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arn
Jun 12, 2002, 09:43 AM
Spymac.com (http://www.spymac.com) had reported that a minor iBook revision was due at MacWorld NY. Gumac (http://www.gumac.com) and Kodawarisan (http://www.kodawarisan.com/ug) provided possible details on such a revision.

The rumors detail a G4 Special Edition 14" iBook due at MWNY.

"Special Edition" iBooks were rumored (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/05/20020517225356.shtml) in mid May.

britboy
Jun 12, 2002, 09:48 AM
Having the iBook move to the G4 processor is a 'minor' update? :confused: That would be the biggest sign yet that a G5 isn't far off!

Spymac.... they've called it right at times though, haven't they?

Backtothemac
Jun 12, 2002, 09:48 AM
I guess they could do this if they wanted to. I don't see it though. The last time that Apple came out with a laptop and then changed it after only about a month or two, people were not really that happy with the situation. Now, that being said, could they? Yes, and it would be very nice, but I just don't see this happening.

Although, if it does, sign me up for one. :D

arn
Jun 12, 2002, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
I guess they could do this if they wanted to. I don't see it though. The last time that Apple came out with a laptop and then changed it after only about a month or two, people were not really that happy with the situation. Now, that being said, could they? Yes, and it would be very nice, but I just don't see this happening.

Although, if it does, sign me up for one. :D

Well, I don't think it's a change, so much as an addition...

When I first read the Spymac post about the iBook revision, I dismissed it as very unlikely since the iBooks had just been revised... however.... a Special Edition iBook in a higher price range ($2000ish or so) seems very possible.

arn

Skandranon
Jun 12, 2002, 09:56 AM
It's.... how do you say?

*************.

(what kinda speeds do they expect the "SE iBooks G4s" to start at? PBG4s currently top out at 800 Mhz... cannibalising sales is never a good idea and trying to differentiate between the two would be amazingly difficult. Unless, of course, Apple pleasantly surprises us with a pimped out Ghz TiBook)

:D

Backtothemac
Jun 12, 2002, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by arn


Well, I don't think it's a change, so much as an addition...

When I first read the Spymac post about the iBook revision, I dismissed it as very unlikely since the iBooks had just been revised... however.... a Special Edition iBook in a higher price range ($2000ish or so) seems very possible.

arn

I hope they do, but the timing would be bad. Not to get on the never happy subject, but they just revised the 14.1 inch iBooks. You go buy one, and one month later, a new model? That would miff me just a bit. Actually it would make me feel like I was living in an Intel world :p But I digress. Anyway, hope they do it, becuase if they do, then we are looking at huge jumps in the pro line.

McFreggle
Jun 12, 2002, 10:00 AM
Maybe... maybe... if it is only a special edition, that is limited edition.

I think they can't keep on changing an existing model and changing and changing... they allready did the 14" screen (which I don't like), and if you ask me, changing the CPU also, would rather ask for a complete redesign...

So I strongly believe iBooks will get a G4 in the near future (to prepare the road for the G5), but I think it will be a complete new design.

Just like the PowerBooks will have to be revised when they go G5, but that's no near future, I guess.

k.

Mr. Anderson
Jun 12, 2002, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by McFreggle
Maybe... maybe... if it is only a special edition, that is limited edition.


This seems logical to me. Could they take old 500 and 667 TiPB mobos and put them in the iBook? Maybe they have some extras hanging around and need to get rid of them.

But to do this without having something else in store for the other lines just doesn't feel right....

Backtothemac
Jun 12, 2002, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet


This seems logical to me. Could they take old 500 and 667 TiPB mobos and put them in the iBook? Maybe they have some extras hanging around and need to get rid of them.

But to do this without having something else in store for the other lines just doesn't feel right....

The only problem is the design of the board itself. Unless they plan on just throwing a G4 on the current board using the same bus, and memory configurations. I don't think that it would work though. I think it would call for an entirely new mobo. Will be neat to see how it plays out.

Megaquad
Jun 12, 2002, 10:27 AM
if they update ibooks they have to update tibooks which would be extremely quick revision,apple didnt do anything like this in its history!

they have to update iMacs that means they have to update powermacs,but if they do,they have to update XServes! and they haven't even started shipping them yet! that means the rev.B XServes will ship one month after they are introduced!

this means that they will bring 4-5 updated products which will not happen,which means the new powermac will be 1 ghz with ddr ram and no faster bus and no 1 ghz imacs (933 mhz perhaps?) which means we're gonna be pissed off

gazelips
Jun 12, 2002, 10:29 AM
It would seem to me that with G3 AND G4 iBooks, Steve's whole "quadrant thing" would be an even bigger mess than it is now (emac, old/new imac, etc.) Everyone seemed to think that was such a great concept when he first returned - is it just outdated, or is Apple just struggling to give us upgrades and can't get the parts to make a complete and satisfying line up with just four offerings?

GPTurismo
Jun 12, 2002, 10:29 AM
It would cut into the sales of the TiBooks to much.

eyelikeart
Jun 12, 2002, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
But to do this without having something else in store for the other lines just doesn't feel right....

agreed...

I would venture to say that if this is true...the G5 or predecessor of the G4 is very close...

they cannot have G4s all across the board...

Backtothemac
Jun 12, 2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by gazeleips
It would seem to me that with G3 AND G4 iBooks, Steve's whole "quadrant thing" would be an even bigger mess than it is now (emac, old/new imac, etc.) Everyone seemed to think that was such a great concept when he first returned - is it just outdated, or is Apple just struggling to give us upgrades and can't get the parts to make a complete and satisfying line up with just four offerings?

Actually, I think it is working very well. The G3 iMac has been the education workhorse for Apple, however, it will either drop in price big time, or go the way of the cube. The G4 iMac is a consumer machine. As nice as it is, real professionals need slots. Now, the concept is solid, and may seem cloudy now, but it will become clear again after MWNY. So to answer your question, no they are not having problems getting the parts to make the lineup work.

drastik
Jun 12, 2002, 10:41 AM
So, looks like we're on a good rev up for July.:D

I predict...

...several threasds about the G5

...several threads about 1ghz iMacs and TiBooks

...a buch of stuff about 10.2

...(with aplogieas to Eye) probably more apple PDA crap.

Personaly, I'm thrilled that its almost July, and I can't wait. Maybe its just hanging around these boards, but apple certianly seems to be gearing up for something big. With the new eMac, I don't see much life for the old iMac. CompUSA want 999.99 for them, which is ridiculous next to the eMac, which the Apple Tech I know says will be n the store today. (he got fifteen drop shipped directly to him from apple.)

If we see G4 iBooks, it is probably the long awaited death of the G3 (cries, clutches Pismo to chest). Whcih, it bers repeating hints at something in store.

benjaminpg
Jun 12, 2002, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by McFreggle

So I strongly believe iBooks will get a G4 in the near future (to prepare the road for the G5), but I think it will be a complete new design.
k.
I agree that there will be a new design if the iBooks go to G4s. Every product that has switched to a g4 processor has had its case changed. The most minor change of course was the switch of the PowerMac, so it might not be a huge change, but there will be one.

Rajj
Jun 12, 2002, 11:20 AM
I think that G3 will ibooks/ iMacs will be but to sleep at MWNY!!!:D
There is really no more love for them:o
Human's want speed and finesse, and that's just something that the G3 cannot offer anymore:cool:

Backtothemac
Jun 12, 2002, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by xrhajj
I think that G3 will ibooks/ iMacs will be but to sleep at MWNY!!!:D
There is really no more love for them:o
Human's want speed and finesse, and that's just something that the G3 cannot offer anymore:cool:

Not to start a fight, but the new G3 iBooks are very snappy. They handle X well, and can run QE. They also are perfect for students and consumers. Not everyone needs to alter 25 meg photoshop files. I think the G3 in the iBook will not die until the uber G4 or G5 is out. It just doesn't make sense to do so.

kdog
Jun 12, 2002, 11:28 AM
Hey - I'm a power user and just picked up a 12" 700mhz G3 iBook w/ 640 ram, 40gig hd. I was a bit reluctant to sing $$ into a G3 but had heard good things about these new iBooks running osX. I've had it for a week and must say it handles 10.1.5 beautifully. Everything's fast, comprable to the speed of os9 on this puppy. I'm quite impressed, and at the low price tag compared to the tibook, I think these iBooks are a good deal.

G4 iBooks so soon? Could be, but I for one am dubious. The sahara G3 chip still has plenty of room to speed up.

Cappy
Jun 12, 2002, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Backtothemac


Not to start a fight, but the new G3 iBooks are very snappy. They handle X well, and can run QE. They also are perfect for students and consumers. Not everyone needs to alter 25 meg photoshop files. I think the G3 in the iBook will not die until the uber G4 or G5 is out. It just doesn't make sense to do so.

If they can bring in a G4 ibook for the same price as a G3 then I say let them. I can't help but think that way too many people are banking on QE being the be all end all of sluggishness on the Macs. I don't think people realize that it will depend on the video card on how much better it *might* be.

It'd be great to be proven wrong since I'm hoping for an ibook before the year is out but Apple has a way of disappointing folks after Jobs gets the hype machine going.

Backtothemac
Jun 12, 2002, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Cappy


If they can bring in a G4 ibook for the same price as a G3 then I say let them. I can't help but think that way too many people are banking on QE being the be all end all of sluggishness on the Macs. I don't think people realize that it will depend on the video card on how much better it *might* be.

It'd be great to be proven wrong since I'm hoping for an ibook before the year is out but Apple has a way of disappointing folks after Jobs gets the hype machine going.

Get you hands on WWDC, and a mac that will run QE, and yes, it is an end all. Everything is very, very friggin fast. That being said, no they can't go G4 and keep the price the same. If the new iMac's had G3's they would be much cheaper. Now, I prefer a G4, but for students, and low end consumers, I say keep the costs down and keep the G3 until the G4 can be had at the same cost.

TypeR389
Jun 12, 2002, 11:47 AM
I am all for the G4 in a new iBook, but make sure they don't shorten the battery life at all. I personally don't do photoshop, and have a desktop to do my video and audio compression, so while having AltiVec on the iBook would be nice, portability and battery life are key for me. I personally would rather see a 1Ghz Sahara in it, rather that a 667-700 G4. I think a lot of 'regular' people would gain more benifit as well. Don't flame me about OSX needing AltiVec, I know it is optimized for it, but in my little world, portability and battery life are King. Now show me a 12" 1Ghz iBook with a Li-Poly battery that gives me 6 hours! Man, I have to stop, my drool is shorting out the peecee I use at work...:p

billiam0878
Jun 12, 2002, 11:48 AM
I don't think it's going to happen. Perhaps in late fall or early winter we'll see an iBook SE with a G4 priced right below the PowerBooks (say $1999 or $2199) but the iBooks were just bumped to Sahara G3's a month ago so Apple is probably going to try to squeeze the most out of the G3. Furthermore, it sounds like the new G3's run well in X and they are less expensive for consumers so I think Apple will stick with the G3 iBook until atleast MWSF '03.

Bill

Sayer
Jun 12, 2002, 11:59 AM
the Product Matrix hasn't been seen for a long time.

Apple is making a lot of hardware that is each tailored to a particular market such as Xserve and eMac. Breaking the iBook into two segments with small/large screens isn't as severe, its just another option as in dekstops and mixing screen sizes.

Adding a third iBook with a G4 would seem silly tho. Unless Apple replaces the 14" G3 iBook with a 14" G4 iBook at about the same price (maybe $1899-ish). Ah-hah!

THAT would make sense. G3/12" for cheap, G4/14" for more "serious" work at a lower price point than the decked out TiBook for the top pros who need that much iron (FCP, DVD).

I'd love a G4/14" iBook for mobile programming and other work. The G4 would help overall in OS X and the occasional distractions (games/DVD).

This obvious of a G4 pushdown to the consumer level for its realized benefits in encoding DVD, OpenGL boost and a snappier OS X. This leaves the pro Desktop/TiBook open for the next major processor either G4/DDR or G5 (whatever it will be).

cjerens
Jun 12, 2002, 12:09 PM
I remember recently reading an article here that said that IBM was reporting that the G3 could be bumped all the way up to 1 Ghz, and that therefore it still had some good life in it. If so, why would Apple be replacing adding a G4 instead of a faster G3 to a special edition iBook? Don't they too want to get the most out of the G3 line? Or would the special edition iBook be sort of like a guinea pig for them to see how the response is to a G4 iBook? That article I read really seemed to say that the G3 wasn't on the way out really soon. What's going on here?

Edge100
Jun 12, 2002, 12:09 PM
G4 iBooks will not happen yet. It makes no sense. Although I'm positive that somewhere on the Apple campus, G4 iBooks are wizzing through Finder tasks as quick as can be, WE will not see them for quite some time.

In the past few days, I have had the pleasure of using both a 700MHz iBook and a 667MHz TiBook. There was no question as to which was the faster machine (PB, for sure, at least in the 'quantitative' Finder tasks), but the iBook was not too shabby. Sticking a G4 in the iBook at this point would mean either:

1) Apple will VASTLY improve the speed of the TiBook

or

2) Apple will cripple the G4 in the iBook to make it seem slower in comparison with the TiBook.

Obviously, option 1 is nice, but I dont think a 1GHz+ TiBook is in the near future. Moreover, I dont think Apple would go for option 2 because we (and the entire tech press) would know it and sales would be hurt.

End result: Faster G3s for the iBook until the TiBook can top 1GHz. This is fine with me, since the G3 can more than hold its own on most tasks (besides the obvious FCP/Photoshop filters, etc.)

blakespot
Jun 12, 2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by gazeleips
It would seem to me that with G3 AND G4 iBooks, Steve's whole "quadrant thing" would be an even bigger mess than it is now (emac, old/new imac, etc.) Everyone seemed to think that was such a great concept when he first returned - is it just outdated, or is Apple just struggling to give us upgrades and can't get the parts to make a complete and satisfying line up with just four offerings?
Yes, this is my main concern here. The "quadrant" product philosophy is great--it was very easy for the consumer to see what is going on. Now it is more cluttered, and I hope this does not create confusion in the minds of the consumer.

http://www.blakespot.com/images/quadrant.gif


blakespot

Wry Cooter
Jun 12, 2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Sayer
the Product Matrix hasn't been seen for a long time.
<snipparoo>
This obvious of a G4 pushdown to the consumer level for its realized benefits in encoding DVD, OpenGL boost and a snappier OS X. This leaves the pro Desktop/TiBook open for the next major processor either G4/DDR or G5 (whatever it will be).

The only way a g4 iBook makes sense is if they raise the ceiling on the TiBooks considerably. It is unlikely that an iBook if bumped to g4 would have a superdrive in any case. They still want people to use iMovie and iTunes though, and altivec helps there.

I say g4 in iBook aint going to happen unless something new is happening in TiBooks at MWNY.

But wouldn't it be nice if no product with a g3 cost more than 1399? g3 iMacs down to 600 bucks, iBooks starting under a 1000? I think if Apple is serious about the SWITCH concept, they are going to have to provide a model or two priced like commodity PCs.

Brent
Jun 12, 2002, 01:18 PM
This is my first post; been lurking for a few months.

Jobs is a smart guy. And Apple is obviously trying to convert PC users over to Macs (as evidenced that they are doing PC/Mac comparos in Apple Stores). They realize that Joe Blow, the average internet user, will look at a Dell and see Pentium 4 and an iBook and see G3 and automatically assume the Pentium is way faster. Apple knows that they need to beef up chip speed, not for the loyal Mac users, who know that a G3 would smoke a PIII and compare to a PIV on many levels, but for the consumers that they are trying to proselytize.

I say Apple is going to turn some heads before summer is over so they can create a lot of hype to sell more computers in Q4.

jamesbhai
Jun 12, 2002, 01:24 PM
not that any of this is unique, but that never stops anyone in here. as a proud owner of a new 700mhz ibook, i can attest that it is very snappy, at least snappier than any ibook i've used before, as well as snappier than the first tibooks (400-500mhz). to upgrade them doesn't make sense with the capital invested in sahara (they could keep those around, but for how long if g4s are already in the 14" ibooks? talk about cluttered!). perhaps modifying the graphics card to 32mb or something, but i doubt it.

mwny02

jaguarjaguarjaguar--will be released in mid-late august

beyond that

2. speed bumped imacs (1ghz)
3. speed bumped powermacs (1.2 or 1.4--g5 mwsf03)
4. xserve
5. speed bumped powerbooks (iffy--1ghz)
6. discounted ipods (stretch)
7. ???

ibooks will be left out, but singularly are ready to hold their own as g3s till mwsf. not till after the g5s are out.

that's all from here...

jamesbhai
Jun 12, 2002, 01:27 PM
i forgot the non-hardware/software item...

mac vs pc...the showdown strategy. detailing the new commercials, the logic behind and plans for the future (i.e. showdowns at apple stores or ...). if this is the largest ad campaign since Think Different, you better believe Jobs will play it up.

also, the new apple superstores might be detailed.

okay, i'm thru now, i think....

ftaok
Jun 12, 2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by jamesbhai
...to upgrade them doesn't make sense with the capital invested in sahara (they could keep those around, but for how long if g4s are already in the 14" ibooks? talk about cluttered!). ...What capital was invested in going from the 750CXe to the 750FX? Was there a motherboard change? I was under the impression that the 750FX was 100% pin compatible with the 750CXe. Is this right?

Sure, IBM has invested capital in making the Sahara chip, but Apple hasn't always shown much regards to their suppliers/partners.

iwantanewmac
Jun 12, 2002, 01:41 PM
I say they take the ibook up to 1 GHZ or more forst and then move on to a new processor.

billiam0878
Jun 12, 2002, 01:45 PM
Isn't it possible that this "minor revision" is not something as major as a G4 but something as minor as adding BlueTooth to the existing models?

Bill

GabrielX
Jun 12, 2002, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac


Not to start a fight, but the new G3 iBooks are very snappy. They handle X well, and can run QE. They also are perfect for students and consumers. Not everyone needs to alter 25 meg photoshop files. I think the G3 in the iBook will not die until the uber G4 or G5 is out. It just doesn't make sense to do so.

Heck the pre-upgrade G3 iBooks are snappy. :) I used it through about half of law school, with no regrets and was able to do everything I wanted fast enough. It wasn't as fast as I wanted, but they haven't made a computer that can do what I want as fast as I want.

As for a new casing on a G4 iBook...I don't know if Apple will do that. If they will, it will be a minor thing, but the iBooks are a wonderful formfactor, with a very high indestructability factor.

Gabriel

psxndc
Jun 12, 2002, 02:17 PM
:confused: I put very little stock in g4 iBooks right now.

As someone who just dumped $1500+ on a brand new 700MHz iBook, I will go into the Apple Store (gotta support them if I want them to stick around) and start flipping tables over. The people at the Apple Store aren't responsible, but c'mon. Apple's not going to move the iBook to a whole new processor a month after updating it, create a middle ground between the iBook and PowerBook markets, and alienate a boatload of people that just switched to Macs, the center of their new ad campaign.

Quoting an SNL skit parodying the O'Reilly Factor:

"Sorry senator, not buying it. I'm just not buying it. "

psxndc

PS The new iBook runs fantastically, especially after 10.1.5 :D

drastik
Jun 12, 2002, 02:21 PM
I don't know if this really means anything, but Motorola just announced that they will meet or exceed estimates for this quarter and the rest of the year.

What interests me is that Moto says that all of its divisions are growing and doing well, which is a shift fro the previous five quarters.

Might just mean people are upgrading their cell phones. Also might mean that apple has some big orders in.:p

kdog
Jun 12, 2002, 02:29 PM
It's been demonstrated that one can overclock the new ibook to 900mhz or so through software (see xlr8yourmac). Since a large portion of the iBook target audience is not likely to be aware of this, why not just come out with a 900mhz or 1ghz G3 iBook (through a simple software manipulation a better battery and/or cooling system? That would be the cheapest (and sneakiest) way for Apple to come out with an SE iBook which appears to bridge the iBook and the TiBook...

Whaddya think?

cjerens
Jun 12, 2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by kdog
It's been demonstrated that one can overclock the new ibook to 900mhz or so through software (see xlr8yourmac). Since a large portion of the iBook target audience is not likely to be aware of this, why not just come out with a 900mhz or 1ghz G3 iBook (through a simple software manipulation a better battery and/or cooling system? That would be the cheapest (and sneakiest) way for Apple to come out with an SE iBook which appears to bridge the iBook and the TiBook...

Whaddya think?

I totally agree with you. That's pretty much what I suggested in a previous post. But, if they'd do that, they'd have to do it for the PB as well.

DakotaGuy
Jun 12, 2002, 04:57 PM
I love my iBook 600. I was a little upset when they upgraded to the 700 and the new video card this summer...thinking to myself, why the heck didn't I wait? I remember the same thing happened when I bought my Blueberry iMac DV, the next month they came out with the Indigo DV+ that had more MHz and a new keyboard and pro mouse, but I just sucked it up and drove on with what I had. I still love my iMac after 2 years, but I am going to sell it and get an eMac this fall. So if Apple does happen to upgrade just know I feel your pain, but forget about it and enjoy your machine, my iBook has a lot of life left in it.

My issue would be if you took an iBook the way it is right now and got rid of the G3, 750fx, and went to a G4 what would happen to battery life? Doesn't the G4 draw more power then the G3 and somewhere I read that the 750fx is a power miser. If IBM has already proved that the processor can be moved up to 1Ghz then there is a lot of life left in this chip. Once QE is implemented in 10.2 and these new iBooks can take advantage of that I think you will be surprised how well the finder works and how nice window resizing and scrolling is on this machine. With that technology I would happen to think any 600MHz to 1Ghz G3 would be a quick consumer machine.

I am all for moving the iBook to the G4...but I would hate to have a 500-600MHz G4 iBook if I could instead have a 1Ghz G3 iBook. For what I use a computer for the 1Ghz would be a lot snappier for day to day tasks. Besides what looks better to consumers???

I know that Alti-Vec is suppose to make the processor like twice as fast from what a lot of people have posted on here, but I don't buy that a 500-600MHz G4 would outperform a 1Ghz G3 in most day to day tasks that people use iBooks for. Anyhow I don't know if we will ever see a 1Ghz iBook anytime soon and I am stuck with my 600 for the next couple of years, but I like it, it works very good and I would have no problem in recommending the new 700Mhz iBook to anyone that wants a good, fast, economical laptop.

numb_brain
Jun 12, 2002, 05:24 PM
I think it is way to soon to release a G4 iBook. And selling both a G3 an G4 ibook would make things messy and complicated. It's already complicated enough with the G3 and G4 iMacs as it is.

One way to keep it clear is to wait until the Tibook is upgraded, then come out with a G4 ibook, and at the same time come out with the e-book with a G3. And of course they would EOL the G3 imac...

Think about it: you would have a low-end (e), middle-end (i) and high-end (power) model in both the desktop and portable range, and things wouldn't look as messy...

Of course, they would wait until the time is right for it (maybe in September?)

numb_brain

Curiousstrngmint
Jun 12, 2002, 06:23 PM
I'm shopping for a laptop for college...I might--MIGHT--be willing to go with a G3 iBook IF the graphics card was beefed up to 32 megs. I can't afford a titanium, really, so if Apple doesn't satisfy me with the iBook (the design of which I actually like better than the titanium), I have to get a PC...ick. So does anybody think the graphics will be improved?

Backtothemac
Jun 12, 2002, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Curiousstrngmint
I'm shopping for a laptop for college...I might--MIGHT--be willing to go with a G3 iBook IF the graphics card was beefed up to 32 megs. I can't afford a titanium, really, so if Apple doesn't satisfy me with the iBook (the design of which I actually like better than the titanium), I have to get a PC...ick. So does anybody think the graphics will be improved?

Question. Why do you need the 32 megs of video ram? The 16 meg Radeon will be fine for anything that you could want to do in college. Macs and PC's don't use memory the same. That is why my iBook with 8 megs of VR can play wolfinstien. Try that on a PC. The iBook 600 or 700 will be fine for you trust me.

Nipsy
Jun 12, 2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by McFreggle

I think they can't keep on changing an existing model and changing and changing... they allready did the 14" screen (which I don't like), and if you ask me, changing the CPU also, would rather ask for a complete redesign...
k.

I would argue that with the MHz disparity growing, and better, cheaper G4 yields, they have to keep changing models.

The only reason not to update when chips become available is not to upset recent purchasers. Bear in mind that most recent purchasers are not watching rumor sites daily (that is the pastime of soon to be purchasers). I for one would be thrilled if Apple bumped every line 133 MHz every 6 weeks. The only people who lose are those who never buy a new machine because an upgrade is jus around the corner.

If it can be made faster, make it faster. The new iBook is new enough that it can step from G3 to G4 without needing a case revision. The same cannot be said of the G3/G4/QS case...

There are a few rumor sites that are proclaiming that MWNY's 'one more thing' will be SJ proclaiming the death of the G3. This means that the old iMac would be gone (eliminating iMac & iMac G4 confusion). I hope so, and I hope it lasts longer than the death of the CRT.

buffsldr
Jun 12, 2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Cappy


If they can bring in a G4 ibook for the same price as a G3 then I say let them. I can't help but think that way too many people are banking on QE being the be all end all of sluggishness on the Macs. I don't think people realize that it will depend on the video card on how much better it *might* be.

It'd be great to be proven wrong since I'm hoping for an ibook before the year is out but Apple has a way of disappointing folks after Jobs gets the hype machine going.

Cappy, I love your signature. You are a man after my own heart. Thank you.

Curiousstrngmint
Jun 12, 2002, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac


Question. Why do you need the 32 megs of video ram? The 16 meg Radeon will be fine for anything that you could want to do in college. Macs and PC's don't use memory the same. That is why my iBook with 8 megs of VR can play wolfinstien. Try that on a PC. The iBook 600 or 700 will be fine for you trust me.


Ah...that's good news, I actually haven't seen it running. But it's not really wolfenstein I'm worried about...it's Doom 3. Have you SEEN the videos?

robguz
Jun 12, 2002, 08:32 PM
I think this could happen, but it could be like one of those typical premature MacWorld announcements and it won't ship until the end of August. They could put in a G4 667 without an L3 cache and it would be 20-30% slower than the new 667Ti with a worse video card, smaller screen, less VRAM, less screen real estate but still be able to call itself a G4. Although that would probably be no faster than the G3 700 with it's bigger L2 for everything except Altivec instructions. It could be $1999 and you'd still get alot more for $500 with the Ti. Or maybe by the time it ships they'd update the Ti again or drop the price so it still sells well.

I doubt the aging slow G4 chips are that much more expensive than the new G3 designs. The new top end AMD athlons and 2.5 Ghz P4s are like $250 each in volume.

Remember that even when the 733 G4 with a 1MB L3 came out, it was maybe 10% faster than the 533 at best. So a 667 with no L3 is hardly going to intrude on the Ti.

Grokgod
Jun 12, 2002, 08:32 PM
Are you saying that there is a PC out there that isnt in a landfill that has 8 megs VR. I havent seen 8 megs VR in a pc in a very very long time.
We talking laptops here?
Ok maybe not that long if were talking laptops.
but a while, yea, a while.

Oh crap. did I just say something stupid.
Oh well, its happened again.

ryan
Jun 12, 2002, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by kdog
It's been demonstrated that one can overclock the new ibook to 900mhz or so through software (see xlr8yourmac). Since a large portion of the iBook target audience is not likely to be aware of this, why not just come out with a 900mhz or 1ghz G3 iBook (through a simple software manipulation a better battery and/or cooling system? That would be the cheapest (and sneakiest) way for Apple to come out with an SE iBook which appears to bridge the iBook and the TiBook...

Whaddya think?
I think it would make sense if Apple bumped the speed on the TiPB to 900MHz+, they're not going to have a "consumer" level machine that exceeds their "pro" level machines by 100MHz or more.

ryan
Jun 12, 2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Sayer
the Product Matrix hasn't been seen for a long time.
I'd love a G4/14" iBook for mobile programming and other work. The G4 would help overall in OS X and the occasional distractions (games/DVD).
As a programmer, when I bought my 600MHz iBook I opted for the 12" model over the 14" model (and the TiPB) because it is so much more portable than the 14" iBook or TiPB. While more processing power and screen real-estate are nice I was willing to sacrifice those things for the smaller form factor and slightly lower weight of the other two machines. If Apple were to only put a G4 in the 14" iBook I would be supremely disappointed and I think a lot of other people who prefer the 12" iBook would as well.

foniks2020
Jun 13, 2002, 03:10 AM
I'd like to see much faster bus speeds and faster hard drives in laptops regardless of their G#. That would be my Xmas present of choice.

An iBook with 266mhz front bus, DDR ram at 266 as well and a 900mhz G3 w/ 32 mb radeon/nvidia would be absolutely freakin' delicious.

tjwett
Jun 13, 2002, 07:06 AM
There will be a G4 in the iBook at MWNY. Here's how it will go. The entire line will be G4 BUT, the iMac and iBook will use the current mobo/processor with the iMac a bit more powerful. While the PowerMac and PowerBook will get the newer G4 and mobo utilizing DDR, L3 cache, etc. They MUST put a G4 in the iBook for it to continue to properly run OS X. It WILL be there.

Catfish
Jun 13, 2002, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Grokgod
Are you saying that there is a PC out there that isnt in a landfill that has 8 megs VR. I havent seen 8 megs VR in a pc in a very very long time.
We talking laptops here?
Ok maybe not that long if were talking laptops.
but a while, yea, a while.

Oh crap. did I just say something stupid.
Oh well, its happened again.

:)

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but when I was laptop shopping about a month ago and was considering an iBook, I almost went with a Vaio because of the low price and Athlon processor. (I run linux on all my PCs) but what pushed me to get the TiBook was that the video chipset in many of those PCs that are comparably priced to the iBook still have the ATI Rage128 8 meg chipset. I had to do some serious research to find that information, they scream "Athlon 4!" and tout the good specs, but try to bury the fact that the video card and RAM is anemic. Kudos to Apple, they are 100% honest and upfront with all their specs, I respect that as a hardware geek and am glad to be a Mac user now.

Backtothemac
Jun 13, 2002, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by tjwett
They MUST put a G4 in the iBook for it to continue to properly run OS X. It WILL be there.

Man, don't know what iBook your planing on, maybe an original clamshell with G3 300 and 32 mb of ram, but the iBook can handle X just fine. Especially x.2, and especially the newest release of the iBooks with the Radeon mobility. Don't believe the propoganda that the iBook with a G3 is dead. The fact is that the G3 iBooks can handle X just fine.

mcrain
Jun 13, 2002, 09:00 AM
The only thing I may be able to add to this thread is that I saw a story about IBM's new imbedded chip design that allows them to power on or off specific areas of a chip rather than having to power the whole chip all the time. They said that the technology had not yet been applied to IBM's processor for computers yet, but that it could be a major breakthrough allowing them to build chips that use far less power and deliver far more performance with the same or better battery life.

If IBM is on the brink of developing a chip that has kick butt battery life, Apple would have to think twice about moving all of their computers to the Moto chips.

I mean, wouldn't Apple have to keep throwing IBM a few bones to keep them interested in their "relationship" with our mothership?

Backtothemac
Jun 13, 2002, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by Grokgod
Are you saying that there is a PC out there that isnt in a landfill that has 8 megs VR. I havent seen 8 megs VR in a pc in a very very long time.
We talking laptops here?
Ok maybe not that long if were talking laptops.
but a while, yea, a while.

Oh crap. did I just say something stupid.
Oh well, its happened again.

Actually as early as last year, entry level Compaqs came with 8 meg TNT 2 AGP cards in them. Plus you have to remember that all of the entry level Dells, and Gateways have 4 megs integrated graphics, and Celeron procs. Man, that has got to out perform my iMac G3 600 with a 16 MB ATI Rage pro.

tounge so firmly in cheek that cheek is ripping from the pressure

Edge100
Jun 13, 2002, 09:48 AM
According to www.dell.com (the LAST time you will see me posting that URL!):

Dell Inspiron 2600 (entry-level notebook)

Celeron 1.2 GHz
14.1 XGA
256 MB SDRAM
Floppy
XP
10/100 Ethernet
56k modem
8x combo drive

$1627

This thing uses 32MB of RAM for video, but its SHARED system RAM. What kind of a joke is that? For $1799, I can get an iBook with 16MB dedicated VRAM on a much better video card. For $1499, I can get the 12.1" with the same specs, and not lose any resolution.

Oh yeah, one more thing:

Dell Inspiron: 7.6 pounds
IBook: 5.9 pounds (14"), 4.9 pounds (12.1")

C'mon, dont tell me the iBook is underpowered! It is a wonderful machine. My original iceBook (500/DVD) can run rings around this Dell! It runs OS X wonderfully. The 700MHz iBooks are much faster still!

I agree, Apple may be lagging in the 'pro' lineup with somewhat underpowered machines (at least in the eyes of the general public...actually utility notwithstanding!). But the iMac and (especially) the iBook will stack up against anything you can
throw at them from the PC world. Not to mention that you get to use OS X, which, for me, is the best part.

Backtothemac
Jun 13, 2002, 10:50 AM
Edge, I have to give you a hell yea on that post. I actually think that is one of the best 'newbie' posts that I have seen in a long time. I actually think that Alpha will agree. Great to have you on board, and look forward to talking to you in the future.

GPTurismo
Jun 13, 2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Catfish


:)

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but when I was laptop shopping about a month ago and was considering an iBook, I almost went with a Vaio because of the low price and Athlon processor. (I run linux on all my PCs) but what pushed me to get the TiBook was that the video chipset in many of those PCs that are comparably priced to the iBook still have the ATI Rage128 8 meg chipset. I had to do some serious research to find that information, they scream "Athlon 4!" and tout the good specs, but try to bury the fact that the video card and RAM is anemic. Kudos to Apple, they are 100% honest and upfront with all their specs, I respect that as a hardware geek and am glad to be a Mac user now.


Be careful. As much as I love sony (#2 to apple in my book) they have some issues with linux. I don't know why. It's a rare occurance. It might be some of their proprietary components they use. It's weird because they have said that outside the us they are going to start pushing Linux as their main os over the next few years. :\

Maybe their own flavor of Redhat or SuSE?

Or maybe I am just crazy.

LOL.

Edge100
Jun 13, 2002, 11:20 AM
Thanks for the kind words, backtothemac.:D

Backtothemac
Jun 13, 2002, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Edge100
Thanks for the kind words, backtothemac.:D

No problem. It is nice to see someone that has not been around long come in and go up against people with intelligent, relevant posts. Keep up the good work.

Grokgod
Jun 13, 2002, 12:46 PM
Whats all this about slow iBooks.
OSX runs great on the new 700 with Radeon. I tested one at a store.

There isnt going to be a G4 iBook for a long time.

Why?>!
Well, because its the low cost solution and still has a lot of life!
Putting in a G4 would obvously raise the cost.

With so many people griping about the costs of Macs, why would anyone want to raise the prices.

You realize that there is a powerbook Ti out with a G4, right.

ANd with the QE changes coming, the Ibook will be a perfect student viable solution price wise.

Good comparision, EDGE! Thanks

ftaok
Jun 13, 2002, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Grokgod
Whats all this about slow iBooks.
OSX runs great on the new 700 with Radeon. I tested one at a store.

There isnt going to be a G4 iBook for a long time.

Why?>!
Well, because its the low cost solution and still has a lot of life!
Putting in a G4 would obvously raise the cost.

With so many people griping about the costs of Macs, why would anyone want to raise the prices.

You realize that there is a powerbook Ti out with a G4, right.

ANd with the QE changes coming, the Ibook will be a perfect student viable solution price wise.

Good comparision, EDGE! Thanks The reason that I want a G4 in the iBook is for DVD encoding. Eventually, there will be SuperDrives in the iBook. For iDVD to work, you need a G4 (Steve's words, not mine).

iDVD is part of apple 4-part digital hub. When SuperDrives get small (and cheap enough) to put into a notebook, the iBook better be ready with a G4.

Edge100
Jun 13, 2002, 02:51 PM
But, I suspect that the two events (superdrive and G4 in an iBook) will happen around the same time, just like with the iMac.

However, the fact that the TiBook still does not have a SuperDrive tells me that there is not going to be one in the iBook for a while. And you are right, one of the best reasons for upping the iBook to a G4 is to facilitate iDVD.

Therefore, look for the Ti to get one first. The G4 iBook will come later (with a superdrive)

Wry Cooter
Jun 13, 2002, 03:19 PM
>?]Originally posted by ftaok [/i]
The reason that I want a G4 in the iBook is for DVD encoding. Eventually, there will be SuperDrives in the iBook. For iDVD to work, you need a G4 (Steve's words, not mine).
[/QUOTE]

You mispelled TiBook.

ftaok
Jun 13, 2002, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Edge100
But, I suspect that the two events (superdrive and G4 in an iBook) will happen around the same time, just like with the iMac.

However, the fact that the TiBook still does not have a SuperDrive tells me that there is not going to be one in the iBook for a while. And you are right, one of the best reasons for upping the iBook to a G4 is to facilitate iDVD.

Therefore, look for the Ti to get one first. The G4 iBook will come later (with a superdrive) Therein lies the rub. Physically, the iBook would be able to accomodate a SuperDrive before the TiBook. Being that the iBook is a tray loader.

But the cost of the SuperDrive will have to play a part in the decision of whether the iBook gets the SuperDrive sooner or later.

Here's a scenario. Does Apple let others get the jump with a DVD burner in a laptop? Or will they stick one in the iBook before the TiBook so that they can say that they have the 1st notebook with a DVD burner? They did it with the Combo drive, maybe they'll do it with the SuperDrive.

In the end, it's hard to say. But I do agree that the iBook will get the G4 when they get the SuperDrive.

Eliot
Jun 13, 2002, 05:56 PM
How much of a redesign would it take to get SuperDrive into a
new form TiBook ?


__________________

Spending a year dead for tax reasons

britboy
Jun 13, 2002, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Eliot
How much of a redesign would it take to get SuperDrive into a
new form TiBook ?



The current superdrive (the dvr-104) is 1 11/16" tall. The tibook is 1" tall. You figure it out.

The tibooks will not be getting superdrives in their current form. The technology just isn't ready for that, because a) the drives are too big, b) the write times are too slow for mobile computing.

ftaok
Jun 13, 2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by britboy
The current superdrive (the dvr-104) is 1 11/16" tall. The tibook is 1" tall. You figure it out.

The tibooks will not be getting superdrives in their current form. The technology just isn't ready for that, because a) the drives are too big, b) the write times are too slow for mobile computing. I disagree with your point "b". Just because a computer is mobile, doesn't mean it has to be. I have a Combo drive in my iBook and it's @$$ slow. Doesn't mean that I don't burn with it.

Besides, it's usually a good idea to keep the computer still when you're burning a disc.

The TiBooks' will be getting a SuperDrive (or DVD+RW - depends on which standard wins) when it fits. Whether that means the drive gets smaller or the PB gets thicker, only Apple knows.

Backtothemac
Jun 13, 2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by ftaok
I disagree with your point "b". Just because a computer is mobile, doesn't mean it has to be. I have a Combo drive in my iBook and it's @$$ slow. Doesn't mean that I don't burn with it.

Besides, it's usually a good idea to keep the computer still when you're burning a disc.

The TiBooks' will be getting a SuperDrive (or DVD+RW - depends on which standard wins) when it fits. Whether that means the drive gets smaller or the PB gets thicker, only Apple knows.

Well, my iBook burns at 8X so I can live with that. The Ti will not get thicker, that is not the way of tech. It will get a SuperDrive one day, but not till it can fit. The iBook, will not get a SuperDrive for at least a year.

britboy
Jun 13, 2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by ftaok
I disagree with your point "b". Just because a computer is mobile, doesn't mean it has to be. I have a Combo drive in my iBook and it's @$$ slow. Doesn't mean that I don't burn with it.

Besides, it's usually a good idea to keep the computer still when you're burning a disc.

The TiBooks' will be getting a SuperDrive (or DVD+RW - depends on which standard wins) when it fits. Whether that means the drive gets smaller or the PB gets thicker, only Apple knows.

Just because a computer is sitting still, doesn't mean you'll have a power-socket. You could be on a train, in a car..... if the battery only lasts about 3 hours, and burning a dvd the same (for iDVD for example), then it's not really practical. Until dvd burners get faster, or batteries last longer, we're not going to get them in portable computers.

Also, the powerbook range will most likely have moved on from the ti design by the time the technology arrives, so i stand by my statement that the tibooks will not be getting superdrives.

Eliot
Jun 13, 2002, 07:59 PM
Britboy,
As one Brit to another, thanks for the (few) kind words. Not a process engineer, never will be.
Always helpful to get such erudite advice when planning purchasing..............................

____________________

4th July..........Bring it on....................
Starting to like the sound of it myself

tjwett
Jun 13, 2002, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac


Man, don't know what iBook your planing on, maybe an original clamshell with G3 300 and 32 mb of ram, but the iBook can handle X just fine. Especially x.2, and especially the newest release of the iBooks with the Radeon mobility. Don't believe the propoganda that the iBook with a G3 is dead. The fact is that the G3 iBooks can handle X just fine.

All my classmates had iBook 600s(i was smart enough to upgrade to the Ti). They ALL ran like crap. Especially with photoshop, video, etc. Just because it can run it doesn't mean it's good. My parents old 120mhz Pentium2 could run Quake 2. That didn't make it fun. OSX is optimised for the G4 velocity engine. What good is a multithreading OS if you can't have more than one thing running at a time. People need to run other apps besides the desktop, which takes 128mb RAM anyway. The iBook is cute but very underpowered for OSX. Hell, my Ti 550 is too. I think they all are except the duals.

mberrier
Jun 13, 2002, 10:09 PM
I too am considering a laptop for college use.

At the moment, I have a 350 MHz blue and white G3 and a 1.9 GHz Pentium 4 Dell. My Dell is coming with me when I move into my dorm, and therein lies the problem: I would like very much to get a Mac laptop, but I have to be darn sure that whatever work I do on either system will be readable (to some degree) on the other. Networking capability would be nice, too.

You might not guess from my G3's specs that I'm used to being more of a "power user", but I am (whenever financially possible). Top-of-the-line G4 TiBooks are obviously a great temptation, but it's difficult for me to justify shelling out that kind of cash for a college laptop. On the other hand, I don't know that a low-end 12" iBook could satisfy me.

I would not be making a purchase until fall or later, but any suggestions would be welcome.

Durandal7
Jun 13, 2002, 10:47 PM
I'm not expecting one at MWNY.

Cappy
Jun 13, 2002, 10:47 PM
I think what most people are not even considering that will make a huge difference depending on what you do and with future versions of the Mac OS is the amount of ram the ibook max's out at. 640MB pretty much turns the ibook into a disposable computer for many folks much earlier than they would like. I actually consider that to be the biggest issue with the ibook. When they deliver a G4 or higher performing G3 based system, I hope this gets addressed.

Besides more memory makes things easier on battery life since you don't need to hit the swap file as much.

RowdyFROG
Jun 14, 2002, 01:13 AM
Well, I'm still here waiting for my iBook 700 order to come in but I doubt that I'll be disappointed even if they do upgrade somehow at MWNY. I don't think G4 is too close yet and MWNY will be all about powermacs and jaguar developments.

The fact is, I need it now (the iBook) for writing a thesis, it does more than I need so will serve me well for a few years (I hope), and I just can't wait any longer to upgrade the G3 powerbook 233 (still running 8.1) that I got second hand 3 years ago. I'm sure OSX, even on a G3 will be a revelation over that baby. It served me well but I never quite managed to iron out the system extension conflicts on it properly either.

If I kept waiting and waiting for the next new revision, I'd never get one. I might bea bit annoyed if the price drops significantly, but the ed discount made it a pretty good buy anyway. We all have to choose our time, my time was now. I am happy with my decision and stand by it.

Now, pass me a Tasmanian beer.

mmmdreg
Jun 14, 2002, 06:27 AM
I can't see the iBook getting updated this early again...especially since everything will be G4 then (except classic of course)...they could if the PowerBooks and PowerMacs get completely better G4's but thats not likely in the case of the PowerBooks just yet...I think that MWSF03 will be the the day/s when everything goes G4+ and by then, the iMac classic will have died..

ftaok
Jun 14, 2002, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by britboy


Just because a computer is sitting still, doesn't mean you'll have a power-socket. You could be on a train, in a car..... if the battery only lasts about 3 hours, and burning a dvd the same (for iDVD for example), then it's not really practical. Until dvd burners get faster, or batteries last longer, we're not going to get them in portable computers.

Also, the powerbook range will most likely have moved on from the ti design by the time the technology arrives, so i stand by my statement that the tibooks will not be getting superdrives. Britboy,

Honestly, how often do you think that someone will be burning a DVD on a train? Once, maybe twice? You have to remember that a lot of people can only afford one computer (like me). And since I bought my first laptop, I'll never go back to a desktop. I would like the capability of burning DVDs on a laptop.

Besides, Apple kinda markets the TiBook as a desktop replacement (or if they don't, they should). Within the next year or so, DVD burners will be small enough to fit inside laptops. Apple better be ready.

britboy
Jun 14, 2002, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by ftaok

Honestly, how often do you think that someone will be burning a DVD on a train? Once, maybe twice? You have to remember that a lot of people can only afford one computer (like me). And since I bought my first laptop, I'll never go back to a desktop. I would like the capability of burning DVDs on a laptop.

Besides, Apple kinda markets the TiBook as a desktop replacement (or if they don't, they should). Within the next year or so, DVD burners will be small enough to fit inside laptops. Apple better be ready.


That's not the point. I doubt you would see many people trying to burn dvd's in a train. What i was saying is that there isn't much point in incorporating features into a portable machine, if they cannot be used. A computer should stay true to itself, not try to hash together a half-baked concept. I agree, within a year we will leaps in the technology, and it may well be possible to put a dvd burner into a laptop. At the moment though, it's just not possible, nor is it the right thing to do.

If you want a dvd burner, get an external one. If you're not moving the computer around anyway, then what would it matter whether it's internal or external.

ftaok
Jun 14, 2002, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by britboy
That's not the point. I doubt you would see many people trying to burn dvd's in a train. What i was saying is that there isn't much point in incorporating features into a portable machine, if they cannot be used. A computer should stay true to itself, not try to hash together a half-baked concept. I agree, within a year we will leaps in the technology, and it may well be possible to put a dvd burner into a laptop. At the moment though, it's just not possible, nor is it the right thing to do.

If you want a dvd burner, get an external one. If you're not moving the computer around anyway, then what would it matter whether it's internal or external. Britboy,

I hear what you're saying, but the point is that I want all of the functionality of a desktop in the form factor of a laptop. Eventually, this means DVD burners. While the battery life issue makes it less likely now, in the future, you'll see better battery technology (or lower power burners) that will make it possible.

As to having an external burner, I'm not playing that game. I want all of my drives to be inside my laptop. I don't want to have to carry around an external burner (just more weight) where ever I go. What will end up happening is that I'll just leave it at home.

Anyways, you can rest assured that there will be DVD burners in notebooks pretty soon.

britboy
Jun 14, 2002, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by ftaok
Britboy,

I hear what you're saying, but the point is that I want all of the functionality of a desktop in the form factor of a laptop. Eventually, this means DVD burners. While the battery life issue makes it less likely now, in the future, you'll see better battery technology (or lower power burners) that will make it possible.

Anyways, you can rest assured that there will be DVD burners in notebooks pretty soon.

There we agree :)

It will no doubt be interesting and exciting to see what develpments emerge in the next year. I'm not expecting dvd burners before this time next year, but that's just my guess ;)

avkills
Jun 14, 2002, 10:37 AM
I really do not see this happening. Several people have incorrectly stated what the Altivec (Velocity Engine) is and what it is used for. The Altivec instruction set is designed to do many of the same operations on a large group of data. Things that CAN, but don't have to, take advantage of this are Audio/Video encoding, Image manipulation and video effects, etc...

Even though many Apps (like Photoshop, Final Cut Pro and iTunes) are written to take advantage of this totally separate vector processing unit (Altivec), they do not have to. They still work without it, although not as fast. Apple may have forced iDVD to check for a G4 and therefore, does not work on a G3, even though it should. Media Cleaner Pro does MPEG encoding on a G3, so I know it is possible...way slower, but possible.

Games do not use Altivec. A G4 processor IS a G3 with the Altivec unit attached to it. With that said, a G3 at 700Mhz WILL be faster than a G4 667Mhz on anything that does not use the vector processor, ie everything except what I mentioned in my first paragraph. The only reason the 667 TiBook beats the 700 iBook is because of the slightly faster bus, faster hard drive and bigger cache.

With all that said, I did buy a 700 iBook 12.1" last week and even with the stock 128megs of RAM, it runs OS X quite good. I imagine that once I max the RAM out, it is going to eat my tower for lunch. BTW my tower is a tricked out B&W (400 G4, 1GB RAM, Ultra160 SCSI, PCI Radeon 32Mb DDR, etc...) Once 10.2 comes out, these little iBooks are going to kick some butt.

The iBook will not get a G4 until they slap a DVD burner in it. BTW, you already can get a DVD burner in a Dell. However, those Dells are tanks compared to a TiBook. Apple would be smart and wait for the new blue laser disc technology, instead of wasting time figuring out how to shove a DVD-R burner in a TiBook or an iBook.

-mark

ftaok
Jun 14, 2002, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by avkills
I really do not see this happening. Several people have incorrectly stated what the Altivec (Velocity Engine) is and what it is used for. The Altivec instruction set is designed to do many of the same operations on a large group of data. Things that CAN, but don't have to, take advantage of this are Audio/Video encoding, Image manipulation and video effects, etc...

Even though many Apps (like Photoshop, Final Cut Pro and iTunes) are written to take advantage of this totally separate vector processing unit (Altivec), they do not have to. They still work without it, although not as fast. Apple may have forced iDVD to check for a G4 and therefore, does not work on a G3, even though it should. Media Cleaner Pro does MPEG encoding on a G3, so I know it is possible...way slower, but possible.along with those apps, iPhoto will take advantage of Altivec. And whether or not Apple intentionally sets iDVD to check for a G4 is irrelevant. iDVD does not work with a G3 and that's that. (although Formac has DVD software that encodes with a G3)

Games do not use Altivec. A G4 processor IS a G3 with the Altivec unit attached to it. With that said, a G3 at 700Mhz WILL be faster than a G4 667Mhz on anything that does not use the vector processor, ie everything except what I mentioned in my first paragraph. The only reason the 667 TiBook beats the 700 iBook is because of the slightly faster bus, faster hard drive and bigger cache.Yeah, games don't benefit from Altivec, but if I wanted a game machine, I'd have bought a PS2 (or a PC). As for the G4 being a G3 with Altivec, that may have been true with the early G4s, but with the divergence of the G3 and G4, they are quite different now.

The iBook will not get a G4 until they slap a DVD burner in it. BTW, you already can get a DVD burner in a Dell. However, those Dells are tanks compared to a TiBook. Apple would be smart and wait for the new blue laser disc technology, instead of wasting time figuring out how to shove a DVD-R burner in a TiBook or an iBook.

-mark I totally agree that the iBook won't get a G4 until they slap in a SuperDrive. But if it takes more than a year to get a SuperDrive to fit into an iBook (let alone TiBook), they'll probably put in a G4 anyway.

Also, I looked at the Dell website to see if you could get a DVD burner in a laptop, but it wouldn't let me configure it. Where did you see the Dell with a DVD burner?

avkills
Jun 14, 2002, 11:00 AM
It was all second hand talk by one of my Co-workers. I will check it out. I know his laptop has two optical drives in it. A DVD Player/CD combo and a CD-RW burner. It's kinda cool, but the thing is huge!

Heh! I just checked it out and could not find one either. I will call him on it the next time I see him. Sorry for the mis-information.

On another DVD related thing. I just read an article in DV mag which stated that DVD-RW and DVD+RW have a much lower compatibility rate than with DVD-R (What Apple uses). Ha ha.

-mark

Rajj
Jun 14, 2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by avkills
It was all second hand talk by one of my Co-workers. I will check it out. I know his laptop has two optical drives in it. A DVD Player/CD combo and a CD-RW burner. It's kinda cool, but the thing is huge!

Heh! I just checked it out and could not find one either. I will call him on it the next time I see him. Sorry for the mis-information.

On another DVD related thing. I just read an article in DV mag which stated that DVD-RW and DVD+RW have a much lower compatibility rate than with DVD-R (What Apple uses). Ha ha.

-mark

And your point is?..........:mad:

avkills
Jun 14, 2002, 02:36 PM
that the format the other guys are putting in their boxes are not as compatible as what Apple is using. DVD-R for General has the best player compatibility out of the other consumer DVD burning formats, ie DVD-RW & DVD+RW. That was my point.

DVD-R for Authoring had the best player compatibility.

-mark

G5orbust
Jun 15, 2002, 11:29 AM
What would be the point of having a G4 iBook when we've already got the G4 powerbook? Would anyone buy a $3000 G4 ibook over a $3000 powerbook??? (think graphics and screen size, among other, smaller details)
I didint think so.:D

King Cobra
Jun 15, 2002, 11:38 AM
G5orbust, I think you missed the point. Take a look at the iMac G4. That doesn't cost $3000. In fact, it's not even $2000 and it's upgraded to a G4. I would expect that if the iBook is upgraded to a G4 we MIGHT still see the large 14 inch screen, and we MIGHT still see the 100MHz bus. We will probably keep the Combo Drive and the MHz speed should be the same, +/- 100MHz for around the same cost. [Oh, dear Pete, not minus! :eek:]

But, again, this is all speculation for a product that may not come out at MacWorld New York, maybe later.

G5orbust
Jun 15, 2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra
G5orbust, I think you missed the point. Take a look at the iMac G4. That doesn't cost $3000. In fact, it's not even $2000 and it's upgraded to a G4. I would expect that if the iBook is upgraded to a G4 we MIGHT still see the large 14 inch screen, and we MIGHT still see the 100MHz bus. We will probably keep the Combo Drive and the MHz speed should be the same, +/- 100MHz for around the same cost. [Oh, dear Pete, not minus! :eek:]

But, again, this is all speculation for a product that may not come out at MacWorld New York, maybe later.

Good Point, but would you still buy a G4 ibook over a G4 powerbook??

britboy
Jun 15, 2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by G5orbust


Good Point, but would you still buy a G4 ibook over a G4 powerbook??


Obviously some people would. Back when the G3 was top-of-the-line, apple sold a G3 powerbook, running at 333 and 400MHz, and an iBook with a G3 running at 300MHz. Neither suffered overly as a result of the other.

King Cobra
Jun 15, 2002, 12:42 PM
Responding to G5orbust, since I do not want to quote:

Actually, I am focused on a cheap Titanium Powerbook matching the clock speeds, bus speed and, if possible, Hard Drive space as my cube. That way I like both computers as much. Plus, I get to freak out peecee users at class, when they see I brought a supercomputer to English! :D

But if I wasn't in that senario, I would buy an iBook G4. But, don't forget, if Apple plans to keep the Powerbook alive, there has to be a gap between the iBook, a cheap and affordable notebook with some features, and a top dog Powerbook, with high speeds, a faster bus speed and more expandability. That is why I would suggest that the iBook stay at a 700MHz G4 (do not tell me 700MHz is slow for a G4, I live happily with 0.5GHz), while the Powerbook is upgraded significantly to 1000MHz, if possible. I do not see a G5 in the Powerbook for a long time, however.

Cappy
Jun 15, 2002, 04:40 PM
If Apple could engineer a dual cpu config for the Tibook crowd, I think we'd see the ibook go G4. That would likely lower costs on the G4 quite a bit since they could buy in greater bulk. That would likely cause the TiBook to go up in price or they could instead come out with a larger version that has the dual cpu with dvd burner option. If they go with a new slightly thicker form factor, they could probably pull this off for a high end laptop.

People can argue battery life all day long but honestly a very small percentage really use the batteries in laptops. If they can get 2-3 hours of realistic life out of a laptop battery then they'll be competitive with the Intel/AMD laptops. Most folks plug them in when they use them since many times they are small form factor portable desktop replacements.

TeraRWM
Jun 15, 2002, 05:47 PM
In my best opinion the processor in the iBooks aren't the biggest concern. With Apple somewhat slow in terms of graphics power (crossing my fingers they do something about that) how long could an 16Mb video card really last? And if they are going to have higher system buses in their desktop machines they should at least bump the speed in the iBooks to 133. G4 processors across the line might make some of us happier, but I know I would prefer that Apple kept their Powerbook line and their cheaper iBook line at least a processor apart. But of course if they were to introduce the G5 and put it in the Powerbook line I would be love to see the G4 in the iBooks.

gregorypierce
Jun 15, 2002, 07:25 PM
In order for Apple to successfully market a G4 iBook they will have to take a speed that is the same or faster than their current iBook speeds (which would be >= 700) considering that Apple just upgraded the TiBooks to 800 at the highend *last month*, shipping out a 667 iBook or faster would simply cut deeply into sales for TiBooks.

DavPeanut
Jun 16, 2002, 07:48 PM
iBook:
14"
600 Mhz G4
100 Mhz bus
256 MB RAM
30 GB
$1200

14"
700 Mhz G4
100 Mhz bus
256 MB RAM
40 GB
$1500

14"
867 Mhz G4
133 Mhz bus
512 MB RAM
40 GB
$1850

Rajj
Jun 17, 2002, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by DavPeanut
iBook:
14"
600 Mhz G4
100 Mhz bus
256 MB RAM
30 GB
$1200

14"
700 Mhz G4
100 Mhz bus
256 MB RAM
40 GB
$1500

14"
867 Mhz G4
133 Mhz bus
512 MB RAM
40 GB
$1850


Keep dreaming!!! And you got a what on your SAT's?

edesignuk
Jun 17, 2002, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by DavPeanut
iBook:
14"
867 Mhz G4
133 Mhz bus
512 MB RAM
40 GB
$1850
Are you nuts! You'll be lucky! :D
I can't see a 867Mhz G4 in an iBook early next year, the iBooks are well behind in terms of their technology to keep prices low, the TiBook has only recently gone to a 800Mhz G4 and you will pay over $2,500 for that, I think the TiBook would have to be at 1.2Ghz G4/G5 before the iBook would go to 867Mhz G4.
...just my opinion...

billiam0878
Jun 17, 2002, 03:15 PM
I don't think we'll se a G4 iBook.

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0206/17.ibook.php (http://)

Bill

G5orbust
Jun 17, 2002, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by britboy
"The current superdrive (the dvr-104) is 1 11/16" tall. The tibook is 1" tall. You figure it out."



Hey remember the times when a hard drive was too big, and now we've got hard drives small enough to fit into a laptop PC card slot. All we have to do is wait and it will come.

edesignuk
Jun 17, 2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by G5orbust

Hey remember the times when a hard drive was too big, and now we've got hard drives small enough to fit into a laptop PC card slot. All we have to do is wait and it will come.
For sure! We will see it at sometime, but not not for a while yet :( I guess we'll just have to see how quickly DVD-R drive technology advances, lets hope it quick! :D

DannyZR2
Jun 18, 2002, 03:10 AM
Yeah.. sorry to all of you but no G4 iBooks for a while.. and the guy that's looking for an 867G4 in an iBook??? you are smoking the wrong crack!

http://www.whythemacissogreat.com/globalmacnews/specials/20020617-ibookg4.shtml

"Global Mac News - Apple Says No G4 iBooks Anytime Soon.

Apple says that the iBook is a bestseller as it is. Like the Brits would say, "don't change a winning team" (the equivalent for those across the pond is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"), Apple says it'll leave the iBook untouched for now.

MacCentral quotes Apple's Dave Russell as saing "don't expect any major changes anytime soon". A big reason for staying with the G3 is that it doesn't draw much power, and won't heat up easily. Plus, contrary to yours sincerely's experiences, OS X is supposed to run "just fine".

Apple is basing the iBook on consumer and educational experiences and desires - not wild yells for a G4 upgrade and a mega-big monitor."

That last part is directed to all of you I believe.. "not wild yells for a G4 upgrade etc.."
Sorry to stop that train in its tracks!

Grokgod
Jun 18, 2002, 11:10 AM
I can only pray that you derailed this train!

Its incredible foolish for anyone to think that the iBook would be getting a G4 anything , anytime soon!

As stated by people in the know, its the educational low end consumer laptop, geared for student in cost and other manners.

The G3 works and keeps cost and heat down!

Why was this thread started yet again?

People crying for the G4 iBook need a Ti, so go get one or be happy with the iBook.

You think Apple is going to make a new laptop for the whim of every individual.
They have covered to spectrum here from consumer to pro as best they can!

If you have needs that are not spoken to here, then wait till the G whatever comes out and moves the whole line. its that simple.,

avkills
Jun 18, 2002, 03:05 PM
Hell, I wanted a PowerBook, because I am more of a power user, but I just could not justify the cost.

Why pay $1000 more for a slightly faster bus, a bit more memory, and slightly better GPU and Altivec? My feelings would be different if the TiBook had DDR RAM, 266Mhz bus, etc etc.

I decided on the 700Mhz 12.1" iBook over the 667 TiBook, because of its smaller size and it feels a lot more sturdy than the TiBook. And I did not have the $$$ for the TiBook.

Who cares about real time effects on the G4 and FCP 3 anyway, you still have to render once you decide to go back to tape, so why bother. Once I get a fast and speedy external firewire drive, I will be testing this next to my souped up B&W (400 G4, 1GB Ram, 2 18gb Ultra160 10,000RPM SCSI, PCI Radeon, PCI OEM RAGE). I have a feeling that my iBook is going to wipe the floor of my B&W. Just my gut feeling. So far it is faster at everything.

-mark

Wry Cooter
Jun 18, 2002, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by avkills

Why pay $1000 more for a slightly faster bus, a bit more memory, and slightly better GPU and Altivec?


Because you have either a genuine need, or a psychological need.



Who cares about real time effects on the G4 and FCP 3 anyway, you still have to render once you decide to go back to tape, so why bother.



Why even show a preview of your video at all... ho hum... it ain't ready til its ready?

...Folks like the real time effects during the editing process, so they can make a decision whether they want to commit to that effect or not in the final product. And tweak the effect and resulting editing BEFORE burning one.

Grokgod
Jun 18, 2002, 06:34 PM
well,the G4 chips AV works on the os also not just the appz you mentioned!

If its all just SLIGHTLY faster then you can see that all the niches are being filled and that there is no need for a G4 in an iBook.

zhromat
Jun 19, 2002, 12:09 AM
As a PC user sitting on the fence waiting for OS X 10.2 to release before deciding whether continue with a PC laptop running an OS I have used for years or an iBook running 10.2, I would really like to see an iBook Special Edition or a TiBook Lite with the following specs:

*12" display (I like small laptops. Fujitsu P series looks great on the PC side)
*1 ghz G3 (IBM makes it, lets have it. I am curious to see how it performs compared to the current gen TiBook G4s)
*200 mhz front-side bus (the Sahara supports it)
*Support for up to 1 GB DDR RAM (You can never have enough RAM -- at least that is true in the PC universe)
*40+ GB Hard drives running at 5400 RPM (Great performance enhancer)
*ATI 7500 with 32 MB of RAM user upgradeable to 64 (Compaq is offering this with the 2800 series laptops)
*Also, let's not cripple the GPU. I have no use for mirroring but if it's suppored why not keep it there for people that want it.
*USB2 and Gigawire (a little future proofing never hurts)
*SPDIF or other Dolby Digital out (PC laptops have this and they don't have decent software to support it)

I don't think there is anything wrong with the G3. I think the problem is with the the rest of the subsystem. OS X and VirtualPC should literally fly on a machine with these specs.

Oh yeah, no matter what, VirtualPC needs to fly on OS X. Apple needs to work with Connectix to make sure that happens. Switching computers and OSes is an expensive proposition. VirtualPC will allow me and other PC users to gradually upgrade our software to the OS X version as well as keep working with those pesky apps that don't have Mac versions. In fact Apple really needs to look at packaging it with the iBook.

Before anybody gets upset with me for these suggestions, I do ask that you remember I am a PC user and have owned PCs since the 80286 days. I am also very computer literate and I know intellectually the current 700mhz iBook is more than adequate. The problem is, I still think like a PC user. For Apple's current campaign to really work, they need to understand that this how a good number of PC users think and build machines that are overkill.

buffsldr
Jun 19, 2002, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by zhromat
As a PC user sitting on the fence waiting for OS X 10.2 to release before deciding whether continue with a PC laptop running an OS I have used for years or an iBook running 10.2, I would really like to see an iBook Special Edition or a TiBook Lite with the following specs:

*12" display (I like small laptops. Fujitsu P series looks great on the PC side)
*1 ghz G3 (IBM makes it, lets have it. I am curious to see how it performs compared to the current gen TiBook G4s)
*200 mhz front-side bus (the Sahara supports it)
*Support for up to 1 GB DDR RAM (You can never have enough RAM -- at least that is true in the PC universe)
*40+ GB Hard drives running at 5400 RPM (Great performance enhancer)
*ATI 7500 with 32 MB of RAM user upgradeable to 64 (Compaq is offering this with the 2800 series laptops)
*Also, let's not cripple the GPU. I have no use for mirroring but if it's suppored why not keep it there for people that want it.
*USB2 and Gigawire (a little future proofing never hurts)
*SPDIF or other Dolby Digital out (PC laptops have this and they don't have decent software to support it)

I don't think there is anything wrong with the G3. I think the problem is with the the rest of the subsystem. OS X and VirtualPC should literally fly on a machine with these specs.

Oh yeah, no matter what, VirtualPC needs to fly on OS X. Apple needs to work with Connectix to make sure that happens. Switching computers and OSes is an expensive proposition. VirtualPC will allow me and other PC users to gradually upgrade our software to the OS X version as well as keep working with those pesky apps that don't have Mac versions. In fact Apple really needs to look at packaging it with the iBook.

Before anybody gets upset with me for these suggestions, I do ask that you remember I am a PC user and have owned PCs since the 80286 days. I am also very computer literate and I know intellectually the current 700mhz iBook is more than adequate. The problem is, I still think like a PC user. For Apple's current campaign to really work, they need to understand that this how a good number of PC users think and build machines that are overkill.


Well, if Apple's marketing department agrees with you, you may be in luck. Otherwise you might get to play with Windows XP (ouch!)

Welcome to the boards *Mat

avkills
Jun 19, 2002, 03:10 PM
I agree with you that real time effects while editing a project is nice and speeds the process up, but I do not feel like it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

If your concerned about "true" real time, then you're better off going with a AVID or Media100 Hardware/Software combination that actually truly gives real time online effects.

That is how I feel. At work I use an aging Media100 lx, and I guess I've gotten used to rendering effects and "feeling" how long things should be and learning to use markers to sync stuff to music. I guess that comes with experience. So FCP w/o real time effects does not bug that much, just so long as I can play back stuff that has been rendered in real time, that concerns me more.

-mark

kris251069
Jun 22, 2002, 06:48 AM
I want an G6 Ibook running at 2 GHZ :D .
But for the moment I am quite happy with my 600 MHZ G3 machine
:p

jadam
Jun 22, 2002, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by foniks2020
I'd like to see much faster bus speeds and faster hard drives in laptops regardless of their G#. That would be my Xmas present of choice.

An iBook with 266mhz front bus, DDR ram at 266 as well and a 900mhz G3 w/ 32 mb radeon/nvidia would be absolutely freakin' delicious.

about that... i dont know if most of you know this, but the Sahara 750FX is capable of a 200mhz DDR bus. I dunno why apple hasnt started using this, but i think they will, and use a 266mhz DDR bus in the TiBooks!! (edit)nope, it doesnt have Alti-Vec like instructions in the processor(edit)

jadam
Jun 22, 2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by tjwett


All my classmates had iBook 600s(i was smart enough to upgrade to the Ti). They ALL ran like crap. Especially with photoshop, video, etc. Just because it can run it doesn't mean it's good. My parents old 120mhz Pentium2 could run Quake 2. That didn't make it fun. OSX is optimised for the G4 velocity engine. What good is a multithreading OS if you can't have more than one thing running at a time. People need to run other apps besides the desktop, which takes 128mb RAM anyway. The iBook is cute but very underpowered for OSX. Hell, my Ti 550 is too. I think they all are except the duals.

i dont think u understand the velocity engine and multithreading too well.

The velocity engine is just another name for Altivec. What Altivec is, is a new set of instructions for the G4 processor that allow it to perform Vector math in hardware. The G4's accomplish this by using a coprocessor which is not part of the original processor, its an extension to it, much like a graphics card is an extension to a CPU. What the Vector coprocessor allows Mac's to do is move around (you guessed it) Vectors via hardware. A vector basically is say... (1,3,0), thats a vector. Now you move this vector. But what if you wanted to move many different vectors around via the same amount. What the Vector Co processor allows you to do, is to perform the same operation to every single vector, without having to do it one at a time. This allows you to move around more pixels, since lots of pixels can be moved at the same time, instead of individually, and this helps out a lot in ... you guessed it, photoshop filters and anything that moves around large numbers of pixels.

Now multithreading... DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT IS?? it has nothing to do with the veloctiy engine. Multithreading is a feature of the Operating System. sure, you need a processor capable of it, but ALMOST EVERY processor is. what multithreading lets you do is, ... say you wanted to burn a iDVD while playing Quake III (not like u would) to be continued...

jadam
Jun 22, 2002, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Cappy
I think what most people are not even considering that will make a huge difference depending on what you do and with future versions of the Mac OS is the amount of ram the ibook max's out at. 640MB pretty much turns the ibook into a disposable computer for many folks much earlier than they would like. I actually consider that to be the biggest issue with the ibook. When they deliver a G4 or higher performing G3 based system, I hope this gets addressed.

Besides more memory makes things easier on battery life since you don't need to hit the swap file as much.

but now you have to flow more juice to the RAM right?? has anyone done any battery tests w/ 128mb RAM and 640mb RAM??

Cappy
Jun 22, 2002, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by jadam


but now you have to flow more juice to the RAM right?? has anyone done any battery tests w/ 128mb RAM and 640mb RAM??

There will be some slight diminishing returns but memory is not going to zap your battery life like a hardrive will.

Cappy
Jun 22, 2002, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by jadam


about that... i dont know if most of you know this, but the Sahara 750FX is capable of a 200mhz DDR bus. I dunno why apple hasnt started using this, but i think they will, and use a 266mhz DDR bus in the TiBooks!! AND the 750FX has Alti-Vec LIKE instructions embedded in the processor.

Uh, no it does not have altivec like instructions. For some reason people keep thinking/wishing it did but my sources tell me there are not any such instructions.

If you can provide information to the contrary, please do so. Until then, please do not spread false and misleading information.

jadam
Jun 22, 2002, 10:07 PM
well, back to what i was saying


When you multithread, what the OS will do is seperate the instructions from the iDVD and Quake III into two different threads, each being sent to the processor. Now a problem is if the CPU can properly support this, IE completing two different instructions in one go. But, the G4 and G3 in this area are not different one BIT!

the 700mhz iBooks are more than good enough, and you have to remember, WHY DOES ANYONE USE 32BIT COLOR ON AN iBook or iMac?? seriously, the LCD's can only display 24bits of colors, sure, you can calculate more colors by using 32bits, but your just screwing yourself over. And i really wonder, does an iBook REALLY get only 15fps on Quake III at 1024x768x32?? i would expect AT LEAST 40fps with its hardware setup... maybe BareFeats only had 128mb RAM on it...??? dunno... seriously, the iBooks WILL run Doom III, although only at like 640x480x16... too bad since you cant use the 64bit color calculations :) ohh well, at least it will run, and BTW!!! Doom III isnt coming out till like December of NEXT(thats right, 2003) year. so by that time, you can get a new ibook or iMac for gaming, or better yet, if you want to play Doom III, get an XBox a Mouse, and a Keyboard, and your set.

jadam
Jun 22, 2002, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Cappy


Uh, no it does not have altivec like instructions. For some reason people keep thinking/wishing it did but my sources tell me there are not any such instructions.

If you can provide information to the contrary, please do so. Until then, please do not spread false and misleading information.

DAMN YOU!

yes you are right... I just checked IBM.com/powerpc and checked out a pdf they had on the differences between it and the 750CXe... nope, no AltiVec like instructions... i wish it did though...

Sorry, but i just remembered this from an Article from the Register from like January 2002 when we were all predicting G5's for MWSF 2002.. sorry

tjwett
Jun 22, 2002, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by jadam


i dont think u understand the velocity engine and multithreading too well.

The velocity engine is just another name for Altivec. What Altivec is, is a new set of instructions for the G4 processor that allow it to perform Vector math in hardware. The G4's accomplish this by using a coprocessor which is not part of the original processor, its an extension to it, much like a graphics card is an extension to a CPU. What the Vector coprocessor allows Mac's to do is move around (you guessed it) Vectors via hardware. A vector basically is say... (1,3,0), thats a vector. Now you move this vector. But what if you wanted to move many different vectors around via the same amount. What the Vector Co processor allows you to do, is to perform the same operation to every single vector, without having to do it one at a time. This allows you to move around more pixels, since lots of pixels can be moved at the same time, instead of individually, and this helps out a lot in ... you guessed it, photoshop filters and anything that moves around large numbers of pixels.

Now multithreading... DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT IS?? it has nothing to do with the veloctiy engine. Multithreading is a feature of the Operating System. sure, you need a processor capable of it, but ALMOST EVERY processor is. what multithreading lets you do is, ... say you wanted to burn a iDVD while playing Quake III (not like u would) to be continued...

yeah, i know what AltiVec and multithreading are. i didn't mean to make them sound like they were related. those were 2 seperate statements. all i meant was that OSX is AltiVec enabled, meaning it's optimised for the G4. SEPERATELY, from what i've seen the iBook doesn't do a very good job of multitasking at all. maybe it's ok to run TextEdit and IE at the same time but try working in Photoshop and Flash on an iBook. If it atleast had the G4 of the RevA TiBooks it would handle multithreading AltiVec enabled apps much better. At the very least the OS would be snappier. PC converts are used to fast(maybe too fast) interface. Most converts will look toward the "i" line of machines. If it's sluggish, as it is now, they walk away.

jadam
Jun 23, 2002, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by tjwett


yeah, i know what AltiVec and multithreading are. i didn't mean to make them sound like they were related. those were 2 seperate statements. all i meant was that OSX is AltiVec enabled, meaning it's optimised for the G4. SEPERATELY, from what i've seen the iBook doesn't do a very good job of multitasking at all. maybe it's ok to run TextEdit and IE at the same time but try working in Photoshop and Flash on an iBook. If it atleast had the G4 of the RevA TiBooks it would handle multithreading AltiVec enabled apps much better. At the very least the OS would be snappier. PC converts are used to fast(maybe too fast) interface. Most converts will look toward the "i" line of machines. If it's sluggish, as it is now, they walk away.

BUT its not sluggish!!! ive used the 700's at an apple store, and they are FAST... not VERY VERY FAST, but FAST. not to mention, i havent heard ANY iBook user complain about the performance of the new 700mhz iBooks.

Cappy
Jun 23, 2002, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by jadam


DAMN YOU!

yes you are right... I just checked IBM.com/powerpc and checked out a pdf they had on the differences between it and the 750CXe... nope, no AltiVec like instructions... i wish it did though...

Sorry, but i just remembered this from an Article from the Register from like January 2002 when we were all predicting G5's for MWSF 2002.. sorry

No sweat. I just enjoyed the chance to sound like I knew what I was talking about. ;)

The Register is a popular site but they too cater to the rumormongers. I've found many times for their info to be not necessarily wrong but vague or misleading.

tjwett
Jun 23, 2002, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by jadam


BUT its not sluggish!!! ive used the 700's at an apple store, and they are FAST... not VERY VERY FAST, but FAST. not to mention, i havent heard ANY iBook user complain about the performance of the new 700mhz iBooks.

i haven't seen the new one's in action yet. i'm sure the new graphics card helps alot too. still, with the release of the Xserve Apple already has 3 types of G4s. meaning, the new chips that support DDR, the Apollo chips, and what ever is is in the TiBooks. I don't see why putting a low speed G4 in the iBook is a bad move. The iBook and iMac could use the current G4s and the new PowerMac and PowerBook could use the new ones with DDR support, L3 cache, etc. I think that would put enough of a performance gap between the 2 lines. The only thing i could see is PC people ignoring a 550mhz G4 iBook based on mhz. Plus, it will be slower if they are not running AltiVec enabled apps. hmmm...

applebesmart
Jun 23, 2002, 06:39 PM
It is amazing how everyone that does not have an ibook states that an ibook with a G4 is what they need. I have a friend who has a powerbook with the g4 800mhz chip. The thing is so hot, that it freezes and shuts down. Your not going to believe this, but he puts it in the fridge(sealed in plastic) so he can work on it longer-this is true.
I have one of the new ibook G3 700mhz and i have to say that its the best Mac I have ever had. I run it and every program i have under 9.2, and it has yet to freeze or crash on me yet. I run Logic Audio Gold 4.8 on it and it runs everything fine. And best of all, it doesn't get hot.
Another thing, the 12inch is fine just for about everything you do. I use Photoshop, work on my webpages, and do everything on this bad boy.
The only complaint I have about this bad boy is that it wasn't available sooner.


-----------------------------------------------

Technology has made my life complicated because now i have no excuses.

Cappy
Jun 23, 2002, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by applebesmart
It is amazing how everyone that does not have an ibook states that an ibook with a G4 is what they need. I have a friend who has a powerbook with the g4 800mhz chip. The thing is so hot, that it freezes and shuts down. Your not going to believe this, but he puts it in the fridge(sealed in plastic) so he can work on it longer-this is true.
I have one of the new ibook G3 700mhz and i have to say that its the best Mac I have ever had. I run it and every program i have under 9.2, and it has yet to freeze or crash on me yet. I run Logic Audio Gold 4.8 on it and it runs everything fine. And best of all, it doesn't get hot.
Another thing, the 12inch is fine just for about everything you do. I use Photoshop, work on my webpages, and do everything on this bad boy.
The only complaint I have about this bad boy is that it wasn't available sooner.

There may be some truth to what you say but I think much of people's comments are based off of previous ibooks. Typically a rev in an ibook isn't going to give that big of a performance jump but these latest models seem to be pretty nice. I just wish they would allow for a greater maximum of ram than 640 MB. That's what I find to be the biggest joke. 1 GB should be the lowest allowed in my opinion.

Many of those wanting the G4 is almost for nothing other than for Apple to use as a marketing tool so that it shows they're not stagnating on any single type or speed of cpu. Others would just like to see the line only be distinguished by clockspeed and number of cpu's to simplify things. I've seen true performance as a core reason the least amount of times.

It also sounds like your buddy should be talking to Apple. Anyone placing their laptop in the freezer is a nut in the firstplace. That's not a good thing to do on the electronics in the system so he's doing more harm than good in the long run.

tjwett
Jun 23, 2002, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by applebesmart
It is amazing how everyone that does not have an ibook states that an ibook with a G4 is what they need. I have a friend who has a powerbook with the g4 800mhz chip. The thing is so hot, that it freezes and shuts down. Your not going to believe this, but he puts it in the fridge(sealed in plastic) so he can work on it longer-this is true.
I have one of the new ibook G3 700mhz and i have to say that its the best Mac I have ever had. I run it and every program i have under 9.2, and it has yet to freeze or crash on me yet. I run Logic Audio Gold 4.8 on it and it runs everything fine. And best of all, it doesn't get hot.
Another thing, the 12inch is fine just for about everything you do. I use Photoshop, work on my webpages, and do everything on this bad boy.
The only complaint I have about this bad boy is that it wasn't available sooner.


-----------------------------------------------

Technology has made my life complicated because now i have no excuses.

how is the iBook with Logic? do you get a decent amount of tracks/effects? i use Logic as well. i'm not sure of Logic's AltiVec status but i'd be curious to see how a 700mhz iBook stacks up against my Ti550. i bet your machine is outperforming mine right now. can't wait for OSX. i think we'll see all the major apps with the release of 10.2

Grokgod
Jun 24, 2002, 01:43 AM
What kind of mumbo jumbo is this about a Ti 800 SOooooo hot that it has to be frozen to work.

I have the Ti 800 , yea it get toasty after a few hours but it never freezes up and putting it in the freezer has never entered my mind, hell the freakin fan rarely even comes on.

Have you been smoking dog fur again>?

Applebesmart ~ you should change you handle to something else more appropiate!

When the new QE comes out everyone will see a huge difference in performance tween the Ti and the iBook , then all these posts will be filled with complaints.

jadam
Jun 24, 2002, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by Grokgod
What kind of mumbo jumbo is this about a Ti 800 SOooooo hot that it has to be frozen to work.

I have the Ti 800 , yea it get toasty after a few hours but it never freezes up and putting it in the freezer has never entered my mind, hell the freakin fan rarely even comes on.

Have you been smoking dog fur again>?

Applebesmart ~ you should change you handle to something else more appropiate!

When the new QE comes out everyone will see a huge difference in performance tween the Ti and the iBook , then all these posts will be filled with complaints.

Y? will everyone be complaining?? remember, QE runs on the new ibooks also, and jaguar runs on EVERY computer no matter what the graphics card, which will see an improvement in speed, a very big improvement. Even 333mhz iMacs will run OS X.2 faster. and remember, QE RECCOMENDS 32mb, but it will run beatifully on a 16mb DDR Radeon.

Megaquad
Jun 24, 2002, 08:06 AM
yeah,QE runs on Ati Rage 8 mb too
wow,now i can perfectly resize that Toast window and apps switch instantly lol