Help me convince my wife that gays are not evil.

[TimDaddy]

Over the past few years, my wife has been going to church A LOT. Her radio is preset to all the religious channels. So, what has happened is, the loving church has changed my once happy and loving wife into a hateful and bitter Christian. She had gay and lesbian friends in the past, but now, when she hears someone on the radio saying that gays shouldn't be allowed to do this or that, she nods in agreement. We used to talk over politics before an election, and agree on who we'd vote for. This year, we agreed to vote for someone because we both didn't really like his two opponents. But then, right before the election, we get a card in the mail telling how the other guy will destroy our military by allowing gays to join. So, she voted for the ultra conservative based on that. (If she no longer wants to vote together, that's fine. It just irks me that a little gay bashing changed her mind so quickly.) My wife has become a very simple-minded, 1950's style church-wife. When we were in high school, she was a member of Future Business Leaders of America. But, before becoming a businesswoman, she wanted to serve a couple of years in the National Guard. Now, after a few years of church, she has told me these things: "I don't think a woman should be president. We can't handle a job that big." and "Woman aren't suited for the military." Her church has convinced her to discriminate against herself!!! But, that's not the issue here. I am getting sick of her homophobia. We have children, we had them before her deciding to join a group to tell her what to think, and I don't not want them raised like this. I was looking through the history on Safari, and found where she'd been searching for stuff about God and Gays. Of course, she got to read all these verses telling how god despises homosexuality more than other sins. Now, I'm not sure everything in the Bible is true just because it is there. I mean, it's a book. I can write a book, and probably a much easier to read book than the Bible! But, she does consider it all to be true. So, she will always beleive in sin, Hell, the devil, and that gays are the worst sinners and will go to Hell. One thing I would like to do is change my homepage, so when she opens the Safari she will see something from a homosexuals point of view. I don't want a radical, extreme left, feminist website. I want something that will remind her that these people are human beings, not much different than her. I don't want people burning US flags or anything like that. Someone one here once posted the simple statement "Some of us want nothing more than to marry the person we love." My God, I may be emotionally detached, but that almost made me cry. That is what I am looking for. I want my wife to see how mean and hurtful it is to hate people simply because of who they love. Could someone please suggest some websites. They don't even have to be for some organization. Some gay or lesbians personal web page will do, if it will show my wife that they are people with feelings, too.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I would remind her its not up to her to judge anyone, and if she is really following the teachings of christ she should love everyone, gays included and even her enemy's for those are the one's who are in most need of this. Jesus was so ahead of his time. He did seek out sinners to talk with and be with. we are all sinners, Gays, you and me. she should remember that. Jesus said love thy God with all your heart and love one another. did he not?

[Torajima]

Why can't you be more tolerant of your wife's views? As long as she isn't encouraging violence against gays, her views are as valid (or as invalid, depending on your point of view) as anyone else.

Trying to change her is only going to make her resent you...

[cr2sh]

Originally posted by Torajima
Trying to change her is only going to make her resent you...

First she hates gays.. then her husband.. DIVORCE HER! jeez...

The fact of the matter is, she believes in ficiton, she uses it to guide her life, and in the end... there's nothing you can do to change her mind. (short of writing a better novel than the bible)

Give up and accept that fact you're married to a confussed woman. Start documenting the crazy stuff she's doing, its only a matter of time before her hate drives her into divorcing you (a sympathizer of the gays) and trying to take the children.. then, the mother will have sole custody and will teach them to hate you, and she'll raise them to be close-minded, homophobic hate machines. Mark my word...

This post, is just my opinion. I realize others may differ and I respect that, but you asked and I answered.

I could link you to a few lesbian porno sites.. that always makes me appreciate homosexuals more. :)

Wow, I'm super offensive today.

[virividox]

dont try to convince her actively, just talkt o her about it once in a while, but dont make it an issue, i mean if its isnt hurting ur marriage and she isnt inciting people to act violently then there shouldnt be a that much concern, given her views may be odd compared to todays standards it doesnt make it any more or less valid

[topicolo]

Maybe you should take yourselves into counselling. A professional will probably have better advice for maintaining your relationship than we would.

[FritzTheWonderM]

TimDaddy the first question is: Are you gay? If so then you have a bigger problem in your marriage than your wife's opinion. If not, why is this particular opinion of hers a problem?

I agree with you that a church shouldn't be teaching folks to hate anything. Unfortunately if you look at history (including very recent history) when churches go bad this seems to happen a lot. Clearly though, according to 'traditional christian' teachings homosexuality is against the rules. So are adultery, murder, robbery, etc. Note that nowhere in christian teaching are those who commit 'sin' singled out, but the 'sin' itself. In other words adulterers aren't bad people, just doing something bad. Just remind her that we like the people but dislike the actions. Or as my grandmother put it "All God's children can repent..."

I return to my previous question now, why are you offended by the fact that she thinks homosexuality is a no-go? Why not be offended by some other christian teaching? She probably doesn't think too highly of jews, does that offend you? She probably thinks adultery is wrong too. Yet you chose homosexuality as a 'sin' worthy of defense. Why?

[Opteron]

Hmm, wasn't it Marx who said
"Religion is the opiate of the masses"

Aside from that I think Paul could offer some insight.

[caveman_uk]

Originally posted by Torajima
Why can't you be more tolerant of your wife's views? As long as she isn't encouraging violence against gays, her views are as valid (or as invalid, depending on your point of view) as anyone else.

Trying to change her is only going to make her resent you...
Tolerant of what? Hating gays? People tolerated the Nazi's and their 'we hate jews' attitude and look where that got us...

What's there to hate about two people loving each other? Does it actually hurt anyone?

I think your wife will need rather more convincing than just a new homepage on Safari...

[question fear]

just out of curiousity which church is your wife listening to?
also, and please dont take this the wrong way, i noticed you said your wife has been looking at passages on gays and the bible and seems to be more focussed on it...is there someone in her personal life who came out and it scared her? has she ever had a fantasy about women? or have the two of you ever talked about that, or anything? the reason I ask is based on your description of her behavior it seems shes mostly being influenced by opinions on gays, and maybe if you were able to figure out the root of her focus then you could work to understand better.
does that make sense?

as for websites try advocate.com or planetout.com, both fairly mainstream gay and lesbian newsmagazine/website type things...might help to give her a glimpse into how gay culture is not so different.

[brogers]

I am Southern Baptist and a regular at Church. I sing in the choir and am a Deacon. Through all of my church going, I have never heard "hate gays". It is not taught in the mainstream church. Now, with that said, there are extremists in everything. Would like to know what church your wife attends. FritzTheWonderM said it the best. Hating the person is wrong. Dissagreeing with the act or livestyle (sin) is the more appropriate thing. This is where Christians get into trouble. They try to be the judge that only GOD can be.

Did I mention that my neighbors are gay. Do I run out and grab my boys and bring them back inside whenever my neighbors are outside? Not on your life. They are wonderful people. I just happen to disagree with their lifestyle. Tell your wife it is OK to hate that, but as a Christian, I/we are charged with loving all people.

BR

[Kwyjibo]

Well you need to take a few steps,

I agree with the documenting comment because anyone whose filled with 'hate' and its documented may have less control over a custody battle .... in the event of a divorce.

Make sure she is not teaching your children all of these extremist values, the last thing America needs is more extremists in either direction ...

Its hard to change people (if not impossible), you may not be able to effect this at all especially if she continues to goto these church groups and what have you.


One of the best things i've ever lived by, is that you don't have to accept something as right or proper you just simply need to tolerate it. Its perfectly alright for her to disagree towards this lifestyle but that miles away from 'hating gays'. Also keep in mind often times these things are a slippery slope and opinions like this ARE an important judge of character ....

You need to take stock of the situation and do more than just changing the homepage ...

[hvfsl]

I think you should find a church that does not promote hate towards gays and go with her. Or go with her to her church so you can discuss it (in a carm manor) afterwards.

Whatever you do, dont resort to diseption to show her about gays. You need to be with her and look at the bible with her. Let her show you the bible verses that show gays as being evil and discuss it with her.

[mactastic]

Log Cabin Republicans (www.lcr.org)

You might start here with her.

[jared_kipe]

It doesn't matter if he is gay. The thing is that those stupid christian ideas about women and gays are bad for the current world. Thus we can't have them being thought to the children can we. The bible has some interesting stuff about how man is the glory of god, and women is the glory of man: and that is in the new testament.
Fact of the matter all humans are more of less the same, so any teachings that tell you one person is better than another, because of gender sexuality creed or sin, is just against a common goal for humanity.

[FritzTheWonderM]

Originally posted by Kwyjibo
Make sure she is not teaching your children all of these extremist values...

Um, forgive me for bringing it up but when did teaching your kids not to be gay become extremist? Certainly your mom and dad thought it was ok to be staight.

Going too far the other way, (no pun intended) has the same problems as being too 'conservative'. Really all we need are vomitoriums and orgies and we are ancient Rome.

[Sun Baked]

Sorry, no can do.

I cannot even prove that the Muppets aren't evil, which could explain why Disney wanted them. ;)

[rueyeet]

Originally posted by FritzTheWonderM
Um, forgive me for bringing it up but when did teaching your kids not to be gay become extremist?

Thing is, you can't teach someone not to be gay--evidence points to a genetic predisposition, if not outright cause--so that's not the issue. It's about not teaching your kids to hate or look down on people who are different.

TimDaddy, I'd take a serious look at the church your wife is involved with; she seems to have re-defined her entire life around it and these intolerant views contrary to her former, more open-minded self. Wholesale personality change like that is usually a bad sign. Just because they're using Christ's name doesn't mean they aren't a cult....have they asked for money, or anything else inappropriate?

Unfortunately, the conservative movement these days seems to not just be about keeping their own values, but trying to force everyone else to keep them too, and despising and ridculing anyone who chooses not to. I don't know how anyone can reconcile that with the message of love that Jesus taught. In my opinion, hate is not a rational thing.

Good luck to you.

[Dippo]

Originally posted by rueyeet
Thing is, you can't teach someone not to be gay--evidence points to a genetic predisposition, if not outright cause--s.

That is complete junk science. There is just as much evidence that proves that "gayness" isn't genetic at all.

Politics aside, there is plenty of evidence for each side of the gay gene debate but there isn't enough evidence to prove either side is true. So be careful how you state "facts" when they are not.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
I would remind her its not up to her to judge anyone, and if she is really following the teachings of christ she should love everyone, gays included and even her enemy's for those are the one's who are in most need of this. Jesus was so ahead of his time. He did seek out sinners to talk with and be with. we are all sinners, Gays, you and me. she should remember that. Jesus said love thy God with all your heart and love one another. did he not?

I believe it is said those without sin should cast the first stone. Not to say in my mind as a gay male that I am sinful.

[sethypoo]

Originally posted by cr2sh
First she hates gays.. then her husband.. DIVORCE HER! jeez...




How old are you, are you married, and do you have any idea how idiotic that statement is?

Marriages do not end just because there is a difference in opinion between man and wife (or domestic partner).

Geez.....

[sonofslim]

a dollar by paypal says this thread gets out of hand and is shut down before 45 posts... any takers?

for what it's worth, TimDaddy, i think looking out for your kids is the appropriate thing to do. they need to see someone being open-minded, and that includes tolerance of other people's sexualities as well as other people's religions. tough spot for you, though... good luck.

[Dippo]

Originally posted by sonofslim
a dollar by paypal says this thread gets out of hand and is shut down before 45 posts... any takers?

I'll take that, but you can't flame anyone and you can't pay anyone else to start flaming.

TimDad: I think there are deeper problems in your relationship then just your wife hating gays. Even though I don't approve of the gay lifestyle, I think that promoting hate is just as dangerous.

I do wander what they preach about at her "church"?

[sethypoo]

To add.....

I am a practicing Catholic. My church (which I have gone to since age 4) has taught me that gays are people too, not 'evil beings' that other Christian churches seem to make them, and that everyone in the world deserves and gets God's love, regardless of sexual orientation.

What church is she going to? What denomination?

[FritzTheWonderM]

Originally posted by sonofslim
a dollar by paypal says this thread gets out of hand and is shut down before 45 posts... any takers?


This ought to do it;
Speaking of homosexuality and religion, why don't Episcopalians play chess?


Apparently, they can't tell the difference between a bishop and a queen. :eek:

[Torajima]

Originally posted by caveman_uk
Tolerant of what? Hating gays? People tolerated the Nazi's and their 'we hate jews' attitude and look where that got us...



Disagreeing with homosexuality is NOT the same as hating gays. What a lot of people don't seem to understand is, tolerance does NOT equal acceptance. People can tolerate homosexuality without agreeing with it.

The Nazis, on the other hand, didn't tolerate anything.



What's there to hate about two people loving each other? Does it actually hurt anyone?



Lets get one thing straight, homosexuality is about sex, not love. You can love someone of the same sex without wanting to sleep with them. "Romantic Love" is itself just another form of sexual attraction.

Is it wrong? Well that depends on your point of view.

Most religions (not just christianity) do teach that homosexuality is wrong.

Biologically speaking, it's definately wrong... homosexuality is obviously not what nature intended (and before someone screams that homosexuality exists in nature, the fact of the matter is, homosexuality in the animal kingdom is almost always a feint... a trick used by submissive males to get closer to the females of the species).

Evolutionary speaking, I can't think of anything more dangerous to a species than sexual confusion.

Is it bad for the individuals involved? Maybe. Females seem to handle this lifestyle better than men, who tend to be more promiscuous and thus face increased risks of sexually transmitted diseases and the mental and emotional problems that tend to result from such a lifestyle.

But here's the crux of the matter: we live in a free society, and no one... not the government and certaintly not the church... should be telling consenting adults what sort of sexual behavior they can engage in behind closed doors.

My advice to homosexuals would be to stop caring what other people think. Your private sex lives do not require our acceptance or approval (and if you kept more of your sex lives private, you'd probably find a lot more acceptance).

After all, you don't see heterosexuals getting bent out of shape over the church's stance on masterbation, oral sex, or sexual positions (Missionary? No thanks!).

Take issue with people who incite violence (for any reason), but it's pointless to argue with a religous person who believes homosexuality is wrong. You're not going to change their views, and in America, they have a right to express those views, no matter how unpopular.

[Counterfit]

24 posts now, I'll raise you a fiver :D

[sonofslim]

Originally posted by Dippo
I'll take that, but you can't flame anyone and you can't pay anyone else to start flaming.

you're on!

[rainman::|:|]

I'm sorry to hear about your wife. There seems to be a trend lately, or perhaps I just know more of them, women who turn themselves into 50's housewives. My partner works with one that doesn't like sharing her opinion, because her husband should set her opinion, and she doesn't think women should be allowed to drive. It's all rooted in the bible somehow... it always is. I'll never understand it, except for the obvious comfort in letting people control your life for you... but still, today's women should have enough self-esteem to know better. Anyway, you *could* go at it from the angle, husband knows best, and insist she agree with you... but more reasonably, let her have her opinion (however nasty it is), but as was said before, don't let the children hear hate speech.

paul

[themadchemist]

Originally posted by FritzTheWonderM
Um, forgive me for bringing it up but when did teaching your kids not to be gay become extremist? Certainly your mom and dad thought it was ok to be staight.

Going too far the other way, (no pun intended) has the same problems as being too 'conservative'. Really all we need are vomitoriums and orgies and we are ancient Rome.

There is a difference between accepting heterosexuality and "teaching your kids not to be gay." That is extremist, or it should be. I'm sorry. It might be difficult to do, but if your child is homosexual, then I doubt that there's any kind of teaching that could have been done to make him/her heterosexual, although there are plenty of things that could have been done to promote secrecy, suppression, and self-hate, all wonderfully healthy activities for a child to be engaging in.

Unfortunately, extreme conservatism is far more common in this country than extreme liberalism. There aren't that many orgies going on all about, but there are plenty of people filled with hate and bigotry. And honestly, I'd trade bigotry for orgies any day.

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
and she doesn't think women should be allowed to drive. Hey, I agree with her to an extent there. And if you think it's sexist, go grab carriages in a grocery store parking lot for a summer or two. You'll quickly learn what kind of people to stay away from while they're driving.

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by jared_kipe
those stupid christian ideas about women and gays are bad for the current world.

In a forum such as this one with people of diverse views attacking an entire relgion and calling their views stupid is not a good way to argue.

I'd also ask what stupid ideas you're talking about?

I'm Catholic and my Church teaches that Gay people are people, just like everyone else. What the church says is sinful is homosexual sex, it also says that promiscus sex is sinful, pre-marital sex is sinful, stealing, lying, etc. No where does it claim that we should hate gay people. We may find what they do to be wrong, but frankly if you can find someone who hasn't done something wrong, well I believe it was "let he who is without sin..."

To the original post, if you are uncomfortable with your wifes position, talk to her. Try and understand why she is feeling the way she does. And I would talk to a minister or priest and ask them for advice. They shoudl be able to help you find biblical passages that teach about forgiveness and not to judge, etc. Communication is the key.

[bousozoku]

I've seen things like this happen with people who get hooked into the Church of God, Assembly of God, Nazarene, and Pentecostal denominations of Christianity.

It's difficult for me to believe that a free thinker would truly become engrossed in something enough to turn off all other outside influences, though. I was in an inter-denominational choir for a couple of years way back when and I could never believe the stories about those churches.

I'm not sure how dancing anywhere, having musical instruments in church, or cutting your hair was evil. It's not surprising that they could convince someone that gays are evil when more easily accepted things could be.

The only thing I would suggest is reminding her of times when she was independent. If she doesn't want to hear about it, tell her that the man is in charge of the household and she will listen. ;)

[pseudobrit]

Well, she apparently wants it old fashioned all of a sudden, eh? I've seen pamphlets from some Protestant sects that are quite full of fire and brimstone and "father know best, woman must submit" kind of crap from the Old Testament.

So embrace that.

Tell her the Bible instructs her that it's her duty to obey you without question. Then smack her around a little, just like the Bible would approve of. Then ask her if she's ready to join the 21st century and read a little New Testament instead of select bits of hateful drivel that saturate the Old.

[leo]

Originally posted by Torajima
Biologically speaking, it's definately wrong... homosexuality is obviously not what nature intended.
It is "intended". It has developed, so it was "intended" (i.e. there is an evolutional advantage). There is nothing "wrong" about it.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0C1EF83A5F0C748CDDAB0894DC404482

(and before someone screams that homosexuality exists in nature, the fact of the matter is, homosexuality in the animal kingdom is almost always a feint... a trick used by submissive males to get closer to the females of the species).

This is far from being scientific consensus. For more complex species (and the homosexuality ratio tends to increase with social complexity of the species), homosexual individuals are believed to have a stabilizing influence on their society, keeping the community together (and sometimes taking part in upbringing) while not interfering with reproduction.
It is not "almost always a feint". In some cases it is, but in some cases not. If it was, it would be very hard to explain why some animals exclusively engage in homosexual activities. They are homosexual to all appearances.

http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc97/1_4_97/bob1.htm

http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm

Just ask any respectable animal behaviorist. This is also what is taught at schools in Europe.

[Nanda Devi]

Wow, I can't think of anything more devestating than my significant other suddenly drastically changing his views and essentially becoming a different person. The fact that my boyfriend and I see eye to eye on everything and have the same beliefs is extremely important to me, and I've never been able to understand relationships in which the couple seems to have nothing in common and doesn't share the same basic worldview. It seems like it would make for an awfully shallow relationship, or one of the people would end up changing to become like the other person (for example, my sister used to be quite liberal and then married a straight-laced conservative guy and she's been drifting that way ever since).

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about your situation because you must feel helpless and I'm sure in a way you feel like you've lost the woman you married. I agree with the person who suggested counselling... some serious communication is definitely going to have to take place because although your wife is of course entitled to her own opinion, the whole problem here stems from the fact that this new opinion ISN'T her OWN opinion, it's the work of the church that seems to have her brainwashed. I mean all of a sudden she believes that her gender is inferior - you don't just decide that one day, it takes some heavy-handed convincing.

I think the people who are suggesting that your wife is entitled to her own views and you can't change her are missing the point here... it's not as if you married your wife knowing she had these opinions and now want to change her. She held entirely different beliefs when you married her, if I'm not mistaken, judging from your post. Now she's got a whole new (twisted) view of things and it's the direct result of being brainwashed by what sounds like an incredibly backward religious organization. I think you owe it to her to TRY to change her... back to who she was!

N.D.

[Kwyjibo]

Originally posted by FritzTheWonderM
Um, forgive me for bringing it up but when did teaching your kids not to be gay become extremist? Certainly your mom and dad thought it was ok to be staight.



The extremist values I was referring to are those that promote a hate policy towards these groups. I'm not saying you have to sit a child down and say well you've got to pick whether your straight or gay ... children should not have that decision they should figure it out on their own. My point is that parents should avoiding teaching hate period and not that they have to show kids gay porn but they shouldn't actively say derogative things infront of or around their children ..

[G5orbust]

I have a theory based on biological principles but not rooted in fact. Anyone who wants to help me out or elaborate please do.
-------------------------------------------

Love is not a magical, mystical thing that comes over someone when they meet and have a relationship with that special person. Instead "love" and its component emotional states are etriggered by the release of certain amounts of certain brain chemicals that are released by the body under certain stimulus. In most humans, this stimulus is a member of the opposite sex- we are genetically imprinted to be attracted to those with whom we can porcreate with to further our genes. This eliminates the "holyness" of love and its component emotions.

Now, to the topic of homosexuality. Since genes determine the formation of body chemicals, of which some form the love emotions, homosexuality is nothing but a different release of brain chemicals that are in response to the stimulus of a member of the same sex. Where straight people may feel a camaraderie with their fellow man/woman, homosexuals may have the brain chemicals triggered that make them see members of the same sex as love interests instead of just potential friends. (Note: This deals only with homosexuality in the sense of man/man and woman/woman and does not apply in its current form to other things such as transvestitism, bisexuality, etc.)

When looked at this way, homosexuality is not presented as 'wrong' or 'unholy' or what have you. Instead it is protrayed as just a genetic difference (from the majority of the population) as acceptable as any other genetically based difference. Homosexuality should never be scorned or suppressed nor should people try scorn it as if it were some kind of a disease, as it is not a choice nor a disease- the only choice involved, from my perspective based on the above information, is whether or not to be open about it.

[scem0]

Have a long talk with her. I think that would be the best solution, although it won't be easy. My mom is *slightly* homophobic, because of her christian upbringing. Like many people have said, the churches she has gone to haven't said that gay people are evil, but that their love is not natural, and not what God would want. He accepts them anyways, its just not what God had in mind for love.

The second step you need to take is getting your wife to another church, maybe a non-denominational more modern church. They tend to have more tolerance on this sort of thing.

I really don't know what I'd say to your wife. It isn't easy to show someone that is firmly rooted in false beliefs that they are wrong. I've often argued with my mom about how I shouldn't have to go to church. I've been exposed to christianity for years and years, and I'm sick of hearing the same crap over and over again. I try to convince her that Christianity just isn't for me. But she has been a staunch christian since her childhood, and I can't begin to break her shell.

Tell your wife that God doesn't hate anyone (this is what MOST churches preach) - and that although being gay is a sin according to the bible, so is hating someone. Tell her that she should embrace homosexuals, as Jesus would. Tell her that homosexuality is no more of a sin than lying, stealing, etc.

I think that homosexuality being a sin is ************, but most christians hold to the beliefs I stated above, to the best of my knowledge.

scem0

[Gus]

As a Christian, I defintely belive that there are quite a few sects of Christianity that tend to be fundamentalist, or "extreme" as others have called it. While these views or practices or views are not what those in the mainstream feel are "normal", it is their belief nontheless.

While it is true that in Chriatian beliefs homosexuality is a sin, that does not mean we hate homosexuals. We do not hate them any more than we hate the adulterer or the thief. The fact that we have an opinion of them as sinners does not mean we are judging them either. In our Bible, God makes it very clear that those who break his commandments (not just the Big Ten either) are sinners. For that manner, all humans are sinners, thus the reason Christ died on the cross for us. We are not judging, but we are following the guidelines of our faith. I know many homosexuals in my field, and I do not discriminate against them or look down on them, but rather I worry for them and what consequences their lifestyle will bring later.

Just because everyone does not think as you do does not mean that they are intolerant, hateful or stupid, it only means that they do not see the world as you do. Calling Christians stupid or foolish or dupes is the same as calling any other groups bby names that are deemed "hurtful". We are hurt as much by those comments as any of you would be by people who would put you down for your ideas/actions/beliefs. The Bible to us is not "just a book" or a novel, it is the Word of God. If you believe in science or any secular beliefs, it is as truthful to us as science and humanism are to others. Please keep this in mind before reverting to labelling. we are not all represented by those who choose to abuse their faith.

</End of rant>

Regards,
Gus

[rainman::|:|]

G5orbust, i agree completely. Further, i think homosexuality is actually intended in the human species, as a method of population control. such complex systems do exist in nature, and it makes sense. In this case, gays make up a large majority that cannot have children readily, but are loving and make good parents, and can help greatly with the unwanted children in america. Nature looks after itself.

Gus, i appreciate your view, just remember gays are generally hostile to conservative religion because these are the people writing the laws... if gays were denying christians rights, you'd be pissed too...

i don't ask that you or your religion accept it, but i do ask that your morality not be forced on me and my partner.

paul

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Torajima

Lets get one thing straight, homosexuality is about sex, not love.


you have no idea what you're talking about. i know a lot of gay couples who are very much in love. and some of them, just like some straight couples, rarely have sex anymore.

You can love someone of the same sex without wanting to sleep with them.


you can also love someone of the opposite sex w/o wanting to sleep w/ them. or if someone does that, does it make them gay? or does it mean that heterosexuality is only about sex?

homosexuality in the animal kingdom is almost always a feint... a trick used by submissive males to get closer to the females of the species).


got a link for that?


Evolutionary speaking, I can't think of anything more dangerous to a species than sexual confusion.


how about hate? intolerance? ethnic cleansing?

Females seem to handle this lifestyle better than men, who tend to be more promiscuous and thus face increased risks of sexually transmitted diseases and the mental and emotional problems that tend to result from such a lifestyle.


substantiate w/ a link, please


My advice to homosexuals would be to stop caring what other people think. Your private sex lives do not require our acceptance or approval (and if you kept more of your sex lives private, you'd probably find a lot more acceptance).


i'll tell my friends. they'll love you for it. and how rude of you to tell someone that they're "allowed" to be who they are, but only in private. if you can't handle seeing two guys holding hands, that's your problem.

personally, i'm happy for anyone comfortable enough w/ themselves to express it publicly. you and i probably aren't even aware of how good we have it.

[K4NN4B15]

[quote] Evolutionary speaking, I can't think of anything more dangerous to a species than sexual confusion.


how about hate? intolerance? ethnic cleansing?[quote]

dont forget about organized religion.

[JamesDPS]

Wow I love these threads -- so many issues, so little maximum number of words allowed in a post. cf. the thread on Bush's proposed amendment, too -- I imagine that's how the topic came up.

I face similar problems sometimes with my g/f -- she's a "practicing" Catholic (I love that term), and I'm pretty much agnostic. Or maybe "non-institutionalized-religion spiritualist" would be better? I dunno... Anyways we have our differences occasionally, clearly, and it's certainly no reason to break up. You cannot choose what you believe, your beliefs choose you. On the other hand, I think it IS relevant which church your wife goes to. As a lot of people have pointed out (Kwyjibo I think has, maybe), even the most conservative churches teach that being gay is not a sin, that the act of gay sex (and every other kind of sex that isn't to create a child in a marriage) is a sin, and that none of us are without sin, and that you shouldn't judge others because you, in turn, can be judged as well. Of course, it's a natural human tendency to judge others -- it sometimes makes for a fairly effective way to pick friends (i.e. not hanging around with murderers) but being gay is not a choice like committing a sin, and sex is something every human being needs, so it is possibly one of the least "judgeable" things someone can do. Of course, adulterous sex is pretty bad, but I'm talking about sex between two people who truly love one another regardless of whether or not they are married, etc. Personally, I disagree with the Catholic church on this point: I think loving sex is one of the greatest gifts God ever gave humans - not only is it a way to become literally incredibly close to someone, but it also creates a spiritual connection between two people (if they are in love).

Wow I think I just went off on a huge tangent. Basically, everyone sins (see the "Family Guy" episode where Peter is looking for a potty training book, tells the salesman he's Catholic, and instead of "Everyone Poops" gets something similar to "Pooping is a sin and that is concentrated evil coming out the back of you"). Be tolerant of people, except maybe for people who show no tolerance to others. I still haven't worked that one out yet, but I think it's right.

Someone said it best (it's a signature line quote someone has here), that we should keep the company of people who seek the truth and run from those who have found it.

Added note: on evolution, I think that sharing yourself with the gene pool (and, specifically, with a suitable mate, i.e. "hottie" - j/k) is a primary function of a living being (which theoretically would exclude homosexuals from participating) but that it is ALSO an evolutionary duty to perform deeds that better the quality of life of everyone and contribute to the longevity of the species, which, in the end, is what evolution is supposed to be all about. So even from a purely biological point of view, homosexuals can be essential (or damaging) to the species just like everyone else.

[TimDaddy]

Woah! What have I started.

To those who suggested that I tell her that she must be submissive to me because the Bible said so: I really thought about that! But, I would just be using the person that she has changed into to my advantage.

Maybe hate was too strong of a word. It just seems to me that a lot of Christians say they love the sinner and hate the sin, but show that they hate the sinner as well. Okay, some small examples that build up and make me feel like she hates them. She absolutely does not want our children in contact with homosexuals. She feels that gay men are very likely to molest little boys. I bring up the fact that SHE has never molested a little boy, and that I have never molested a little girl, and she replies with "but we aren't sick." She does not think that homosexuals should be allowed to be teachers, because again they are a threat to the children. For that matter, she feels that any business that doesn't want to hire gays should be able to choose not to. (Where's the love in that? I don't like who you live with, so you can starve in the streets.) There was recently a big controversy around here concering a Catholic church in Lexington that baptized the daughter of a gay couple and welcomed into the church. Of course, she agrees with the masses that say it shouldn't have happened. (Assuming the Bible is the truth, God is God, Jesus is the son, everything is correct, why deny the child the word of God because you their parents sin when they have sex?) Of course she is against gay marriage. (Who cares? It's their life. Two men getting married doesn't make my marriage less valuable.) So, I guess I was wrong to say that she hates gays. She has described their actions/lifestyles as evil, but I don't recall her ever actually saying "I hate gays." It just seems to me that this all adds up to hate. Maybe I'm wrong.

Please don't bash her too much, I really do love my wife. We are just becoming so different on the big issue of freedom that it is becoming difficult for me to talk to her. A few people have asked if she has ever had any lesbian fantasy or experience. I'm going to regret spilling this over the internet, but I started it so her goes. A couple of years ago, sort of. She was going to church at this time, but she was more in the "Praise God" mode than her current "People who are different than us must be silenced" mode. She, and ex-girlfriend of mine, and I got together one night. We had talked about this kind of thing before, but never really expected it to happen. Well, anyway, it did. It was supposed to be just a fun, sexual, no strings attached kind of thing. But, in the morning, when the other girl had gone home, my wife had some confusing feelings. She actually told me "before this, I never understood how a person could love someone of the same sex in the way the men and women love each other." Maybe something was talked about at church later that made her feel ashamed of her feelings. I don't know.

I really want to be tolorant of her opinions. If she just assumes my feelings on everthing, then I am the one making her into the old-school submissive housewife. Everyone changes. Neither of us are the same person we were when we met, or even when we got married. But, I'm not sure how we can survive when we have drifted so far apart on some things. It's not just the gay thing. That is a big symptom of the big picture. We both always believed EVERYONE should be free to do as they wish, as long as they weren't infringing on anyone else's rights. Now, it's like she wants to do away with democracy and let the church make the rules, and everyone can follow them whether they believe in God, or that church's version of God, or not.

I'm not really sure what has happened with her. I went to church with her for a while, but I got sick of being told how to think. I'm not talking about loving God. They tell you who to vote for, how to feel about the war, politics, everything. But, we were on the same page as recently as November. We supported a democratic candidate for governor, though we aren't exactly democrats. A sixty-something year old Catholic neighbor came over and began to lecture her about how "Chandler supports abortion, Chandler supports gay rights, Chandler won't advertise on the Christian radio station that I work at." And she fired back with "I don't care what gays do at home, Chandler can't afford to advertise on every low-marketshare radio station in the state, and I hate abortion but it isn't the only issue, and the other guy isn't going to get rid of it any way. I just think Chandler will do a better job of running our state." And, get this, she is the one who convinced me to vote for this abortion supporting, gay friendly Democrat. I don't know, maybe I have the problem. Maybe I am just threatened by her changing so much so quickly. Maybe I need counseling alone. I don't know. We are going out without the children this weekend. It's supposed to be warm, I think I'll see if she wants to skip the movie and take a walk. Just talk, with no distractions.

And again, I am sorry for saying that she hates gays, when all I know is that it seems that way to me. It SEEMS that she hates freedom. Maybe I just don't know her as well as I once did, and I am using one constant disagreement as an excuse to blame her. Maybe I just needed people to talk to.

Another thing, I am not gay. I also and not Muslim, but I don't like when people around me spread hatred toward Muslims. I have a Muslim friend, and maybe his God is a false God, maybe he is going to burn in Hell, I don't know. But this is America, the supposed land of the free, and he should be free to be who he is. I am not Mexican or Black, but I can't stand the hatred that is spread toward them. I am a white male, and I don't like the hatred that is spread toward us. I just wish everyone would get along, whether we agree or not.

I'm going to shut up and go to bed now. I'm sorry if I've wasted anyone's time. Thanks for talking to me.

[Opteron]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
I'm sorry to hear about your wife. There seems to be a trend lately, or perhaps I just know more of them, women who turn themselves into 50's housewives. My partner works with one that doesn't like sharing her opinion, because her husband should set her opinion, and she doesn't think women should be allowed to drive. It's all rooted in the bible somehow... it always is. I'll never understand it, except for the obvious comfort in letting people control your life for you... but still, today's women should have enough self-esteem to know better. Anyway, you *could* go at it from the angle, husband knows best, and insist she agree with you... but more reasonably, let her have her opinion (however nasty it is), but as was said before, don't let the children hear hate speech.

paul

Counterfit I'll take that rase and expect a "PM" to arrange the transaction:p

As always, words of wisdom from Paul.

It might also be worth haing a chat to the Paster. And discuss his views, and how they are affecting your life.

[sonofslim]

dang. if all it takes is a buck to keep a thread about religion and sexuality (mostly) civil, i'm happy to pay up... Dippo, PM me yer email and you'll be one whole dollar richer.

[cr2sh]

Originally posted by sethypoo
do you have any idea how idiotic that statement is? Hence the joke... try to keep up ol' chap. :)

[caveman_uk]

Originally posted by Opteron
This is the 45'th post. I WANT MY US$1
That's about 54p in UK money...won't buy much. Sadly...

[Sayhey]

My advice, TimDaddy, is to run - don't walk - to the nearest marriage counselor that you trust. If your wife is having trouble dealing with the emotions she had from your experience with another woman, then it will undermine your marriage. It sounds from the outside that she has retreated into the very simple black and white answers of the her church to cope with feelings she can't handle. If you don't help her deal with those feelings now, I'm willing to bet you and your family will pay for it latter.

[sethypoo]

Originally posted by cr2sh
Hence the joke... try to keep up ol' chap. :)

Oh, I'm "keeping up"!:rolleyes:

What joke? The fact you don't seem to understand the concept of "marriage" being a commitment, not a cursory get together that is to be dissolved at the first sign of trouble?

Please.:rolleyes:

[vniow]

If I hear homosexuality described as a "lifestyle" one more time I'll scream so hard that it'll break the glass on the monitors of whoever's reading it.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally posted by vniow
If I hear homosexuality described as a "lifestyle" one more time I'll scream so hard that it'll break the glass on the monitors of whoever's reading it.

I am going to assume that this is positive of gays/lesbians. Why would anyone choose to be a sub portion of society.

Though i am gay, there was one woman that I can say that i loved. She was a lesbian in waiting (heard she divorced her first husband, and second; and found a woman that met her physical and emotional needs). For me it was a chance to have what everyone said that i should have, a woman to love. To make a life with.

In the end I am happy she felt the religious differences were too great. For now i am with someone that I have been together with for over 11 years. He and I can not be happier. many friends (gay and straight) think that we sound like we have been together for 30+ years. We love that comment. It shows that we are in love with each other despite short comings.

For us it is not a lifestyle. "Goth", "Punk", and others are a lifestyle. I think we show that it is a biological choice....

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by Opteron
Counterfit I'll take that rase and expect a "PM" to arrange the transaction:p Sure, but I just wish I knew which side I was betting on :confused:

Another thing, I am not gay. I also and not Muslim, but I don't like when people around me spread hatred toward Muslims. I have a Muslim friend, and maybe his God is a false God, maybe he is going to burn in Hell, I don't know. But this is America, the supposed land of the free, and he should be free to be who he is. I am not Mexican or Black, but I can't stand the hatred that is spread toward them. I am a white male, and I don't like the hatred that is spread toward us. I just wish everyone would get along, whether we agree or not. My thoughts exactly man :cool:


Now, time to go shoot some Germans in MOH:AA!!



j/k, I'm usually on the side of the Axis :p

[Neserk]

To the original poster: I was taught some similar things when I was growing up. Eventually I ended up in Seminary because (1) I found out through experience that a lot of things I was taught in church was not even remotely true, and (2) I got tired of 5 different authorities telling me 5 different things about what the bible absolutely said. I figured it was time to figure it out on my own. The Best advice I can give you is to find a more liberal church in your area and take your wife there with you and try and join together. They can wean her off this sickness. Which at the very least would include the realization that being gay is not evil. And that a Christian's most important duty is to love all those who are around them.

[Neserk]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
Well, she apparently wants it old fashioned all of a sudden, eh? I've seen pamphlets from some Protestant sects that are quite full of fire and brimstone and "father know best, woman must submit" kind of crap from the Old Testament.

So embrace that.

Tell her the Bible instructs her that it's her duty to obey you without question. Then smack her around a little, just like the Bible would approve of. Then ask her if she's ready to join the 21st century and read a little New Testament instead of select bits of hateful drivel that saturate the Old.

It is actually the NT that is misread as advocating women be submissive, etc. etc.

[Chip NoVaMac]

I am not sure who said it, but won't the Southern Baptists be surprised when they get to Heaven and see God, that they find out she is Black....

[Neserk]

Originally posted by Gus

While it is true that in Chriatian beliefs homosexuality is a sin, that does not mean we hate homosexuals. Gus

I went to a same-sex wedding in a Baptist church. I was invited to another one but was unable to attend. I guess *all* Christians dont' believe homosexuality is a sin, huh?