Forced to contribute to the destruction of the environment

[iVeBeenDrinkin']

So, I went to 7-11 (which is less than a half of a block from my house) to get a six pack of beer. As my name indicates, I like to drink. Anyway, there were several police officers inside, drinking coffee and eating donuts. I guess, taking a break. I thought nothing of them as I grabbed my favorite pale ale and headed toward check-out.

The clerk scanned my purchase and then went to grab a plastic bag. I told him, "I don't need the plastic bag, I am right next door."
He said, "I have to bag it, it is a law and the cops are right there."
"Fine!" I said, "I'll kill the environment for them."
I took my bagged beer and walked the 25 feet home.

Now, I am mad enough to post a new thread. I am the guy who buys the re-usable bags because I deplore using one of the least biodegradable substances known to man to carry beer 25 feet. I know I could have just not bought the beer but, should I be forced to make such a decision?

[dolphin842]

Thankfully a growing number of cities are instituting or at least considering bans on plastic bags. It might cause some inconvenience in the short term, but the Pacific Ocean already has a huge glut of plastic in it... we don't need to be adding to it.

[Sun Baked]

Think of it this way... it is covering up the number of people stopping there to grab booze.

You are beautifying the neighborhood and covering up the helping cover up the pathetic drunk problem on your street.

What is better, a drunk street guy with vomit on himself and a bottle of Ripple in a brown bag... or a passed out drunk redneck swimming in vomit with 20 cans of empty beer cans around him?

Would really make you sad if you really knew hot many people around you stop there and walk home with booze if these wasn't a sack around the booze.

[aethelbert]

I'm yet to understand why anyone wants plastic bags to begin with. Paper is where it's at.

[dolphin842]

Or maybe a re-usable cloth bag? Here in the States we can spend $700 billion for 'troubled assets' and give people $20 coupons for digital converter boxes... surely we could give a <$1 cloth bag to each citizen who wants one? But I digress... :p

[iVeBeenDrinkin']

Think of it this way... it is covering up the number of people stopping there to grab booze.

You are beautifying the neighborhood and covering up the helping cover up the pathetic drunk problem on your street.

What is better, a drunk street guy with vomit on himself and a bottle of Ripple in a brown bag... or a passed out drunk redneck swimming in vomit with 20 cans of empty beer cans around him?

Would really make you sad if you really knew hot many people around you stop there and walk home with booze if these wasn't a sack around the booze.

This statement does not really apply. I would gladly accept "brown-bagging" my alcoholic beverage purchase, to conceal it, if I had been given the choice. Those brown paper bags are much more enviro-friendly. Sadly, I was not given this choice at all.

Next time, I'll take my re-usable shopping bag in and take all 6 beers out of the cardboard six pack, and put them in my re-usable shopping bag. Then, I'll ask them to recycle the cardboard. That way, no one will see my 25 feet of criminal activity.

[cleanup]

I'm yet to understand why anyone wants plastic bags to begin with. Paper is where it's at.

Anything non-reusable is not usually okay by my standards. I only take a plastic bag if I don't have anything on me and have to carry whatever it is a large distance (and if there's a lot of it/it's large). Otherwise I shove everything in my messenger bag and/or canvas bags I bought from my local grocery store.

[garybUK]

Keep the bag and next time you go take said bag with you :) re-using it!

Or just put it in your plastic bin for recycling.

[iVeBeenDrinkin']

Keep the bag and next time you go take said bag with you :) re-using it!

Or just put it in your plastic bin for recycling.

Good point, and I agree with you. I will use and recycle this bag. However, in the end, it would have been much more enviro-friendly if I did not have to use the bag at all.

[iBlue]

I'm yet to understand why anyone wants plastic bags to begin with. Paper is where it's at.

Not everywhere offers paper. When I lived in the US I liked paper over plastic too but I'm in the UK now. Other than department stores and some other retail/non-food places I have never seen a paper bag anywhere. The whole "paper or plastic" thing seems to be more of a thing in north america, at least as far as I can tell.

I am not sure how much better paper is really, especially if it's not recycled. The planet need trees too. The problem isn't so easy to fix when there are this many damn people on the planet.



We take resuable bags with us when we go shopping. It's the thing to do now, innit? :D

[xUKHCx]

Or just put it in your plastic bin for recycling.

I'd be surprised if your local council accepted carrier bags in the roadside plastics recycling bin. You might want to check with them because you could actually be doing a disservice. The larger supermarkets accept plastic bag for recycling.

We personally use large canvas bags which so far have lasted for 3 years which have saved approximately 1000 plastic bags.

[yoyo5280]

What kind of BS law is that? Stuff must be in a bag? or is it just alchohol.

MyBags (reusable cloth bags) are big...ish here. Still alotta plastic. But everybody needs their designer reusable shopping bag right?

[iVeBeenDrinkin']

Not everywhere offers paper. When I lived in the US I liked paper over plastic too but I'm in the UK now. Other than department stores and some other retail/non-food places I have never seen a paper bag anywhere. The whole "paper or plastic" thing seems to be more of a thing in north america, at least as far as I can tell.

I am not sure how much better paper is really, especially if it's not recycled. The planet need trees too. The problem isn't so easy to fix when there are this many damn people on the planet.

Paper vs Plastic is a dying breed in the US now too. I understand your point that paper bags take resources too but, they are far less damaging to the environment then plastic.

A lot of US retailers are selling re-usable bags, and now, they are in vogue. I feel this is one of the best alternatives. However, in most cases, no bag at all is the best. Do I really need a bag to walk a six pack of beer 25 feet?

[iBlue]

Paper vs Plastic is a dying bread in the US now too. I understand your point that paper bags take resources too but, they are far less damaging to the environment then plastic.

A lot of US retailers are selling re-usable bags, and now, it is in vogue. I feel this is one of the best alternatives. However, in some cases, no bag at all is the best. Do I really need a bag to walk a six pack of beer 25 feet?
I thought that may be the case, that paper > plastic, but I've never looked into it. I miss paper bags sometimes but I do prefer the reusables now. They're tougher and they pack so much nicer. (It is rare that anyone packs your bags for you here, you do it yourself while the cashier sits on their butt. They ask if you need help packing but it's rare to see it actually happen. It takes longer without someone to pack but this country LOVES queueing :p)

I think it's a stupid law that you have to have a bag to hide your booze, especially in a situation like the one you were in. It's one of many stupid laws though really.

[garybUK]

I'd be surprised if your local council accepted carrier bags in the roadside plastics recycling bin. You might want to check with them because you could actually be doing a disservice. The larger supermarkets accept plastic bag for recycling.

We personally use large canvas bags which so far have lasted for 3 years which have saved approximately 1000 plastic bags.

We have several bins, a Black for General Waste, Blue for Paper, Brown for Garden Waste, Green Bin is for Glass, it has a Red Sack inside for :

Plastic bottles, Plastic Bags, Plastic food wraps (if no food stuffs has come into contact) e.g. the plastic wrapping around 6 pack of coke cans) and you can also put material in a plastic bag and tied up.

They alternate collections e.g. Week1 = Black, week2 = blue, week 3 = black, week4 = green & red, week 5 = black, week 6 = brown

it has vastly reduced our waste in general landfill waste as a household with 5 adults!

[iVeBeenDrinkin']

I thought that may be the case, that paper > plastic, but I've never looked into it. I miss paper bags sometimes but I do prefer the reusables now. They're tougher and they pack so much nicer. (It is rare that anyone packs your bags for you here, you do it yourself while the cashier sits on their butt. They ask if you need help packing but it's rare to see it actually happen. It takes longer without someone to pack but this country LOVES queueing :p)

I think it's a stupid law that you have to have a bag to hide your booze, especially in a situation like the one you were in. It's one of many stupid laws though really.

I love self checkout! Most grocery stores have it here now.

[iBlue]

I love self checkout! Most grocery stores have it here now.

I've gotten used to packing my own items but it got me all frazzled when I first moved here. It definitely takes longer but you don't get watermelons placed on top of your eggs and bread and other odd choices baggers sometimes make with your stuff.

[iVeBeenDrinkin']

I've gotten used to packing my own items but it got me all frazzled when I first moved here. It definitely takes longer but you don't get watermelons placed on top of your eggs and bread and other odd choices baggers sometimes make with your stuff.

Ha Ha, when I was 16, I was the bag boy putting the melons on top of your eggs and bread. Man, I feel bad now...I hate smashed bread!

BTW, we asked paper or plastic back then!

[iGav]

I understand your point that paper bags take resources too but, they are far less damaging to the environment then plastic.

AFAIK, store & supermarket plastic bags here have been fully biodegradable for some years now, they really don't take long to break down at all, even in unfavourable conditions, as I found out when stuff I bagged and put in my mums attic for storage turned to dust within 6 months. :eek:

They ask if you need help packing but it's rare to see it actually happen.

I find such offers of assistance are far more forthcoming if you happen to wear mittens. ;)

[iBlue]

I find such offers of assistance are far more forthcoming if you happen to wear mittens. ;)

LOL! <- no, I really did.

Or boxing gloves, maybe.

[Dagless]

I'm yet to understand why anyone wants plastic bags to begin with. Paper is where it's at.

Oh what a lovely day it is.

Say, what's that? I felt a few drops on my arms. No, nobody is peeing on my from above.. Hmm.

*cue rainfall and destroyed paper bags*

[Melrose]

Or maybe a re-usable cloth bag? Here in the States we can spend $700 billion for 'troubled assets' and give people $20 coupons for digital converter boxes... surely we could give a <$1 cloth bag to each citizen who wants one? But I digress... :p

I have a few of those. They're much sturdier than anything else..

[djellison]

Now, I am mad enough to post a new thread.

Of course, you've now doubled the carbon problem, by having a computer on long enough to post this thread :)

Try taking your own bag? That's what's being pushed for loads in the UK at the moment. You can buy a 'bag for life' which is a much stronger bag from most supermarkets. You're encouraged to re-use them. If they break - they'll replace it for free.

Doug

[mkrishnan]

What kind of BS law is that? Stuff must be in a bag? or is it just alchohol.

It's the alcohol (and possibly just the USA). I usually don't have large / heavy things bagged, since they're easier to carry by their handles, but I have occasionally been told this about alcohol (sometimes they also do give it to me unbagged).

P.S. Don't ask them to recycle the cardboard, just to be nasty. The great likelihood is they don't recycle anyways. You're better taking it home and recycling yourself. But you might right the story as a letter and send it to them corporate. Maybe someone on their corporate team who actually cares about the environment can use you as a case example of reasons why they should be more conscious.

[bruinsrme]

so you take the plastic bag as a good law abiding citizen and then recycle it or bring it with you on your next 7-11 visit.
The clerk is only doing their job.

[rhett7660]

So, I went to 7-11 (which is less than a half of a block from my house) to get a six pack of beer. As my name indicates, I like to drink. Anyway, there were several police officers inside, drinking coffee and eating donuts. I guess, taking a break. I thought nothing of them as I grabbed my favorite pale ale and headed toward check-out.

The clerk scanned my purchase and then went to grab a plastic bag. I told him, "I don't need the plastic bag, I am right next door."
He said, "I have to bag it, it is a law and the cops are right there."
"Fine!" I said, "I'll kill the environment for them."
I took my bagged beer and walked the 25 feet home.

Now, I am mad enough to post a new thread. I am the guy who buys the re-usable bags because I deplore using one of the least biodegradable substances known to man to carry beer 25 feet. I know I could have just not bought the beer but, should I be forced to make such a decision?

Because that is all that cops do...... :rolleyes:

[iJohnHenry]

It's the law

Why??

We can walk out with a naked case from The Beer Store, or a naked bottle from the LCBO (liquor store).

BTW, the LCBO has stopped using plastic. Paper only.

The Beer Store still hangs onto their black trademark bags though. :mad:

I agree with the cloth bags, for sure. I have 2 that are getting very threadbare. ;)

[mkrishnan]

We can walk out with a naked case from The Beer Store, or a naked bottle from the LCBO (liquor store).

I think it actually varies from state to state.... and it must also only apply to certain modes of conveyance of alcohol... I don't think you have to put a keg in a paper bag. ;)

[Sun Baked]

Sort of sucks most of the local laws are strange, but the most of the cities have made the bags mandatory for the liquor license.

Keeps a liquor licensee from contributing to urban blight more than they do.

I've seen some of the liquor store MLS listing, and staggering business in some of the poorer parts of the city.

[iVeBeenDrinkin']

P.S. Don't ask them to recycle the cardboard, just to be nasty. The great likelihood is they don't recycle anyways. You're better taking it home and recycling yourself. But you might right the story as a letter and send it to them corporate. Maybe someone on their corporate team who actually cares about the environment can use you as a case example of reasons why they should be more conscious.


You're absolutely right, I would not leave the cardboard there out of spite.

[Desertrat]

Hey, the "standard" size plastic bags from the grocery are great for lining wastebaskets. Makes for an easy package to go to the dumpster or the burn pit. Great trash bags for in-car use. Perfect for bagging up magazines and paper-back books to go to the freebie bench at the post office. Good for keeping nuts and bolts separate when there's a hiatus in a car project. And bunches of other good uses...

'Rat

[nbs2]

Hey, the "standard" size plastic bags from the grocery are great for lining wastebaskets. Makes for an easy package to go to the dumpster or the burn pit. Great trash bags for in-car use. Perfect for bagging up magazines and paper-back books to go to the freebie bench at the post office. Good for keeping nuts and bolts separate when there's a hiatus in a car project. And bunches of other good uses...

'Rat

All things for which you probably would have used a bag for anyway...

I'd guess that those bags are more friendly than traditional garbage bags. I wonder how many more bags I would end up buying if it weren't for those bags.

[.Andy]

I have a few of these which I have in my car and also in my briefcase/day bag to use when I'm out and about. They're great. Fold down to practically nothing (they actually fold into a sewn-in pocket to make that small parcel in the picture) and are machine washable :).

[iVeBeenDrinkin']

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=150766&stc=1&d=1230761369

Those look great, I'll probably buy some. I do have several re-usable bags from various stores, and I use them all the time. However, I did not think I would need one to carry a six pack home so, I did not bring one.

[hulugu]

Hey, the "standard" size plastic bags from the grocery are great for lining wastebaskets. Makes for an easy package to go to the dumpster or the burn pit. Great trash bags for in-car use. Perfect for bagging up magazines and paper-back books to go to the freebie bench at the post office. Good for keeping nuts and bolts separate when there's a hiatus in a car project. And bunches of other good uses...

'Rat

Good for carrying the busted parts into the house without making a mess and they're good for kitty-litter. However, I've also packed out a backpack stuffed with them from deep in a desert canyon. They spoil the landscape, choke animals, clog storm drains, and they are a significant energy waster.

I'm excited about the idea of making "plastic" bags from corn, so they biodegrade.

[LumbermanSVO]

I used them for trash in my semi. I have yet to find anything else that works as well. The handles are perfect for attaching to the knobs on the side of the seat and the bag mostly stays tucker under the seat this way.

Paper bags or trash bins would take up way too much space.

[iVeBeenDrinkin']

I used them for trash in my semi. I have yet to find anything else that works as well. The handles are perfect for attaching to the knobs on the side of the seat and the bag mostly stays tucker under the seat this way.

Paper bags or trash bins would take up way too much space.

Most times, the easiest solution is not the right solution.

[cleanup]

What the hell? I thought everyone used grocery/store plastic bags to line their wastebaskets/trash cans. The small ones at least. What the hell else do people do with them? Throw them out?? :mad: :confused: I've been doing this for years, and I still manage to have an excess of plastic bags to be recycled. I can't imagine how many I would have if I didn't recycle some of them in this way.

[aethelbert]

What the hell? I thought everyone used grocery/store plastic bags to line their wastebaskets/trash cans. The small ones at least. What the hell else do people do with them? Throw them out?? :mad: :confused: I've been doing this for years, and I still manage to have an excess of plastic bags to be recycled. I can't imagine how many I would have if I didn't recycle some of them in this way.
Hmmm... That's why I do as well. Any in excess I keep in a container to scoop up dog poop or store things like christmas lights.

[Demosthenes X]

Funny. Our liquor stores not only do not require you to take a bag, but the bags they do give out say "LCBO" (Liqour Control Board of Ontario) right on the side.

They also offer a 99 cent reusable bag, and unlike most stores, will ask before packing your merchandise whether you want a bag, and if so, whether you'd like to buy one. Very nice, I thought.

(FWIW, the reusable bags also say LCBO on them... heh)

Another tidbit:

I was buying groceries once, and asked for a paper bag. The clerk gave me one, and asked why I had said paper. I said "environment", obviously, and he responded that their plastic bags were just as biodegradable as the paper kind.

I'm not sure how true that is, but I see no reason for him to lie to me... does anyone know is fully biodegradable plastic bags are a reality? I sure hope so... :)

[Desertrat]

hulugu, those bags don't get into that desert canyon or storm drains by themselves. It's people that do wrong, not the bags...

And just how long will you enjoy a cloth bag after it gets wet with any liquid waste or oil or suchlike? Or, absent a liner in a trash can, how often do you wash them out?

From the standpoint of utility, the energy is not at all wasted.

'Rat

[iJohnHenry]

We do have a kitchen waste program, The Green Bin, which uses biodegradable bags. This is picked-up in the same manner as garbage and recycle, but with yet another truck.

Therein lies another problem. ;)

The cheap supermarkets here (Price Chopper, No Frills and Foods Basics) charge a 5¢ for a bag, but empty boxes are free, and are already waste material.

[LumbermanSVO]

Most times, the easiest solution is not the right solution.

Well, if you can come up with an easy to use/dispose of trash container for a semi that doesn't take up valuable/needed space then I'll call it the "right solution" and use it.

Oh, and it has to be cheap too, right now my bags are free. :D

[hulugu]

hulugu, those bags don't get into that desert canyon or storm drains by themselves. It's people that do wrong, not the bags...

And just how long will you enjoy a cloth bag after it gets wet with any liquid waste or oil or suchlike? Or, absent a liner in a trash can, how often do you wash them out?

From the standpoint of utility, the energy is not at all wasted.

'Rat

I'm just pointing out that plastic bags have a serious environmental consequence that can be obvious and tactile. The bags end up in the trees because of people, but also because they can catch the wind at the dump and since they don't break down, they end up everywhere. It's just an obnoxious aspect of a technology that exists entirely for convenience.
We can all find ways to reuse them, but they're just filling in yeoman roles that something else may be able to fit.

As for cloth bags, you know that you can wash them right?

[iVeBeenDrinkin']

Well, if you can come up with an easy to use/dispose of trash container for a semi that doesn't take up valuable/needed space then I'll call it the "right solution" and use it.

Oh, and it has to be cheap too, right now my bags are free. :D

That is all people want now, cheap and easy. Forget the consequences! This mentality is what will destroy the environment for your children and grandchildren.

[Desertrat]

hulugu, odds are that from an energy balance standpoint, the cloth bags are far more costly. Gotta grow the cotton and process it and cut, sew, and ship. It takes both energy and money to pump the water to wash the bag. And I'm commonly recycling several plastic bags at any one time.

I figure my overall footprint is fairly small. Aluminum cans go to the community recycler. I burn the burnables after maximizing any re-use, which is certainly less CO2 than a garbage truck emits, or my truck on a trip to a dumpster--or Algore's jet plane. :) The alkali soil eats tin cans rather quickly, and the residue is inert. Leftover food goes to the coyotes and ravens. I air/sun-dry my laundry.

There's no perfection. If you're against things because of the way people misuse things, you'd have to get rid of most anything with wheels. No more sharply pointed objects like knives or ball-point pens. No baseball bats, nor pets. No hammers, screwdrivrs or chain saws. No guns, bows&arrows or Olympic javelins. There are few things which cannot be misused or abused--including computers (Plastic!) and the Internet. :D

'Rat

[mactastic]

hulugu, odds are that from an energy balance standpoint, the cloth bags are far more costly. Gotta grow the cotton and process it and cut, sew, and ship. It takes both energy and money to pump the water to wash the bag.
Got any evidence to back up this assertion? Everything I've seen says the opposite...

[hulugu]

hulugu, odds are that from an energy balance standpoint, the cloth bags are far more costly. Gotta grow the cotton and process it and cut, sew, and ship. It takes both energy and money to pump the water to wash the bag. And I'm commonly recycling several plastic bags at any one time.

I didn't think about it until now, but the "cloth" bags I have are actually made from recycled bags. So, the question should be, if one hundred million new plastic grocery bags requires the total energy equivalent of approximately 8300 barrels of oil for extraction of the raw materials, through manufacturing, transport, use and curbside collection of the bags, how much does a single recycled bag use? I'm going to guess it's substantially less.

Also, only about 10% of plastic bags are recycled, the rest go into landfills. And, if the numbers I'm seeing are correct, we've already used more than 5 million bags since Jan. 1. That's a ridiculous amount of material and energy.


I figure my overall footprint is fairly small. Aluminum cans go to the community recycler. I burn the burnables after maximizing any re-use, which is certainly less CO2 than a garbage truck emits, or my truck on a trip to a dumpster--or Algore's jet plane. :) The alkali soil eats tin cans rather quickly, and the residue is inert. Leftover food goes to the coyotes and ravens. I air/sun-dry my laundry.

Let's not get into the ad hominems about Al Gore, he's not the problem, the solution, nor the point. I'm not going to get into carbon footprint comparisons either, the point is about plastic bags for the general population.

There's no perfection. If you're against things because of the way people misuse things, you'd have to get rid of most anything with wheels. No more sharply pointed objects like knives or ball-point pens. No baseball bats, nor pets. No hammers, screwdrivrs or chain saws. No guns, bows&arrows or Olympic javelins. There are few things which cannot be misused or abused--including computers (Plastic!) and the Internet. :D

'Rat

Amen and pass the collection plate. It's weird because you keep making this point and I keep agreeing with you. The plastic bag is one of those wonky little decisions we make as a culture. They're toxic and dangerous for the wildlife, they're annoying and they get everywhere and are effectively indestructible—although there's a kid who has found a kind of bacteria that can break them down in the right chemical stew—and most people use them a few times and then toss them.
A cloth bag can be reused dozens of times, can be washed when necessary, and can actually carry a lot more.

Everything has a cost, everything has a consequence, but in my mind plastic bags are mostly bad. In Ireland, a 33-cent tax was added to the plastic bag and the usage of cloth or similar bags skyrocketed, which indicates that people are profligate with plastic bags because they're free and convenient, not because they actually find them useful. What most of us are doing is adapting to the plastic bag and finding uses for something we don't really need.