MacBooks ARE better for the price... (Help with ideas)

[Ryuukumori]

I noticed this because with some experience using friends' Toshiba's, HPs,and Sony Vaio's, they are all hard to replace the hard drive. MacBooks make it really easy.

I mean, this is one little plus for this notebook. I am trying to compare and contrast the latest benefits and pluses MacBooks have over other PC laptops to better my chances of getting one for college in June.

Any ideas? These are things I have so far.

1. MacOSX (no viruses, clean, non-bloated, etc)
2. Hard drive replacement (and battery too) easy
3. Sturdier design (by personal experience using these)
4. Longest battery life I know of
5. Reliability and longetivity

This is not a comparison between Mac and PC. Let's look solely on why Macs are reputable for good things that stand apart for its price.

[akbc]

6. Multi-touch trackpad: once you get used to it, you can never go back to those crappy small PC trackpads... I love all the two/three/four finger gestures :D It makes your workflow faster and more efficient.

[mcavjame]

You could add:
- target mode on macbooks and macbook pros with FW connection
- dual boot with bootcamp - it's really two computers in one
- robust included software that is not matched on any PC with the iLife suite. People tend to look at the hardware side only when purchasing a computer and forget that they either have to add useful applications or upgrade the 30 day trial software.
- iWork suite is very usable for me and is a pretty inexpensive addition to a Mac. Powerpoint has nothing on Keynote when it comes to nicely designed templates. You have to go third party on a PC to get well designed show.
- magsafe power adapter

[Tinknock71]

I will just try to sum it up for you very simple "They Just Work" I was a PC user for the past 15 years and switched over to a Mac about 6 months ago I would never go back!!!!! I was so sick and tired of the problems I had, that was the breaking point for me and I don't regret ever changing, should have done it 15 years ago!

[RemarkabLee]

- They're cooler :cool:

[cogsinister]

6. Multi-touch trackpad: once you get used to it, you can never go back to those crappy small PC trackpads... I love all the two/three/four finger gestures :D It makes your workflow faster and more efficient.

I was setting up someones PC laptop yesterday, the trackpad seemed the size of a postage stamp compared to my unibody !!

[mosx]

I noticed this because with some experience using friends' Toshiba's, HPs,and Sony Vaio's, they are all hard to replace the hard drive. MacBooks make it really easy.

I mean, this is one little plus for this notebook. I am trying to compare and contrast the latest benefits and pluses MacBooks have over other PC laptops to better my chances of getting one for college in June.

Any ideas? These are things I have so far.

1. MacOSX (no viruses, clean, non-bloated, etc)
2. Hard drive replacement (and battery too) easy
3. Sturdier design (by personal experience using these)
4. Longest battery life I know of
5. Reliability and longetivity

HDD replacement is easier on a Mac compared to an HP?

Uh.. no? I'm on my HP right now. All I have to do is remove 2 screws and pull a tab. Plus HP used standard screws, not Torx screws, on the casing so I can easily replace the drive without having to go to Radioshack and buy a $15 screw kit.

Also, to swap out my battery, I just have to push a little switch over and the battery pops out. I can literally swap my 6 cell for my 12 cell in less than 5 seconds.

Windows only has a virus problem if the user itself has an issue with installing software that the browser, OS, and Defender all warn against and try to stop the installation.

OS X has its own little problems too. The one I've encountered recently is, when trying to sync iPod after iPod, iTunes and OS X become increasingly unstable and need to be restarted entirely. Plus OS X wastes CPU cycles like nothing compared to Windows. Tasks that take 5% in Windows will eat up 30+ in OS X.

Sturdier design? I wouldn't say so. Even though my MacBook is aluminum and my HP is plastic, with the HP I don't have to worry about system threatening dents, scratching, corrosion, or any of that. And I don't have to worry about the cracking problems the plastic MacBooks have.

Reliability also does not fall in the Macs favor either. Like many people here, I've gone through multiple replacements due to poor build quality and poor repair practices.

Battery life also does not fare well against my HP. Real world battery life on my MacBook is around 4.5 hours. Real world on my HP with the high capacity 6 cell is about 3.5 hours. With the 12 cell its 7 hours. Thats with WiFi on, screen to the lowest (still brighter than the Mac at 50%), browsing, etc.

You also have to consider other things. The MacBook is lacking severely in terms of standard connectivity. It lacks ExpressCard, which all 13.3" PCs have. It lacks HDMI in favor of mini DisplayPort. The funny thing about DisplayPort is that it is royalty free, completely. So Apple gets to pocket the entire $29.99 you spend on an adapter. Where HDMI requires a 2 cent fee to be included. 2 cents. HPs and others these days have shared eSATA and USB ports, card readers, finger print readers, built-in HDTV tuners, etc. And, I'll admit I was wrong, the new HP lines DO in fact include 4-pin Firewire, leaving the MacBook as the ONLY mainstream consumer notebook WITHOUT Firewire. Plus HP offers higher resolution glass screens, blu-ray, more video memory than the $2,000 MBP, etc. The MacBook, really, is just not a good buy. No Mac is if you are talking about overall value. You only buy a Mac if you want OS X. You do not buy it for any other reason because when you start looking at hardware features, the MacBook and MBP fall WELL short of systems costing less than half as much.

[Smacky]

Macbooks use propietary connections, so you need like a zillion adaptor cables to connect it to everyday equipment like monitors / tvs
Unless of course you are willing to shell out for a new Apple led monitor at the same time, oh how convenient!

[macjram]

Ouch. Lmao.

[Eidorian]

I noticed this because with some experience using friends' Toshiba's, HPs,and Sony Vaio's, they are all hard to replace the hard drive. MacBooks make it really easy.Maybe they should get the service manuals first before adventuring into a laptop. Why force them to switch?

[Primejimbo]

HDD replacement is easier on a Mac compared to an HP?

Uh.. no? I'm on my HP right now. All I have to do is remove 2 screws and pull a tab. Plus HP used standard screws, not Torx screws, on the casing so I can easily replace the drive without having to go to Radioshack and buy a $15 screw kit.

Also, to swap out my battery, I just have to push a little switch over and the battery pops out. I can literally swap my 6 cell for my 12 cell in less than 5 seconds.

Windows only has a virus problem if the user itself has an issue with installing software that the browser, OS, and Defender all warn against and try to stop the installation.

OS X has its own little problems too. The one I've encountered recently is, when trying to sync iPod after iPod, iTunes and OS X become increasingly unstable and need to be restarted entirely. Plus OS X wastes CPU cycles like nothing compared to Windows. Tasks that take 5% in Windows will eat up 30+ in OS X.

Sturdier design? I wouldn't say so. Even though my MacBook is aluminum and my HP is plastic, with the HP I don't have to worry about system threatening dents, scratching, corrosion, or any of that. And I don't have to worry about the cracking problems the plastic MacBooks have.

Reliability also does not fall in the Macs favor either. Like many people here, I've gone through multiple replacements due to poor build quality and poor repair practices.

Battery life also does not fare well against my HP. Real world battery life on my MacBook is around 4.5 hours. Real world on my HP with the high capacity 6 cell is about 3.5 hours. With the 12 cell its 7 hours. Thats with WiFi on, screen to the lowest (still brighter than the Mac at 50%), browsing, etc.

You also have to consider other things. The MacBook is lacking severely in terms of standard connectivity. It lacks ExpressCard, which all 13.3" PCs have. It lacks HDMI in favor of mini DisplayPort. The funny thing about DisplayPort is that it is royalty free, completely. So Apple gets to pocket the entire $29.99 you spend on an adapter. Where HDMI requires a 2 cent fee to be included. 2 cents. HPs and others these days have shared eSATA and USB ports, card readers, finger print readers, built-in HDTV tuners, etc. And, I'll admit I was wrong, the new HP lines DO in fact include 4-pin Firewire, leaving the MacBook as the ONLY mainstream consumer notebook WITHOUT Firewire. Plus HP offers higher resolution glass screens, blu-ray, more video memory than the $2,000 MBP, etc. The MacBook, really, is just not a good buy. No Mac is if you are talking about overall value. You only buy a Mac if you want OS X. You do not buy it for any other reason because when you start looking at hardware features, the MacBook and MBP fall WELL short of systems costing less than half as much.

As for the HD, I just take my battery cover off. Virus protection isn't 100% and if the company who makes the protection doesn't have an update for a virus, the protection is useless.
Express card issue I thought I would miss it till I realize my last 2 computers that had them broke and I had to buy an external one anyways. So 1 less thing to break. Firewire isn't an issue for everyone. I had them on past PC's and never used them, so everyone doesn't need one. Finger print reader.. I have one on an older laptop.. never used it.
So if the other things on top of what I said isn't needed for a person, I doubt they will care they are not on a Mac.

[yrael]

Most preference comes from how much upkeep you want to deal with on a computer.

Macs do their best to shove everything into one box. Programs that are bought seperately are very reliable and simple to use.

Windows requires a lot of upkeep, with constantly monitoring what you download, what sites you go to, and various other tells that could show an unstable system.

Both systems are fllled with problems. I think that macs are simplier, with streamlined programs, but some people like the options that PCs can give you.

As for what's worth the money? The touchpad is veryvery worth it. I like the fact that peripherals can be bluetooth (so useful, having a unwired mouse). Leopard comes with bootcamp, so if you yearn for that Windows program, you can satisfy your Windows craving. Front Row is really fun to use, if you manage to get an apple remote, and it works (kind of) with most itunes features.

I think your arguement would be best put as: "I'd be happiest with..." Because having a computer that you constantly yell at is stress that you could do without during college.

[Eidorian]

Most preference comes from how much upkeep you want to deal with on a computer.

Macs do their best to shove everything into one box. Programs that are bought seperately are very reliable and simple to use.

Windows requires a lot of upkeep, with constantly monitoring what you download, what sites you go to, and various other tells that could show an unstable system.

Both systems are fllled with problems. I think that macs are simplier, with streamlined programs, but some people like the options that PCs can give you.I'd like to direct you here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=626068).

[bruinsrme]

All notebooks/laptops have come a long way in their design.
IBM/Lenovo, HP, Dell toshiba and sony to name a very have quite a few models where there is more than one screw to remove the hard drive from the body and 3 to 6 screws to remove it from the mounting tray.

Quality - that all depends on the product line. I wouldn't expect a $500 notebook to have the same components as a $2000 unit.

Battery life - dependet on the size battery installed and the demand on the processor. Full bright, max processor speed, iphone connected and charging, while surfing or watching a video 2.5 hours to 3. Max I would say is 5 hours.

Style What I think of one platform is most likely different than someone else standing next to me.

Price I think macs are more expensive than PC counterparts. Again my opinion and perception.

When I recently purchased 2 new dells they both have hdmi and bluray. There was the mac deal breaker.

[akbc]

I am no fanboy or whatever, I use more Windows and Microsoft product than any Apple product, and I'm equally trained in both environments. I really take no sides; I love MS to be honest... I know I might get shot by saying that here, but I see some flaws in your post.. therefore:

HDD replacement is easier on a Mac compared to an HP?
Uh.. no? I'm on my HP right now. All I have to do is remove 2 screws and pull a tab. Plus HP used standard screws, not Torx screws, on the casing so I can easily replace the drive without having to go to Radioshack and buy a $15 screw kit.

Yes, and it's just that much easier for me to steal your HDD, unlike MacBooks' where Kensington lock would lock the battery cover as well, protecting HDD and Battery.
Besides, have you seen any other PC laptop's back/under parts? Apple really set the benchmark in easy HDD replacement with the plastic MacBooks.

Also, to swap out my battery, I just have to push a little switch over and the battery pops out. I can literally swap my 6 cell for my 12 cell in less than 5 seconds.

Same with my Unibody MBP. I can change it less than 5 seconds. And It's SECURED with my Kensington lock, unlike yours. Nobody takes my battery

Windows only has a virus problem if the user itself has an issue with installing software that the browser, OS, and Defender all warn against and try to stop the installation.

However, it is still possible to approach the root/registry without user permission. The UNIX foundation of Mac OS X does not allow that in any way; making Mac OS X that much safer than Windows. And for Mac, even if the user itself has an issue, Mac will stop. :)

OS X has its own little problems too. The one I've encountered recently is, when trying to sync iPod after iPod, iTunes and OS X become increasingly unstable and need to be restarted entirely. Plus OS X wastes CPU cycles like nothing compared to Windows. Tasks that take 5% in Windows will eat up 30+ in OS X.

LOL! You're serious? Ask anyone for comparison between OS X iTunes vs. Windows iTunes. There's a reason why people hate iTunes on Windows...

Sturdier design? I wouldn't say so. Even though my MacBook is aluminum and my HP is plastic, with the HP I don't have to worry about system threatening dents, scratching, corrosion, or any of that. And I don't have to worry about the cracking problems the plastic MacBooks have.

Because Plastic is so much stronger than Aluminum... right...? Anything's vulnerable in the hands of those who does not care for their investments.

Reliability also does not fall in the Macs favor either. Like many people here, I've gone through multiple replacements due to poor build quality and poor repair practices.

And that's exactly why Apple wins the "best service" and blah blah most of the time; Example One (http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Feature/130042,pc-authority-reliability--service-awards-2008.aspx) Example Two (http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/11/20/apples-customer-service-gets-highest-marks-among-callers) and many more.. just google.

Battery life also does not fare well against my HP. Real world battery life on my MacBook is around 4.5 hours. Real world on my HP with the high capacity 6 cell is about 3.5 hours. With the 12 cell its 7 hours. Thats with WiFi on, screen to the lowest (still brighter than the Mac at 50%), browsing, etc.

Er......... ok.. so 4.5 is worse than 3.5, yes. And MacBook is quoted at 5 hours in the beginning, so.. 4.5 doesn't sound too bad to me at all....
And I think you need to get your MacBook checked at the closest Apple Store. Your Mac's screen isn't bright enough for you at 50%? Many people complain that it's too bright at the lowest settings... As with myself.

You also have to consider other things ... the MacBook and MBP fall WELL short of systems costing less than half as much.

Yup, that I agree with. For the money we consumers pay, we do not get the best hardwares available. But the OS, service and all combined, it really isn't a bad deal. By the way, can you show me the same spec laptop as MB or MBP that costs less than half? I'd be delighted. And please compare reasonably.

anyways, I'm sure everyone agrees that Apple might be a little bit more expensive. But I just think that's the extra thing I have to pay for the great service, great reputation, and great machines :)

[megacrazy]

I see it's turning into a Mac vs PC thread. I own both, macs and pcs (Sony, Toshiba, Acer, Fujitsu, Lenovo, Gateway) and I work in IT.

Macs are built better, with higher quality materials. Seriously, go to a store and put the new macbook next to any laptop in that store. There is no comparison. I mean are we really trying to compare a unibody glass and aluminum construction with plastic and aluminum-look vinyl?

Next, compare dimensions with those other laptops, and you'll see it's thinner etc. I think the new macbooks simply look next gen when compared to the current laptops from other manufacturers.

Use the Macbook and you'll notice that it runs DEAD SILENT (not happening with other laptops especially with vista) and that the battery really lasts a long time (without having a 600 cell battery sticking out 12 inches behind the laptop). You'll also notice it stays extremely cool, because of its fan design and aluminum housing.

Also, OSX simply has Vista beat right now. I've been using Vista since it came out and I decided to put it in the trash, where it belongs. It's unstable (3rd party fault, MS fault...who cares), crazy resource intensive and not good for laptops. XP is a bunch of old news that still happens to work. It's like saying you could drive an Aston Martin but you decide to drive a civic because it's reliable. It makes little to no sense.

If you do not want a computer that generates constant headaches (constant updates, trojans, browser hijacks, driver incompatibility, data corruption, etc.) simply buy a Mac...for now. Things might change when Windows 7 comes out, but I doubt that will influence the build quality of laptops in any way. In the future you might have to buy a Mac and put Windows 7 on it...you never know :)

[Harmless Abuse]

I see it's turning into a Mac vs PC thread. I own both, macs and pcs (Sony, Toshiba, Acer, Fujitsu, Lenovo, Gateway) and I work in IT.

Macs are built better, with higher quality materials. Seriously, go to a store and put the new macbook next to any laptop in that store. There is no comparison. I mean are we really trying to compare a unibody glass and aluminum construction with plastic and aluminum-look vinyl?

Next, compare dimensions with those other laptops, and you'll see it's thinner etc. I think the new macbooks simply look next gen when compared to the current laptops from other manufacturers.

Use the Macbook and you'll notice that it runs DEAD SILENT (not happening with other laptops especially with vista) and that the battery really lasts a long time (without having a 600 cell battery sticking out 12 inches behind the laptop). You'll also notice it stays extremely cool, because of its fan design and aluminum housing.

Also, OSX simply has Vista beat right now. I've been using Vista since it came out and I decided to put it in the trash, where it belongs. It's unstable (3rd party fault, MS fault...who cares), crazy resource intensive and not good for laptops. XP is a bunch of old news that still happens to work. It's like saying you could drive an Aston Martin but you decide to drive a civic because it's reliable. It makes little to no sense.

If you do not want a computer that generates constant headaches (constant updates, trojans, browser hijacks, driver incompatibility, data corruption, etc.) simply buy a Mac...for now. Things might change when Windows 7 comes out, but I doubt that will influence the build quality of laptops in any way. In the future you might have to buy a Mac and put Windows 7 on it...you never know :)Vista is not the monster everyone makes it out to be.

You know what Snow Leopard is? Snow Leopard is what Microsoft tried to do with Vista, only Apple put the pretty graphics on Leopard and Microsoft waited until Vista. There is nothing really wrong with Vista, people just whine and moan because they're uneducated and don't necessarily like change. We had similar issues with XP and now it's like the perfect MS OS really.

I like OS X, it's nice, it's simple, I like UNIX. I still can't stand the people who harbor such negative feelings towards Microsoft without knowing anything.

The virus thing is 90% a user's fault. You don't get a virus if you're responsible. Install a good FREE antivirus. AVG and Avast! are great, free, and update their databases 24/7. I get virus database updates once every hour or so with Avast! I haven't paid for anything out of it. Advanced System protector or malwarebytes is great for spyware/adware/malware, again it's free, and it's unobtrusive.

You avoid viruses by clicking those fake ads, opening a shady email, or surfing porn sites. Is that so hard? No, but people are going to blame their destroyed computers on Microsoft instead of admitting they messed up and tried to pirate photoshop. Out of my 10 years (not nearly as long as most people on here, granted), I've faced no virus issues, because I have very basic common sense.

Mac notebooks don't seem like they're worth all they're hyped up to be. I like mine, but for $1000 you're getting an older machine with a case prone to cracking and discoloration even with the gentlest of hands. Aluminum is NOT stronger than plastic no matter what you think. Aluminum is a really soft metal, it scratches easily, dents easily, flexes easily, and while it looks pretty, and can be durable, there are a lot of plastics that will put that aluminum to shame.

The lack of ports makes me very sad inside. End of.

The large trackpad is a plus though. The gestures seem like a gimmick though.

The OS is what people are paying for, even though Apple doesn't have to pay the licensing fees every other notebook shipped with Microsoft does, so we shouldn't have to pay like we do, but we do anyways.

The build quality makes me rather sad too. For a machine that's supposed to be top-of-the-line, I notice a lot of issues with loose cases, or hardware issues like failing harddrives, failing optical drives, bad screens, dead pixels.

Don't even get me started on the screens. For the price you pay for that machine, you should get one nice screen. It's LED backlit, but the viewing angles are very poor. My $500 Compaq notebook had better viewing angles. They skimp on a lot of things even though you're paying quite a bit.

Upgrading everything isn't so easy on the MacBook. I don't like how in the aluminum, upgrading RAM is a bigger pain than ever, and you shouldn't need multiple screw drivers in order to access your harddrive.

As for the Kensington lock, honestly, I shouldn't be in a situation in which I leave my notebook unattended, let alone worry about someone sitting there trying to steal my internals. If you're worried about your battery being stolen, then you either have a mild case of paranoia, or you leave your notebook alone in public way too much. I take my notebook to the library all the time for research, but if I need a new book, I simply close my notebook, and take it with me. That or I choose a seat closest to the receptionists, and no one takes things when they're being watched =)

The notebook looks nice, Apple sacrifices performance for aesthetics, and that's what people seem to like. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy my MacBook, but the fan-people make me a little worried to say that I enjoy my Mac, and I enjoy OS X. I don't want to switch my notebook, but if I had to pay for the entire thing myself, I would not even consider one anymore. Apple needs to change their ways in order to keep up with their profits, and maybe they will, but they probably won't. They're pretty machines, and I enjoy the OS. They're not perfect though.

[mosx]

Virus protection isn't 100% and if the company who makes the protection doesn't have an update for a virus, the protection is useless.

Actual testing proves that, despite rumors, UAC catches everything that tries to modify the system in Vista.

Express card issue I thought I would miss it till I realize my last 2 computers that had them broke and I had to buy an external one anyways.

Um.. what? ExpressCard doesn't "break". You might have somehow broken something yourself though.

ExpressCard is great for all kinds of things. Soundcards, adapters to add more ports like eSATA and Firewire, external HDDs (can operate at 2Gbps), HDTV tuners and other neat devices.

Finger print reader.. I have one on an older laptop.. never used it.

Well, then you missed out. It's great being able to swipe your finger to log in to various things.

So if the other things on top of what I said isn't needed for a person, I doubt they will care they are not on a Mac.

Well, people should care. Why? They're paying more for less features. Macs having less features means they should cost less.

Windows requires a lot of upkeep, with constantly monitoring what you download, what sites you go to, and various other tells that could show an unstable system.

Absolutely not true. Windows requires no more upkeep than an occasional defrag and running of ccleaner. No different than how OS X requires an occasional running of Onyx or some other maintenance utility.

If you're using IE7 or FF3 you don't need to worry about where you go or what you do, as they'll both protect you from yourself.

The touchpad is veryvery worth it.

No its not. It's good for flipping pictures but thats it. It's not as good as a good external mouse.

Front Row is really fun to use, if you manage to get an apple remote, and it works (kind of) with most itunes features.

Media Center, included with Vista Home Premium, walks all over Front Row. Plus most PC manufacturers continue to do what Apple doesn't, which is still including a remote.

Yes, and it's just that much easier for me to steal your HDD, unlike MacBooks' where Kensington lock would lock the battery cover as well, protecting HDD and Battery.

Yeah, go ahead and use that Kensington lock on the MacBook and Pro. Let it screw up and bend and warp your case. Doesn't do that on PCs ;)

Oh and thanks to Truecrypt, I have free and much more secure full drive encryption. So go ahead and steal my HDD. The human race will long be extinct by the time the multiple layers of encryption are broken.

Besides, have you seen any other PC laptop's back/under parts? Apple really set the benchmark in easy HDD replacement with the plastic MacBooks.

Are you serious? Every consumer notebook PC I've ever worked on has been a simple matter of removing a couple of screws. With the plastic MacBook you had to remove the battery, remove the stupid little "RAM door", pull the drive out, use a very specific and difficult to find Torx screw, replace the casing on the new drive, put it back in, put the "RAM door" back on *without* bending it, screw one in, use a non-magnetic card to push the little cushions in, etc. etc.

Same with my Unibody MBP. I can change it less than 5 seconds. And It's SECURED with my Kensington lock, unlike yours. Nobody takes my battery

No, your case just gets torn up in the process of just using the lock. Oh and how is somebody going to steal my battery when I'm always with my computer when I'm out of the house? Sorry, but I am NOT stupid enough to rely on a little lock that can be cut with just about anything. I'm NOT going to leave my computer alone while I am using it away from home.

However, it is still possible to approach the root/registry without user permission. The UNIX foundation of Mac OS X does not allow that in any way; making Mac OS X that much safer than Windows. And for Mac, even if the user itself has an issue, Mac will stop.

False. UAC has been PROVEN, despite rumors to the contrary, to catch all attempts at system modification.

LOL! You're serious? Ask anyone for comparison between OS X iTunes vs. Windows iTunes. There's a reason why people hate iTunes on Windows...

And thats Apple's fault for porting iTunes rather than making it a native Windows app. But the good thing about Windows is that you actually have a choice besides iTunes and VLC and other players that are still in very beta states.

Because Plastic is so much stronger than Aluminum... right...? Anything's vulnerable in the hands of those who does not care for their investments.

Have you felt how soft the aluminum casing over the screen and bottom is on the "unibody" Macs? It feels like you could dent it by just tapping on it.

And that's exactly why Apple wins the "best service" and blah blah most of the time; Example One Example Two and many more.. just google.

Yeah, Apple's service is so good that I can call AppleCare right now at 9PM on Saturday night and hear a message telling me to call back during normal business hours.

Apple's service only gets such high rankings because the fans refuse to accept truths. For example, if you read around here, you'll find people who are "extremely happy" that their Macs finally work after 7 motherboard replacements and a few system replacements. All that to finally get a working system and they praise Apple. While any normal person would have demanded their money back well before it even got to the third motherboard replacement.

Er......... ok.. so 4.5 is worse than 3.5, yes. And MacBook is quoted at 5 hours in the beginning, so.. 4.5 doesn't sound too bad to me at all....

I like how you ignored my comment about my HP beating the Mac by hours while using the 12 cell battery.

And I think you need to get your MacBook checked at the closest Apple Store. Your Mac's screen isn't bright enough for you at 50%? Many people complain that it's too bright at the lowest settings... As with myself.

Every Mac I've owned (3) and all that I've used (many friends, most of which have sold their Macs and gone back to PCs now) have all had dark screens below 50%. The lowest setting on ANY Mac I've used, including the overhyped MacBook Pro with LED backlight, has been far too dark at lowest settings. Enough to cause eye strain. I value my health more than my ability to tell myself something is great when its not.

My HP at lowest is brighter than the Mac at 50%

But the OS, service and all combined, it really isn't a bad deal.

The OS? Let me know when it can do hardware bitstream decoding of video, thanks. Windows did that in the 90s and OS X still doesn't do. But at least Apple finally put in pre-emptive multi-tasking, more than half a decade after Windows had.

Oh and the service? Yeah its so great when the phone service closes at 6PM local time and is closed on the weekends. Its also great how you have to put up a CC to diagnose hardware issues after 90 days. Oh and that $350 extended warranty doesn't even cover accidental damage.

By the way, can you show me the same spec laptop as MB or MBP that costs less than half? I'd be delighted. And please compare reasonably.

At HP for about $75 more than the $1299 MacBook you get a 1680x1050 glass 15.4" display, 512MB GeForce 9600M GT, 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, blu-ray, 250GB HDD, Vista Home Premium 64-bit, HDMI, fingerprint reader, card reader, eSATA, 4 USB ports, etc. etc. etc.

But I just think that's the extra thing I have to pay for the great service, great reputation, and great machines

Great service? Yeah thats why I was without a MacBook for a combined total of over 2 months. When I had a problem with HP I was out for less than a week and they replaced the system without the hassles or me having to drive nearly 100 miles.

Great machines? Let me know when the MacBook has dedicated graphics or blu-ray or HDMI.

Reputation? Apple's reputation is about the same as Bose.

OSX simply has Vista beat right now.

Oh yeah? Is that why OS X still doesn't do things that Windows was doing back in the 90s?

It's unstable (3rd party fault, MS fault...who cares)

PEBKAC. I've been running Vista for almost 2 years on multiple computers and have never had a crash. On the other hand, I've had Tiger and Leopard running on multiple Macs and they've crashed doing all sorts of things, like emptying trash or clicking a picture link on gamespot.com.

crazy resource intensive and not good for laptops.

Thats why, even though my MacBook has a Penryn Core 2 Duo and DD3 RAM and a faster FSB, my HP uses overall less CPU cycles for mundane tasks? Oh and Leopard REQUIRES just as much RAM as Vista. Leopard on 1GB of RAM is every bit as slow as Vista is.

(constant updates, trojans, browser hijacks, driver incompatibility, data corruption, etc.) simply buy a Mac...for now.

Trojans? Only if the user actively downloads, installs, and runs malware, despite the multiple warnings from the browser, OS, Defender, UAC, etc.

Constant updates? Thats a bad thing? You do know that Apple releases about as many updates as Microsoft, right?

Browser hijacks affect all platforms.

Driver incompatibility? Don't make things up. That is something that just does not happen. I've been using Windows longer than most people here have even owned a computer at all, and I have NEVER had an instance of driver incompatibility. That is just a lie spread by Apple fanboys.

Data corruption? Again, don't lie. The only way data corruption can occur is if the HDD fails.

The funny thing, though, is that OS X is more likely to cause data loss than Windows. If you're using FileVault in OS X and certain things become corrupted, you're basically SOL.

[kis]

I just moved from a Macbook Pro to an HP after about 10 years of using Macs exclusively. Why?

- The glossy screen on the Macbook Pro sucks. My new dv3550ez also has a glossy screen but glare is a crapload better controlled on that one. The idea of using window-glass for computer screens is mind-f***k if you ask me.
It was impossible to calibrate, the colors were too "poppy" and inaccurate, the glare was (literally) hurting my eyes

- OS X isn't what it used to be. I was having major usability issues because the bluetooth stack is poorly implemented (PAN never worked so I couldn't tether my cell phone - a known issue introduced with the first series of Macbook Airs and now present in all current notebook models, never fixed). They also screwed up the USB module - my Blackberry won't sync without additional drivers and the latter lead to stability issues.

- 10.5.6 rendered my MBP unusable, I had to do a full re-install to get it working again.

- I occasionally need to use bootcamp for my job. Windows is unusable on all Unibody notebooks because the trackpad driver doesn't work. Clicking is extremely inaccurate and sometimes doesn't work at all

- the idiotic choice of external monitor port just beats me. WTF???? There are no monitors even supporting this piece of crap. I have to carry an additional adapter (well, two actually, one for DVI and one for VGA because you can't daisy-chain them) anywhere I go and my TV at home wouldn't display the image without black bars on the side, no matter what I tried.

- Several minor quirks: only 2 USB ports??? No DVI??? No e-Sata??? No card-reader????

Now I'm certainly not saying my HP is the panacea for all computer problems. But it's a decent, well-built, thought-through notebook that's quiet and very fast, offering similiar graphics performance - and it lets me work again the way I want to. Vista has been trouble-free for me so far (except for my multi-function printer that didn't work right under OS X, either) and I'm pretty happy with it - it costs a lot less than a Macbook, and a crap-load less than a MBP. Oh, and swapping harddrives is a breeze, too.

I don't love Windows the way I used to love OS X but I'm thoroughly convinced that Apple has reached the same level of complacency and arrogance Microsoft was starting to show a couple of years ago which led to their products to be designed with the marketing department in mind rather than geared towards the needs of the customers. Microsoft probably has learned their lesson (for now) but it'll take Apple years of declining sales figures and customer protest to get their act together. Until then it's byebye from me.

[Ploki]

mosx:
microsoft office was first done for Mac OS in 1989. was done for windows on 1990.
so no, mac os didnt do what windows did in 1990, because it was doing it a year earlier.

windows needs an upkeep. period. it deteriorates itself.

you also forgot that vista needed a hell of a computer to be ran, it was one of the first critiques of the vista system.

"Media Center, included with Vista Home Premium, walks all over Front Row."
oh yeah, now lets just figure out which version of vista we must buy. its probably not included OEM. wink wink.

touch pad is great. every machater windowsuser has admitted that to me first time it tried it. ;)
its a picture of "finger bendable" alu mb somewhere here. it fell from 1 meter and everything works flawless. it is bend. but it works flawless.
so, no finger bending.

not a single crash on vista? the because you are biased. if you would treat mac same as vista it would probably start to **** gold out of the cd tray.


AND you are a dickhead. seriously. i have two very average users in my broad family. they dont see trojans as experienced users do. they click on "OK" on a banner. thats an average user... not someone who knows their system to the bone. and to an average user, os x is more friendly and less vulnerable. you can assign that to "user stupidity" as much as you like but thats a fact... average users are the big marketshare.

on the other hand, you have unix terminal on osx which is , you have to admit, more advanced than "powershell".

your opinion is biased on one single experience and "my friends opinions". ive actually used and set up several macs and about 10 times more pc's. just today ive installed xp to an eeePC via usb dongle. yes, me, not "my friend who has gone back to mac now"

[mosx]

microsoft office was first done for Mac OS in 1989. was done for windows on 1990.
so no, mac os didnt do what windows did in 1990, because it was doing it a year earlier.

Oh yeah?

Microsoft Office huh?

That's not nearly as important as say... pre-emptive multi-tasking. You know, the ability to run multiple applications at once without the "in focus" application eating up all system resources and grinding the rest to a halt.

Windows had that in Windows NT 3.1, way back in 1993. Windows 95 had it in 1995. Whats even better than that is DOS applications had pre-emptive multi-tasking via Windows way back in November of 1985. A full 15 years before Mac OS.

Mac OS didn't finally have pre-emptive multi-tasking until Mac OS X was released in the year 2000.

Windows also had multi-processor and SMP support before Mac OS did as well.

Oh and Windows laid the ground work for full hardware acceleration for video back in the 90s, where Snow Leopard will be the first OS to finally accelerate video beyond basic HWMC for MPEG-2.

Windows also had proper audio hardware acceleration before Mac OS as well.

Mac OS is always playing catch up to Windows.

windows needs an upkeep. period. it deteriorates itself.

The same way OS X needs Onyx or other maintenance apps. Not to mention all the searching for config and plist files that are left behind by application uninstallations.

you also forgot that vista needed a hell of a computer to be ran, it was one of the first critiques of the vista system.

The actual system requirements are about the same as Leopard's system requirements. And running two systems now, one with Vista and one with Leopard, I can tell you from EXPERIENCE that their real world system requirements are exactly the same.

oh yeah, now lets just figure out which version of vista we must buy. its probably not included OEM. wink wink.

Media Center is included with Vista Home Premium and Vista Ultimate.

The "OEM" versions you can buy from Newegg like this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116488 are no different than the retail versions you buy, other than the fact that its significantly cheaper and Microsoft won't give you phone support.

It includes EVERYTHING the retail copy does.

not a single crash on vista? the because you are biased. if you would treat mac same as vista it would probably start to **** gold out of the cd tray.

Hah I don't treat OS X "bad" at all. How can I be treating it bad when it crashes when I click "Burn" in a "burn folder" or I empty the trash of jpgs and it crashes? Or I click a link to go to the next screenshot on a website and the OS crashes? Thats just normal use! Thats not treating anything bad.

Just another example of how Apple apologists feel OS X can do no wrong and its always the users fault.

i have two very average users in my broad family. they dont see trojans as experienced users do. they click on "OK" on a banner.

And if you're using IE7, XP SP2 or 3, FF3, or Vista, clicking "okay" on a banner on a site will give the user several warnings that malicious software is attempting to be installed. Then they have to click through to install it. Then the OS will give multiple warnings that it is malicious and system changing software.

on the other hand, you have unix terminal on osx which is , you have to admit, more advanced than "powershell".

This is 2009, I shouldn't have to even THINK about a command line interface.

your opinion is biased on one single experience and "my friends opinions". ive actually used and set up several macs and about 10 times more pc's. just today ive installed xp to an eeePC via usb dongle. yes, me, not "my friend who has gone back to mac now"

Good for you. Thats ridiculously easy to do. I've installed Linux on to a USB drive that I could boot PCs off of. Do I get a badge for that? How about the fact that I have a separate unibody MacBook and Windows PC?

[chaosbunny]

Hah I don't treat OS X "bad" at all. How can I be treating it bad when it crashes when I click "Burn" in a "burn folder" or I empty the trash of jpgs and it crashes? Or I click a link to go to the next screenshot on a website and the OS crashes? Thats just normal use! Thats not treating anything bad.

And I can tell you from EXPERIENCE that things like that never happened on the 5 Macs I have owned since 2001 and the 4 Macs I set up for friends since then.

I can also tell you that I had to reinstall XP on my mbp recently because the new "official" nvidea drivers from their website messed up the OS (wireless connections were no longer possible because the wireless card didn't even show up in the hardware profile anymore). Still, maybe it was my fault and I won't bitch about Windows because of it. Since it was a basic XP install with only Fallout 3 as additional software it didn't take long to reinstall - certainly shorter than trying to fix this issue for me. And again, I don't dislike Windows, like many but not all others OS X is more efficient and comfortable for me to work with, plus it's the standard in my field of work.

If your Mac really crashes all the time you are doing something wrong. I don't know what from the information you provided, but from all the Macs I have set up, and the 50+ OS X systems I encountered at various agencies I freelance for none have these kind of problems you describe.

[Kilamite]

The multitouch trackpad is a big winner for me. PC laptops tend to have really small trackpads, and aren't always very responsive either. But the unibody construction - the strongest consumer laptop there is, is a huge plus. It feels very strong, and it is very strong. No movement or flexing in the construction, and unlike plastic PC laptops, it won't crack or creak.

blah blah

Haha.

I won't even feed the troll. Absolutely no point - can't argue with arrogance. He obviously has little experience with OS X and Macs and not much of a life to write such a long post with no facts and all speculation.

[LucyFM]

I was setting up someones PC laptop yesterday, the trackpad seemed the size of a postage stamp compared to my unibody !!

I completely agree! I don't know how I survived before the 2 finger scrolling!

[reclusivemonkey]

IMHO The magsafe power connector is worth £100 on the price of a laptop alone. The number of times its saved my only four month old MacBook is incredible.

[cogsinister]

This is getting silly now, time out........

[Theirishjoey]

- They're cooler :cool:

:D That actually made me laugh so loudly the people sitting next to me are like wtf?

[Primejimbo]

Um.. what? ExpressCard doesn't "break". You might have somehow broken something yourself though.



Again this is why people get upset with you. You assume you are always right and everyone else is wrong and doesn't know what they are doing. My Express reader broke and in BOTH cases it was poor solder connections. I was going to have it fixed, but I didn't see it was worth paying the money to fix it. I was going to fix it myself, but I really did care and since I got a free express reader from work, I saw no point in fixing it.
And it's amazing how most of the garbage I read what you write is all opinion of "your" experience. I NEVER heard anyone who had as many problems with you as you do with Apple... I wonder if the problem is the person sitting on the chair?

[Ryuukumori]

At HP for about $75 more than the $1299 MacBook you get a 1680x1050 glass 15.4" display, 512MB GeForce 9600M GT, 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, blu-ray, 250GB HDD, Vista Home Premium 64-bit, HDMI, fingerprint reader, card reader, eSATA, 4 USB ports, etc. etc. etc.



The ONLY question I have for you is... where is this on HP's website? I don't see it. I'm not going to attack your opinion on HP, I just want to see where it is. What model, what configurations, any online coupons used, etc.

And to everyone else:

This isn't a Mac vs. PC thread. I apologize for mentioning PCs on the OP, but it's only because I have used them. On MBs, you still can't change the RAM without removing the frame either.

So in the end, let's drop the idea of this comparison, and move solely on why premiums on Macs are so reputable for some GOOD things that are overlooked. :)

[Tinknock71]

.

So in the end, let's drop the idea of this comparison, and move solely on why premiums on Macs are so reputable for some GOOD things that are overlooked. :)

Like Keyboards that light up!:cool:

[paetrick]

At HP for about $75 more than the $1299 MacBook you get a 1680x1050 glass 15.4" display, 512MB GeForce 9600M GT, 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, blu-ray, 250GB HDD, Vista Home Premium 64-bit, HDMI, fingerprint reader, card reader, eSATA, 4 USB ports, etc. etc. etc.



This is why I hate PC vs MAC price discussions, people constantly compares a 13.3" laptop with 15.4" PC's. The formfactor has A HUUUGE deal on the price, how can you not understand this?

The 13.3" macbook is one of the cheapest 13" laptops out there. And yes, the dell 13.3" XPS is 70 dollar cheaper than the macbook. Look at a 13" vaio, the price is 200 ++ dollars more than a macbook with the same spec.


I'm not saying apple has a great build quality but c'on when 1/5 people buying a dell XPS where the logo is about falling of, and the screen isn't centered. I could not even get my USB cable in the freaking usbport because the "chassi" was to tight. -CPU whine and fan controlling that sucks (30 minutes of total silence then the fans kicks in @ highest RPM for 10 min to cool things of) Yeaah great. And you get all this with worlds greatest OS -> VISTA. Oh did i mention? it's in plastic. Seriously, IF you've ever had a XPS 13.3 and a macbook 13.3 aluminium side by side, you would think the price would diff more than just 70 dollars.

[cogsinister]

This is why I hate PC vs MAC price discussions, people constantly compares a 13.3" laptop with 15.4" PC's. The formfactor has A HUUUGE deal on the price, how can you not understand this?

The 13.3" macbook is one of the cheapest 13" laptops out there. And yes, the dell 13.3" XPS is 70 dollar cheaper than the macbook. Look at a 13" vaio, the price is 200 ++ dollars more than a macbook with the same spec.


I'm not saying apple has a great build quality but c'on when 1/5 people buying a dell XPS where the logo is about falling of, and the screen isn't centered. I could not even get my USB cable in the freaking usbport because the "chassi" was to tight. -CPU whine and fan controlling that sucks (30 minutes of total silence then the fans kicks in @ highest RPM for 10 min to cool things of) Yeaah great. And you get all this with worlds greatest OS -> VISTA. Oh did i mention? it's in plastic. Seriously, IF you've ever had a XPS 13.3 and a macbook 13.3 aluminium side by side, you would think the price would diff more than just 70 dollars.

LOL i love the description of the Dell...........

[stoox]

- They're cooler :cool:

Very True.

You Look much cooler in a coffee shop with a mac rather than a big ugly Sony Laptop

[robanga]

Agreed magsafe is a small but important item that sets MB's apart.

Enough can not be said about the difference between Windows Vista and OS X. The former is amazingly frustrating. I have both OS's one residing in a Dell and I really have tried to be balanced in my opinions to friends and colleagues but it is not easy. The experience of the OS on the Apple side is so superior, just from the lack of nagging issues, whether they be wireless issues, Bluetooth issues or security issues.

[Tinknock71]

This is why I hate PC vs MAC price discussions, people constantly compares a 13.3" laptop with 15.4" PC's. The formfactor has A HUUUGE deal on the price, how can you not understand this?

The 13.3" macbook is one of the cheapest 13" laptops out there. And yes, the dell 13.3" XPS is 70 dollar cheaper than the macbook. Look at a 13" vaio, the price is 200 ++ dollars more than a macbook with the same spec.


I'm not saying apple has a great build quality but c'on when 1/5 people buying a dell XPS where the logo is about falling of, and the screen isn't centered. I could not even get my USB cable in the freaking usbport because the "chassi" was to tight. -CPU whine and fan controlling that sucks (30 minutes of total silence then the fans kicks in @ highest RPM for 10 min to cool things of) Yeaah great. And you get all this with worlds greatest OS -> VISTA. Oh did i mention? it's in plastic. Seriously, IF you've ever had a XPS 13.3 and a macbook 13.3 aluminium side by side, you would think the price would diff more than just 70 dollars.

I'm sitting here reading this and laughing my butt off:D Do the Dell's even come in a box?:D I had a 12.1 Dell XPS and it was the biggest train wreck of a computer. I love the fan part. so true!!!!!!

[Jiten]

Although some people do not like the feel of the keyboard I think they are great because they exhibit absolutely no flex.

[cogsinister]

Although some people do not like the feel of the keyboard I think they are great because they exhibit absolutely no flex.

And the solid ally cases exhibit no Flecks ( of splintering plastic) like the Whitebooks.........

[danimal99]

I bought a 14.1" Acer laptop back in August that carried me through this past Fall semester just fine. It has Vista Home Premium on it, and gave me not a bit of problems. However, literally 2 days after I bought it, my boss wanted me to get to work on iPhone programming so I've been in the market for a MacBook. I already have a Mac Mini which I had already been using for some work, but I needed portability.

Anyway, that Acer laptop gave me no issues at all, and anybody who says that Vista is slow, a resource hog, insecure, etc. is really just showing their bias. Vista is just as good an OS as OSX is. Incidentally, during that time my Mac Mini was taken over by someone temporarily, so quit pretending its secure. I had DMZ'd the Mini on my router so I could see how usable VNC would be from campus. I was using the Vine VNC server with a password, but APPARENTLY OSX also had a port open, without a password, and some joker jumped on my Mac Mini and was trying to change my password. I was fortunate enough to just happen to fire up VNC Viewer and see it happening.

PC vs. Mac arguments, especially on a Mac-only forum is a silly waste of time, but at least be honest about the differences.

I still have not got a MacBook, mainly because the price is too darn high. The base MB is twice what I paid for that Acer laptop, which is at least as good in specs as the current WhiteBook. OSX isn't $500 better than Vista. And the case on my Acer doesn't have any freakin' cracks, either. :)

[Jiten]

I bought a 14.1" Acer laptop back in August that carried me through this past Fall semester just fine. It has Vista Home Premium on it, and gave me not a bit of problems. However, literally 2 days after I bought it, my boss wanted me to get to work on iPhone programming so I've been in the market for a MacBook. I already have a Mac Mini which I had already been using for some work, but I needed portability.

Anyway, that Acer laptop gave me no issues at all, and anybody who says that Vista is slow, a resource hog, insecure, etc. is really just showing their bias. Vista is just as good an OS as OSX is. Incidentally, during that time my Mac Mini was taken over by someone temporarily, so quit pretending its secure. I had DMZ'd the Mini on my router so I could see how usable VNC would be from campus. I was using the Vine VNC server with a password, but APPARENTLY OSX also had a port open, without a password, and some joker jumped on my Mac Mini and was trying to change my password. I was fortunate enough to just happen to fire up VNC Viewer and see it happening.

PC vs. Mac arguments, especially on a Mac-only forum is a silly waste of time, but at least be honest about the differences.

I still have not got a MacBook, mainly because the price is too darn high. The base MB is twice what I paid for that Acer laptop, which is at least as good in specs as the current WhiteBook. OSX isn't $500 better than Vista. And the case on my Acer doesn't have any freakin' cracks, either. :)

I think a lot of people here are cross platform folks so its kosher. I have a Sony Vaio Z which I adore as much as my little Alu Macbook book for different reasons I love my Macs. Vista never really gave me any problems as well.

Guys, I think it is unfair to compare a premium laptop like the Macbook to cheapo notebook PCs. Even if the macbook is considered "low end" by Apple users.

[nope7308]

I noticed this because with some experience using friends' Toshiba's, HPs,and Sony Vaio's, they are all hard to replace the hard drive. MacBooks make it really easy.

I mean, this is one little plus for this notebook. I am trying to compare and contrast the latest benefits and pluses MacBooks have over other PC laptops to better my chances of getting one for college in June.

Any ideas? These are things I have so far.

1. MacOSX (no viruses, clean, non-bloated, etc)
2. Hard drive replacement (and battery too) easy
3. Sturdier design (by personal experience using these)
4. Longest battery life I know of
5. Reliability and longetivity

This is not a comparison between Mac and PC. Let's look solely on why Macs are reputable for good things that stand apart for its price.

Let me take a stab at answering your question since almost everyone else has forgotten about it. Also, since this appears to be an attempt at convincing your parents, I have tailored my answers accordingly...

Reasons to go Mac:
- Stable/Secure OS that will run under old hardware (unlike MS). It WILL last 4 years
- Time Machine (easy backups for homework)
- Better build quality (case, keyboard, screen, internal assembly, etc.) - fewer repairs, longer lasting, better resale value
- Thinnest/lightest notebook in its class (important for trips to the library)
- Environmentally responsible

Most importantly, don't pretend that Macs are a better 'value' than a PC. The truth is, all Apple computers come with a premium. It's best to acknowledge this fact, but then provide a reasoned argument for why you think that slight premium is worth it. If you can show your parents that you've done the research and made an informed decision, then everything should go over smoothly.

Additionally, it would help if you could borrow a friend's Mac to give it a test-drive prior to buying one yourself. If you can do that, then also let your parents play around with it so they know what you're talking about it.

Finally, remember to suggest the Apple Refurb store and potentially splitting 50/50 on the computer. Parents love that kind of money-saving talk. Also, remember to be realistic. If you're swimming in debt and really can't afford a $1300+ computer, then perhaps you should just settle for the time being. Good things come to those who wait :)

Study hard.

[Ryuukumori]

Let me take a stab at answering your question since almost everyone else has forgotten about it. Also, since this appears to be an attempt at convincing your parents, I have tailored my answers accordingly...

Reasons to go Mac:
- Stable/Secure OS that will run under old hardware (unlike MS). It WILL last 4 years
- Time Machine (easy backups for homework)
- Better build quality (case, keyboard, screen, internal assembly, etc.) - fewer repairs, longer lasting, better resale value
- Thinnest/lightest notebook in its class (important for trips to the library)
- Environmentally responsible

Most importantly, don't pretend that Macs are a better 'value' than a PC. The truth is, all Apple computers come with a premium. It's best to acknowledge this fact, but then provide a reasoned argument for why you think that slight premium is worth it. If you can show your parents that you've done the research and made an informed decision, then everything should go over smoothly.

Additionally, it would help if you could borrow a friend's Mac to give it a test-drive prior to buying one yourself. If you can do that, then also let your parents play around with it so they know what you're talking about it.

Finally, remember to suggest the Apple Refurb store and potentially splitting 50/50 on the computer. Parents love that kind of money-saving talk. Also, remember to be realistic. If you're swimming in debt and really can't afford a $1300+ computer, then perhaps you should just settle for the time being. Good things come to those who wait :)

Study hard.

I see where you're coming from, but it isn't exactly convincing my parents. I am more on the line of convincing myself. ;)

I am not in debt, nor am I in ANY financial turmoil. I am finding myself battling the premium of a Mac. They are amazing machines, as I have attempted to fix a friend's old Powerbook. Used Leopard on it too.

And waiting until June, actually, I will be doing the iPod promo. That way, it's cheaper than the refurb store, plus I get a new machine instead of used. But, refurbs are checked, so yeah. A bit of a pull toward each side.

Thanks for the assistance. I am heavily leaning toward a MacBook, and then building an i7 custom PC rig for PCI Express music recording.

[thejadedmonkey]

Thanks for the assistance. I am heavily leaning toward a MacBook, and then building an i7 custom PC rig for PCI Express music recording.

I agree that the current intel lineup in a custom build is the (most fun) way to go, and a macbook is a nice travel machine.

[jav6454]

I see where you're coming from, but it isn't exactly convincing my parents. I am more on the line of convincing myself. ;)

I am not in debt, nor am I in ANY financial turmoil. I am finding myself battling the premium of a Mac. They are amazing machines, as I have attempted to fix a friend's old Powerbook. Used Leopard on it too.

And waiting until June, actually, I will be doing the iPod promo. That way, it's cheaper than the refurb store, plus I get a new machine instead of used. But, refurbs are checked, so yeah. A bit of a pull toward each side.

Thanks for the assistance. I am heavily leaning toward a MacBook, and then building an i7 custom PC rig for PCI Express music recording.

I am betting by that time MacBooks will be on the verge of being updated. A Mac is a solid investment, it won't loose $$ value like a PC. With Apple Care you get even more peace of mind.

If your parents can't see a Mac purchase, then I'd suggest convincing them with facts rather than words. A small Powerpoint presentation how Macs are better for the student life, stable, and whatever fact you can find around (using well documented sources and reviews) can help out. A visit to the Apple Store will also be a great thing to do. Get to know what you are trying to buy.

To any PC lovers out there. Check out Chris Pirillo (or however you say his name), he was a hard-core Mac Hater and Vista lover. Respected among PC die hard fans, he now runs and loves OS X. So, he changed for a reason. lol

Note - I will not respond to comments or quotes from a certain person who likes writing epistles on how PCs > Macs.

[nope7308]

I see where you're coming from, but it isn't exactly convincing my parents. I am more on the line of convincing myself. ;)

I am not in debt, nor am I in ANY financial turmoil. I am finding myself battling the premium of a Mac. They are amazing machines, as I have attempted to fix a friend's old Powerbook. Used Leopard on it too.

And waiting until June, actually, I will be doing the iPod promo. That way, it's cheaper than the refurb store, plus I get a new machine instead of used. But, refurbs are checked, so yeah. A bit of a pull toward each side.

Thanks for the assistance. I am heavily leaning toward a MacBook, and then building an i7 custom PC rig for PCI Express music recording.

My bad...

I know what you mean about battling the price premium - I went through the same thing. Oddly enough, I have absolutely no regrets about it (and I really hate spending money).

From my experience, what makes the premium worth it, is simply the attention to detail. Everything is well thought out on this machine. I think the trackpad/gestures are a gift from God because they improved my productivity 5-fold. It may sound a bit ridiculous, but when you have 6 different windows open and you're reading various journal articles, it makes switching between them a breeze. I never have to worry about the 'ghost in the machine' because OS X is far less prone to 'hiccups' than Windows. Say what you will, but in my lifetime, I've had to format Windows far more times than I care to remember.

At the end of the day, it's like jumping in a pool. It's going to happen eventually, and the first three seconds are going to feel very cold. After that, however, you're going to wish you jumped in earlier. Or, you can think of it this way... if you're going to drop a large amount of money, you might as well spend a little extra to get something you know you will be happy with. Why spend $1000 on something that will only partially meet your expectations?

Good luck!

[mosx]

And I can tell you from EXPERIENCE that things like that never happened on the 5 Macs I have owned since 2001 and the 4 Macs I set up for friends since then.

And I can tell you from EXPERIENCE that my multiple Macs have crashed for seemingly no reason in OS X while being rock solid in Windows.

I can also tell you that I had to reinstall XP on my mbp recently because the new "official" nvidea drivers from their website messed up the OS (wireless connections were no longer possible because the wireless card didn't even show up in the hardware profile anymore)

It's "nvidia".

And there is absolutely no possible way that GPU drivers would have affected wireless drivers. No way at all. That is completely impossible. They don't interact in any way at all.

If your Mac really crashes all the time you are doing something wrong.

Of course, it's always the users fault when it comes to Macs but its always the PCs fault when it comes to PCs.

Somehow its the users fault when OS X crashes by clicking "empty trash" or "Burn" in a burn folder. Somehow its the users fault the OS crashes when clicking through game screenshots at a website, or, on a fresh boot of the OS, moving the mouse cursor. Yeah the user is really doing something wrong there!

But the unibody construction - the strongest consumer laptop there is, is a huge plus. It feels very strong, and it is very strong. No movement or flexing in the construction, and unlike plastic PC laptops, it won't crack or creak.

You must have 0 experience with PC notebooks. A well built consumer notebook, like the HP dv5 series or even their older series going back, like the dv6x00 series even the 5000 series, have never been "flexible" or anything.

In fact, the aluminum housing holding the LCD and the bottom cover on the "unibody" Mac is SOFTER than any of the plastics on my HP dv6500t.

He obviously has little experience with OS X and Macs and not much of a life to write such a long post with no facts and all speculation.

Didn't take long for the school yard insults to begin.

I've been using a Mac for nearly 2 years now. I have plenty of experience with its crashing and lack of modern features compared to Windows.

And it takes me all of 5 minutes to write a long post. It's called being a fast typer ;)

IMHO The magsafe power connector is worth £100 on the price of a laptop alone. The number of times its saved my only four month old MacBook is incredible.

It'll be even more incredible when the cable frays and starts to spark and becomes a fire hazard.

My Express reader broke and in BOTH cases it was poor solder connections. I was going to have it fixed, but I didn't see it was worth paying the money to fix it.

If the ExpressCard reader actually broke because of the solder points, then that means the user was being overly rough.

I've had several PCs with ExpressCard slots over the years and I've used multiple devices in all of them, removing and inserting new cards throughout the day, and I haven't had a single one break.

ExpressCard slots are actually designed to have constant insertion and removal. So if it broke due at any solder point, that means the user caused it.

And it's amazing how most of the garbage I read what you write is all opinion of "your" experience. I NEVER heard anyone who had as many problems with you as you do with Apple... I wonder if the problem is the person sitting on the chair?

Because, again, it's the users fault when they click "Empty Trash" and the entire OS locks up. Or they move the mouse and the entire OS locks up. Yeah, thats definitely the users fault.

If you don't think OS X has any problems like what I've described, you need to venture outside of these forums or talk to people who aren't diehard Apple fans and are ready to discuss their issues. I know at least 30 people who have switched from Mac OS back to Windows in the last 6 months and it was all due to stability issues with OS X itself.

The ONLY question I have for you is... where is this on HP's website? I don't see it. I'm not going to attack your opinion on HP, I just want to see where it is. What model, what configurations, any online coupons used, etc.

No online coupons. Just go to HP, go to the notebook section, and configure a dv5t for yourself. And don't try any of that junk that others try, like trying to say you need Vista Ultimate when Home Premium has more features than OS X, or that you need an additional expensive photo editing suite when Photo Gallery is built-in and Picassa, Photosmart Express, and others are all free and more powerful than iPhoto.

So in the end, let's drop the idea of this comparison, and move solely on why premiums on Macs are so reputable for some GOOD things that are overlooked.

There isn't any reason why there should be a premium on Macs and there isn't anything good about them for their price. The $1299 MacBook should be $999. The $1599 model should be $1099. The $2499 MacBook Pro should be $1199.

This is why I hate PC vs MAC price discussions, people constantly compares a 13.3" laptop with 15.4" PC's. The formfactor has A HUUUGE deal on the price, how can you not understand this?

And as I've said before, this argument is null and void.

People DO NOT buy the MacBook 13.3" because of the form factor. They buy it because it is ALL THEY CAN AFFORD.

Look at PC sales for proof. 14.1 systems cost roughly the same as 15.4", yet the 15.4" systems sell many times better overall. HP's 13.3" offerings cost the same as their 15.4" and 14.1" systems. Yet people overwhelmingly buy the 15.4" systems.

Why do you think 15.4" systems can be so cheap on the PC side? Because people overwhelmingly buy them in favor of the smaller form factors.

People WANT 15.4" notebooks. And they ONLY buy the MacBook because it is ALL THEY CAN AFFORD. If Apple priced their notebooks the way they should be priced, the 15.4" MacBook Pro would be their most popular computer.

Stable/Secure OS that will run under old hardware (unlike MS). It WILL last 4 years

Stable? Don't even try to tell me that OS X is stable.

And the requirements for Vista and OS X are the same. Each will run on equally old hardware.

The thing is, Vista will run better on older hardware because better older hardware is available on the PC side ;)

You go back to 2002 and the fastest Mac was a 1.25GHz dual processor PowerMac with a Radeon 9000 Pro. PCs had broken past and gone beyond 2GHz, and the AMD Athlon XPs were the fastest processors of that time. Not to mention the fact that PC GPUs were well ahead of the Radeon 9000. A PC from 2002 is much more likely to run Vista smoothly than a Mac from 2002.

Even if you wanna go back 4 years now, to the end of 2004/beginning of 2005.... the fastest PowerMac G5 was running at 2.7GHz with a Radeon 9650. Despite being dual processor, they still didn't run as anywhere close to as fast as the nearly 4GHz Pentium 4s available at the time, and the Athlon 64 X2 available in August of that you pretty much put any processor to shame until the Core 2 was released the following year. Plus we had the GeForce 7000 series on PCs

So a 4 year old PC is MUCH more likely to run Vista better than a 4 year old Mac is likely to run Leopard well.

Actually, I remember one thing funny. When the first Core Duo iMacs and MacBook Pros were coming out, those MOBILE processors were walking all over the G5 PowerMacs in benchmarks and real world tests. That says a lot about just how slow PPC architecture is and was.

Better build quality (case, keyboard, screen, internal assembly, etc.) - fewer repairs, longer lasting, better resale value

Which is why I spent a total of more than 2 months in roughly a year and a half without my Mac due to repairs thanks to bad build quality. While my aluminum MacBook is much better than my plastic MacBooks, the aluminum housing on it is soft to the touch compared to my HP's plastic.

Thinnest/lightest notebook in its class (important for trips to the library)

The 13.3" MacBook is a full pound lighter than an average 15.4" PC notebook.

Plus you carry your notebook in a case, right? So the thinness doesn't matter. Most people would rather have more power and proper cooling anyway.

A Mac is a solid investment, it won't loose $$ value like a PC. With Apple Care you get even more peace of mind.

Macs are losing value faster and faster these days as people realize that they're vastly overpriced compared to PCs, thanks to them now having the same hardware. I've seen previous generation MacBook Pros that went for $2499 new going for less than half of that now and still not selling, as people realize that they're just not worth the money.

Plus AppleCare doesn't cover anything it should, like accidental damage.

Check out Chris Pirillo (or however you say his name), he was a hard-core Mac Hater and Vista lover. Respected among PC die hard fans, he now runs and loves OS X. So, he changed for a reason.

Chris Pirillo? The guy that went crazy and got kicked off Call for Help because he generally didn't know what he was talking about and now he has a blog that nobody really cares about also?

[chaosbunny]

It's "nvidia".

And there is absolutely no possible way that GPU drivers would have affected wireless drivers. No way at all. That is completely impossible. They don't interact in any way at all.

Of course, it's always the users fault when it comes to Macs but its always the PCs fault when it comes to PCs.

Somehow its the users fault when OS X crashes by clicking "empty trash" or "Burn" in a burn folder. Somehow its the users fault the OS crashes when clicking through game screenshots at a website, or, on a fresh boot of the OS, moving the mouse cursor. Yeah the user is really doing something wrong there!



Sorry about the typo, somehow I often write "nvidea" instead of "invidia", even when I google it or something, don't know why. :o

But still after I installed these drivers the wireless card wasn't recognized anymore, you can claim that this is impossible as much as you want. I only installed Fallout 3 and nothing else on this system, and it worked for 2 months until I installed these drivers.

I guess it might be a combination of the OS and user error, like I wrote in my first post "maybe I did something wrong".

The same goes for your OS X experiences. Different machines & different users end up to use OS X and Windows differently.
Just look how different the opinions on Vista are, in this thread alone. One claims it to be perfectly stable, another claims it to be a crashing nightmare.
I have never really used Vista, since I have no use for it, and I don't claim it to be anything. For my occasional gaming needs XP is enough and for work I have a perfectly stable OS X 10.5.6 on 3 machines, and that's all I need for now. ;)

Like I said - combination of the OS and user error. That said, I still recommend and also know IT professionals who recommend a Mini or a MacBook especially to computer illiterate friends and family. Of course you can get a pc with better specs cheaper, but these people don't need that better specs for writing stuff, checking mails and browsing. For these tasks you don't notice a difference between an i7 machine and a 1 ghz G4. And in general if you don't know much about computers you can mess up Windows much more than OS X. In general, which doesn't mean it's the same for everybody.

[Ploki]

mosx:
so yes, term in 2009. so how are you going to access remote servers? via remotedesktop ? :D

yet i havent encountered a single crash while "burning a CD" or "emptying trash"...
infact, ive just burned a CD. its works flawlessy and i havent got a crash.
how is that possible?

by the way, i have the same argument for you "Optical media in 2009?"


so, either you are unable to operate a mac (which is easier to operate, at least at basics), or you got a faulty mac. happens. happened to me with at least 3 pcs (and all 3 macs ive (2 of which are mine) dealt with havent got problems.)

and now you are telling me that macs are unable to burn a CD?

[mosx]

But still after I installed these drivers the wireless card wasn't recognized anymore, you can claim that this is impossible as much as you want. I only installed Fallout 3 and nothing else on this system, and it worked for 2 months until I installed these drivers.

I would put it on Apple. Their Windows driver support is awful. That new driver for the unibody Macs that was supposed to fix our trackpad problems did absolutely nothing for people who COULD install it. For some, like me, it wouldn't install at all.

That said, I still recommend and also know IT professionals who recommend a Mini or a MacBook especially to computer illiterate friends and family.

I wouldn't recommend a Mac to anyone based on the price alone.

Windows is definitely no less user friendly than OS X, and they miss out on far too much by limiting themselves to a Mac.

Plus, $599 for a computer with only 1GB of RAM and a CD writer? Not worth it. Thats like 2003 specs right there.

Of course you can get a pc with better specs cheaper, but these people don't need that better specs for writing stuff, checking mails and browsing. For these tasks you don't notice a difference between an i7 machine and a 1 ghz G4.

What? Are you kidding? The G4s were so ridiculously slow. You wouldn't even be able to run youtube or any flash content on one of those. With the way OS X wastes CPU cycles on Intel processors, I'd hate to see just how poorly a 1GHz G4 would run Leopard.

so yes, term in 2009. so how are you going to access remote servers? via remotedesktop ?

Why would I need to?

yet i havent encountered a single crash while "burning a CD" or "emptying trash"...
infact, ive just burned a CD. its works flawlessy and i havent got a crash.
how is that possible?

I don't know how its possible. All I know is OS X did it! I had all of my files dragged over to the "Burn Folder", clicked "Burn" and the OS locked up.

Another time I was about to do the same thing and Finder locked up. My other apps were running still and I could receive IMs, but I couldn't interact with Finder at all.

by the way, i have the same argument for you "Optical media in 2009?"

Why not? Taiyo Yuden discs are ridiculously reliable. You can get 438GB worth of storage for $20.

Optical discs are so cheap, and Taiyo Yuden is incredibly reliable, and you can basically burn multiple copies for redundancy.

I've had optical discs out last USB flash drives, even those with long warranties like Corsair. And yes I properly eject and even wait a minute or two before removing the drive.

So I ask again, why not optical media? Taiyo Yuden is incredibly reliable and the media is ridiculously cheap. Plus a good external 20x writer will get that disc out to you in about 4 minutes.

so, either you are unable to operate a mac (which is easier to operate, at least at basics), or you got a faulty mac. happens. happened to me with at least 3 pcs (and all 3 macs ive (2 of which are mine) dealt with havent got problems.)

Once again, it's the USER'S fault when they do something simple like click "Burn" in a "Burn Folder" and the OS itself locks up :rolleyes:

How could that EVER be the users fault? When all the user did was drag and drop files from the "Documents" folder, click "Burn" and the OS locks up?

That is simply NOT the users fault and is the result of an unstable OS.

and now you are telling me that macs are unable to burn a CD?

Not saying that at all. All I said was that OS X is unstable. And it is.

[Jpoon]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220391

For the hardware, they're really not.


If you value the user experience, reliability, OS, software integration, battery life, (little things like the magsafe), build quality (though that's up for discussion), etc. then it's worth it to get a Macbook.

Just be comfortable with the fact that you paid for the latter, and not the fact that you have the best GPU in your notebook and or ports and expandability.

Macbook != bang for buck laptop

[chaosbunny]

What? Are you kidding? The G4s were so ridiculously slow. You wouldn't even be able to run youtube or any flash content on one of those. With the way OS X wastes CPU cycles on Intel processors, I'd hate to see just how poorly a 1GHz G4 would run Leopard.

Who says that 1 ghz G4 for someone who just uses word & a browser for webmail etc. needs to run Leopard? A computer illiterate user won't know or use the differences to Tiger or even Panther. Has anybody got grandpa to use exposé for example? He won't notice or use the differences between XP and Vista either. For grandpa it doesn't matter if he uses an i7 Vista machine or a pentium 3 XP machine, or a 1 ghz G4 performance wise, but the Mac will be more secure and it is less likely that grandpa breaks something by accident.

Not saying that at all. All I said was that OS X is unstable. And it is.

Yes OS X seems to be very unstable, for YOU on YOUR MacBook. Yet for many many others it's perfectly stable. Strange isn't it? All I'm asking is that you don't make stupid generalizations based on your experiences with 1 or 2 Macs. Is it that hard to understand? There are enough people who bash Windows based on 1 or 2 bad experiences or machines they have owned, you are just doing it the other way around. Both ways are not facts, they are opinions. Until you get the difference between opinion and fact I'll leave you and your opinions alone.

[Ploki]

i dont know how is that users fault.
im trying to recreate the problem you are having but ive already wasted 5 CD's. :D

i guess i am extremly lucky to have a magic mac that is able to burn a CD.
oh. and that can empty trash!
or maybe 99,99~9% of mac users are magicians that write CD with their laser eyes because OS X is unable to burn a CD without a crash.

its funny. you had 2 faulty, i had 3 nonfaulty.

i had vista installed on my MP, the system rating was completely maxed out!

but i went with Xp 64 instead becaue the boot time was ridiculously faster and system held up much better.
i actually like XP x86 / x64, its imo the best windows system ever... i was always angry with preXP versions not having NTFS FileSystem which i personally think is great! FAT32 allocation table got wiped so easily if electricty went kaboom while booting...
but anyway,
your personal experience with Mac OS X does not render the system faulty and unstable
as i said a hundred times, 10.5.0 - 10.5.2 worked for me that bad i wished i hadnt bought the damn thing, because of, ironically, FIREWIRE AUDIO... with 10.5.3 out everything works flawless, and yes, i can even burn cds.