooks for preorder with a shipping date by 3rd-4th quarter. Again, I'm not surprised by this. I am nevertheless disappointed.

MrMacMan
Feb 23, 2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by NicoMan
Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!.....

I had several friends betting on the G5 rumor for PowerBooks...

Arg... Apple...

If this is true...

Update everything, make it a much better deal then the current ones.

Come on, really.

The Cheat
Feb 23, 2004, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by spaceballl
Overclocking is defined as running a chip faster than the manufacturer has specified it for.

Motorola is a chip maker. When they update processors, make new revisions of them, and increase the clock speed, that is not overclocking. It may be milking the processor for all its worth, but it is not overclocking.

Overclocking would be taking that 1.5 ghz chip, soldering some resistors, and making it 1.6 ghz.

-Kevin

Thank you!!!! The whole time I've been reading this thread I was just dying for someone to point that fact out!

Motoroloa/Apple have no need to "overclock" their chips, because they are in control of their manufacture. When someone says they are "overclocking" they are either raising the processor's clock multiplier or FSB from the standard factory setting. However, if you are the factory, you can simply up the hardwired multiplier or FSB numbers yourself, and the chip will run as such.

Processors are not manufactured from the outset to run at a predefined speed. i.e. IBM doesn't say "Ok, now we will make a batch of 1.8GHz chips". They all come from the same die and each tested to see what specs they conform to. One might be stable at up to 1920Mhz, so it becomes a 1.8Ghz chip. Another might be 2080MHz, so it becomes a 2.0GHz chip.

It is also possible that all the processors manufactured are stable at 2Ghz, but are still "underclocked" to 1.6 or 1.8. This is because Apple (and all manufacturers) expect you to pay a premium for their top of the line computer. While in reality, it costs them no more to make a 1.6GHz G5 than it does a 2GHz G5. This is just the way it is.

So, in conclusion, if Motorola has refined the process somewhat where they can now consistently make processors that run at 1.5GHz - THEY ARE 1.5GHz PROCESORS - NOT 1.42GHz OVERCLOCKED!!!!!!!!!! IF A PROCESSOR CAN RUN STABLE AT A CERTAIN SPEED...IT IS THAT SPEED!

Thank You.

</rant>

chazmox
Feb 23, 2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by arn
I'm not sure where you got that the G4s cost more... it's probably not true.

arn

It's an assumption, but one based on IBM's larger wafer size, smaller die size, and better yields ( fact , fact, and assumption based on mot and IBM's history ).

gskiser
Feb 23, 2004, 03:29 PM
This article was just released on CNET.com. They're claiming that there is a strong possibility that Apple will not use Moto's new G4, and that the G5 could surface in the PB by August:

"However, analysts say that now that IBM has moved the G5 line to its 90-nanometer manufacturing process, a G5 PowerBook should not be far off."

Check out the full article at the link below and let me know your thoughts:

http://news.com.com/2100-1044-5163527.html

agreenster
Feb 23, 2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by HiRez
Most people who need the fastest PowerBooks are creative professionals who could take serious advantage of dual CPUs for things like Maya, Cinema4D, Photoshop, After Effects, Final Cut Pro, and Xcode (and of course Quake).

Being one of these professionals, I can tell you that using a powerbook as your primary machine is stupid.

Laptops are great for portability, and taking your work with you, especially when you are a graphic designer. HOWEVER, they are NOT desktop replacements for people in the animation/film world. No laptop will do what a desktop will do when it comes to rendering, editing, and animating.

When the G5 Powerbook comes out NEXT MWSF, it will be a good thing. But in the meantime, the G4s are perfect.

CmdrLaForge
Feb 23, 2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by gskiser
This article was just released on CNET.com. They're claiming that there is a strong possibility that Apple will not use Moto's new G4, and that the G5 could surface in the PB by August:

"However, analysts say that now that IBM has moved the G5 line to its 90-nanometer manufacturing process, a G5 PowerBook should not be far off."

Check out the full article at the link below and let me know your thoughts:

http://news.com.com/2100-1044-5163527.html

Very interesting article, but I doubt that the analysts really know something. They are just guessing as we are.

eSnow
Feb 23, 2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by nighthawk
How can the G4 at 1.5 GHz be any cooler than the G5 at 1.5 GHz? It just does not make sense!!


It is most likely even hotter than an equally-clocked G5 because the 970FX draws approx. 40% less power than the 7447A at the same clock speed.

I don't believe we will have to wait much longer for a PB G5.

Frobozz
Feb 23, 2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by MikeAtari
Wow. It consumes 85 watts, in a Laptop!
Is that a record or what?

It seems to me Apple should be able to come up with Some cooling solution for a G5 Now.

I agree 100%, but let's face it... the PC world has pretty abysmal portables. Most are VERY hot, with low-ish spec's and awful battery life. Apple really takes them to the cleaners.

It may be possible to make a laptop that has an 85 watt power requirement just on the CPU... but I don't think they get over an hour and a half battery life. Is that actually portable? I don't know many PC laptop users that leave their laptop unplugged.

On the plus side, the new G5's will have lower or equal wattage than this new G4. Personally, I think the cards are clear:

<speculation>
The G5 PowerBook is coming no later than Sept. (probably WWDC with the G5+), the iBook will continue to use the G4, and will max out at 1.5 Ghz, which means that the G5 Powerbook will likely start at roughly that speed and move up.
</speculation>

All in time. But it's looking good!

MikeAtari
Feb 23, 2004, 03:43 PM
If AMD can Cool an 81Watt processor,
What's keeping Apple from cooling a 20w G5?

macdong
Feb 23, 2004, 03:44 PM
it would be stupid for Apple to go into another PB rev with a G4. in the years to come more and more software will be optimized for G5. if Apple comes up with a G4 PowerBook, it'll be a professional laptop that's behind the revolution. and people who buy it will miss all the good things to come for the new G5 processor. i don't know about you, but if i am going to spend $3000 i expect the computer to be good for at least 2 years. a G4 rev PB, not gonna cut it. so face it, people won't buy it except those who are desperate. i say save the money and get G5 PB out as soon as possible.

cb911
Feb 23, 2004, 03:46 PM
oh well. it's news like this that makes me glad i bought my PB when i did.

but if the new ones have major upgrades... i might be tempted to upgrade again. when does it end!?:eek: :p

MikeAtari
Feb 23, 2004, 03:46 PM
Frobozz, you beat my post.

What crazy game is Apple playing.
They can't WAIT till the WWDC!

They need to ship when the product is ready. ASAP. If they want market share they have to Compete.

If they want to build Just for 3% then they can wait till h*** freezes over.

evilbert420
Feb 23, 2004, 03:50 PM
"I agree 100%, but let's face it... the PC world has pretty abysmal portables."

Overall I'd say that's true, but my company recently bought me a Dell Precision M60, and it is the bomb. 1920x1200 resolution widescreen, 60GB 7200RPM HD, 2 Gig RAM, 128MB NVidia QuadroFX 700 Video, Combo Drive, 1.7Gig Pentium-M. It's a beauty, although it's a bit heavy.

Frobozz
Feb 23, 2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by dernhelm
Your pants will go up at somewhere slightly above Farenheit 451.

:-)

The commonly accepted human threshold for burns is 140 degrees farenheit. Any temperature above that point will burn exposed skin. Since most people will have pants on, and not have the laptop directly on their skin, I would suspect (without knowing the QA process on laptops) that roughly 140 degrees is the maximum external temprature.

I know you were joking... but I had an insatiable need to be dorky for a minute. :-)

Frobozz
Feb 23, 2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by evilbert420
"I agree 100%, but let's face it... the PC world has pretty abysmal portables."

Overall I'd say that's true, but my company recently bought me a Dell Precision M60, and it is the bomb. 1920x1200 resolution widescreen, 60GB 7200RPM HD, 2 Gig RAM, 128MB NVidia QuadroFX 700 Video, Combo Drive, 1.7Gig Pentium-M. It's a beauty, although it's a bit heavy.

Sounds rockin' from a spec. perspective. I think the places Apple excels (aside from generally advanced specs) is battery life and weight. Aesthetically, they are debatably the best looking... although that's a personal preference.

Indeed sounds like you've got a kick ass laptop, though.

oomega1
Feb 23, 2004, 04:12 PM
omg if they put another g4 pb i'm gonna go with PC, doom3 is coming out and i ain't gonna wait. Stupid plan in my opinion i know a lot of PC users who wanted to convert but not at the cost of doom3, i might of waited till summer but not near the end of winter which is gonna seem unlikely with a g4 update. I bet if the g4 update is now it wont be until quarter 4 of dec. or next year quarter 1 to get a pb g5. And computers aren't something you update every 6 months. so i'd probably just get a g5 pb rev 2. I'm so pissed at this rumor now. =/. Waited since last year of august.

Steven1621
Feb 23, 2004, 04:17 PM
this is what we really expected, correct? it has been the dominant assumption that there would be one more moto G4 upgrade before the pb G5. the update will probably have a speed bump, better graphics card, bigger hd, and possibly fast superdrive. all of this is fine with me. i have accepted that i just don't need a g5, but a pb with the aforementioned specs will suit my needs.

SiliconAddict
Feb 23, 2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Frobozz
I agree 100%, but let's face it... the PC world has pretty abysmal portables. Most are VERY hot, with low-ish spec's and awful battery life. Apple really takes them to the cleaners.

Sorry but I claim BS on that statement. You obviously have never use a Pentium M device. I can rip a DVD and recompress it into a DIVX movie and the bottom of an IBM T40 laptop that is 1" thick is only slightly warm to the touch. For standard use I've been getting 4 hours off of a 1.5Ghz system. God people! Get real facts before you spout this BS.

hayesk
Feb 23, 2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by macdong
it would be stupid for Apple to go into another PB rev with a G4. in the years to come more and more software will be optimized for G5. if Apple comes up with a G4 PowerBook, it'll be a professional laptop that's behind the revolution. and people who buy it will miss all the good things to come for the new G5 processor. i don't know about you, but if i am going to spend $3000 i expect the computer to be good for at least 2 years. a G4 rev PB, not gonna cut it. so face it, people won't buy it except those who are desperate. i say save the money and get G5 PB out as soon as possible.

Explain how not doing another G4 will make a G5 come out sooner? Do you honestly think they don't have enough people designing the G5 PB right now? Revving the the PB G4 is quick, easy, and doesn't at all take away from the PB G5 development.

Sorry, but it just takes time to engineer these products. As much as you and everyone else would love to see a PB G5 soon, it can't happen just because we want it to or because you think only desparate people would buy a PB G4 (which is BS).

Lots of people will buy a PB G4 (including me), because we know that software that supports the G4 will be available for years to come, and the only thing the G5 gives is extra speed. For most people, a new G4 will provide just as much utility, and will provide it sooner.

hayesk
Feb 23, 2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by evilbert420
"I agree 100%, but let's face it... the PC world has pretty abysmal portables."

Overall I'd say that's true, but my company recently bought me a Dell Precision M60, and it is the bomb. 1920x1200 resolution widescreen, 60GB 7200RPM HD, 2 Gig RAM, 128MB NVidia QuadroFX 700 Video, Combo Drive, 1.7Gig Pentium-M. It's a beauty, although it's a bit heavy.

1920x1200 on a laptop screen?!? That's a bit small, unless the laptop is huge.

Also, you didn't mention the weight? If it's a portable, weight matters.

Westside guy
Feb 23, 2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by stingerman
Performance scaling is not 1:1 with clock scaling. So if there is a 1:1 performance increase with the G5 at a higher clock than it will do much better than a G4 at the same clock. I hope that makes sense. Internal clock frequency is only one part of the performance equation. FSB speed, functional units, simultaneous instructions, prediction accuracy, and others all contribute. The G5 has many other advances over the G4. So a 1.6MHz (800 FSB) G5 would always be more attractive than a 1.6MHz (200 FSB) G4.

I understand that. What I was saying is this - when they came out with the G5 Powermacs last year, some of the benchmarks that people were ooh-ing and aah-ing over sure looked to me like the G5 Powermacs WERE basically scaling somewhere around 1:1 vs. clock speed when compared with the G4 Powermacs.

Admittedly those apps weren't optimized for the G5; the question is how much improvement can be reasonably expected once they are so optimized.

skinEman23
Feb 23, 2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by hayesk
Explain how not doing another G4 will make a G5 come out sooner? Do you honestly think they don't have enough people designing the G5 PB right now? Revving the the PB G4 is quick, easy, and doesn't at all take away from the PB G5 development.

Sorry, but it just takes time to engineer these products. As much as you and everyone else would love to see a PB G5 soon, it can't happen just because we want it to or because you think only desparate people would buy a PB G4 (which is BS).

Lots of people will buy a PB G4 (including me), because we know that software that supports the G4 will be available for years to come, and the only thing the G5 gives is extra speed. For most people, a new G4 will provide just as much utility, and will provide it sooner.

My thoughts exactly. The G5 might not come out for quite a while. In the meantime, Apple would be stupid to allow its PB line to stagnate. I will also buy if a new G4 line comes out, because by now most kinks have been worked out of the G4 and because it will probably be an excellent value. On the other hand, the first G5 may very well be problem-ridden, especially if its release comes before it has been thoroughly tested. I would applaud another round of G4's.

cr2sh
Feb 23, 2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by evilbert420
Overall I'd say that's true, but my company recently bought me a Dell Precision M60, and it is the bomb. 1920x1200 resolution widescreen, 60GB 7200RPM HD, 2 Gig RAM, 128MB NVidia QuadroFX 700 Video, Combo Drive, 1.7Gig Pentium-M. It's a beauty, although it's a bit heavy.

I spec'd that system out on Dell...


Dell Precision Mobile Workstation M60
Pentium« M Processor 1.70GHz 15.4 WUXGA Display, 2GB, DDR SDRAM Memory (2 DIMMS), 60GB ATA-100 IDE (7200 rpm) , NVIDIA« Quadro FX Go700Ö 4XAGP graphics w/128MB DDR Video Mem
Price: $4,795.00

Yeh.. you're right. For $5 grand. And that doesn't include a cd burner... let alone a dvd burner.

PBGPowerbook
Feb 23, 2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
They aren't tech geeks and as such trust numbers.

Yes, there are certainly no tech geeks placing trust in numbers in this thread/forum/site

MacCoaster
Feb 23, 2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Frobozz
The commonly accepted human threshold for burns is 140 degrees farenheit. Any temperature above that point will burn exposed skin. Since most people will have pants on, and not have the laptop directly on their skin, I would suspect (without knowing the QA process on laptops) that roughly 140 degrees is the maximum external temprature.

I know you were joking... but I had an insatiable need to be dorky for a minute. :-)
He was actually referring to the book Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury. Very, very interesting book. Similar to Orwell's 1984.

Nermal
Feb 23, 2004, 06:22 PM
I haven't read through the entire thread (I've got class in a few minutes) so sorry if this has already been mentioned.

If they release a 1.5 GHz PB, and put the new Radeon 9700 in it, we'll have a great gaming laptop. In fact, it'll be a better system than my top of the line G4 desktop!

Bilba
Feb 23, 2004, 06:22 PM
What has not been covered is the fact that according to theregister the new cpu will only be available in couple of months. It is one thing if they release it tomorrow/next week, and another if they release it in 3-4 months. If Apple knows that they needs six or more months until G5 is ready, they can use this new machine now to hold consumers interested in the G4 version. Releasing it in April or May seems to me like a stupid idea.

I see only two possibilities:
1) Apple announces the new version either this week or next week. G5 will be annonced in about 6 months.
2) Apple will annonce a G5 laptop in about 3 or less months. Hence, we will not see another revision of a G4 powerbook. New chip will be used in future versions of the ibook.

skinEman23
Feb 23, 2004, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Bilba
Releasing it in April or May seems to me like a stupid idea.

Good point. If these chips will ship no earlier than the stated time, then they probably aren't going in PBs. Apple needs to update now, not right before the G5s hit.

invaLPsion
Feb 23, 2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Bilba
What has not been covered is the fact that according to theregister the new cpu will only be available in couple of months. It is one thing if they release it tomorrow/next week, and another if they release it in 3-4 months. If Apple knows that they needs six or more months until G5 is ready, they can use this new machine now to hold consumers interested in the G4 version. Releasing it in April or May seems to me like a stupid idea.

I see only two possibilities:
1) Apple announces the new version either this week or next week. G5 will be annonced in about 6 months.
2) Apple will annonce a G5 laptop in about 3 or less months. Hence, we will not see another revision of a G4 powerbook. New chip will be used in future versions of the ibook.

This is the most sensible thing I've heard so far on this thread.

punkmac
Feb 23, 2004, 06:48 PM
Did anybody think the 1.5 is going to be in the iMac and iBook? Leaving the g5's strictly for the Power line?

Just a thought.

I.:rolleyes:

Naimfan
Feb 23, 2004, 06:50 PM
Very good point on the availability of the 1.5 Ghz chips. From an outside sales perspective, I have a hard time believing Apple wouldn't update the PBs, most likely by the end of March to be inline with history. Of course I have no idea how the current PBs are selling--if they're selling like hotcakes the business/sales rationale to update them diminishes.

So the question then becomes this--if not these chips, then what? And there appear to be a few possibilities. First, the G5 may happen sooner rather than later. This seems unlikely to me the more I read, given the engineering challenges and supply questions. Second, there might not be any PB updates at all. Third, there might be a PB update coming but with a chip that is already in existence (if possible) but under the radar, or the update might not involve the CPU at all--it might be faster HD, graphics card, etc. Has Apple ever done that?

Best,

Bob

ewoh24
Feb 23, 2004, 06:56 PM
Does anyone have a link to all G4 specs?

QCassidy352
Feb 23, 2004, 06:58 PM
but if the powertune 90 nm G5s are available... why would apple not use them in the powerbooks????

This has gotten absurd. Another tiny speed bumped G4... what a joke.

Fukui
Feb 23, 2004, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by MikeAtari
If AMD can Cool an 81Watt processor,
What's keeping Apple from cooling a 20w G5?
Two inches, four pounds, and three fans.

crayzaysean
Feb 23, 2004, 07:08 PM
I think this rumor is debunked by this cnet article:

By Ina Fried
CNET News.com
February 23, 2004, 12:39 PM PT


_Add your opinion

Forward in Format for






Motorola on Monday announced a faster PowerPC chip that could be used in speedier Apple Computer laptops.


Motorola said it is now producing samples of a 1.42GHz PowerPC processor, a chip analysts say might soon find its way into the PowerBook, Apple's high-end laptop. Motorola said the chip has a typical power consumption of less than 20 watts, a level that makes it suitable for laptops. The chip also contains multimedia instructions that are required for chips that Apple bills as G4 processors.

"It certainly would be a fit for a portable Mac," Mercury Research analyst Dean McCarron said. "It's obviously up to Apple whether they would do that versus using an IBM (chip)."




A Motorola representative declined to comment on whether Apple might be interested in the chip. In a press release, Motorola said the chip is designed for a wide range of uses, including in computing as well as embedded, noncomputer, tasks.


An Apple representative also declined to comment, citing its policy of not discussing future products.
Motorola made the chips for the first Mac in 1984 and was the provider of the "68000" chips that powered all Macs until the PowerPC arrived in the mid-1990s. Originally a joint effort of IBM and Motorola, both companies now make PowerPC chips independently. IBM is the sole supplier of G5 chips, while Apple has used both companies at various times to supply other PowerPC processors.



A 1.42GHz chip would give a speed boost to the PowerBook line, but such a processor could also eventually wind up in Apple's more consumer-oriented iBook line, considering that Apple moved it to the G4 processor last fall.

The PowerBook line was last updated in September, when Apple added 15-inch aluminum models at up to 1.25GHz and a 17-inch model running at 1.33GHz.

While Mac fans are no doubt curious whether Apple adopts the chip, McCarron noted that the Mac market is only a fraction of Motorola's business, with most of its sales coming from noncomputer uses.

"Motorola traditionally has done a tremendous amount of volume in the embedded space whether it be for automotive, laser printers or some other type of controller."

The big question for many Mac users is when Apple will make the debut of its first G5 laptop. When it introduced the chip, Apple has said that it would take some time for it to reach the portable market because of its power requirements.

However, analysts say that now that IBM has moved the G5 line to its 90-nanometer manufacturing process, a G5 PowerBook should not be far off.

"I doubt it would be later than July or August," said Peter Glaskowsky, editor in chief of Microprocessor Report. "If everything had been just on a slightly different schedule we might have seen them at Macworld."

Apple is already using that lower-power chip in its rack-mounted Xserve G5.

tazznb
Feb 23, 2004, 07:15 PM
But it takes FOREVER to even get chips from them due to PISS POOR YIELDS!

Hello Motto.

OOps!

Bye bye Motto.

JeffTL
Feb 23, 2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by cr2sh
I spec'd that system out on Dell...



Yeh.. you're right. For $5 grand. And that doesn't include a cd burner... let alone a dvd burner.



Also, a decked out Powerbook is $4224...with a 17" screen and a DVD burner. Might be slower in the hard drive department, 5400 rpm (or 4200 if you want to save $125), but you can buy a 200-gig 7200rpm LaCie drive for just $200 at Amazon...I think a little bit more if you want FW800.

~Shard~
Feb 23, 2004, 07:26 PM
I see this leading to 3 possibilities:

1) PB revisions will be announced in the very near future with these new G4 chips. This would signify that G5 PBs are still a ways off, and these new G4 PBs will act as an interim update until the G5s are ready - probably in 6-8 months or so.

2) these G4s will not be used in PBs and the next PB update WILL be G5 PBs. When this will be however, is still up in the air, but might be in 3-4 months, a shorter time frame than the above scenario.

3) these G4 chips are not meant for the PBs at all and will be deployed into the iMacs (meaning G5 iMacs are a ways off) or into iBooks and eMacs - and who knows about the PBs!

And lastly, there seems to be a lot of people complaining that this announcement might indeed signal there will be no G5 PBs for a while. To them I say quit thinking you're entitled to whatever you want whenever you want it. The G5 PBs will be released when they are technologically ready to be released and no sooner. Patience is a virtue.

i have a name?
Feb 23, 2004, 07:38 PM
hahahahaha

*rolls on the floor laughing for like 5 min*

wouldnt it be hilarious if apple did wait till macworld 2005 to release G5 powerbooks but then had them be dual processor?

hahahahahahaha

i know its not going to happen but it would be great just to see the look on everyones faces:D

*resumes rolling on the floor laughing*

illumin8
Feb 23, 2004, 07:55 PM
You know, everyone on this board just seems to get completely rattled by news like this. It's like "oh, how could Apple do this to us and make me wait another year to spend my money on a PB G5". Well, I learned last summer to take all of these PB G5 rumors with a major grain of salt.

The thing that really gets me is that so many people have their own wild ideas about what Apple will do "in the next 3 months" or "in the next 6 months". None of us know! Don't let yourself think for just one second that just because that is what you want to have happen, that is what will happen. Everyone seems to color their predictions with their desires.

Myself: I bought a 1.25 G4 Powerbook last November, put 1 GB of memory in it, and it rocks. I use it every day and it is powerful enough for what I do (music mostly). It will be powerful enough for me for the next 12-18 months, and that way I can skip all the inevitable problems that will surface with the rev. A G5 PowerBook, and upgrade when the rev. B dual processor 2.5 ghz. monster G5 fuel-cell, liquid cooled PowerBook is released, or whenever the price/performance ratio is compelling enough to upgrade.

Really folks, the G4 PowerBooks are great machines right now. It's going to take Apple a while to make a G5 PB that is as good on the performance/battery life ratio as the G4 is, and they would never release a product that was worse than the current line. Buy a G4 PB now and you won't be dissapointed.

~Shard~
Feb 23, 2004, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by illumin8
You know, everyone on this board just seems to get completely rattled by news like this. It's like "oh, how could Apple do this to us and make me wait another year to spend my money on a PB G5". Well, I learned last summer to take all of these PB G5 rumors with a major grain of salt.

The thing that really gets me is that so many people have their own wild ideas about what Apple will do "in the next 3 months" or "in the next 6 months". None of us know! Don't let yourself think for just one second that just because that is what you want to have happen, that is what will happen. Everyone seems to color their predictions with their desires.

Myself: I bought a 1.25 G4 Powerbook last November, put 1 GB of memory in it, and it rocks. I use it every day and it is powerful enough for what I do (music mostly). It will be powerful enough for me for the next 12-18 months, and that way I can skip all the inevitable problems that will surface with the rev. A G5 PowerBook, and upgrade when the rev. B dual processor 2.5 ghz. monster G5 fuel-cell, liquid cooled PowerBook is released, or whenever the price/performance ratio is compelling enough to upgrade.

Really folks, the G4 PowerBooks are great machines right now. It's going to take Apple a while to make a G5 PB that is as good on the performance/battery life ratio as the G4 is, and they would never release a product that was worse than the current line. Buy a G4 PB now and you won't be dissapointed.

Exactly - very well put. There is nothing wrong with the current G4 PowerBooks and they are excellent machines. G5 PBs will be released when they are ready to be released!

windowsblowsass
Feb 23, 2004, 08:08 PM
the g56 wont be out for several months or even a year, remember how long it took to get g3s out of apple lap tops its not going to be that long but close

windowsblowsass
Feb 23, 2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
but if the powertune 90 nm G5s are available... why would apple not use them in the powerbooks????

This has gotten absurd. Another tiny speed bumped G4... what a joke.
you cant just slap a 64 bit chip into a 32 it notebook apple has to redesign the entire computer and theyll probably change the case design too
ps all the p**ing and moning in the world isnt going to change this

MikeAtari
Feb 23, 2004, 08:27 PM
Again,
AMD has a 64 bit laptop for sale now.
Via and other motherboard makers are already building motherboards with the same characteristics that Apple needs to build for a G5, Now.

Apple is Lucky because the G5 is no where as hot or as watt hungry as the AMD chip.

It's entirely possible for Apple to technically build a DTR, at least, G5 Now.

Here's the thing.
Apple needs to remember that it's Not competing with Intel. It's competing with AMD.

The kinds of buyers of Apple, at least tech buyers, are interested in 64 bit processors, and OS X.
But, many of them would take an AMD chip,
in spit of it being loaded with WinXP,
and then build a dual boot system, with Linux.

Apple machine of course would be better,
but the longer they wait the more Lost Sales go by.

But, that's just my opinion.
I'm part of the cult, so I'll wait.
But, I'd like to see Apple continue it's Sales Growth.

dongmin
Feb 23, 2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by johnpaul191
good point. Last Fall Apple said it would be a year or more till they could get a G5 into a portable. Not to be picky but Steve Jobs really said was that Apple is trying to get a G5 into the PBs by the end of 2004.

link (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030921161035.shtml)

AidenShaw
Feb 23, 2004, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by MikeAtari

Apple needs to remember that it's Not competing with Intel. It's competing with AMD.

The kinds of buyers of Apple, at least tech buyers, are interested in 64 bit processors, and OS X.



Did you notice that Intel's new Prescott chip has the AMD64 64-bit extensions, and is compatible with Opteron/Athlon64?

Intel's still very much part of the competition.

And, BTW, most of the "tech" buyers aren't focussed on buying 64-bit systemw with 32-bit operating systems for running 32-bit applications. Only the "willy wavers" are buying 32-bit systems with 64-bit CPUs just because they see "64-bit" in the ad copy.



Originally posted by MikeAtari
But, many of them would take an AMD chip, in spit of it being loaded with WinXP

But it's Windows XP 64-Bit Edition...available now for free download (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/downloads/upgrade.asp).

When's Apple going to have 64-bit software - so far they've been mum on the topic....

ClimbingTheLog
Feb 23, 2004, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by ftaok
According to Motorola, 1.42ghz 7447A chips will cost $245 each (in quantities of 10,000). Anyone know how much G5's cost?

Motorola Press Release (http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,,3861_3238_23,00.html)

Last June word was that the PPC 970 was costing Apple 25-35% less than the moto part. News around the web is saying Apple's paying $189 for their chips from Moto now. Which just happens to be exactly 30% less than their official price.

Methinks Moto has a pricematch guarantee. Probably Apple is paying $189 for both now.

Of course there were rumors the 970 was going to cost Apple $50 a while back. Since we haven't seen the 8-way mac yet, probably that's not correct.

carrington
Feb 23, 2004, 09:37 PM
I guess it's sacrilege but there are two features I'm waiting for before I shell out for a new PowerBook ... and a G5 chip isn't one of them.

[The crowd GASPS]

For me, what's missing from the 12" PowerBook is FireWire 800. I'd love a 7200 RPM drive option as well, but I'll bite the bullet and install a new internal drive myself if need be. I can't install a new port myself, though, so I'm waiting until Apple squeezes FW800 into its smallest PowerBook before I buy one.

Besides, I'm confident that when the PowerBook is first updated with a G5 option it'll either only be in the 17" model, or maybe the 17" and a high-end 15" option. The 12" ain't getting a G5 during the first go-round ... but if it gets FW800 I'll bite.

Bilba
Feb 23, 2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by carrington
I guess it's sacrilege but there are two features I'm waiting for before I shell out for a new PowerBook ... and a G5 chip isn't one of them.

[The crowd GASPS]

For me, what's missing from the 12" PowerBook is FireWire 800. I'd love a 7200 RPM drive option as well, but I'll bite the bullet and install a new internal drive myself if need be. I can't install a new port myself, though, so I'm waiting until Apple squeezes FW800 into its smallest PowerBook before I buy one.

Besides, I'm confident that when the PowerBook is first updated with a G5 option it'll either only be in the 17" model, or maybe the 17" and a high-end 15" option. The 12" ain't getting a G5 during the first go-round ... but if it gets FW800 I'll bite.

sorry for being picky, but it seems there is only one feature you are waiting for.

hayesk
Feb 23, 2004, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by AidenShaw
When's Apple going to have 64-bit software - so far they've been mum on the topic....

Probably when it matters. It's not as if your apps get a speed boost by running on a 64 bit OS.

Snowy_River
Feb 23, 2004, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by windowsblowsass
the g56 wont be out for several months or even a year, remember how long it took to get g3s out of apple lap tops its not going to be that long but close

Not to be nit picky, but I don't think you meant that the G56 would be out within a year... ;)

Also, the G3 was released in a laptop at the same time it was released in a tower. I suspect that you meant the G4, there.

However, there is an important lesson to be learned from reviewing the cycle time from various chips. That lesson is that each and every one is different. So, there's a degree to which looking to history really won't tell us a thing about the G5.

Snowy_River
Feb 23, 2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by carrington
I guess it's sacrilege but there are two features I'm waiting for before I shell out for a new PowerBook ... and a G5 chip isn't one of them.

[The crowd GASPS]

For me, what's missing from the 12" PowerBook is FireWire 800. I'd love a 7200 RPM drive option as well, but I'll bite the bullet and install a new internal drive myself if need be. I can't install a new port myself, though, so I'm waiting until Apple squeezes FW800 into its smallest PowerBook before I buy one.

Besides, I'm confident that when the PowerBook is first updated with a G5 option it'll either only be in the 17" model, or maybe the 17" and a high-end 15" option. The 12" ain't getting a G5 during the first go-round ... but if it gets FW800 I'll bite.

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again, but I think that it would be a devastating mistake for Apple to maintain the PowerBook line with some G5s and some G4s. If they can't put the G5 into the 12", then they should discontinue the 12". And, I really can't believe that they could get it into the 17" and not into the 15"...

AidenShaw
Feb 23, 2004, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by hayesk
Probably when it matters. It's not as if your apps get a speed boost by running on a 64 bit OS.

Good reply! I agree - outside of big server apps few applications need or could use more than 4 GiB of RAM per application.

My message was to the earlier post, though, which tried to imply that the "tech savvy" were only buying 64-bit CPUs.

The truly savvy are buying 32-bit systems for their 32-bit jobs, and only looking for 64-bit systems for "where it matters".

And, of course, if it "matters" then OS X is not a contender, since it is only 32-bit.

The "pseudo-savvy", however, get all excited at seeing "64-bit" in ad copy....

ITR 81
Feb 23, 2004, 10:46 PM
I said it 6 months ago and I'll say it again.
The next PB update will be the 1.42 GHz.

I have a feeling this 1.5GHz could come to the iMac or the iBook(once the G5 comes to the PB).

ffakr
Feb 23, 2004, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by arn
I'm not sure where you got that the G4s cost more... it's probably not true.

The .09 micron PPC 970fx chips are around 65 mm^2. That's quite a bit smaller than a .13 micron PPC 7447. The 7447 is slightly more than 98 mm^2. The smaller die size means that IBM can produce more chips per wafer. IBM also tends to have much better yeilds than Motorola so there is less junk per wafer.
The 970fx _should_ cost quite a bit less than the PPC 7447.
Originally posted by a17InchFuture Okay, I'll tell you why everyone here says they are overclocked at 1.5: it was said because ITS TRUE! its just a fact, jack. Anyone who has been paying attention to Apple knows that
Overclocking is, by definition, pushing the clock speed of a processor past the vendor rating. Apple would be using overclocked G4 if, AND ONLY IF, Apple clocked the processors faster than Motorola's speed rating. This ISN'T the case. If you check the label on the processor of a dual 1.42 G4, you'll find cpus that are labeled 1.42 GHz.
The whole overclocking thing came from the fact that Apple was shipping the 1.42 when Motorola was only advertising the part as a 1.33 GHz. This doesn't mean that Motorola didn't have a 1.42 sort.. it just means that they were reserving them for Apple.
Originally posted by Ja Di ksw
crud, I didn't know they had that. How close is it now to the P4? What I mean is, before, you would take a mac's processor's speed and times it by 1.5-2 to get a window' prcessor's speed (at least, had always heard it was that, b/c of the pipelines). What is it now?
woa.. it's WAY more complicated than just that. You've got pipeline length, the number if instructions that can be executed per clock, the clock speed, the system bandwidth and efficiency, the quality of the branch prediction (Intel's is about the best there is)...
If I remember correctly, the G5 pipeline is generally listed as around 20, though in truth the pipe line is a different depth depending on what processor units are involved. The P4 is 23 stages.. Prescott P4 is 30 deep.
The G5 is more powerful than the P4 at the same clockspeed because (among other things) it can do more per clock. It's a very 'wide' processor that can do a lot of work at the same time.
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
And thus the G4 is more powerful, clock for clock, than the G5
No, the G4 isn't more powerful than a G5 at the same clock speed. The G5 has a higher IPC.. It can do more work in a given # of clocks than a G4. Some of the early benchmarks between the G4s and the G5s made the G4s look pretty good.. but that was running un-optimised G4 code. Pretty much every app thats spent a modicum of time optimising for the G5 has seen significant performance gains (except Photoshop apparently). In fact, we still haven't truely seen what the G5 can do. IBM has released the first truely optimised compiler and it's producing 30%+ faster code right out of the box. Just wait till the OS gets tuned for the G5 too.
Originally posted by dongminI think the 970fx is a big piece, but certainly not the only piece of the puzzle. Other components of the G5 motherboard (controller, memory, etc.) have to be heat-controlled as well
Apple stated at some point, wish I remembered when, that the system controllers would continue to be produced on the same process as the PPC 970. Apple should have a die shrunk chipset ready with the PPC 970fx.
Originally posted by Snow_RiverUh... shouldn't that be 170MHz? This would be a step from 1.33GHz to 1.5GHz. The 1.42GHz (which, by the way, is 80MHz less than 1.5GHz, not 90MHz) has never been in a PowerBook.The motorola press release doesn't actually mention 1.5GHz.. only the rumor stories. The press release only mentions 1.42GHz http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,,3861_3238_23,00.html
Originally posted by WizardThe Powetune 970's still have the issue of using excessive power. Its not just the processor but the whole package that can kill a notebook design.

The other issue is that at 1.5 GHz the 970's won't perform better either, so performance wise it is a wash. The article also points out htat this processor does have new power management capabilities. So it appears that there is more to the processor than fabrication imporvements.[sic] The 2GHz 970fx consumes power in the 20's. A 1.5GHz 970fx should be a very efficient processor. Also remember that the PPC 970 supports other bus mulipliers. If Apple decided that they couldn't get a .09 micron system controller to work in a notebook, they could clock it down to a third or a quarter of the CPU speed. This would be perfectly acceptable option for a first Gen G5 notebook.
Also, don't think for a second that a 1.5GHz G5 notebook wouldn't be faster than a 1.5 (or 1.42GHz) G4. Don't rely on old benchmarks of G4 tuned code on a G5 to determine the relative power. Cinebench performance on a dual 2GHz is 110% faster than a dual 1.42 after Cinebench was optimized for the G5. That's over twice the performance even though the G5 is only 40% faster by clock speed. http://www.barefeats.com/g5sum.html
Originally posted by Spinko
"The 970FX, meanwhile, consumes a mere 12.3W at 1.4GHz, paving the way for PowerBook G5s. That figure is comparable to the 7.5W a 1GHz consumption of the G4-class Motorola MPC7447 that drives the current PowerBook G4s. The 970FX's SpeedStep-style PowerTune technology will help too."

quote from "the register" http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/35057.html

The really interesting point here is that the 1.4 GHz 970fx is quite a bit cooler than the 1.4GHz 7447A. Check the Moto press release again.. http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,,3861_3238_23,00.html
They are only comitting to under 20watts at 1.42 GHz.

Originally posted by SiliconAddict[quote]Sorry but I claim BS on that statement. You obviously have never use a Pentium M device. I can rip a DVD and recompress it into a DIVX movie and the bottom of an IBM T40 laptop that is 1" thick is only slightly warm to the touch. For standard use I've been getting 4 hours off of a 1.5Ghz system. God people! Get real facts before you spout this BS hear hear. This is a shock to everyone, I know.. but Apple doesn't automatically get to make the best *everything* They aren't the spoiled kid who owns the game. P-M is a powerful processor with great thermal characteristics. There are plenty of P-M notebooks that get over 5 hours of battery life. IBM sells one (with an expanded battery pack) that gets up to 9 hours. I've used a P-M machine and it was quite fast when it was clocked up. My only complaint was that it was slow to scale from it's low power speed (1/2 the full clock speed) to the full speed under load. It made the machine stutter unless you forced it to run full speed.

Originally posted by Westside guy[quote]Admittedly those apps weren't optimized for the G5; the question is how much improvement can be reasonably expected once they are so optimized
Well, we are seeing a 30% increase in speed between gcc 3.3 and xlc... and that's just between two G5 optimized compilers. Like I mentioned before... Cinebench was getting 110% performance increase with a 40% clock speed increase... and this is running on an OS that isn't even really optimised yet. This was before xlc was finalized and released for OSX.

~Shard~
Feb 23, 2004, 11:16 PM
How long did that post take you to write? That's quite a thorough, comprehensive post! You get an A for effort from me, ffakr! Well done! :cool:

carbonmotion
Feb 23, 2004, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
I'd like to have the G5 PB for the FSB and added memory.. a 1GHz G5 PB with 4 GB of memory would be pretty useful to me. A 12" with 1.25GB? that's just silly. The perm 256 on the board is silly. At least make it removable so i can get the full 2GB in there..

And please keep the "Just get the 17" dude!" posts. I want portability and power. If i have the money to spend, why shouldn't I be able to have that?? There are many of us that get the 12" because we actually use it as it was inteneted, to travel with, not because of cost considerations.

um...get a 15" dude!

aswitcher
Feb 23, 2004, 11:54 PM
If it has to be a G4 then I really hope they do a serious price drop and tweak up many of the features. There have been many discussions on improvements besides the processor, and I guess for the right price and to switch soon rather than 6-8 months time, I could be tempted to a G4PB... shame though given code optimisation over the next few years...

mdriftmeyer
Feb 24, 2004, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by ~Shard~
How long did that post take you to write? That's quite a thorough, comprehensive post! You get an A for effort from me, ffakr! Well done! :cool:

Except Apple doesn't use IBM's Compiler they use their own custom GCC that, as of yet, they still haven't updated their enhancements back to GCC.

The compiler engineers also design with the knowledge of making sure the run-times for Java, ObjC and Carbonlibs are in harmony.

If Apple had a choice they streamline it solely for ObjC/C/ObjC++ but technologists don't always make the best politicians.

At NeXT we didn't have to concern ourselves with Legacy other than ObjC legacy from NXHost to NSHost, etc..

The team Apple has is brilliant and the leadership in Engineering is world class.

Nothing but upside with the teams they have in place.

My bet is the iMac gets the new high-end Moto and the iBook gets the highend G3/Altivec from IBM while Apple releases the 970Fx for PowerMac and reveals a time frame for the PB G5 and offers the newer G4 with price drops on the entire line to satisfy customers.

I'm targeting the PB G5 to be viewed at WWDC and released in August. I'm guessing' the focus will be turned to newer devices until WWDC.

All speculation but a good illusionist keeps one distracted.

ClimbingTheLog
Feb 24, 2004, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
Also, the G3 was released in a laptop at the same time it was released in a tower. I suspect that you meant the G4, there.

Hey, Apple doesn't even admit to the original Powerbook G3 anymore. :p

SiliconAddict
Feb 24, 2004, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by ffakr

IBM has released the first truly optimized compiler and it's producing 30%+ faster code right out of the box. Just wait till the OS gets tuned for the G5 too.



And this folks is why it will eventually pay off to wait for a G5 PowerBook. I keep reading the occasional post about how my G4 PowerBook works perfectly fine and why people are whining about G5's when the G4 runs everything perfectly fine. Well sure it does. But don't you think at some point in the next 3 years Apple is going to optimize OS X's code for the G5 to an extent that it gets that 30+/-% speed boost? At which point everyone on a G4 is going to be crying foul that Apple is leaving them in the dust. Some of you may not have problems going out and buying Apple's latest and greatest once every 2 years but if I'm going to be spending 3+ grand its got to last a while. (A while in my case being at least 3-4 years.) The jump from a G4 to a G5 is such a large leap that waiting almost seems the prudent thing to do. In my case it's excruciatingly prudent.
To quote Dr. Smith: "The pain the pain of it all."

JFreak
Feb 24, 2004, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
don't you think at some point in the next 3 years Apple is going to optimize OS X's code for the G5 to an extent that it gets that 30+/-% speed boost? At which point everyone on a G4 is going to be crying foul that Apple is leaving them in the dust.

don't you think that if you buy a G4 today, you will buy another in three years anyway. so what's the point in whining?

you buy what you need and when you need, and if you so much need the most powerful laptop, then you will surely buy another laptop within the mentioned 3 years time frame and at that time you will not care if the previous laptop was a G4 or a G5. then you will whine again wanting a G7 prototype from ibm r&d while apple has only "lowly" G6 in production.

it sounds to me that you are not in a NEED of a laptop right now, otherwise you would be quiet and buy one now.

CmdrLaForge
Feb 24, 2004, 02:28 AM
I am really happy that PB rumors are back. It was so quite on the site for a while. And now just a little piece of information that means more or less nothing and BANG! thousend of posts !

The Shadow
Feb 24, 2004, 03:22 AM
90 MHZ improvement in the last 6 months from Moto. Pathetic...except its even worse...

The article actually says:

"The chip is expected in production quantities sometime in the next 3 to 6 months."

Too pathetic for words, IMHO.:(

aswitcher
Feb 24, 2004, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by The Shadow
90 MHZ improvement in the last 6 months from Moto. Pathetic...except its even worse...

The article actually says:

"The chip is expected in production quantities sometime in the next 3 to 6 months."

Too pathetic for words, IMHO.:(

3-6...May to August... Yep, doesn't look good.

kristo
Feb 24, 2004, 05:25 AM
To be honest, what is everyone using their laptops for that requires a g5? You think you need a 64bit processor? Have the need to address 64bits of memory? You do realise that you will not gain any speed just cause the processor is 64bit....sure the processor is more mature than the G4, doing more per cycle, but the 64bit part, just ignore that, you can let it go, it doesnt matter, just put it down.

I mean, I have a 1Ghz powerbook, it rocks for what I do, I don't try to do too much rendering on it, I mean, I understand its strengths and weaknesses. I have my desktop for the hard stuff, which it excells at. Also, I just don't see the situation where a massive amount of mobile power is needed

Director "Oh my god, we havent rendered these 5 minutes of footage and we are going live at Cannes in 30 minutes"
Fearless G5 Powerbook user "Step aside, I got the POWER!!!"
*crowd gasps*
Bystander "My god, look at him address all that memory"
Bystander 2 "But what about the latency?"
Bystander "HEATHEN, the power of christ compells you, OUT!"

and so on....

Its just as simple as the right tool for the right job...

of course, if you want to pose and go

"hey baby, this is full on g5 power right here, does it do it for you?"
*girl melts*

then its important I guess....

I mean, with what I do, I can't really make this thing break a sweat (safari, terminal, mail, itunes, bittorrent) and yeah, if I was trying to render a hour long movie in final cut pro, then yeah, it would suck...

so yeah, work it out

CmdrLaForge
Feb 24, 2004, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by kristo
To be honest, what is everyone using their laptops for that requires a g5? You think you need a 64bit processor? Have the need to address 64bits of memory? You do realise that you will not gain any speed just cause the processor is 64bit....sure the processor is more mature than the G4, doing more per cycle, but the 64bit part, just ignore that, you can let it go, it doesnt matter, just put it down.

I mean, I have a 1Ghz powerbook, it rocks for what I do, I don't try to do too much rendering on it, I mean, I understand its strengths and weaknesses. I have my desktop for the hard stuff, which it excells at. Also, I just don't see the situation where a massive amount of mobile power is needed

Director "Oh my god, we havent rendered these 5 minutes of footage and we are going live at Cannes in 30 minutes"
Fearless G5 Powerbook user "Step aside, I got the POWER!!!"
*crowd gasps*
Bystander "My god, look at him address all that memory"
Bystander 2 "But what about the latency?"
Bystander "HEATHEN, the power of christ compells you, OUT!"

and so on....

Its just as simple as the right tool for the right job...

of course, if you want to pose and go

"hey baby, this is full on g5 power right here, does it do it for you?"
*girl melts*

then its important I guess....

I mean, with what I do, I can't really make this thing break a sweat (safari, terminal, mail, itunes, bittorrent) and yeah, if I was trying to render a hour long movie in final cut pro, then yeah, it would suck...

so yeah, work it out

What is your problem ?

ionas
Feb 24, 2004, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by Bilba
...Such a powerbook, with a fast HD, 1x512MB memory chip, and better Superdrive will be more than enough for me to order it the day it is annonced. The current pbook is great as is, the only problem with it is that you pay the same price for a 6-months old product.

Beside I would prefer (spam me if you want) to pay ~2000$ for such a machine, rather than ~3000$ for a first generation G5 pbook....[/B]

very good points.
what i would hope for were higher resolution displays, longer battery life and lower prices.

12"
SXGA (1280*960)
1 GHZ
512MB (2 dimms)
radeon 9600
60gb 4200 (upgradable)
slot combodrive (upgradable)
ca. 7 hours battery with internet/office usage
2 kg
$1899.-
(real good subnotebooks, and this would be one, are not cheaper but more expensive than compareable but bigger models; reason, more tech on less space)

15"
SXGA+ (1400*1050)
1.33 GHZ
512MB (1 dimm)
radeon 9600
60gb 5400 (upgradable)
slot superdrive
ca. 6 hours battery with internet/office usage
2.5 kg
$1999.-

17"
WSXGA+ (1680*1050)
1.5 GHZ
512MB (1dimm)
radeon 9700
60gb 7200 (upgradable in size)
slot superdrive
ca. 5 hours battery with internet/office usage
2.75 kg
$2499

+all thouse things you got with the actual models + backlit keyboard for all 3 models.

i would add a joystick to the BTO (like toshiba and ibm have got) - make it expensive and declare that it is only good for real pros (so stupid endusers hopefully dont buy it); cause i fact a joystick is a lot faster than a track/touchpad)


(ibooks should get the lower resolution displayes: 12" 1024, 14" 1280*960, smaller hard drives build in (40 gb) but all upgradable and max speed 5400 not 7200, the radeon 9000 not 9600, no superdrive at all (all combos), but still high battery life (both models about ca. 5-6 hours) that should still be below the 12" powerbook, cpus should be 1ghz and 1.25ghz, should be the same cpus,
a better clickpad under the touchpad would be nice, maybe one that can be programmed that it got a left and right side (for 2 button))

using standard displays would also reduce the production costs.
a pixel error free garantuee would be nice to have on each model for free.


but of course we wont see all of these changes, well, maybe almost none of them, and i ll be dissapointed :<.

so i ll wait into the future until apple brings out a notebook that is on a par with and here and there better than actual models from other manufacturers regarding display resolution, battery life, ergonomics, and weight.

the pbooks got a great OS and a great CPU and a great case, but wel, thats not all you need.

so i am waiting for a powermac g5 rev. b. and if apple doesnt bring on real hammer notebooks, i ll go and buy something else - i am not mac focused - though mac os is the best end user/workstation (and for some things it seems also server os) i know :-)

(reason enough to switch again)

ionas
Feb 24, 2004, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by MikeAtari
...
Here's the thing.
Apple needs to remember that it's Not competing with Intel. It's competing with AMD.

what a stupid pile of sh... you are talking there.

centrino, (centrino "2" and centrino celeron) technology is crushing the market since mid/end last year.

ppl stop buying stupid P4-Mobile or stupid AMD cpus for notebooks (regarding notebooks amd cpus consume too much energy and produce too much heat).

what would really be interesting is if intel put clarkman (their amd liscensed 64 bit extention) onto the pentium-m (centrino).

that would be hell for apple - cause the pentium-m beats (defacto) the G4 at the moment. (pentium m are available from 1.4-1.7 ghz atm - soon there will be speedbumps).

these cpus are used in notebooks that dont even use their fan most of the time - they are SILENT besides the harddrive which are the same apple uses - harddrives (2.5) are almost silent as well.

and they consume LESS power. you can have normal x86 notebooks with 5-7 hours running time (just look at ibm, toshiba or acer notebooks)

so WTF are you mor*n ;p talking about?
64bit in notebooks? well if you want a desktop pc that looks like a notebook - yes!

amd-64 notebooks run 2-3 hours and if you do anything but almost nothing they run even shorter and the fan starts turning - like the P4-Mobile back in days ;p.

they are just CRAP. (and a lot worse than any G4) - 64bit doesnt help anything there.

there is the first PUBLIC BETA of 64bit windows xp out - a PUBLIC BETA by microsoft - lol ;p.

so besides that 64bit will bring nothing but future proofness (thats the only real point all those g5 into powerbook whiners really have - maybe besides the point that the g5 may really be cheaper to produce, but well the g3+altivec would be even cheaper again if ibm brought that ;p).

it will bring nothing as long as there is no software.

almost the same with the G5s.
the G5 isnt so "wow" because of 64bit, it is so WOW because its FAST, the bus is fast, the system is fast, the cpu is fast. and it might be even faster if it was 32bit only ;p (even if you dont like that to hear).

but in desktop and server use i see a sense to use 64bit NOW. 4gb are not much. if you go sound or video or rendering or 3d it is eaten away fast, not talking about servers here.

johnnyjibbs
Feb 24, 2004, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
Also, the G3 was released in a laptop at the same time it was released in a tower. I suspect that you meant the G4, there.
I think the original poster was commenting on the fact that Mac laptops (i.e. iBooks) have only just left G3 processors behind (i.e. upgrading to G4s) with the implication being that there will be G4 laptops (albeit iBooks) for years to come. Just nitpicking ;)

--

Let's remember this article is mearly saying that Moto has some new G4 chips on the way. Anything to do with another G4 PowerBook is purely speculation (although my opinion is that Apple will use them, and this is not necessarily a bad thing).

I second all those people that say that the current G4 PowerBooks are very good machines - all of them.

AidenShaw
Feb 24, 2004, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by ionas
there is the first PUBLIC BETA of 64bit windows xp out - a PUBLIC BETA by microsoft - lol ;p.

This is not quite the whole truth.

Windows XP 64-Bit Edition for IA64 systems was released last winter - almost a full year ago. Windows Server 2003 64-Bit Edition (IA64) has been available for even longer. This code was developed as Windows 2000 64-Bit for the Alpha systems, so it has been in testing for a long time. (Win2K 64-bit for Alpha was released in official Win2K beta testing, but didn't ship in the Win2K final version because Alpha support was withdrawn.)

What's in "customer preview" is Windows XP 64-Bit Edition for 64-Bit Extended Systems (AMD64).

The preview is the already released 64-bit code, it's just been recompiled for the AMD64 ISA. So it isn't all new code, and it isn't a fresh 64-bit port of the 32-bit codebase - it's existing, tested code with relatively little new code (little beyond a few processor-specific support modules, like any new hardware support).


So your attempt to compare Windows XP 64-Bit for the AMD64 with the OS X Public Beta is more than a little misleading. The OS X Public Beta was a feature-incomplete early version of OS 9 grafted onto NeXT layered on FreeBSD. The AMD64 version of XP is mostly a recompile of the already released and shipping IA64 version of XP....


More info:

Download XP AMD64: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/downloads/upgrade.asp

XP IA64 Overview: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/techinfo/planning/techoverview/default.asp

Windows Server 2003 64-Bit: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/64bit/default.mspx
(including download of Windows Server 2003 64-Bit for AMD64)

Kelvin
Feb 24, 2004, 08:36 AM
I for one would want a G5 powerbook because of the new hypertransport bus. All you people complaining that G4 systems and G5 systems are comparable are on crack.

diggy
Feb 24, 2004, 08:37 AM
the ibms, now hitchachi due to a different
design are actually supposed to
run cooler than the 4200rpm standard models
in the p-book.

I think it's a price thing or a long term deal apple has or a ton of old HDs..

AidenShaw
Feb 24, 2004, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by Kelvin
I for one would want a G5 powerbook because of the new hypertransport bus.

Why?

Other than buzzword-compliance, what will be the benefit of an HT bus? Will the IDE controller run any faster? Better disk performance? Will the CardBus (PCMCIA) card be faster? Higher bandwidth from 802.11g? Faster video?

Not really.... HT might be nice for the mobo engineers (fewer "wires" needed on the mobo), but considering the limited I/O bandwidth of a laptop I don't think that it will give one iota of improved performance for the end user.

Don't get me wrong - HT is good technology. It just won't make any perceptible difference to the end-user of a laptop. IMO HT shouldn't be a "must have" feature, it's invisible infrastructure.

MikeAtari
Feb 24, 2004, 09:14 AM
Sure, I'd like a G5 today.
But, you have to remember that after the 970 is the 980, at 65 nm. This will be a great laptop chip. And, I wonder, if this isn't the chip Apple will put into their laptop. This would require no form factor change.

RichardCarletta
Feb 24, 2004, 09:32 AM
I suspect the new G4 could be used for the iBooks , eMac , and low-end iMac ( combo drive ) until the end of 2004 . Apple could update the G5 Powermacs in March to 2.5 GHZ. Once the G5 Powermacs are updated , the 20 inch iMac could be updated to a 2 GHZ G5 model . Then after that , if there is no heat issues with the 970FX , then the 15 " and 17 " Powerbooks could be updated in August otherwise expect the Powerbooks to get updated in May with the 1.5 GHZ G4 . iBooks updated with 1.5 GHZ G4 could be announced in July . If there are no heat issues with the 970FX for the Powerbooks , Apple should stop producing the G4 17 " Powerbooks during April and let their remaining inventories shrink down to 0 . Apple should stop producing the G4 15 " Powerbooks during June and let their remaining inventories shrink down to 0 . eMac could get the new 1.5 GHZ G4 in May , just in time for school purchases. After the 20 inch iMac update with a 970FX ( maybe in April ) , the low-end 15 " iMac 1.5 GHZ G4 ( combo drive ) along with the updated eMac could be released in May .

RichardCarletta
Feb 24, 2004, 09:42 AM
I suspect the new G4 could be used for the iBooks , eMac , and low-end iMac ( combo drive ) until the end of 2004 . Apple could update the G5 Powermacs in March to 2.5 GHZ. Once the G5 Powermacs are updated , the 20 inch iMac could be updated to a 2 GHZ G5 model . Then after that , if there is no heat issues with the 970FX , then the 15 " and 17 " Powerbooks could be updated in August otherwise expect the Powerbooks to get updated in May with the 1.5 GHZ G4 . iBooks updated with 1.5 GHZ G4 could be announced in July . If there are no heat issues with the 970FX for the Powerbooks , Apple should stop producing the G4 17 " Powerbooks during April and let their remaining inventories shrink down to 0 . Apple should stop producing the G4 15 " Powerbooks during June and let their remaining inventories shrink down to 0 . eMac could get the new 1.5 GHZ G4 in May , just in time for school purchases. After the 20 inch iMac update with a 970FX ( maybe in April ) , the low-end 15 " iMac 1.5 GHZ G4 ( combo drive ) along with the updated eMac could be released in May .

gopher
Feb 24, 2004, 09:48 AM
Somewhat better news has just come here:

http://www.macminute.com/2004/02/24/powerbookg5

CmdrLaForge
Feb 24, 2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by RichardCarletta
I suspect the new G4 could be used for the iBooks , eMac , and low-end iMac ( combo drive ) until the end of 2004 . Apple could update the G5 Powermacs in March to 2.5 GHZ. Once the G5 Powermacs are updated , the 20 inch iMac could be updated to a 2 GHZ G5 model . Then after that , if there is no heat issues with the 970FX , then the 15 " and 17 " Powerbooks could be updated in August otherwise expect the Powerbooks to get updated in May with the 1.5 GHZ G4 . iBooks updated with 1.5 GHZ G4 could be announced in July . If there are no heat issues with the 970FX for the Powerbooks , Apple should stop producing the G4 17 " Powerbooks during April and let their remaining inventories shrink down to 0 . Apple should stop producing the G4 15 " Powerbooks during June and let their remaining inventories shrink down to 0 . eMac could get the new 1.5 GHZ G4 in May , just in time for school purchases. After the 20 inch iMac update with a 970FX ( maybe in April ) , the low-end 15 " iMac 1.5 GHZ G4 ( combo drive ) along with the updated eMac could be released in May .


Why are you posting the same message twice ?

a17inchFuture
Feb 24, 2004, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by aswitcher
3-6...May to August... Yep, doesn't look good.

There is a reason for this. If you read the link someone posted to an article with new G5 news. An "Analyst" for someone (i think macminute) predicted that the next pb would be a g5 powerbook, and that he felt unless they planned to do other cutting edge stuff, it could come out anytime.

Which also goes well with my belief( and the belief of others who have posted) that these new G4 chips are going to be "shipping in 3-6 months" in quantities ( however, 10,000 samples isn't exactly a small handful), means that these chips are going to be used for the ibook next rev.. They just introduced the new G4 in the ibooks in Nov (?), and 3-6 months would be a perfect time table to release the next rev. And it would also be a perfect time to do the turnover from g4 to 5 for the powerbooks. Not that they will be updated at the time, but in the same vein (aka g5 comes, so ibooks get the best g4's).

Think about how well that could revive the g4 "i" line of product sales (e.g. ibooks and imacs), something people on these forums were complaining about a day or two ago.

pablos view
Feb 24, 2004, 11:21 AM
This is my first post so excuse me if I'm getting the wrong drift here but....

Maybe the 1.5Ghz G4 could signal an update to the iMac/eMac?

20" flat screen with 1.5Ghz G4?

More oomph than my current G4 PowerMac anway!!

a17inchFuture
Feb 24, 2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
Let's remember this article is mearly saying that Moto has some new G4 chips on the way. Anything to do with another G4 PowerBook is purely speculation (although my opinion is that Apple will use them, and this is not necessarily a bad thing).

I second all those people that say that the current G4 PowerBooks are very good machines - all of them.

Yes they are good machines, and the reason I originally started posting and chekcing these sites. I completely wanted one with every fiber of my being. I came everyday to see the newest info, and after getting all the news and rumors over the last 4 months, I have to say, I think teh next pb will be a G5. Or if not, its gonna be a short-lived revision for the next g4 PB's, as I think the G5 will come out/be announced before september.

You are correct, 'tis speculation only, but I can much more easily see these chips going happily into the hands of future ibook, imac, and emac owners, than i can see them in the unenthusiastic hands of the pb owners. I think those apple/"power" comp users who spend more money on a comp than any other buyer (as the "power" comps are 200 percent or more than most wintel,etc. comps.) expect the most up-to-date, highly sophisticated, and generally cutting edge. And to phsyically sit on technology out on teh open market is something I dont think apple will do. Yes they could be working out other things besides the processor, but my point remains valid nonetheless, they wouldnt release less than top technology as if it were the top tech. powerbooks are the top, and they will get the top every time they are updated, and the 970FX is the top.

So thats why I hope you are wrong!

But yes, they are beeeeeeeeautiful computers no matter which way you look at them, technically and aesthetically.

ClimbingTheLog
Feb 24, 2004, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by kristo
To be honest, what is everyone using their laptops for that requires a g5?

Portability

aka Battery life.

The PPC970FX with PowerTune should be capable of increasing battery life a good 30% over the G4 at a similar clock.

Also, Hypertransport. Not per se, but that's how Apple hooks up faster memory. Faster memory is especially important for folks doing compiles and such, which with stuff like fink, is alot of people.

Faster memory == getting work done faster == longer effective battery life.

a17inchFuture
Feb 24, 2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by a17inchFuture
Yes they are good machines, and the reason I originally started posting and chekcing these sites. I completely wanted one with every fiber of my being. I came everyday to see the newest info, and after getting all the news and rumors over the last 4 months, I have to say, I think teh next pb will be a G5. Or if not, its gonna be a short-lived revision for the next g4 PB's, as I think the G5 will come out/be announced before september.

You are correct, 'tis speculation only, but I can much more easily see these chips going happily into the hands of future ibook, imac, and emac owners, than i can see them in the unenthusiastic hands of the pb owners. I think those apple/"power" comp users who spend more money on a comp than any other buyer (as the "power" comps are 200 percent or more than most wintel,etc. comps.) expect the most up-to-date, highly sophisticated, and generally cutting edge. And to phsyically sit on technology out on teh open market is something I dont think apple will do. Yes they could be working out other things besides the processor, but my point remains valid nonetheless, they wouldnt release less than top technology as if it were the top tech. powerbooks are the top, and they will get the top every time they are updated, and the 970FX is the top.

So thats why I hope you are wrong!

But yes, they are beeeeeeeeautiful computers no matter which way you look at them, technically and aesthetically.


Of course, all of this I've said is dependent on the factoid given that these chips wont be used until 3-6 months from now. I think that may is too late for a g4 update, and that is the earliest date available. I dont see apple releasing a g4 at the end of summer and introducing the g5 three months later. All their customers would feel ripped off. And apple usually updates every 6-8 months, so if they were to "update" in may, it wouldnt ship til june or july probably, and that is why i couldnt see an update after may being a g4. And if it is, it will be shipping in may, and the next update will be g5's in oct., which I still think is too soon.

let me reitterate my main point : from the beginning of time, we have been waiting for the g5 chip to be dealt with in some way that would solve the heat and power consumption issues. That day has come and gone. The G5 powerbook is imminent. Anyone who disagrees is an non-apple owner, or has just purchased a g4 in the last year.

Just a guess/my opinion.

maxvamp
Feb 24, 2004, 12:42 PM
I fast forwarded a bit on this thread, so maybe I missed something...

I thought I saw in the article that the new 'blessed' ( read: not over clocked ) chip only used 9 watts at 1.2 GHz.

This sounds ideal for the 12" iBook, and even clocked up a bit, the 14" iBook.

Who is to say that Apple will not be releasing the PowerBooks with the G5, and then turn around and give us a really nice G4 iBook.

Also, I want to take some exception to the G3 Bashing... I own a iBook G3 - 600, and for the work I need to do on the road, I have found even that machine adaquate. We are talking about MS-Office, Macromedia MX stuff, and some programming.

While I would not do any video work on it, I have found this little unit to be one of the best computers I have ever owned.

<stepping off soapbox>

Max.

manu chao
Feb 24, 2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by ionas


centrino, (centrino "2" and centrino celeron) technology is crushing the market since mid/end last year.

ppl stop buying stupid P4-Mobile or stupid AMD cpus for notebooks (regarding notebooks amd cpus consume too much energy and produce too much heat).
...
that would be hell for apple - cause the pentium-m beats (defacto) the G4 at the moment. (pentium m are available from 1.4-1.7 ghz atm - soon there will be speedbumps).

these cpus are used in notebooks that dont even use their fan most of the time - they are SILENT besides the harddrive which are the same apple uses - harddrives (2.5) are almost silent as well.

and they consume LESS power. you can have normal x86 notebooks with 5-7 hours running time (just look at ibm, toshiba or acer notebooks)
...

The Centrino undoubtedly consumes much less power than a G4, especially when in idle. But with everybody claiming (doesn't mean it's true) that the system controller, the graphic card and the screen (everybody knows that dimming it helps a lot) also contribute considerably to the power consumption (maybe as you said, the harddrive is not important, but the iPod's harddrive is parked during each song to save energy), I'm asking myself whether part of that big energy consumption reduction of Centrino notebooks also comes from a much more efficient and maybe less powerful graphic card.

Just saying, please compare the battery time of Centrino-based notebooks using the same graphic card as a Powerbook/iBook to said Apple products.

AidenShaw
Feb 24, 2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by ClimbingTheLog
Also, Hypertransport. Not per se, but that's how Apple hooks up faster memory.

Look at http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html .

HT is used to connect the PCI slots (item 6) and embedded I/O (item 7) to the system controller (item 4).

The CPUs connect to the system controller, and the memory connects to the system controller. These are not HT connections.

aswitcher
Feb 24, 2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by a17inchFuture
There is a reason for this. If you read the link someone posted to an article with new G5 news. An "Analyst" for someone (i think macminute) predicted that the next pb would be a g5 powerbook, and that he felt unless they planned to do other cutting edge stuff, it could come out anytime.

Which also goes well with my belief( and the belief of others who have posted) that these new G4 chips are going to be "shipping in 3-6 months" in quantities ( however, 10,000 samples isn't exactly a small handful), means that these chips are going to be used for the ibook next rev.. They just introduced the new G4 in the ibooks in Nov (?), and 3-6 months would be a perfect time table to release the next rev. And it would also be a perfect time to do the turnover from g4 to 5 for the powerbooks. Not that they will be updated at the time, but in the same vein (aka g5 comes, so ibooks get the best g4's).

Think about how well that could revive the g4 "i" line of product sales (e.g. ibooks and imacs), something people on these forums were complaining about a day or two ago.

I guess...but for me the bottom line is that it could be anything up to 6 months by this prediction until I switch to a Mac because I will be keeping it 3-4 years or even longer, and I don't want old technology when new is just on the horizon.

If the iMac 20" anniversary edition appears in the meantime with a G5 I might be tempted away from a portable... not sure if this would be a good or bad thing

Bilba
Feb 24, 2004, 01:42 PM
damn you Apple....

I just placed an order for the 1.25 15" pbook....
I was fighting it for too long and having no Mac has been too hard.

This is how I rationalized the order (for those who are interested).
1) I don't think G5 will come out in the next 1-2 monts
2) It seems that the new revision of the G4 is not that impressive, AND if it is in fact meant for the powerbook it seems like it will also take 1 or more months to happen.
3) I am currently doing my last semester at college, and I need a laptop to write few papers, code, and do a computer music class project. In short, I prefer a G4 laptop while in college than a G5 machine afterward.
4) I am going away to visit home during Spring break in two weeks and having a laptop for the long flight/doing some work while I am away will be rather nice.
5) I am upgrading from a the 20gig/dvd drive/500Mhz tibook, so I am expecting a nice boost in performance.
6) I got a good deal via the Developer store, so I should be able to sell it for a minor loss if I'll choose to do so and upgrade later on.

As a result I figured out that it is more than likely that neither the G5 or the new G4 will not happen before I am back from my trip, which at that point I will NEED a laptop. So why not order it today rather than in 4 weeks and enjoy it now?

I hope I have made the right decision. The only things that can happen that will ruin it for me are (In worse to least worse order, again for those who care):
1) Apple will announce G5 powerbook, which will cost the same as the current model AND will be available for delivery during late March. (Very unlikely).
2) Apple will announce the new G4 which comes with 7200 harddrive and x4 superdrive and 1x512mb memory and better screen AND cost either the same or less than the current model AND will be available for shipment arround late March. (Also unlikely, given the late report of availablility in 3-5 months).
3) Apple just drops the price of the current model in 11 days by more than 150$. If it is less than that, I won't care. I figured out its worth me that much to have the machine with me during my trip.

That's it. My longest post in macrumors, which probably no one cares about. Well, maybe it will help others who consider wait vs. buy now.

P.S if any of you think that my logic is faulty, please let me know. There is still time to cancel it and change my rationale :)

BTW: where can I get good and low priced x2 dvd-r media ? :cool:

hayesk
Feb 24, 2004, 01:53 PM
Bilba, I would say your logic is right on. You want a PowerBook to use now, and you bought one - good for you!

The point that I really liked is - even if the G5 is announced in March, we probably won't be able to buy one until months from then.

I have the luxury of waiting. I have an iBook 466 which is ok for now, so I have decided to wait - when the next PB is announced, I will probably buy the existing model with an end-of-life discount. If it is a G5, I'll order one and wait, but I really think it will be another G4.

iPC
Feb 24, 2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by hayesk
Bilba, I would say your logic is right on. You want a PowerBook to use now, and you bought one - good for you!

The point that I really liked is - even if the G5 is announced in March, we probably won't be able to buy one until months from then.

I have the luxury of waiting. I have an iBook 466 which is ok for now, so I have decided to wait - when the next PB is announced, I will probably buy the existing model with an end-of-life discount. If it is a G5, I'll order one and wait, but I really think it will be another G4.
I have to agree. Buying for your needs now is much better than "it would be so cool if I could yxz..." etc.

Bravo!

Although I would like a 1.25ghz with combo drive and 2gb of RAM right now... but the ibook is good enough for now...

*sigh*

thin wallet disease can sure suck sometimes!

maxvamp
Feb 24, 2004, 04:07 PM
I just got done building an AMD64 machine. I have spent several days tweaking, and adjusting. Installing programs, and adjusting the BIOS.

After all is said and done, I go back to my little iBook, and I happily get done doing what I was there to do. Sure I can play games on the PC, but I know that at some time in the near future, I will have to tweak some more, or compensate for something I have installed, and over time, I will eventually have to scrub WindowsXp, and reinstall everything.

The amount of productivity I would normally lose on a PC is somewhat high, and as such, there are certain things I do not do on a PC. Likewise, there are things I do not do on a MAC ( lets be fair here. In my case Games seem better on a PC ).

My point is that I have a 600MHz iBook that I can achieve a slightly higher amount of productivity from, and it suites my needs for most of my tasks. Yes, it would be nice to get a G5 Powerbook, but in reality, I will not buy another laptop until this one dies. At that point, I would buy whatever is availible at the time.

I suggest anyone who needs a laptop now do the same. You will most likely get three to five years of really good use from whatever you get today. That is nothing to sneeze at.

Max.

john123
Feb 25, 2004, 12:28 AM
You know, I have to say that I think the current crop of PowerBooks is not that impressive. And I say this fully aware that I posted in some forum here about half a year ago that the current crop of PowerBooks is a "good value."

The issue, truly, comes down to speed. They just aren't very fast for the way that OS X is designed. Case in point, compare file browsing in the Finder and other tasks in OS 9 vs OS X. I have a PowerBook 1Ghz but, when in X rather than 9, I very much miss the speedy Finder interface. Absent Apple providing an option to turn off a lot of the stuff that slows down the Finder (e.g., antialiased fonts), the only other solution is faster chips.

When Apple creates a machine that can scroll through thousands of files, go through hierarchical menus, and perform similar tasks as fast in OS X as my 1Ghz PowerBook can do it in OS 9, then I'll be a candidate to upgrade.

Tomaz
Feb 25, 2004, 01:37 AM
This is my first posting in this forum.
I own a Dell notebook at the moment and decided to switch to powerbook. I'm actually not really in a rush, but can't wait to switch cause I really started to hate the windows system. So I don't wanna wait till september with buying a new pb, I kinda hope that they will release a quicker g4 very soon before the big upgrade to g5. Since the processor speed upgrade will not be huge, is there a chance we'll get a faster graphics adapter? Radeon 9700 or even 9800 maybe ?
That would be my wishlist: ~1.5GHz and ATI 9700 at least. Then I'm ordering!! Can't wait! :)

john123
Feb 25, 2004, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by Tomaz
This is my first posting in this forum.
I own a Dell notebook at the moment and decided to switch to powerbook. I'm actually not really in a rush, but can't wait to switch cause I really started to hate the windows system. So I don't wanna wait till september with buying a new pb, I kinda hope that they will release a quicker g4 very soon before the big upgrade to g5. Since the processor speed upgrade will not be huge, is there a chance we'll get a faster graphics adapter? Radeon 9700 or even 9800 maybe ?
That would be my wishlist: ~1.5GHz and ATI 9700 at least. Then I'm ordering!! Can't wait! :)

I can't imagine the 9700 not appearing in the next crop of PowerBooks...

aswitcher
Feb 25, 2004, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by john123
I can't imagine the 9700 not appearing in the next crop of PowerBooks...

Yep. If its just a G4 tweak then they are going to have to wack on the upgrades to make it look more than the bandaid it would be. New screens (probably quite likely after last years fiasco), new graphics cards, at least half a gig ram standard, bigger base harddisks (maybe faster), BT and AE as standard on most configs?, maybe Appleworks as standard (unlikely), faster CD/DVD...

I would prefer to wait a few more months and get the real deal in the shape of the G5...but I've got use to disappointement and waiting :D

FinnishFlash
Feb 25, 2004, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by john123
I can't imagine the 9700 not appearing in the next crop of PowerBooks...
But can the G4 feed the 9700 to it's full potential?

I'm going to sell my G5 DP 1.8GHz when the next round of Powerbook updates arrive. I've noticed I really don't use more than 25% of it's power 99% of the time.

Tomaz
Feb 25, 2004, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by FinnishFlash
But can the G4 feed the 9700 to it's full potential?

I'm going to sell my G5 DP 1.8GHz when the next round of Powerbook updates arrive. I've noticed I really don't use more than 25% of it's power 99% of the time.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Of course it's not nice to buy a new notebook and 6 months later, the new generation comes out. But I'll be using my powerbook for MS Office, iTunes, iPhoto, iDVD and Internet. That's it. I don't play Unreal or do rendering or video encoding. I don't think that a g5 is necessary for that. Also I'm afraid that the first generation g5-powerbooks will have some issues that will be solved in later generations. I think I prefer the last generation of the g4 over the first generation of g5. Tell me if I'm wrong....

~Shard~
Feb 25, 2004, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Tomaz
That's exactly what I'm thinking. Of course it's not nice to buy a new notebook and 6 months later, the new generation comes out. But I'll be using my powerbook for MS Office, iTunes, iPhoto, iDVD and Internet. That's it. I don't play Unreal or do rendering or video encoding. I don't think that a g5 is necessary for that. Also I'm afraid that the first generation g5-powerbooks will have some issues that will be solved in later generations. I think I prefer the last generation of the g4 over the first generation of g5. Tell me if I'm wrong....

That's a fair point - lots of time people don't realize that they don't NEED a G5 for what they want to do with their machine. They just figure since it's the latest and greatest, they better have it! Obviously there are many people out there who do intense video encoding, etc. who probably could use that 3 GHz G5 right now, but for a fair percentage of users, the G4 would probably do everything they need - I know I'm in that boat.

a17inchFuture
Feb 25, 2004, 11:11 AM
So I am reading macosrumors.net today, and they seem pretty confident that the new motorola chips are to be used in the next rev of pb's, which they say is literally around the corner.

But didn't the article say the chips wouldn't be ready for mass usage until 3-6 months from now? Wouldn't that be a bit long for the next pbook updates? And wouldn't it put the next pbook (prob a g5) on th back burner until at least 2005? I don't think they would update the g4 pbook, and then three months later pull a switch to g5? I think the people who just bought a g4 would be pissed, one of whom will probably be me.

And as a side note: Isn't macosrumors.net usually wrong?

Snowy_River
Feb 25, 2004, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by a17inchFuture
And as a side note: Isn't macosrumors.net usually wrong?


I presume that you mean 'macosrumors.com', as 'macosrumors.net' doesn't exist. And, yes, MOSR is known for their poor track record. It's been said by some that they make up rumors just to boost their site visitation...
:rolleyes:

aswitcher
Feb 25, 2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by a17inchFuture
SNIP

But didn't the article say the chips wouldn't be ready for mass usage until 3-6 months from now? Wouldn't that be a bit long for the next pbook updates? And wouldn't it put the next pbook (prob a g5) on th back burner until at least 2005? I don't think they would update the g4 pbook, and then three months later pull a switch to g5? I think the people who just bought a g4 would be pissed, one of whom will probably be me.

SNIP

Yep, so its either goign to appear summer NH or a revamp G4, with the G5 perhaps MacWorld 2005...

john123
Feb 25, 2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by ~Shard~
That's a fair point - lots of time people don't realize that they don't NEED a G5 for what they want to do with their machine. They just figure since it's the latest and greatest, they better have it! Obviously there are many people out there who do intense video encoding, etc. who probably could use that 3 GHz G5 right now, but for a fair percentage of users, the G4 would probably do everything they need - I know I'm in that boat.

I think this line of logic, while not altogether "inaccurate," is nevertheless somewhat spurious. Granted, most folks don't do high-power video stuff with crazy codecs and the like. At the same time, though, there is a speed gain that can be appreciated by even the novice user with a faster machine. I myself loathe how clunky OS X is in Finder browsing relative to OS 9, and that alone is justification to me to get a faster computer when the percentage increase is sufficient.

gopher
Feb 25, 2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by john123
You know, I have to say that I think the current crop of PowerBooks is not that impressive. And I say this fully aware that I posted in some forum here about half a year ago that the current crop of PowerBooks is a "good value."

The issue, truly, comes down to speed. They just aren't very fast for the way that OS X is designed. Case in point, compare file browsing in the Finder and other tasks in OS 9 vs OS X. I have a PowerBook 1Ghz but, when in X rather than 9, I very much miss the speedy Finder interface. Absent Apple providing an option to turn off a lot of the stuff that slows down the Finder (e.g., antialiased fonts), the only other solution is faster chips.

When Apple creates a machine that can scroll through thousands of files, go through hierarchical menus, and perform similar tasks as fast in OS X as my 1Ghz PowerBook can do it in OS 9, then I'll be a candidate to upgrade.

I have no trouble with my 1.33 Ghz Powerbook G4 with Mac OS X's speed. Most of the time the computer is waiting for me to give it the next command. It is incredibly spiffy.

john123
Feb 25, 2004, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by gopher
I have no trouble with my 1.33 Ghz Powerbook G4 with Mac OS X's speed. Most of the time the computer is waiting for me to give it the next command. It is incredibly spiffy.

Yeah, I remember when the Quadra 650 with its blazing 33Mhz 68040 was something I drooled at, too.

"Fast" is a relative term. Compare your 1.33Ghz PowerBook's Finder navigation with Finder navigation in OS 9 on a machine that runs at half the clockspeed. You'll find the latter machine, despite its slower processor, to be much faster at these tasks.

johnnyjibbs
Feb 26, 2004, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by john123
I think this line of logic, while not altogether "inaccurate," is nevertheless somewhat spurious. Granted, most folks don't do high-power video stuff with crazy codecs and the like. At the same time, though, there is a speed gain that can be appreciated by even the novice user with a faster machine. I myself loathe how clunky OS X is in Finder browsing relative to OS 9, and that alone is justification to me to get a faster computer when the percentage increase is sufficient.
A lot of this waiting is due to the 4200rpm hard drives in PowerBooks. Mind you, OS X is very fast on my machine (10.3.2 seems faster than 3.1 and much faster than 10.2.7 and 8 too) with no lag whatsoever. Finder browsing is quicker than our new Dell desktop at home with Windows XP.

eric67
Feb 26, 2004, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by ClimbingTheLog
Portability

aka Battery life.

The PPC970FX with PowerTune should be capable of increasing battery life a good 30% over the G4 at a similar clock.

Also, Hypertransport. Not per se, but that's how Apple hooks up faster memory. Faster memory is especially important for folks doing compiles and such, which with stuff like fink, is alot of people.

Faster memory == getting work done faster == longer effective battery life.
according to respective Technotes, the new Moto 7447A @1.5GHz is anyway using more power than the PPC970fx @ 2GHz...so you see what is coming.....
according to croquer.free.fr :
- the 7447A will only be used in teh iBook revision (probably available for September 2004)
- the PB G5 is entering qualification step, and should be available, if everything goes fine, in 12 weeks from now on, so, let's bet that Steve will have something new to announce for the WWDC...

the PM G5 revision is still expected for end feb-1st week march

ionas
Feb 26, 2004, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by eric67

the PM G5 revision is still expected for end feb-1st week march

who is expecting them?

i want them, but i dont know when they ll be released, so i cant expect them.

IndyGopher
Feb 26, 2004, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by oomega1
omg if they put another g4 pb i'm gonna go with PC, doom3 is coming out and i ain't gonna wait. Stupid plan in my opinion i know a lot of PC users who wanted to convert but not at the cost of doom3, i might of waited till summer but not near the end of winter which is gonna seem unlikely with a g4 update. I bet if the g4 update is now it wont be until quarter 4 of dec. or next year quarter 1 to get a pb g5. And computers aren't something you update every 6 months. so i'd probably just get a g5 pb rev 2. I'm so pissed at this rumor now. =/. Waited since last year of august.
You mean the end of 2004? When the CEO said it would be released? Good luck with your PC.
I'm not even going to comment on how the Doom 3 quip makes you sound.

stockscalper
Feb 26, 2004, 09:36 AM
The new G4 draws 20 watts of power at 1.42 mhz; the 970FX only 7 at 1.6 mhz. Plus the 970 has a much faster bus and can utilize faster ram. It will pay all Powerbook users to wait for the G5 chip. The G4 is only a bandaid.

takao
Feb 26, 2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by IndyGopher
You mean the end of 2004? When the CEO said it would be released? Good luck with your PC.
I'm not even going to comment on how the Doom 3 quip makes you sound.

how long are they announcing Doom 3 already ? a few years ?
i think they will delay again....
if it was released last year it would have been groundbraking...but now it looks like every new game...and gameplay will be the same like in every doom game ...
processor speed isn't important for gaming...a fast graphics card is the key

numediaman
Feb 26, 2004, 10:11 AM
Chicago Tribune has a nice plug for Dell this morning:

Dell Steps Into New Arena
. . . Dell's Inspiron XPS (3.4 gHz Pentium 4 with Mobility Radeon 9700 graphics chip and a 15.4 inch screen) will start at about $2800.

and Apple is introducing what exactly?

john123
Feb 26, 2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
A lot of this waiting is due to the 4200rpm hard drives in PowerBooks. Mind you, OS X is very fast on my machine (10.3.2 seems faster than 3.1 and much faster than 10.2.7 and 8 too) with no lag whatsoever. Finder browsing is quicker than our new Dell desktop at home with Windows XP.

It's still the fault of OS X for being so hard drive intensive then. Like I said, I'm comparing OS 9 to OS X on an identical machine....

Bilba
Feb 26, 2004, 11:08 AM
I don't think you need to compare OS 9 vs. OS X on the same machine. It is like me running Windows 3.11 on my Pentium 4 computer, obviously 3.11 will run faster than XP, but it is because the OS gives you less and thus requires less processing power.

Compare old computer running OS 9 vs. new machine running OS X, I believe you will find that snapiness is about the same, only now you are getting much more advanced OS.

a17inchFuture
Feb 26, 2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by eric67
according to respective Technotes, the new Moto 7447A @1.5GHz is anyway using more power than the PPC970fx @ 2GHz...so you see what is coming.....
according to croquer.free.fr :
- the 7447A will only be used in teh iBook revision (probably available for September 2004)
- the PB G5 is entering qualification step, and should be available, if everything goes fine, in 12 weeks from now on, so, let's bet that Steve will have something new to announce for the WWDC...

the PM G5 revision is still expected for end feb-1st week march

The direct translation of the last line is "8-12 weeks if all goes well".

8-12 weeks. I can wait only 16 weeks at most. When would they be announced/available for purchase if all goes well after those 8-12 weeks?

a17inchFuture
Feb 26, 2004, 12:08 PM
Also, another question I have would be, if the new g5 pbook were to be announced on the opening day of the wwdc (june 28th) when would one be able to buy it through the website? Immediately?

Or weeks later? Days later?

john123
Feb 26, 2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Bilba
I don't think you need to compare OS 9 vs. OS X on the same machine. It is like me running Windows 3.11 on my Pentium 4 computer, obviously 3.11 will run faster than XP, but it is because the OS gives you less and thus requires less processing power.

Compare old computer running OS 9 vs. new machine running OS X, I believe you will find that snapiness is about the same, only now you are getting much more advanced OS.

For starters, the "snappiness" on my beige G3/266 in OS 9 is often in excess of that on my PowerBook G4/1Ghz in OS X.

Second, I think the comparison on the same machine is entirely fair. What you call "features" I call, in many cases, drains on performance. I prefer OS 9 fonts to OS X fonts, for example. I prefer the Apple menu to the Dock.

gopher
Feb 27, 2004, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by john123
For starters, the "snappiness" on my beige G3/266 in OS 9 is often in excess of that on my PowerBook G4/1Ghz in OS X.

Second, I think the comparison on the same machine is entirely fair. What you call "features" I call, in many cases, drains on performance. I prefer OS 9 fonts to OS X fonts, for example. I prefer the Apple menu to the Dock.

That says your Mac OS X needs optimization that you have not given it. Much the same as Mac OS 9 needs a rebuild of the desktop and assurance that extensions don't conflict Mac OS X needs repair permissions (especially if you try to run 9 applications on the same computer in Classic or booting into 9), running overnight, and periodic emptying the cache. An update of prebinding may be necessary after some software installation too. To see more, visit:

http://www.macmaps.com/Macosxspeed.html

stockscalper
Feb 27, 2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by numediaman
Chicago Tribune has a nice plug for Dell this morning:

Dell Steps Into New Arena
. . . Dell's Inspiron XPS (3.4 gHz Pentium 4 with Mobility Radeon 9700 graphics chip and a 15.4 inch screen) will start at about $2800.

and Apple is introducing what exactly?

What they fail to tell you about this new Dell is that it draws 100 watts of power and gets so hot you can fry an egg on it. Plus, it's thick as a brick and has ugly cooling vents all around the sides that constantly blow out hot air. I'd rather have a Pismo than one of these p.o.s.

john123
Feb 27, 2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by gopher
That says your Mac OS X needs optimization that you have not given it. Much the same as Mac OS 9 needs a rebuild of the desktop and assurance that extensions don't conflict Mac OS X needs repair permissions (especially if you try to run 9 applications on the same computer in Classic or booting into 9), running overnight, and periodic emptying the cache. An update of prebinding may be necessary after some software installation too. To see more, visit:

http://www.macmaps.com/Macosxspeed.html

Sorry, but you're wrong. I optimize my system with a certain level of neurosis. I repair permissions far more often than is necessary, and even though I leave my Mac on and awake most nights, I pretty regularly run the nightly/weekly/monthly maintenance scripts. And yes, I've updated the prebinding too -- both through utilities and in the terminal.

And OS X is still slower.

CalfCanuck
Feb 28, 2004, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by a17inchFuture
Also, another question I have would be, if the new g5 pbook were to be announced on the opening day of the wwdc (june 28th) when would one be able to buy it through the website? Immediately?

Or weeks later? Days later?
Regardless of when it ships, expect a healthy wait for units to ship to all the initial orders. Just from looking at this website, you can see the pent up demand for the G5 PB.

Canon came out with a new digital SLR camera in early 2003 (the 10D) and it took about 8 months to meet all the pent up demand - of course the waiting time decreased the longer it had been out, but it was still there.

So it might take Apple a couple of months to clear the backlog and get down to reasonable shipping times.

CmdrLaForge
Feb 28, 2004, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by CalfCanuck
Regardless of when it ships, expect a healthy wait for units to ship to all the initial orders. Just from looking at this website, you can see the pent up demand for the G5 PB.

Canon came out with a new digital SLR camera in early 2003 (the 10D) and it took about 8 months to meet all the pent up demand - of course the waiting time decreased the longer it had been out, but it was still there.

So it might take Apple a couple of months to clear the backlog and get down to reasonable shipping times.

And this maybe very true for customers outside the US as we can see on the iPod mini !!!

aswitcher
Feb 28, 2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by CalfCanuck
Regardless of when it ships, expect a healthy wait for units to ship to all the initial orders. Just from looking at this website, you can see the pent up demand for the G5 PB.

Canon came out with a new digital SLR camera in early 2003 (the 10D) and it took about 8 months to meet all the pent up demand - of course the waiting time decreased the longer it had been out, but it was still there.

So it might take Apple a couple of months to clear the backlog and get down to reasonable shipping times.

Yep, but at least I would know what I was getting here in the antipodes, and it would be better than not knowing or buying a machine that soon gets seriously superceded.

Sedulous
Feb 29, 2004, 04:05 PM
I dunno, there are already pipe-like structures in my Powerbook G4 (carrying heat from heatsink). Maybe the coolidgy stuff will work using these "pipes" but modified to carry liquid?

a17inchFuture
Feb 29, 2004, 05:18 PM
Will someone please read the question carefully. I posed the question that way cause I am NOT curious about when it will ship!

I want to know when people think it will be online purchaseable, because the 28th is dangerously close to the 30th, aka the last day when one can buy with the edu discount.

So, any actual answers this time, or are we not gonna read this message carefully enough either?

Photorun
Feb 29, 2004, 06:39 PM
Everyone just needs to get a grip here. July isn't that far off for the new new Powerbooks being introduced. Mind you, they wont ship until Fall like the PowerMacs, I'd rather a 1.5 tide some who don't need raw power over than be sitting at 1.3 for six months!

gopher
Feb 29, 2004, 07:01 PM
Sorry, but you're wrong. I optimize my system with a certain level of neurosis. I repair permissions far more often than is necessary, and even though I leave my Mac on and awake most nights, I pretty regularly run the nightly/weekly/monthly maintenance scripts. And yes, I've updated the prebinding too -- both through utilities and in the terminal.

And OS X is still slower.

John,
Then I don't know what to say except punt. Something on your machine is making it slower that isn't on my Powerbook G3/233 with 512k backside or my Flat Panel iMac 800 Mhz. On my 17" Powerbook, well I can't say since I can't boot into Mac OS 9!

woolfgang
Feb 29, 2004, 09:07 PM
John,
Then I don't know what to say except punt. Something on your machine is making it slower that isn't on my Powerbook G3/233 with 512k backside or my Flat Panel iMac 800 Mhz. On my 17" Powerbook, well I can't say since I can't boot into Mac OS 9!

There is no excuse besides a system or hardware problem that one's mac should run faster on 9 then X. Period.

john123
Mar 1, 2004, 02:28 AM
There is no excuse besides a system or hardware problem that one's mac should run faster on 9 then X. Period.

Dude, you don't know what you're talking about. I've used X and 9 on many, many machines. 9 is simply a faster OS when it comes to Finder browsing tasks.

It's this brainwashing of "whatever Apple says is gospel" that makes Mac people seem so fanatical and overly biased to Windows folks...

woolfgang
Mar 1, 2004, 01:35 PM
Dude, you don't know what you're talking about. I've used X and 9 on many, many machines. 9 is simply a faster OS when it comes to Finder browsing tasks.

It's this brainwashing of "whatever Apple says is gospel" that makes Mac people seem so fanatical and overly biased to Windows folks...

As soon as you begin a sentence with "Dude[Where's My Car?]" you're showing your hand and your IQ. I don't except everything from Apple as gospel and have criticised Apple many times over the years. I've also used both for years and stand by what I and the others have said: When operating properly, OSX is faster in every way.

john123
Mar 1, 2004, 06:39 PM
As soon as you begin a sentence with "Dude[Where's My Car?]" you're showing your hand and your IQ. I don't except everything from Apple as gospel and have criticised Apple many times over the years. I've also used both for years and stand by what I and the others have said: When operating properly, OSX is faster in every way.

First off, if you want to discuss IQ, you might try spelling the word "accept" correctly rather than using its homonym "except." This is aside from the fact that, in IQ terms, I'm in the top 1% of the population. Speaking of showing one's hand, it's rather ignorant of you to assume that because I use a colloquial term you associate with people of lesser intelligence that I myself am unintelligent. A class in logic would do you some good.

Enough about IQ. You clearly don't understand what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the GUI (that's an acronym that stands for graphical user interface). The Finder is, for all intents and purposes, a GUI. It translates the UNIX command structure for you, the user, into a pretty interface.

Now really, you can't argue that OS X's GUI is faster than OS 9's GUI on the same machine. You're the first person I've ever encountered that has even tried to make this argument. Most OS X supporters respond that OS X makes up for its slower GUI by speeding up other tasks, its use of preemptive multitasking, its lower incidence of crashes, etc.

If you're in doubt, why don't you try some experiments yourself? There is a program called "Let1KWindowsBloom" -- you can download it here:
http://www.vgg.com/rob/WindowsBloom.html
The program does as you might expect from its name: it opens and closes a window 1000 times. Compare OS X to OS 9. Windows opening and closing is a function of the GUI.

Next try taking 10,000 small files and putting them into a folder. Do it on OS 9 and OS X. Scroll through them in each OS. That, too, is a function of the GUI.

Now try making an alias of your hard drive and put it in an accessible place (the Apple menu in OS 9, or the Dock in OS X. Or you can use FruitMenu in OS X if you like). Go through the hierarchical menus in each...try going a few layers deep. Especially try a folder with lots and lots of items in it. Or better, a folder with a lot of folders in it, with each folder having a lot of items in it. Again, this is all a function of the GUI.

These are the kinds of things I'm talking about, and they are well documented. I am not arguing that OS X does not offer productivity gains for some individuals. What I am arguing is that file browsing and navigation is a well-known and documented shortcoming of OS X compared to OS 9, which is why programs like NetFinder have a substantial following.

macdong
Mar 1, 2004, 07:06 PM
you are absolutely right, that OS 9's GUI works faster than OS X.
however, OS 9 also slows down considerably when you have a lot of extensions loaded.
and if you take into account of all the animation OS X performs when opening and closing windows, it's actually not that much different.
plus, these two operating systems have totally different structures.
so, what do you say let's stop comparing them already? :)

edit: by the way, woolfgang, it really isn't appropriate to discuss IQ.

First off, if you want to discuss IQ, you might try spelling the word "accept" correctly rather than using its homonym "except." This is aside from the fact that, in IQ terms, I'm in the top 1% of the population. Speaking of showing one's hand, it's rather ignorant of you to assume that because I use a colloquial term you associate with people of lesser intelligence that I myself am unintelligent. A class in logic would do you some good.

Enough about IQ. You clearly don't understand what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the GUI (that's an acronym that stands for graphical user interface). The Finder is, for all intents and purposes, a GUI. It translates the UNIX command structure for you, the user, into a pretty interface.

Now really, you can't argue that OS X's GUI is faster than OS 9's GUI on the same machine. You're the first person I've ever encountered that has even tried to make this argument. Most OS X supporters respond that OS X makes up for its slower GUI by speeding up other tasks, its use of preemptive multitasking, its lower incidence of crashes, etc.

If you're in doubt, why don't you try some experiments yourself? There is a program called "Let1KWindowsBloom" -- you can download it here:
http://www.vgg.com/rob/WindowsBloom.html
The program does as you might expect from its name: it opens and closes a window 1000 times. Compare OS X to OS 9. Windows opening and closing is a function of the GUI.

Next try taking 10,000 small files and putting them into a folder. Do it on OS 9 and OS X. Scroll through them in each OS. That, too, is a function of the GUI.

Now try making an alias of your hard drive and put it in an accessible place (the Apple menu in OS 9, or the Dock in OS X. Or you can use FruitMenu in OS X if you like). Go through the hierarchical menus in each...try going a few layers deep. Especially try a folder with lots and lots of items in it. Or better, a folder with a lot of folders in it, with each folder having a lot of items in it. Again, this is all a function of the GUI.

These are the kinds of things I'm talking about, and they are well documented. I am not arguing that OS X does not offer productivity gains for some individuals. What I am arguing is that file browsing and navigation is a well-known and documented shortcoming of OS X compared to OS 9, which is why programs like NetFinder have a substantial following.

gopher
Mar 1, 2004, 07:44 PM
you are absolutely right, that OS 9's GUI works faster than OS X.
however, OS 9 also slows down considerably when you have a lot of extensions loaded.
and if you take into account of all the animation OS X performs when opening and closing windows, it's actually not that much different.
plus, these two operating systems have totally different structures.
so, what do you say let's stop comparing them already? :)

edit: by the way, woolfgang, it really isn't appropriate to discuss IQ.

I might add file navigation in Mac OS X is quicker. Multicolumn Finder for me is much faster than having to open triangles on folders, or double clicking folders ad infinitum. And thanks to Panther's file searching, finding files is quicker through the toolbar. People who have trouble with Panther's GUI slowing them down find that it really requires more optimization on older machines:

http://www.macmaps.com/Macosxspeed.html

but once optimized can get the GUI running just as fast as 9.

ionas
Mar 1, 2004, 08:01 PM
The Centrino undoubtedly consumes much less power than a G4, especially when in idle. But with everybody claiming (doesn't mean it's true) that the system controller, the graphic card and the screen (everybody knows that dimming it helps a lot) also contribute considerably to the power consumption (maybe as you said, the harddrive is not important, but the iPod's harddrive is parked during each song to save energy), I'm asking myself whether part of that big energy consumption reduction of Centrino notebooks also comes from a much more efficient and maybe less powerful graphic card.

Just saying, please compare the battery time of Centrino-based notebooks using the same graphic card as a Powerbook/iBook to said Apple products.

1. less powerfull gfx card? do you mean the 5200 is faster than ati 9000 / 9200? you are wrong then.

2. more power consuming? while the 9700 mobility takes a lot more power and produces a lot more heat it seems, the 9600mobility is not that hungry,
there are normal x86 notebooks (based on pentium-m/centrino) out that use the 9600mobility (by compaq/hp, asus and other brands) - those run maybe half an hour less (so 5 1/2 and not 6 hours; how long does a powerbook run again?

the talk about those hotty x86 notebooks that run on battery only one hour are one year old and older, and still ppl clain this. - it is just not true anymore, you can get systems from 1000-2000 eur that perform very well - just the OS sux a lot (yes and linux sux too for normal end users))

john123
Mar 2, 2004, 01:14 AM
I might add file navigation in Mac OS X is quicker. Multicolumn Finder for me is much faster than having to open triangles on folders, or double clicking folders ad infinitum. And thanks to Panther's file searching, finding files is quicker through the toolbar. People who have trouble with Panther's GUI slowing them down find that it really requires more optimization on older machines:

http://www.macmaps.com/Macosxspeed.html

but once optimized can get the GUI running just as fast as 9.

But this again refers to efficiency of the user experience, not the speed of the mechanical operations themselves...

spook
Mar 2, 2004, 02:25 PM
I agree with what John is saying, thou I waver slightly between both camps, I'm a long time user of the Mac OSX, pre-system 7 and have only just really started using OSX in the last month

I do find somethings better in OSX but I think the simplicity of Mac OS is sometimed easier, but when switching between them both Mac OS does look dated, but that is LOOKS.

Multi column viewing, looks great again and for somethings, is great, eg viewing different file types, creation modified dates, but for other things it can be a pain in the arse especially when navigate many folders but that could just be my inexperience

diggy
Apr 20, 2004, 09:22 AM
can't believe the 12 " PBS still have no FW 800...
you'd think if there could only be one FW
they would make it 800 with an adapter(I know)
to use 400....

I was ready to sell my 15" but now no.

patriotn11
Apr 20, 2004, 10:30 AM
can't believe the 12 " PBS still have no FW 800...

I was ready to sell my 15" but now no.


12" loaded--756 total 256 & 512, S/D, Mac Office 2004, extended warr.

15" loaded-512 1 slot, 128vr, 80g 5400, ext warr, Mac Office 2004 b/l keys

17" loaded-512mem 1 slot 128vr, 80g 5400, ext warr, Mac Office 2004 b/l keys

don't really travel, dvd watching, web, book writing, photo, burning, couch surfin........

is the unev latch on the 15" really a bad thing
is the non-800 fire on the 12" that bad
is the screen on the 17" to big and a long turn warr issue

any advice, I'm going for the plunge today, joining the following :D

~Shard~
Apr 20, 2004, 10:54 AM
can't believe the 12 " PBS still have no FW 800...
you'd think if there could only be one FW
they would make it 800 with an adapter(I know)
to use 400....

I was ready to sell my 15" but now no.

Just curious, what peripheral do you use that requires a FW800 connection, and why do you need to use it with a laptop?

patriotn11
Apr 20, 2004, 11:16 AM
hows this compared to the loaded 15" incher


PowerBook 1.33GHz/SuperDrive (12.1" TFT) $1,712.00
Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
256MB DDR333 (256MB built-in) 512 from crucial 129+change
AirPort Extreme Card
80GB Ultra ATA drive @ 5400rpm
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
.Mac Promotional Bundle $69.95 $69.95
Office 2004 for Mac - Student and Teacher Edition $149.95 $ APP for PowerBookEnrollment Kit $239.00
$2,170.9

Sun Baked
Apr 22, 2004, 12:41 AM
This is probably quite close...Originally posted by M.Isobe:
From the frequency and voltage specification, we can speculate the grade and the power number of the chips used in each PowerBook model.
Power [W]
Model Part# Vdd Typ. Max.
PB17"/1.5GHz MC7447AHX1500YB 1.28V ~20 ~29
PB15"/1.5GHz MC7447AHX1500WB 1.25V ~18 ~27
PB15"/1.33GHz MC7447AHX1333WB 1.18V ~16 ~23
PB12"/1.33GHz MC7447AHX1333XB 1.15V 14.5 ~20
IB14"/1.2GHz MC7447AHX1197VB 1.15V ~13 ~19
IB12"/1.0GHz MC7447AHX1064VB 1.15V ~10 ~15

MikeAtari
Apr 22, 2004, 09:19 AM
This is probably quite close...
Why does the 17 inch 1.5 cpu use more power than the 15 inch?

tpjunkie
Apr 22, 2004, 03:43 PM
it appears to be a different model 7447, the YB instead of the WB

Naimfan
Apr 22, 2004, 04:01 PM
it appears to be a different model 7447, the YB instead of the WB

Any idea why? Not earth shattering, obviously, but I'm curious.

Best,

Bob

aswitcher
Apr 22, 2004, 04:04 PM
Why does the 17 inch 1.5 cpu use more power than the 15 inch?

MMmm. No idea. Of course the machine itself uses more for graphics/screen but I thought the processor was the same...

thatwendigo
Apr 22, 2004, 04:38 PM
Any idea why? Not earth shattering, obviously, but I'm curious.

My guess is thus:
The YB looks like it's higher power, and so it probably has a less efficient design. It clocks the same, but most likely is the less expensive of the pair. In order to keep the power the same across the line, they'd put the lower heat chips in smaller form factors, and put the higher heat one in a larger space that could dissipate better.