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Durandal7
Jun 8, 2002, 10:20 PM
India's military is preparing to invade the Pakistani controlled half of Kashmir within 2 weeks. Meanwhile Pakistan is threatening "retaliation", whatever that means. Looks like this situation just got worse.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/06/06/wkash06.xml&sSheet=/portal/2002/06/06/ixport.html

Beej
Jun 8, 2002, 10:47 PM
Macs vs PCs
India vs Pakistan


Can't we all just get along?

macktheknife
Jun 8, 2002, 10:58 PM
The current India-Pakistan conflict is downright scary, given two nuclear powers with relatively unstable governments (esp. Pakistan) and volatile public opinion have no launching safeguards like the other big five nuclear powers. I just pray (even though I'm not religious) that cooler heads will prevail and restraint will be exercised. If nuclear war between India and Pakistan erupt, millions will die needlessly and Muslim anger will be inflamed. We can speculate what will follow, but it's scary for me to even contemplate.

Mr. Anderson
Jun 8, 2002, 11:00 PM
quote from the article "We will call Pakistan's nuclear bluff,"

not good, too many variables, negotiations should be used, not force. I really hope it doesn't get too serious and end up with an exchange of nukes. The whole planet will be affected. That whole statement about calling the bluff is moronic, short sided and ignorant of the far reaching effects and responsibilities that come with having nuclear weapons.

macktheknife
Jun 8, 2002, 11:04 PM
I saw an independent documentary a few weeks ago concerning the nuclear tests in India and Pakistan in 1998. What amazed me was the degree of misinformation and self-denial both sides had.

For instance, the interviewer spoke to an Indian crowd cheering at the news of India's successful test. We were not worried at the prospects of nuclear war, one of them said, since India will just shoot down any missiles coming from Pakistan. This was a view echoed even by the Pakistanis and some of the more educated.

Other Indians interviewed in the documentary viewed the bomb as a way of winning international respect for their country, which they claimed were ignored by the world without the bomb.

Mr. Anderson
Jun 8, 2002, 11:18 PM
Propoganda and ingnorance are powerful tools. Sad, though. I just hope they can handle this a little more responsibly:(

macktheknife
Jun 8, 2002, 11:23 PM
Well, the funny thing is, in the documentary, viewers are given a taste of Indian and Pakistani propaganda: "We're so great and we're going to knock X out cause our nukes and weapons are better than X's!!!!" However, the director contrasted that with American propaganda of sorts at a museum in DC, playing videos hyping America's military arsenal.

Bottom line: propaganda is everywhere, even on this side of the Pacific.

Mr. Anderson
Jun 8, 2002, 11:29 PM
I never said anything about propoganda being exclusive of India and Pakistan, far from it. It comes in many forms too. But when ingnorance or lack of real facts and education are thrown in the mix it only makes it worse.

I'm truly concerned they don't really know what it is they have with those weapons. That they think it can only affect the enemy, not the rest of the world. We'll all have to deal with their mistakes, something I'm not really happy with.

Backtothemac
Jun 8, 2002, 11:45 PM
Well, the only good thing, if there is a good thing here is that they have very low yield weapons. 10-20KT. Now yea, that will wipe off plenty of people over there, but those yields are nothing compared to the yields that the US and Russia have tested in open air. They will impact the world, but not on the level that some are saying. Still, I hope they don't do it.

clubmedia
Jun 8, 2002, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
Propoganda and ingnorance are powerful tools.

isn't that what religion is all about?

we are right, they are wrong. this is right, that is wrong.

religion is the battle of all battles. everyone is fighting for what they are told is right, and too stupid to realize what they are doing is done because they are just ignorant...

no wonder this happens in 3rd world countries so much. sad to say, but without entertainment (tv, computers, anything...) religions are the entertainment. and for people to fight about them, shows nothing but their complete ignorance.

lets all play follow the leader!!!!!

if you were so religious, would you rather just believe what you believe and be happy? or would you not rest until you have twisted every person's arm behind their backs that don't believe like you do, until they agree with you.. talk about the schoolyard bully.

thats it, i am creating the ARM. the "apple religious movement". no religion, just code! no room for stories being twisted for no good reason.

blah blah blah

Rower_CPU
Jun 8, 2002, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Well, the only good thing, if there is a good thing here is that they have very low yield weapons. 10-20KT. Now yea, that will wipe off plenty of people over there, but those yields are nothing compared to the yields that the US and Russia have tested in open air. They will impact the world, but not on the level that some are saying. Still, I hope they don't do it.

Granted, but the danger lies in the possible escalation of the nuking.

In a WWIII scenario India and Pakistan would call on allies until the major players were involved and the world as we know it comes to a swift and ugly end.

I'm not saying it's probable...but it's way ******** scary that it's possible.

Backtothemac
Jun 8, 2002, 11:59 PM
Clubmedia. Dude, you know that the conflict there is not about religion right. I know that has been discussed in the thread, but no. That is not what this is about. Kashmir is much more complicated than that.

Rower. I agree the threat is there. Especially if China saw a nuclear conflict as an opportunity to go after Taiwan. Truthfully though, I don't think that anyone would attempt to escalate the situation. It is way too volitale for any alies with any substance to get involved. We won't. They could nuke each other off the face of the planet, and we would not get involved with troops, or weapons of any kind. Now. China going after Taiwan, that would change the situation drastically.

Also, it could be an opportunity for Saddam to go after Israel to destabilize the whole contenient. That is another worry. Although the Israels would handle it, and frankly, we would not get involved in any war where WMD were used. Neither would Russia. So, that being said, there is no threat of Global nuclear war coming from Pakistan and India.

Durandal7
Jun 9, 2002, 12:07 AM
I just heard a frightening story on the radio news. Pakistan says that they will not make the first move but if India moves against them there is a high likelihood they will use nuclear arms. I believe that CBS was running the story on the radio.

BTW, religion is not a big factor in this conflict, it's mostly about land and a pointless feud that's been going on for 50 years.

Durandal7
Jun 9, 2002, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by macktheknife
I saw an independent documentary a few weeks ago concerning the nuclear tests in India and Pakistan in 1998. What amazed me was the degree of misinformation and self-denial both sides had.

For instance, the interviewer spoke to an Indian crowd cheering at the news of India's successful test. We were not worried at the prospects of nuclear war, one of them said, since India will just shoot down any missiles coming from Pakistan. This was a view echoed even by the Pakistanis and some of the more educated.

Other Indians interviewed in the documentary viewed the bomb as a way of winning international respect for their country, which they claimed were ignored by the world without the bomb.

Sorry for double posting but I had to comment on this.
The ignorance of the severity of nuclear weapons could end up devastating both sides. If it does come to nuclear war that involves only India and Pakistan we could end up losing 20% of the planet's population.

clubmedia
Jun 9, 2002, 12:12 AM
pakistan has been saying that from the beginning. nothing different. what religion are most pakistanis and what religion are most indians?

Backtothemac
Jun 9, 2002, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by clubmedia
pakistan has been saying that from the beginning. nothing different. what religion are most pakistanis and what religion are most indians?

Look, this conflict has been going on for 50 years. It all started after India gained independence from Britian. Pakistan wants Kashmir because of it being the major water source for Pakistan, and India wants it because of mining, and for a strategic defensive position. It is not, not about religion.

Durandal7
Jun 9, 2002, 12:22 AM
It's more of a blood feud then anything. When Britain freed India and Pakistan the various provinces pledged their support to either country. For some reason or another Kashmir did not pledge their support. The countries began to bicker. After a while they both released propganda to their peoples to rally support for the Kashmir cause. Buying into the propoganda both countries have this image of Kashmir as Eden. It eventually came to armed conflict which only fueled hatred for the oppisition. Several more wars were fought and they are now mortal enemies. The above reasons that B2TM stated are true but more then anything Kashmir is a symbol and that is more valuable to a government then anything.

Religion does not factor into every conflict. Look at the cold war between the U.S. and Russia.

clubmedia
Jun 9, 2002, 12:26 AM
i never said religion was involved. i just showed the similarities. pointless similarities..

it would be great if for once a something could happed that didn't involve a bunch of people saying they do all the stupid stuff they are doing and saying they are doing it for the sake of their religion, or for "allah". whatever its all lame and isn't what life is about.


it just gets old watching people fight about dumb things and sadly most are about religion.

don't take life so seriously. you will never get out alive...

Durandal7
Jun 9, 2002, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by clubmedia
it would be great if for once a something could happed that didn't involve a bunch of people saying they do all the stupid stuff they are doing and saying they are doing it for the sake of their religion, or for "allah". whatever its all lame and isn't what life is about.

It's ironic how their religion always preaches peace and non-violence yet they kill everyone in the name of God. Not just Islam but all religions.

clubmedia
Jun 9, 2002, 12:42 AM
my point exactly! what was i saying??? oh yeah... "ignorance" rules the world.

news at eleven

Mr. Anderson
Jun 9, 2002, 12:44 AM
You also have to look at the history of Pakistan, Bangladesh and India. When India gained independence from England it was all of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh combined. What ended up happening is that India tried to get rid of all its Muslims (sound familliar) and ended up doing some genocide in the course of kicking them out. So Pakistan and Bangladesh are Muslim and India isn't (there are still Muslims there, but not a majority).

So even though this is not an issue over religion, it does have some bearing when taking in their history. Not a simple problem, no.

clubmedia
Jun 9, 2002, 01:01 AM
yeah, my point is religion should not be in the middle of anything. especially if it is meant for good and not entertainment. i should never judge anyone over their beliefs, and vice versa.

we are all trained from day one how to believe. it doesn't mean we should do just what those who trained us and be prejudice to other because of different viewpoints.

i am so sick of seeing islamic jihad and muslim extremists, or muslim milatants. i have nothing against islam or muslims at all. the media just shouldn't always put religious ideologies in front of any people.

its like everyone wants to fight over worthless stuff


if people are stupid, replace their religious beliefs with "stupid", not religons

Durandal7
Jun 9, 2002, 01:07 AM
I agree that these groups are no representation of their religions. The problem is that in certain parts of the world such as Egypt they have become accepted and are now teaching anti-semitic, anti-american, anti-whatever to the people there. They are attempting to become the religion. I have to feel sorry for the *real* Islamics out there who have been given a bad name by these fools.

clubmedia
Jun 9, 2002, 01:22 AM
exactly.... why make a religion look bad because ignorant people try to represent it a certain way.

imagining whatever type of extremist group claiming they were doing it in the name of the "united states" or in the name of "england".

sorry to say there isn't a country or religion out their with a backbone enough to deny these things.

irmongoose
Jun 9, 2002, 01:25 AM
Okay this is actually getting scary.

As you all know, I'm Indian, and I go back to India every 3 years.

And this is the year I'm gong back.

My mom left for New Delhi in May, and I'm going to Mumbai (Bombay) with my sister in the end of June.

My cousin's getting married, so I can't just say no I'm not going.

I am really hoping this settles out. Why can't Vajpayee and Musharraf at least have a decent conversation?

But you know what? Not many Indians here think the war is gonna happen. When I ask them why, they just say "because I get the feeling that it's not gonna happen".

What should I do?




irmongoose

irmongoose
Jun 9, 2002, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
What ended up happening is that India tried to get rid of all its Muslims (sound familliar) and ended up doing some genocide in the course of kicking them out.

Wrong. I'm sorry but I have heard many people make this mistake, but it is wrong. When India got its independence, there were 3 leading people. Gandhi, Prime Minister Nehra, and the Muslim leader Jinnah. Now, Jinnah argued that even if the British gave them independence, he did not want the Hindus to take over their role and rule over the Muslims again. So, he forced Nehra and Gandhi to seperate India to two: India and Pakistan. Nehra and Gandhi both urged Jinnah to reconsider, but he had his mind made up. Thus, they seperated. Yes, there were many riots between the Muslims and Hindus, but India itself never forced the Muslims out. There was no genocide.




irmongoose

clubmedia
Jun 9, 2002, 01:39 AM
whoa... i would love to go to india. i don't know about anytime soon though...

they aren't going nuclear unless india tries something big.

Backtothemac
Jun 9, 2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by irmongoose
Okay this is actually getting scary.
As you all know, I'm Indian, and I go back to India every 3 years.
And this is the year I'm gong back.
My mom left for New Delhi in May, and I'm going to Mumbai (Bombay) with my sister in the end of June.
My cousin's getting married, so I can't just say no I'm not going.
I am really hoping this settles out. Why can't Vajpayee and Musharraf at least have a decent conversation?
But you know what? Not many Indians here think the war is gonna happen. When I ask them why, they just say "because I get the feeling that it's not gonna happen".
What should I do?


Dude, go about your life as if everything was normal. You cannot stop living. I would do everything I could to move my family out of there, but since we know that is not a reality, then live life. That was one of the things about the cold war, was just live life. If it happens, it happens. We are all going to die, that is the only guarantee that we have in this world. Just enjoy, and live life, and love. That is what people fail to understand. Let the idiots deal with the idiots ideals. You just live your life.

You and your family will be in my prayers.

irmongoose
Jun 9, 2002, 10:50 AM
Thank you.

Yes, I guess I will just live my life. There is nothing I can do to stop it. All I can do is pray.


Thank you.



irmongoose

Mr. Anderson
Jun 9, 2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by irmongoose


Wrong. I'm sorry but I have heard many people make this mistake, but it is wrong.

Yes, there were many riots between the Muslims and Hindus, but India itself never forced the Muslims out. There was no genocide.

Sorry irmongoose, I was posting that based on something I read a long time ago and I even searched on the web for some historical info, but couldn't find anything about the split. I usually don't like posting things like that without first making sure their right.

But from what I remember, and genocide might have been the wrong term, that when the country split, many Muslims left India (I had thought they were forced, but from what you said it seems it was for political reasons). On their travels through India to get to Pakistan, many died. Is this a better interpretation?

Thanks,

D

Durandal7
Jun 9, 2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by irmongoose
Okay this is actually getting scary.

As you all know, I'm Indian, and I go back to India every 3 years.

And this is the year I'm gong back.

My mom left for New Delhi in May, and I'm going to Mumbai (Bombay) with my sister in the end of June.

My cousin's getting married, so I can't just say no I'm not going.

I am really hoping this settles out. Why can't Vajpayee and Musharraf at least have a decent conversation?

But you know what? Not many Indians here think the war is gonna happen. When I ask them why, they just say "because I get the feeling that it's not gonna happen".

What should I do?




irmongoose

I agree with B2TM. Just head out to India and hope things have settled down by then. If everytime there was a threat of war and everyone stopped what they were doing society would not exist today. Good luck to you.

irmongoose
Jun 10, 2002, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
On their travels through India to get to Pakistan, many died. Is this a better interpretation?

Thanks,

D

Yep. Many did die on the way to Pakistan, and also vica versa. My dad's family was forced out of Western Punjab when they split up, and they didn't know that they weren't allowed to come back, so they just left all their stuff at home. My dad was 3. When they settled on the Indian side, they had to start from zero.

That was a pretty harsh time. I just want to clear things up so nobody gets the wrong interpretation.

Thanks for the advice, everyone!




irmongoose