Israeli/Palestinian conflict: '08/'09 [Archive]

MacDawg

Dec 27, 2008, 08:08 AM

Your title and conclusion is a little misleading in my opinion...

Another report (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081227/D95B2TC00.html)

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Israeli warplanes retaliating for rocket fire from the Gaza Strip pounded dozens of security compounds across the Hamas-ruled territory in unprecedented waves of airstrikes Saturday, killing at least 155 and wounding more than 310 in the single bloodiest day of fighting in recent memory.

But with 200 mortars and rockets raining down on Israel since the truce expired a week ago, and 3,000 since the beginning of the year, according to the military's count, pressure had been mounting in Israel for the military to crush the gunmen.

Woof, Woof - Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 08:18 AM

Dont Hurt Me

Dec 27, 2008, 09:11 AM

They are just getting the terrorists hiding amongst the civilians... honest.
Title of this thread is so lopsided and biased. 1st they have been shooting rockets into Israel for days and days,near 200 and what happens? nothing. Sorry but seems Gaza learn's nothing,time after time after time after time and so the 2,000 year old war continues. If hate is all you love. I hope both sides find Jesus one day because a eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

JW8725

Dec 27, 2008, 09:14 AM

I hope both sides find Jesus one day.

Didn't the jews kill him as well? :p

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 09:19 AM

Title of this thread is so lopsided and biased. 1st they have been shooting rockets into Israel for days and days,near 200 and what happens? nothing. Sorry but seems Gaza learn's nothing,time after time after time after time and so the 2,000 year old war continues. If hate is all you love. I hope both sides find Jesus one day because a eye for a eye leaves everyone blind.

This conflict isn't a week old, DHM. What sources are saying that there have been 200 rockets fired into Israel? The Israeli military who are known for their truthfulness.

One Israeli killed from 200 rockets! 155 killed in 'retaliation'. ******** Israeli *********. I've heard enough of that over the last 20 years. What's really happening is that one side uses stones (and quite often literally using stones. Others have decades old rifles) and the other has the might of a nuclear armed super power, backed by a hyper power.

Do I condemn the violence by the Palestinians? Yes. Do I understand it? Yes, at least partly.

Dont Hurt Me

Dec 27, 2008, 09:19 AM

Didn't the jews kill him as well? :pYes they did and still doesnt understand the greatest commandments he spoke. Like I said 2,000 years later and what has either side learned? NOTHING!

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 09:25 AM

Using civilians as "cover", if any exist in Gaza, is probably viewed as expendable resources by the Palestinians.

Time to cut the fuel shipments to Gaza again, and let the general populace turn against them, if they will/can.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 09:26 AM

Removed
After es' post any rational comment posted will be met with an anti-Israel/western sediment

skunk

Dec 27, 2008, 09:31 AM

Time to cut the fuel shipments to Gaza again, and let the general populace turn against them, if they will/can.Perhaps we could tell them to hold another election so they can elect the party we want this time. Will they never learn the meaning of democracy?

remmy

Dec 27, 2008, 09:34 AM

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 09:34 AM

Removed
After es' post any rational comment posted will be met with an anti-Israel/western sediment

Am I not allowed to have an opinion? An opinion forged over years of interest in the subject?

Why can't you just post what you'd said and then defend the position?

skunk

Dec 27, 2008, 09:35 AM

an anti-Israel/western sedimentFreudian slip?

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 09:36 AM

Freudian slip?

:D

Dont Hurt Me

Dec 27, 2008, 09:41 AM

Does anyone really ever think the Palestinian's will allow Israel to simply exist?
The religions of the area doesnt teach turn the cheek or live and let live it teaches something very different hence the never ending conflict.
Here is an idea, remove the Tanakh and all the Qurans and replace them only with the new testaments, put in a army from the U.N. to keep peace and perhaps in another 1,000 years both sides will get it.......

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 09:48 AM

Does anyone really ever think the Palestinian's will allow Israel to simply exist?

Those nasty Palestinians. They are denying Israel land. THE BASTARDS.

That's the whole story, isn't it? I've not missed anything?

Here is an idea, remove the Tanakh and all the Qurans and replace them only with the new testaments

Which Bible do George W. Bush, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Richard Nixon and George Bush all read?

Dont Hurt Me

Dec 27, 2008, 09:52 AM

Yep, sounds like the past 2,000 years. It takes two to Tango.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 09:53 AM

Am I not allowed to have an opinion? An opinion forged over years of interest in the subject?

Why can't you just post what you'd said and then defend the position?

The only position I have is if you throw 200 rocks at someone and they throw 12 bigger rocks back well it is what it is.

I never stated you are not entitled to your opinion or position but leaving out the fact that there were over 200 rockets were hurled shows your position on the matter, not your willingness to openly discuss the events at hand.

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 09:55 AM

And the world just sits and watches :mad:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Gaza-Compounds-Attacked-By-Israeli-Airstrikes---Many-Casualties/Article/200812415194411?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15194411_Gaza_Compounds_Attacked_By_Israeli_Airstrikes_-_Many_Casualties

I'm just gonna fire rockets at your house every day. EVERY DAY. Tons of rockets. They may or may not destroy stuff, may or may not hit your family, but that's irrelevant. I'm going to do it every day and guess what — the world will stay silent!

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 09:58 AM

I'm just gonna fire rockets at your house every day. EVERY DAY. Tons of rockets. They may or may not destroy stuff, may or may not hit your family, but that's irrelevant. I'm going to do it every day and guess what — the world will stay silent!

Oh boy, can Scotland get in on this?? :rolleyes:

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 09:58 AM

For every single American in here that complains that Israel deserves what it's getting for "occupying" land, I only have ONE request.

YOU, the American, MUST give up your home and land and give it back to the Native Americans RIGHT NOW.

What? You're not willing to do that? Why not? You're asking Israel to do it, but you won't get off your lazy butt and give land that is RIGHTFULLY the Native Americans back to them. The British did not come over here peacefully. They tried to "civilize" the Indians.

In Israel, they fought for survival and won or do you simply forget about the part where Palestinians GAVE UP THEIR HOMES with the promise from other Arab nations that the Jews would simply be driven into the sea?

People LOVE to re-write history for their own gain.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 09:59 AM

but leaving out the fact that there were over 200 rockets

It isn't a fact. It comes from the Israeli military, well known for making up stories/excuses for slaughtering innocent people.

were hurled shows your position on the matter, not your willingness to openly discuss the events at hand.

Your willingness to swallow the well known liars of the Israeli military shows that you want to go blindly supporting one side.

jonnyb

Dec 27, 2008, 10:00 AM

Is killing 195 (including children) with a promise of more intense attacks to come a proportionate response to rockets which have not killed anyone? I don't think it is. Surely a proportionate response is required?

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 10:00 AM

People LOVE to re-write history for their own gain.

Yeah, you by the look of it.

Dont Hurt Me

Dec 27, 2008, 10:02 AM

Now we are ignoring rockets into Israel? what next? Why dont we just Nuke the entire region end of story and Nuke North Korea why we are at it,maybe Somalia too. There all the problem areas are solved.:)

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 10:04 AM

I haven't re-written anything. People are hypocrites. America was "founded" by simply uprooting its native people. And no, I'm not a Native American.

I'm simply pointing out that Americans should **** when it comes to the Israeli situation. While Israelis aren't perfect, they certainly aren't looking for civilians to gun down ON PURPOSE, whereas Arabs have absolutely no problem blowing up buses, night clubs, driving forklifts into cars, etc.

Sorry, I have no sympathy for people that cannot reign in their own terrorists, or worse, WON'T reign in their own terrorists.

Now we are ignoring rockets into Israel? what next? Why dont we just Nuke the entire region end of story and Nuke North Korea why we are at it,maybe Somalia too. There all the problem areas are solved.:)

Thank you. WHY ARE PEOPLE IGNORING THE RAINING OF ROCKETS ON CIVILIANS EVERY SINGLE DAY???????

I'm sorry. The world was silent during WW2 and it's silent again while rockets rain on Jews. It seems, to me, that the world will finally not be silent when the Jews finally are gone.

Dont Hurt Me

Dec 27, 2008, 10:06 AM

You need to stop with the stereotype of America dude, most in the U.S. support Israel.:rolleyes:

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 10:10 AM

I AM American. I'm pointing out the biggest flaw in an American opinion about calling Israel an occupier.

I also noticed that es' point-of-view is that of an Arab. The Arabs would have you believe that Israel is killing Palestinian "innocents" and making up stories to cover everything up, yet Palestinians killing Jews is "fighting for their land" and is considered perfectly acceptable.

Amazing how people will justify what Palestinians do.

Dont Hurt Me

Dec 27, 2008, 10:15 AM

Arabs own our politicians, just look at the Bush family or the Clintons. Arabs have poored millions into these two.

The U.S. people for the most part are christian meaning they support the King of the Jews, Christ and his people the Jews.:D edit and should support everyone love they neighbor as yourself.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 10:15 AM

It isn't a fact. It comes from the Israeli military, well known for making up stories/excuses for slaughtering innocent people.

Your willingness to swallow the well known liars of the Israeli military shows that you want to go blindly supporting one side.

I will concede there are victims and aggressors. How the two are defined is up to the individual.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 10:16 AM

Amazing how people will justify what Palestinians do.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g158/MouseMeat/Smilies/cid_001501c6bc1512e1a2706400a8c0Plu.gif

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 10:17 AM

WHY ARE PEOPLE IGNORING THE RAINING OF ROCKETS ON CIVILIANS EVERY SINGLE DAY???????

Because it's either grossly over-exaggerated or it's just not true.

The world was silent during WW2

Yeah. Sure was. We let it happen.

Something tells me you might not be talking for a very neutral position on this one. It's only so long before somebody (probably me) gets called an anti-semite.

sharp65

Dec 27, 2008, 10:19 AM

Because it's not true.

Yeah. Sure was. We let it happen.

Something tells me you might not be talking for a very neutral position on this one. It's only so long before somebody (probably me) gets called an anti-semite.

It's not true?? Wow, how ignorant can one person be? You obviously are quite the troubled one. The title of this thread couldn't be more lopsided.

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 10:21 AM

Because it's not true.
Yeah. Sure was. We let it happen.

Something tells me you might not be talking for a very neutral position on this one. It's only so long before somebody (probably me) gets called an anti-semite.

Of course it's true. Hamas doesn't even deny the daily barrage of rockets, yet YOU do.

Wait, wait, wait. 155+ dead? WHERE ARE THE ISRAELIS DANCING IN THE STREETS HANDING OUT SWEETS FOR THE KILLING OF PALESTINIANS?

Right. Only Arabs do that, when they kill and injure scores of Jews.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 10:21 AM

It's not true?? Wow, how ignorant can one person be?

I'm sure we're about to find out. The people lapping up the word of the Israeli military are more naive than ignorant.

Have you ever been to the region yourself? Have you ever seen these things for yourself? Ignorance is right.

Of course it's true. Hamas doesn't even deny the daily barrage of rockets, yet YOU do.

They don't deny that rockets have been fired in retaliation. You chose to believe that it's 'raining down rockets every day' - clearly not true, or vastly exaggerated.

I don't deny rockets are fired, I do deny what you said - different things.

AGAIN: I condemn attacks from Palestinians on innocent Israeli civilians.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 10:25 AM

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 10:27 AM

They don't deny that rockets have been fired in retaliation. You chose to believe that it's 'raining down rockets every day' - clearly not true, or vastly exaggerated.

I don't deny rockets are fired, I do deny what you said - different things.

AGAIN: I condemn attacks from Palestinians on innocent Israeli civilians.

So, I'm allowed to live next door to you and throw rocks at your house every day. You're not allowed to complain and no matter how much you try to reason with me, I "don't like your kind" and will continue to throw rocks at your house every day.

You let your neighbors know and you call the cops, but they all tell you to show restraint. Thanks for showing restraint, because I still have more rocks to throw at you.

Apparently, that kind of thinking is perfectly acceptable to you.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 10:32 AM

So, I'm allowed to live next door to you and throw rocks at your house every day.

I'm fairly sure that this conflict wasn't started this week with the death of one Israeli.

Apparently, that kind of thinking is perfectly acceptable to you.

No, this kind of thinking covers over the hideous crimes committed against Palestinians. It covers up the fact that Palestinians live in refuge camps with deads to houses in their hands and can see other people living in their housed. It covers up sabra and shatila. It covers up decades of occupation. All of which seems acceptable to you.

Anyway, talking to a Jew, especially an American Jew, on a forum about this subject is impossible. The format doesn't allow for proper debate.

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 10:38 AM

Sorry, és, but you talk and think like an Arab. You blame the entire situation on Israel, when in fact, Palestinians have caused more innocent casualties by always blowing up civilians in non-military areas (and justifying it). Then, to make matters worse, the terrorists - COWARDS - hide with Palestinian civilians. So, everybody gets killed when attacked. That, too, is the fault of the Palestinian.

This is my last post on the topic and I remind everyone - especially és - yet again:

WHERE ARE THE ISRAELIS DANCING IN THE STREETS HANDING OUT SWEETS TO CHILDREN FOR THE KILLING OF PALESTINIANS?

Right. Only Arabs do that, when they kill and injure scores of Jews on buses, malls, nightclubs, etc.

MBX

Dec 27, 2008, 10:42 AM

"...when everybody is fighting for their promised land..."

It seems we'll not get peace on this planet unless we wipe out all the souls stuck in old religious dogmas and who take thousand-year old mythologies literal.

This cat & mouse fight over there will just never end.

I condemn both: Israel & Hamas

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 10:43 AM

Sorry, és, but you talk and think like an Arab.

Oh dear.

You blame the entire situation on Israel

Hard not to, considering what has happened. However, I did no such thing.

Palestinians have caused more innocent casualties .

Can you back that up?

by always blowing up civilians in non-military areas (and justifying it)

You've got to be kidding me! In retaliation for 1 dead Israeli the Israeli military has just killed 155 people with that exact excuse. Open your eyes!

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 10:48 AM

Don't get sucked in.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 11:07 AM

And by the way, I've not seen Either 'sharp65' or 'deputy_doofy' condemn this act.

skunk

Dec 27, 2008, 11:13 AM

And by the way, I've not seen Either 'sharp65' or 'deputy_doofy' condemn this act.Don't hold your breath.

Rodimus Prime

Dec 27, 2008, 11:21 AM

Thank you. WHY ARE PEOPLE IGNORING THE RAINING OF ROCKETS ON CIVILIANS EVERY SINGLE DAY???????

I'm sorry. The world was silent during WW2 and it's silent again while rockets rain on Jews. It seems, to me, that the world will finally not be silent when the Jews finally are gone.

To answer your first question it because it does not sell. This is another yet prime example of how little the media cares about the truth.

They leave out a very key piece of information to sell more papers.

It is a sad that we can not longer trust our media because all they do is spite out lies and half truths.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 11:49 AM

Don't hold your breath.

If I can keep my heart beating that long, I'll be happy ;)

I've got to hand it to Sky News - a source I've attacked in the past - they have just had a very good debate about this. The interviewer had a hard job doing anything other than agreeing with the Palestinian argument. I know that must hurt the owner of the network.

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 12:04 PM

To answer your first question it because it does not sell. This is another yet prime example of how little the media cares about the truth.

They leave out a very key piece of information to sell more papers.

It is a sad that we can not longer trust our media because all they do is spite out lies and half truths.

And by the way, I've not seen Either 'sharp65' or 'deputy_doofy' condemn this act.

Looks like I'm breaking silence...

And I've yet to see you answer my statement...

WHERE ARE THE ISRAELIS DANCING IN THE STREETS HANDING OUT SWEETS TO CHILDREN FOR THE KILLING OF PALESTINIANS?

Right. Only Arabs do that, when they kill and injure scores of Jews on buses, malls, nightclubs, etc.

I haven't heard you answer that.

I haven't really heard anything from you that truly condemns the killing of Israeli civilians. I haven't heard anything from you to answer why Arabs in all Arab countries dance in the streets at the news of dead Jews. All I hear is how you blame everything on the Israelis.

I don't condemn the Israelis here at all.

leekohler

Dec 27, 2008, 12:07 PM

Looks like I'm breaking silence...

And I've yet to see you answer my statement...

WHERE ARE THE ISRAELIS DANCING IN THE STREETS HANDING OUT SWEETS TO CHILDREN FOR THE KILLING OF PALESTINIANS?

Right. Only Arabs do that, when they kill and injure scores of Jews on buses, malls, nightclubs, etc.

I haven't heard you answer that.

I haven't really heard anything from you that truly condemns the killing of Israeli civilians. I haven't heard anything from you to answer why Arabs in all Arab countries dance in the streets at the news of dead Jews. All I hear is how you blame everything on the Israelis.

I don't condemn the Israelis here at all.

What??!!! So no blame should be placed on Israel for anything? Are you kidding me? Do you even know what has happened over there?

And quit yelling. It makes you look like a spoiled infant.

IJ Reilly

Dec 27, 2008, 12:12 PM

This topic can't be discussed rationally here. The forum inevitably turns into a microcosm of the Middle East, with each side resorting to emotional arguments backed up by their own versions of history, blame, entitlement and grievance. It's as endless as it is pointless.

Probably the only fact really worth knowing at the moment is that a state of war exists between Israel and Hamas. As with all states of war, ugly things are occurring every day. And as with all other states of war, the end is either (1) a victory by one side, or (2) a negotiated end to the conflict. Since (1) is unlikely to happen, (2) is the only solution. At least it's the only solution in which people stop dying.

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 12:14 PM

Look, I actually support the 2-state solution over there. I'd like to see an Israel/Palestine solution, but that means 2 things:
- Israel needs to stop posting new settlements
- Palestinians need to STOP the violence.

If Palestinians wanted to make a point, let them attack soldiers. They don't do that. They attack civilians and do so on purpose. They pack their bombs with nails and other metal objects to make sure they do as much damage as possible to people. They continually voice how Israel will need more bodybags.

Guess what? The USA used a "disproportionate" amount of force against Japan and it ENDED THE F'IN WAR!

I don't believe in Genocide. I'd like to see Israel and its neighbors live peacefully, but that will never happen as long as Islamic fundamentalists control the region. Islamic fundamentalists believe that Jews should be subservient and/or dead. There is no reasoning with them.

Demosthenes X

Dec 27, 2008, 12:14 PM

So, I'm allowed to live next door to you and throw rocks at your house every day. You're not allowed to complain and no matter how much you try to reason with me, I "don't like your kind" and will continue to throw rocks at your house every day.

You let your neighbors know and you call the cops, but they all tell you to show restraint. Thanks for showing restraint, because I still have more rocks to throw at you.

So, by your logic, the correct response would be for your neighbor to slaughter you. And your entire family. And your friends. And 200 other people.

I don't think anyone is arguing that what Hamas has been doing is right. What the argument is about is the extent of the Israeli response. I'm sorry, but the correct response to a series of rocket attacks is not mass murder. Yes, Hamas' actions deserve a response. But they deserve a measured, appropriate response, not the indiscriminate bombing of an entire area.

Israel grossly overreacted, but that's par for the course for them, I guess.

As for this:

WHERE ARE THE ISRAELIS DANCING IN THE STREETS HANDING OUT SWEETS TO CHILDREN FOR THE KILLING OF PALESTINIANS?

Right. Only Arabs do that, when they kill and injure scores of Jews on buses, malls, nightclubs, etc.

What a blindly racist comment. Not all Arabs are Western-hating, flag-burning terrorists. Yet you happily paint them all with the same brush. This is disgusting.

The simple fact of the matter in the Israel-Palestine conflict is, neither side is 100% right. Anyone who thinks "their side" can do no evil is deluding themselves.

Nadav

Dec 27, 2008, 12:26 PM

I am an Israeli, and will be in the Israeli Army in just a few years, so I just might be biased.

Many of you say that Israel has overreacted, killing 200 people over one Israeli death. I want to know how you would deal with the situation. Would you fire rockets back at the Palestinians to make it fair? Israel obviously has greater weapons than the Palestinians do, and I don't understand why it is wrong to use a better weapon if you can. The Israeli Army doesn't want to kill the innocent civilians in Palestine, but the terrorists hide behind them. The civilians mean nothing to them, and the terrorists use them as shields. Sadly, when terrorists die, so do many innocent people, but there is no other way to kill these terrorists.

If there is a better way of reacting, please let me know. Many of you blame Israel for doing the "wrong" thing, please explain what is the "right" thing.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 12:33 PM

Looks like I'm breaking silence...

Yeah, like a loud fart in Church.

And I've yet to see you answer my statement...

What am I meant to answer. You seemed to answer your own statement. If you think that this is can be bought down to if a very tiny percentage of people dance after killing sombody or not, then you don't understand the situation there.

You clearly have a problem with Arabs. Something you need to look at.

I haven't really heard anything from you that truly condemns the killing of Israeli civilians.

Well, let me remind you of the things I've said in this thread.

Do I condemn the violence by the Palestinians? Yes. Do I understand it? Yes, at least partly.

AGAIN: I condemn attacks from Palestinians on innocent Israeli civilians.

I don't condemn the Israelis here at all.

Well, that's a shock. Are you glad that innocent people are dying?

How about this question...

Palestinians have caused more innocent casualties .

Can you back that up?

Maybe you should have a look at a few of these (http://ifamericansknew.org/)

The Israeli Army doesn't want to kill the innocent civilians in Palestine, but the terrorists hide behind them.

I've never heard that excuse before.

The civilians mean nothing to them

Or to Israel. I hope you stay safe when you're in the army and I hope you don't do the things we've seen from Isreali forces (you only have to look on sites like youtube and metacafe to see israeli forces knowingly killing innocents). Please, have mercy when you see children and innocents.

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 12:45 PM

Yeah, like a loud fart in Church.

What am I meant to answer. You seemed to answer your own statement. If you think that this is can be bought down to if a very tiny percentage of people dance after killing sombody or not, then you don't understand the situation there.

You clearly have a problem with Arabs. Something you need to look at.

Well, let me remind you of the things I've said in this thread.

Well, that's a shock. Are you glad that innocent people are dying?

How about this question...

Maybe you should have a look at a few of these (http://ifamericansknew.org/)

I've never heard that excuse before.

Or to Israel. I hope you stay safe when you're in the army and I hope you don't do the things we've seen from Isreali forces (you only have to look on sites like youtube and metacafe to see israeli forces knowingly killing innocents). Please, have mercy when you see children and innocents.

I'm not glad innocent people are dying on either side. However, when your "army" hides behind civilians, what do you think will happen? Civilians will be unfortunate casualties. At least the civilians have been warned days in advance to get out. They choose not to, for whatever reason.

I don't see any suicide bomber giving Israeli civilians a second's notice to run. In fact, they TRY to get a high casualty count.

Look, I shouldn't bash Arabs, since I have no beef with them. Unfortunately, it seems that the moderate ones are generally silent or silenced by the Islamic terrorists.

I'm guessing this murder was an accident, according to Palestinians...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shalhevet_Pass

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 12:48 PM

Look, I shouldn't bash Arabs, since I have no beef with them.

Yeah, you've made that clear.

Thanks for answering my questions. Not.

Nadav

Dec 27, 2008, 12:49 PM

Yeah, you've made that clear.

Thanks for answering my questions. Not.

Thanks for answering my questions. Not.

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 12:51 PM

Yeah, you've made that clear.

Thanks for answering my questions. Not.

You don't answer my questions either. You spew Palestinian-propaganda.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 12:51 PM

Thanks for answering my questions. Not.

The answer to your one question (Would you fire rockets back at the Palestinians to make it fair?) is no. I thought it was rhetorical.

You don't answer my questions either. You spew Palestinian-propaganda.

Either back your statements up or shut up.

Ugg

Dec 27, 2008, 12:53 PM

I find it troubling that both sides have escalated their attacks at this point in time. Personally, I think they're taking advantage of a lame duck US president.

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 12:55 PM

Thanks for answering my questions. Not.

He won't answer you, Nadav. He can only spew propaganda.

The reality is, if Civilian A lets Terrorist B use his house as a launching point, Civilian A is now Terrorist A, and his house is fair-game as a place to destroy to stop the launches. Terrorist A then goes on TV to cry that he is only Civilian A and the "evil Israeli army" attacked his home without provocation.

I

MBX

Dec 27, 2008, 12:56 PM

http://www.ifilmdb.com/Crunchyroll/Pictures/ArguingOnTheInternet-Special%20Olympics.jpg

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 12:56 PM

He won't answer you, Nadav. He can only spew propaganda.

Back this up or shut up.

deputy_doofy

Dec 27, 2008, 12:57 PM

The answer to your one question (Would you fire rockets back at the Palestinians to make it fair?) is no. I thought it was rhetorical.

Interesting. If your answer is "no" - simply firing the same rockets back and having the same chances of civlian casualty - WHY is it "no"?

Right, again. It's only a fair fight when Jews die. I keep forgetting the lessons of WW2...

Back this up or shut up.

I've no need to shut-up. You've said nothing of substance.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 12:59 PM

Interesting. If your answer is "no" - simply firing the same rockets back and having the same chances of civlian casualty - WHY is it "no"?

Because I don't support killing. It really is that simple. I don't support any rockets - no matter who fires them.

Right, again. It's only a fair fight when Jews die.

You put these vile words into my mouth again and I'm going to be seriously annoyed.

IJ Reilly

Dec 27, 2008, 01:00 PM

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 01:02 PM

I've no need to shut-up. You've said nothing of substance.

Back up your propaganda and lies about Palestinians killing more civilians or shut up. It's really simple. I've provided you with a link, with sources, that clearly shows you're a liar. Either back up what you've said or shut up.

I know you don't deal with facts, I know you've not been there to smell the death for yourself and I know you're not very clued up outside the 'Jews FTW' argument but you need to back up what you've said - I've done it. Now it's your turn.

leekohler

Dec 27, 2008, 01:03 PM

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 01:03 PM

and probably don't even know anyone who lives there.

I hope you're not including me in that.

virtually guaranteeing that no solution will ever be found.

No justice; no peace.

IJ Reilly

Dec 27, 2008, 01:13 PM

It's emotional because it affects far more than just Palestine or Israel.

That doesn't work for me. We see conflicts of much greater magnitude in the world all the time, where far more people are displaced, starved, killed; where these conflicts spread into neighboring countries, sparking regional wars and widespread misery. But none of them ever seem to achieve the emotional weight of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. In this one, people who don't live there and have little or no stake in the outcome feel it is perfectly legitimate to argue in the same fierce and uncompromising terms as people who do live there and do have a stake in the outcome. No wonder the solutions are so difficult to find.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 01:15 PM

. We see conflicts of much greater magnitude in the world all the time

I really think you're underestimating the importance of the middle east here.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 01:28 PM

northy124

Dec 27, 2008, 01:29 PM

I have to say this title is incorrect as the Palestinians fired rockets into Israel a couple of days ago (I think it was a couple of days ago), I shan't go on as my view is in support of Israel.

leekohler

Dec 27, 2008, 01:29 PM

I really think you're underestimating the importance of the middle east here.

Agreed. But I don't know if there will ever be a solution either.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 01:31 PM

Agreed. But I don't know if there will ever be a solution either.

Again, no justice; no peace.

Both sides of the equation need to take their head out of the sand because both sides are going to give something up. I know the Palestinians already have, but we need to go from here - the situation it's in.

Tony Blair is on the case... Oh.

Surely

Dec 27, 2008, 01:42 PM

I have to say this title is incorrect as the Palestinians fired rockets into Israel a couple of days ago (I think it was a couple of days ago), I shan't go on as my view is in support of Israel.

Hamas militants fired more than 65 rockets into southern Israel on Wednesday.

IJ Reilly

Dec 27, 2008, 01:47 PM

Of greater importantance than more deaths in Africa?

Pray tell us why??

Israel holds no oil, just religious artefacts. I won't include culture, because African cultures are at risk as well. A unique ethnic group?? Same answer.

It's more important because we make it more important. It's also far more intellectually deadly because we're expected to sign up for the point of view of one side or the other, and then chant from the prepared scripts, while we hold our hands tightly over our ears. The remarkable thing is how many people who aren't even connected to the conflict in any direct way are prepared (if not anxious!) to actively participate in this black hole of rational thinking.

northy124

Dec 27, 2008, 01:48 PM

Hamas militants fired more than 65 rockets into southern Israel on Wednesday.
Thanks I thought it was a couple of days ago :)

obeygiant

Dec 27, 2008, 01:54 PM

Thanks I thought it was a couple of days ago :)

Right during Hanukkah and on Christmas Eve. How considerate of them.

leekohler

Dec 27, 2008, 01:56 PM

It's more important because we make it more important. It's also far more intellectually deadly because we're expected to sign up for the point of view of one side or the other, and then chant from the prepared scripts, while we hold our hands tightly over our ears. The remarkable thing is how many people who aren't even connected to the conflict in any direct way are prepared (if not anxious!) to actively participate in this black hole of rational thinking.

Do you have an opinion on the situation? Or just an opinion over the arguing of the situation?

BengalDuck

Dec 27, 2008, 01:57 PM

Again, no justice; no peace.

Both sides of the equation need to take their head out of the sand because both sides are going to give something up. I know the Palestinians already have, but we need to go from here - the situation it's in.

Tony Blair is on the case... Oh.

lol

Didn't Israel just concede the Gaza Strip? As the Palestinians ran in to burn the synagogues.

Arafat turned down what would be 90% of the West Bank. It was clear then, just as it is still clear now, that Palestinians do not wish peace. They wish the death and destruction of their mortal enemy, the Israelites.

I do not wish peace and prosperity on those who wish others death. So I personally have no problem with the Israelis replying with bullets to rocks.

This conflict will never end, because one half of the conflict does not acknowledge the state of the other.e

leekohler

Dec 27, 2008, 01:58 PM

lol

Didn't Israel just concede the Gaza Strip? As the Palestinians ran in to burn the synagogues.

Arafat turned down what would be 90% of the West Bank. It was clear then, just as it is still clear now, that Palestinians do not wish peace. They wish the death and destruction of their mortal enemy, the Israelites.

I do not wish peace and prosperity on those who wish others death. So I personally have no problem with the Israelis replying with bullets to rocks.

This conflict will never end, because one half of the conflict does not acknowledge the state of the other.e

It takes two to tango- there are problems on both sides.

Surely

Dec 27, 2008, 02:04 PM

It takes two to tango-

I never liked that phrase and don't think that it applies here.

there are problems on both sides.

This I can agree with.

IJ Reilly

Dec 27, 2008, 02:11 PM

Do you have an opinion on the situation? Or just an opinion over the arguing of the situation?

I'm not going to choose sides, if that's what you mean. Unfortunately the second half of your question is the only important one right now. Nothing useful can happen until the sides can at least agree to stop reading from the old scripts. If they can't do that, then no solutions are possible, and certainly our opinions about what should be done are meaningless. My suggestion is that we who are not directly involved with the conflict should be the first to dump the scripts. If we can't do that, then we should have no expectation that the Israelis and the Palestinians will.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 02:13 PM

lol

I presume by the bolding that you find the statement 'I know the Palestinians already have' a funny statement?

http://buntnessel.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/slowmogenocidebmp.jpg

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 02:18 PM

http://www.ifilmdb.com/Crunchyroll/Pictures/ArguingOnTheInternet-Special%20Olympics.jpg

OMG!!! Not sure whether I should LMAO or shake my head in disgust :eek:

Macky-Mac

Dec 27, 2008, 02:56 PM

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 02:59 PM

so what is your solution? why don't you tell us what you think is a reasonable solution? then perhaps people here could discuss the merits of your plan instead of all this name calling

You want a full fledged peace plan - me to solve the problems in the middle east - on macrumours forum. Not going to happen, Macky. Sorry.

I guess I'd write something if there was a thread on it, but in this thread - not a chance.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 03:02 PM

so what is your solution? why don't you tell us what you think is a reasonable solution? then perhaps people here could discuss the merits of your plan instead of all this name calling

My persnal take on this is there has been many opportunities for a solution. But that would put many, I guess, Hamas leaders out of a job.

IJ Reilly

Dec 27, 2008, 03:02 PM

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 03:06 PM

You have your answer -- name calling is more satisfying.

Feel free to share your peace plan. It's probably going to have to be around 50 thousands words or more - backed up with sources and evidence. Chop chop.

That could be why I don't want to sit at my computer for 100 hours in a row, just to appease somebody on MR forum. I've got far to much real academic work to do before I do that.

Macky-Mac

Dec 27, 2008, 03:07 PM

You want a full fledged peace plan - me to solve the problems in the middle east - on macrumours forum. Not going to happen, Macky. Sorry.

I guess I'd write something if there was a thread on it, but in this thread - not a chance.

aw come on! surely you can give us a sample of what you think is fair? obviously you've thought about this a lot. Give us an idea to discuss!

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 03:08 PM

We're really making progress now.

It never fails to amaze me how readily the anger generated in the Middle East transfers to people who don't live there, and probably don't even know anyone who lives there. The emotional investment is stunning. Nothing in the world even remotely compares.

People should care what's happening in other parts of the world. We're a global society and even though the lines are blurred by culture and religion, we are all one people. Anytime an innocent person dies, it's an atrocity and it should cause an outcry by the rest of society.

Little wonder then, why the conflict rages on endlessly between the parties who are actually engaged in it. Everybody's following the script to the letter, virtually guaranteeing that no solution will ever be found.

Are you saying by ignoring the events that it would stop?

IJ Reilly

Dec 27, 2008, 03:14 PM

Feel free to share your peace plan. It's probably going to have to be around 50 thousands words or more - backed up with sources and evidence. Chop chop.

That could be why I don't want to sit at my computer for 100 hours in a row, just to appease somebody on MR forum. I've got far to much real academic work to do before I do that.

I'm not asking you or anyone else to share their "peace plan." I am simply suggesting that no plan has a prayer of achieving any degree of success if the sides continue to talk past each other. You and others who put so much energy into waving their banners around, while listening not at all to the other side, are contributing nothing positive.

People should care what's happening in other parts of the world. We're a global society and even though the lines are blurred by culture and religion, we are all one people. Anytime an innocent person dies, it's an atrocity and it should cause an outcry by the rest of society.

Fine, but the world is full of atrocities against humanity. I would challenge you to name one which has absorbed as much energy and produced only more misery.

Are you saying by ignoring the events that it would stop?

Hardly. That's not what I've been saying at all.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 03:23 PM

I am simply suggesting that no plan has a prayer of achieving any degree of success if the sides continue to talk past each other. In case you hadn't noticed, we're not in peace talks. We're in a thread on macrumors.com talking about hundreds of dead civilians. There is no need to come to any compromise when people say that they wont condemn these acts.

You and others who put so much energy into waving their banners around

I'm doing no such thing. I've condemned rocket attacks on Israel and the death of 1 Israeli, I've condemned mass killing by Israel. I'm also not going to sit by when, what appears to be a zionist, starts having a go at Arabs in 'all arab countries'.

while listening not at all to the other side, are contributing nothing positive.

Again, this isn't peace talks. I don't represent either side but I do have a far greater interest than 'banner waving'. Just because I don't fall into the default US 'hail all israel' party line it doesn't mean I'll take your pretentiousness with a pinch of salt. You've offered nothing yourself, nor have you contributed anything positive.

sharp65

Dec 27, 2008, 03:25 PM

Oh the irony..

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 03:28 PM

Fine, but the world is full of atrocities against humanity. I would challenge you to name one which has absorbed as much energy and produced only more misery.

I actually can't think of any that have not been a drain on resources and has ended on a positive note. All modern warfare tends to do nothing but cause misery and rarely reflects the needs of the people. This is a major issue with the human condition. We fight because we think it will fix things, but what has ever actually been fixed? The world governments are perpetually pouring resources into wars and for what purpose? The only beneficiaries are the arms manufacturers. I don't even see a point of drawing lines between conflicts... they're never ending. Here's an even bigger challenge than trying to find a conflict where there has been less resources and misery... try and find a point in human history where there has been no conflicts going on at all. This is a ridiculous fight over land based on religious belief and archaic boundaries... destroy the classical definition of culture and remove money, borders and weaponry and you'll have a solution. Yet this isn't possible... humans are materialistic and childish by nature...

Hardly. That's not what I've been saying at all.

Sorry, I misunderstood the statement... my bad. :p

lamadude

Dec 27, 2008, 03:29 PM

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 03:32 PM

Oh the irony..

Your contribution to this thread has been ****ing marvelous.

Post One: You're ignorant.

Post Two: You're blinded by ignorance.

Post Three: Oh the irony.

In none of the posts have you given any reasoning, thought or anything other than snide remarks.

Anyway... from the Guardian.

Israel stood defiant tonight in the face of mounting international condemnation, as it vowed to continue a massive bombing offensive against key targets in the Gaza Strip that left 205 dead and 700 others injured.

As world leaders called for an immediate end to the biggest air assault on Gaza since 1967, Ehud Barak, the Israeli defence minister, insisted that the retaliation against rocket attacks by Hamas had only just begun. "It won't be easy and it won't be short," said Barak. "There is a time for calm and a time for fighting, and now the time has come to fight."

A flight of Israeli F-16 fighters fired at least 30 missiles during air strikes against Hamas positions in Gaza.

Gordon Brown tonight expressed "deep concern" and urged both sides to exercise restraint, amid signs that tit-for-tat clashes were spiralling out of control. He said the only way to reach a lasting solution was through peaceful means. "I understand the Israeli government's sense of obligation to its population. Israel needs to meet its humanitarian obligations, act in a way to further the long-term vision of a two-state solution, and do everything in its power to avoid civilian casualties," he said.

A White House spokesman said that the United States "urges Israel to avoid civilian casualties as it targets Hamas in Gaza", adding: "Hamas's continued rocket attacks into Israel must cease if the violence is to stop."

Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, who is also president of the EU until the end of the month, demanded "an immediate stop to the firing of rockets on Israel and to the Israeli bombings in Gaza, and calls for all parties to use restraint".

Hamas remained defiant. "Today we are stronger then we've ever been," said Hamas spokesman Taher Nounou. "We won't raise the white flag, we won't give anything up, we won't retreat. We call on the Arab states in the region to take a stance against this massacre and not to be satisfied with just condemnations." Fawzi Barhoum, another spokesman, called the air strikes a "holocaust" and "an act of war".

The attacks, which came days after a ceasefire expired, prompted speculation that Israel might be preparing a full-scale military invasion of Gaza. Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister, said: "Israel wishes to make clear that it will continue to act against terrorist operations and missile fire from the Strip which is intended to harm civilians." Public support for an attack has been growing in Israel, where a recent opinion poll showed that 20% of voters supported reoccupying Gaza, 27% wanted a return to assassinations and 18% wanted a short military strike.

The Arab League, the organisation of leading Arab states, said it was convening an urgent meeting. Egypt announced that it would open its border with Gaza to allow the injured to be treated.

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/dec/27/israelandthepalestinians/Gallery2-9778.jpg

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 03:35 PM

It's true that the Middle East gets a lot more attention than for example The Congo, even though much bigger atrocities are being committed there, but that of course doesn't mean this conflict should be ignored.

Both sides will need to place themselves in each others' position and try to understand the problems the other side is facing or this will never be solved. I'm pretty sure what Israel did this week is pointless as it will only result in more deads, both on Israeli and on Palestine side.

People don't pay attention to the Congo for monetary reasons... they don't have as much of an impact on lining peoples pockets... simple corruption gets people what they want on the African continent. The funny thing is, colonization is one of the major things that destroyed that continent. Eastern Europe and North America are more to blame for the state of that continent than anyone else. Imagine if nobody tried to interfere with the natural progression of that body of land?

This really bothers me.

A White House spokesman said that the United States "urges Israel to avoid civilian casualties as it targets Hamas in Gaza", adding: "Hamas's continued rocket attacks into Israel must cease if the violence is to stop."

Instead of calling for both sides to just stop fighting, they say be careful of hitting civilian targets to Israel and stop shooting altogether to Hamas. The US gov't should really consider the concept of not taking sides in its statements.

is a piece of land really worth this? http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/dec/27/israelandthepalestinians/Gallery2-9778.jpg

skunk

Dec 27, 2008, 03:48 PM

There will be no solution until the grotesque inequalities of opportunity and entitlement between the two nations are dealt with. Despite all the fine words about "two-state solutions", the reality is that the Palestinians are more and more like stir-crazy prisoners within their own tiny and fragmented enclaves, Gaza in particular. 95% of industrial activity in Gaza has been suspended because of import-export restrictions, the number of new company registrations has declined to zero, and outside investment has almost completely ceased for obvious reasons. Even agriculture - difficult enough to keep viable in a region with 4,000 people per square kilometre - is almost impossible with Israeli regulations which restrict crops to no more than 40cm in height. Unless an enormous investment of money and political will is made, the area appears to be doomed, which may of course be the desired outcome in certain quarters.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 03:48 PM

is a piece of land really worth this?

That really is a question for the people of the land. I used to ask the same question about Northern Ireland.

When kids are writing messages on bombs (http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6996/missile22jpg4401jpguc3.jpg) or strapping bombs to themselves in other cases you have to wonder when the cycle is going to stop.

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 03:51 PM

That really is a question for the people of the land. I used to ask the same question about Northern Ireland.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6996/missile22jpg4401jpguc3.jpg

When kids are writing messages on bombs or strapping bombs to themselves in other cases you have to wonder when the cycle is going to stop.

That's one of the most saddening things I have ever seen. We are a society that perpetuates violence and hands down the concept to our children. If we could go one generation where no war is seen anywhere, our children wouldn't know the concept. The human legacy is intolerance, violence and selfishness.

leekohler

Dec 27, 2008, 04:05 PM

I'm not going to choose sides, if that's what you mean. Unfortunately the second half of your question is the only important one right now. Nothing useful can happen until the sides can at least agree to stop reading from the old scripts. If they can't do that, then no solutions are possible, and certainly our opinions about what should be done are meaningless. My suggestion is that we who are not directly involved with the conflict should be the first to dump the scripts. If we can't do that, then we should have no expectation that the Israelis and the Palestinians will.

No- I didn't say choose sides. I simply wanted to know if you had an opinion on the ME conflict. Nothing more, nothing less.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 04:07 PM

"We" have always been Soldier Ants, and, with the Earth's resources in scant supply, it will not get any better in all of our life-times.

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 04:14 PM

"We" have always been Soldier Ants, and, with the Earth's resources in scant supply, it will not get any better in all of our life-times.

And if we keep that mentality as a society it never will get better.

JW8725

Dec 27, 2008, 04:27 PM

That's one of the most saddening things I have ever seen. We are a society that perpetuates violence and hands down the concept to our children. If we could go one generation where no war is seen anywhere, our children wouldn't know the concept. The human legacy is intolerance, violence and selfishness.

That is just sick, how messed up is that. Is it any wonder Iran wants to obliterate Israel?

Dont Hurt Me

Dec 27, 2008, 04:43 PM

Is it no wonder Israel wants to obliterate the Palestinians. I wonder how long it will be before Israel is dancing in the streets everytime someone is killed like they do in the Muslim world? when that happens watch out. Israel has shown some mighty restraint over and over and over. What if next time they say the hell with it lets take out all these guys?
It takes two for war and peace. In war no one wins, just look at the U.S. and Iraq ? Trillion dollars down the drain thousands and thousands dead and what did we get? NOTHING!!Not a G.D. thing.

Schtumple

Dec 27, 2008, 04:46 PM

My friend said this on facebook:

"Gary says Israel? massacres? AGAIN? who'd have thought a Jewish pity state plonked right in the middle east and armed by America could be such a problem?..."

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 04:47 PM

And if we keep that mentality as a society it never will get better.

Ah, but actually acknowledging the problem is the first step to a cure.

"We" still think that we are the (arcane reference follows) bees knees in the Universe.

How the Hell can we get "better" when that kind of thinking is still practised??

JW8725

Dec 27, 2008, 04:51 PM

Sky news reports the bastards have killed 225 now.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israeli-Airstrikes-On-Gaza-Hamas-Leader-Ismail-Haniyeh-Condemns-Ugliest-Massacre/Article/200812415194411?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15194411_Israeli_Airstrikes_On_Gaza%3A_Hamas_Leader_Ismail_Haniyeh_Condemns_Ugliest_Mass acre

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 04:52 PM

That is just sick, how messed up is that. Is it any wonder Iran wants to obliterate Israel?

It's always a wonder to me when one group of people wants to destroy another based on conflicts between political representations of their nation... yes, the people want land as well but if their governments would stop passing on their desire for violence to their people, do you think you would see mass protests to perpetuate the violence? No, I'm sure they would accept a peaceful resolution. People cry to the attackers wondering why they've been attacked... they should cry to their governments to stop the violence... but the gov'ts villainify the opposition to make killing others acceptable.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that pic is from Northern Ireland (or elsewhere) based on the use of the English language on the bombs.

Ah, but actually acknowledging the problem is the first step to a cure.

"We" still think that we are the (arcane reference follows) bees knees in the Universe.

How the Hell can we get "better" when that kind of thinking is still practised??

I think we're the garbage of the universe... but you said it will never change... that is not a step to solving anything. That's accepting our current way of thinking and making things worse. We need to decide it can change in our lifetimes to make a difference.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 05:00 PM

but you said it will never change

I may be approaching old, but if you read back you will see I said, in fact, "in all of our lifetimes".

Changes of this magnitude do not occur over a Generation, a Century or even a Millennium.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 06:01 PM

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 06:04 PM

What bastards you referring to?
The ones hurling rockets or dropping bombs?

The death toll in the sentence that you quoted give that away. If it was 'The bastards have killed one and injured four' then it'd be a different story. 225 and over 700 injured however... That'll be the US backed military superpower with a nuclear arsenal.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 06:09 PM

The death toll in the sentence that you quoted give that away. If it was 'The bastards have killed one and injured four' then it'd be a different story. 225 and over 700 injured however... That'll be the US backed military superpower with a nuclear arsenal.

So you saying that Hamas has horrible aim?
200+ 1 death
30 bombs 200+ deaths

I can agree that there are no winners here. To say one side is wrong and the other is justified is asinine.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 06:11 PM

A measured response is not always possible.

The rockets, coming when they did, indicates to me a Religious connotation.

The cease-fire ended on the 19th. Why so long to stir the pot again??

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 06:12 PM

I may be approaching old, but if you read back you will see I said, in fact, "in all of our lifetimes".

Changes of this magnitude do not occur over a Generation, a Century or even a Millennium.

I would venture they could change. If every generation thinks that way, then it won't happen. Keep saying these things and your kids will hear you say it. Your kids will say these things and there kids will hear it.. an so on.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 06:14 PM

Agreed, but Christ was on this Earth 2,000 years ago.

How is that going, by the way? :rolleyes:

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 06:19 PM

A measured response is not always possible.

The rockets, coming when they did, indicates to me a Religious connotation.

The cease-fire ended on the 19th. Why so long to stir the pot again??

Absolutely, this whole conflict is a religious and historical issue though... what defines the Jewish people and their quest for Israel? Their religion. As far as they're concerned, an invisible man in the sky promised them their land... hence the "promised land". Once again, as I've mentioned in a previous thread... remove religion, and you remove one of the major reasons and driving forces behind war.

Agreed, but Christ was on this Earth 2,000 years ago.

How is that going, by the way? :rolleyes:

I would say apparently Christ was on this earth 2000 years ago. How's that going? Well he's caused lot of problems for someone who may or may not have ever even existed.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 06:26 PM

Compile 'em all

Dec 27, 2008, 06:33 PM

I haven't re-written anything. People are hypocrites. America was "founded" by simply uprooting its native people. And no, I'm not a Native American.

I'm simply pointing out that Americans should **** when it comes to the Israeli situation. While Israelis aren't perfect, they certainly aren't looking for civilians to gun down ON PURPOSE, whereas Arabs have absolutely no problem blowing up buses, night clubs, driving forklifts into cars, etc.

First off, stop making blanket statements about arabs.

Have you ever thought why a person would reach the point that he/she would take their own lives to kill others? Do you know that till this day there is no country called Palestine? Palestinians don't have passports, instead they carry "documents", in their own ********* land. There are about 50/60 UN resolutions israel hasn't complied with, but hey, you won't see that stuff on TV. Ever.

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 06:41 PM

OK, even an Agnostic like me is willing to accept the existence of Jesus, paranormal effects notwithstanding.

I believe the problems already existed, in any event.

His teachings, however reported or muddled by the ages, are not so easily dismissed.

And why not? The closest thing there is to evidence of him existing was the Shroud of Turin which was proved to be fake a couple times already. His teachings? Well I have yet to see any books written by him. In fact, if he was such an important person of his time... why is there NO mention of him in history? NONE! The only mention is from the bible itself... and not until the New Testament which was compliled in the 15th-16th century AD.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 06:43 PM

First off, stop making blanket statements about arabs.

Have you ever thought why a person would reach the point that he/she would take their own lives to kill others? Do you know that till this day there is no country called Palestine? Palestinians don't have passports, instead they carry "documents", in their own ********* land. There are about 50/60 UN resolutions israel hasn't complied with, but hey, you won't see that stuff on TV. Ever.

So in killing others has solved what?

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 06:49 PM

In fact, if he was such an important person of his time... why is there NO mention of him in history? NONE!

Well, for a start, we had the Dark Ages.

And even if He is a myth, what's the harm?? Do you find fault with His raw teachings (excluding political editing)??

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 06:58 PM

Well, for a start, we had the Dark Ages.

And even if He is a myth, what's the harm?? Do you find fault with His raw teachings (excluding political editing)??

Ah the dark ages... a product of the budding of modern Christianity. The world was turned to the true faith at the point of a sword.

Some of it yes, all of it, a resounding no.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 07:04 PM

On the "yes" side is Love Your Neighbour As Yourself (http://www.believers.org/believe/bel208.htm).

What more do you need???

As for "Christianity", well fark that *****.

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 07:09 PM

On the "yes" side is Love Your Neighbour As Yourself (http://www.believers.org/believe/bel208.htm).

What more do you need???

As for "Christianity", well fark that *****.

Amen :p

hehehe

First off, stop making blanket statements about arabs.

Have you ever thought why a person would reach the point that he/she would take their own lives to kill others? Do you know that till this day there is no country called Palestine? Palestinians don't have passports, instead they carry "documents", in their own ********* land. There are about 50/60 UN resolutions israel hasn't complied with, but hey, you won't see that stuff on TV. Ever.

And that's the problem with the North American perspective. Someone always has to be the villain... and with Israel being a US ally, a truly neutral viewpoint can't be achieve without looking into something for yourself... the NA media gives a one sided view. The media is not your friend and in a lot of wartime scenarios, there is no good... only evil... and everyone is a victim.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 07:27 PM

And that's the problem with the North American perspective. Someone always has to be the villain... and with Israel being a US ally, a truly neutral viewpoint can't be achieve without looking into something for yourself... the NA media gives a one sided view. The media is not your friend and in a lot of wartime scenarios, there is no good... only evil... and everyone is a victim.

So the Canadian media is pretty much the same bias as the US media?

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 07:30 PM

So the Canadian media is pretty much the same bias as the US media?

I would say so, to a lesser degree... but only a bit. Canada is so US driven it's mind boggling... we're a nation that could support ourselves with no outside help... but we cave to the US.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 07:31 PM

So the Canadian media is pretty much the same bias as the US media?

Is that where you got your "position" on this matter.

Dear me, what a shame.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 07:41 PM

Is that where you got your "position" on this matter.

Dear me, what a shame.

I beleive my position on this matter is there are no winners.
200+ rockets vs 30 bombs; don't see any winner there.
A family that loses a member grieves their loss. Death knows no religion or race.

MBX

Dec 27, 2008, 07:45 PM

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 07:46 PM

No argument here.

Death begets still more death. It's a matter of attrition, which must be broken at some time if any advance is to be achieved.

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 07:54 PM

Seriously 'm so sick.

We're somewhere on the edge of a huge galaxy with 200+billion stars with possible millions of other civilizations.

And yet we fight each other instead of evolving together to learn more about the universe and other worlds.

That's because fighting is more profitable. :(

My thoughts are with the people along the Gaza strip tonight.

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 07:57 PM

200+ rockets vs 30 bombs; don't see any winner there.

Well, there is the Iraqi military who are cracking up that they've got people to believe the '200 rockets' story. Then there is the Iraqi military who have killed 255 people for every 1 Israeli killed. I see a clear 'winner'.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 08:00 PM

Well, there is the Iraqi military who are cracking up that they've got people to believe the '200 rockets' story. Then there is the Iraqi military who have killed 255 people for every 1 Israeli killed. I see a clear 'winner'.

You see a winner when someone is puposely killed?

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 08:02 PM

You see a winner when someone is puposely killed?

:rolleyes:

You Americans really don't get sarcasm or irony.

Compile 'em all

Dec 27, 2008, 08:05 PM

So in killing others has solved what?

I didn't say killing others solves anything, but taking it out of context is incredibly misleading, and is what the FOX/CNN/SKY does and will continue to do. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UldEpr0HCEU) You don't see on FOX Palestinian homes being destroyed by bulldozers to make room for more Israeli settlements.

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 08:09 PM

I didn't say killing others solves anything, but taking it out of context is incredibly misleading, and is what the FOX/CNN/SKY does and will continue to do. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UldEpr0HCEU) You don't see on FOX Palestinian homes being destroyed by bulldozers to make room for more Israeli settlements.

The vast amount of information available on the internet allows people to get a much better picture of what's going on outside of their world... but they still watch FOX and CNN...

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 08:09 PM

You see a winner when someone is puposely killed?

:rolleyes:

You Americans really don't get sarcasm or irony.

I didn't say killing others solves anything, but taking it out of context is incredibly misleading, and is what the FOX/CNN/SKY does and will continue to do. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UldEpr0HCEU) You don't see on FOX Palestinian homes being destroyed by bulldozers to make room for more Israeli settlements.

not making the connection here. Fox doesn't show the bulldozing so rocket launching and killing is the next step? help me out here please

The vast amount of information available on the internet allows people to get a much better picture of what's going on outside of their world... but they still watch FOX and CNN...

They being?

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 08:12 PM

not making the connection here. Fox doesn't show the bulldozing so rocket launching and killing is the next step? help me out here please

Oh, I didn't know that Fox was owned by a Jew?? :rolleyes:

és:

Dec 27, 2008, 08:13 PM

Oh, I didn't know that Fox was owned by a Jew?? :rolleyes:

Fox is owned by a scumbag. A lying, whoring shitbag.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 08:19 PM

Oh *****, that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch) guy. Sorry. :o

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 08:21 PM

They being?

The vast majority. I'm not stating anyone in particular, but these are the news sources most get there info on world events from. I'm not into picking on one person... don't worry, if I was going to make a direct statement about one person in particular, I would do just that. :p

I'm personally a fan of online university lectures on global politics... they are fantastic a showing both sides of a conflict.

Fox is owned by a scumbag. A lying, whoring shitbag.

Yup, just like all the other major media companies. The media system is polluted and is nothing more than a marketplace for misinformation. That's the problem with ALL of the major media companies being owned by a few select people of like mind to Mr. Murdoch.

bruinsrme

Dec 27, 2008, 08:33 PM

I have to go to bed, 4am has a way of creeping up on ya.
I would like to say, regardless of your beliefs, moral convictions, religions, or opinions it has been a pleasure exchanging comments and sharing a small part of my life with all.

Take care

Scott

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 08:36 PM

mgguy

Dec 27, 2008, 08:41 PM

To be fair, it should be pointed out that Israel also has some terrorism skeleton's in its closet. For example, a terrorist group known as Irgun, an early terrorist group made up of several individuals who later became leaders of Israel, together with the Stern Gang (of which I believe Menachem Begin, former Prime Minister of Israel, was a member), did some pretty nasty things. According to Wikipedia (not always reliable but in this instance I think it provides adequate documentation):

[B][/"Some of the better-known attacks by Irgun were the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (accomplished together with the Stern Gang) on 9 April 1948. In the West, Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times newspaper,[2][3], the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry[4], and prominent world and Jewish figures, such as Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, and many others.[5] Irgun attacks prompted a formal declaration from the World Zionist Congress in 1946, which strongly condemned "the shedding of innocent blood as a means of political warfare".[6]
Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel's right-wing Herut (or "Freedom") party, which led to today's Likud party. Likud has led or been part of most Israeli governments since 1977.

Wikipedia provides several additional pages documenting such atrocities by those fighting for Israel in the early years of its evolution. Israel has the upper hand now in terms of force and control, but earlier when it was fighting for its existence it also resorted to violent acts against civilians to accomplish its purposes.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 08:46 PM

Yes, I, for one, am aware of these "transgressions", but keep in mind they were fighting for their very existence in this World.

Can you honestly blame them?

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 08:48 PM

Perhaps that's why the outrage at Ahmadinejad's Christmas message on Channel 4 in England??

The media wishes to form your/our opinions of the World, and some "renegades" get in the way of this "programming".

How could someone be angered at that message. It's funny how people get upset if the words out of an alleged bad man are words of peace. His view point is being shown from a purely westernized modification that has 100% villainized him, and while some of his actions were not the right ones, he is a man that (for the time and seemingly) has his peoples interests in mind.

mgguy

Dec 27, 2008, 08:49 PM

Yes, I, for one, am aware of these "transgressions", but keep in mind they were fighting for their very existence in this World.

Can you honestly blame them?

Might the same be said of the Palistinians?

sporadicMotion

Dec 27, 2008, 08:52 PM

Yes, I, for one, am aware of these "transgressions", but keep in mind they were fighting for their very existence in this World.

Can you honestly blame them?

Violence is never excusable. My parents tried to teach me some things as a child, and while I disagree with some of it, two thing always stuck.

"Violence doesn't solve anything" and "two wrongs don't make a right"

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 08:53 PM

Might the same be said of the Palistinians?

True, but are there not Arabs all around them???

Why must Egypt "open" their borders to casualties??

Why not embrace all Palastininians, and offer them refuge?

mgguy

Dec 27, 2008, 09:01 PM

True, but are there not Arabs all around them???

Why must Egypt "open" their borders to casualties??

Why not embrace all Palastininians, and offer them refuge?

Sorry, I don't get what you are saying. Are you suggesting that Israel should embrace all Palestinians too? So far it doesn't seem willing to do that. And it probably never will, since if it did so it would almost certainly not be able to maintain itself as a religious state based on Judaism.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 09:04 PM

Sorry, I don't get what you are saying. Are you suggesting that Israel should embrace all Palestinians too? So far it doesn't seem willing to do that. And it probably never will, since if it did so it would almost certainly not be able to maintain itself as a religious state based on Judaism.

Why must Egypt "open" their borders to casualties??
Why not embrace all Palastininians, and offer them refuge?

The Egyptians, not the Israelis. :confused:

hexonxonx

Dec 27, 2008, 09:04 PM

They are just getting the terrorists hiding amongst the civilians... honest.

True and I support Israel all the way.

Might the same be said of the Palistinians?

The Israelis don't care if the Palestinians exists and they have a right to exist. It is the Palestinians who want to wipe the Israelis off the face of the earth.

iJohnHenry

Dec 27, 2008, 09:08 PM

It always boils down to who's ox is being gored.

Nothing new here. Move along, please.

JW8725

Dec 27, 2008, 09:08 PM

Is it fair to say Israel is terrorising the Palestinians?

IJ Reilly

Dec 27, 2008, 09:23 PM

No- I didn't say choose sides. I simply wanted to know if you had an opinion on the ME conflict. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, and I've stated it. If what I've said several times already isn't opinion enough, then in reality you are asking me to take sides. That's what nearly everybody else does, as witnessed by this thread and every other we've had on this subject in the past.

mgguy

Dec 27, 2008, 09:28 PM

The Egyptians, not the Israelis. :confused:

Why should the Egyptians offer Palestinians refuge? How are they responsible for this situation? Israel should give more ground (literally and figuratively speaking) than they are currently willing to do. As long as it is a religious state, it will never yield to the Palestinian's demands for inclusion and the right to vote because that would be the demise of the state based on Judaism.

Surely

Dec 27, 2008, 09:29 PM

Is it fair to say Israel is terrorising the Palestinians?

No. It is not.

Delta608

Dec 27, 2008, 10:03 PM

Is it fair to say Israel is terrorising the Palestinians?

No its not.....nice try...

Why should the Egyptians offer Palestinians refuge? How are they responsible for this situation? Israel should give more ground (literally and figuratively speaking) than they are currently willing to do. As long as it is a religious state, it will never yield to the Palestinian's demands for inclusion and the right to vote because that would be the demise of the state based on Judaism.

Moshe Dyan warned his Generals in 1967 NOT to take Gaza from the Egyptians as they would inherit a rats nest which Egypt would not take back..BTW Israel is a representative democracy with a parliamentary system not based on Judaism..Arabs have more rights in Israel than in their home countries..Not to mention there is no such thing as a Palestinian as most in Gaza are (were) Egyptians...
An AR-15 in Gaza cost as much as it takes to feed a family of eleven for a month in Gaza, with an un employment rate that is off the scale, one wonder how these weapons are even attainable not to mention the ammunition...or rockets...Dont kid yourself, thread starter at least hate for the right reason...

EV0LUTION

Dec 27, 2008, 10:45 PM

Here is an idea, remove the Tanakh and all the Qurans and replace them only with the new testaments

How about we remove religion entirely. That should stop half of the world's conflicts.

synth3tik

Dec 27, 2008, 10:46 PM

How about we remove religion entirely. That should stop half of the world's conflicts.

Then you open the worlds biggest conflict, to re-establish religion.

mgguy

Dec 27, 2008, 11:32 PM

BTW Israel is a representative democracy with a parliamentary system not based on Judaism..

The Law of Return passed by the Israel Parliament in 1950 and the Nationality Law of 1952 grant special rights to Jews that are not afforded to other residents. The law gives the right of return and citizen status to those born Jews (having a Jewish mother or grandmother), those with Jewish ancestry (having a Jewish father or grandfather) and converts to Judaism (Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative denominations— not secular — though Reform and Conservative conversions must take place outside the state, similar to civil marriages). So I think it is fair to say that Israel is a state based on Judaism.

leekohler

Dec 27, 2008, 11:35 PM

Yes, and I've stated it. If what I've said several times already isn't opinion enough, then in reality you are asking me to take sides. That's what nearly everybody else does, as witnessed by this thread and every other we've had on this subject in the past.

Really? All I've seen you do is criticize others for their positions. And I most certainly am not asking to to take a side. I want to know, other than your obvious contempt for what others think, is your opinion on the conflict, its causes, etc.

IJ Reilly

Dec 28, 2008, 12:07 AM

Really? All I've seen you do is criticize others for their positions. And I most certainly am not asking to to take a side. I want to know, other than your obvious contempt for what others think, is your opinion on the conflict, its causes, etc.

Please reread what I have already written. I have not shown contempt for anyone or their positions, though certainly others here have. If you can find a place where I have, please point it out.

yg17

Dec 28, 2008, 12:09 AM

Here is an idea, remove the Tanakh and all the Qurans and replace them only with the new testaments

Great idea! Because Christians have never killed in the name of religion! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_crusades)

yamabushi

Dec 28, 2008, 12:15 AM

Is it fair to say Israel is terrorising the Palestinians?

No. Hamas runs the government. Hamas supports terrorism in their controlled area. Israel is attacked with rockets and mortars from their area. This constitutes an act of war. Israel is justified in responding by attacking all members of Hamas in that area.

BengalDuck

Dec 28, 2008, 12:31 AM

I presume by the bolding that you find the statement 'I know the Palestinians already have' a funny statement?

http://buntnessel.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/slowmogenocidebmp.jpg

I guess the moral of the story is don't try and kill off an entire state of people and you wouldn't have a threat of losing all of your land?

sporadicMotion

Dec 28, 2008, 01:07 AM

How about we remove religion entirely. That should stop half of the world's conflicts.

plus 1 billion!!!!! Remove borders and money and that'll clear out the rest.

Great idea! Because Christians have never killed in the name of religion! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_crusades)

Why is it that so many people overlook that?

leekohler

Dec 28, 2008, 02:26 AM

Please reread what I have already written. I have not shown contempt for anyone or their positions, though certainly others here have. If you can find a place where I have, please point it out.

This topic can't be discussed rationally here. The forum inevitably turns into a microcosm of the Middle East, with each side resorting to emotional arguments backed up by their own versions of history, blame, entitlement and grievance. It's as endless as it is pointless.
.

The implication here is that no one is capable of discussing this rationally in this forum. I would say that you have dismissed anyone here of being able to discuss this subject rationally. Therefore, I can only assume you have contempt for any opinion on this forum as far as this issue is concerned. I don't see how this can be misconstrued. BTW- not that it really matters, but I'm dating a Jew. He's one of the best people I've ever met-smart, sweet, funny and supportive. But that is no reason to not explore the roots of this conflict. Both sides have plenty of blame to go around. To ignore that out of convenience is completely disingenuous. I can discuss this conflict easily with him. Why can you not express an opinion? I might also add that I'm German. He and I have talked about that too. He's like, " I see that last name. Are you gonna persecute me?" "Well only if you think that would be hot." :)

Here's the bottom line:

Everyone has made mistakes with regards to this conflict. I've heard both sides' opinions several times, and I have to tell you, the Palestinians have gotten the short end of the stick all along. That statement is not intended to defend their actions. They have some serious adjustments to make. However, blowing up the Gaza strip to prove a point also helps no one. It only feeds the fire, as do our actions in Iraq as well as our lack of action in Afghanistan. How in the hell are we supposed to gain trust with the Arab world when we are destroying their culture as well as their countries? Afghanistan and Iraq were at one time both, paradise. This struggle is bigger than Israel and Palestine. Iraq was also a relatively friendly place to western values until we went in and destroyed it. IJ, what are Arabs supposed to think of us at this point? We have proven ourselves completely untrustworthy.

Agathon

Dec 28, 2008, 03:47 AM

Yes, I, for one, am aware of these "transgressions", but keep in mind they were fighting for their very existence in this World.

Can you honestly blame them?

Since they're living on someone else's land, sure.

There is one fact here, and only one fact that is relevant, and that is that the creation of the state of Israel was quite probably the stupidest move made in the history of international relations. If the UN had been properly representative at the time, it would never have happened, and for good reason: it was a monumentally stupid idea that was bound to create a perpetual ethnic and religious conflict. Imagine if the UN had forced the US to give half of Texas to the Armenians, as compensation for what the Turks did. It's not hard to imagine what native Texans would think of that.

The founding of Israel was really, if you look at it, the last gasp of colonialism, made when the bankruptcy of the colonialist ideology had already become apparent. Perhaps it could have been saved after 1967, if the occupation had been short, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

Now it's just a failing state that is sustaining itself by taking truckloads of immigrants from Russia, whilst long standing Israeli citizens get fed up and leave (I've met tons of Israeli emigrants in the last seven or eight years).

This latest episode, along with the second Lebanon war, shows how desperate and irrational things have become. If the Israelis are smart, they'll do a deal while Uncle Sam still has some clout, and Americans are still stupid enough to fall for the endless pro-Israel propaganda their media feeds them (but we are talking about Americans here, so that could be a long time).

I give the place 50 more years before it is overrun or disintegrates, and I reckon that's generous.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 04:20 AM

To be fair, it should be pointed out that Israel also has some terrorism skeleton's in its closet.

No ****!

Israel is considered a terrorist state by many.
True and I support Israel all the way.

Well, unlike you, I don't support the killing of hundreds of innocent men, woman and children.

The Israelis don't care if the Palestinians exists and they have a right to exist. It is the Palestinians who want to wipe the Israelis off the face of the earth.

Let us be clear; the only people getting 'wiped off the face of the earth' are the palestinians.

Is it fair to say Israel is terrorising the Palestinians?

Of course. It was true long before this incident and it'll be true long after.

I guess the moral of the story is don't try and kill off an entire state of people and you wouldn't have a threat of losing all of your land?

You're going to have to clarify your meaning.

Since they're living on someone else's land, sure.

That's hard to disagree with, my friend.

takao

Dec 28, 2008, 07:53 AM

the only possible solution i can imagine is taking away the country from both sides and make it a UN controlled country

seriously neither side deserves it anymore

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 07:56 AM

seriously neither side deserves it anymore

Why don't the Palestinians deserve it?

JW8725

Dec 28, 2008, 08:00 AM

Why don't the Palestinians deserve it?

It belongs to the Palestinians in the first place.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 08:23 AM

It belongs to the Palestinians in the first place.

Exactly, that's why I'm asking why they don't deserve it?

takao

Dec 28, 2008, 08:26 AM

Why don't the Palestinians deserve it?

because of their stupid behaviour over and over again ... just like the israelis

chilipie

Dec 28, 2008, 08:36 AM

because of their stupid behaviour over and over again ... just like the israelis

So neither side deserves it?

skunk

Dec 28, 2008, 08:40 AM

It belongs to the Palestinians in the first place.Well, strictly speaking, quite a lot of it was bought in good faith by Jewish people. This is not about property ownership, it's about political power.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 08:49 AM

because of their stupid behaviour over and over again

Right...

Think I'll stay away from that one.

takao

Dec 28, 2008, 08:49 AM

So neither side deserves it?

yes or do you see Sudeten germans shooting rockets into Bohemia ?

Dont Hurt Me

Dec 28, 2008, 09:51 AM

Great idea! Because Christians have never killed in the name of religion! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_crusades)You miss the point, Jesus never preached hurt anyone. If you look a little closer he preached love your neighbor period. If both sides were taught this little thing for a few generations this would be over. Instead its eye for a eye on both sides and here we are talking about a endless conflict that goes on and on and on. Both sides are warped by stupid religions.

Here in the U.S. we have learned we have more in common then difference hence a black man with a muslim name just elected President!!!!

sporadicMotion

Dec 28, 2008, 10:43 AM

You miss the point, Jesus never preached hurt anyone. If you look a little closer he preached love your neighbor period. If both sides were taught this little thing for a few generations this would be over. Instead its eye for a eye on both sides and here we are talking about a endless conflict that goes on and on and on. Both sides are warped by stupid religions.

Here in the U.S. we have learned we have more in common then difference hence a black man with a muslim name just elected President!!!!

There is a monstrous difference between actions and words. The christian mythology has caused more pain than good... the crusades are the perfect example. They were merely the start of the tyranny and evils the christian faith would create... and to say the Israelis and the Palestinians need to learn this? No. Their faiths teach the exact same thing. Almost all religions in the world are basically the same...

Compile 'em all

Dec 28, 2008, 10:48 AM

You miss the point, Jesus never preached hurt anyone. If you look a little closer he preached love your neighbor period. If both sides were taught this little thing for a few generations this would be over. Instead its eye for a eye on both sides and here we are talking about a endless conflict that goes on and on and on. Both sides are warped by stupid religions.

You know very little about islam but whatever.

This conflict is about occupied land more than anything else. No one is asking that israel to be wiped off the map but at least comply with UN resolutions and give back what you took.

There is extreme lack of knowledge as to why Palestinians are doing this, let alone the origin of this conflict.

IJ Reilly

Dec 28, 2008, 11:26 AM

The implication here is that no one is capable of discussing this rationally in this forum. I would say that you have dismissed anyone here of being able to discuss this subject rationally. Therefore, I can only assume you have contempt for any opinion on this forum as far as this issue is concerned. I don't see how this can be misconstrued.

It is being misconstrued. Is this debate rational and productive, or is it simply a rehash of every angry debate that we've ever seen over this subject? If I've missed something, please feel free to point it out.

For decades we've known the principles on which peace in this region can be founded. And yet, little progress has been made, and in some cases, negative progress. Why? Is it because the debate is mainly rational, thoughtful and productive, or because it's predominately angry and emotional, and counterproductive? What do you think?

I think it's notable the degree to which people who don't live in the Middle East, and have no direct stake in the outcome, have fully adopted the angry and divisive rhetoric of the Middle East -- the very same rhetoric that has produced decades of unresolved conflict. Can you think of another example of this? I've tried and can't come up with one. Do you think this is an insignificant fact?

It also occurs to me that the intensity of this debate outstrips its real importance. On the same front page of my newspaper this morning, along with the top story about over 200 Palestinians being killed in Gaza, was (further down the page) a story about the drug war in Mexico. Do you know (without looking it up) how many Mexicans have been killed in this conflict, in 2008 alone? The answer is over 5,000. This catastrophe is happening right over our border -- and not even by a matter of miles in many cases, but yards. Has anyone posted a thread to debate this issue? If anyone did, would it grow to hundreds of posts in a matter of hours?

So this is not to cast aspersions on anyone -- but just to observe that many of us have invested way too much emotional energy in this particular conflict to see straight. My point is, if you are not part of the solution, you may be part of the problem. It is something to at least consider, don't you think?

Surely

Dec 28, 2008, 11:28 AM

You know very little about islam but whatever.

This conflict is about occupied land more than anything else. No one is asking that israel to be wiped off the map but at least comply with UN resolutions and give back what you took.

There is extreme lack of knowledge as to why Palestinians are doing this, let alone the origin of this conflict.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and others are all asking for Israel to be wiped off the map. It is part of Hamas' charter. Hamas wants it all. No sharing with the Jews.

And to the Mods: I find this thread's title to be completely biased, inflammatory and offensive. I am surprised to still see it in it's current form on this site.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 11:30 AM

Iran [...] are all asking for Israel to be wiped off the map.

That's it. One more time and I'm putting it in my signature. I can't keep on saying it.

Let us be clear on one thing, only one country has been 'wiped off the map'.

bruinsrme

Dec 28, 2008, 11:31 AM

That's it. One more time and I'm putting it in my signature. I can't keep on saying it.

so Iran is asking to wipe irael off the map?

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 11:32 AM

so Iran is asking to wipe irael off the map?

Are they?

bruinsrme

Dec 28, 2008, 11:34 AM

Are they?

I just want to see if you have it in you to put in your profile.

also where are you getting the death toll? CNN or fox?

Peterkro

Dec 28, 2008, 11:34 AM

And to the Mods: I find this thread's title to be completely biased, inflammatory and offensive. I am surprised to still see it in it's current form on this site.

Aside from using somewhat clumsy English in what way is it not factual or accurate (aside from the numbers of course which are still going up).

sporadicMotion

Dec 28, 2008, 11:35 AM

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and others are all asking for Israel to be wiped off the map. It is part of Hamas' charter. Hamas wants it all. No sharing with the Jews.

You should look at the maps of Israel/Palestinian land divide that happens to be posted in this thread. The Jews are also unwilling to share... this is in not way a one sided issue.

And to the Mods: I find this thread's title to be completely biased, inflammatory and offensive. I am surprised to still see it in it's current form on this site.

The title just states what has happened.

iJohnHenry

Dec 28, 2008, 11:37 AM

Great idea! Because Christians have never killed in the name of religion! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_crusades)

Damn, I was hoping for a Monty Python link. ;)

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 11:38 AM

I just want to see if you have it in you to put in your profile.

I think you're missing what I'm saying. Ahmadinejad is often quoted as saying that he wants 'Israel wiped off the map' - a mistranslation at best, a vicious lie when repeated after being debunked.

also where are you getting the death toll? CNN or fox?

What death toll? I'm not claiming any dead of any sort. However, if you're talking about the number of dead by Israeli forces then a few links might help you out.

The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/28/gaza-israel-palestinians-middle-east) says 280.

The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5407382.ece) Says 290.

P.S. I'd never use Fox as a source but even they are reporting 280 with 600 injured.

Badandy

Dec 28, 2008, 11:42 AM

My stance on this issue is very simple. Both sides launch attacks all the time and the conflict dates back so far it's hard to tell who threw the first stone. With that being said, here's what I think.

Both sides kill civilians in their military actions. One of them does it intentionally. That's it.

bruinsrme

Dec 28, 2008, 11:43 AM

That's it. One more time and I'm putting it in my signature. I can't keep on saying it.

Let us be clear on one thing, only one country has been 'wiped off the map'.

I think you're missing what I'm saying. Ahmadinejad is often quoted as saying that he wants 'Israel wiped off the map' - a mistranslation at best, a vicious lie when repeated after being debunked.

What death toll? I'm not claiming any dead of any sort.

Please tell me what I am missing here? did I mistakenly take your words out of context?

Compile 'em all

Dec 28, 2008, 11:44 AM

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and others are all asking for Israel to be wiped off the map. It is part of Hamas' charter. Hamas wants it all. No sharing with the Jews.

May be if they complied with UN Resolutions issued ages ago people will change their mind. You see man, it is not their land. It doesn't matter how you put it, even the international community have issued resolutions to give it back. They continue (been doing so since years) to destroy Palestinian homes/fields and building settlements.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 11:47 AM

Please tell me what I am missing here? did I mistakenly take your words out of context?

I continually put this lie to bed on this forum. If I hear it one more time, I'm going to put evidence that it's a lie in my signature. I can't keep on refuting it. It's tedious.

Surely

Dec 28, 2008, 11:48 AM

The thread title implies that Israel is intentionally targeting and killing civilians. This is not the truth. Israel is targeting Hamas installations- places where they are able to plan attacks on israeli civilians and build their suicide vests and rockets. Collateral civilian death is in no one's interest, especially Israel's.

bruinsrme

Dec 28, 2008, 11:49 AM

I continually put this lie to bed on this forum. If I hear it one more time, I'm going to put evidence that it's a lie in my signature. I can't keep on refuting it. It's tedious.

Please provide the evidence, it can only help understand the issues at hand.
Thanks
Scott

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 11:49 AM

The thread title implies that Israel is intentionally targeting and killing civilians.

It does no such thing.

This is not the truth.

Prove it.

If it isn't more than than an Israeli official saying 'yeah, but those naughty, completely unprovoked terrorists are 'hiding' in amongst civilians' then don't bother.

sporadicMotion

Dec 28, 2008, 11:50 AM

It is being misconstrued. Is this debate rational and productive, or is it simply a rehash of every angry debate that we've ever seen over this subject? If I've missed something, please feel free to point it out.

It is debate just as it is... I think some people may take it to personally and need to relax and debate it without anger. It's hard to find a productive answer in a computer internet forum. :p

For decades we've known the principles on which peace in this region can be founded. And yet, little progress has been made, and in some cases, negative progress. Why? Is it because the debate is mainly rational, thoughtful and productive, or because it's predominately angry and emotional, and counterproductive? What do you think?

Finding peace in that area is hard because no one is willing to give any. Both sides have been wronged on so many levels and have been without peace for so long that they don't even know what it is.

As for debating... see previous statement :D

I think it's notable the degree to which people who don't live in the Middle East, and have no direct stake in the outcome, have fully adopted the angry and divisive rhetoric of the Middle East -- the very same rhetoric that has produced decades of unresolved conflict. Can you think of another example of this? I've tried and can't come up with one. Do you think this is an insignificant fact?

People need to be aware of current events in the world... it's incredibly important that people are aware of the wrong that is going on in human society. To turn a blind eye and ignore will never make it go away. The state of the middle east is something the entire world does have stake in. It affects life on a global scale which is painfully obvious by the interventions and outright intrusions of outside forces into the region. This particular conflict doesn't have so much outside intervention... but there are massive political reasons for that.

It also occurs to me that the intensity of this debate outstrips its real importance. On the same front page of my newspaper this morning, along with the top story about over 200 Palestinians being killed in Gaza, was (further down the page) a story about the drug war in Mexico. Do you know (without looking it up) how many Mexicans have been killed in this conflict, in 2008 alone? The answer is over 5,000. This catastrophe is happening right over our border -- and not even by a matter of miles in many cases, but yards. Has anyone posted a thread to debate this issue? If anyone did, would it grow to hundreds of posts in a matter of hours?

It disgusting that the atrocities committed in other countries are so frequently ignored... I find it very bothersome that the vast populous only knows of the conflicts that get the majority of the media attention.

So this is not to cast aspersions on anyone -- but just to observe that many of us have invested way too much emotional energy in this particular conflict to see straight. My point is, if you are not part of the solution, you may be part of the problem. It is something to at least consider, don't you think?

A vague statement but it hold some truth. Everyone is part of the problem. If we're not standing in protest then we are doing nothing more than watching idly as thousands (generalized towards all conflict) of people die needlessly. We need to put our energies in towards making our voices heard on a larger scale. I'm not pointing fingers... but who here has protested something that believed to be wholly wrong?

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 11:53 AM

Please provide the evidence, it can only help understand the issues at hand.
Thanks
Scott

There are over one million links on the subject here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=ahmadinejad+did+not+say&btnG=Search&meta=). However, many people have found this (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ) specific link quite helpful.

Blue Velvet

Dec 28, 2008, 11:55 AM

I changed the thread title to something far more neutral... unless someone wants to dispute the month or year.

Anything to keep the peace around here at Xmas.

Schtumple

Dec 28, 2008, 11:56 AM

I changed the thread title to something far more neutral... unless someone wants to dispute the month or year.

Anything to keep the peace around here at Xmas.

Sorry BV, but I think it's a little bit too late for that...

bruinsrme

Dec 28, 2008, 11:56 AM

There are over one million links on the subject here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=ahmadinejad+did+not+say&btnG=Search&meta=). However, many people have found this (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ) specific link quite helpful.

Thank you sir.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 11:57 AM

Thank you sir.

This one is a nice one, too (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd5uq1AGxPs&feature=PlayList&p=F27FA785849F73A7&index=0)

sporadicMotion

Dec 28, 2008, 12:02 PM

I changed the thread title to something far more neutral... unless someone wants to dispute the month or year.

Anything to keep the peace around here at Xmas.

Palestine should come before Israel... ... ...

:eek:

:mad:

:rolleyes:

j/k

IJ Reilly

Dec 28, 2008, 12:04 PM

It is debate just as it is... I think some people may take it to personally and need to relax and debate it without anger. It's hard to find a productive answer in a computer internet forum. :p

It's not unique to internet forums. This forum is just a microcosm of the wider world, in which this particular conflict is debated with entirely unproductive ferocity. I'm not suggesting that anyone turn a blind eye to anything, but simply that this issue be put into some prospective, and also for individuals to consider whether, by what they say, they are adding or subtracting. Whenever one of these threads start, it's difficult not to be reminded of Einstein's definition of insanity.

bruinsrme

Dec 28, 2008, 12:04 PM

Palestine should come before Israel... ... ...

:eek:

:mad:

:rolleyes:

j/k

Cmon they can only change the title not the alphabet :eek:

skunk

Dec 28, 2008, 12:05 PM

My stance on this issue is very simple. Both sides launch attacks all the time and the conflict dates back so far it's hard to tell who threw the first stone.The conflict doesn't really date back all that far. Flawed though it is, Wikipedia will give you a pretty solid outline.
Both sides kill civilians in their military actions. One of them does it intentionally. That's it.There are no Israeli civilians as far as the Palestinians are concerned. There are armed occupiers and there are unarmed occupiers. And what do intentions matter when you launch attacks knowing that civilians will die?

Surely

Dec 28, 2008, 12:06 PM

It does no such thing.

Prove it.

If it isn't more than than an Israeli official saying 'yeah, but those naughty, completely unprovoked terrorists are 'hiding' in amongst civilians' then don't bother.

You have lost all credibility.

To imply that some 'official' in the Israeli government has the ability or the desire to launch military actions just to kill civilians is just stupid and makes no sense.

Killing civilians creates more hate and bad PR. Israel tries to avoid it at all costs. Unfortunately yes, the major scary Hamas installations are centred in schools, mosques, and hospitals. Israel has the right to defend herself before some terrorist blows him/herself up on a bus in Jerusalem or before a rocket hits a school in an Israeli town and kills someone.

What the hell is an unprovoked terrorist? I think you need to take a break from this thread and go get some fresh air.

I changed the thread title to something far more neutral... unless someone wants to dispute the month or year.

Anything to keep the peace around here at Xmas.

Don't forget Chanukah :)

Thank you BV, it is appreciated. Happy holidays.

Blue Velvet

Dec 28, 2008, 12:14 PM

Don't forget Chanukah :)

It's kinda customary for people in Commonwealth countries just to generically refer to the break as Xmas and I'm the furthest thing from a church-goer. To the majority of people here in the UK, it's a secular holiday... a winter solstice of gluttony and consumption. We don't get Thanksgiving, you see. ;)

So when you see a Brit, or as good as one, refer to the overall period as Xmas, then no deliberate oversight is intended. It's just the common parlance and people saying things like 'Happy Holidays' over here get looked at pretty weirdly...

Anyway, on with the scheduled programming. ;)

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 12:14 PM

You have lost all credibility.

Thanks. It'll take a lot more than you saying that to make it true.

To imply that some 'official' in the Israeli government has the ability or the desire to launch military actions just to kill civilians is just stupid and makes no sense.

Lucky that I didn't imply that then, isn't it.

Killing civilians creates more hate and bad PR.

I find that's the worst part about killing innocent civilians. It's just not good for public relations.

Israel tries to avoid it at all costs.

Well, that's just outrageous. Not bombing civilian areas would be a start. Do I really need to drag out the old videos of Israeli forces killing children?

What the hell is an unprovoked terrorist?

It's a terrorist that hasn't been provoked. Really not that hard to understand. However, you might want to look at the context in which I typed those words.

I think you need to take a break from this thread and go get some fresh air.

I think you need to pick up your history book and learn about the area. Actually why don't you pay a trip out to the area and talk to people. It'll help you understand.

I've absolutely no intention of backing down from lies and propaganda and certainly not from pretentious digs. So, with that I return to my original request: Prove it.

skunk

Dec 28, 2008, 12:20 PM

Whenever one of these threads start, it's difficult not to be reminded of Einstein's definition of insanity.As with the Iraq war and the causes of it, there is a steady stream of misinformation and disinformation and outright lies peddled by the perpetrators of war crimes to revise the history of conflicts in their own favour. The balance needs to be redressed time and time again if the falsehoods are to be recognised and the propaganda neutralised.

Surely

Dec 28, 2008, 12:22 PM

skunk

Dec 28, 2008, 12:22 PM

a Brit, or as good as onePossibly even better... :)

I can type stuff over a video too. See:In what way does this childishness address the substance of the post?

Surely

Dec 28, 2008, 12:24 PM

It's kinda customary for people in Commonwealth countries just to generically refer to the break as Xmas and I'm the furthest thing from a church-goer. To the majority of people here in the UK, it's a secular holiday... a winter solstice of gluttony and consumption. We don't get Thanksgiving, you see. ;)

So when you see a Brit, or as good as one, refer to the overall period as Xmas, then no deliberate oversight is intended. It's just the common parlance and people saying things like 'Happy Holidays' over here get looked at pretty weirdly...

Anyway, on with the scheduled programming. ;)

I wasn't trying to imply any deliberate oversight, and I apologize if I came off that way. I was just being cute.

I really was just saying thank you.

/Time for me to go out..... I think I'll take a break from this thread for a while.

In what way does this childishness address the substance of the post?

Did you watch his video? I was addressing that link specifically.

Now I leave.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 12:25 PM

I can type stuff over a video too. See:

What are you trying to prove with that? It was an illustration of what had been covered up by CBS. The text was then revealed to show what Ahmadinejad actually said. You're either missing the point of the video or you're being deliberately oafish and obtuse. Well, maybe not deliberately.

floyde

Dec 28, 2008, 12:26 PM

I can type stuff over a video too. See:

There are links on that page that lead to the sources for the info contained on that video. You could go and read that stuff to form your opinion on actual evidence instead of misguided emotion. Granted, it takes a lot of work to verify all that stuff, but at least you'll feel relieved to not have to make stuff up in order to support your views.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 12:28 PM

Time for me to go out..... I think I'll take a break from this thread for a while.

Now I leave.

And that's the first time that's ever happened on this forum. Not.

skunk

Dec 28, 2008, 12:28 PM

Did you watch his video? I was addressing that link specifically.

Now I leave.Too late, I fear. I did watch the video, and your post did not make the slightest constructive contribution or bear any relevance to it whatsoever.

IJ Reilly

Dec 28, 2008, 12:38 PM

As with the Iraq war and the causes of it, there is a steady stream of misinformation and disinformation and outright lies peddled by the perpetrators of war crimes to revise the history of conflicts in their own favour. The balance needs to be redressed time and time again if the falsehoods are to be recognised and the propaganda neutralised.

As a generic statement, I suppose that's fine -- but of course the details are far more problematic. It's not like you can get much agreement on what constitutes lies, disinformation, falsehood or propaganda. If only it was so easy to separate these things out. In fact I would submit that both sides are prepared to describe where the lies, disinformation, falsehood and propaganda exist -- but in precisely opposing terms.

skunk

Dec 28, 2008, 12:51 PM

As a generic statement, I suppose that's fine -- but of course the details are far more problematic. It's not like you can get much agreement on what constitutes lies, disinformation, falsehood or propaganda.One can but try. And keep trying.

sporadicMotion

Dec 28, 2008, 12:52 PM

It's not unique to internet forums. This forum is just a microcosm of the wider world, in which this particular conflict is debated with entirely unproductive ferocity. I'm not suggesting that anyone turn a blind eye to anything, but simply that this issue be put into some prospective, and also for individuals to consider whether, by what they say, they are adding or subtracting. Whenever one of these threads start, it's difficult not to be reminded of Einstein's definition of insanity.

I would just hope that people debating will lead to consciousness of the current state of society and hopefully plant the seed of desire to do something more. If one more person is will go to a protest or take a peaceful step to spread awareness or ANYTHING that might make a difference, then the thread has done some good... and that applies to any other conversation or debate anywhere else on any similar topic. If someone does nothing more than talk however, then at the very least they're, becoming aware. If they do nothing but perpetually debate the same thing with the same people with no action... well then it becomes a little redundant. Einstein's definition of insanity is applicable but it can be applied to anything where repetition comes into play... I love it though :p

Cmon they can only change the title not the alphabet :eek:

Well then you're thinking is too linear!!!!! hehehe :p

As a generic statement, I suppose that's fine -- but of course the details are far more problematic. It's not like you can get much agreement on what constitutes lies, disinformation, falsehood or propaganda. If only it was so easy to separate these things out. In fact I would submit that both sides are prepared to describe where the lies, disinformation, falsehood and propaganda exist -- but in precisely opposing terms.

This is a wonderful piece of truth describing lies. This is why people need to look beyond the mass media to find what the truth is. Once again, I highly recommend university lectures... while anything can be a lie, at the very least, these are more two sided than any news report anyone can see on TV.

Badandy

Dec 28, 2008, 01:11 PM

There are no Israeli civilians as far as the Palestinians are concerned.

And as far as I'm concerned, that's abhorrent.

And what do intentions matter when you launch attacks knowing that civilians will die?

Civilians get killed in war, on both sides. I think I'll side with the force that doesn't intentionally kill civilians.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 01:18 PM

Civilians get killed in war, on both sides. I think I'll side with the force that doesn't intentionally kill civilians.

That's not Israel then.

This comment is naive and very over simplified. Do you seriously not know about the people Israel kill? Have you honestly never been told or shown videos of the snipers or the attacks on beaches etc?

If you'd have the same sort of injustice done to you then I'd understand, although not condone or support, your reaction. This conflict didn't start a few days ago with Hamas firing rockets and killing one Israeli (which is one too many), it started long before.

skunk

Dec 28, 2008, 01:43 PM

And as far as I'm concerned, that's abhorrent.You may find it abhorrent, but it's a perfectly valid viewpoint for a people who find themselves in the position of those in Gaza.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 01:46 PM

I'm just listening to last nights radio show presented by George Galloway. I know not everybody likes his style, but, to put it lightly, he's not happy.

IJ Reilly

Dec 28, 2008, 02:04 PM

One can but try. And keep trying.

Given the diametrically opposed views of reality present, how can this be accomplished? This is more than a challenge, it might be the definition of the problem itself.

I would just hope that people debating will lead to consciousness of the current state of society and hopefully plant the seed of desire to do something more. If one more person is will go to a protest or take a peaceful step to spread awareness or ANYTHING that might make a difference, then the thread has done some good... and that applies to any other conversation or debate anywhere else on any similar topic. If someone does nothing more than talk however, then at the very least they're, becoming aware. If they do nothing but perpetually debate the same thing with the same people with no action... well then it becomes a little redundant. Einstein's definition of insanity is applicable but it can be applied to anything where repetition comes into play... I love it though :p

Sorry, but I don't see any consciousness being raised in these debates. The "protest" and the "discussion" are as nearly as I can see designed not to shed any light but to bludgeon the other side into submission. Not that this will ever happen. So this again is a mirror of the conflict itself. Why are so many people who lack a direct stake in the outcome so completely bought into the rhetoric of antagonism? That's what I am asking.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 02:09 PM

I'm just listening to last nights radio show presented by George Galloway. I know not everybody likes his style, but, to put it lightly, he's not happy.

Actually, I've had to stop it now. Too many people talking about the scenes they have witnessed of families sifting through piles of dead bodies trying to find their own children etc.

Too much tonight.

Surely

Dec 28, 2008, 03:03 PM

What are you trying to prove with that? It was an illustration of what had been covered up by CBS. The text was then revealed to show what Ahmadinejad actually said. You're either missing the point of the video or you're being deliberately oafish and obtuse. Well, maybe not deliberately.

I did not miss the point of the video.

And there's no need for personal insults.

And that's the first time that's ever happened on this forum. Not.

Imagine, a life outside of these forums. A beautiful day in LA, and I decide to go out instead of sitting at my computer. How amazing.....

I am done with this thread. It's stinky.

bruinsrme

Dec 28, 2008, 03:09 PM

Actually, I've had to stop it now. Too many people talking about the scenes they have witnessed of families sifting through piles of dead bodies trying to find their own children etc.

Too much tonight.
If rockets hit israeli homes would you be able to listen to the reports of the israeli families having to sift through the ruble to find their own children?

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 03:11 PM

And there's no need for personal insults.

I agree, that's why I didn't do it.

I am done with this thread. It's stinky.

Double shock. It's very easy to spout a load of nonsense and then not be able to back them up in the face of scrutiny from me, skunk and others. Show some intellectual rigour and counter our points before running off and sulking.

If rockets hit israeli homes would you be able to listen to the reports of the israeli families having to sift through the ruble to find their own children?

If the situation was reversed, then of course. I don't like to hear anything about dead children with limbs hanging off or their heads blown off. I don't want these things to happen. And it's not sifting through rubble, it's sifting through other bodies looking for them. They are not sifting through piles of stones, but piles of other dead bodies.

You're trying to push something here, why not go the whole way and say what you really want to say.

This massacre is entirely different to the one dead (as I've said, and I'll say yet again for clarity, that is one too many) Israeli.

I'm still waiting for your condemnation of this crime.

bruinsrme

Dec 28, 2008, 03:35 PM

If the situation was reversed, of course. I don't like to hear anything about dead children with limbs hanging off or their heads blown off. I don't want these things to happen. And it's not sifting through rubble, it's sifting through other bodies looking for them. They are not sifting through piles of stones, but piles of other dead bodies.

You're trying to push something here, why not go the whole way and say what you really want to say.

This massacre is entirely different to the one dead (as I've said, and I'll say yet again for clarity, that is one too many) Israeli.

I'm still waiting for your condemnation of this crime.

All I am trying to bring out is the good in you. I think your words are only as bold as the internet allows them to be. But in reality this entire sequence of events not only bothers you for, if you will, your people (not trying to be condensending) but as a human in seeing the suffering, destruction and death.

A death father, mother, son. daughter and so on is grieved regardless if you are Jewish, Muslim, Catholic and so on....

Now for the condemnation, both sides need to stop, immediately.
Whether it be 1 or 300 death is final and senseless especially in this manner. I am not going to say one side in more guilty than the other or less guilty than the other. They both have obligations to their people, their children and to the world.
Should bombing stop absolutely
Should the rockets stop absolutely
Should peace talks be priority absolutely

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 03:42 PM

All I am trying to bring out is the good in you.

It looks like we have different definitions of 'good'.

I think your words are only as bold as the internet allows them to be. But in reality this entire sequence of events not only bothers you for, if you will, your people (not trying to be condensending) but as a human in seeing the suffering, destruction and death.

You're going to have to be more blunt with me. I'm not quite getting what you're saying. I'm the one shouting about the suffering and the death.

As for 'my people'. Who exactly are they? I'm just standing up against the vile injustice.

A death father, mother, son. daughter and so on is grieved regardless if you are Jewish, Muslim, Catholic and so on....

You're preaching to the choir on that one.

I am not going to say one side in more guilty than the other

Here is a difference, I'm quite happy to say that one side is more guilty than the other. Why? Because they are.

Should bombing stop absolutely
Should the rockets stop absolutely
Should peace talks be priority absolutely

Well, we've finally found something we can agree on.

skunk

Dec 28, 2008, 04:49 PM

Given the diametrically opposed views of reality present, how can this be accomplished? This is more than a challenge, it might be the definition of the problem itself.But it's not all "views of reality", is it? Somewhere, buried beneath the lies, the rubble and the dead bodies, there are Facts, there is History, there are Statistics, and there is YouTube. Provable falsehoods which derive their truthiness only from repetition can be scotched, misapprehensions of the historical record can be corrected, misquotations and lies of omission can be set straight. The problem lies as much in the perception of those outside the conflict as in the mindset of those within it. The horrific asymmetry which perpetuates the desperation and justifies the injustice should at least be illuminated and shown for what it is. An internet forum may not seem like a useful arena for such discussions, but it can at least serve as a proving ground for the arguments for and against. We may or may not persuade anyone here to change their mind, but if we believe that the story being told by our politicians and our media is wholly incorrect, we have a duty to try at least to point out the fallacies and propaganda they disseminate.

Delta608

Dec 28, 2008, 05:06 PM

Nothing brings out the Forum Fighters and the bloggers like a good ole fashion a** kicking at the hands of jews eh...?? Not one condemnation from anyone as the rockets again started last week during a Jewish Holiday..Fortunately the Palestinians have lousy aim and guidance systems. But alas they "Don't Lay down and die, when their door is kicked in"*. Gets ya'll riled up... "Disproportionate use of force" ya say..?? Then don't bring a knife to a gun fight...Now if they only would cut the head off the snake and bomb Hamas Headquarters in Damascus..

* Robert Zimmerman

skunk

Dec 28, 2008, 05:13 PM

Nothing brings out the Forum Fighters and the bloggers like a good ole fashion a** kicking at the hands of jews eh...??There is nothing good about wholesale slaughter, nor do I think Bob Dylan would care to have his lyrics used in support of it.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 05:20 PM

Massacre FTW! War Crimes FTW!

Macky-Mac

Dec 28, 2008, 05:28 PM

...An internet forum may not seem like a useful arena for such discussions, but it can at least serve as a proving ground for the arguments for and against.....

I doubt TJ would object to the sort of discussion you're talking about, but then we haven't really seen much of that in this thread now have we?

IJ Reilly

Dec 28, 2008, 05:39 PM

But it's not all "views of reality", is it?

Pretty much all that matters now are views of reality, I'm coming to believe. History and facts are used as weapons by all of the players, as justifications for continuing the conflict on their own terms. Asymmetry has little to do with this, IMO. Whether one side is more powerful in a war is immaterial to the consequences of the war, if both sides have as their unachievable goal the destruction of the other. They are both creating a rationale for unceasing conflict, and both for their own reasons, based on their mutually exclusive views of reality.

The facts that matter: For their part, Israelis demand security and an end to the fantastical situation in which many of their neighbors deny their existence. They demand this with complete justification. Palestinians demand the right govern themselves, also with complete justification. But by exercising their deep historical enmity and grievances towards each other, both sides have created a reality where these things cannot exist at the same time -- Hamas, quite explicitly as a matter of policy; Israel by the way they react to Hamas' provocations. This is a product of views of reality, not necessity.

You could spend the rest of your lifetime responding to the lies and misrepresentations coming from both sides. But you'd be dead long before it made any difference, just as generations have already gone to their graves believing that simply correcting the record is going to change anything. I hardly bother any longer, knowing how utterly fruitless it is to represent facts or history in this debate.

I've said it just about every time I get involved in one these discussions: if there is any hope of ending this conflict, history has to be abandoned, not embraced.

mgguy

Dec 28, 2008, 06:04 PM

But it's not all "views of reality", is it? Somewhere, buried beneath the lies, the rubble and the dead bodies, there are Facts, there is History, there are Statistics, and there is YouTube. Provable falsehoods which derive their truthiness only from repetition can be scotched, misapprehensions of the historical record can be corrected, misquotations and lies of omission can be set straight. The problem lies as much in the perception of those outside the conflict as in the mindset of those within it. The horrific asymmetry which perpetuates the desperation and justifies the injustice should at least be illuminated and shown for what it is. An internet forum may not seem like a useful arena for such discussions, but it can at least serve as a proving ground for the arguments for and against. We may or may not persuade anyone here to change their mind, but if we believe that the story being told by our politicians and our media is wholly incorrect, we have a duty to try at least to point out the fallacies and propaganda they disseminate.

Beautifully and eloquently said I think.

Delta608

Dec 28, 2008, 06:06 PM

There is nothing good about wholesale slaughter, nor do I think Bob Dylan would care to have his lyrics used in support of it.

There will be no peace until it cost too much in lives which unfortunately has not yet happened....

*BTW: Dylan wrote Neighborhood Bully precisely for what is occurring..

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man,
His enemies say he's on their land.
They got him outnumbered about a million to one,
He got no place to escape to, no place to run.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,
He's criticized and condemned for being alive.
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin,
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,
He's wandered the earth an exiled man.
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,
He's always on trial for just being born.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
The bombs were meant for him.
He was supposed to feel bad.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
He's the neighborhood bully.

He got no allies to really speak of.
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love.
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly.
To hurt one they would weep.
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone,
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,
In bed with nobody, under no one's command.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin', they say.
He just likes to cause war.
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers?
Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,
Running out the clock, time standing still,
Neighborhood bully.

skunk

Dec 28, 2008, 06:10 PM

The facts that matter: For their part, Israelis demand security and an end to the fantastical situation in which many of their neighbors deny their existence. They demand this with complete justification. Palestinians demand the right govern themselves, also with complete justification.This is precisely where the asymmetry matters. The terms in which you state the problem give an outward appearance of symmetry which is completely unreal. Which of Israel's neighbours deny their existence? People may deny their right to exist on the terms of Ben Gurion's crazy religio-historical fantasy:Our right to exist--have you ever heard of such a thing? Would it enter the mind of any Briton or Frenchman, Belgian or Dutchman, Hungarian or Bulgarian, Russian or American, to request for its people recognition of its right to exist? Mr. Speaker: We were granted our right to exist by the God of our fathers at the glimmer of the dawn of human civilization four thousand years ago. Hence, the Jewish people have an historic, eternal and inalienable right to exist in this land, Eretz Israel, the land of our forefathers. We need nobody's recognition in asserting this inalienable right. And for this inalienable right, which has been sanctified in Jewish blood from generation to generation, we have paid a price unexampled in the annals of nations. Mr. Speaker: From the Knesset of Israel, I say to the world, our very existence per se is our right to exist! but their actual existence is not really open to question. They (the Israelis) like of course to equate their supposed "right to exist" with a right to exist as a "greater Israel", assuming a sovereignty over an area defined by a wholly partisan account of ancient history rather than that granted to them over the traditional lands of others by an already flawed decision of the United Nations. Certainly history has to be "got over" in order to make progress, but the gross asymmetry which describes their present is the legacy of that history, and makes negotiations in good faith practically impossible. Unless the appalling conditions in Gaza and the draconian restraints and provocations inflicted on the Palestinians in their everyday lives by their subjugation within a "greater Israel" are recognised for what they are, people will continue to treat one side's actions as "legitimate response" and the other's as "terrorist provocation".You could spend the rest of your lifetime responding to the lies and misrepresentations coming from both sides. But you'd be dead long before it made any difference, just as generations have already gone to their graves believing that simply correcting the record is going to change anything. I hardly bother any longer, knowing how utterly fruitless it is to represent facts or history in this debate.I have little doubt that I, along with many of the hapless inhabitants of that benighted region, will be long gone before a resolution is reached, but it is surely never fruitless to represent facts or history in any debate.

There will be no peace until it cost too much in lives which unfortunately has not yet happened....

*BTW: Dylan wrote Neighborhood Bully precisely for what is occurring.That was written 25 years ago, and not in support of wholesale slaughter.

deputy_doofy

Dec 28, 2008, 06:39 PM

That's not Israel then.

This comment is naive and very over simplified. Do you seriously not know about the people Israel kill? Have you honestly never been told or shown videos of the snipers or the attacks on beaches etc?

If you'd have the same sort of injustice done to you then I'd understand, although not condone or support, your reaction. This conflict didn't start a few days ago with Hamas firing rockets and killing one Israeli (which is one too many), it started long before.

És, I see your propaganda machine has been in full force. You accuse Israel of purposely targeting and killing civilians, even though it's not their intention. It is an unforunate part of war.

However, Hamas had made it clear to all the news corporations that they will be going after Israeli cafes. I bet you see that as justifiable.

In 2001, Palestinian snipers intentionally shot a 10-month old infant in the head. We can go back and forth about sniping events.

Agathon

Dec 28, 2008, 08:05 PM

Nothing brings out the Forum Fighters and the bloggers like a good ole fashion a** kicking at the hands of jews eh...?? Not one condemnation from anyone as the rockets again started last week during a Jewish Holiday.

Since the current round of Hamas rocket firing started after an Israeli incursion on November 4th – cunningly timed so that the US Presidential election would drown out any news of it*– your post is a little short on the facts. Not to mention the blockade, which has been going on for nearly a year.

And the whole Israeli strategy is risible on the face of it. Everyone knows that many of the rockets are fired by people acting on their own initiative. So it seems a massively counterproductive strategy to deliberately attack and cripple the only forces of law and order in the Gaza Strip.

But we've seen this before. Recall the Israeli assault on the Palestinian authority, at the same time they were complaining that it was not stopping suicide bombers. How could it, since it was under 24-7 assault?

That dog didn't hunt then, and it doesn't now.

It's the same old story: racist Likudnik jews use the holocaust as moral cover for their own violent, racist bigotry. It's a desperate strategy, and one that harms jews who do not support it (and I know many many jews who are privately sick about the whole thing, but who are scared to speak out for fear of being labelled "self-hating"). In the US, people can't even acknowledge that the Israel lobby is powerful without being labelled as racist by the pro Zionist media (it's as absurd as someone being accused of hating old people for pointing out the political influence of the AARP).

Israel is losing the argument. People aren't stupid, and the Lebanon war was the tipping point for a great many people. Trying to suppress the truth just means that it bursts out in unpredictable ways. Anyone who manages to make Mahmoud Ahmadinejad look reasonable is in mortal danger, I should think.

és:

Dec 28, 2008, 08:21 PM

I bet you see that as justifiable.

That's because you have no ******** idea what you're talking about. How dare you imply such a thing. Disgusting.

In 2001, Palestinian snipers intentionally shot a 10-month old infant in the head.

Talking of propaganda ^

I found that incident disgusting and was outspoken about the incident when it happened. However, the only 'evidence' to suggest that the killing of Shalhevet Pass was intentional is an israeli 'investigator'. Her father, who was pushing the push chair she was sitting in when she was shot, was found with 10 pounds of explosives in his car and was suspected to be part of an underground terror cell.

As deplorable as this incident was, it's important to have the facts out in the open.

Again, for a third time in this post because I know how you like to try to skew things, I condemn and utterly detest this vile act.