Snow Leopard Screenshots Show Little New [Archive]

MacRumors

Dec 28, 2008, 07:05 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/12/28/snow-leopard-screenshots-show-little-new/)

Over the holiday weekend, some screenshots (http://74.125.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://community.sevenmac.de/Sinan/albums/89&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.sevenmac.de/exklusive-bilder-zum-kommen-snow-leopard%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3Dglh&usg=ALkJrhhSPFGVLAqF3A203w0fs_RTphiciA) and video (http://www.sevenmac.net/sevenmac-receives-video-preview-of-snow-leopard/) of the developer release of Snow Leopard were posted to a german site.

Overall, the images show little new from the WWDC build originally released back in July, but may be of interest to some readers. By its nature, Snow Leopard will have little in the way of visual changes and most of the improvements are said to be "under the hood". New Apple technologies such as Grand Central and Open CL will allow developers to easily tap into multi-core CPUs and GPUs that reside in most Macs.

Apple is expected to update the Mac mini and iMac to incorporate the latest NVIDIA GPUs. In doing so, they will enable all shipping Macs to take advantage of many of the benefits of Snow Leopard. Apple is rumored to be showing Snow Leopard at Macworld Expo which kicks off on January 5th.

Article Link: Snow Leopard Screenshots Show Little New (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/12/28/snow-leopard-screenshots-show-little-new/)

Tallest Skil

Dec 28, 2008, 07:07 PM

Obligatory "I want ZFS standard and resolution independence" post.

Is this news, really? Hopefully this 32-bit compatibility mode will be dead before launch...

Yvan256

Dec 28, 2008, 07:09 PM

Fingers crossed for the nVidia 9400GM in an updated Mac mini.

Tallest Skil

Dec 28, 2008, 07:10 PM

Fingers crossed for the nVidia 9400GM in an updated Mac mini.

Pretty much a lock given the leaked code we've seen.

El Carbonite

Dec 28, 2008, 07:13 PM

Apple could just be keeping things a little close to the vest and not distributing builds to devs with features that they don't want to be leaked. Look what they did with Leopard.

Who knows?

ziggyonice

Dec 28, 2008, 07:13 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/12/28/snow-leopard-screenshots-show-little-new/)

Snow Leopard Screenshots Show Little New (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/12/28/snow-leopard-screenshots-show-little-new/)

Um... isn't that the point of Snow Leopard? Little new changes that are visible, but big changes that aren't?

BlueRevolution

Dec 28, 2008, 07:15 PM

I'm not a developer and my computer runs very fast already. Apple is going to have to do a lot more than that to convince me to upgrade.

Rorikynn

Dec 28, 2008, 07:17 PM

This is hardly shocking or even news worthy.

I'm not a developer and my computer runs very fast already. Apple is going to have to do a lot more than that to convince me to upgrade.

Then don't upgrade. Jeesh.

Tallest Skil

Dec 28, 2008, 07:20 PM

Then don't upgrade. Jeesh.

You missed the point of his post.

MacsRgr8

Dec 28, 2008, 07:21 PM

Why is this on page 1?

I think the 10a222 developer release has already been discussed a lot, and that this build is far from finalised seems logic.

More of a "move along, nothing to see here", IMHO.

If there is something new to be seen in Snow Leopard, we'll see it @ MWSF... even if Schiller is going to demo it (I just cannot get used to the idea... I'm sorry).
The dev builds following MWSF will give us plenty of screenshots and movies to play around with. ;)

jonbravo77

Dec 28, 2008, 07:22 PM

Matthew Yohe

Dec 28, 2008, 07:24 PM

ctucci

Dec 28, 2008, 07:24 PM

This is hardly shocking or even news worthy.

Then don't upgrade. Jeesh.

That's what he said, actually. He won't upgrade, without a compelling reason.

Not everyone has a huge wallet to throw at every upgrade on their production box. If that's a prerequisite for liking Macs, we have a problem.

ziggyonice

Dec 28, 2008, 07:26 PM

jonbravo77

Dec 28, 2008, 07:26 PM

I will be curious to see how this is priced. Many changes will be under the hood yes, but I know many will buy this just to get rid of Entourage in an Exchange world. Using iCal, Mail, and Address Book to connect natively to an Exchange server will be fantastic.

I can tell you that I won't upgrade for this reason. I use an Exchange and happen to like Entourage for it. Makes my life easier not having to open multiple apps to get to what I need. And what does "connect natively to and Exchange server" mean anyway. Nothing native about it since the Exchange servers are Windows based.

mdriftmeyer

Dec 28, 2008, 07:29 PM

Obligatory "I want ZFS standard and resolution independence" post.

Is this news, really? Hopefully this 32-bit compatibility mode will be dead before launch...

What do you care? Your kernel will be 64 bit and your OS will take advantage of that natively. If you have a pet application that isn't 64 bit yet, cutting 32 bit compatibility won't accelerate it in time for the release. There are tons of UNIX applications that will be moving to 64 bit, not just on OS X, but on Linux, FreeBSD, OpenSolaris/Solaris, AIX, NetBSD, etc.

They aren't handcuffing the OS with a 32bit kernel and 64 bit app layer.

weckart

Dec 28, 2008, 07:34 PM

If the changes are under the hood then you will upgrade or expect to do without software/hardware upgrades that require 10.6 to run.

mark88

Dec 28, 2008, 07:38 PM

Matt342

Dec 28, 2008, 07:39 PM

Those screenshots ARE OF THE WWDC BUILD! Notice how not all processes are 64-bit (which they are on the latest seed of Snow Leopard), and on the video the about dialog box shows build 10a96.

bdkennedy1

Dec 28, 2008, 07:41 PM

Well, I have to give this one a big 'ol Duh.

Anything could have changed in the past 6 months.

Matt342

Dec 28, 2008, 07:43 PM

The way this sentence is phrased: "Overall, the images show little new from the WWDC build originally released back in July, but may be of interest to some readers.", makes it sound as if the screenshots/video Sevenmac posted are DIFFERENT from the WWDC build.

Well, I have to give this one a big 'ol Duh.

Anything could have changed in the past 6 months.

ctucci

Dec 28, 2008, 07:44 PM

Fingers crossed for the nVidia 9400GM in an updated Mac mini.
Oh heck yeah, and with a mini dvi for a second monitor. This tritton setup I'm using is pretty good, but I'd rather have a second native display.

delhokie

Dec 28, 2008, 07:46 PM

Look at how much smaller Mail and iCal are- amazing! This is the kind of thing they promised, and I think this is a great move!

Regarding pricing/upgrade... I have a theory that they will tie an upgrade to ilife with upgrading the OS. What if they bundle iLife with OS X? That was a rumor a year or so ago, and this may be the time to do it. I'd upgrade if I get a new version of iLife that gives me more features and takes advantage of snow Leopard's goodness.

AidenShaw

Dec 28, 2008, 07:48 PM

They aren't handcuffing the OS with a 32bit kernel and 64 bit app layer.

I can't wait for Phil to explain why it was so wonderful that 10.5 gave full support for 64-bit, but without requiring new 64-bit drivers and 32-bit compatibility mode - but now 10.6 gives true full support for 64-bit, but requires all new drivers and 32-bit compatibility mode.

Apple 10.5: Ship 32-bit kernel, and knock Windows for the issues that a 64-bit kernel introduces.

Apple 10.6: Ship 64-bit kernel, and admit that Windows did it right the first time?

Yvan256

Dec 28, 2008, 07:48 PM

Pretty much a lock given the leaked code we've seen.

Still, I'm curious about the new size/style (if any), the new maximum for the RAM (or is it still 3GB?), will they drop the combodrive on the entry model, etc.

Fuzzy14

Dec 28, 2008, 07:50 PM

The look and feel hasn't changed since 2001, there is always nothing much to see in these screen shots. However, the devil will be in the detail....

Tallest Skil

Dec 28, 2008, 07:54 PM

Still, I'm curious about the new size/style (if any), the new maximum for the RAM (or is it still 3GB?), will they drop the combodrive on the entry model, etc.

Hopefully a "match the MacBooks" dealio, even if they white plastic on top is just exchanged for black glass.

They'll use an nVidia chipset, so it'll be 4GB official and 6GB should work, which will be NICE for the Mini.

If they have any sense, they'll say goodbye to that thing, five years late. They finally dropped it from all MacBooks, so I can see them getting rid of it here.

VTMac

Dec 28, 2008, 08:06 PM

I'm not a developer and my computer runs very fast already. Apple is going to have to do a lot more than that to convince me to upgrade.

It is this exact naive attitude that has enabled Microsoft to turn out trash for decades. Thankfully Apple doesn't really care if you understand. They simply make a better product and let it stand on it's own merit.

PVguy

Dec 28, 2008, 08:08 PM

"I'm not a developer and my computer runs very fast already. Apple is going to have to do a lot more than that to convince me to upgrade."

And that is why I'm still running Tiger. Skipping generations generally makes sense. I skipped 7.6, 8.5, 10.0, 10.3, and 10.5. 10.1 came with my quicksilver, and was so unstable that I did upgrade to 10.2, which I was quite happy with until software stopped supporting 10.2 and 10.4 shipped. The quicksilver (dual 1 Ghz CPUs) continues to thunder on with quite acceptable speed, so I've skipped the G5 series as well, and the first generation Intels. When Nehalem CPUs ship with Snow Leopard, then we'll see whether to go all-Apple, Hackintosh, or Linux.

More and more software is coming out for Intel-only, so I don't think I can hold-out with the quicksilver much longer as my front-line machine.

burningbright

Dec 28, 2008, 08:15 PM

Look at how much smaller Mail and iCal are- amazing! This is the kind of thing they promised, and I think this is a great move!

If you like small apps, you should download a copy of Xslimmer and give it a trial run. On my Leopard machine Mail.app is 24.7 MB and iCal 11.4 MB. All it does is strip out the localisations and the PPC code, the stuff the computer ignores anyway. I remember hearing that Apple were slimming apps for 10.6 by doing the same thing, presumably adding lots of new code to bulk it back up somewhat. Leopard is one chubby tabby...

Matthew Yohe

Dec 28, 2008, 08:24 PM

Makes my life easier not having to open multiple apps to get to what I need.

Entourage is very slow. iCal can start faster than Entourage can switch between Mail and Calendar views. Entourage will probably never run as fast as any of Apple's apps, period.

And what does "connect natively to and Exchange server" mean anyway. Nothing native about it since the Exchange servers are Windows based.

Entourage is simply a WebDAV client. It is limited by whatever the Exchange server can pipe out over HTTP. Entourage is unable to schedule resources, sync tasks, sync notes etc.

Apple licensed Microsoft's ActiveSync protocol for use in the iPhone so that it could directly communicate with the exchange server to view/update calendars, reply to event invitations, send receive mail, browse the LDAP directory etc. This protocol can more directly work with a user's mailbox than a WebDAV client can.

Now, in Snow Leopard, Apple will be using Microsoft's new replacement to MAPI (which has been in use since Outlook's inception) called 'Exchange Web Services.' This is a new approach to communicating with an Exchange server, one that actually embraces XML and SOAP standards and allows full functionality of any third party product that uses the EWS API.

No longer will OS X users be unable to fully utilize Exchange features and Apple's apps will now be welcome citizens on that platform.

Entourage may be alright if you are just using it on a personal basis, but when you begin working with others in a more corporate environment, you start realizing all of the features that you are missing out on.

As an aside: Other than not supporting many Exchange features, other problems exist:

It is unable to view multiple calendars in one view. If you wanted to compare calendars with a colleague, you cannot look at them side by side.

HTML support is horrible in message bodies, and you are not even able to use HTML in messages. You honestly are unable to create a link in the body of a message.

Entourage uses a single file database store for all messages, events etc. This is bad for a couple reasons, mainly: Time Machine is unable to back up this file properly, the single file can grow to a size where the entire database becomes corrupt and all data is lost.

Oh and yes, it is incredibly slow.

steviem

Dec 28, 2008, 08:29 PM

I can tell you that I won't upgrade for this reason. I use an Exchange and happen to like Entourage for it. Makes my life easier not having to open multiple apps to get to what I need. And what does "connect natively to and Exchange server" mean anyway. Nothing native about it since the Exchange servers are Windows based.

Thats precisely the point. Entourage is lacking in true MAPI (thats the Exchange Protocol) that it doesn't work how Outlook does. Microsoft cobbled together this awful app thats barely any better than Outlook Web Access (well, its arguably worse). Its resource intensive, and as somebody who looks after 165 Windows Users and 15 Mac users, I can't wait to be able to show my manager that OSX is becoming a viable alternative for some more of our users.

Matthew's reply above is much more concise though... I guess we both know what a pain Enoturage is in a corporate environment that uses all of Exchange's groupware features...

mdodd

Dec 28, 2008, 08:33 PM

Article Link: Snow Leopard Screenshots Show Little New (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/12/28/snow-leopard-screenshots-show-little-new/)

Totally, totally submitted this last night!!

+1 biscuit for self

But our German friends should leak more pertinent information through these screenshots- although no much has changed, the OS build number is important (and missing)! We did get some OS X application build numbers though.

kurteye

Dec 28, 2008, 08:35 PM

Maybe the big secret is that the Finder is finally getting some love.

We know it's being rewritten in Cocoa.

One can only hope.

Mike Teezie

Dec 28, 2008, 08:35 PM

I'm just hoping Grand Central is a hit - I want my 8 core Mac Pro to really scream with Snow Leopard.

Diaresi

Dec 28, 2008, 08:47 PM

It is this exact naive attitude that has enabled Microsoft to turn out trash for decades. Thankfully Apple doesn't really care if you understand. They simply make a better product and let it stand on it's own merit.

I would say he has the sensible attitude. People (largey) didn't want to upgrade to Vista. XP does what people need it to on the hardware they use - and Microsoft and developers will support XP for ages to come.

Why should you upgrade just because Apple (and, as it happens, OS X developers) practically force you to? Apple has always been a "we do things our way, you either come with us or you don't" company; just look at Steve Jobs' stance on Blu-Ray! They certainly aren't pushing forward with optical discs are they (my theory: to peddle the iTunes Store...)?

Apple don't make a better product, they make an alternative product that is better in some areas, worse in others. And it doesn't stand on its own merits, Apple release adverts that bend the truth all kinds of places about Windows just to make them look better.

Yes, you have to make a trade off between supporting older systems and pushing further with newer ones. The problem I have is "pushing" us onto Leopard SP1 and charging $129.00/£83.00 for the privilege.

Krafty

Dec 28, 2008, 08:52 PM

Site isnt loading for me.

acfusion29

Dec 28, 2008, 08:55 PM

I hope they change the UI... :)

MacDiegoX

Dec 28, 2008, 09:02 PM

the site is down

queshy

Dec 28, 2008, 09:03 PM

Old news (yesterday) but whatever.
http://gizmodo.com/5119136/more-shots-of-os-x-106-snow-leopard-leak-some-german-required

Nothing too interesting. Hopefully mw won't be too lame.

reallynotnick

Dec 28, 2008, 09:08 PM

Yes, you have to make a trade off between supporting older systems and pushing further with newer ones. The problem I have is "pushing" us onto Leopard SP1 and charging $129.00/£83.00 for the privilege.

If you don't like the price don't buy it, simple as that. I skipped Leopard because I did not see the point and am still running happily on Tiger all my Apps run fine, nothing to complain about.

I will hopefully get 10.6 preinstalled when I get my new MacBook (Pro) come back to school, but I won't really care for my older equipment unless they can really prove it will speed up my old machines and is not really just meant for speeding up new machines. Otherwise my old 10.4 computers will keep running just fine.

Matthew Yohe

Dec 28, 2008, 09:11 PM

numbsafari

Dec 28, 2008, 09:19 PM

Apple could just be keeping things a little close to the vest and not distributing builds to devs with features that they don't want to be leaked. Look what they did with Leopard.

Who knows?

I'm waiting for Apple to silently incorporate steganography into the screen cap util. Either that or have a steganographic watermark on the desktop and possibly all window backgrounds.

Using something like perhaps they could track which developer leaked these images.

If I were them I'd keep it really quiet and just monitor who is doing what and then use other means to nail them for violating NDAs and such.

Compile 'em all

Dec 28, 2008, 09:32 PM

I'm waiting for Apple to silently incorporate steganography into the screen cap util. Either that or have a steganographic watermark on the desktop and possibly all window backgrounds.

Using something like perhaps they could track which developer leaked these images.

If I were them I'd keep it really quiet and just monitor who is doing what and then use other means to nail them for violating NDAs and such.

why does it matter so much to you?

PcBgone

Dec 28, 2008, 09:32 PM

For those of us with the 8800GS in our imacs, does this mean we wont be optimized for snow leopard?

Is there that much of a difference between the two cards?

Matthew Yohe

Dec 28, 2008, 09:33 PM

I'm waiting for Apple to silently incorporate steganography into the screen cap util. Either that or have a steganographic watermark on the desktop and possibly all window backgrounds.

I've wondered the same, but then thought, really how would they make unique DMG packages for every developer downloading the seed?

numbsafari

Dec 28, 2008, 09:44 PM

why does it matter so much to you?

It actually doesn't matter to me at all, except as a curiosity.

I mean, Apple is known to be really crazy about secrecy and tracking down these kinds of leaks. This seems like an obvious and easy thing to implement.

Mainly, I just wonder if they perhaps haven't already done something like this. I'm also curious about the people who do make these leaks and whether that sort of thing concerns/worries them.

So... doesn't matter to me at all (I'm not an Apple dev, I write server software mainly for Linux). Just curious.

I've wondered the same, but then thought, really how would they make unique DMG packages for every developer downloading the seed?

Good question. Instead of having a unique download for each developer they could have each developer enter a unique key when they install/activate the software. When that key is entered they could then either sign/watermark the necessary files and/or use that key to sign/watermark the images as they are drawn or capped.

That way they wouldn't have any unique downloads and it would require the person to circumvent a copy protection mechanism (ahem, DMCA) in order to get around it... if they even realized it was there. They might be harder to track down, but if they were Apple would be in a much better position to go after them on DMCA grounds as well as NDA violation.

J the Ninja

Dec 28, 2008, 09:53 PM

For those of us with the 8800GS in our imacs, does this mean we wont be optimized for snow leopard?

Is there that much of a difference between the two cards?

Whaa......the 8800GS is one of the better GPUs you can get a Mac with...

PcBgone

Dec 28, 2008, 10:09 PM

Whaa......the 8800GS is one of the better GPUs you can get a Mac with...

That was my understanding, however the last line of the article states,

Apple is expected to update the Mac mini and iMac to incorporate the latest NVIDIA GPUs. In doing so, they will enable all shipping Macs to take advantage of many of the benefits of Snow Leopard. Apple is rumored to be showing Snow Leopard at Macworld Expo which kicks off on January 5th.

This leads me to believe that the current 8800GS is not configured as well as it could be, or as well as the newer nvidias that are going to be in the new imacs..

J the Ninja

Dec 28, 2008, 10:14 PM

That was my understanding, however the last line of the article states,

This leads me to believe that the current 8800GS is not configured as well as it could be, or as well as the newer nvidias that are going to be in the new imacs..

No, that's not what it means. That last bit referred to just the Mac Mini's. The iMac's will likely be using the 9400 just as a support chipset, not for actual GPU work.

Matthew Yohe

Dec 28, 2008, 10:24 PM

Good question. Instead of having a unique download for each developer they could have each developer enter a unique key when they install/activate the software. When that key is entered they could then either sign/watermark the necessary files and/or use that key to sign/watermark the images as they are drawn or capped.

That way they wouldn't have any unique downloads and it would require the person to circumvent a copy protection mechanism (ahem, DMCA) in order to get around it... if they even realized it was there. They might be harder to track down, but if they were Apple would be in a much better position to go after them on DMCA grounds as well as NDA violation.

Yes, but that would defeat the whole purpose of their developer seeds. You are implying that they would have some authentication built into the SnowLeopard dev seeds, and then remove it when they go gold. Well even the removing of this authentication piece could cause unforeseen problems after its removal that Apple would want to test (the whole point of seeding!)

The only changes that Apple wants to make between the last seed and master that is pressed to the DVD is to add any last 'graphic' look in the form of image or movie files. (The new side dock, and the intro space 'Welcome' movie in the GM of Leopard)

Ultimately, they would have to be looking at implementing a system-wide "validation" piece that would be present to the consumer as well, which I don't see them doing.

akac

Dec 28, 2008, 10:42 PM

People who think that Snow Leopard is just SP1 or a bug-fix don't understand what SL is all about. OS X is really two things: An operating system, and applications. Leopard was a huge update to the operating system providing major new APIs for developers - so major that some apps simply refuse to run on anything less than Leopard and believe me it devs a lot to force users to use a minimum OS that new. Leopard also brought along some major changes to the app side, but not too much.

What SL does is make very large changes to the OS side again, but this time instead of focusing on features, it now focuses on giving developers a new major set of tools to increase performance. Note - its not that existing apps will run faster. Its new APIs that developers will have to use to do so.

So why would you want SL? Only for three reasons:
1) An app you use requires or perhaps runs a lot better on SL
2) You use Exchange and want the best integration you can get.
3) You enjoy using the latest OS.

Mudbug

Dec 28, 2008, 11:06 PM

On the System Profiler screen shot posted by sevenmac.com - twice it's misspelled:

"Leoaprds"

granted - if legit, this is an alpha release of the OS, but a typo like that makes me doubt the authenticity of all the screen shots right off the bat.

http://homepage.mac.com/roc3/insidetrack/images/uber_cap.jpg

alexbates

Dec 28, 2008, 11:09 PM

Those videos look real. You cant tell much of a different between Leopard and Snow Leopard. The only differences I see are the 64-bit processes in Activity Monitor and where you can choose which space an application is in on the dock. It looks cool so far, but I don't think I would pay $130 just for that. Has anyone noticed any other cool features besides these?

Sky Blue

Dec 28, 2008, 11:17 PM

Not working any more

mdriftmeyer

Dec 28, 2008, 11:25 PM

kalafalas

Dec 28, 2008, 11:26 PM

mdriftmeyer

Dec 28, 2008, 11:27 PM

Same here.

Every Apple application moved to Cocoa will have a new Services playground showing how much more interactive and leveraged each application makes your work output greater in productivity.

What Openstep users took for granted, OS X SL users will slowly get their heads around and ask ``Why the hell did we have to wait until 10.6 for this?''

QuantumLo0p

Dec 28, 2008, 11:31 PM

Fingers crossed for the nVidia 9400GM in an updated Mac mini.

Ditto. Many of us are more than ready for an update. My PowerMac is aging but now days I cannot justify another loaded top end machine. I simply do not need the power.

IMO, anything less than a 3GHz quad i7 in the Mini or iMac will harken back too the Apple days of old when users are forced to eat table crumbs whilst PC user enjoy the latest hardware. A simple 940 processor will suffice. Save the Xeon i7 for the MacPro. Currently we have to take a leap from the red headed step child known as the Core2 Duo to 8 core Xeons in the MacPro. Huh? Yeah, there IS a HUGE, GAPING HOLE the size of the Grand Canyon.

Please do not let us down, Steve. Those days should be long gone. Keep looking forward; TO THE FUTURE AND BEYOND!!!

Sorry, just had a Star Trek/Buzz Lightyear moment. I'm alright now.
:D

sporadicMotion

Dec 28, 2008, 11:49 PM

An outdated torrent download... who cares. That was the June release. Why is this front page?

sporadicMotion

Dec 28, 2008, 11:52 PM

Lone Deranger

Dec 29, 2008, 12:20 AM

Having never had the pleasure of using NeXTStep, could you please elaborate on your comment?
I'm fascinated by the history of OSX and it's Cocoa foundations and would like to hear from those who have used NeXTStep as to how it compares to Leopard.

4) You get to see exactly what a Cocoa Operating System is all about and were too young to live in a time when NeXTStep/Openstep were around to show how it stood out from the pack.

timsq

Dec 29, 2008, 12:38 AM

I can't see a completely free upgrade, but a $40-$60 upgrade would be a nice change. I respect the platform and buy each OS at retail and install on appropriate hardware. We need some wow or else they should just make it free.

Amdahl

Dec 29, 2008, 12:40 AM

Apple 10.5: Ship 32-bit kernel, and knock Windows for the issues that a 64-bit kernel introduces.

Apple 10.6: Ship 64-bit kernel, and admit that Windows did it right the first time?

You're on the mark there. Maybe Phil will have some RDF gas piped in to the room.

Quillz

Dec 29, 2008, 01:07 AM

To my understanding. Snow Leopard is not really anything special for the everyday consumer. What it will do is fix a lot of security issues the Leopard has that everyday consumers don't know about but ppl in the IT industry do.
You mean that Leopard isn't the bulletproof, perfect OS that Apple proclaims it to be? Amazing.

Actually, I think Snow Leopard will be a much bigger deal than the vast majority of the useless "features" added into Leopard.

dagamer34

Dec 29, 2008, 01:12 AM

Axemantitan

Dec 29, 2008, 01:17 AM

Why does the Energy Saver icon in this image (http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/28/leaked-snow-leopard-image-potentially-indicates-a-32-64-bit-di/) show an incandescent bulb? I thought that they now had an image of a compact fluorescent instead (or is that just on newer hardware, not new versions of OS X?)

Cole Slaw

Dec 29, 2008, 01:24 AM

I didn't really anticipate Snow Leopard looking different from Leopard.
In fact, I somehow doubt any future version of OS/X will look much different.
Maybe in 5 or 10 years when OS/11 (or whatever it'll be called) comes out things will get a refresh...
Not that I'm complaining about OS/X, though. I like it and it's really the only thing that keeps me buying Apple computers (not at all happy with the way things have been going lately with the hardware).

smartalic34

Dec 29, 2008, 01:34 AM

I sure hope my core duo MBP can run 10.6

10.7 and beyond... I dont care.

I just want a slimmed down OS for my machine (which I'll keep til it dies)

sporadicMotion

Dec 29, 2008, 02:59 AM

gklka

Dec 29, 2008, 03:41 AM

http://gk.czo.hu/gallery/index.php?dir=GALLERY/SnowLeopard10A222
:)

yoyo5280

Dec 29, 2008, 03:49 AM

is it just me or is the time and other menu icons on that side smaller then the rest :s

Whaleyland

Dec 29, 2008, 03:52 AM

im excited, i pray that its a free update tho, like 10.1

That would be awesome. Even if it is just an under-the-surface upgrade, I can't see myself buying it. I was hesitant to spring so much for Leopard and I got that discounted. I hope Snow Leopard is like 10.1, 9.1, 9.2, 8.6, and 8.1: FREE! I mean, it's not like they are naming it 10.6 Lion after all, it has the previous upgrade in its name for goodness sake! I can't see them charging for this upgrade, it just isn't really logical on the advertising and commercial side, unless they surprise everyone with a $120 bonus thing that no one can live without (like the transparent dock...HAHAHA! Yeah...right...).

rayz

Dec 29, 2008, 03:54 AM

gklka

Dec 29, 2008, 04:35 AM

is it just me or is the time and other menu icons on that side smaller then the rest :s

Look carefully those screenshots! The dpi of the screen is increased on them to show that Snow Leopard is a little step ahead of Leopard in that.

ToastyX

Dec 29, 2008, 05:57 AM

bobbleheadbob

Dec 29, 2008, 08:16 AM

I'm really looking forward to seeing this upgrade at MWSF. Any chance that :apple: will release it there? I'm thinking it's doubtful, but you never really know!

Full of Win

Dec 29, 2008, 08:33 AM

Without the Jobs RDF, I'm just not feeling good about Snow Leopard. Perhaps I'll be so transfixed on Tubbys mullet, that it might have the same effect, when he describes Snow Leopard to us next week.

xDYLANx

Dec 29, 2008, 08:41 AM

Hopefully a "match the MacBooks" dealio, even if they white plastic on top is just exchanged for black glass.

They'll use an nVidia chipset, so it'll be 4GB official and 6GB should work, which will be NICE for the Mini.

If they have any sense, they'll say goodbye to that thing, five years late. They finally dropped it from all MacBooks, so I can see them getting rid of it here.

I was saying the same thing about the black glass top. that would look b.a.

TheSpaz

Dec 29, 2008, 09:20 AM

Look like transparency from the drop down menus has completely disappeared:
http://gk.czo.hu/gallery/GALLERY/SnowLeopard10A222/Screenshot%2012-15-08%201.59.07%20AM.png

Boooooo!

Bubba Satori

Dec 29, 2008, 09:22 AM

Whaa......the 8800GS is one of the better GPUs you can get a Mac with...

Unfortunately.

liptonlover

Dec 29, 2008, 09:32 AM

I'm not a developer and my computer runs very fast already. Apple is going to have to do a lot more than that to convince me to upgrade.

I AM a developer, and self proclaimed nerd as well. One of the biggest things probably in snow leopard is Apple's latest from R&D, Open CL. What this means is the GPU can take a bunch of load off of the CPU. This will give your computer a crazy speed boost, and as long as you have a GPU in your mac you won't need new hardware. They're also making it easier for devs to use more than one core. Both of these together allow apple to give us the eye candy they love demonstrating, and it allows devs to make much better apps. It'd be like owning a supercomputer in terms of speed.

Also, the technology will of course move over to the iphone at some point, thus making it an extremely powerful little device, even more so than it is already.

Does anyone know if the iphone already has a GPU? I'm not really familiar with its insides.

VoR

Dec 29, 2008, 09:43 AM

Sweetfeld28

Dec 29, 2008, 09:46 AM

A little off topic, but does anyone happen to know what that song is in the first linked video? I like it, but have no idea who its by, or what the name of the song is.

liptonlover

Dec 29, 2008, 09:54 AM

I love reading about all the multi core and specifically gpu assisted things we'll be able to do at speed with modern computers - but apart from a few (useless) cuda apps on the nvidia page, what I don't see is "...and here is the code to use it"

That's the other point of Snow leopard... Making it east for devs to harness this power. In fact, I think open CL will happen automatically, in which case the better of the two major speed boosts will always be active and helping.

Ropie

Dec 29, 2008, 10:08 AM

A little off topic, but does anyone happen to know what that song is in the first linked video? I like it, but have no idea who its by, or what the name of the song is.

Hehe, it's Infinity by Guru Josh, from back in the early 1990s. ;)

sdp

Dec 29, 2008, 10:09 AM

If there is no 64-bit Carbon support, then what will happen to Apple's pro apps that are still written in Carbon; are they going to stay 32-bit? I would have thought that something like FCP could do with moving to 64 bit.

Well, FCP is due for an upgrade and I'm hoping it will be a full re-write specifically to take advantage of the new os.

I've always felt that snow leopard was really being done for 2 reasons:

1. move to 64 bit and the general 'future'

2. give a huge huge bump to the pro-apps line and the like (adobe stuff etc).

the os and software not using all cores is silly when using the FCS. it takes forever to do compression and rendering. too long for a computer with so many processors aka 'power'.

This is the kind of jump that could actually put FCP over the top over Avid and solidify the Mac in the adobe/graphics/multi-media realm as well. I know Adobe and others has not caught up yet, but they will. As will other pro apps in other industries.

I feel this update is more for the 'pros' in the short to medium run and for everyone else in the long haul.

chadder007

Dec 29, 2008, 10:13 AM

Hopefully with them using more of the GPU, the Black Screen of Death problem won't accelerate with the NVidia chipsets....

Rorikynn

Dec 29, 2008, 10:24 AM

I would say he has the sensible attitude. People (largey) didn't want to upgrade to Vista. XP does what people need it to on the hardware they use - and Microsoft and developers will support XP for ages to come.

Why should you upgrade just because Apple (and, as it happens, OS X developers) practically force you to? Apple has always been a "we do things our way, you either come with us or you don't" company; just look at Steve Jobs' stance on Blu-Ray! They certainly aren't pushing forward with optical discs are they (my theory: to peddle the iTunes Store...)?

Apple don't make a better product, they make an alternative product that is better in some areas, worse in others. And it doesn't stand on its own merits, Apple release adverts that bend the truth all kinds of places about Windows just to make them look better.

Yes, you have to make a trade off between supporting older systems and pushing further with newer ones. The problem I have is "pushing" us onto Leopard SP1 and charging $129.00/£83.00 for the privilege.

Apple isn't holding a gun to your head telling you to upgrade to Snow Leopard. No one is forcing you to upgrade. No one forced you to buy a Mac. If you can't afford a $129 OS upgrade every year then maybe you should worry less about *if* Snow Leopard is going to be free and more about where all the hell your money is going. It is reasonable to say that they will continue to support Leopard for another year or so. If you don't think Snow Leopard is worth the money, simply don't upgrade. Or you can jump ship from the platform altogether.

Rorikynn

Dec 29, 2008, 10:28 AM

Does anyone know if the iphone already has a GPU? I'm not really familiar with its insides.

It has a PowerVR MBX 3D. And I believe a few coprocessors that help.

MBX Lite + VGP Lite + FPU (VFP11™) + ARM1176 <--(CPU)

via Wiki

AidenShaw

Dec 29, 2008, 10:40 AM

Does anyone know if the iphone already has a GPU?

Basically, if any current device has any kind of high color bitmapped display, then somewhere inside there's a GPU. Even the Intel GMA900 is a GPU - it just happens to share a piece of silicon with the Northbridge.

Many GPUs, however, aren't powerful enough or don't have the GPGPU extensions needed to use CUDA, OpenCL or other GPGPU frameworks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPGPU

General-purpose computing on graphics processing units (GPGPU, also referred to as GPGP and to a lesser extent GP²) is the technique of using a GPU, which typically handles computation only for computer graphics, to perform computation in applications traditionally handled by the CPU.

It is made possible by the addition of programmable stages and higher precision arithmetic to the rendering pipelines, which allows software developers to use stream processing on non-graphics data.

Most modern GPUs can do some non-graphics computation, even if they aren't GPGPUs. For example, virtually all current GPUs can offload MPEG, AVC or WMA video decoding.

So, I think the question that you wanted to ask is:

Does anyone know if the iphone already has an OpenCL capable GPU?

For a much more thorough discussion of GPGPUs, see the paper [http://graphics.idav.ucdavis.edu/publications/print_pub?pub_id=907]A Survey of General-Purpose Computation on Graphics Hardware[/url]

Sweetfeld28

Dec 29, 2008, 10:46 AM

Hehe, it's Infinity by Guru Josh, from back in the early 1990s. ;)

Sweet. Thank you.

ATimson

Dec 29, 2008, 11:12 AM

HTML support is horrible in message bodies, and you are not even able to use HTML in messages. You honestly are unable to create a link in the body of a message.
That is a good thing. E-mail is meant to be plain text; whoever came up with the idea of including HTML in e-mail is responsible for a good deal of grief.

wavelayer

Dec 29, 2008, 11:15 AM

The ipod touch is the single greatest piece of tech I've ever owned. Every day I pick up the little "tablet" and look stuff up online, check my email, use the apps: netflix, iTV, paypal, ebay, weather, calendar. I like being able to watch itunes videos on my tv (yes the cable is overpriced). I hardly use it for music, although it's nice to have that ability. It's a great device.

brent0saurus

Dec 29, 2008, 11:28 AM

maybe i'm wrong, but i thought one plan for snow leopard was to reduce the size of applications, and all of those were huge. I'm pretty sure the mail.app size is relative to your inbox, but ichat was like 60 mb or something? I'm running tiger and it's 6.5 mb

is this just because we're still in beta?

Brandonmeier

Dec 29, 2008, 12:05 PM

What are the chances snow leopard is released with the new Imacs?

Mal

Dec 29, 2008, 12:17 PM

That is a good thing. E-mail is meant to be plain text; whoever came up with the idea of including HTML in e-mail is responsible for a good deal of grief.

No, the idiots who use flashing colors and crazy effects are responsible for that grief. Providing more formatting options is not the problem. Inserting a link in an email, for instance, is a very useful thing (though most clients can interpret links in a plaintext email now).

maybe i'm wrong, but i thought one plan for snow leopard was to reduce the size of applications, and all of those were huge. I'm pretty sure the mail.app size is relative to your inbox, but ichat was like 60 mb or something? I'm running tiger and it's 6.5 mb

is this just because we're still in beta?

In Leopard, iChat is 114.5 MB (at least on my computer). 60MB is a pretty good slim down from that size, though obviously still an increase from the version you're using. Remember though that there's a lot of new stuff added since then.

Mail.app is the same size regardless of what email you have, because that's not stored in the application bundle, it's stored in the user library.

jW

sporadicMotion

Dec 29, 2008, 12:23 PM

is it just me or is the time and other menu icons on that side smaller then the rest :s

yup, it's showcasing a feature...

Eric S.

Dec 29, 2008, 12:29 PM

What are the chances snow leopard is released with the new Imacs?

Zero, unless the new iMacs are not released for another six months.

econoline06

Dec 29, 2008, 12:38 PM

Fingers crossed for the nVidia 9400GM in an updated Mac mini.

I would seriously consider purchasing one if this happens! The mini was a hot little machine (literally if you ran UT2004 ;) ) when it had a dedicated graphics chip.

econoline06

Dec 29, 2008, 12:39 PM

econoline06

Dec 29, 2008, 12:42 PM

im excited, i pray that its a free update tho, like 10.1

also, whats the song on the second video? i believe its from a matrix score, but i looked through all of mine and i cant find it! and its driving me crazy! help please :)

Yeah its from the Matrix alright, its on the original soundtrack, man I cannot think of the name right now sorry :(

econoline06

Dec 29, 2008, 12:45 PM

InkMaster

Dec 29, 2008, 12:47 PM

Yeah its from the Matrix alright, its on the original soundtrack, man I cannot think of the name right now sorry :(

Clubbed to Death (Kurayamino Mix) by Rob D. :)

hmm... looks like it was taken down from iTunes along w/ all the other Matrix soundtracks... booo :/

Krevnik

Dec 29, 2008, 01:20 PM

I can't wait for Phil to explain why it was so wonderful that 10.5 gave full support for 64-bit, but without requiring new 64-bit drivers and 32-bit compatibility mode - but now 10.6 gives true full support for 64-bit, but requires all new drivers and 32-bit compatibility mode.

Apple 10.5: Ship 32-bit kernel, and knock Windows for the issues that a 64-bit kernel introduces.

Apple 10.6: Ship 64-bit kernel, and admit that Windows did it right the first time?

Realize this: XCode 3.0 and 10.5 let you develop 64-bit drivers. The APIs got tweaked to handle writing one set of code for 32/64-bit drivers in 10.5. Apple probably even tested, but didn't ship the 64-bit kernel to make sure developers writing against them would be doing the right thing.

As long as developers have been building a full UB driver since Leopard's launch, moving to a 64-bit kernel will not be nearly as painful as it was for Windows where everyone had to rewrite their drivers for a whole new API that didn't even exist prior to Vista (64-bit Vista drivers had extra requirements that 32-bit Vista drivers, and 64-bit XP drivers never had). Anyone building a 32/64-bit UB driver today for Leopard will be ready for Snow Leopard without doing anything.

32-bit compatibility mode has always been part of Leopard. Safari is built as a 32-bit app, as is System Preferences so that they can still load plugins correctly that haven't been made into a 32/64-bit UB yet. 10.6 will likely still have Safari launch in 32-bit mode, and System Preferences (IMO) should as well until 10.7.

Krevnik

Dec 29, 2008, 01:37 PM

just look at Steve Jobs' stance on Blu-Ray! They certainly aren't pushing forward with optical discs are they (my theory: to peddle the iTunes Store...)?

Tinfoil hat much? Blu-ray isn't getting pushed by very many companies outside the ones making the media, the players, and the content. All of which are trying to get a return on their investment in making the format in the first place.

When Steve Jobs said that Blu-ray was a bag of hurt in terms of licensing, he was right. There is no central licensing authority. You have to run around to Sony, TDK, Microsoft, Sun, AACS, and so on to get licenses to all the different patents involved right now. And getting cleared by AACS is a total b*tch right now. You basically have to prove that the disc content remains encrypted from disc to display, and that your software is resistant to cracks and has no known vulnerabilities before they will give you the license and key to operate the software to playback the discs. It... is... a... mess. DVD was never this bad in terms of restrictions, patents, license issues, but even it had problems taking off in manufacturing until a central license authority was setup in the late 90s.

By contrast, Apple jumped on-board MPEG-4 right off the bat because of the dead-simple licensing scheme. X cents per encoder, X cents per decoder, paid to a central licensing authority, with a cap of X million dollars per year. By using it everywhere, Apple just pays the cap price every year.

In all seriousness, this is one decision I agree with: Don't get sucked into the patent hell that Blu-ray currently is. I like the technology, but the reality behind it is one that isn't very friendly to companies wanting to include it into their hardware unless they are already patent owners on it.

As for the rest of it... don't upgrade then. Seriously. Everyone on here is screaming that Apple forces them to upgrade by dragging them along. People on this board are still running Tiger, my family still runs Tiger. If they can do it, so can you. :)

silverboy31

Dec 29, 2008, 01:53 PM

Totally, totally submitted this last night!!

+1 biscuit for self

But our German friends should leak more pertinent information through these screenshots- although no much has changed, the OS build number is important (and missing)! We did get some OS X application build numbers though.

You are correct these are old pictures from the wwdc build the latest build is 10A222 and was released to us ADC members on Dec 2/ 08 thats all i can tell you...... if you look at the prefpanes there is a new energy saver icon,this build still has the old one......

Saladinos

Dec 29, 2008, 02:22 PM

I wonder about this myself. I also wonder though, how will Apple demo this with so many features not visible to the average consumer's eye?

They'll show some benchmarks that show how much faster Snow Leopard is, maybe some visual demos if there are dramatic differences (like, 2-3x). They'll talk a little bit about 64-bit and how far they are ahead of Microsoft. It'll be short, but the numbers they'll throw at you will make you agree that this was a good move.

I can't wait. My BlackBook is a little under-powered as it is! Anything more I can extract from it is great.

milo

Dec 29, 2008, 02:26 PM

This story isn't particularly newsworthy, apple has told us all along that there will be little if any visible changes.

So is there any new info on whether 10.6 will be intel only or support PPC?

Look at how much smaller Mail and iCal are- amazing!

Hasn't this been debunked? The files are smaller not from optimization, but simply because they don't include all the many foreign language versions? And if that's the case, the sizes will go right back up for the release version. Nothing particularly amazing at all once you find out why they are smaller.

If there is no 64-bit Carbon support, then what will happen to Apple's pro apps that are still written in Carbon; are they going to stay 32-bit? I would have thought that something like FCP could do with moving to 64 bit.

Apps like FC and Logic are the ones that most desperately need to move to 64 bit, but the rumors say the Logic team is fighting a 64 bit move tooth and nail. I hope Apple finally forces them to get their act together and make the switch, I'm sick of the lame memory limitations in Logic (and the hacks they've tried to get around the memory limit aren't good enough).

Stevamundo

Dec 29, 2008, 02:54 PM

That's what he said, actually. He won't upgrade, without a compelling reason.

Not everyone has a huge wallet to throw at every upgrade on their production box. If that's a prerequisite for liking Macs, we have a problem.

Exactly! I see NO reason to upgrade to Snow Leopard, ESPECIALLY if it costs $130 like other updates.

I understand that Snow Leopard will be great for computer programmers. However I'm not a computer programmer.

Sorry, but so far I haven't seen even remotely something in SL that I would want to buy. Leopard works just fine for me!

TheSpaz

Dec 29, 2008, 03:18 PM

Exactly! I see NO reason to upgrade to Snow Leopard, ESPECIALLY if it costs $130 like other updates.

I understand that Snow Leopard will be great for computer programmers. However I'm not a computer programmer.

Sorry, but so far I haven't seen even remotely something in SL that I would want to buy. Leopard works just fine for me!

What? When Apple gives something to programmers, it's not just FOR the programmers. It allows the "programmers" to write better Apps and optimize their apps to run faster and more efficient... the "user" would need to have Snow Leopard installed to use these new updated apps (most likely). So, go ahead... don't upgrade, but you'll miss out on the cool stuff that follows Snow Leopard. There's already a ton of apps that ONLY work on Leopard and not Tiger.

NT1440

Dec 29, 2008, 03:51 PM

When exactly is the keynote? anyone know when itll show up to stream/download on itunes?

I look forward to SL

robogobo

Dec 29, 2008, 03:52 PM

god I love this stuff.

wizard

Dec 29, 2008, 04:05 PM

Apple could just be keeping things a little close to the vest and not distributing builds to devs with features that they don't want to be leaked. Look what they did with Leopard.

Who knows?
I'm sure there might be a surprise or two but nothing really major. The problem is this, while being undersold by Apple the changes coming in Snow Leopard are rather major. Apple will want to minimize the changes visible to the users to stabilize the release. In other words expect SL to be a bit buggy and needing a service release or two to firm up. You would not want to make major changes to your apps when the whole OS and the libraries those apps are built against are going through a major change.

At the most you can expect that apps that aren't currently Cocao will be. This is actually a major update in and of itself but for some will be required. Here I'm thinking finder (all ready rumored) and things like iTunes. These apps will transition to the new 64 bit libraries and features but may not have a lot of new capabilities beyound that.

From what I know right now this should be looked at as a transitional release. That is a platform upon which Apple and the other developers can deliver next generation software on. If everything comes together as it appears that Apple wants, SL will be a very interesting platform for developers. In a very true sense a next generation platform.

Dave

volfreak

Dec 29, 2008, 04:25 PM

I, too, am looking forward to the under-the-hood changes as well as Exchange support. While I like Entourage, I don't like it nearly as much as Mail or iCal. Having the ability to have a nice UI to talk to the Exchange Server at work will be much better. And I can't wait to see the performance on my 1-month old MBP. :D

wizard

Dec 29, 2008, 04:28 PM

Exactly! I see NO reason to upgrade to Snow Leopard, ESPECIALLY if it costs $130 like other updates.

Well we don't know how much it will cost. Apple could very well lower the cost for any number of reasons.

I understand that Snow Leopard will be great for computer programmers. However I'm not a computer programmer.

I'm not all that certain it will be great for programmers, many will have to work a lot harder to benefit from it. In any event it is the wrong attitude to have as a user.

SL will provide for more interesting and potentially faster apps. This in a nut schell is the reason for the common user to update. There is also talk about SL itself being a faster OS. Now all of this is great but I don't expect all these benefits to arrive for the user right a way. Rather I would expect updated apps to arrive continously over the months and weeks after SL is first released. So for the common user a instantaneous jump to SL isn't required and may not even be a good idea, especially if stable performance is wanted. Hopefully by 10.6.2 SL will be stable enough that you and most users will want to have it installed.

What I'm saying is that SL could/will be very attractive to users once it is stable and has the right selection of user apps. Some things ought to run a lot faster on modern hardware.

Which brings up the final consideration. There is a huge open question as to what hardware will actually benefit from SL. For many it might never be worthwhile to update. It will pay to wait for and understand the details.

Sorry, but so far I haven't seen even remotely something in SL that I would want to buy. Leopard works just fine for me!

Which is fine. Think of SL as an enabler for new apps, new performance levels and new library features. How soon all those features get delivered into software you actually use is an open question. All I reccomend is keeping an open mind.

Dave

MShock

Dec 29, 2008, 04:31 PM

SL looks ok - I wish the desktop and finder would resemble the iPhone interface a little more, with the black glass look and all. With the Finder rewrite, I hope to see options in system preferences to make it more functional like Path Finder. Clearly, a ZFS update would be nice! I don't think they will deploy that with the GUI until 10.7 or 10.8. That's server only from the command line until then...

RBR2

Dec 29, 2008, 04:35 PM

Um... isn't that the point of Snow Leopard? Little new changes that are visible, but big changes that aren't?

Indeed, apart from the technical aspects of the 64 bit OS, there are still a lot of rough edges left in Leopard that are in need of being cleaned up. My experience with Leopard has yet to match that of Tiger as far as stability and trouble free operation is concerned. Leopard has gotten better in the last few dot x updates, but I would much rather see Snow Leopard be polished up from the start that get a little more eye candy.

Amdahl

Dec 29, 2008, 05:14 PM

Ah, I see the Dark Hand of censorship has touched the thread. It would at least be honest if the person who did it would admit it.

But I respect the remaining readers of this thread don't want to follow this topic, so it is over.

wizard

Dec 29, 2008, 05:20 PM

I AM a developer, and self proclaimed nerd as well. One of the biggest things probably in snow leopard is Apple's latest from R&D, Open CL. What this means is the GPU can take a bunch of load off of the CPU. This will give your computer a crazy speed boost, and as long as you have a GPU in your mac you won't need new hardware.

That is so misleading as to be disgusting. For a GPU to work with OpenCL it has to be compatible. Even at that for a compatible GPU to help significantly it needs to have enough execution units free to accelerate an app. So even if an older GPU is OpenCSl compatible it may not significantly accelerate specific apps.

They're also making it easier for devs to use more than one core. Both of these together allow apple to give us the eye candy they love demonstrating, and it allows devs to make much better apps. It'd be like owning a supercomputer in terms of speed.

For the right sort of app sure, you will get what was once supercomputer performance, but not on all apps.

The problem is this, not all apps translate well to highly parallel environments. More importantly not all programmers have the required skills. Apple is providing tools for the programmer to leverage but like a hammer many will end up with sore thumbs coming to grips with it's usage. SO might actually force some programmers into early retirement, a rubber room or a trip to the south seas.

Also, the technology will of course move over to the iphone at some point, thus making it an extremely powerful little device, even more so than it is already.

I'm sure it will as some of what is going into SL is coming back from the iPhone. Most of the advantages of SL though will require a new generation of ARM hardware with OpenCL compliant GPUs and hopefully multiple CPUs. IPhone certainly needs upgrades and true multitasking, unfortunately the current platform can't handle that.

Does anyone know if the iphone already has a GPU? I'm not really familiar with its insides.

Yes it does but to the best of my knowledge it is not OpenCL compliant. In any event the important thing with Mobile OS is that it continues to expand to better support a new generation of devices. The most important thing here is solid support for background apps / multitasking, hopefully in a way that doesn't impact foreground app usability.

Right now that is one of iPhone's greatest weaknesses. I understand why background apps are not there but that doesn't mean I like it. Further I'm not sure that OpenCL would improve performance enough to provide for good multitasking. It looks like a whole new generation of iPhone is required.

Dave

Eric S.

Dec 29, 2008, 05:58 PM

Exactly! I see NO reason to upgrade to Snow Leopard, ESPECIALLY if it costs $130 like other updates.

I understand that Snow Leopard will be great for computer programmers. However I'm not a computer programmer.

I think you have this backwards. As I see it, the idea is to enable the OS to take advantage of the performance capability of the hardware so that application developers don't have to code to a particular HW configuration.

Sorry, but so far I haven't seen even remotely something in SL that I would want to buy. Leopard works just fine for me!

It probably is the case that the real benefits from Snow Leopard's new OS technologies will not be seen until a future generation of multi- (i.e., more than 2) processor systems.

wizard

Dec 29, 2008, 06:18 PM

Thanks for putting this info out there. People need to know whatbsort of sleaze balls they are dealing with each time they buy a BluRay disk! In the past I've tried to highlight some of the issues but you have put a far better twist on it! For that I thank you.

Tinfoil hat much? Blu-ray isn't getting pushed by very many companies outside the ones making the media, the players, and the content. All of which are trying to get a return on their investment in making the format in the first place.

I would extend that to say that they are trying to get a return in a very un American way. In effect they are trying to wipe out rights that we as Americans have had, under copyright law, for more than 200 years.

People who go about buy BluRay movies should be seen as traitors and treated as such. I know some will whine that that is an excessive characterization but think about it folks you are burning up your long standing rights for the ability to view a movie a couple of times.

When Steve Jobs said that Blu-ray was a bag of hurt in terms of licensing, he was right. There is no central licensing authority. You have to run around to Sony, TDK, Microsoft, Sun, AACS, and so on to get licenses to all the different patents involved right now. And getting cleared by AACS is a total b*tch right now. You basically have to prove that the disc content remains encrypted from disc to display, and that your software is resistant to cracks and has no known vulnerabilities before they will give you the license and key to operate the software to playback the discs. It... is... a... mess. DVD was never this bad in terms of restrictions, patents, license issues, but even it had problems taking off in manufacturing until a central license authority was setup in the late 90s.

People need to digest the above. Having such a hamstrung system would not be good for Apple especially if the are in the content creation business. Further some of the crap in the latest MS operating systems is there because of the requirements alluded to above. Signing up for BluRay, at this point, just means Apple would have to crap up it's OS too.

Right now the only solution I see open to Apple would be a hardware pipeline that can't be seen by the OS. Even then you have problems supporting normal OS features on your system windows. I just don't see an option available to Apple that doesn't involve hardware, maybe that is what PA Semi is up to.

By contrast, Apple jumped on-board MPEG-4 right off the bat because of the dead-simple licensing scheme. X cents per encoder, X cents per decoder, paid to a central licensing authority, with a cap of X million dollars per year. By using it everywhere, Apple just pays the cap price every year.

More importantly the technology is very competitive with BluRay.

The biggest problem I've seen with Apples approach is that you still have to store those files someplace. Depending on the conversion quality and length they can be large. The answer here seems to be the downward spiral in flash prices. A Compact Flash or SDHC card can now easily handle backups.

In all seriousness, this is one decision I agree with: Don't get sucked into the patent hell that Blu-ray currently is. I like the technology, but the reality behind it is one that isn't very friendly to companies wanting to include it into their hardware unless they are already patent owners on it.

More importantly it is not at all friendly for the consumer. The attitude of Sony seems to be the worst of the bunch with respect to the consumer, they really blew it with the restrictions put on PlayStation 3 which got locked down so tight that even Linux wasn't as usable as it could have been.

As for the rest of it... don't upgrade then. Seriously. Everyone on here is screaming that Apple forces them to upgrade by dragging them along. People on this board are still running Tiger, my family still runs Tiger. If they can do it, so can you. :)
This is also good advice. More so to really benefit from SL you would need to have newer hardware that supports OpenCL and has at least dual processors. For a lot of people SL will be the start of their hardware becoming obsolete. Mostly due to not being able to effectively run a new generation of software. The good news is that it could be years before we see something dramatic enough that people will feel compelled to buy new hardware.

Dave

wizard

Dec 29, 2008, 06:38 PM

I think you have this backwards. As I see it, the idea is to enable the OS to take advantage of the performance capability of the hardware so that application developers don't have to code to a particular HW configuration.

That is the way many are hoping it works out. Ideally the need to specify a specific GPU goes out the window.

The only problem here is your performance metric. Just because you have this nice dual core machine with an OpenCL compatible GPU does not imply that you will have an acceptable level of performance. It will be interesting to see how Apple and the software companies address this. Specifing the GPU itself might not work anymore due to the interaction of the GPU and CPU that OpenCL enables.

It probably is the case that the real benefits from Snow Leopard's new OS technologies will not be seen until a future generation of multi- (i.e., more than 2) processor systems.

You won't see a huge benefit until a new generation of software is built for SL. SL won't benefit an app that has never been designed for parallel processing. The only exception here being if it can benefit from libraries that are optimized. SL will benefit multithreaded apps but again how much over the current environment is an open question. I still maintain that for apps to truly leverage SL they will have to be rewriten.

Given that that is done and the app is one of those that can really benefit from parallelbl execution of threads or the special characteristics of a GPU we might see a speed up on more advance hardware. The thing is a lot of current hardware can provide this sort of speed up too.

Dave

twoodcc

Dec 29, 2008, 07:40 PM

can't wait to hear about snow leopard at macworld!

inkswamp

Dec 29, 2008, 08:03 PM

Without the Jobs RDF, I'm just not feeling good about Snow Leopard. Perhaps I'll be so transfixed on Tubbys mullet, that it might have the same effect, when he describes Snow Leopard to us next week.

Sigh.

There's the dividing line between the personality cult Mac users and those of us who are just in it for the cool new things Apple will unveil. I don't care who does it. I'm not that interested in the presenter--although personally, I don't see Phil's stage presence as any particular detriment with it comes to showing off Apple's new stuff. In fact, it will be nice to see the buzz afterward without having to hear the anti-Apple crowd blather on about how it's all just Steve Jobs and his skill with winning over crowds.

liptonlover

Dec 29, 2008, 08:08 PM

They'll show some benchmarks that show how much faster Snow Leopard is, maybe some visual demos if there are dramatic differences (like, 2-3x). They'll talk a little bit about 64-bit and how far they are ahead of Microsoft. It'll be short, but the numbers they'll throw at you will make you agree that this was a good move.

I can't wait. My BlackBook is a little under-powered as it is! Anything more I can extract from it is great.

OpenCL is rumored to speed things up by as much as 100%... I think there'll be plenty of visual running demos for us. Also, there may be plenty of visible upgrades that we don't know about, there have been rumors of a 3D finder, which could very well happen with such a dramatically faster leopard.

NT1440

Dec 29, 2008, 08:09 PM

OpenCL is rumored to speed things up by as much as 100%... I think there'll be plenty of visual running demos for us. Also, there may be plenty of visible upgrades that we don't know about, there have been rumors of a 3D finder, which could very well happen with such a dramatically faster leopard.
100% for certain types of apps, that should be pointed out.

4armshiver

Dec 29, 2008, 08:10 PM

Snow Leopard seems to me like an admission that Leopard needs improvements and has flaws that need fixing. Not quite the flawless OS that the marketing dept tout it as uh.

I welcome the improvements as Leopard has some major performance issues IME. It's a shame they need a .1 release to do this though and it will be interesting to see how many users cough up the cash for the upgrade.

Your foolish if you think an OS can be perfect. You can always improve on your OS, and its the marketing teams job to tell you its perfect. Even an marketing exec from Microsoft will tell you Vista is perfect. Wanting to improve the behind the scene components of an OS shouldn't be argued about. The real question here is of course the price tag. :confused:

liptonlover

Dec 29, 2008, 08:10 PM

hence the "by as much as" :)

Stevamundo

Dec 29, 2008, 08:50 PM

What? When Apple gives something to programmers, it's not just FOR the programmers. It allows the "programmers" to write better Apps and optimize their apps to run faster and more efficient... the "user" would need to have Snow Leopard installed to use these new updated apps (most likely). So, go ahead... don't upgrade, but you'll miss out on the cool stuff that follows Snow Leopard. There's already a ton of apps that ONLY work on Leopard and not Tiger.

Whoopie! Just give me the money for this upgrade than I'll be glad to upgrade.

Until then don't criticize anyone who thinks that every “major” upgrade that Apple throws out there just isn't worth the money.

ppc750fx

Dec 30, 2008, 12:09 AM

I'm not a developer and my computer runs very fast already. Apple is going to have to do a lot more than that to convince me to upgrade.

They don't have to.

The games that use OpenCL will.

The apps that make use of GrandCentral for vastly improved performance will.

The apps that are built as 64-bit only will.

Etc.

AidenShaw

Dec 30, 2008, 12:17 AM

The games that use OpenCL will.

If you're a gamer....

The apps that make use of GrandCentral for vastly improved performance will.

Although most of the important video/audio/imaging apps already use existing threading frameworks to exploit multi-core systems....

The apps that are built as 64-bit only will.

...when they arrive in 2011, after 10.7 is out and all of the 10.5, PPC and Core 32-bit systems are dead.

Not that many mainstream apps will immediately abandon the 32-bit customer base to jump on 10.6-only applications.

(Don't get me wrong, the new parallel programing frameworks are a good idea - but don't expect great things within days of the 10.6 release. It will be a couple of years before they hit the mainstream.)

Eric S.

Dec 30, 2008, 01:36 AM

You won't see a huge benefit until a new generation of software is built for SL. SL won't benefit an app that has never been designed for parallel processing. The only exception here being if it can benefit from libraries that are optimized. SL will benefit multithreaded apps but again how much over the current environment is an open question. I still maintain that for apps to truly leverage SL they will have to be rewriten.

Hopefully we will learn a lot more about Grand Central at MWSF. So far Apple's descriptions of it have been pretty vague, but it seems to have two aspects. The first is to make it easier for programmers to develop multithreaded apps, which I think is what you are referring to. But Apple has also promised that Grand Central will improve overall performance by making better use of multiple cores for all OS operations. That is what I mean when I say we won't really see the performance benefit until we get multicore systems.

ikir

Dec 30, 2008, 02:44 AM

Apple is doing a great job with SL, some users simply haven't the brain needed to understand. Anyway is you are happy with leopard, good, upgrade isn't necessary. I'm not a developer but having Grand Central and OpenCL is a big jump forward.

liptonlover

Dec 30, 2008, 10:23 AM

What I'm thinking is this will give apple a HUGE boost in the gaming market, which stands to gain alot out of this upgrade. I can't wait to see what happens.

Oh and don't forget that when microsoft finally gets this out as well, Apple will convince us that as soon as they found out apple had "invented" this new technology, they scrambled to clone it. :D

ATimson

Dec 30, 2008, 10:28 AM

What I'm thinking is this will give apple a HUGE boost in the gaming market, which stands to gain alot out of this upgrade.
Maybe. But it's not worth the effort of native game developers like Blizzard, because they can't use it in the Windows versions yet. Maybe Aspyr might see some use from it in their ports, but they may not be around long enough to actually use it.

liptonlover

Dec 30, 2008, 10:34 AM

They may still though, because then at least some of their users are having a much improved experience. And then as their pc counterparts get jealous, the mac gaming community grows. All it'll take is one decently well-known game to kick things off, because no one will want to be left behind.

AidenShaw

Dec 30, 2008, 10:58 AM

Oh and don't forget that when microsoft finally gets this out as well, Apple will convince us that as soon as they found out apple had "invented" this new technology, they scrambled to clone it. :D

CUDA and ATI Stream are already available on Windows and Linux. Shipping. In use.

Who is doing the copying?

And, by the way, isn't the point of "open" software (as in OpenCL) so that all systems can have the same APIs?

And yes, improvements in multi-core threading frameworks have been on the Windows timeline for a long time. Some of them are in the Windows7 alpha kits that tens of thousands of people have.

liptonlover

Dec 30, 2008, 11:09 AM

Sorry don't know what CUDA or ATI are... guess it's time for the wiki. I was referring specifically to OpenCL, which btw I'm too stupid to realize is open source.

AidenShaw

Dec 30, 2008, 11:48 AM

Sorry don't know what CUDA or ATI are... guess it's time for the wiki. I was referring specifically to OpenCL, which btw I'm too stupid to realize is open source.

CUDA is Nvidia's GPGPU set of APIs. "ATI Stream" is ATI's GPGPU set of APIs.

OpenCL is basically a single API, which an implementation can call CUDA if running on Nvidia GPGPUs, or Stream if running on ATI.

OpenCL is good in that a program doesn't have to know which brand of graphics card is in the system, or its exact capabilities.

Microsoft is building a similar GPGPU abstraction into DirectX - so that DirectX programs can use GPGPUs without needing to know the details.

Hopefully, we'll see an OpenCL library for Windows and Linux as well.

roamy

Dec 30, 2008, 12:38 PM

I can't wait until LeopardVista is replaced!! I am almost ready to reload tiger.

Does anyone know if the new ops sys will be "intel only"

thanks

iMacmatician

Dec 30, 2008, 01:18 PM

So is there any new info on whether 10.6 will be intel only or support PPC?I'm pretty sure it's Intel only.

SL looks ok - I wish the desktop and finder would resemble the iPhone interface a little more, with the black glass look and all. With the Finder rewrite, I hope to see options in system preferences to make it more functional like Path Finder. Clearly, a ZFS update would be nice! I don't think they will deploy that with the GUI until 10.7 or 10.8. That's server only from the command line until then...Totally agree! I wished and waited so long for Leopard to have the black UI of various HUDs, Time Machine, and the iPhone. Imagine my disappointment at WWDC 2007 when Leopard's UI went only a half step forward.

I too think 10.7 will give a bunch of visual changes. The black UI (or something like it) and many cool but subtle animation effects are what I'm wishing for. Hopefully I won't be disappointed this time. :D

http://gk.czo.hu/gallery/GALLERY/SnowLeopard10A222/Screenshot%2012-15-08%201.51.39%20AM.png

Looks like Grapher is finally getting a UI update. Hopefully it gets a functionality upgrade and several bug fixes, too.

inkswamp

Dec 30, 2008, 02:39 PM

(Don't get me wrong, the new parallel programing frameworks are a good idea - but don't expect great things within days of the 10.6 release. It will be a couple of years before they hit the mainstream.)

Exactly! Anyone expecting Apple to pull some rabbits out of their hat with 10.6 are going to be disappointed, I suspect. It seems to me Apple is laying the groundwork for the future with 10.6, which is very cool when you stop and think about it. The last time they laid groundwork like this was 10.0. That didn't immediately yield results but look where it has gone.

I can't wait until LeopardVista is replaced!!

:rolleyes:

TheSpaz

Dec 30, 2008, 03:26 PM

Why do people bag on Leopard so much? For me, it's been an awesome operation system. I had a few snags here and there, but to compare it to Vista is WAY off.

PurrBall

Dec 30, 2008, 03:53 PM

Why do people bag on Leopard so much? For me, it's been an awesome operation system. I had a few snags here and there, but to compare it to Vista is WAY off.

I've had more problems with Leopard than I had with Vista.

Oh wait, I didn't have any with Vista. Guess I'm lucky.

Povilas

Dec 30, 2008, 04:41 PM

I've had more problems with Leopard than I had with Vista.

Oh wait, I didn't have any with Vista. Guess I'm lucky.

Any with Vista? Stop the BS. First it's impossible, second everybody had or still have poblems with Vista and third Leopard is way better than Vista i'm a switcher so i know exactly ;) I have MacBook with Tiger, i never reinstalled the system for two years. I have iMac which came with Leopard and it's also running from that day without reinstall. I never installed Mac OS X from those DVDs. I had problems, but not like with vista. In my opinion Vista is a problem and lots of people say the same.

Eric S.

Dec 30, 2008, 06:18 PM

I can't wait until LeopardVista is replaced!!

Get ready to be disappointed then, because Snow Leopard is Leopard, with some new OS technologies added. If you're expecting the UI to be much different than Leopard it won't be, and if you're expecting SL to be more stable it won't be either, at least initially.

Quillz

Dec 30, 2008, 08:47 PM

Any with Vista? Stop the BS. First it's impossible, second everybody had or still have poblems with Vista and third Leopard is way better than Vista i'm a switcher so i know exactly ;) I have MacBook with Tiger, i never reinstalled the system for two years. I have iMac which came with Leopard and it's also running from that day without reinstall. I never installed Mac OS X from those DVDs. I had problems, but not like with vista. In my opinion Vista is a problem and lots of people say the same.
I'm also a switcher and I'd like to cut through your BS and introduce you to the concept of "different users, different experiences." Maybe you've had some problems with Vista, but I, and many others, haven't. It's amazing that you can make a wholly wrong blanket statement such as "second everybody had or still have poblems (sic) with Vista." It's quite clear you're nothing more than a blind Apple fanboy who doesn't know very much about the two operating systems.

Quillz

Dec 30, 2008, 08:49 PM

Why do people bag on Leopard so much? For me, it's been an awesome operation system. I had a few snags here and there, but to compare it to Vista is WAY off.
People bag on Windows Vista because it's different from Windows XP, which worked well.

People bag on Mac OS X Leopard because it's different from Mac OS X Tiger, which worked well.

See the trend here? Neither Vista or Leopard are "bad," in fact they work fine. But, people hate change and don't want to lose what they are comfortable using. Windows XP and Tiger both had their share of problems, but people have short memories. They never seemed as drastic as the "problems" that face Vista and Leopard.

liptonlover

Dec 31, 2008, 09:21 AM

The good news is both companies are working on "new" hopefully fixed versions of their respective products. Can't remember what the vista replacement is called right now... though as far as I know snow leopard is the one with all the dramatic upgrades, not sure what the new vista has.

kastenbrust

Dec 31, 2008, 10:29 AM

Mal

Dec 31, 2008, 10:45 AM

What worries me is not that Snow Leopard has little new, because we all know that and were expecting that, but that the uptake of 64bit software with Windows XP and Vista 64 bit has been incredibly slow. Very few people have actually installed the 64bit versions of the operating system, and if you have then there isnt a lot of 64bit software manufactured specially for 64bit operating systems.

Another problem is that there is hardly any drivers available for 64bit windows when it comes to hardware, even new hardware such as my new Sony video camera, less than a year old, wont work with my computer, which is very annoying.

I hope this trend doesn't continue with Mac and Snow Leopard, Apple needs to get almost everyone who can, to swap over to Snow Leopard somehow, so those who have wont get left in the dark.

The 64bit Windows problems stem from the fact that Windows is offered in both versions. Apple will only offer one version of their operating system, and even if it runs on 32-bit systems (I bet it will), it will always run in 64-bit mode on 64-bit systems (probably only installing the 64-bit kernel, though there will be that 32-bit compatibility mode). The incentive for companies to make their software 64-bit compatible will thus be much higher, and we'll see a far greater level of adoption if Apple's history with these types of shifts holds true.

jW

diamond.g

Dec 31, 2008, 11:27 AM

The 64bit Windows problems stem from the fact that Windows is offered in both versions. Apple will only offer one version of their operating system, and even if it runs on 32-bit systems (I bet it will), it will always run in 64-bit mode on 64-bit systems (probably only installing the 64-bit kernel, though there will be that 32-bit compatibility mode). The incentive for companies to make their software 64-bit compatible will thus be much higher, and we'll see a far greater level of adoption if Apple's history with these types of shifts holds true.

jW

By definition Apple would have to provide two versions of the kernel as compatibility mode would be in fact a 32-bit kernel. So in the end Apple would still have the same problems Microsoft had.

liptonlover

Dec 31, 2008, 11:50 AM

I think we've seen the last of 32 bit. Apple may have limited support or something, but when they switch they'll make it a real switch, not a choice. The best way to switch in my opinion though, is to get the word out that the next OS will not support 32 bit at all, get your software to work on 64 bit mode right now.

AidenShaw

Dec 31, 2008, 02:06 PM

By definition Apple would have to provide two versions of the kernel as compatibility mode would be in fact a 32-bit kernel. So in the end Apple would still have the same problems Microsoft had.

Yep.

The best way to switch in my opinion though, is to get the word out that the next OS will not support 32 bit at all, get your software to work on 64 bit mode right now.

I hope that you mean that 10.6 will require an x64 processor, which would be a very good move (unless you have a Core Duo or Core Solo system).

If you mean that all applications must be x64, that would be a suicidal move.

ppc750fx

Dec 31, 2008, 03:57 PM

diamond.g

Dec 31, 2008, 05:24 PM

Uh... no.

While that would make compatibility easier, it's certainly not a requirement.

Wait, so you are saying that you can run a 64-bit kernel on a 32-bit system?

Cause all I was saying is supporting 32-bit systems will require a 32-bit kernel, thus leaving Apple with the same problem that Microsoft had.

Povilas

Dec 31, 2008, 06:19 PM

I'm also a switcher and I'd like to cut through your BS and introduce you to the concept of "different users, different experiences." Maybe you've had some problems with Vista, but I, and many others, haven't. It's amazing that you can make a wholly wrong blanket statement such as "second everybody had or still have poblems (sic) with Vista." It's quite clear you're nothing more than a blind Apple fanboy who doesn't know very much about the two operating systems.

Please save it ... Problems with Vista begin the second you login. The whole concept makes me sick: firewalls, anti-virus software, application installation procedure is joke nothing more compared to drag and drop on OS X for most of the apps. Fanboy? Please ... Switched in the end of 2006 and already a fanboy? And you are? Whole business sector is skipping vista and so on. So that's just a coincident.

For the record: I'v used all Microsoft operating systems starting with DOS, still use XP, which is great.