Apple Mac Sales Flat in November

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/12/16/apple-mac-sales-flat-in-november/)

Early numbers from NPD Group reveal (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Apple-US-Mac-sales-flat-in-rb-13839769.html) that Apple's retail sales numbers for November have shown flat year-over-year growth. Declining Mac desktop sales are said to be playing a major role in these relatively poor numbers. In November, Mac desktop sales were down 38 percent while Windows desktops fell only 15 percent. In contrast, however, Apple's notebook sales outperformed the industry with 22 percent growth as compared to a rise of only 15 percent for Windows. Viewed together, Apple's overall Mac sales (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122938758242108907.html) were down 1% year-over-year.

Analysts blame a number of factors including the economic downturn and the relative premium of pricing of Apple's Macs. The November data indicate that falling prices for Windows-based PCs, and the rise of low-priced computers like netbooks -- mini notebooks that cost as little as $300 -- have finally tripped Apple, said Gene Munster, an analyst at Piper Jaffray, who still expects Apple to continue outpacing the market over the next year. "What you're seeing in the numbers is price sensitivity with the consumer," he said. NPD analyst Stephen Barker, however, points out simply that the "iMacs need a refresh". As a result, it may be hard to tease out external factors versus product cycle factors. As shown in our Buyer's Guide (http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/), all of Apple's desktop Macs (Mac mini, Mac Pro, iMac) are overdue for refresh. The Mac mini is particularly outdated with the last update delivered over 16 months ago. Apple is expected to refresh the iMac, Mac mini and Mac Pro early next year.



Article Link: Apple Mac Sales Flat in November (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/12/16/apple-mac-sales-flat-in-november/)

[amacperson]

this is a sign for apple to cut prices!

They have always been charging excessively, now they should compete in the recession price margin.

Amacperson

[CrackedButter]

Good, nothing like a bit of external pressure on Apple to update its machines.

[zombitronic]

I really hate that I'm seeing this story all over the web. The fact that their desktops (minus the iMac) haven't been updated in about a year (Mac Pro) or more (Mac Mini) can't be helping this data.

[Biolizard]

The recession will hit premium products hard. Look at the car industry. And what class of product does Apple specialise in? More people will be looking at Macs and thinking 'I can't justify the money' now.

On the other hand, nice to see the laptops keeping up. The new design is a great factor but probably also because laptops are a different market. I for one would not buy an Apple desktop because they're too expensive for what they do and don't meet my needs (no intermediate tower, and I hate the iMac), but the laptops are much more up my street, and they are becoming more popular as a desktop replacement these days.

Will be interesting to see whether Apple does anything about this at Macworld.

[Kebabselector]

Not that many bought Mac Pros or Minis anyway (though my local Apple store still sells more Minis than Pros).

[talkingfuture]

How official are these figures? I can't see Apple releasing them outside of their earnings reports. Are these just analyst predictions?

[Techguy172]

Good Lets update the Mini now! Apple really needs to get of their A$$ with the Desktops.

[goodcow]

Apple's pricing for a product at time of release is generally pretty competitive, I just think it's ridiculous that their prices are set in stone at that point until the line is updated, possibly up to a year and a half later.

It's ridiculous that the MacPro still comes with 2GB RAM. The Mini should be about half the price they currently are. The MacBook Pro should have 4GB RAM standard since the MacBook has 2GB. etc.

[alexbates]

I didn't expect for desktop sales to be declining more than Windows...

[Tallest Skil]

They have always been charging excessively...

It's not excessive if people pay it.

But there's never anything wrong with a price cut.

[manowarwi]

I didn't expect for desktop sales to be declining more than Windows...

Apple has been pushing users towards laptops for a while now and with the redesigned laptops as well as the neglect towards the Mini this is to be expected (which is why Apple's notebook sales are outperforming the PC sales). Times like this I'm sure Apple is happy they are sitting on 25 billion in cash.

[TheWarIsNotOver]

People are just waiting for Mac OS X Snow Leopard, or waiting for new iMac updates, that may be why they are waiting to buy a new Macbook or iMac. It sure is the reason why I'm not buying anything ;)

[PeterQVenkman]

It's not excessive if people pay it.

But there's never anything wrong with a price cut.

Truth!

Although I was pretty impressed with what you get for your money in the mac pros. An 8 core monster from Apple is pretty competitive with other companies.

That doesn't mean it's affordable, just competitive.

It's also the reason why I went with a previous gen Macbook Pro. It was just cheaper.

[steve333]

Apple's computers are built in China, along with all the other crap we buy. There's no reason for prices to be as high as they are.
The only reason to justify it would be if they were built in the U.S. The MBP is built in China.
Update the Mini and stop being so arrogant, Apple.

[zombitronic]

How official are these figures? I can't see Apple releasing them outside of their earnings reports. Are these just analyst predictions?

These figures are calculated from data collected by the NPD Group, Inc. (formerly National Purchase Diary), which tracks retail sales. Of course, these figures aren't going to be as accurate as the figures that Apple gives out at their earnings, but these research groups still hold some merit. It should be noted, however, that Apple usually understates their expected sales for the quarter and has beaten their own predictions for the last few years. Hopefully, despite the economy, they achieve this again.

One good thing about being tight on money for the foreseeable future is that, in theory, people may put more thought into a value purchase, as opposed to something that will need to be replaced or upgraded soon. Spend now, save later.

[Shiner]

Apple's computers are built in China, along with all the other crap we buy. There's no reason for prices to be as high as they are.
The only reason to justify it would be if they were built in the U.S. The MBP is built in China.
Update the Mini and stop being so arrogant, Apple.

This is so true!! Thank you for saying it finally. People the parts are all the same. Apple bring down the price. At least bring down the price of your desktops. Keep the laptop price where ever you want it. You have done enough research on your own.

[gwangung]

this is a sign for apple to cut prices!

They have always been charging excessively, now they should compete in the recession price margin.

Amacperson

This is a myth.

Apple's margins are pretty much in line with any manufacturing company's margins, and substantially lower than most software makers.

[iOrlando]

i dont know about you guys...but i liked my 7.7% discount on my macbook on black friday......

imporant to note once again: macbook sales are still postive. Desktop computers are the problem (will be solved in January).

[SleepyHead157]

Apple won't cut prices, but they need to keep refreshing their lineup to make people keep coming back. I mean I could use a Mac Mini. I have an older one at home, but looking for a refreshed one for work so I won't have to carry my macbook to work and back. So if Apple could come out with some like that would be great.

Plus the economy has been down and most people are not willing to spend their extra cash on a high priced macbook and instead are settling for the cheaper netbooks and such

[MacTraveller]

It's not excessive if people pay it.

But there's never anything wrong with a price cut.

Even a modest price cut would be welcome. Add to that a refresh of the iMac line... and count me in as a Mac (desktop) buyer in 2009.

[iOrlando]

This is so true!! Thank you for saying it finally. People the parts are all the same. Apple bring down the price. At least bring down the price of your desktops. Keep the laptop price where ever you want it. You have done enough research on your own.


yeah since dell and hp also make all their laptops from one piece of aluminum. and have multi-touch trackpads installed on all laptops..


come on....lets get our facts straight.

[HyperZboy]

I didn't expect for desktop sales to be declining more than Windows...

3 Words: I Told You SO!

If Apple had the Mac products that people wanted to buy across the board, Mac desktop sales would NOT be falling faster than Windows sales. That's pretty much proof positive that Steve Jobs was once again wrong.

Instead of updating Mac Pros or releasing that mythical Mac mini-tower or updating the Mac Mini, Steve Jobs has stubbornly stuck to his guns and instead is wasting money suing PSYSTAR, who actually has such a product. Geez, even the Apple TV has been updated more often and nobody even wants that dog of a product!

And in a worsening economy, Apple is going to pay a high price without adjusting quickly. So far, I see nothing happening. Apple missed the boat this Christmas season and by the time MacWorld Expo comes around, everyone will be flat broke or unemployed. Geez, what bad decision-making.

Somebody needs to tap Steve Jobs on the shoulder and give him a hint.
I think he's been spending way too much time playing with his iPhone instead of his Macs. :mad:

[RogueWarrior65]

Flat is flat not going down and it has everything to do with the economy. I'll bet that sales go up in December. People are holding off until the holidays to buy.

And no, Apple does NOT need to cut prices. The products have never been over-inflated like houses or shares of dot-com stocks. If you went into a Ferrari dealership and said "Your sales are flat. Time to lower your prices," they'd thank you for the best bought of ROTFL they've had in months.

[capoeirista]

3 Words: I Told You SO!



Eh?

It would be nice if they were a bit cheaper. Rip-off Britain FTL. Also it would be nice to update my G4 mini I use for work...

[TEG]

This is an indicator that Apple need to the following;
1) Update desktop lineups more often/consistently
2) Offer something between The Core 2 Duo iMac, and the Xeon Mac Pro. I know several people who have purchased PCs because they didn't need the power of the Xeon, but did need the Core 2 Quad, and they didn't want a built in screen. So either extend both lines to overlap with Core 2 Quad systems, or create a new Desktop (or even an expanded Mac mini line) that fill the void.
3) Cut prices more often, instead of changing prices when models are updated.

TEG

[thejadedmonkey]

yeah since dell and hp also make all their laptops from one piece of aluminum. and have multi-touch trackpads installed on all laptops..


come on....lets get our facts straight.

Except how many people would choose a laptop because of multi-touch trackpads, and not price/ram/processor speed...

[talkingfuture]

How official are these figures? I can't see Apple releasing them outside of their earnings reports. Are these just analyst predictions?

These figures are calculated from data collected by the NPD Group, Inc. (formerly National Purchase Diary), which tracks retail sales. Of course, these figures aren't going to be as accurate as the figures that Apple gives out at their earnings, but these research groups still hold some merit. It should be noted, however, that Apple usually understates their expected sales for the quarter and has beaten their own predictions for the last few years. Hopefully, despite the economy, they achieve this again.

One good thing about being tight on money for the foreseeable future is that, in theory, people may put more thought into a value purchase, as opposed to something that will need to be replaced or upgraded soon. Spend now, save later.

Thanks for explaining. Wasn't sure if there was any merit there or not.

[jellomizer]

not an iMac or a Mac Mini or a Mac Pro. Just a Mac.
A sub $500 unit
A mid sized tower unit.
Graphics good enough to run modern games smoothly.
CPU and Ram and hard-drive that you can upgrade yourself. Or get a reasonable quantity.

In Essence it could be configured to a cheaper version of the Mac Mini to more Powerful then a low end configuration of the Mac Pro.

Or lets go to Apples roots. Sell an Apple Motherboard with OS X and you can build your own Mac.

[alexbates]

I really hate that I'm seeing this story all over the web. The fact that their desktops (minus the iMac) haven't been updated in about a year (Mac Pro) or more (Mac Mini) can't be helping this data.

This is the reason that the desktops aren't selling. I bet the new Macbooks are selling good because they were just updated. This is all Apple needs to do to fix the sales problem.

[HyperZboy]

People are just waiting for Mac OS X Snow Leopard, or waiting for new iMac updates, that may be why they are waiting to buy a new Macbook or iMac. It sure is the reason why I'm not buying anything ;)

Dumbest quote I've read here in a long time. Go back to your koolaid man.

No one is waiting on Snow Leopard and probably not even for new iMacs either.

What people are waiting for is something Apple DOESN'T EVEN SELL, i.e.: reasonably priced desktop Macs that have some level of longevity/upgradeability. Apple doesn't even sell such a beast.

In next year's bad economy, people are going to be looking for value and something not just disposable in a couple years. And Apple is going to take a serious beating for their arrogance.

[fendol]

I hope this gives them a sign that they need to cut back a little on prices to get along with the economy.

Better win some money than no money at all. In about 30 days I guess we'll see a bunch of these questions and issues being answered :apple:http://seoagora.com/img/459/k08q1024glza/ecstatic.gif

[crees!]

(looks to last weeks 14% raise)
Economic downturn? I choose to not participate. As for purchasing a new Mac. I think I'll wait till 10.7 and hope my PowerBook can ruff it out.

[bpd115]

Currently I have a 2.66 Ghz Quad Mac Pro, introduced first in 2006. I bought it in 2007.

I've had it for a year and a half but the model is two years old and honestly it's plenty fast for what I do, and with Snow Leopard it should be faster.

The next Mac Pro will be Core I7 based and a screamer no doubt. But where will it beat my current machine? Video encoding and number crunching apps.

My machine handbrakes movies plenty fast enough for my needs, creates dvds and handles iMovie projects and my photography wonderfully. The only needed upgrade is video as I'm still running the 7300....but that's only a video card swap away.

People who make their living in the video world will no doubt be all over the New Mac Pros. I can't see myself upgrading until something like 16 cores are standard. When will that be? 2 years? 3 years?

I know it's been beat like a dead horse but I think Apple hurts itself on the desktop side by not having something in between the pro and iMac/Mini.

The iMac is great for people like my inlaws and parents who want an elegant solution, no mess, no fuss.

The mini is a good intro mac for the kids and grandma. People with little space, good working monitors and want something small and cheap (in mac terms) to email and surf the web.

What about the customers who want a traditional desktop but don't need the size and power of the Mac Pro? The midsize tower with a core2duo, a killer Ive's designed case and an upgradable GPU.

The lack of that machine hurts desktop sales. It would eat some Mac Pro sales but only from customers who are buying Pros simply because Apple lacks the machine above.

[arn]

Thanks for explaining. Wasn't sure if there was any merit there or not.

It's also notable that they are comparing their November numbers to their own numbers from last year. So, since they are both using the same methodology, it does mean something.

arn

[notjustjay]

I think it's less about the price of the product but about the fact that they're stagnating. The mini is the most painful example. Consumers these days are smart enough to research things on the web, and to all of us on the forum it is completely obvious that the Mac Pro, etc. are sorely in need of a refresh.

Certainly it wouldn't hurt if the prices went down, and stayed down. Apple has made half-hearted gestures at reducing prices, but they never seem to stay that way. Remember the original price of the Mac mini? Then it went up again... and stayed up. The MacBook has also effectively jumped up in price, if you want the fancy aluminum shell instead of the same old white plastic model.

Hopefully the fact that we're in an economic downturn will help motivate Apple into seeing what they need to do.

[msb65]

Apple's computers are built in China, along with all the other crap we buy. There's no reason for prices to be as high as they are.
The only reason to justify it would be if they were built in the U.S. The MBP is built in China.
Update the Mini and stop being so arrogant, Apple.

I completely agree on the arrogance of Apple. Don't get me wrong, I love Apple products. However, given the unquestionable loyalty of it's customers, I do not feel that Apple treats them with the amount respect they deserve. Rather they take advantage of it. Apple has accumulated a fair amount of hubris, and perhaps these figures are a result.

Apple has made some truly amazing products, but that doesn't free them from criticism. If they showed more respect I bet they would do even better! Don't ignore the fact that the country is in a recession. Offer more customizing options. Don't charge $150 for 2 GB of RAM. Allow the iPhone on more than one carrier. Be more transparent with the App store.

I love Apple products, but I don't like it when my loyalty is taken advantage of.

[Eric S.]

Economic downturn, high retail prices - of course these are factors. But Apple Inc. used to be Apple Computer Inc. The emphasis in the last few years has been on their consumer electronics business, and it shows in their computer products. Long cycles between hardware and OS upgrades, quality issues with initial releases, botching an important feature like Firewire - it's no surprise that Apple's longtime established customer base is getting frustrated.

[bdkennedy1]

Apple is really going to have to completely redesign the iMac to something awesome to get me to switch from my current aluminum one. It's beautiful.

Let's remember that the current iMac design is 4 1/2 years old.

[Tallest Skil]

3 Words: I Told You SO!

Somebody needs to tap Steve Jobs on the shoulder and give him a hint.
I think he's been spending way too much time playing with his iPhone instead of his Macs. :mad:

You told us what so? Notice that it's Apple Inc., not Apple Computer Inc.

Taking cues from a recent advertisement...

*Interior: White Space, Day(?): Steve Jobs sits at his desk sorting a huge pile of money*

Steve: iPhone and iPod, iPhone and iPod, iPhone and iPod... Mac Pro and Mac Mini... iPhone and iPod, iPhone and iPod...

*A guy with a sign on his shirt reading "The personification of the Mac community" walks up*

Macman: Oh, hey, Steve Jobs. What're you doing?

Steve Jobs: Oh, hey, loyal Mac users. I'm just budgeting our 25 billion dollars. iPhone and iPod, iPhone and iPod...

Macman: Well, yeah, Steve, but... doesn't something seem a little off here? I mean, the Mac Mini hasn't been updated in three short of 500 days; the Mac Pro only gets updated every 518, and don't get us started on the xMac...

Steve Jobs: Don't get me started... but you're right. I guess my focus has been a little bit off.

Macman: Well, good; I'm glad that...

Steve Jobs: I'll just put it all in the iPhone and iPod. Hey, look! An iPhone nano!

Macman: Screw that.

And then instead of the Apple logo at the end, they just show the iPod logo.

[alphaod]

Apple's computers are built in China, along with all the other crap we buy. There's no reason for prices to be as high as they are.
The only reason to justify it would be if they were built in the U.S. The MBP is built in China.
Update the Mini and stop being so arrogant, Apple.

What's that suppose to mean? If you're insinuating that things made in China are cheap you should try to buy foreign-branded Chinese manufactured automobiles... Also you should convince Asus, Gigabyte, Acer, etc to all cut their motherboard prices since stuff Made in China should be cheap.

[dernhelm]

Dumbest quote I've read here in a long time. Go back to your koolaid man.

No one is waiting on Snow Leopard and probably not even for new iMacs either.

What people are waiting for is something Apple DOESN'T EVEN SELL, i.e.: reasonably priced desktop Macs that have some level of longevity/upgradeability. Apple doesn't even sell such a beast.

In next year's bad economy, people are going to be looking for value and something not just disposable in a couple years. And Apple is going to take a serious beating for their arrogance.

Apple can always DROP prices and be a "hero". Apple's pricing strategy has always to be on the high end and deliver value for the money. IMHO they've done that pretty well. In the current (and forseeable future) economy, that strategy might cause them to give some of the market share gains back, but it wouldn't necessarily cost them any money.

I'm not sure that Apple cares a lot about marketshare, leastwise not at the cost of profits. They thrived on a lot smaller marketshare in the past, they could do so again.

However, if they are smart, they find a way to trim margins - while still producing compelling products, and undercut current price points. They have the warchest to take a bit of a profit hit in order to garner marketshare. This crummy economy is a opportunity - all they need to do is to hold their own in a shrinking market, and they'll come out way ahead in terms of marketshare. As it turns out their laptop products don't seem to need the pricing help in order to sell well, but their desktops apparently do.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see them leave the laptop pricing alone while dropping prices on the products that are struggling a little.

[kingtj]

Sure, the higher price of a Mac will cause slower sales during tough economic times. But the majority of their customer-base has always been the people in the higher income brackets. (Many pro movie editors and producers, college faculty, wedding photographers and videographers, pro or semi-pro musicians, etc. etc.)

I don't see Mac sales slowing down disproportionately to sales of any other computer, simply because of the economy. Rather, the fact their desktops are all in need of a refresh, is the thing slowing those sales down.

The interesting thing about the iMac (especially the 24" screen version) is how many of them I've observed people using as an LCD TV set in their bedroom, along with it doubling as a computer. Personally, I think Apple could really boost iMac sales if they'd embrace this reality by building in a digital TV tuner and enhancing "Front Row" to become a full PVR application.



The recession will hit premium products hard. Look at the car industry. And what class of product does Apple specialise in? More people will be looking at Macs and thinking 'I can't justify the money' now.

On the other hand, nice to see the laptops keeping up. The new design is a great factor but probably also because laptops are a different market. I for one would not buy an Apple desktop because they're too expensive for what they do and don't meet my needs (no intermediate tower, and I hate the iMac), but the laptops are much more up my street, and they are becoming more popular as a desktop replacement these days.

Will be interesting to see whether Apple does anything about this at Macworld.

[DarthTreydor]

It's not excessive if people pay it.

But there's never anything wrong with a price cut.

i think what the data shows is that people aren't paying it. at least not the way were a year ago. so yes, it is excessive, especially in the case of the mini being offered at $600, a figure that many would argue was overpriced for the specs when it was last updated A YEAR AND A HALF AGO.

[talkingfuture]

It's also notable that they are comparing their November numbers to their own numbers from last year. So, since they are both using the same methodology, it does mean something.

arn

Thanks, that useful to know in the future. You can never tell with analysts how much fact and how much rumour they use.

[BenRoethig]

This is so true!! Thank you for saying it finally. People the parts are all the same. Apple bring down the price. At least bring down the price of your desktops. Keep the laptop price where ever you want it. You have done enough research on your own.

I think the lack of updates on the desktop, all in one, and workstation lines may have something to do with it as well. With the cheap quad cores out there, the iMac is starting to fall behind. They could also do well with a lower end model with the Geforce 9400M to take the eMac's old spot as a machine for entry level buyers as well as the education and business markets. The MacPro isn't actually that bad, and the Nehelem Xeon 5500-series is right around the corner. Lastly, the mini has been so neglected that it has become a joke. I'm sorry, but I can't recommend any computer with an 80GB hard drive these days unless its an ultraportable or a netbook. With music and video files, its far too small of a capacity for a modern frontline computer. The rumored unibody machine should have been updated with the notebooks, might have brought Apple some extra holiday purchases.

In another note, this is an area where the demise of Macworld New York/ Boston is felt. Apple has to keep most of its trump cards for just after the holiday buying season.

[HyperZboy]

What's that suppose to mean? If you're insinuating that things made in China are cheap you should try to buy foreign-branded Chinese manufactured automobiles... Also you should convince Asus, Gigabyte, Acer, etc to all cut their motherboard prices since stuff Made in China should be cheap.

Umm, last I checked Chinese manufactured automobiles were not even legal in the U.S. because they do not meet the stringent U.S. safety or fuel standards.

So if you're paying lots for a Chinese car, its because its the same thing as an illegal DRUG right now in the U.S.! LOL

[alexbates]

not an iMac or a Mac Mini or a Mac Pro. Just a Mac.
A sub $500 unit
A mid sized tower unit.
Graphics good enough to run modern games smoothly.
CPU and Ram and hard-drive that you can upgrade yourself. Or get a reasonable quantity.

In Essence it could be configured to a cheaper version of the Mac Mini to more Powerful then a low end configuration of the Mac Pro.

Or lets go to Apples roots. Sell an Apple Motherboard with OS X and you can build your own Mac.

Under $500....not going to happen. Apple doesn't want to throw out a bad product out with little RAM and HD (otherwise they would not get as much profit if they had expensive RAM or HD). Jobs beleives in innovation and I think he's going to keep it that way, except for the cheaper Mac Mini.

[SFStateStudent]

I'm doing my part to help out Apple by purchasing (2) Mac Mini (not even released yet, so I guess I'm starting a pre-order list) and one of "them" new MBA things to replace my old MBA thing...:D

[chrisPA]

This is a myth.

Apple's margins are pretty much in line with any manufacturing company's margins, and substantially lower than most software makers.

Based on this quote from the Wall Street Journal Article, it isn't a myth: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122938758242108907.html

"Despite short-term weakness, analysts expect Apple's products to remain more profitable than many rivals' computers. The MacBooks are forecast to deliver close to 20% profit margins, compared with 6% or less for competitors, said Toni Sacconaghi, an analyst at Sanford Bernstein & Co."

That's triple or better profit margins compared to competitors...

[whatever]

Lowering prices is not the answer. Once you lower them it becomes to difficult to raise them. If lower prices were the solution then Dell wouldn't be in the mess that they are in.

I for one question those numbers, especially since according to people I know at various Apple Stores tell me that they have customers still in their stores 30 minutes after closing purchasing computers. Granted there are more laptops being sold, however for the most part Apple's laptops cost more than the average computer (desktop or laptop). And the trend is that these customers are also buying an Apple external monitor....

So there is no need for Apple to lower their prices. Things are going quite well and from what I've heard, they well on their way of beating their projections for this quarter.

[ChrisA]

Apple could turn around those poor desktop sales numbers in an instant. All they'd need to do is introduce a "mainstream" or "normal" desktop computer. Look at what they have: (1) a $700 low spec, non-upgradable Mini, a "way expensive" MP and some all in ones with mirror-like screens. None of them are what most people want.

I'll bet anyone here a beer that if Apple made a weird unconventional notebook that was not the "mainstream" or "normal" design with an LCD inside the cover that folds over the keyboard they would not sell.

The worst thing is that Apple use to sell just exactly what everyone wanted, the G4 tower sold for $1500, was upgradable and for it's day had good performance.

[Amdahl]

People would be more likely to pay a PREMIUM for Apple if they knew Apple would stand behind their products.

That means five years of security updates for an operating system after the last date of retail sale.

[Count Blah]

Not that many bought Mac Pros or Minis anyway (though my local Apple store still sells more Minis than Pros).

Amazingly, the mini still sells pretty well on amazon.com. But Steve knows what's best, right?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/pc/565098/ref=pd_ts_pc_nav

[Le Big Mac]

Even a modest price cut would be welcome. Add to that a refresh of the iMac line... and count me in as a Mac (desktop) buyer in 2009.

+1. It's pretty tough to expect people to pay the same thing for the same computer that first went on sale in April/January/2007.

If the refreshes are going to slow, Apple may need to reconsider their no-price-drops policy and drop the price of things $100 or so midway through the cycle.

[eastcoastsurfer]

This is a myth.

Apple's margins are pretty much in line with any manufacturing company's margins, and substantially lower than most software makers.

Not true. Apples margins are HUGE. They are by far the largest margins of any hardware maker. Dell and crew scrape by on single digits while Apple is known to be in the 20%-30% on some of their products.

[alexbates]

Lowering prices is not the answer. Once you lower them it becomes to difficult to raise them. If lower prices were the solution then Dell wouldn't be in the mess that they are in.


Exactly! Apple said they have some ideas about the lower priced computer market, but I don't think that they are ready yet.

Let's say that Apple decides to lower the price of the Mac Mini to $500 when they update it. The generation after it could not have a higher price, or costomers would complain. They also could not lower the price, because that would be getting too close to the price of the iPod. Don't even think about lowering the price of the iPod more than Apple already has, or they would not be as good of quality because of the limited amount of money they have to spend. Well...you see where I'm going. Price reduction is the wrong idea unless Apple wants to end up like Dell.

[IJ Reilly]

This thread is full of the usual rations of baloney from armchair CEOs.

Even if these forecasts turn out to be accurate (which I personally doubt), we should keep in mind that Apple has been growing its shipments of Macs at roughly ten times the rate of the Windows PC industry for the last couple of years. Not only is it quite unlikely that this trend has completely reversed, it should be remembered that this growth was accomplished with the current lineup of Mac products, not some mythical product lineup created out of thin air by people with no knowledge of what can be made and sold profitably.

[VoR]

What's the price of an ipod got to do with the mini?
What do you mean ending up like dell? A company that sells more with less profit margins, sounds pretty good for the consumer?

People questioning the price are just looking at the hardware inside and what you get for your money.

[manowarwi]

I do want to see a beefed up mini or other mid line desktop, and sure a little price drop would be nice, reasonable like $500 for a core2 and 1gb of ram, but I don't want to see a bunch of $300 celeron POS systems with the Apple name on it.

Part of Vista's great failure was they certified horribly underpowered systems to run it. Vista runs acceptably on a Intel Core 2 duo with 1 gb of ram, but have you seen it run with 512, or, gasp, 512 of ram AND a celeron processor?

One of Apple's greatest selling points was whatever machine you bought from them, you could be assured it will run the current OS more than adequately. Consumers aren't smart enough to differentiate between a cheap computer and a poor OS and that is something Apple cannot afford to get tangled up in.

[DaBrain]

No surprise here! Apple removes hardware options from the current line up. They limit choice to Glossy screens only (fine if you like glossy but for the approximately 50% that don't, not good). They completely ignore the mac-mini.

Apple needs better competitive pricing on some of their line ups!

Example: Just recently for the first time in a longggggg time I found a mac-mini in the refurb store for $699! That's just insane!

I was going to buy one for a xmass present IF they updated it! But, Nope didn't happen!

To me this is no surprise! Hopefully things change soon!

[PeteyKohut]

I blame the downturn on the glossy screens and the lack of firewire on the MacBooks!!! LOL!

And yes, I own a Macbook Pro WITH A GLOSSY screen (my 12" PBG4 simply wasn't up to the task of mobile video editing) and I can confirm that it is indeed dreadful. Nothing like looking at yourself all day while you edit. As soon as the matte screen comes back, this thing is going on eBay.

[ddTaylor]

It's not excessive if people pay it.

But there's never anything wrong with a price cut.

It is excessive to MOST. As I have said for YEARS - Apple would eventually hit the saturation point at their current pricing structure. I think that time is now and a little help from a poor economy may have sped-up that saturation point - but it is clear that those who want a Mac have bought one (for the most part) based on price. People can start flaming now - but Apple is a premium product in so far as people buy it at that elevated price. The price is now a stumbling block to many. In the age of $300 netbook computers and $500 quad-core PC's - a $1300 entry-level aluminum MacBook seems excessive to many people - especially in this economic climate. If Apple want to continue to grow is market share it MUST (in my opinion) lower the prices and offer more options for those who cannot and will not pay the Apple 'tax' such as it is.

Apple does not NEED to use Xeon CPU's in the Pro and there is not need for other choices Apple uses that does not directly affect the performance of the OS or the stability. If Apple would offer a Mac Mini with reasonable specs for $499 or even $399 they could capture the low-end market that will not and maybe cannot afford the high-end products. I do not think you will pull market from the high-end products as those are a different type of user.

I am sure the Mac elitists are already sharpening their keyboards for a smart-ass comment but I think Apple has saturated the market for high-end, boutique products and in order to compete in this current market climate they need more choices and a lower entry-level price point.

Again - this is just my opinion from a reasonably well educated mid-30's male with a small business and a bit of experience with how the real-world works. Apple is a fine company and one that has had fantastic success recently with the model they are using now - but how well Apple succeeds from this point on is a factor of Steve Jobs and his desire to cater to a client without the ability or desire to buy a $2000 MBP or $3500 MP.

D

[oscillatewildly]

It's not the laptop bump in November/December, nor the bump in desktops in January/February 2009, it's March, April and May 2009 when the effect of the recession begins nibbling at Apple - Winter bills, credit card splurge, more layoffs... As for income, high or low earner, blue or white collar, you are not immune.

[Penguinwrangler]

I think there are some substantial other factors being missed here, and that's the overall trend in the market from desktops to laptops on the consumer level. First, the gap between what you can cram into a laptop and a desktop has shrunk (of course) dramatically in the last 8-10 years. New high-end consumers (college age kids and those in their mid-twenties) are much more likely (my opinion only) to purchase a laptop than a desktop these days. Mobility has always been an incentive, and now that the spec hit you take for getting that mobility is almost insignificant, I think most people are ignoring the desktop and looking primarily at laptops. Second, but related, those people who are looking for the expandable power of a desktop tend to be gamers, and in my experience those people are going to go with a Windows based PC or build their own because of the (correctly) perceived notion that that offers better graphics and software interoperability. So you can rant about the price points and the margins and the lack of a cheap piece of crap tower in the Mac line, but at the end of the day, this consumer report may not be telling us anything about any of those things.

[ddTaylor]

yeah since dell and hp also make all their laptops from one piece of aluminum. and have multi-touch trackpads installed on all laptops..


come on....lets get our facts straight.

He is correct in his statement for the most part - you picked two items to point out that are exceptions to his comment. The parts ARE basically the same and the price is high. Period.

Did Apple NEED to use a single piece of aluminum? No - it allowed them to do something with the physical appearance and design. There is nothing wrong with that - but people want and have been ASKING for a lower-priced Mac llne-up for YEARS! I would rather have a lower-priced notebook that looks nice but has OS X for $800 that did NOT have a milled aluminum 'brick'. Many people would rather have a nice-looking notebook for less without the hype and gimmicks of Apple yet still runs OS X. I am a huge Apple fan and own many Apple computers and NO PC's save for my Acer One. I would LOVE to see Apple more price competitive - but, as my Aunt from down South would say, 'it ain't gonna happen'!

D

[IJ Reilly]

I am sure the Mac elitists are already sharpening their keyboards for a smart-ass comment but I think Apple has saturated the market for high-end, boutique products and in order to compete in this current market climate they need more choices and a lower entry-level price point.

As if I needed one, this is a perfect example of the kind of baloney I referred to above. You make this argument with absolutely no data to back it up, nothing more than your own opinion -- and then have the gall to paint anyone who might not agree as "Mac elitists" making "smart-ass comments."

[Beric]

Apple's prices on the new notebooks are the entire problem. 6 months ago I was a Mac user all the way. Now I'm looking at PC's more seriously than I ever imagined. That fact that a MBP's worth of specs can be found for $1000 means that I have looked closely at various notebook PC's - and realized that being able to run OS X is simply not worth the 100% price increase. Apple is also no longer the frontrunner when it comes to design, with many manufacturers now competing for that title. Apple has, frankly, made some serious missteps in the past year, and it is hurting them.

[Henri Gaudier]

The desktop sales dont surprise me. The whole range needs a speed/ram/hd bump and a price drop so no shocks there that people are hanging on. It's the portable figures that surprise me - with Apple increasing it's prices last time round to what they were around 5 years ago ... I'm amazed that anyone outside the US is still buying them. They need to drop the price by 30% to be remotely competitive. It's only the software investment that keeps many people tied to the same brand after all. If you could get iLife 2009 for windoze off the shelf from your local supermarket for 29€ I think a lot of people would bail out on Apple books for a supermarket Toshiba for 300€ /£200. You can get 5 of them for the same price as an Apple!

[Supermacguy]

People would be more likely to pay a PREMIUM for Apple if they knew Apple would stand behind their products.
That means five years of security updates for an operating system after the last date of retail sale.

WTF are you talking about? My 8 year old G4, that originally ran OS9, now runs OSX 10.4.11 and with all the security updates and latest iTunes? What more do you need?

[Penguinwrangler]

Apple is also no longer the frontrunner when it comes to design, with many manufacturers now competing for that title.

Really? To whom might you be referring?

[happydude]

i know this always hits the stock prices and the company takes a dive, but to be down only 1% from last year during the worst financial times our country has seen in decades is actually good news for apple. in a terrible economy, they are still strong.

i hope this helps them spur the need for an intermediate tower of some sort. i know people say that solution is called the imac, but you can't expand or play around inside the imac. either a glorified mini, a retooled mini, or a separate tower would be great.

and in any case the mini needs a serious update!

[Drag'nGT]

As others in here have stated or maybe I'm the first. The MB's should be only aluminum and start at $999 and the MBP's need that matte finish that everyone willing to pay that price has complained about. Not to mention that the MBP's are about $300-400 more than they should be.

Maybe this is driving the Mini upgrade because it will gain users since the economy isn't so hot.

[Penguinwrangler]

You can get 5 of them for the same price as an Apple!

And you'll need all five. One to use and four to cannibalize for parts.

[bigwig]

My local Apple Store recently removed its Mac Pros from retail display. I have no idea if that had anything to do with sales numbers.

[DamnDJ]

Good .. Maybe they will keep on falling and Apple will finally release OS X for the rest of the PC world. :D

[schneb]

But there's never anything wrong with a price cut.

Correct. However, what I agreed with most is this,

"Apple's desktop Macs (Mac mini, Mac Pro, iMac) are overdue for refresh."

That stopped me from buying any hardware in November. It will also stop me in January unless they do something to upgrade their CPU line. I want a headless Mac. I don't want it to be wimpy, and I don't want it to cost $2,500 either.

[msb65]

In my opinion Apple is out of touch with their customers regarding the computers they produce. They should understand that they have a lot of very loyal customers who want to keep supporting them, and don't mind paying a bit extra. I consider myself one of those customers.

However, if I am paying extra I want more options with respect to processor speed, memory, disk space, screen size etc. Don't expect me to pay extra because of ornamental stuff like a glass trackpad or unibody enclosure. Instead make it so I can easily replace memory and batteries, and access the hard drive. Apple needs to treat its customers with respect and shouldn't expect them to always remain loyal. Because they won't. After all, a cheap PC running Linux can do all of the same stuff. It might not look as good, but at least you won't get ripped off.

[jackfrost123]

There are many interesting and worthwhile posts here that have pretty much covered me, let me just reverberate that apple have been IDIOTS to not upgrade the mini for 16 months and to let the Imacs lag behind in terms of specs from the competition, that's not the way to cash on the hottest os at the moment that is os x (or even the iphone for that matter) over the god awful worst vista. If you want the hallo effect you can't snob customers who can afford your $500 option and somehow forget to update it for over a year....

[ray648]

If they are comparing their figures against figures from last year could this be partially caused by people buying new mac last november just after the release of leopard? I got my iMac last november because I was waiting for leopard to be released so I wouldn't have to pay for the update, maybe other people did the same and in fact it appears to be a drop because there was a spike last year?*

*This is purely speculation, as I have no idea if last years figures were abnormal in any way.

[iSee]

Apple isn't really even trying in the desktop area.

1. The iMac is a nice computer in a lot of ways but hardly covers the spectrum of the desktop computer market.

2. Then there's the so-old-I-forgot-it-hasn't-been-discontinued Mini. Update please!

3. The Mac Pro is also a nice computer but is in a tiny niche of the desktop market.

The mid-sized tower is so obviously missing. What *are* they so afraid of? That it would canibalize sales of the iMac makes no sense since they would surely increase overall Mac sales even if the iMac sold less. I'm sure they realize this since they went throught this with the iPod. I guess they want to stay focused on markets with bigger growth potential. You can't give up your foundation, though, while you're stretching for new markets.

[iOrlando]

i think these comments are getting more crazy as the thread gets longer.

Someone mentioned apple is losing out in design to "someone else." Show me the pictures... that comment is totally unfounded. If you are suggesting dell, lenovo, or HP laptops are now better in design than apple...i object to your reasoning.

As for prices and what not.....people..apple is still selling macs...you do know 1% negative growth means they are still selling roughly the same amount they did last year...millions...

I paid $1200 for my macbook...and not the 2000's or 3000's that i "need" to spend to get a mac with osx on it like someone previously wrote.

The economy sucks..we know...8% have no jobs...we know...apple sales will hurt...we know...but dont start to judge steve's strategy or plan....

you want apple to charge $600 for their laptops? watch what would happen in 2-5 years...

We will be the new lenovo and macbooks will be stocked at your local walmart and target.

[Winni]

"We don't know how to make a 500 Dollar computer that's not utter crap." - Steve Jobs

Well, the people who are currently having Apple's lunch obviously know how to make a 300 Dollar computer that consumers are buying like crazy. That's what you get when you try to ignore that the world's economy is going downhill and when you still only focus on the high end market.

The same is happening to the arrogant American automobile industry. For more than a decade, their European dependencies have been telling them that the world's running out of oil and that gasoline will become unaffordable. They just ignored it. At the end of next year, most of them will deservedly have disappeared into history.

This recession won't be over soon. Like the Great Depression in the late 20s/early 30s of the last century, this one will be around for a couple of years, and we have not even seen the tip of the iceberg yet.

Maybe Apple should stop developing and selling computers entirely and just focus on the software - lower production and development costs, MUCH higher margins. (Do I hear the cry "HERESY"!? ;-)

[iSee]

In my opinion Apple is out of touch with their customers regarding the computers they produce. They should understand that they have a lot of very loyal customers who want to keep supporting them, and don't mind paying a bit extra. I consider myself one of those customers.

However, if I am paying extra I want more options with respect to processor speed, memory, disk space, screen size etc. Don't expect me to pay extra because of ornamental stuff like a glass trackpad or unibody enclosure. Instead make it so I can easily replace memory and batteries, and access the hard drive. Apple needs to treat its customers with respect and shouldn't expect them to always remain loyal. Because they won't. After all, a cheap PC running Linux can do all of the same stuff. It might not look as good, but at least you won't get ripped off.


LOL. While I generally agree with you're saying, I've got to ask: How in the world did you become a loyal customer while expecting these things from Apple? They have never been good at offering lots of build and upgrade options.

[msb65]

and macbooks will be stocked at your local walmart and target.

Oh the horror! That means those poor people will be able to buy them!

If you want a status symbol try this: http://www.luxuo.com/2008/12/versace-hotel-to-refrigerate-beach.html

[IJ Reilly]

Reality: These are forecasts, and for only one month.

Reality: Apple has been growing their Mac shipments at ten time the rate of the Windows PC industry for the last couple of years.

Reality: This growth rate occurred on the basis of the current Mac product lineup.

Conclusion: The idea that Apple must completely revamp its approach to selling Macs is not based on reality.

[jackfrost123]

Reality: These are forecasts, and for only one month.

Reality: Apple has been growing their Mac shipments at ten time the rate of the Windows PC industry for the last couple of years.

Reality: This growth rate occurred on the basis of the current Mac product lineup.

Conclusion: The idea that Apple must completely revamp its approach to selling Macs is not based on reality.

Yeah but this is not what the majority is saying most here find it unaccepable that the entry mini has been left to rot in disrepair and hasn't been updated in computer aeons and that the possibility of a product between the imac and the mini hasn't been considered at all. Having said all that, you do have a point, but I wonder how much of that growth is os related and how much is hardware related, I would claim that the force that drives apple's insane growth so far is by far os x.

[kjs862]

I don't know what is report is talking about, I didn't even know Apple sold a a desktop computer.

Mac Pro - Workstation
iMac - all in one
mac mini - who know what that is

[Winni]

We will be the new lenovo and macbooks will be stocked at your local walmart and target.

And who except for a fistful of product snobs would actually give a crap about that? It doesn't hurt me or my personality should this ever happen, I can assure you that. And my bank account would probably just love it.

Besides, Lenovo Thinkpads beat the crap out of Apple's "Pro" notebook line in the business world. Somebody at Lenovo (and before that, somebody at IBM) knows what business/corporate customers want and need. Now the marketing folks at Apple on the other hand think that when they put a "Pro" label on something they will already touch base.

No matter how you want to look at it, PC notebooks with comparable technical specifications costs between one third and a half of what a MacBook Pro costs. You pay a LOT for the "unibody" design and the "privilege" to run OS X. If paying so much more makes people feel special, they've got a serious personality problem.

[Winni]

I don't know what is report is talking about, I didn't even know Apple sold a a desktop computer.

Mac Pro - Workstation
iMac - all in one
mac mini - who know what that is

iMac - It's an all in one DESKTOP
Mac Mini - That's also a (small) DESKTOP

[XeshaBlu]

There sure is a lot of whistling past the graveyard going on around here. Discount those whose predictions have been accurate at your peril.

I'm especially fond of those who resort to the old 'Apple is sitting on a pile of cash' argument. Big companies with lots of cash never go under, right?

And as for the idea that Apples traditional customer base - movie makers, musicians, and publishers - will continue to buy in a sinking economy; I sure want some of that sticky bud. Guess I was unaware that jobless people love to spend money on frivolous entertainment products.

[msb65]

And as for the idea that Apples traditional customer base - movie makers, musicians, and publishers - will continue to buy in a sinking economy; I sure want some of that sticky bud. Guess I was unaware that jobless people love to spend money on frivolous entertainment products.

It's pretty ironic that those listed are traditionally "the starving artists".

I wonder if Linux will ever come close to those applications. If so peace out Apple.

<gasp> Did I just say that?

[Tosser]

yeah since dell and hp also make all their laptops from one piece of aluminum. and have multi-touch trackpads installed on all laptops..


come on....lets get our facts straight.


What about magnesium roll cage, titanium alloys, carbon fibre, fingerprint reader, three usb ports, expresscard slot (well – on a 13-incher) and on and on? Yup, that's right.

Anyway, as you missed it: The point was that the parts that are at the core of a system, they're all basically the same.

Further, one could easily argue that Apple tends to use last generation hardware. Take for instance the resolution of the 15-incher –*the competitors offer the same resolution but at 13 inches.

Getting your facts straight?

[IJ Reilly]

Yeah but this is not what the majority is saying most here find it unaccepable that the entry mini has been left to rot in disrepair and hasn't been updated in computer aeons and that the possibility of a product between the imac and the mini hasn't been considered at all. Having said all that, you do have a point, but I wonder how much of that growth is os related and how much is hardware related, I would claim that the force that drives apple's insane growth so far is by far os x.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the mini doesn't need to be refreshed. Obviously this is overdue, and is likely to happen in January. Beyond that, I'm hearing arguments that Apple must now immediately start selling everybody's pet products, and that they have to sell them at prices that compete with the cheapest Windows PCs. As if Apple has been doing it wrong all along and has to completely change their approach to the market. I think there's a lot of instant amnesia going around.

[midiotlv]

It is the lack of firewire on the MacBook (and a troublesome FW chipset on the MBP). :)

Just kidding, maybe...I know it cost them my laptop purchase.

-D

[kingtj]

Let's say you're 100% correct and Apple hit this "saturation point". Nobody else on earth wants to switch to a Mac. All of their sales are now going to existing Mac owners. The question then becomes this: Does Apple care?

I'd say no, they don't. Their company is magnitudes smaller than companies like Microsoft (who don't even attempt to build a computer -- only an operating system, applications for it, and some peripherals). They're really not equipped to *handle* having too much "market share".

Rather than cutting a lot of corners to offer cheap Macs "for the masses", Apple went a different route -- selling iPods and iPhones and Apple TV boxes that appeal to "everyone else", with lower, more affordable price-points.

Apple knows and practices something their competitors obviously forgot all about. Often, it's a better place to be as a company selling your goods to a smaller, but loyal audience, than to try to provide the "standard issue" products sold everywhere and used by everyone.

To use the "food analogy", many people invested in a McDonalds franchise, because it's proven to be a money-maker and has huge popularity. Nonetheless, gourmet chefs still enjoy a good living running high-end gourmet restaurants. Which one winds up more "respected" for putting out a quality product?


It is excessive to MOST. As I have said for YEARS - Apple would eventually hit the saturation point at their current pricing structure. I think that time is now and a little help from a poor economy may have sped-up that saturation point - but it is clear that those who want a Mac have bought one (for the most part) based on price. People can start flaming now - but Apple is a premium product in so far as people buy it at that elevated price. The price is now a stumbling block to many. In the age of $300 netbook computers and $500 quad-core PC's - a $1300 entry-level aluminum MacBook seems excessive to many people - especially in this economic climate. If Apple want to continue to grow is market share it MUST (in my opinion) lower the prices and offer more options for those who cannot and will not pay the Apple 'tax' such as it is.

Apple does not NEED to use Xeon CPU's in the Pro and there is not need for other choices Apple uses that does not directly affect the performance of the OS or the stability. If Apple would offer a Mac Mini with reasonable specs for $499 or even $399 they could capture the low-end market that will not and maybe cannot afford the high-end products. I do not think you will pull market from the high-end products as those are a different type of user.

I am sure the Mac elitists are already sharpening their keyboards for a smart-ass comment but I think Apple has saturated the market for high-end, boutique products and in order to compete in this current market climate they need more choices and a lower entry-level price point.

Again - this is just my opinion from a reasonably well educated mid-30's male with a small business and a bit of experience with how the real-world works. Apple is a fine company and one that has had fantastic success recently with the model they are using now - but how well Apple succeeds from this point on is a factor of Steve Jobs and his desire to cater to a client without the ability or desire to buy a $2000 MBP or $3500 MP.

D

[HyperZboy]

iMac - It's an all in one DESKTOP
Mac Mini - That's also a (small) DESKTOP

I personally don't consider either of those Macs a true "desktop computer", and neither is certainly a midrange desktop or mini-tower, but maybe it's semantics.

But if you want to say they are desktops, I'll give you that.

Now WHY aren't they SELLING well is the REAL problem, huh?
And worse yet, why are they UNDER-SELLING Windows desktops?

The people who are grasping at straws here to defend Apple just look plain silly. The sales #s speak for themselves and Steve Jobs will have to explain them at the next quarterly sales report. It's not gonna be pretty I bet too. Only Steve Jobs and Apple are to blame for this, wrong products/pricing for the current economic times, period, end of story.

And even if Apple fixes the product line in January, they will still be like 2-4 months behind the curve. All the current PC manufacturers already have these products that Apple doesn't currently sell. Apple will be losing market share once again and playing catchup, no, not in design quality or KEWLNESS, simply on value and having a product people need for the times.

I rest my case.

[IJ Reilly]

I rest my case.

How can you rest your case when you haven't made one?

[HyperZboy]

How can you rest your case when you haven't made one?

Sorry, but you're gonna spill the koolaid all over yourself in a spit-take when you see Apple's NEXT month desktop sales #s.

Trust me, I've made my case quite well.

Just step away from Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field and you'll see it. :D

[MrCrowbar]

I personally don't consider either of those Macs a true "desktop computer", and neither is certainly a midrange desktop or mini-tower, but maybe it's semantics.

But if you want to say they are desktops, I'll give you that.

Now WHY aren't they SELLING well is the REAL problem, huh?
And worse yet, why are they UNDER-SELLING Windows desktops?
I rest my case.

Well, people nowadays want laptops. You can use them on your couch while watching TV, making presentations, taking notes at school, etc. The computeing power is more than sufficient for all of that.

Desktops makes sense if you like games or when you have a desk job. Both of these things work "better" on Windows anyway.

Personally, I have an "old" Macbook as main computer and a (still current model) Mac Mini as Media Center / Server at home. A big advantage of laptop hardware is that it's quiet and power efficient, both things that are very important to me and lots of consumers.

[IJ Reilly]

Sorry, but you're gonna spill the koolaid all over yourself in a spit-take when you see Apple's NEXT month desktop sales #s.

Trust me, I've made my case quite well.

Just step away from Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field and you'll see it. :D

Nice non-defense of your non-argument.

[ddTaylor]

As if I needed one, this is a perfect example of the kind of baloney I referred to above. You make this argument with absolutely no data to back it up, nothing more than your own opinion -- and then have the gall to paint anyone who might not agree as "Mac elitists" making "smart-ass comments."

Did you ever take economics either MACRO or MICRO in college? My guess is NO otherwise you would not have stuck your foot in your mouth. When you are a premium product by definition you have a smaller market-share. That is simply the law of economics - have you heard of that, right? Give me a break - I went to college and took economics for years. Just because Steve decides to go a different direction than commonly held economic principals does make him right. He drove Apple into the ground and was ousted once before so he is fallible - contrary to what the hoards of Apple zealots think.

And I could be wrong as well - although I have several hundred years of MACRO economics on my side. This is a RUMORS forum and I have every right to say what I want when I want to without any crap from someone like you. I can express my OPINION based on ANYTHING I like! And you, my friend, fit the bill to a T in my first comment.

Merry Christmas and here is to LOWER Apple prices...

D

[robanga]

Simply indicative of consumer spending in the worst economic scare since 1982, any other argument is wishful thinking.

[leekohler]

i dont know about you guys...but i liked my 7.7% discount on my macbook on black friday......

imporant to note once again: macbook sales are still postive. Desktop computers are the problem (will be solved in January).

It would be nice if we could get a mid-range tower. An iMac is NOT the same thing at all.

[ddTaylor]

Let's say you're 100% correct and Apple hit this "saturation point". Nobody else on earth wants to switch to a Mac. All of their sales are now going to existing Mac owners. The question then becomes this: Does Apple care?

I'd say no, they don't. Their company is magnitudes smaller than companies like Microsoft (who don't even attempt to build a computer -- only an operating system, applications for it, and some peripherals). They're really not equipped to *handle* having too much "market share".

Rather than cutting a lot of corners to offer cheap Macs "for the masses", Apple went a different route -- selling iPods and iPhones and Apple TV boxes that appeal to "everyone else", with lower, more affordable price-points.

Apple knows and practices something their competitors obviously forgot all about. Often, it's a better place to be as a company selling your goods to a smaller, but loyal audience, than to try to provide the "standard issue" products sold everywhere and used by everyone.

To use the "food analogy", many people invested in a McDonalds franchise, because it's proven to be a money-maker and has huge popularity. Nonetheless, gourmet chefs still enjoy a good living running high-end gourmet restaurants. Which one winds up more "respected" for putting out a quality product?

Do some research - the failure rate for a non-franchise restaurant in the United States in 70% - the failure rate for a Mickie D's, 3%. I rest my case.

D

[hulugu]

Flat is flat not going down and it has everything to do with the economy.....

Ideally, of course, one would want consistent growth, but even a flat rate means Apple is still selling lots of computers.

This is an indicator that Apple need to the following;
1) Update desktop lineups more often/consistently
2) Offer something between The Core 2 Duo iMac, and the Xeon Mac Pro. I know several people who have purchased PCs because they didn't need the power of the Xeon, but did need the Core 2 Quad, and they didn't want a built in screen. So either extend both lines to overlap with Core 2 Quad systems, or create a new Desktop (or even an expanded Mac mini line) that fill the void.
3) Cut prices more often, instead of changing prices when models are updated.

TEG

Apple's clearly more interested in laptops. The NPD numbers indicate that this part of the company is doing well enough to nearly offset the desktop numbers. Of course, I'd like to see the desktops upgraded, as well, but I think the importance of desktops is overstated.

Good .. Maybe they will keep on falling and Apple will finally release OS X for the rest of the PC world. :D

Yes because when you have a forecast of flat growth, you should panic and destroy your business model.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the mini doesn't need to be refreshed. Obviously this is overdue, and is likely to happen in January. Beyond that, I'm hearing arguments that Apple must now immediately start selling everybody's pet products, and that they have to sell them at prices that compete with the cheapest Windows PCs. As if Apple has been doing it wrong all along and has to completely change their approach to the market. I think there's a lot of instant amnesia going around.

During the last downturn in 2001, Jobs talked about how Apple would innovate through this period. I hope Apple continues to do the same thing this time rather than race for the bottom in pricing or, as one poster above suggested, completely alter their business model.

How can you rest your case when you haven't made one?

His case got tired and had to sit down. He was being compassionate.

[Penguinwrangler]

Do some research - the failure rate for a non-franchise restaurant in the United States in 70% - the failure rate for a Mickie D's, 3%. I rest my case.


Not to be too droll here, but you're comparing apples and oranges. What's the failure-rate for non-McDonald's would-be franchises? That's the number you can compare to.

[iOrlando]

what a relief...

apparently posters were being detoured onto this thread from other sites, which included:

dellsareamazing.com

stevejobsfailedeconomies.com

ilovemyfingerprintreader.com

ipaid1200andalligotwasthismacbook.com

walmartisdabomb.com

[awesomebase]

No question that Apple is doing well despite the economic crisis and having a long-in-the-tooth desktop computer lineup. I think the fact that they don't have a mid-range tower in their lineup is starting to hurt them though. Laptops rule the roost, but people are reluctant to buy an iMac when they have perfectly good working monitors at home. A $1299 mid-range desktop would go a long way to bringing in new customers. Updating the mini absolutely necessary -- I just can't believe it has been this long with no update. This is the system that is "supposed" to bring in Windows converts. That means they should have been paying extra attention to keeping this computer current and relevant. They probably have an economic model for keeping it anitquated to boost sales of more expensive systems. But I'm sure there are a significant number of people that would buy them if they were updated and more current.
Mac Pros should be offering a lot more for the money. They should be stuffing them with 1TB drives and min. 4GB or even 8GB of RAM. It is supposed to be a "workstation".
The iMacs are the best of the bunch in terms of value, but not having a matte screen option rules it out for much of their core loyalists. Other than that, I'm surprised anybody has been buying these lately... way too pricey for what you're getting right now. Though I'm sure value will be added shortly after the Mac Expo in a few weeks...

[jbernie]

Apple has been pushing users towards laptops for a while now and with the redesigned laptops as well as the neglect towards the Mini this is to be expected (which is why Apple's notebook sales are outperforming the PC sales). Times like this I'm sure Apple is happy they are sitting on 25 billion in cash.

Regarding the notebook sales I am wondering how much of the 22% improvement was related to Apple taking so long to release the new notebooks and people were finally upgrading. We would probably need to see sales for each month from say July through end of January to get a much better picture on the health of notebook sales.

[macall75]

I dont think they should cut there prices, there computers are very robust and they use excellents parts and well put together, you pay for what you get, my imac 2003 has outlived my pc already, and Iam using the imac everyday

[Tosser]

I dont think they should cut there prices, there computers are very robust and they use excellents parts and well put together, you pay for what you get, my imac 2003 has outlived my pc already, and Iam using the imac everyday

Hmm, five years ago I might have agreed with you. But quite a lot can happen in those five years. What makes you think the quality today is the same as it was in 2003?

Personally, it's the lack of QC in recent years that has pushed me to move on.

[rickag]

Nope, no one wants a flexible, upgradable computer, nope, no one. :rolleyes:

It amazes me that anyone would argue that Apple couldn't make a profit selling a mid to upper end consumer tower. These threads turn into xMac threads continually over the last several years.

Nope, no one wants a flexible, upgradable computer, nope, no one. :rolleyes:

[Tosser]

what a relief...

apparently posters were being detoured onto this thread from other sites, which included:

dellsareamazing.com

stevejobsfailedeconomies.com

ilovemyfingerprintreader.com

ipaid1200andalligotwasthismacbook.com

walmartisdabomb.com

I'm sorry, but we can't all be members of theipodcrowd.com, jobcandonowrong.com, and touchpadisthereasonibuymacs.org.

[Peace]

Since NPD says Windows boxes did better than Apple boxes year over year for November I'd venture to guess it has to do with two things.

Mac's need refreshing and the Windows commercial blitz about Vista/Mohave may have actually had an effect.

[Tallest Skil]

what a relief...

apparently posters were being detoured onto this thread from other sites, which included:

dellsareamazing.com

stevejobsfailedeconomies.com

ilovemyfingerprintreader.com

ipaid1200andalligotwasthismacbook.com

walmartisdabomb.com

Maybe not, but Googling "ilovemyfingerprintreader.com" pulls up this thread and your post now...:D

[akm3]

Apple should ignore all this and stay the course.

Don't devalue your brand to keep some quarterly numbers high - use the cash hoard to ride out the recession and retain the premium status.

That is what I (and I would bet, Steve Jobs) should do.

-Allen

[therealdt]

what a relief...

apparently posters were being detoured onto this thread from other sites, which included:


ipaid1200andalligotwasthismacbook.com




good one

[IJ Reilly]

Did you ever take economics either MACRO or MICRO in college? My guess is NO otherwise you would not have stuck your foot in your mouth. When you are a premium product by definition you have a smaller market-share. That is simply the law of economics - have you heard of that, right? Give me a break - I went to college and took economics for years. Just because Steve decides to go a different direction than commonly held economic principals does make him right. He drove Apple into the ground and was ousted once before so he is fallible - contrary to what the hoards of Apple zealots think.

And I could be wrong as well - although I have several hundred years of MACRO economics on my side. This is a RUMORS forum and I have every right to say what I want when I want to without any crap from someone like you. I can express my OPINION based on ANYTHING I like! And you, my friend, fit the bill to a T in my first comment.

Merry Christmas and here is to LOWER Apple prices...

D

This is utter nonsense. You might want to skip the insults and the emotional appeals, and stick to the facts. And what are the facts? The facts are that Apple has grown Mac shipments at ten times the rate of the Windows PC industry over the last couple of years. The facts are that they have done so with the current Mac product lineup. Does it seem even remotely plausible that this trend has completely reversed in one month? I don't care if you're a Nobel Laureate in economics, this doesn't make sense on its face.

[Chappers]

Apple's prices on the new notebooks are the entire problem. 6 months ago I was a Mac user all the way. Now I'm looking at PC's more seriously than I ever imagined. That fact that a MBP's worth of specs can be found for $1000 means that I have looked closely at various notebook PC's - and realized that being able to run OS X is simply not worth the 100% price increase. Apple is also no longer the frontrunner when it comes to design, with many manufacturers now competing for that title. Apple has, frankly, made some serious missteps in the past year, and it is hurting them.

Apple notebooks have far out performed PC notebooks on sales so you would appear to have got that wrong. You've been complaining about the price of Apples for some time but if you do switch - then buy a Dell they are the company that research shows to be improving on matters of quality and customer service etc. They are a distant second to Apple (also improving) but forget HP - they're going down.
The only other nice looking laptops are Sony but mosx says they're rubbish so I wouldn't buy one of those.

[actionbastard]

of desktops are due to the anticipation that has been building since September for a refresh of everything that wasn't a Macbook. Apple needs to cut this stupid half-yearly product intro crap down to quarterly so sales maintain a little bit more 'bouyancy'.

[Philter]

Wait a minute, Apple makes computers? :confused:

Sorry guys, I jumped off the Apple bandwagon this past summer and so far there's nothing to make me regret that choice. The days of wasting money on expensive brands have come to an end.

[msb65]

Wait a minute, Apple makes computers? :confused:

Sorry guys, I jumped off the Apple bandwagon this past summer and so far there's nothing to make me regret that choice. The days of wasting money on expensive brands have come to an end.

What brand do you buy now?

[gregorsamsa]

Sorry guys, I jumped off the Apple bandwagon this past summer and so far there's nothing to make me regret that choice. The days of wasting money on expensive brands have come to an end.

I believe a growing number of others may be at least considering other options also. That said, I think the desktop results are hardly that bad when seen in context, not least because many people are waiting to see what Apple do in January before buying.

A more portentous factor for future Apple sales is when one combines a number of recent issues that seem to be causing significant numbers of once loyal Mac users to look at alternatives: for eg., no more matte screen options (bar 17" MBP, which is unlikely to last) leaving many pro users questioning whether sticking with Apple is right for them in future, Firewire terminated far too prematurely from MacBooks, price increases on all Mac laptops (at least here in the UK) despite a recession & competitors dropping their prices, awful neglect of the Mini, lack of Blu-ray on all Macs, etc.

Individually, all these issues may have little impact, but collectively they may seriously affect Mac market share in future. - FWIW, I have 2 Macs, but I'm one of those keeping my options open about what computer I'll be buying next year & another Mac is far from guaranteed.

[matticus008]

iMac - It's an all in one DESKTOP
Mac Mini - That's also a (small) DESKTOP
The point highlights the fundamental reason that people have not been hitting. Neither of those products actually competes with your basic budget midtower.

Desktop sales are down overall because of three basic reasons: the economy, shifts to notebooks, and marginal performance gains. Those who are buying are buying the econoboxes--higher end machines and niche products in general are suffering an above-average cut as the low end increases relative market share.

Apple would be expected to have a higher-than mean loss in sales as a result, aided in part by old products in the tail ends of their demand curves.

Now WHY aren't they SELLING well is the REAL problem, huh?
And worse yet, why are they UNDER-SELLING Windows desktops?
The data doesn't demonstrate that. The data shows a shift to the low-end, where Apple has no products to compete. There is a cyclical loss because of old products as well. Neither of these indicate a problem.
Only Steve Jobs and Apple are to blame for this, wrong products/pricing for the current economic times, period, end of story.
And? During times of economic hardship, a company with a diverse set of products will often see demand diminish in some of them. That does not mean they have to stop selling those products or make any radical changes. It simply means you have to look to other products to make up the difference.

Notebook sales are up 22%, resulting in a net curb of 1%. In an economic downturn, staying that close to flat is beating the overall economy. All things being equal, with consumer spending down 10-15%, sales should be down the same.

The personal computer market as a whole is roughly flat (desktops down 15%, notebooks up 15%). Apple is roughly in line, given the inherent error in the projections. This does not suggest a problem.
All the current PC manufacturers already have these products that Apple doesn't currently sell.
And yet they are not enjoying better overall sales, and all of them are struggling to stay profitable as they have been for years. Meanwhile, Apple continues to make money and maintain its relative status quo within the industry.

And I could be wrong as well - although I have several hundred years of MACRO economics on my side.
You don't appear to be using that "centuries" of wisdom at the moment.
It is excessive to MOST. As I have said for YEARS - Apple would eventually hit the saturation point at their current pricing structure.
So?
Apple does not NEED to use Xeon CPU's in the Pro and there is not need for other choices Apple uses that does not directly affect the performance of the OS or the stability.
Spoken like someone totally ignoring the lessons that centuries of economics should be teaching. You are reducing the market to a single variable and assuming that competition and success depends solely on price per specs. Every decision made impacts sales, and every alteration involves a consequence. Every improvement has an attendant step backwards, and the trick is accurately navigating an array of choices to minimize losses. Ditching those "other choices Apple uses" would change the entire character of their product line. Such a radical risk is only merited if there is an immediately foreseeable problem.
If Apple would offer a Mac Mini with reasonable specs for $499 or even $399 they could capture the low-end market that will not and maybe cannot afford the high-end products.
Why would they want to? (Edit: capture the low end, not offer a decent mini)

[akm3]

Wait a minute, Apple makes computers? :confused:

Sorry guys, I jumped off the Apple bandwagon this past summer and so far there's nothing to make me regret that choice. The days of wasting money on expensive brands have come to an end.

Then why are you here?

[IJ Reilly]

During the last downturn in 2001, Jobs talked about how Apple would innovate through this period. I hope Apple continues to do the same thing this time rather than race for the bottom in pricing or, as one poster above suggested, completely alter their business model.

I agree. Apple is bound to get thumped by this recession, just like everybody else, but not in a way that demands a compete restructuring of their business model, which has been a huge success by any definition. The people who are saying so are the same ones who have always been complaining that Apple doesn't offer the Mac of their dreams -- and now are using this report as ammunition to "prove" that they were right all along. Pish-tosh.

What bears close cross examination in these numbers is the rather bizarre implication that the Windows PC industry, which has been growing in the low single digits for the last couple of years, has suddenly started growing at a much higher rate, and Apple, which as been growing its Mac shipments at 20-30% YOY has suddenly seen its growth rate reduced to zero -- all in the face of the same worldwide recession. This seems so completely counterintuitive to me that I have a hard time believing that this is how it will shake out when the Q4 CY 2008 numbers are finalized.

But never mind, pass the Kool-Aid. Apparently that's the only response to these questions that anyone really needs.

[akm3]

People who used to buy cheap desktops that Apple doesn't make are now buying cheap laptops that Apple doesn't make. As a result, it makes it look like Apple's desktop sales are down, and Apple is losing notebook marketshare.

In reality, these buyers are people who never would have bought an Apple product, likely even at equivalent prices, anyway.

Again, Apple should stay the course, they have the money to weather this recession, and not devalue their brand by making cheap stuff.

[iOrlando]

What brand do you buy now?

Crayola


Heard they have a great sale on crayons and pencils.

[archipellago]

Apple's computers are built in China, along with all the other crap we buy. There's no reason for prices to be as high as they are.
The only reason to justify it would be if they were built in the U.S. The MBP is built in China.
Update the Mini and stop being so arrogant, Apple.


WINNER...

apple just use the same crappy PC parts (foxconn boards etc) that can be found in a multitude of 'beige' boxes. they just put them all together in a fancy box, stick on osx which is majority GNU and then charge 3 times the price for it all.

brilliant business as the kicker is that lots of suckers believe what Justin Long says and buy them.!!!

[pubwvj]

"Flat sales"

Mean while, the rest of the industry had negative sales along with the economy being massively down. So in relative terms Apple's doing great.

[localoid]

Simply indicative of consumer spending in the worst economic scare since 1982, any other argument is wishful thinking.

As you've pointed out recently in the infamous Firewire thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=583377) it makes good business sense for Apple to abandon some of its long time customers, because their numbers are so small:

"Alienating the traditional base? Ok, some of the traditional base no doubt."

And explaining how Apple won't lose any great deal of money of they lose business from audio and video people since their numbers are so few:

"Without a doubt the entire market for iPhones, iTunes, home video, web work and relatively safe computing (from malware) is a market that dwarfs video and audio production. In business only the balance sheet matters."

And pointing out that it would no great loss if audio and video producers left the Apple fold:

"Hey if it is produced on those awesome Windows Vista, 7, 8, 9 PC's it will still be viewable under OS X."



Yes. What else could it possibly be (other than a bad economy) that's caused this slump in Apple Mac sales? :rolleyes:

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/MK-AT476_APPLE_NS_20081215224816.gif

[archipellago]

Flat is flat not going down and it has everything to do with the economy. I'll bet that sales go up in December. People are holding off until the holidays to buy.

And no, Apple does NOT need to cut prices. The products have never been over-inflated like houses or shares of dot-com stocks. If you went into a Ferrari dealership and said "Your sales are flat. Time to lower your prices," they'd thank you for the best bought of ROTFL they've had in months.


thats probably why FIAT is now effectively bust...:rolleyes:

[matticus008]

People who used to buy cheap desktops that Apple doesn't make are now buying cheap laptops that Apple doesn't make. As a result, it makes it look like Apple's desktop sales are down, and Apple is losing notebook marketshare.
Actually, the numbers show that Apple continues to gain notebook market share at the expense of competitors.

Mean while, the rest of the industry had negative sales along with the economy being massively down. So in relative terms Apple's doing great.
The PC industry overall is up about 1.5%, so in relative terms Apple is down slightly (but within the margin, so technically at par) in terms of units shipped. They continue to outperform the industry in profitability, though.

apple just use the same crappy PC parts (foxconn boards etc) that can be found in a multitude of 'beige' boxes. they just put them all together in a fancy box, stick on osx which is majority GNU and then charge 3 times the price for it all.
I'm curious where I can find an exact MacBook replacement for $430. Please share; I would very much like to buy one for my niece instead of an Ubuntu eee.

[rickag]

Here are the numbers I got from Apple's filings. If I made any errors please feel free to correct me.

Quarterly Report Desktops in 1000s Laptops in 1000s
12/25/04 ______________623
3/26/05 ______________608
6/25/05 ______________687
12/31/05 ______________667
4/1/06 ______________614
7/1/06 ______________529
12/30/06 ______________637
3/31/07 ______________626
7/25/07 ______________634
12/29/07 ______________977_____________ 1,342
4/8/08 ______________856_____________ 1,433
7/21/08 ______________943_____________ 1,553
10/21/08 ______________943_____________ 1,675

I believe these numbers should dash any hope for an xMac like computer, unfortunately, for I believe it would actually help stimulate more growth for Apple, but these numbers don't back me up. It is sad that Apple is abandoning many of the consumer that would prefer such a machine.

[BRLawyer]

I didn't expect for desktop sales to be declining more than Windows...

Who should be surprised by that?

Firstly, Apple has been pushing laptops for years, and they constitute the majority of Apple computer sales for a long time already.

Secondly, it's obvious that, in a bankrupt country like the U.S., cheaper computers will be sold more easily, such as brandless machines, Dells and netbooks.

Thirdly, it's about time for Apple to prioritize more profitable and solid markets than the U.S..

Once the Greenspan-Shalom Bernanke money printing "crisis solutions" are no more and the trust in the dollar as a global currency disappears (since it's just based on "faith" and no objective parameters anymore), Apple will have a tough time selling anything in its home turf.

[Buachaill Dana]

Apple's computers are built in China, along with all the other crap we buy. There's no reason for prices to be as high as they are.
The only reason to justify it would be if they were built in the U.S. The MBP is built in China.
Update the Mini and stop being so arrogant, Apple.


WINNER...

apple just use the same crappy PC parts (foxconn boards etc) that can be found in a multitude of 'beige' boxes. they just put them all together in a fancy box, stick on osx which is majority GNU and then charge 3 times the price for it all.

brilliant business as the kicker is that lots of suckers believe what Justin Long says and buy them.!!!

Mostly True. macpros and imacs are made in europe. I used to build them myself. The laptops and ipods are made in china though. The parts are all stock parts you'll find in any regular PC. Apple just put them together in the factory, load osx and then ship them.
Thats why I find it hilarious when people on this site especially turn their noses up at regular PC's saying they're full of cheap parts when in fact apples own stuff uses similar hardware.

[matticus008]

Thats why I find it hilarious when people on this site especially turn their noses up at regular PC's saying they're full of cheap parts when in fact apples own stuff uses similar hardware.
PCs are not made from cheap parts. Cheap PCs are made from cheap parts. There is a reason for the price difference between a $700 Dell and a $1400 Dell with nearly identical specs, and it's not just because they can't keep track of their 10,000 products and eight different website sections.

[Hellhammer]

when not so good times are coming people stop spending money on stuff that is not so important (like things for entertaining).

[markgamber]

Apple has tons of cash sitting around, the economy won't bother them too much. The stockholders are those who are going to be screwed. Again. Then again, if you haven't sold yet, that's what you get for denying the obvious.

[Hellhammer]

Mostly True. macpros and imacs are made in europe. I used to build them myself. The laptops and ipods are made in china though. The parts are all stock parts you'll find in any regular PC. Apple just put them together in the factory, load osx and then ship them.
Thats why I find it hilarious when people on this site especially turn their noses up at regular PC's saying they're full of cheap parts when in fact apples own stuff uses similar hardware.

that's true! Apple uses exactly the same parts as PC's use. Apple does not make computer hardware (like procesoors etc.) There are big differences between PC's. you can buy acer for 300 euro and acer for a 1500 euro.

[localoid]

PCs are not made from cheap parts. Cheap PCs are made from cheap parts. There is a reason for the price difference between a $700 Dell and a $1400 Dell with nearly identical specs, and it's not just because they can't keep track of their 10,000 products and eight different website sections.

Right. The cheap components aren't sprinkled with magic pixie dust. :rolleyes:

[Buachaill Dana]

PCs are not made from cheap parts. Cheap PCs are made from cheap parts. There is a reason for the price difference between a $700 Dell and a $1400 Dell with nearly identical specs, and it's not just because they can't keep track of their 10,000 products and eight different website sections.


that's true! Apple uses exactly the same parts as PC's use. Apple does not make computer hardware (like procesoors etc.) There are big differences between PC's. you can buy acer for 300 euro and acer for a 1500 euro.


Im aware of that. Its just that around here there doesn't seem to be that distinction. Its nearly always PC=cheap parts and Mac=quality parts. Thats just incorrect.

[iParis]

Well, this news isn't bad...
It's more positive than negative actually.

One of the several reasons I think the Mac Mini will be upgraded and see as $100 price drop.

[localoid]

Im aware of that. Its just that around here there doesn't seem to be that distinction. Its nearly always PC=cheap parts and Mac=quality parts. Thats just incorrect.

Apparently some Mac people don't understand the fact that their beloved Macs are made by a Original Design Manufacturer (ODM). You hear a lot of them claiming "Mac notebooks are just so-oo much better the junk Asus makes" for example, despite the fact the Asustek has manufactured many of the Apple iBooks, PowerBooks and MacBooks over the years.

[GenNovE]

china=cheaper labor then the U.S.
So why does apple charge so much for their hardware when
spec wise you can buy a comparable machine with more extras for less?
(forget about the casing & the linux based operating system)

I understand the nature of business. Normally for example you lower the price of a cd to lets say 10.99 but you mark the price up on another product by 3 bucks. It evens the "sale" out.

But apple is the only company that cuts a lot of corners on what they give you but NEVER cut on price so their profit is 1000%. Have you ever asked why they have so much money sitting without a debt?

THEY CUT NO CORNERS TO HELP YOU LOYALIST OUT but they will cut on their hardware expenses to up their profits.

If this is not taking advantage of intensily amored apple loyals.
THEN BY ALL MEANS KEEP CALLING MICROSOFT THE MOST EVIL COPMPANY IN THE WORLD.

[Buachaill Dana]

Apparently some Mac people don't understand the fact that their beloved Macs are made by a Original Design Manufacturer (ODM). You hear a lot of them claiming "Mac notebooks are just so-oo much better the junk Asus makes" for example, despite the fact the Asustek has manufactured many of the Apple iBooks, PowerBooks and MacBooks over the years.

Absolutely. Another thing is Apple use IE instead of an Apple solution on theyre manufacturing lines for tracking the product from start to finnish.

[matticus008]

Right. The cheap components aren't sprinkled with magic pixie dust. :rolleyes:
If by "magic pixie dust" you mean 'passing strict review', then yes.

The electronics industry uses a number of methods to keep overall prices down, from multi-tier rating systems, grading criteria, tolerance standards to partial disablement and rebranding. Steep discounts are offered for the "almost" categories and for orders of superseded products. This allows the manufacturers to sell products that they'd otherwise have to discard, and allows consumers to have access to technology for a lower price. But as always, you get what you pay for, and that means assuming a higher risk (but may never have a problem, in which case the risk pays off).

The classic examples are the partly defective units sold as lower-end products (GeForce MX, Celerons) with defective components disabled (and sometimes non-defective parts to satisfy demand), processors sold as a lower-clock model to avoid triggering tolerance faults, LCD panels (lower grades sold in cheaper models or under different brand names), and deep out-of-spec and/or last-revision discounts on chipsets and ICs.

Different products use different components to achieve a desired target price. This is why you can find the same notebook in different models ranging from $700 to $2000, both within and across manufacturers.
Apparently some Mac people don't understand the fact that their beloved Macs are made by a Original Design Manufacturer (ODM). You hear a lot of them claiming "Mac notebooks are just so-oo much better the junk Asus makes" for example, despite the fact the Asustek has manufactured many of the Apple iBooks, PowerBooks and MacBooks over the years.
Many contract fabricators and manufacturers sell their own products, and in most cases they are cheaper and shoddier versions of the name-brand products they are under contract to make. Sometimes, these firms also put higher quality products into production in an effort to "break into" a market, as Asus has done in the past few years. The fact that the company makes good products under contract does not mean that they don't also make lesser products.

Samsung makes a great number of extremely high quality products; they also make a great deal of cheap crap, sometimes sourced by others and sometimes not.

[rhpenguin]

MMmmmmmmm.. Generic hardware in a beige box... om nom nom nom.

[hulugu]

Do some research - the failure rate for a non-franchise restaurant in the United States in 70% - the failure rate for a Mickie D's, 3%. I rest my case.

D

Mostly True. macpros and imacs are made in europe. I used to build them myself. The laptops and ipods are made in china though. The parts are all stock parts you'll find in any regular PC. Apple just put them together in the factory, load osx and then ship them.
Thats why I find it hilarious when people on this site especially turn their noses up at regular PC's saying they're full of cheap parts when in fact apples own stuff uses similar hardware.

Apple generally does a better job of choosing the parts that will be incorporated into a single machine. There's lots of little design choices which make a Mac easier to deal with generally. Of course, sometimes these design choices are less than ideal, such as the difficulty in extracting the HD from a MacBook Pro, for example.

There are good PCs and there are bad PCs, that's the difficulty in comparing a wide and deep market with Apple's smaller shallower pool.

[localoid]

If by "magic pixie dust" you mean 'passing strict review', then yes. ...

Apple should have used this "strict review" policy when making their choice for a Firewire chipset for the late-2007 MacBook Pros. Instead Apple used one that was incompatible (http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=6390) with the majority of Firewire audio interfaces on the market.

there is a new FW 800 chip on the market from Agere, which seems to be incompatible (not only) to RMEs FireWire audio, and requires workarounds for successful operation.

The reason Apple used this chip instead of the former TI solution is easy to find: half the price and a lot smaller. So it is not astonishing that this chip now also begins to show up on Windows computers. We got our hands on a PCIe FireWire 800 card from Unibrain using this chip, and found the exact (!) same problems under Windows as under Mac OS X using this card.

Our examination of the problem showed that the Agere chip causes the Firefaces to issue a FireWire bus reset shortly after start of data transmission (isochronous mode).

They didn't (make that "strict review") then, and apparently failed to do so again in late-2008 when they made use of the same chipset in the shiny new MacBook Pros.

[Eric S.]

when not so good times are coming people stop spending money on stuff that is not so important (like things for entertaining).

During hard times, diversion is one thing that people will still pay for. In the 1930s Depression, the entertainment industry soared.

[matticus008]

Apple should have used this "strict review" when making their choice for a Firewire chipset for the late-2007 MacBook Pros.
First, this review process refers to vertical review within a product, as the claim was that the "same" hardware was "cheaper" in other products. The issue is whether Apple used the top-rated units of the Agere chip (as rated and sold by Agere; buyers don't rate), and you are trying to force the question over to the selection among competing products. In other words, you're trying to claim that their selection of best-rated Intel chips was not applied because they should have selected AMD. One has nothing to do with the other.

You're not saying that Apple's stock of the Agere chips is below passing. You're claiming a design problem with all Agere chips, regardless of rating, and you're using the wrong argument to do so.

Second, who's to say which is faulty? It does not appear to have had a negative consequence on either Apple's or Lucent's sales, it is still on the market and being used by Apple and several PC manufacturers, and as your reference points out, it saves OEMs half the price. Is there any indication that it's not the audio devices that are noncompliant?

Edit: It seems to me on further reading that it's only audio products affected, only certain products, and only some users of those products, and that putting something in between the two on the bus solves the problem. If the chipset itself were defectively designed, one would think other classes of equipment would be affected, or at least that all audio equipment would be. Seems odd to blame Agere based on that.

[Amdahl]

WTF are you talking about? My 8 year old G4, that originally ran OS9, now runs OSX 10.4.11 and with all the security updates and latest iTunes? What more do you need?

When Snow Leopard ships, Apple policy is to stop issuing security updates for 10.4. They should be pushed to offer security updates for a five year period after they last sell 10.4 at retail. This would amount to about an addition 2 years of coverage, still far less than Microsoft delivers.

[Marx55]

Apple, get the message:

No Firewire and no ethernet, no purchase (MacBook Air).
No Firewire, no purchase (MacBook).
No Firewire, no purchase (Apple Displays).
Glossy displays, no purchase (Apple Displays & MacBooks)

New Apple legend:
Why do things right when they can be done wrong??!!

[akm3]

Apple, get the message:

No Firewire and no ethernet, no purchase (MacBook Air).
No Firewire, no purchase (MacBook).
No Firewire, no purchase (Apple Displays).
Matte displays, no purchase (Apple Displays & MacBooks)

New Apple legend:
Why do things right when they can be done wrong??!!

They seem happy to trade you as a customer for the 2.7 million Macs they sold last quarter. Go buy a Windows notebook with matte, ethernet and Firewire. Then you'll be happy right? You'll probably save money!

Or, is there more to what you want then those three specs?

[kingtj]

You "rest your case" with THAT argument? Fine, but in court, that'd be epic loss for your side.

Non-franchise restaurants don't work from a strict, known-efficient and known-profitable formula. Each one is UNIQUE. So obviously, they're going to have FAR higher failure rates overall, vs. one established, profitable fast food chain.

My whole point with that McDonalds analogy was merely to illustrate that just because their food sells very well doesn't make it "better food" than other, more expensive places offer. Dell and HP are companies I'd call the "McDonalds and Burger King of computers". They're great at mass producing product at as low a price as possible, and sure - they offer a large variety of little customizations (just like Burger King promises you can "Have it your way!" with their food). But just because you can "hold the onions" or ask for extra mustard and light ice in your soda doesn't mean you're going to escape their basic menu of burgers, a token fish sandwich, salads and a few chicken-based things. (Hmm... sort of like you can have several varieties of Windows Vista on your new Dell, but you can't get OS X at all.)

And these posts claiming Macs are a "ripoff" because they use the same Foxconn motherboards as cheaper generic PCs? Again, I just shake my head and say "Huh?" Every time I take an airline flight someplace, I see Apple notebooks outnumbering everything else by at LEAST 2 to 1. I see Macbooks all over on college campuses. Why? I *really* don't think it's just because all those people had no clue, and believed Justin Long on those TV ads. I think it's obvious to people who have owned the "other stuff" already; the Apple notebooks are superior products, all the way around!

My last Toshiba laptop had a phone and ethernet jack that flipped open when you pulled down these flimsy plastic "doors". Within months, the little hinges broke on them, making the ports unusable. My friend's Dell notebook went through a DVD-ROM drive pretty quickly when the tray assembly broke. I still have yet to see a competitor's notebook that offers anything as innovative as the mag-safe AC adapter plug concept, or the backlit keyboard the way Apple did it. The new Macbook Pro even rethought the Kensington lock concept - so it locks the access panel to the system RAM and hard drive when you use it. (With the others, it might keep a person from easily stealing the laptop itself, but they could steal the components out of it.)

My old Powerbook 17" was FAR thinner and lighter than ANYONE else's 17" notebook, when it came out, too.

A lot of people don't know (or really CARE) who makes the motherboard inside their computer. But the attention to the details is easier for people to see when they compare products.


Do some research - the failure rate for a non-franchise restaurant in the United States in 70% - the failure rate for a Mickie D's, 3%. I rest my case.

D

[ddTaylor]

This is utter nonsense. You might want to skip the insults and the emotional appeals, and stick to the facts. And what are the facts? The facts are that Apple has grown Mac shipments at ten times the rate of the Windows PC industry over the last couple of years. The facts are that they have done so with the current Mac product lineup. Does it seem even remotely plausible that this trend has completely reversed in one month? I don't care if you're a Nobel Laureate in economics, this doesn't make sense on its face.

It does - but you are way smarter than most so you just cannot see it. Apple had only UP to go or they would be out of business. They have a great product and a great marketing campaign - but that only goes so far when the cost is prohibitive with those you are competing. So what if they have done that with the current line-up? Are they continuing to do that now? NO - but the numbers lie, right? But again, your are more in tune with economics so I give-up.

Apple had 2% of the market - why? Terrible products and a high prices. They fixed the product line-up and with the new OS they cleaned-up. What happens when the market dries-up at your price-point - well, you know, being an economist and all - THEY BECOME STAGNANT!

Merry Christmas - D

[ddTaylor]

You "rest your case" with THAT argument? Fine, but in court, that'd be epic loss for your side.

Non-franchise restaurants don't work from a strict, known-efficient and known-profitable formula. Each one is UNIQUE. So obviously, they're going to have FAR higher failure rates overall, vs. one established, profitable fast food chain.

My whole point with that McDonalds analogy was merely to illustrate that just because their food sells very well doesn't make it "better food" than other, more expensive places offer. Dell and HP are companies I'd call the "McDonalds and Burger King of computers". They're great at mass producing product at as low a price as possible, and sure - they offer a large variety of little customizations (just like Burger King promises you can "Have it your way!" with their food). But just because you can "hold the onions" or ask for extra mustard and light ice in your soda doesn't mean you're going to escape their basic menu of burgers, a token fish sandwich, salads and a few chicken-based things. (Hmm... sort of like you can have several varieties of Windows Vista on your new Dell, but you can't get OS X at all.)

And these posts claiming Macs are a "ripoff" because they use the same Foxconn motherboards as cheaper generic PCs? Again, I just shake my head and say "Huh?" Every time I take an airline flight someplace, I see Apple notebooks outnumbering everything else by at LEAST 2 to 1. I see Macbooks all over on college campuses. Why? I *really* don't think it's just because all those people had no clue, and believed Justin Long on those TV ads. I think it's obvious to people who have owned the "other stuff" already; the Apple notebooks are superior products, all the way around!

My last Toshiba laptop had a phone and ethernet jack that flipped open when you pulled down these flimsy plastic "doors". Within months, the little hinges broke on them, making the ports unusable. My friend's Dell notebook went through a DVD-ROM drive pretty quickly when the tray assembly broke. I still have yet to see a competitor's notebook that offers anything as innovative as the mag-safe AC adapter plug concept, or the backlit keyboard the way Apple did it. The new Macbook Pro even rethought the Kensington lock concept - so it locks the access panel to the system RAM and hard drive when you use it. (With the others, it might keep a person from easily stealing the laptop itself, but they could steal the components out of it.)

My old Powerbook 17" was FAR thinner and lighter than ANYONE else's 17" notebook, when it came out, too.

A lot of people don't know (or really CARE) who makes the motherboard inside their computer. But the attention to the details is easier for people to see when they compare products.

Wow - I cannot believe people on this forum! Did you not see the IRONY and HUMOR my post? I was making the point of how silly the comparison to Mickie D's was! Come-on people - get over yourselves! UNBELIEVABLE!

D

[ddTaylor]

You "rest your case" with THAT argument? Fine, but in court, that'd be epic loss for your side.

Non-franchise restaurants don't work from a strict, known-efficient and known-profitable formula. Each one is UNIQUE. So obviously, they're going to have FAR higher failure rates overall, vs. one established, profitable fast food chain.

My whole point with that McDonalds analogy was merely to illustrate that just because their food sells very well doesn't make it "better food" than other, more expensive places offer. Dell and HP are companies I'd call the "McDonalds and Burger King of computers". They're great at mass producing product at as low a price as possible, and sure - they offer a large variety of little customizations (just like Burger King promises you can "Have it your way!" with their food). But just because you can "hold the onions" or ask for extra mustard and light ice in your soda doesn't mean you're going to escape their basic menu of burgers, a token fish sandwich, salads and a few chicken-based things. (Hmm... sort of like you can have several varieties of Windows Vista on your new Dell, but you can't get OS X at all.)

And these posts claiming Macs are a "ripoff" because they use the same Foxconn motherboards as cheaper generic PCs? Again, I just shake my head and say "Huh?" Every time I take an airline flight someplace, I see Apple notebooks outnumbering everything else by at LEAST 2 to 1. I see Macbooks all over on college campuses. Why? I *really* don't think it's just because all those people had no clue, and believed Justin Long on those TV ads. I think it's obvious to people who have owned the "other stuff" already; the Apple notebooks are superior products, all the way around!

My last Toshiba laptop had a phone and ethernet jack that flipped open when you pulled down these flimsy plastic "doors". Within months, the little hinges broke on them, making the ports unusable. My friend's Dell notebook went through a DVD-ROM drive pretty quickly when the tray assembly broke. I still have yet to see a competitor's notebook that offers anything as innovative as the mag-safe AC adapter plug concept, or the backlit keyboard the way Apple did it. The new Macbook Pro even rethought the Kensington lock concept - so it locks the access panel to the system RAM and hard drive when you use it. (With the others, it might keep a person from easily stealing the laptop itself, but they could steal the components out of it.)

My old Powerbook 17" was FAR thinner and lighter than ANYONE else's 17" notebook, when it came out, too.

A lot of people don't know (or really CARE) who makes the motherboard inside their computer. But the attention to the details is easier for people to see when they compare products.

So if you see the Apple outnumber anything else by 2:1 why isn't apple up by a 2:1 margin, based on your quantitative data? Please.

D

[therealdt]

:D

oh! the drama

[ddTaylor]

Why would they want to? (Edit: capture the low end, not offer a decent mini)

You are kidding, right? If that market is there to be tapped and money to be made and it does not pull from your premium products (and why would it) you would need to be a special kind of silly for not exploring that.

A refreshed course in econ 101 might be called for. Just a thought :). If you study the history of economics you will see that I DO have 400+ years of history backing-up my arguments - but so some that just does not matter.

D

[Buachaill Dana]

Dell and HP are companies I'd call the "McDonalds and Burger King of computers". They're great at mass producing product at as low a price as possible.

As are Apple.

And these posts claiming Macs are a "ripoff" because they use the same Foxconn motherboards as cheaper generic PCs? Again, I just shake my head and say "Huh?" Every time I take an airline flight someplace, I see Apple notebooks outnumbering everything else by at LEAST 2 to 1. I see Macbooks all over on college campuses. Why? I *really* don't think it's just because all those people had no clue, and believed Justin Long on those TV ads. I think it's obvious to people who have owned the "other stuff" already; the Apple notebooks are superior products, all the way around!

Anecdotal evidence tbh.



My old Powerbook 17" was FAR thinner and lighter than ANYONE else's 17" notebook, when it came out, too.

So?? Tbh, if a little weight difference is that important, you need to get out more.

[tonyl]

Apple, get the message:

No Firewire and no ethernet, no purchase (MacBook Air).
No Firewire, no purchase (MacBook).
No Firewire, no purchase (Apple Displays).
Glossy displays, no purchase (Apple Displays & MacBooks)

New Apple legend:
Why do things right when they can be done wrong??!!

Not everyone needs firewire, but it is really handy if you need it.

[tonyl]

Come on Apple, release a Mac Pro Mini, the desktop sales will sure go up!

[matticus008]

It does - but you are way smarter than most so you just cannot see it. Apple had only UP to go or they would be out of business. They have a great product and a great marketing campaign - but that only goes so far when the cost is prohibitive with those you are competing. So what if they have done that with the current line-up? Are they continuing to do that now? NO - but the numbers lie, right? But again, your are more in tune with economics so I give-up.

Apple had 2% of the market - why? Terrible products and a high prices. They fixed the product line-up and with the new OS they cleaned-up. What happens when the market dries-up at your price-point - well, you know, being an economist and all - THEY BECOME STAGNANT!

Merry Christmas - D
Huh?

They are continuing to do that now. Even with one stagnant month and regardless of the December data, 2008 will see a net increase of over 30% from 2007 units. Numbers don't lie, but you have to look at them and know what you're seeing.

There is zero chance that you are an economist based on the above post. The entire market has flattened. This doesn't affect Apple's relative standing unless the entire market surges and Apple remains flat.
You are kidding, right? If that market is there to be tapped and money to be made and it does not pull from your premium products (and why would it) you would need to be a special kind of silly for not exploring that.
It's called sustainability and competition. Again, your univariate analysis leaves much to be desired. Apple has nothing to gain by engaging competitors in a race to the bottom.
If you study the history of economics you will see that I DO have 400+ years of history backing-up my arguments
Cite it. So far you've demonstrated an utter failure to follow even the simplified charts of a journalist's article, let alone being able to separate market performance from an individual firm's performance. Hint: your reliance on macroeconomics is wholly mistaken. If you want to support your argument, you're looking for microeconomics.

[andiwm2003]

Apple, get the message:

No Firewire and no ethernet, no purchase (MacBook Air).
No Firewire, no purchase (MacBook).
No Firewire, no purchase (Apple Displays).
Glossy displays, no purchase (Apple Displays & MacBooks)

New Apple legend:
Why do things right when they can be done wrong??!!

as much as i like apple this is so true. i don't like the direction apple is going with the notebooks right now so i didn't buy one.

i might buy a MB for my GF soon but that will be paid by work. and even then i think about delaying it as long as possible.

i think apple has to improve on many things here: features like ports, screen quality (in the MB).....

[localoid]

..
Edit: It seems to me on further reading that it's only audio products affected, only certain products, and only some users of those products, and that putting something in between the two on the bus solves the problem. If the chipset itself were defectively designed, one would think other classes of equipment would be affected, or at least that all audio equipment would be. Seems odd to blame Agere based on that.

(Sigh) Yes. It's an audio problem. And most people outside the audio world can't understand why that's a problem. But yes. It's a very real problem for anyone that needs a notebook to produce/record audio. For some strange reason audio people want a notebook that's actually able to record audio. Go figure.

The Lucent/Agere chipset has proven to be problematic with most of the Firewire audio interfaces on the market. Good luck to anyone trying to out specifically what interface will or won't work, since Apple hasn't publicly addressed the issue. The TI chipsets that Apple used to use "just worked". But they cost twice as much and are slightly larger, so for the sake of a few dollars and "thinness" Apple doesn't use them anymore.

Who in their right mind would buy a MacBook Pro that has a high likelihood of not functioning 100% with most Firewire audio interfaces?

[matticus008]

(Sigh) Yes. It's an audio problem.
(Sigh) So maybe you should be asking why audio equipment manufacturers don't get their act together.

Some devices work, and some users of affected devices have no problems. Again, this suggests it's the audio devices that are problematic, since the problem is not universal in all audio products or all users of affected products. This kind of hardware has always come with "recommended chipsets" unlike most other 1394 devices, which suggests that they're the ones limiting compatibility.
The Lucent/Agere chipset has proven to be problematic with most of the Firewire audio interfaces on the market. Good luck to anyone trying to out specifically what interface will or won't work, since Apple hasn't publicly addressed the issue.
What exactly should Apple do about a compatibility problem between Agere and audio equipment manufacturers? Perhaps you should ask the audio equipment makers to fix their products or provide evidence that it's not their products that are out of spec and explain why the audio device controllers can't keep the bus alive when mass storage and video controllers can.
so for the sake of a few dollars and "thinness" Apple doesn't use them anymore.
Thinness has nothing to do with it. The chipsets are smaller (LxW), not thinner.

[xbjllb]

And cutting edge is two hyphenated words to content creators: BLU-RAY. Playing, editing, and authoring.

It's way beyond time. A year past time. At least. The Apple of five years ago would have done it the middle of last year as soon as the war was over.

Or become the "Lloyd's" of the new millenium (one of the top transistor radio manufacturers in the 60's, long since defunct.)

iCrap can only get you by for so long. Now you have to service folks who have money: Content creators. Content creators who have to deliver that content with BLU-RAY.

And not so long between updates on the high-ticket items! People with money read this website and the "When To Buy" list!

:apple:

[twoodcc]

not good news. hopefully apple will do something at macworld to turn this around, like update all three desktops, including a total redesign of the mac mini

[localoid]

(Sigh) So maybe you should be asking why audio equipment manufacturers don't get their act together.

Some devices work, and some users of affected devices have no problems. Again, this suggests it's the audio devices that are problematic, since the problem is not universal in all audio products or all users of affected products. This kind of hardware has always come with "recommended chipsets" unlike most other 1394 devices, which suggests that they're the ones limiting compatibility.

What exactly should Apple do about a compatibility problem between Agere and audio equipment manufacturers? Perhaps you should ask the audio equipment makers to fix their products or provide evidence that it's not their products that are out of spec and explain why the audio device controllers can't keep the bus alive when mass storage and video controllers can.

Thinness has nothing to do with it. The chipsets are smaller (LxW), not thinner.

This (Firewire chipset) problem has been around for over a year and yet the geniuses at Apple haven't figured out the simple solution -- use the TI chipset, the one that's known throughout the audio world as the chipset that works with most audio devices.

This isn't a new sort of problem for audio. Back when USB(1) came out this same sort of problem reared its ugly head with most of the USB chipsets that wouldn't work (100%) with the new USB audio interfaces just hitting the market. You could buy most Intel machine and it would work fine, but anything else probably wouldn't because they were using USB chipsets from other manufacturers.

But yes. All the people who who've never done anything in audio always want to place the blame on something or someone else (other than the computer or chipset manufacturer) and they always express their amazement that a hard drive can copy files fine but a audio device can't work in real time. Virtually all of the audio manufacturers have written FAQs on the subject, yet many manufacturers have ignored their findings. Most (all?) PC manufactures (Apple included) no absolutely nothing about producing quality audio devices, and yet many people automatically believe that the fault of any given problem is that of the audio manufacturers.

This is a perfect example of the sorts of problems that can occur that rarely get solved because the self proclaimed "experts" aren't willing to listen to the people who've been using (or manufacturing) the equipment for decades. Instead, these experts simply talk about their theories of who's fault it is (or isn't) with the hopes that problem might magically go away.

[gwangung]

Based on this quote from the Wall Street Journal Article, it isn't a myth: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122938758242108907.html

"Despite short-term weakness, analysts expect Apple's products to remain more profitable than many rivals' computers. The MacBooks are forecast to deliver close to 20% profit margins, compared with 6% or less for competitors, said Toni Sacconaghi, an analyst at Sanford Bernstein & Co."

That's triple or better profit margins compared to competitors...

Myth.

You know what the margin is for manufacturing companies? 30-35%. And that's to stay above water. People seem to have this idea that PC makers are immune to the same economic forces that other manufacturing industries have to follow---but that's not true. If you want to hang around, you're generally going to have to have margins in the 25-35% area. You MIGHT be able to cut into it with volume and cash...but you're playing with the company's life that way and you have much lower margin for error--and that's a recipie for company disaster.

High margins for Apple? Hmph. I think the magic pixie dust isn't where you think it is...


Computer folks don't know this and they complain about "high" margins, when business wise, it's what a company NEEDS TO SURVIVE.

[IJ Reilly]

It does - but you are way smarter than most so you just cannot see it. Apple had only UP to go or they would be out of business. They have a great product and a great marketing campaign - but that only goes so far when the cost is prohibitive with those you are competing. So what if they have done that with the current line-up? Are they continuing to do that now? NO - but the numbers lie, right? But again, your are more in tune with economics so I give-up.

Apple had 2% of the market - why? Terrible products and a high prices. They fixed the product line-up and with the new OS they cleaned-up. What happens when the market dries-up at your price-point - well, you know, being an economist and all - THEY BECOME STAGNANT!

Merry Christmas - D

This makes no sense at all. But you have managed to completely avoid addressing any of my comments, so congrats on that.

[gr81mgbgt]

This makes no sense at all. But you have managed to completely avoid addressing any of my comments, so congrats on that.

haha.........

[matticus008]

This (Firewire chipset) problem has been around for over a year and yet the geniuses at Apple haven't figured out the simple solution -- use the TI chipset, the one that's known throughout the audio world as the chipset that works with most audio devices.
That's putting the horse before the cart, though. The TI chipset's other disadvantages are obviously not worth it on balance, or it would have been selected by everyone. The problem of intermittently not working with audio hardware, particularly when the workaround is so simple, is not compelling and not their problem if the audio manufacturers can't implement hardware that is fully compliant. Frustrating, yes, but as you say, these are not new problems with real-time audio (yet real-time video hardware has largely managed to figure it out).
But yes. All the people who who've never done anything in audio always want to place the blame on something or someone else (other than the computer or chipset manufacturer) and they always express their amazement that a hard drive can copy files fine but a audio device can't work in real time.
Again, the problem isn't with real-time data transfers, because video and other dedicated data transfer hardware works fine. The problem is in audio hardware manufacturers refusing to deal with the known limitations and design around them. As far as 1394 is concerned on the destination peer end, it's real-time data and it works perfectly fine. If audio is the problem, then the audio devices are the problem.

The question is why certain chipsets work with certain audio controllers, and the reason is simple: because the audio people design to the chipset, rather than to the standard (because it is cheaper and easier), and then post FAQs about which chipset you should use with that particular device. That's perfectly valid, but you can't then blame other companies when they elect not to use that chipset, because their decision is equally valid.
This is a perfect example of the sorts of problems that can occur that rarely get solved because the self proclaimed "experts" aren't willing to listen to the people who've been using (or manufacturing) the equipment for decades.
The audio manufacturers have an opportunity to participate in the engineering of the standard. They have an opportunity to create their own standard interface. They have the opportunity to design around the problem.

This particular incompatibility is not inherent to audio transfers; data is data on the 1394 bus. It's solely about Firewire implementation, and "audio people" have the power to solve it. Again, it's as trivial as putting another FW device in between the two, so it's not some critical performance issue that the audio manufacturers can't deal with. And once again, I see no evidence that suggests that the Agere chipset is materially defective or not compliant with the standard.

You continually suggest that it is not the audio manufacturer's fault, when all signs indicate it is more likely that it is. I do a great deal of work with standards bodies and parties accusing each other of implementation failures, and your story simply doesn't add up. The compatibility issues are indeed well-known, but it's the audio industry that seems unwilling to do anything about it. I have yet to see a plausible explanation for why real-time audio is plagued at a much greater rate than real-time video that implicates Firewire hardware itself as the culprit.

[Elliott]

This is great news. Apple needs to be brought down to earth. Their laptop sales will start to fall off soon. There prices are just so far off any more.

I think the new MacBook are nice except they offer too little of what people really want. Who needs a milled aluminum case! People will not go green if cost more, sorry that is the truth! It does not have the connectivity of much less expensive laptops. The Mac mini is at least $100 dollars over priced.

With all there success lately Apple think it can do whatever it what and I hope this sobers them.

[VoR]

The question is why certain chipsets work with certain audio controllers, and the reason is simple: because the audio people design to the chipset, rather than to the standard (because it is cheaper and easier), and then post FAQs about which chipset you should use with that particular device.

hmm, does the thought ever occur to you that big companies that employ tonnes of highly skilled guys can be incredibly incompetent and get things wrong?
They're also pretty likely to make decisions based on nothing but saving a couple of cents and who treats them to the biggest nights out.

[Bubba Satori]

Lowering prices is not the answer.

It is for consumers. :rolleyes:

[robanga]

This is great news. Apple needs to be brought down to earth. Their laptop sales will start to fall off soon. There prices are just so far off any more.

I think the new MacBook are nice except they offer too little of what people really want. Who needs a milled aluminum case! People will not go green if cost more, sorry that is the truth! It does not have the connectivity of much less expensive laptops. The Mac mini is at least $100 dollars over priced.

With all there success lately Apple think it can do whatever it what and I hope this sobers them.

Pretty much the entire world is being sobered at the moment...Watch the news :) ( or surf the news etc.)

[matticus008]

hmm, does the thought ever occur to you that big companies that employ tonnes of highly skilled guys can be incredibly incompetent and get things wrong?
All the time. But the question is, is there a big company here that's gotten something wrong? And if so, which one?

If it's the computer-side chipset maker, then you would expect the bus reset problem to affect other types of 1394 devices, other types of isochronous mode devices, or at the very least, all real-time audio devices. You would further expect that the offending product would be quietly pulled or replaced, or that computer companies would purchase from other vendors, reducing sales, rather than the continued strong sales that Agere seems to enjoy.

The problem instead is that the audio device 1394 controller triggers a bus reset when communicating in isochronous mode on some units of some models of audio devices. Now, the computer side 1394 controller in essence doesn't know that it's receiving audio (just data that it passes along), so it would be very difficult, bordering on impossible, for the computer side to have an audio-only bug on the bus. The place to look, absent any other information, is the manufacturer of the audio device's 1394 controller, or to the audio interface feeding data into it. It's also possible that both sides are compliant, and this is just one of those "what are the chances" things (like when your neighbor's garage door remote opens your door). What seems unlikely based on the given information, though, is that there is some special problem with Agere chips that affects only audio devices and nothing else in isochronous mode.

[PCFan]

Can't wait for Windows 7 to crush Macs. :p
I'm kidding guys, don't flame me. ;)

[Squozen]

I blame the glossy screens and focusing on consumers rather than Apple's established professional base.

...or maybe that's just my sour grapes because Apple no longer make a laptop or consumer desktop that I would want to buy.

[MagnusVonMagnum]

In November, Mac desktop sales were down 38 percent while Windows desktops fell only 15 percent.

Could this possibly be because Apple's desktops are unexpandable and use laptop parts for poor performance? Maybe if they had the same expandable towers with high performance parts that Windows users have access to at reasonable prices they wouldn't be losing all that desktop ground.... No no. That can't be it! Steve knows best!

[xrayzed]

Dumbest quote I've read here in a long time. Go back to your koolaid man.

No one is waiting on Snow Leopard and probably not even for new iMacs either.
I am.

If the iMac receives a decent upgrade next month and isn't stupidly priced I'll buy one. If not I'll be waiting till Snow Leopard. And I might not buy then either...

In next year's bad economy, people are going to be looking for value and something not just disposable in a couple years. And Apple is going to take a serious beating for their arrogance.
True, which is why I may defer upgrading in 2009. While I'm prepared to pay a premium I have my limits.

Unfortunately Vista is such a dud of an OS that upgrading my desktop with another PC isn't a particularly attractive alternative. Keeping my creaking XP box & iBook going one more year is an option.

[localoid]

...
The audio manufacturers have an opportunity to participate in the engineering of the standard. They have an opportunity to create their own standard interface. They have the opportunity to design around the problem.
...


Right. You just learn of this problem today and then spend 60 seconds reading one source of information on a subject that's been tossed around online in great depth for over a year now and you immediately come to the conclusion that the problem is caused by the audio manufacturers.

Can you cite even one credible online source that's reached the same conclusion as you have?

[Eraserhead]

Can't wait for Windows 7 to crush Macs. :p
I'm kidding guys, don't flame me. ;)

Maybe it will,　it`ll be interesting to see anyhow.

The article　is missing that the Windows OEM market only grew a very small amount as well due to them having approximately equal sales of laptops and desktops (though laptops are probably slightly more popular).

So although Apples growth has been neutered completely it hasn`t done much worse than the market.

[xbjllb]

This thread is full of the usual rations of baloney from armchair CEOs.

Even if these forecasts turn out to be accurate (which I personally doubt)...

And full of the usual rations of baloney from armchair fanboi PR flacks too, I see.

Reality: These are forecasts, and for only one month.

Reality: Apple has been growing their Mac shipments at ten time the rate of the Windows PC industry for the last couple of years.

Reality: This growth rate occurred on the basis of the current Mac product lineup.

Conclusion: The idea that Apple must completely revamp its approach to selling Macs is not based on reality.

Just how much Apple stock DO you own?

:apple:

[Henri Gaudier]

And you'll need all five. One to use and four to cannibalize for parts.

I don't think so. Apple's build quality is widely agreed to be getting worse and even in the good old days I had an iBook that was always kaput... I got it replaced under the iBook board scheme and it's replacement went belly up one week out of it's warranty. That was 3000€/£2000/$4000 for two years of ownership.

[johnmcboston]

Flat sales in a tanking economy where sales everywhere else are plummeting? That's excellent news, no?

[BenRoethig]

Could this possibly be because Apple's desktops are unexpandable and use laptop parts for poor performance? Maybe if they had the same expandable towers with high performance parts that Windows users have access to at reasonable prices they wouldn't be losing all that desktop ground.... No no. That can't be it! Steve knows best!

I wouldn't call it poor performance. I'd put it a bit higher at slightly above mediocre. For the lower to middle end consumer (aka "Best Buy") market, The two 20" inchers and the entry level 24" serve their needs pretty well. The problem is Apple's insistence to push them on those with higher needs

[wolfpackfan]

It is for consumers. :rolleyes:

Exactly. I have been wanting to get a Mac for a long time now, but I just refuse to pay Apple's ridiculous prices. Yesterday, I went out and bought an HP with 3GB memory, 350 GB hard drive, Intel Dual Core processor, 19" wide screen monitor and a HP printer for $599. You can make all the jokes you want about Microsoft and Vista, but the fact is for the average user like me it works just fine. Maybe someday when Apple wakes up and realizes that there are only so many people in this world that can afford their high prices they will drop them and start selling more units.

[OllyW]

Just how much Apple stock DO you own?

Quite a lot (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=6324827&postcount=156), by the look of it. :eek:

[Philter]

What brand do you buy now?

I build my own. Built 2 computers since the summer, one music production tower and the other an HTPC for the living room. For both systems Apple did not offer an appropriate system at a competitive price, and for the HTPC they really don't offer anything. That MacTV thing is a sad joke compared to what you can do with a standard Vista install.

Each system cost less than half of what a Mac with similar specs would have cost, and the horror stories about other operating systems ended up being overblown and mostly untrue- I did prefer OSX to the alternatives, but in practice I found that the difference in convenience did not come close to justifying the price premium. Vista has turned out to be a wonderful surprise for an HTPC system, completely contrary to everything I expected.

I do give Apple credit for upping the ante and forcing Microsoft to improve their products. But I was a rabid Mac fan from 1994 till 2008, and they have completely dropped the ball as far as I am concerned.

[Me too]

Flat sales in a tanking economy where sales everywhere else are plummeting? That's excellent news, no?

That is very good news indeed, no layoffs no part time and still good service, even sweet deals. The force producing the macs abroad is not getting cheaper either, they are healthy suppliers of a healthy system.
I think that Apple is going to take the presidential inauguration as a platform to introduce change, a computer system. At least thats what i would do if I were an Apple: i'd plant Apple trees of change in millions and millions of willing brains around the world. Harvesting their business will be a pleasure.

[mutantteenager]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/12/16/apple-mac-sales-flat-in-november/)
The Mac mini is particularly outdated with the last update delivered over 16 months ago.

This is proof that Apple operate in a complete vacuum. What kind of b*lls**t computer manufacturer thinks they can sell the SAME product for 16 months at the SAME price?!

I got bored of waiting for a new Mac Pro and made myself one instead - and yes it works perfectly. I didn't shed one tear that it didn't have a shiny metal box with a logo on, because I needed it at the time and Apple were dragging their feet.

Apple deserve to lose business refreshing their products 'whenever' they feel like it. That same arrogance allowed Quark to be trashed by Indesign (price vs performance/features).

I trust the zealots will comeback with some twisted logic to vindicate Apple, however a more productive use of their time might be to join the Church of Scientology.

[IJ Reilly]

I can think of a more productive use of your time than posting here.

[matticus008]

Right. You just learn of this problem today
Says who? I haven't cared to research specifics in the past because it hasn't affected me personally or professionally. Tracking down the source of this alleged "bug" isn't difficult, and again, that information paints a picture. Bus resets have nothing to do with audio per se, but simply with data negotiation. This is your first clue.

I do have a lengthy track record of dealing with standards bodies and implementation disputes, and it has been influential in discussions on this forum and others. On the other hand, you have submitted nothing to suggest a contrary interpretation. You have also egregiously misinterpreted industry rating systems and displayed a basic unfamiliarity with internal procedures.
then spend 60 seconds reading one source of information
Again, says who?
on a subject that's been tossed around online in great depth for over a year now and you immediately come to the conclusion that the problem is caused by the audio manufacturers.
That's not the conclusion I drew at all. All I am saying is that there is no evidence that the Agere chipset is faulty, and that audio interfaces have a long history of compatibility problems with various 1394 controllers, because they have always implemented based on a reference design rather than the standard.

Consider what is more likely: a bug in a general controller with an otherwise unblemished track record or a bug in a specialized controller? Now, look at the nature of the bug. Does it affect all devices, all devices using the same connection, or even all units of an affected device? If the problem can't be reproduced in other types of controllers or even in other models of the same type, the defect, if there is a defect at all and not just a benign incompatibility, is probably in the specialized controller.

And for your information, the specialized 1394 controllers in question (along with some of the audio interface hardware) are made by many of the same companies as the computer chipsets--so don't even try to accuse me of selecting a side in this ridiculous little battle of yours.
Can you cite even one credible online source that's reached the same conclusion as you have?
Can you cite one credible source implicating Agere based on theory other than "it worked before, so it must be the computer chipset?" I have not yet encountered a credible source making a conclusion of any sort, nor have any alleged an Agere fault as you have. The lack of a detailed inquiry is telling. Why you are so convinced, absent any evidence at all and despite all contrary indications, that it's not the fault of the audio 1394 controller or audio interface, is a complete mystery.

You can find compatibility problem reports for every Firewire chipset manufacturer, including TI, with audio interfaces. In some cases, there are physical errors, such as voltage mismatches. However, and please read the following carefully, because you have continually ignored it: an audio controller sometimes triggering a bus reset in some products using that controller, but no other controllers causing that problem, does not point to a computer chipset problem unless you have other information.

As I have repeatedly requested, if you have any evidence, any at all, please share it. So far all I've received from you is a failure to read and understand.

[mutantteenager]

I can think of a more productive use of your time than posting here.

Touche:)

[DaBrain]

No surprise here! Apple removes hardware options from the current line up. They limit choice to Glossy screens only (fine if you like glossy but for the approximately 50% that don't, not good). They completely ignore the mac-mini.

Apple needs better competitive pricing on some of their line ups!

Example: Just recently for the first time in a longggggg time I found a mac-mini in the refurb store for $699! That's just insane!

I was going to buy one for a xmass present IF they updated it! But, Nope didn't happen!

To me this is no surprise! Hopefully things change soon!

Just found 2 Mac Mini-s in the refurb section. Here's one of them:

Refurbished Mac mini 2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
Refurbished Mac mini 2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo

1GB memory
120GB hard drive
SuperDrive (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Intel GMA 950 graphics processor with 64MB of DDR2 memory

$679.00

Save $120.00
15% off


Apple needs to get real here! I love their products, but prices like this for 2 year old technology is Crazy!!!! This should be selling for $500 tops?!

[xbjllb]

I can think of a more productive use of your time than posting here.

...like obviously and in futility trying to hype Apple crashing stock, appparently.

:apple:

[CrackedButter]

@matticus008, I'm glad you posted what you have regarding the TI and Agere chipsets. I don't know much about such things and took people for their word when they were outlining the difference between the 2. I caught your post by accident and I'm glad I have, made me think.

[azaas]

As a student studying economics i can say that this is good news....Given the recession in the states,the lack of stability and the fear of consumers and investors to spend money -recession periods translate in a tendency to save money from private investors and consumers and a tendency from the State and the Global Organizations to spend money on several fields of the economic system- a company shows dropped sales of a combined 1%. So in a country where car companies literally beg for 14 bil $,where the biggest state is almost bankrupt and where the number of unemployed people raises daily in amazing rates there's a company that suffered just 1% sales dropped,which came mainly from desktops comps some of which haven't even been updated for the last year and a half...

Wall Street almost got out of job yet Apple's sales dropped 1%...

Seriously no worries there ^^ hehe

[akm3]

Exactly. I have been wanting to get a Mac for a long time now, but I just refuse to pay Apple's ridiculous prices. Yesterday, I went out and bought an HP with 3GB memory, 350 GB hard drive, Intel Dual Core processor, 19" wide screen monitor and a HP printer for $599. You can make all the jokes you want about Microsoft and Vista, but the fact is for the average user like me it works just fine. Maybe someday when Apple wakes up and realizes that there are only so many people in this world that can afford their high prices they will drop them and start selling more units.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of car do you drive?

This argument is like saying Mercedes should have a car priced to compete with Kia. Would Mercedes rather sell 1,000 cars for $100 profit each or 10 cars for $10,000 profit each?

Keep in mind, the high end customer who don't mind paying 'more for less' with Mercedes, probably wouldn't stay with the brand if they also had a cheaply made, very common crappy car in the line-up. Ultimately, Mercedes would end up losing because to compete with Kia at the low end, you have to BECOME Kia at the low end.

The strategy of targeting affluent, high-disposable income consumers who want a premium, aspiration product with a high barrier to entry has put $25,000,000,000 cash in the bank for Apple. I think it's working. Same with iPod. Sansa Fuze does everything it does (technically), but you pay more for a more premium experience and being in the (not so exclusive) 'club'.

[hulugu]

...Maybe someday when Apple wakes up and realizes that there are only so many people in this world that can afford their high prices they will drop them and start selling more units.

Well, there's a balance in there for Apple. It reminds me of the old joke, "we're selling them for less than we paid for them, but we make it up on volume."

At some point, Apple remains profitable and thus can spend oodles of money on R&D if it allows for enough of a margin. Now, we can argue about what's an appropriate margin, but we have to allow for that.
One of Dell's biggest problems has been in the rush for the bottom, they've created a margin so thin that any small change can have serious consequences. This is part of the reason they've tried to compete against the iPod, purchased Alienware, and push their higher-margin servers and network storage devices.

[robanga]

Well, there's a balance in there for Apple. It reminds me of the old joke, "we're selling them for less than we paid for them, but we make it up on volume."

At some point, Apple remains profitable and thus can spend oodles of money on R&D if it allows for enough of a margin. Now, we can argue about what's an appropriate margin, but we have to allow for that.
One of Dell's biggest problems has been in the rush for the bottom, they've created a margin so thin that any small change can have serious consequences. This is part of the reason they've tried to compete against the iPod, purchased Alienware, and push their higher-margin servers and network storage devices.

Well said, I don't care how cheap your operating costs are or how many engineers you employ in places like India at a lower wage, there is a floor to the business model. Profit is a good thing, and Apple has done a very good job in maintaining higher margins in a sea of competitors fighting it out at the bottom.

[archipellago]

Exactly. I have been wanting to get a Mac for a long time now, but I just refuse to pay Apple's ridiculous prices. Yesterday, I went out and bought an HP with 3GB memory, 350 GB hard drive, Intel Dual Core processor, 19" wide screen monitor and a HP printer for $599. You can make all the jokes you want about Microsoft and Vista, but the fact is for the average user like me it works just fine. Maybe someday when Apple wakes up and realizes that there are only so many people in this world that can afford their high prices they will drop them and start selling more units.

with those specs Vista will run fine, as good as Leopard even :eek::eek:

welcome back!

[pubwvj]

Exactly. I have been wanting to get a Mac for a long time now, but I just refuse to pay Apple's ridiculous prices. Yesterday, I went out and bought an HP with 3GB memory, 350 GB hard drive, Intel Dual Core processor, 19" wide screen monitor and a HP printer for $599. You can make all the jokes you want about Microsoft and Vista, but the fact is for the average user like me it works just fine. Maybe someday when Apple wakes up and realizes that there are only so many people in this world that can afford their high prices they will drop them and start selling more units.

I hear paper and pencil work just as well and only cost $3.99.

[therealdt]

Exactly. I have been wanting to get a Mac for a long time now, but I just refuse to pay Apple's ridiculous prices. Yesterday, I went out and bought an HP with 3GB memory, 350 GB hard drive, Intel Dual Core processor, 19" wide screen monitor and a HP printer for $599. You can make all the jokes you want about Microsoft and Vista, but the fact is for the average user like me it works just fine. Maybe someday when Apple wakes up and realizes that there are only so many people in this world that can afford their high prices they will drop them and start selling more units.

Apple is doing just fine. They know their 'market' is and don't plan on doing otherwise.

I'm on a Dell now, I wanted a Mac for sometime now, I paid out 9 and some change. Why? This is what I wanted, Macs to me are worth that extra 300 bucks. This will be my last time I'll use a PC for personal reasons. (it's a Xmas present and must wait...:()

Apple is in the black, they don't have to sell their laptops at 500 bucks. I'm not a fanboy, just saying Apple is not hurting for cash.

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of car do you drive?

This argument is like saying Mercedes should have a car priced to compete with Kia. Would Mercedes rather sell 1,000 cars for $100 profit each or 10 cars for $10,000 profit each?

If you're comparing a Mac Mini to a Mercedes you need some serious help, IMO.

[kdarling]

The strategy of targeting affluent, high-disposable income consumers who want a premium, aspiration product with a high barrier to entry has put $25,000,000,000 cash in the bank for Apple.

Yes. Too bad the "premium" products obviously didn't include materials worth the price. If they did, Apple wouldn't have so much cash.

At some point, Apple remains profitable and thus can spend oodles of money on R&D if it allows for enough of a margin.

If only they did spend on R&D.

Apple spends what? About 1/5 the R&D percentage of other major computer corporation? Just imagine if they actually spent some of that extra cash on more engineers and designers.

[4armshiver]

What Apple has done in the past is just give you more bang for your buck. I don't see them drastically dropping their prices. Updating their products in their mind is the same as dropping their prices. But the question is will this continue to appeal to the casual computer user, which are the customers they should be fighting their competitors for.

[4armshiver]

If you're comparing a Mac Mini to a Mercedes you need some serious help, IMO.



This is just a exaggerated comparison, but I get the point he is trying to make.

[akm3]

If you're comparing a Mac Mini to a Mercedes you need some serious help, IMO.

I'm comparing 'Apple' to Mercedes. Not Mac Mini.

And 'serious help'? Really? Wow.

[Eraserhead]

...like obviously and in futility trying to hype Apple crashing stock, appparently.

:apple:

He bought so long ago that he's still made a profit. And every other stock has done badly too. Anyhow bows a great time to buy more Apple stock.

If you're comparing a Mac Mini to a Mercedes you need some serious help, IMO.

I've compared them to Tiffany too in the past. He's completely reasonable to compare to other luxury goods manufacturers. If Apple wanted to compete more widely they'd licence their OS.

PS the only recent shifty apple machines were the first Intels.

[dwl017]

Currently I have a 2.66 Ghz Quad Mac Pro, introduced first in 2006. I bought it in 2007.

I've had it for a year and a half but the model is two years old and honestly it's plenty fast for what I do, and with Snow Leopard it should be faster.

The next Mac Pro will be Core I7 based and a screamer no doubt. But where will it beat my current machine? Video encoding and number crunching apps.

My machine handbrakes movies plenty fast enough for my needs, creates dvds and handles iMovie projects and my photography wonderfully. The only needed upgrade is video as I'm still running the 7300....but that's only a video card swap away.

People who make their living in the video world will no doubt be all over the New Mac Pros. I can't see myself upgrading until something like 16 cores are standard. When will that be? 2 years? 3 years?

I know it's been beat like a dead horse but I think Apple hurts itself on the desktop side by not having something in between the pro and iMac/Mini.

The iMac is great for people like my inlaws and parents who want an elegant solution, no mess, no fuss.

The mini is a good intro mac for the kids and grandma. People with little space, good working monitors and want something small and cheap (in mac terms) to email and surf the web.

What about the customers who want a traditional desktop but don't need the size and power of the Mac Pro? The midsize tower with a core2duo, a killer Ive's designed case and an upgradable GPU.

The lack of that machine hurts desktop sales. It would eat some Mac Pro sales but only from customers who are buying Pros simply because Apple lacks the machine above.

You can call these two Dell systems junk all you want, at least they give the people want they want.

http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/desktop-studio-mini?c=us&cs=19&l=en&ref=dthp&s=dhs

http://www.dell.com/studioxps

[pubwvj]

You can call these two Dell systems junk all you want, at least they give the people want they want.

http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/desktop-studio-mini?c=us&cs=19&l=en&ref=dthp&s=dhs

http://www.dell.com/studioxps

Sure, and they run Windoze. Everybody's tastes vary. Some people like spam. If you do, get a PC and enjoy.

[dwl017]

Sure, and they run Windoze. Everybody's tastes vary. Some people like spam. If you do, get a PC and enjoy.

What is the real difference for the adult user who is just doing the following:

-Checking email once or twice a day only on the weekend (*Sits in front of PC all day every day at work)
-surfing the web 30- 40 mins a day ** Weekend only
-Uploading family photos from the digital cam, 2 maybe 4 times a year
*Might make one or two movies a year from a few family photos
*Might make one or two movies a year from the family camcorder

Can anyone please tell me why the adult user above should buy a Mac over a PC? what is the advanatge of Mac over PC using the points above for John Doe user?

*Keep in mind that this is an adult professional not surfing porn, not using peer to peer sites etc. not using Face Book not downloading songs or surfing to any other corrupt web sites. I would put this person in the age bracket of 45 and above. ** Not using IM chat services etc.

Disclaimer:

I am a huge fan of both platforms and have owned both but I would really like to know how many Apple users are really just using there "high end" Macs to nothing more then surf the web, chat and check email.

[BenRoethig]

You can call these two Dell systems junk all you want, at least they give the people want they want.

http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/desktop-studio-mini?c=us&cs=19&l=en&ref=dthp&s=dhs

http://www.dell.com/studioxps

From what I've seen of the Studio and XPS lines, they're of much better quality than your average flimsy plastic Dell Inspiron. Of course they still run Vista.

[dwl017]

From what I've seen of the Studio and XPS lines, they're of much better quality than your average flimsy plastic Dell Inspiron. Of course they still run Vista.

I agree but if you are not a video editor or a photographer does having a premium OS make that much of a difference to the user who is just checking email and doing some light surfing on the weekends etc..

I have never heard a solid argument stating why this user would be better off with a Mac which clearly will cost more then a flimsy palstic Dell. Getting back to the thread topic, the world as we know it is a much different place then it was just a year ago and I really wonder how long Apple will be able to sustain this arrogant attidue going into the future.

[Eric S.]

What is the real difference for the adult user who is just doing the following:

-Checking email once or twice a day only on the weekend (*Sits in front of PC all day every day at work)
-surfing the web 30- 40 mins a day ** Weekend only
-Uploading family photos from the digital cam, 2 maybe 4 times a year
*Might make one or two movies a year from a few family photos
*Might make one or two movies a year from the family camcorder

Can anyone please tell me why the adult user above should buy a Mac over a PC? what is the advanatge of Mac over PC using the points above for John Doe user?



Macs don't have viruses that will wipe out your entire system? (Like what happened to my wife's Windows laptop.)

[BenRoethig]

I have never heard a solid argument stating why this user would be better off with a Mac which clearly will cost more then a flimsy palstic Dell.

If you're in the class of user who would need something in the class of that studio XPS or above, I can't think of one until you reach the actual need for a workstation except for the OS factor.

If you're in the market for a family computer, I can think of a lot of reasons an all in one makes sense. Recently my parents old HP finally crapped out giving me the perfect opportunity to unload my 18-month old ALU iMac on them. The old HP was wire city. Power cords for both the tower and the display, power and input cords for crappy 2.0 speakers, DVI cable, ethernet cable, mouse cable, keyboard cable, and the power and USB cables for the printer. That's ten different cables, eleven if they had a webcam.

The display, computer, and (much better sounding) 2.0 speakers are in a single unit reducing five cords to one. Webcam is also included. It has 802.11n wireless networking (that's finally fixed in 10.5.6), so it doesn't need the ethernet cable. The keyboard has a built in unpowered USB hub so the mouse connects to it using one port instead of two. You can even save the use of cables all together with built in bluetooth. The printer requires those two cables regardless. It also has a card reader/ 3-Port USB2.0 combo with the USB cable and a power cables. This also was mine, they could have gotten by with just a bus powered card reader.

That's six cables instead of ten. It doesn't tell the whole story though, as the cables are managed in a much better way. Only the power cords left the top of the desk. No cables going back and forth from the top of the display to the tower. In fact, if they really wanted to, they could have used an writing desk in the living room instead the computer desk.

No we come to usability. The slot loading DVD-writer and on keyboard eject button are more convenient from them. The slower write/read speeds aren't a big deal to them. My teenage sister and friends love front row and using photobooth and iChat/Yahoo video chats. Switching users is fast with only having to choose a name in the toolbar menu. Everything is nice and convenient for them with no having to reach under the desk to insert a CD/DVD and no having to remember to turn on the separate pieces. It's also dead quiet. I've heard the fan go on exactly once in a year and a half. The only thing I think it needs is a low end sub-$1000 model with 9400M integrated graphics to replace the spot once held by cheaper G3 iMacs and the eMac. The entry level price is a little high for a family machine.

So, if its a great machine, why didn't it work for me? The same traits that make it such a great family machine work against it in the high end consumer/ low end professional (aka prosumer) market. There's not a lot of headroom in the design and the internals are hard to get at. Apple has a tendency to think in absolutes and not realize the gray areas and differing needs that exist between consumer and professional.

[Eric S.]

If you're in the market for a family, I can think of a lot of reasons an all in one makes sense.

How much do families go for these days? ;)

[xbjllb]

He bought so long ago that he's still made a profit. And every other stock has done badly too. Anyhow bows a great time to buy more Apple stock.

And real estate too I hear. :rolleyes:

:apple:

[xbjllb]

What Apple has done in the past is just give you more bang for your buck.

Oh, absolutely. Those killer cutting edge Mac Pro towers with the Blu-ray writers last year before the HD battle was even over just knocked sales into the stratosphere.

Why, because of that alone there isn't one high def TV show or major motion picture being made today that is edited on anything else but Mac Pro's. :rolleyes:

Except for the trailblazing ones editing HD content and recording hit songs on their iPhones... :rolleyes:

:apple:

[BenRoethig]

How much do families go for these days? ;)

Pretty cheap. The forged documents are going to cost you though.

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I'm comparing 'Apple' to Mercedes. Not Mac Mini.

And 'serious help'? Really? Wow.

I might buy the comparison of OS X to Windows or Linux, but Apple's hardware is overpriced for what you get (and my implied point is that the Mac Mini was a poor performer on day 1; it's just SAD now for the price). And now that it's really just clone hardware in a pretty case (and worse yet desktops using slower laptop parts) it's even worse than in the past. This is my major beef with Apple. They need a competitive desktop machine. They need a midrange mini-tower to compete with machines from Dell and the like...something in the $800-1200 range, really with performance at a minimum level of the top of the line custom 24" iMac (with a real GPU; not the laptop stuff). Other than the inclusion of the monitor, the low-end iMacs should be selling at the $600 point and the current Mac-Mini should be $299 considering its utter crap hardware.

OS X may be worth a premium, but not THAT much of a premium. It's why I'd rather have the option of buying the OS separate and putting my own hardware together like you can with any Windows or Linux machine (short of having to use potentially unstable (because Apple tries to make them unstable) hacks.

[akm3]

I might buy the comparison of OS X to Windows or Linux, but Apple's hardware is overpriced for what you get (and my implied point is that the Mac Mini was a poor performer on day 1; it's just SAD now for the price). And now that it's really just clone hardware in a pretty case (and worse yet desktops using slower laptop parts) it's even worse than in the past. This is my major beef with Apple. They need a competitive desktop machine. They need a midrange mini-tower to compete with machines from Dell and the like...something in the $800-1200 range, really with performance at a minimum level of the top of the line custom 24" iMac (with a real GPU; not the laptop stuff). Other than the inclusion of the monitor, the low-end iMacs should be selling at the $600 point and the current Mac-Mini should be $299 considering its utter crap hardware.

OS X may be worth a premium, but not THAT much of a premium. It's why I'd rather have the option of buying the OS separate and putting my own hardware together like you can with any Windows or Linux machine (short of having to use potentially unstable (because Apple tries to make them unstable) hacks.

Exactly, Mercedes is overpriced, spec for spec, for what you get also. As is BMW, Audi, Acura, etc. Why buy one of those over priced luxury cars when any $8,000 Kia will get you from Point A to Point B? But don't go to Mercedes and yell at them for not making an $8,000 car - they are Mercedes. And, Mercedes drivers are OK with that, because Mercedes are cool and the driving experience is much more comfortable.

[Eraserhead]

Exactly, Mercedes is overpriced, spec for spec, for what you get also. As is BMW, Audi, Acura, etc. Why buy one of those over priced luxury cars when any $8,000 Kia will get you from Point A to Point B? But don't go to Mercedes and yell at them for not making an $8,000 car - they are Mercedes. And, Mercedes drivers are OK with that, because Mercedes are cool and the driving experience is much more comfortable.

And these days Mercedes aren't even good quality either...

[OllyW]

And these days Mercedes aren't even good quality either...

I've heard some people say the same about Apple.

[Henri Gaudier]

I might buy the comparison of OS X to Windows or Linux, but Apple's hardware is overpriced for what you get (and my implied point is that the Mac Mini was a poor performer on day 1; it's just SAD now for the price). And now that it's really just clone hardware in a pretty case (and worse yet desktops using slower laptop parts) it's even worse than in the past. This is my major beef with Apple. They need a competitive desktop machine. They need a midrange mini-tower to compete with machines from Dell and the like...something in the $800-1200 range, really with performance at a minimum level of the top of the line custom 24" iMac (with a real GPU; not the laptop stuff). Other than the inclusion of the monitor, the low-end iMacs should be selling at the $600 point and the current Mac-Mini should be $299 considering its utter crap hardware.

OS X may be worth a premium, but not THAT much of a premium. .

Absolutely spot on!

[BenRoethig]

I might buy the comparison of OS X to Windows or Linux, but Apple's hardware is overpriced for what you get (and my implied point is that the Mac Mini was a poor performer on day 1; it's just SAD now for the price). And now that it's really just clone hardware in a pretty case (and worse yet desktops using slower laptop parts) it's even worse than in the past. This is my major beef with Apple. They need a competitive desktop machine. They need a midrange mini-tower to compete with machines from Dell and the like...something in the $800-1200 range, really with performance at a minimum level of the top of the line custom 24" iMac (with a real GPU; not the laptop stuff). Other than the inclusion of the monitor, the low-end iMacs should be selling at the $600 point and the current Mac-Mini should be $299 considering its utter crap hardware.

You have a point, but your off on your price points by about $200. The mobile hardware isn't cheap. The Mini is such a bad deal because, well its basically stuck in time, three years back. If they had ever bothered to update it in a reasonable time frame and with the same hardware as the Macbook, it wouldn't be that bad.

Personally, I'd like to see everything put back roughly the way it was a couple years ago.

Mac Mini $499, $699
iMac $899 IG, $1299 20", $1599 24", $1999 high end graphics
Mac Pro i7 920 (940 BTO) $1499-$1699
Mac Pro Xeon $1999

13" Macbook entry $999
13" Macbook $1299
15" Macbook $1499 (1280x800 resolution, same specs as $1299 Macbook)
13" Macbook Pro $1699 (9500GS or 9600GS GPU replaces $1599 Macbook)
15" Macbook Pro $1999, $2499
17" Macbook Pro $2799
13" Macbook Air $1799, $1299

Difference between Macbook Pro and Macbook: higher resolution screen and expresscard slot in 15" model, backlit keyboard, dedicated graphics, faster CPU. For those saying I've added a bunch of models, I've added exactly three: The low end iMac, the low end PowerMac, and the 15" Macbook and deleted one in the iMac line. The 13" Macbook Pro is direct replacement for the higher Macbook.

OS X may be worth a premium, but not THAT much of a premium. It's why I'd rather have the option of buying the OS separate and putting my own hardware together like you can with any Windows or Linux machine (short of having to use potentially unstable (because Apple tries to make them unstable) hacks.

I would say its worth a pretty large premium. Not buy a workstation to get a desktop premium, but $300 or so over similar windows configuration.

I've heard some people say the same about Apple.

You know the old adage they sure don't make them like they used to, unfortunately it applies to macs these days.

[jackfrost123]

And these days Mercedes aren't even good quality either...

Apple can now very well merit that Steve-o comparison to mercedes. :rolleyes::D:D

[Tosser]

Apple can now very well merit that Steve-o comparison to mercedes. :rolleyes::D:D

"well, they're aluminium, and we all know how strong alu is – it's a metal!" ...

:p

[Eraserhead]

You know the old adage they sure don't make them like they used to, unfortunately it applies to macs these days.

That is true, they are more reliable now.

The only bad batch were the initial Core Duo Macs but otherwise they've had far less recalls than they used to. iMac G5, iBook G3 and more had serious issues.

[Tosser]

That is true, they are more reliable now.

The only bad batch were the initial Core Duo Macs but otherwise they've had far less recalls than they used to. iMac G5, iBook G3 and more had serious issues.

In that case, there were no problems with the Airbook 1.0 whatsoever, but people still had to play around with voltages for the CPU and fan speeds in order to not have a core shutdown when watching videos, video chatting or the like.

I'm sorry, but the idea that one should only count recalls as problems is pure idiocy.

[takao]

if mercedes was in any way similar to apple's desktop line up they would be selling a cabrio without a roof, the Actros and the Smart

[macrumorino]

Dell and HP are companies I'd call the "McDonalds and Burger King of computers".

Then Apple is the KFC of computers, but you have to pay extra because the fried chicken is glossy.

[MagnusVonMagnum]

if mercedes was in any way similar to apple's desktop line up they would be selling a cabrio without a roof, the Actros and the Smart

I think Apple is more like Toyota. They're NEVER on sale so you always pay more and can't get cheap financing; they're more stable than a Windows based machine and get better gas mileage (better use of hardware with the OS), but they lack power for the dollar and while well appointed (nice looking designs), they're mostly more or less the same (lackluster laptop parts). While GM or Chrysler or Ford might lack reliability and some of their cars lack as good of gas milage, if you want a Mustang, Viper or Corvette, you do NOT go to Toyota.

I suppose the Mac Pro doesn't quite fit the model since it is their version of a Corvette (more like Lexus then I suppose), but like a Lexus, it's more cachet than usability. Mac Pros are nice, but they're workstations, not high-end consumer machines. And low-end, mid-priced expandable and high-end CONSUMER desktops is where Apple is sorely lacking. Apple is all laptop and all-in-ones. The problem is the rest of the world doesn't LIKE all-in-ones. It's hard to say if Mac users like them that much either given Apple doesn't offer any other choices in the $1000-2000 price range. How can you make a case for an iMac's overall sales if there is NO ALTERNATIVE to pick from? You cannot. OS X is what drives iMac sales, not the design, which sounds nice until you realize your pretty clean desk surface needs loads of external boxes for backups, etc. because there is no internal expansion what-so-ever and you cannot play the latest whiz-bang games because the laptop GPU isn't up to the task when any PC in that price range could have 2-4x the graphics performance using two SLI based gaming cards.

Apple needs to get its desktop game together. I'd rather see a redesigned 'cube' again (one that can use performance parts) that still looks pretty but has some power and expansion room than endless glossy flat screens with no muscle in them. The Mac Pro case is OK by me for a mid-range based option (a little large, but that doesn't bother me; my desk has a built-in holder for large or small towers), but $2700 8-core Xenons is not a consumer friendly price range nor is it necessary. How about a 4-core Core 2 Duo $1800 version of the Mac Pro tower with a gaming friendly card, 2 hard drives (Time Machine ready) and 4 gigs of ram? THAT would sell like hot cakes, IMO. A pre-configured Windows/Fusion (or Parallels) option to maximize gaming options would be even better. And for goodness sake, start offering SLI hardware/software support. There is no reason OS X needs to be a POS when it comes to gaming. Apple has like $23 BILLION in cold hard cash (they could have single-handedly bailed out the entire auto industry) and they can't hire a few dozen extra people to shore up the areas where OS X lags? OpenCL is nice, but if your hardware options don't support it, what's the point?

[jackfrost123]

Then Apple is the KFC of computers, but you have to pay extra because the fried chicken is glossy.
hehehehe

In that case, there were no problems with the Airbook 1.0 whatsoever, but people still had to play around with voltages for the CPU and fan speeds in order to not have a core shutdown when watching videos, video chatting or the like.

I'm sorry, but the idea that one should only count recalls as problems is pure idiocy.

Exactly.

[DakotaGuy]

And cutting edge is two hyphenated words to content creators: BLU-RAY. Playing, editing, and authoring.

It's way beyond time. A year past time. At least. The Apple of five years ago would have done it the middle of last year as soon as the war was over.

Or become the "Lloyd's" of the new millenium (one of the top transistor radio manufacturers in the 60's, long since defunct.)

iCrap can only get you by for so long. Now you have to service folks who have money: Content creators. Content creators who have to deliver that content with BLU-RAY.

And not so long between updates on the high-ticket items! People with money read this website and the "When To Buy" list!

:apple:

I honestly think that Apple feels optical media is a thing of the past. I would consider upgrading my iMac if they added a Blu-ray burner, however until then I don't see any point since my Core Duo is fast enough for any task I throw at it.

I think Apple is more like Toyota. They're NEVER on sale so you always pay more and can't get cheap financing; they're more stable than a Windows based machine and get better gas mileage (better use of hardware with the OS), but they lack power for the dollar and while well appointed (nice looking designs), they're mostly more or less the same (lackluster laptop parts). While GM or Chrysler or Ford might lack reliability and some of their cars lack as good of gas milage, if you want a Mustang, Viper or Corvette, you do NOT go to Toyota.

I suppose the Mac Pro doesn't quite fit the model since it is their version of a Corvette (more like Lexus then I suppose), but like a Lexus, it's more cachet than usability. Mac Pros are nice, but they're workstations, not high-end consumer machines. And low-end, mid-priced expandable and high-end CONSUMER desktops is where Apple is sorely lacking. Apple is all laptop and all-in-ones. The problem is the rest of the world doesn't LIKE all-in-ones. It's hard to say if Mac users like them that much either given Apple doesn't offer any other choices in the $1000-2000 price range. How can you make a case for an iMac's overall sales if there is NO ALTERNATIVE to pick from? You cannot. OS X is what drives iMac sales, not the design, which sounds nice until you realize your pretty clean desk surface needs loads of external boxes for backups, etc. because there is no internal expansion what-so-ever and you cannot play the latest whiz-bang games because the laptop GPU isn't up to the task when any PC in that price range could have 2-4x the graphics performance using two SLI based gaming cards.

Apple needs to get its desktop game together. I'd rather see a redesigned 'cube' again (one that can use performance parts) that still looks pretty but has some power and expansion room than endless glossy flat screens with no muscle in them. The Mac Pro case is OK by me for a mid-range based option (a little large, but that doesn't bother me; my desk has a built-in holder for large or small towers), but $2700 8-core Xenons is not a consumer friendly price range nor is it necessary. How about a 4-core Core 2 Duo $1800 version of the Mac Pro tower with a gaming friendly card, 2 hard drives (Time Machine ready) and 4 gigs of ram? THAT would sell like hot cakes, IMO. A pre-configured Windows/Fusion (or Parallels) option to maximize gaming options would be even better. And for goodness sake, start offering SLI hardware/software support. There is no reason OS X needs to be a POS when it comes to gaming. Apple has like $23 BILLION in cold hard cash (they could have single-handedly bailed out the entire auto industry) and they can't hire a few dozen extra people to shore up the areas where OS X lags? OpenCL is nice, but if your hardware options don't support it, what's the point?

Apparently you never saw the "Saved by Zero" Toyota TV commercials that were running non-stop last month. Toyota is having the same sales problems as everyone else right now. They are leasing acres and acres of land in California to hold cars that are being shipped over, but not being bought by dealers. You would have no problems getting a "great deal" on a Toyota right now.

[Eraserhead]

In that case, there were no problems with the Airbook 1.0 whatsoever, but people still had to play around with voltages for the CPU and fan speeds in order to not have a core shutdown when watching videos, video chatting or the like.

I'm sorry, but the idea that one should only count recalls as problems is pure idiocy.

Ah, I didnt know about the Air, though I assume all other Intel Macs aside from the initial Core Duos have been OK.

[Tosser]

Ah, I didnt know about the Air, though I assume all other Intel Macs aside from the initial Core Duos have been OK.

At least with regards t core shutdowns. However, it was an example, and there have been problems with quite a lot of the other laptops – all without recalls and most without even Apple acknowledging them. One cannot deduce the amount of problems with the amount of recalls directly. That is simply just bad deduction.

Let's name but a few which has resulted in no recalls: Dead batteries from one day to another, sudden shutdown syndrome (I can't remember if we had gone core duo by that time, but google it), crooked keys, white stripes, weird touch pad problems, "bendy" computers that wouldn't sit flat on a table, crooked screens, sloppy hinges, graphics card prone to die, and on and on.

Neither of those things resulted in recalls – frankly, the only thing you can use the recalls for is to put them up against the reported problems and from that see how likely a company is to take their customers seriously. Apple, by that standard, really doesn't do recalls, unless they can get Sony or some other competitor to pay for it (world wide battery recalls a few years back), or if it's some very small thing like that iPhone/iPod compact adaptor.

But, as it stands, recalls are a piss poor measure of build quality. If for nothing else, any company really tries to not do it unless it's absolutely necessary. And Apple is one of those companies that think that almost any problem is too small for such a thing, unless a) someone else pays for it, or b) they have to by law.

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Apparently you never saw the "Saved by Zero" Toyota TV commercials that were running non-stop last month. Toyota is having the same sales problems as everyone else right now. They are leasing acres and acres of land in California to hold cars that are being shipped over, but not being bought by dealers. You would have no problems getting a "great deal" on a Toyota right now.

No, I live in a GM plant area. We rarely see Toyota commercials. Besides, I don't want a Toyota. They're boring. I drive a Subaru WRX. If I could get a hefty discount on a new WRX STI, I'd think about buying a new car, but those seem to have gone UP in price this past year, not down and I don't see any big discounts being advertised for them locally, despite a great Subaru dealer nearby. I do see some discounts for the Forester and Outback, but they're more workhorses, not fun cars.

The WRX is more of a "Linux" car anyway. It has thousands of after-market parts to tinker with the thing. Apple doesn't like tinkering what-so-ever.

[Eric S.]

Apparently you never saw the "Saved by Zero" Toyota TV commercials that were running non-stop last month.

Out of all the great rock songs butchered by commercials, that may have been the worst version ever. :eek: