Keyboard Layouts

[Billicus]

I know most of you all probably use QWERTY Keyboards, ones typically shipped with Macintosh Keyboards. But, I've been wondering what's the point behind having & learning a different keyboard layout? :confused: There are at least a couple other English Keyboard Layouts - I have attached pictures of each of these, The DVORAK & the PLUM Keyboards? Anybody use these keyboards? Do you like them? Do you find yourself typing in the QWERTY format or do you catch on and find it difficult to type in the QWERTY format after a time? Thoughts & impressions?

[HexMonkey]

Almost everyone uses qwerty because it is standard, so since [almost] everyone knows it, they don't want to bother learning something else. Unfortunately, qwerty was designed back in the days of the typewriter, and it was designed to slow the typist down because if they typed too quickly the typewriter would jam up. Dvorak was designed to be as easy to use as possible. So initially, since it's unfamiliar, typing speed in dvorak will be slower, but once you learn it, it will probably be faster than typing in qwerty.

I don't know about plum though.

[bousozoku]

I haven't used either, but I remember some woman with an Apple IIc who was the world's fastest typist at 180 words per minute using the Dvorak layout.

The qwerty layout was originally meant to slow down typists who were faster than the mechanism and jammed several hammers together at the platen of a typewriter.

Even though I'm interested in efficiency, I've never bothered to learn any other layout.

[Kingsnapped]

I want to learn how to use one of those one-handed "chord" keyboards.

...but I most likely never will.

[oldschool]

I want to learn how to use one of those one-handed "chord" keyboards.

...but I most likely never will.

Find the need to type with one hand a lot? :p

[TEG]

I never heard of "PLUM" I may have to try that. Looks much more efficient than "QWERTY". I go back and forth on DVORAK, I use it sometimes, but most Apple KB don't like it when you move the keys, the "f" and "j" keys only work in their "QWERTY" position. Also, its a little hard to do a lot of posting when you have to keep looking at the KB to find the right keys.

TEG

[mrdeep]

I use dvorak as my primary keyboard layout, I started on january 30th, and I would say it was no longer slowing me down within about 2 weeks. I can still type querty when I have to, but it takes a couple of minutes for me to readjust.

The fact that OS X has a dvorak + command querty made the switch really easy. When you hold down the command key, it reverts back to querty so your keyboard shortcuts are still the same. The only annoying part is that certain applicatios ignore it (MS Office, and Adobe Photoshop), and emacs is kind of a pain since the shortcuts are ctrl, not cmd.

Overall, I'd say that it does require less finger movement to type, writing code is initally a total pain, but I'm all set with the symbols ({, }, <, >, /, =, +, ?, -) now.

One of the best undocumented benefits of dvorak is that it deters people from using your computer. If this is a problem, hitting command-option-spacebar switches your keyboard layout based on whatever you have in the menu. Also, the keyboard viewer is a godsend, but kill it whenever someone may be around and you're typing your password.

[themadchemist]

I was thinking about giving Dvorak a try...I've heard, though, that a lot of the research Dvorak and his cohorts did demonstrating the greater efficiency of the Dvorak model was biased at best and falsified at worst.

[mac15]

to be honest, I didn't know there was a difference. :)

[neut]

i just want one that goes a-z. no guessing. everything in its right place.


peace.

[bousozoku]

i just want one that goes a-z. no guessing. everything in it's right place.


peace.

What is it is (it's) ;) right place?

You want one that's alphabetic? Try an early Commodore PET. That was a disaster.

[Dippo]

It doesn't matter which layout is the "best".

Qwerty is "good enough" and it is what most everyone uses so that is what we will use until something beyond keyboards comes out.

[themadchemist]

It doesn't matter which layout is the "best".

Qwerty is "good enough" and it is what most everyone uses so that is what we will use until something beyond keyboards comes out.

A similar argument could be made about Windows.

[bousozoku]

A similar argument could be made about Windows.

Exactly. I'm glad someone else was first to post that. :D

[mrdeep]

Its a more apt comparison between windows / linux rather than windows / osx.

Linux requires some work to adjust to & figure out how to do stuff, but once that is done you are (supposedly) supposed to be able to get more done in less time than you could in windows.

Dvorak requires some work to adjust to & figure out how to do stuff, but once that is done you are (supposedly) supposed to be able get to get more done in less time than you could with querty.

The reason why OS X really doesn't fit as much is because there is much less adjusting & figuring out required. (note that this is my opinnion as someone with experience using all 3 as desktops for long periods of time)

[bousozoku]

Its a more apt comparison between windows / linux rather than windows / osx.

Linux requires some work to adjust to & figure out how to do stuff, but once that is done you are (supposedly) supposed to be able to get more done in less time than you could in windows.

Dvorak requires some work to adjust to & figure out how to do stuff, but once that is done you are (supposedly) supposed to be able get to get more done in less time than you could with querty.

The reason why OS X really doesn't fit as much is because there is much less adjusting & figuring out required. (note that this is my opinnion as someone with experience using all 3 as desktops for long periods of time)

Did you really mean to post in this thread? :confused:

[mrdeep]

Hm, i guess it didn't come across properly as I assumed that the argument was pro windows and anti-mac (or something). Feel free to disregard that post.

*tries to quickly get back on topic*

Dvorak will never be the standard because I can't get u & h keys for my powerbook (or apple bluetooth keyboard) with little nubs on them. Yeah, thats it.

[neut]

What is it is (it's) ;) right place?

You want one that's alphabetic? Try an early Commodore PET. That was a disaster.

maybe if it was i would actually spell right. ;)

i'm a bit QWERTY dyslexic. :D


peace.

[jtkellertx]

I know most of you all probably use QWERTY Keyboards, ones typically shipped with Macintosh Keyboards. But, I've been wondering what's the point behind having & learning a different keyboard layout? :confused: There are at least a couple other English Keyboard Layouts - I have attached pictures of each of these, The DVORAK & the PLUM Keyboards? Anybody use these keyboards? Do you like them? Do you find yourself typing in the QWERTY format or do you catch on and find it difficult to type in the QWERTY format after a time? Thoughts & impressions?
I think PLUM is a joke, notice it says "READONTHIS" or Read On This

[scem0]

I can't wait till keyboards are Projection Keyboards (http://www.alpern.org/weblog/stories/2003/01/09/projectionKeyboards.html), so they can be changed to different formats with a few simple setting changes. Then I can switch to dvorak, and not have to worry about going to QWERTY keyboards all the time.

scem0

[Billicus]

I think PLUM is a joke, notice it says "READONTHIS" or Read On This

It's not a joke, it's a real keyboard I saw advertised in a recent issue of a Macintosh magazine. I'm not crazy...;)

[Kyle?]

I use Dvorak. It was grueling work the first few days but now I'm quite fine with it. Decided to use it bc someone on macrumors mentioned it in their sig.

Dvorak will never be the standard because I can't get u & h keys for my powerbook (or apple bluetooth keyboard) with little nubs on them. Yeah, thats it.

Get a clear iskin. They have the nubbies. I switched the keys on my ibook and then got the iskin. Works great.

The fact that OS X has a dvorak + command querty made the switch really easy. When you hold down the command key, it reverts back to querty so your keyboard shortcuts are still the same. The only annoying part is that certain applicatios ignore it (MS Office, and Adobe Photoshop), and emacs is kind of a pain since the shortcuts are ctrl, not cmd.

Worse than that, Office doesn't just ignore it, it bungles it. Some commands won't work whether you use the dvorak or qwerty layout. And classic apps revert to qwerty.

If this is a problem, hitting command-option-spacebar switches your keyboard layout based on whatever you have in the menu.

Sweet!!!! I'll have to tell my family this so they won't be stuck again while logging in!

[MrMacMan]

I have to say this...

I type with 5 fingers.

Every sentence.

I never use my right middle finger.

I know the spots on the keyboard I just use mostly 4-5 fingers...

Do I type slow?

Probably.

Am I about to do it? yes.

[themadchemist]

I have to say this...

I type with 5 fingers.

Every sentence.

I never use my right middle finger.

I know the spots on the keyboard I just use mostly 4-5 fingers...

Do I type slow?

Probably.

Am I about to do it? yes.

congratulations...? :p

[heliosnorf]

This site (http://www.geocities.com/rjpoling/MacOS/dvorak/dvorak.html) shows how to switch your PowerBook keyboards to dvorak. Might be useful for some of you...

[heliosnorf]

I was thinking about giving Dvorak a try...I've heard, though, that a lot of the research Dvorak and his cohorts did demonstrating the greater efficiency of the Dvorak model was biased at best and falsified at worst.

Check out this site (http://www.visi.com/~pmk/evolved.html) about evolving keyboard layouts - it convinced me that the Dvorak layout really is a lot better than QWERTY. I've been using it for a month or so now, and while I'm still not up to my qwerty speed, it's getting there.

[Don't panic]

I think PLUM is a joke, notice it says "READONTHIS" or Read On This

no, it's a real product. READONTHIS are among the most common letters used, so they are on the central row. the order is such that it easy to remember. I second the alphabetical order. I don't see why it would be worse than qwerty.

[michael666]

I recently started using the Dvorak layout, but came across some problems:

* Where are the tilde ~ and backwards apostrophe ` characters? They do not turn up in the keyboard viewer, but they are essential for me (programming languages)

* Is there a German Dvorak layout? I need to write German from time to time, but the German layout (for the umlauts) is only Querty.

* I also need to write Japanese quite often, but the Japanese IME always uses Querty, even if previously Dvorak was selected.

Thanks for any help I will get here!

[HexMonkey]

I recently started using the Dvorak layout, but came across some problems:

* Where are the tilde ~ and backwards apostrophe ` characters? They do not turn up in the keyboard viewer, but they are essential for me (programming languages)

Isn't it the same? For me at least, it's the key under escape.

* Is there a German Dvorak layout? I need to write German from time to time, but the German layout (for the umlauts) is only Querty.

I don't think there's a built in one, but the umlauts can be typed the same way as on an English Qwerty layout. That is, type option-u, and then the vowel that the umlaut appears over (of course the u is in the position of the f in the qwerty layout).

[michael666]

Isn't it the same? For me at least, it's the key under escape.


I have a Japanase keyboard, and under escape, there is the number one key. The keyboard viewer does non show those keys, also not using shift or alt.

I don't think there's a built in one, but the umlauts can be typed the same way as on an English Qwerty layout. That is, type option-u, and then the vowel that the umlaut appears over (of course the u is in the position of the f in the qwerty layout).

That's what I'm doing now, but it is annying to have to press three keys for frequently occurring characters, which require only one keypress on a German keyboard.

But anyway, thank you for your answers!

[le sacre]

[take-home message: switch to Dvorak if your arms hurt when you type.]

it's true, the original Dvorak studies were conducted by Dvorak himself, who had *quite a lot of dough* riding on the success of his layout. not the best setup to get at the scientific truth.

i haven't researched it myself, but can report my own anecdotal evidence for why Dvorak is great.

i got interested in switching because i found that i would get twinges of pain in my forearms (on the underside, where the tendons are!) when i would use the computer for a long time (which i do, for work, every day). they weren't very serious, but it got me thinking i should investigate alternatives, rather than risk some sort of long term injury.

the biggest result for me is that my arms don't ever hurt anymore. there could be two different explanations of this. 1) i type more slowly than i used to. on QWERTY i was definitely above 70 wpm, whereas in Dvorak i think i'm more like 55. however, most of what i do is write scripts in matlab and compose carefully-worded emails, for which i typically can't type that fast anyway... so i think the correct explanation is 2) my fingers travel a lot less distance in Dvorak, staying in the home row a *lot* more than they do in QWERTY.

i bet if you were to measure how far your fingers travel in a week, Dvorak would be something like 65-75% of the distance in QWERTY (NB, these are made-up numbers to give an idea of my impressions).

it is annoying in some ways: as was mentioned above, microsoft office and photoshop don't behave when you use the Dvorak + command-QWERTY layout (which you use so that shortcuts for quit, copy, etc. are still in the old familiar QWERTY place). unfortunately, it's not just that they use command-Dvorak instead of command-QWERTY, it's that they seem to switch spontaneously for no reason that i've yet deduced. i've just decided to try using Dvorak for everything, just so i can always know what will happen.

regarding changing the keys on your keyboard, i think part of the fun is learning the new layout without changing around your keys. after a short while, you know where the keys are even if they still have the QWERTY labels. then you don't void any warrantees or create headaches for the next person to inherit your system.

personally, i enjoy the challenge of switching frequently, even though it cuts down on my speed. i always keep Dvorak for where i do the most typing at work, but sometimes i go QWERTY at home, or even have Dvorak in OS X and QWERTY in Classic. you don't want to forget QWERTY! already i'd found that when i switched back, suddenly i needed to look at the keys while i typed. now i'm aiming to be fluently bi-keyboardal.

tj

[Doctor Q]

The pain some people get from typing may be due to the shape of the keyboard rather than the layout of the keys. I've tested a two-piece angled QWERTY keyboard and it really did fit the positions of my arms nicely.

[krimson]

one of the keyboards in the server room is a Dvorak. it's wierd, but i can't type on the QWRETRY keybaord with the right fingers anyways, so it's not that hard for me to adjust.