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Backtothemac
Mar 9, 2004, 11:36 AM
Hey everyone. Look at this picture and see just how small and narrow minded it makes earthlings look.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040309.html

Those are not stars, they are galaxies.

Click the image to enlarge it and then really get blown away.

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 11:41 AM
This is great stuff, saw it the other day.

The fun thing is that the farther we see, the older it gets....eventually we won't be able to see any farther.... :D

D

wdlove
Mar 9, 2004, 11:44 AM
Hey everyone. Look at this picture and see just how small and narrow minded it makes earthlings look.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040309.html

Those are not stars, they are galaxies.

Click the image to enlarge it and then really get blown away.

That is awesome Backtothemac, thank you for the link. Just shows hoe really insignificant we are.

Backtothemac
Mar 9, 2004, 11:48 AM
That is awesome Backtothemac, thank you for the link. Just shows hoe really insignificant we are.

Well, more than anything, arrogant. How can someone look at that, and think we are alone. And for me only, how could I deny God when looking at that creation.

Unreal how huge it is.

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 11:53 AM
Unreal how huge it is.

Its really impossible for anyone to grasp the size of the universe, especially since that image is such a small slice of the whole.

D

Doctor Q
Mar 9, 2004, 11:54 AM
Makes a good desktop pattern. That's probably what Mother Nature had in mind when she created such marvelous scenery.

I like that there are galaxies at various angles to our line of sight.

Backtothemac
Mar 9, 2004, 11:56 AM
Its really impossible for anyone to grasp the size of the universe, especially since that image is such a small slice of the whole.

D


Oh, it is unreal. It is almost scary to tell you the truth. I don't think that mankind will ever truely understand the scope of it. Mankind as a whole. Yea, there are those of us who will, but in general, people just don't get it.

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 11:59 AM
Yea, there are those of us who will, but in general, people just don't get it.

What anyone looking closely at this will soon grasp is that its too large to manage in terms of understanding and complexity. We're looking at a fine detail in that picture and yet it holds billions of suns with who knows how many planets. Its hard enough to imagine 1,000,000 discreet elements of any object, let alone numbers exponentially larger.

D

Backtothemac
Mar 9, 2004, 12:10 PM
What anyone looking closely at this will soon grasp is that its too large to manage in terms of understanding and complexity. We're looking at a fine detail in that picture and yet it holds billions of suns with who knows how many planets. Its hard enough to imagine 1,000,000 discreet elements of any object, let alone numbers exponentially larger.

D

You are 100% correct. There are thousands of galaxies in that picture. How many suns and planets in a galaxy? Thousands? Millions?

It is like that line from Contact. If only 1% of all galaxies had a solar system that could sustain life, and if only 1% of those had planets that were capable of sustaining life, there would be billions of earths out there.

wdlove
Mar 9, 2004, 12:22 PM
You are 100% correct. There are thousands of galaxies in that picture. How many suns and planets in a galaxy? Thousands? Millions?

It is like that line from Contact. If only 1% of all galaxies had a solar system that could sustain life, and if only 1% of those had planets that were capable of sustaining life, there would be billions of earths out there.

It was all made by God, the great creator. As Jesus said. "In my fathers house there are many mansions." We can only be humble and awesome awe.

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 12:29 PM
It was all made by God, the great creator. As Jesus said. "In my fathers house there are many mansions." We can only be humble and awesome awe.

Using God as an example is somewhat appropriate here - but it doesn't bring the point home. We're talking an almost infinite expanse, limitless - giving the word or idea a definition still doesn't mean we can handle the truth.

And as for God and religion, when life on other worlds is found/contacted, there's going to be a large shake up about everything we hold to be true. If it happens soon, I don't think we'll be able to handle it very well as a society.

The day that faith and reality collide will be amazing, but such enlightenment is far off.

D

agreenster
Mar 9, 2004, 01:14 PM
And as for God and religion, when life on other worlds is found/contacted, there's going to be a large shake up about everything we hold to be true.

I often wonder if that will ever happen. I mean, thats like saying that a protozoa in the Great Barrier reef will someday contact a flea on the back of a dog in Kenya. Its just too big, and too complex for us (or anyone else, really) to make that trek, much less understand what we are seeing when we see it.

And if anything discredits religion, its these type of photographs and concepts. Who are we to think that we have the answer to the universe/mortality/diety, when there is SO little that we really know? Kind of arrogant if you ask me. We cant even agree on our own planet what "God" is, much less the entire universe.

Backtothemac
Mar 9, 2004, 01:14 PM
Using God as an example is somewhat appropriate here - but it doesn't bring the point home. We're talking an almost infinite expanse, limitless - giving the word or idea a definition still doesn't mean we can handle the truth.

And as for God and religion, when life on other worlds is found/contacted, there's going to be a large shake up about everything we hold to be true. If it happens soon, I don't think we'll be able to handle it very well as a society.

The day that faith and reality collide will be amazing, but such enlightenment is far off.

D
The only thing that people need to remember is that in the bible, no-where does it say that God did not create life on other planets. Just because it isn't said, doesn't mean it isn't real ;)

Backtothemac
Mar 9, 2004, 01:18 PM
I often wonder if that will ever happen. I mean, thats like saying that a protozoa in the Great Barrier reef will someday contact a flea on the back of a dog in Kenya. Its just too big, and too complex for us (or anyone else, really) to make that trek, much less understand what we are seeing when we see it.

And if anything discredits religion, its these type of photographs and concepts. Who are we to think that we have the answer to the universe/mortality/diety, when there is SO little that we really know? Kind of arrogant if you ask me. We cant even agree on our own planet what "God" is, much less the entire universe.

Well, we know very little, but how about a world that is say 10 million years into the evolution of the society. They may know more, they may have a super transport system capable of moving someone from point a to point b at the process of thought.

We just don't know.

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 01:22 PM
I often wonder if that will ever happen. I mean, thats like saying that a protozoa in the Great Barrier reef will someday contact a flea on the back of a dog in Kenya. Its just too big, and too complex for us (or anyone else, really) to make that trek, much less understand what we are seeing when we see it.

And if anything discredits religion, its these type of photographs and concepts. Who are we to think that we have the answer to the universe/mortality/diety, when there is SO little that we really know? Kind of arrogant if you ask me. We cant even agree on our own planet what "God" is, much less the entire universe.

We put God in terms we can understand - therefore by definition its very limited since we don't know all that much. And its even more simplistic since most religions evolved thousands of years ago when science and magic were pretty much the same thing.

As for finding other life - they might find us first, which is my belief. Given the age of the universe as we know it (14+ billion years) and imagine that some race of beings has even been around for 1 of those billions of years - they have a far greater understanding of what's really going on than we do. They just might be waiting for us to evolve enough socially to handle and accept that we're not alone in the universe.

I can't thing of one of the major religions that would be able to handle ET's - they just don't fit into our definitions of religious belief regarding God and their souls, etc. Faced with the event of life outside the Earth, it would require the world's religions to *change* their views.

When in human religious history has it been easy to change a religious view with out incident? :D

D

badhorsie777
Mar 9, 2004, 01:27 PM
Well, we know very little, but how about a world that is say 10 million years into the evolution of the society. They may know more, they may have a super transport system capable of moving someone from point a to point b at the process of thought.

We just don't know.

ooooooooohh..... I just love when my love for my God and my love for Scifi get to be expressed in the same instance. :)

But just to chime in, I believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God to THIS people - our planet - humans. The fact that everything around us is much older doesn't fly in the face of Him creating our galaxies, planets, oceans, animals, people, etc. out of nothing. In fact, the Bible can be read as a love letter TO US. Nowhere in it does it suggest that God is incapable of creating more. On the contrary, it appears to be a constant desire of His.

BTW, I stared at that picture for several minutes, and I'd have to agree with the guy who said it's hard to fathom. I started to get a headache trying to comprehend it all.

-badhorsie777

Backtothemac
Mar 9, 2004, 01:27 PM
I can't thing of one of the major religions that would be able to handle ET's - they just don't fit into our definitions of religious belief regarding God and their souls, etc. Faced with the event of life outside the Earth, it would require the world's religions to *change* their views.


D
Wait D, I am confused. As a Christian, I think it would uphold my religion personally. Soul's and life are not confined to earth by the bible. At least I don't think they are.

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 01:32 PM
Wait D, I am confused. As a Christian, I think it would uphold my religion personally. Soul's and life are not confined to earth by the bible. At least I don't think they are.

ah, but in Christianity's version, not your interpretation, its very human centric. Jesus, as the Son of God is a great example. Regardless whether you can deal with it or not, there are far more who won't be able to and will look to religious leaders for answers. Answers that aren't in the Bible. Which requires some adjustments. And what if the Aliens have their own Jesus? Its not a simple thing and something that I'm sure has been debated for as long as we've been looking up at the stars and wondering what's out there.

That's why I've been saying that we're not capable, socially, to handle First Contact yet. It would cause too much strife, anxiety and confusion.

D

Backtothemac
Mar 9, 2004, 01:35 PM
ah, but in Christianity's version, not your interpretation, its very human centric. Jesus, as the Son of God is a great example. Regardless whether you can deal with it or not, there are far more who won't be able to and will look to religious leaders for answers. Answers that aren't in the Bible. Which requires some adjustments. And what if the Aliens have their own Jesus? Its not a simple thing and something that I'm sure has been debated for as long as we've been looking up at the stars and wondering what's out there.

That's why I've been saying that we're not capable, socially, to handle First Contact yet. It would cause too much strife, anxiety and confusion.

D
I can see that point. Unless of course they actually called him Jesus. That would actually be very cool ;)

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 01:39 PM
I can see that point. Unless of course they actually called him Jesus. That would actually be very cool ;)

But you see, you're anthropomorphizing there - you're assuming that communication would be audible and have vowels and consonants :D

D

Doctor Q
Mar 9, 2004, 02:34 PM
It's not quite as important as settling the meaning of our existence, but I'd like to say that I love agreenster's avatar. It even suits the discussion of E.T.

Of course, if you change your avatar in the future, this post is not going to make sense!

wdlove
Mar 9, 2004, 02:44 PM
Jesus came to make the word flesh. He came to fulfill the word of the Old Testament. To God a day is a 1000 years and a 1000 years is a day. So allowing for his great creation.

Mantat
Mar 9, 2004, 04:05 PM
About other planet with life forms:
It as been 'proven' that we are probably alone in the universe, or at the very least, our cousins are so far from us that we are never going to see them, ever.

How they figured that our?
Statistic! Even if there are Gazillions of star system, for life to emerge (what ever the form) a planet need very specific conditions. These conditions are so restrictive that the probability are quicky becoming ridiculous. Too bad, I lost the name of the book who made the maths but I guess its on amazone...

Some of the elements were:
- existence of a big planet (Jupiter) to grab all the roaming asteroid
- size of the sun
- age of the system
- earth / water (liquid) ratio
- temperature variation
- etc...

Moral of the story: take care of the earth, she is one of a kind...

As about god as master of the universe: To an ant, a man is a god...

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 04:08 PM
Jesus came to make the word flesh. He came to fulfill the word of the Old Testament. To God a day is a 1000 years and a 1000 years is a day. So allowing for his great creation.

Unless there's more explanation to your comment above, that really doesn't make any sense in this discussion.

One thing about the universe is that we won't know everything about it - that's both scary and comforting at the same time :D

D

Backtothemac
Mar 9, 2004, 04:11 PM
About other planet with life forms:
It as been 'proven' that we are probably alone in the universe, or at the very least, our cousins are so far from us that we are never going to see them, ever.

How they figured that our?
Statistic! Even if there are Gazillions of star system, for life to emerge (what ever the form) a planet need very specific conditions. These conditions are so restrictive that the probability are quicky becoming ridiculous. Too bad, I lost the name of the book who made the maths but I guess its on amazone...

Some of the elements were:
- existence of a big planet (Jupiter) to grab all the roaming asteroid
- size of the sun
- age of the system
- earth / water (liquid) ratio
- temperature variation
- etc...

Moral of the story: take care of the earth, she is one of a kind...

As about god as master of the universe: To an ant, a man is a god...

Ah, not so fast my friend. To sustain carbon based life, you are correct. But what if the life was say, lead based? They have found bateria living in the vents of Yellowstone that are either lead or iron based life forms. I cannot remember. Life will find a way. If you constrict the rules to the rules of earth, then you are right. But there are no rules that apply to life out there other than the simple answer, which is, we don't know.

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 04:16 PM
About other planet with life forms:
It as been 'proven' that we are probably alone in the universe, or at the very least, our cousins are so far from us that we are never going to see them, ever.

Moral of the story: take care of the earth, she is one of a kind...

Ah, but you see, you're making assumptions based on the limited knowledge that we can see with our own eyes. That's like b2tm said, its very narrow minded, even using science to calculate the odds of other earths. We don't even know if Earth is unique and we don't know if Earth like planets are the only ones capable of harboring life. Not only that, we really can't say for sure what other types of life forms are out there.

You can't use science to back up faith because they're like oil and water.

D

wdlove
Mar 9, 2004, 04:27 PM
I believe that faith and science are very compatible. Our pastor that has his PHd in the Old Testament was trained in science prior to his Seminary training feels the same way. We have many scientists in our church. They say that for them it has all become very clear.

Makosuke
Mar 9, 2004, 04:35 PM
You are 100% correct. There are thousands of galaxies in that picture. How many suns and planets in a galaxy? Thousands? Millions?Billions. I absolutely love the Hubble Deep Field images, and this third one (it is the third one, right? I didn't miss any, did I?), being the deepest, is also the coolest.

I can't get enough of looking at all of those tiny points of light (not just the bigger ones where you can discern shape), and realizing that every single one contains billions of individual stars, like the vast sweep of our own Milky Way, and then further realizing that the area in that "window" is only the size of the head of a pin held at arm's length, and every other little patch of sky looks about like that if you look closely enough, and that's only as far as we can see. Makes you realize how small (and yet how precious) our world is, and how petty humans are for the most part.

On religion: The point about religion these images really drive home for me is how miserably petty and small-minded most people who consider themselves religous are in their image of God. There's a universe of truly unfathomable vastness and mind-boggling beauty out there, and yet some people would rather think that the best God could manage is a tiny ball of rock 8,000 years old, or the color of a human's skin is somehow important to the Supreme Being responsible for all this. Reality is far more impressive.

Personally, I don't see how you could look at a construct so vast and not believe in a force of some sort behind it. I'm Catholic, but I don't see the problem with also being a scientist, and it'd pathetically small minded to not think there's plenty of life out there, some vastly more advanced than us; some churches obviously have a huge problem with things like this (creationists...), but at least some formal forms of religion, when faced with scientific fact, try to take it in.

Here's one more thought: There is, by most scientific estimates, more complexity at work in the biology of a flea than in the construction of a galaxy--life is impressive stuff in its own way.

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 04:40 PM
I believe that faith and science are very compatible. Our pastor that has his PHd in the Old Testament was trained in science prior to his Seminary training feels the same way. We have many scientists in our church. They say that for them it has all become very clear.

Can you explain to me how?

Sure, you can look at the heavens and be in awe of what you see - but that doesn't prove the existence of God any more than your faith in Him proves it.

D

Doctor Q
Mar 9, 2004, 05:03 PM
Amonia might do instead of water, and silicon might do instead of carbon, so there are other possible bases for life. From what I have read, the odds favor the existence of life somewhere besides Earth. However, no matter how advanced another civilization is, it may be subject to laws of physics that prevent them from reaching us, so we might never learn of their existence, and them of ours. Too bad. It would be a great boost for the tourist industry.

Just think: On another world, Macs might be the dominant type of computer. The "universal access" features might come in handy elsewhere in the universe!

agreenster
Mar 9, 2004, 06:00 PM
It's not quite as important as settling the meaning of our existence, but I'd like to say that I love agreenster's avatar. It even suits the discussion of E.T.

Of course, if you change your avatar in the future, this post is not going to make sense!

He's not an alien! He's a TURTLE! Awww geez. Back to the drawing board...:) Maybe if you saw his shell and everything...

I just hope Pixar responds as well to my little creation as much as the folks here have....just finished my demo reel today!! :D yaay!

agreenster
Mar 9, 2004, 06:08 PM
I believe that faith and science are very compatible. Our pastor that has his PHd in the Old Testament was trained in science prior to his Seminary training feels the same way. We have many scientists in our church. They say that for them it has all become very clear.

Thats not a very strong argument. Just because your pastor and fellow church friends have their science training, doesnt mean they have the answers to the universe. Again, kinda arrogant.

I think what Mr.A and some of us are saying is, there is SO little we ACTUALLY know about the universe outside of our own that the training and learning we receive here might mean absolutely nothing to another planet. There could be elements and chemicals and DNA structures that are leaps and bounds beyond what we have ever heard of. There could be other sensory structures (sight, sound, taste, etc) beyond our own, and we wouldnt even know we bumped into an alien if we did, because we couldnt even detect them!

I dont know. I think its safe to say that we dont know much and only time will tell about the mysteries of the universe. But pretending to KNOW because of someone's claim of religious/spiritual enlightenment, and how it correlates with their community college degree is pretty lame.

Thats why I try to live my life with the philosophy of not knowing, and constantly learning, filtering out the junk as I go...and when I die, if I'm face to face with God/thecreator/whatever, I think its safe to say it wont be dissapointed with those practices. At least its not pretentious.

Mantat
Mar 9, 2004, 06:30 PM
I am so sorry to not be able to find the name of the book I read about life...

One of the important thing in the study that I forgot to mention was that I was talking about <intelligent life form>. This is a big difference than just <life form>.

For exemple, out of all the life form on earth, probably less than 0,1% is intelligent. Now, the chances that, in our time frame, we see a planet able to carry intelligent life are very small. Species come and go and human are probably going to be gone in less than 100,000 years. So, for an alien to meet us here, he would have to be closer than 100k light years away. This is a very short distance in space. So you can see that ths is a very limiting factor.

There are many other critera that I cant think of right now. They are not based on the possibility of life on another planet but on the chances that this life will be intelligent and able to exist at the same time as us.

Stelliform
Mar 9, 2004, 06:51 PM
If humanity were to expand into just 1% of the universe.... Can you imagine how long everyone's zip code would be? :D

Awesome pic!

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 07:07 PM
One of the important thing in the study that I forgot to mention was that I was talking about <intelligent life form>. This is a big difference than just <life form>.

For exemple, out of all the life form on earth, probably less than 0,1% is intelligent. Now, the chances that, in our time frame, we see a planet able to carry intelligent life are very small. Species come and go and human are probably going to be gone in less than 100,000 years. So, for an alien to meet us here, he would have to be closer than 100k light years away. This is a very short distance in space. So you can see that ths is a very limiting factor.


But you're just rationalizing you assumptions - which doesn't really get you anywhere. I'm an optimist and believe we're not alone and until proven otherwise, that's what I'm sticking with. You're a little more doubtful and that's fine too - you have the same info as I do and the same lack of info as well :D

As for intelligent life on other planets in our lifetime, don't be so pessimistic. It could be under the ice on Europa - we won't know till we get there. How intelligent remains to be seen, but there are lots of sea life that have had to develop large complex brains other than mammals. Octopi and squid come to mind here.

Again, I'm open to anything and know that I won't have all the answers in my life time. I just hope to see even more awe inspiring images as the time goes on.

D

raynegus
Mar 9, 2004, 07:14 PM
They had that picture in a National Geographic a while back. They said it was taken in an area of the sky that seemed to have nothing in it. The field of view was equivalent to holding a grain of sand at arm's length. That is one tiny piece of sky to blow up. Amazing.

Doctor Q
Mar 9, 2004, 07:49 PM
He's not an alien! He's a TURTLE! Awww geez. Back to the drawing board...:)Don't change a thing. Yes, now I can see that the little feller is a turtle. And the first life form we find elsewhere in the universe might very well look like a turtle (http://pbskids.org/arthur/print/cosmiccombos/images/alien_5_turtle.gif).