iBook & PowerBook Hard Drives 4200RPM??? [Archive]

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jumpman25

Mar 9, 2004, 01:31 PM

Stolid

Mar 9, 2004, 02:23 PM

For those of you that have iBooks or PowerBooks with 4200RPM hard drives I was just wondering what your thoughts on them are. Are they very very slow? Can you rip a DVD to the hard drive and watch? Any info on the 4200RPM hard drives or any recomendations would be appreciated. I am going to switch from PC to mac within the next few weeks but just want to make sure that the 4200RPM drive will not slow down the computer too much. Thanks
I can't speak first person but I've heard quite a few people say that if you've got a workable amount of RAM (512 or so I'd guess), that the next big bottleneck is HD RPMs being low. Just like any slow part; it will slow things down. Computers are really famous for 'weakest link' style processing - the DVD watching from the HD should be doable; but give the rest of your system. The trick is balance in parts and purpose of what you're doing with the system.

MacNut

Mar 9, 2004, 03:38 PM

Faster is always better so if you can afford it get the fastest HD possible. The 4200 wont make working unbearable but a 5400 will make it better.

P.S. Im currently running a PB with 5400 rpm and its quick.

superbovine

Mar 9, 2004, 06:37 PM

yeah it makes a big difference between a 4200 to 5400 to 7200 in performance, but also in price.

switch to a lower rpm drive puts a good price point on the powerbooks. what you can do is upgrade the hard drive. if you google around there is serveral good tutorials for doing. if you do video or audio editing or anything that is hard drive intensive task you will see a difference. if you are just a surfer and emailer it won't make much. your boot times will be shorter though.

stefan_km

Mar 10, 2004, 08:58 AM

jxyama

Mar 10, 2004, 09:54 AM

you can run directly off the external FW no problem.

if you need to do some serious work on it, get the one with a bigger buffer, i.e. 8 MB instead of usual 2 MB as well as a faster disk.

i have a 40 GB 2GB buffer 4200 rpm FW disk (which is pretty much the same as my internal) and i can watch a 650 MB compressed mpeg movie off of it no problem. i don't do serious work on it, but i think it will work fine...

jumpman25

Mar 10, 2004, 01:13 PM

blackfox

Mar 10, 2004, 01:57 PM

Thanks for the replies. I just wanted to make sure that there wouldn't be a big degrade in performance. I can live with some things loading a little slower, but I guess if I'm not happy with the 4200 RPM I can upgrade. Has anybody tried upgrading their hard drives. If so how does the new drive work.
I upgraded my stock HD on my Pismo (4200rpm) to a new 7200rpm one (I needed the space too-10G was too small). Very noticable speedup with disk-intensive tasks, overall speed increase justified the *considerable* expense, but it is not necessary, as above posters have mentioned...I am just trying to squeeze as much performance as I can out of my baby...all a question of priorities.

BrandonRP0123

Mar 10, 2004, 10:30 PM

Naimfan

Mar 10, 2004, 10:33 PM

superbovine

Mar 11, 2004, 01:14 AM

Can anyone offer an estimate on how much the 5400 HD improves overall system performance? I've seen the Barefeats numbers on the performance increase from the stock HD to the 5400, but I'd be interested in getting a sense of how much OVERALL performance is boosted. Is there a test on Barefeats, or anywhere else, that shows this?

Best,

Bob

you best beat is the 7200, don't even upgrade to the 5400. an upgrade to the 7200 will 15% would be a moderate guess. my beat would be 20%+
you computer will boot faster, and generally read/write faster. you have to realize in your computer system the hard drive is the bottle neck for speed beside the human i/o speed.

Counterfit

Mar 11, 2004, 02:38 AM

you best beat is the 7200, don't even upgrade to the 5400. an upgrade to the 7200 will 15% would be a moderate guess. my beat would be 20%+
you computer will boot faster, and generally read/write faster. you have to realize in your computer system the hard drive is the bottle neck for speed beside the human i/o speed. Except you can't get a 7200RPM laptop drive from Apple.

GroundLoop

Mar 11, 2004, 06:43 AM

For anyone interested in performance and battery drain difference between different RPM drives, read this:

http://www.tomshardware.com/mobile/20031031/index.html

Hickman

superbovine

Mar 11, 2004, 02:44 PM

For anyone interested in performance and battery drain difference between different RPM drives, read this:

http://www.tomshardware.com/mobile/20031031/index.html

Hickman

thanx brian :)

Naimfan

Mar 11, 2004, 02:51 PM

bunkre

Mar 11, 2004, 04:26 PM

how about firewire harddrives ? can you work with files directly on a external harddrive or is it first copyed yo the internal, then to the external?
I don't need a really fast harddrive on the go but at home it would be nice for audio editing

for pro tools i use a 17" PB and an external 7200 rpm firewire, and it works really really well. if i try to use the internal for that tho (5400?) i get limited to only a few tracks and minor plugins. of course, that probably has more to do with the fact that its the system drive more than anything...

anyhow, 7200 rpm firewire drives are cheap enough these days, arent they?

MacRAND

Mar 11, 2004, 06:43 PM

Brian and Superbovine---
Thanks--the Toms link helped. Based on that, I'd expect to see roughly a 5-10% boost in overall system performance in going from a 4200 to a 5400 RPM HD. That's assuming the results from XP are transferable to Mac...
The reason I've ruled out a 7200 RPM HD is that I can't get one from Apple and am not willing to chance voiding Applecare...Bob, I plan to get a loaded 15" PB soon but will order it with the smallest, slowest HD I can because I intend to immediately purchase & install a 7200 rpm 60GB drive, if I need to avoid warranty problems, I'll simply have an Apple Authorized shop install it for $29.
(Working on my Quicksilver Tower is no problem, laptops intimidate me).
Besides, before the NEW PB, I have decided to replace the 30GB drive with the 60GB 7200rpm IBM and have even found a couple of best buys with shipping free at:
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=100519
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-146-020&depa=0
Also, their reputation online is really good, especially compared to other dealers who sell this $214 IBM HD for barely $5 less.
http://images10.newegg.com/productimage/22-146-020-01.JPG
Oh, yes, the reason I'm convinced on the benefits of installing the Travelstar 60GB 2.5in 7200rpm HD IBM Hitachi is that every one of my MacBuddies who has, absolutely raves about how much more solidly their book feels, and that the speed increase is awesome - whether it gives new life to an old PowerBook, or simply peps up a new iBook.
If you go 7200rpm you won't regret it, not for a second

jumpman25

Mar 11, 2004, 09:58 PM

Hey MacRAND,

If your going to buy the Hitachi 7200RPM laptop drive I would reccomend you buy it at Newegg.com. I am thinking I am going to do the same thing you are doing and am going to buy the 7200RPM drive there. It is $214 with free shipping. I have placed over 10 orders with NewEgg and they have the best customer service I have experienced. They ship very fast as well. The link to the drive is:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=manufactory&catalog=380&manufactory=1984&DEPA=0&sortby=14&order=1

I'm not discrediting you source or anything like that. I've just bought from newegg many times and am very satisfied.

Just my 2 Cents

maclamb

Mar 11, 2004, 10:50 PM

I'll simply have an Apple Authorized shop install it for $29.
.
Where can you get this done for $29.00??? :confused:
My local apple guy wants to charge $150 :mad: - which is my main reason for not doing it.
I DID get a Toshiba 7200 RPM and put it into my Dell 2.4GInspiron (thank you dell for including user-swappable drives - In this respect Apple Sux :mad: )

I went from a 4200 RPM drive to a 7200 and the machine SMOKES _ FAST boot - VERY snappy performance - Absolutely the way to go! The whole system is noticably faster.
I have a ibook g4/900 and it seems to lag a lot
I have the apple tech manual - but opening the machine scares me.
If I could get a tech to do it for $30 I would do it in a second. Maybe I need to call around...

MacRAND

Mar 12, 2004, 02:27 AM

Hey MacRAND,
If your going to buy the Hitachi 7200RPM laptop drive I would reccomend you buy it at Newegg.com. I am thinking I am going to do the same thing you are doing and am going to buy the 7200RPM drive there. It is $214 with free shipping. http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=manufactory&catalog=380&manufactory=1984&DEPA=0&sortby=14&order=1
...I've just bought from newegg many times and am very satisfied.
Excellent, I hope you don't mind, after checking the site out, the prices and free shipping are the same, to I added NewEgg.com to my post. It's always better to provide several choices so it doesn't look like we are promoting one or the other. Thanks, JumpMan25.

MacRAND

Mar 12, 2004, 02:42 AM

Where can you get this done for $29.00 ??? :confused:
My local apple guy wants to charge $150 :mad: - which is my main reason for not doing it.
I DID get a Toshiba 7200 RPM and put it into my Dell 2.4GInspiron (thank you dell for including user-swappable drives -
In this respect Apple Sux :mad: )

I went from a 4200 RPM drive to a 7200 and the machine SMOKES _ FAST boot - VERY snappy performance - Absolutely the way to go!
The whole system is noticably faster.
I have a ibook g4/900 and it seems to lag a lot
I have the apple tech manual - but opening the machine scares me.
If I could get a tech to do it for $30 I would do it in a second. Maybe I need to call around...I would shop around, Fry's Electronics - a salesman said Service would do it for $29. I'd prefer MacSales which is an Apple Auth. shop - don't know their price yet.
I'd shop around. $100 anything is too much, heck I'd do it myself for that...unless warranty was a problem - don't know.

Looked at the Dell Inspiron and couldn't see any swapable drive except maybe the Combo drive - but, that's not your main drive and you lose the laser drive. And that sucker is THICK, makes the PowerBook look amazingly thin. How do you like the way your PC runs?

How intimidating does HD replacement appear in the Apple Manual?
iBooks from G3 to G4 shouldn't be that much different in the HD area, I hope. Good luck.

MacRAND

Mar 12, 2004, 02:53 AM

For anyone interested in performance and battery drain difference between different RPM drives, read this:
http://www.tomshardware.com/mobile/20031031/index.html
HickmanThanks, for the site Hickman
Besides the fact that the IBM/Hitachi 80GB 7200rpm drive was very impressive in all categories I care about, I loved the statement?
"One result is particularly interesting - the fact that even a clearly faster hard drive like the 7200-rpm model from Hitachi only makes a negligible dent in the battery life."

Stolid

Mar 12, 2004, 03:53 AM

Looked at the Dell Inspiron and couldn't see any swapable drive except maybe the Combo drive - but, that's not your main drive and you lose the laser drive. And that sucker is THICK, makes the PowerBook look amazingly thin. How do you like the way your PC runs?
Dell Inspiron drives are WONDERFULLY replacable. I have 3! (2x 40s and a 20); and swapping them is, just pulling the drive out (and, if you're in the mood to be careful, taking in/out a phillips head screw) -- you don't have to even flip the system over or anything. The drive is on the side of the case and just slides in and out like a really big PCMCIA card :P
OTOH I've had SOOOOOOOOOOOO many problems with Inspiron power supplies :mad:

Edit: hit the wrong reply button, so wrong quote
Edit 2: http://docs.us.dell.com/docs/systems/ins8200/en/sm_en/hdd.htm#1084976

Rincewind42

Mar 12, 2004, 06:44 AM

For anyone interested in performance and battery drain difference between different RPM drives, read this:

http://www.tomshardware.com/mobile/20031031/index.html

Hickman

I hate to burst anyone's bubble but there is a huge problem with these tests - the driver buffer is 4x larger on the 5400 & 7200 RPM drives. This obfuscates the results somewhat, so we really don't know if the speed gain (claimed of up to only 15%) was from a faster spindle alone or from the drive cache. Unfortunately there wasn't a proper control done; all three drives are different sizes, manufacturers, two different interfaces, different number of read heads, and areal density.

A proper experiment would involve the same drive mechanics (all XGB, from the same manufacturer with the same areal density and on the same interface, with the same cache size, same number of read heads) on all three drives with spindle speed being the only difference. You can actually see the problems with the test if you look at the various results.

Digital Video:
The 7200 barely beats the 5400 drive - granted this is probably only partially a test of the HD, but for 33% more RPM, I would expect more than a paltry 2.4% speed increase. By comparison the 7200 RPM drive gave an 18.3% increase over the 4200 RPM drive, but has a 71.4% faster spindle speed!

Winbench 99:
This test is actually more interesting because it gives us a comparison factor for what a larger cache can do. Granted the desktop comparison drive is old, so a newer model would likely perform better, but the 3.5" 7200 vs the 2.5" 7200 (2MB cache vs 8MB cache) provides a 15.4% speed gain. By comparison the note book hard drives give 26.2% (5400 v 7200), 86.5% (4200 v 7200), and 47.6% (5400 v 4200). A note of caution here is that synthetic benchmarks like Winbench rarely translate directly into real world performance. Seeing as how the cache difference alone accounts for the general 15% speed up claimed by the article, I hope you start to see why it's failing apart.

System Book WinXP:
Again we find less than predicted gains. 4200 v 7200 gives us only a 21.7% increase - almost all likely to be attributable to disk cache. The 5400 v 7200 gives us only a 4.3% gain, and 5400 v 4200 gives us 16.7% - again within reach of disk cache alone.

Sysmark 2002:
Overall results only show an 8.6% (7200 v 4200), 3.2% (5400 v 4200) or 5.2% (7200 v 5400) gain. This test probably shows more than anything that for most people the difference won't be spectacular while your doing your ordinary work. If your work entails the HD more than these tests did you would likely see better results.

Battery Impact:
Here we see another flaw that is exposed due to different sources for each drive. The Hitachi 7K60 is rated at similar power usage when active (using about .1W more during read/write and .2W more during seek). However hard disks are often in idle/standby mode MUCh more often than seek/read/write. Here the Hitachi drive shows it's superiority by using .12W less in idle, and .11W less in standby. [Note: The Hitachi drive mentions an "Active Idle" mode which I presume is an intermediate between activity and idle, the Seagate doesn't mention this statistic. The Hitachi also mentions a Sleep mode that uses only .1W and would thus be superior to the Seagate for extended non-usage of the HD]. The 40GN by comparison does have the lowest power usage of them all, using nearly half a watt less power in active modes, and .2W less in idle than the Hitachi drive. [NOTE: Hitachi actually made the Travelstar drives for IBM, thus this is likely why they are similar in these modes].
Finally, the drive caches on the Seagate and Hitachi drives almost certainly allow these drives to operate in their lower power modes more frequently, thus giving them better power usage characteristics than you would otherwise expect. I bet if these drives carried 2MB caches instead of 8MB, you'd see much higher power usage (and thus more significant loss of running time).

Bottomline:
This review does provide useful information, however the conclusion is flawed.
1) The drives tested are just too different from each other. A completely impartial test would have tried to fix as many characteristics between the various drives as possible. In this case far too many things that could affect the test significantly were different between the drives.
2) There was no mention of the obfuscating effect of cache size. This is shown primarily in the Winbench 99 synthetic benchmark where an older 3.5" 7200RPM drive with 2MB of cache is trounced by the 2.5" 7200RPM drive with 8MB of cache. Unfortunately this comparison is also imperfect, but at least here something is fixed between the compared drives.
3) Often the tests didn't show a huge margin of difference between the drives (the 5400 v 7200 often showed <10% difference) and the huge margins often could be just as attributable to the large cache of the 5400 & 7200 models.

I don't dispute that drives with faster spindle speeds can't produce better results - they can. But this review if nothing else actually points out that there are other avenues to speed gains than simply spindle speed. The data could also extrapolate that cache size has a very definite affect on performance, and if you look at the results with this eye, you can see that going from 2MB to 8MB often showed a large improvement, while 5400 RPM to 7200RPM showed a small one. Sometimes with tests like this what your looking for is what you see rather than what is actually there. The 5400 & 7200 RPM drives perform better because they are built with newer technology, not just because they spin faster!

So for those of you looking to get new hard drives for your laptops, I would recommend looking at what size disk cache they offer first, then what spindle speed they offer. The larger disk cache enables the drive to read-ahead more data when requested, and to store data for writes when the drive head has to seek. Both of these allow for better performance [less waiting on disk writes) & battery life [less reading directly from the drive means more time in lower power usage states]. If you find you really do need that extra 5-10% above what a larger cache offers, then go for the faster RPM drives. But don't expect a speed boost equivalent to the difference in RPM, I'm afraid that you simply won't get one in most cases.

maclamb

Mar 12, 2004, 08:31 AM

Dell Inspiron drives are WONDERFULLY replacable. I have 3! (2x 40s and a 20); and swapping them is, just pulling the drive out (and, if you're in the mood to be careful, taking in/out a phillips head screw) -- you don't have to even flip the system over or anything. The drive is on the side of the case and just slides in and out like a really big PCMCIA card :P

Sorry - I wasn't precise - they are not "swappable" like the cdrom - this poster is correct - they are easy to remove )one screw and they pop out - and it's easy to have a couple of extra drives w/ spare caddies and have a linux machine, win, or whatever. It's dissapointing that apple is so far out on this. Hell -the hard drive on the Wallstreet powerbook was easier to replace.
How hard is the ibook - well the docs are pretty thorough and I would give it a shot - but it's less than a month old and I don't want to void the warranty...I'll call around.

Tastannin

Mar 12, 2004, 09:53 AM

I've seen the Toshiba MK5024GAY drive on PriceWatch. If cache is the major factor in a drive's performance - this is the one to get. 50GB, 2.5 form factor, 7200 rpm, and a whopping 16MB of cache!

Not much info out there via Google. Prices seem to be around $200.

http://www.directron.com/mk5024gay.html
http://www.computergiants.com/items/part_number.asp?part=MK5024GAY

Here's Toshiba's specs on the drive (via the Fish via their Japanese pages):
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww3.toshiba.co.jp%2Fstorage%2Fjapanese%2Fspec%2Fhdd%2Fmk5024gayj.htm&lp=ja_en&tt=url

Direct link to Toshiba's specs in japanese:
http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/storage/japanese/spec/hdd/mk5024gayj.htm

Just wonder if this would be a better choice if indeed cache is the deciding factor, not RPM.

Cheers,
Ryan

MacRAND

Mar 12, 2004, 10:14 AM

I hate to burst anyone's bubble but there is a huge problem with these tests - the driver buffer is 4x larger on the 5400 & 7200 RPM drives. This obfuscates the results somewhat, so we really don't know if the speed gain (claimed of up to only 15%) was from a faster spindle alone or from the drive cache. Unfortunately there wasn't a proper control done; all three drives are different sizes, manufacturers, two different interfaces, different number of read heads, and areal density.

A proper experiment would involve the same drive mechanics (all XGB, from the same manufacturer with the same areal density and on the same interface, with the same cache size, same number of read heads) on all three drives with spindle speed being the only difference. You can actually see the problems with the test if you look at the various results.
snip...
Bottomline:
This review does provide useful information, however the conclusion is flawed.
1) The drives tested are just too different from each other. A completely impartial test would have tried to fix as many characteristics between the various drives as possible. In this case far too many things that could affect the test significantly were different between the drives.
2) There was no mention of the obfuscating effect of cache size. This is shown primarily in the Winbench 99 synthetic benchmark where an older
3.5" 7200RPM drive with 2MB of cache is
trounced by the
2.5" 7200RPM drive with 8MB of cache.
Unfortunately this comparison is also imperfect, but at least here something is fixed between the compared drives.
3) Often the tests didn't show a huge margin of difference between the drives (the 5400 v 7200 often showed <10% difference) and the huge margins often could be just as attributable to the large cache of the 5400 & 7200 models.

I don't dispute that drives with faster spindle speeds can't produce better results - they can.
But this review if nothing else actually points out that there are other avenues to speed gains than simply spindle speed.
The data could also extrapolate that cache size has a very definite affect on performance, and if you look at the results with this eye, you can see that going from 2MB to 8MB often showed a large improvement, while 5400 RPM to 7200RPM showed a small one.

Sometimes with tests like this what your looking for is what you see rather than what is actually there.

The 5400 & 7200 RPM drives perform better because they are built with newer technology, not just because they spin faster!

So for those of you looking to get new hard drives for your laptops, I would recommend looking at
[b]what size disk cache they offer first, then
what spindle speed they offer.

The larger disk cache enables the drive to read-ahead more data when requested, and to store data for writes when the drive head has to seek. Both of these allow for better
performance [less waiting on disk writes) & better
battery life [less reading directly from the drive means more time in lower power usage states].
If you find you really do need that extra 5-10% above what a larger cache offers, then go for the faster RPM drives.
But don't expect a speed boost equivalent to the difference in RPM, I'm afraid that you simply won't get one in most cases.Rincewind42, I have rarely seen such an amazingly detailed and skillfully prepared analysis; and it would be hard to argue with what you have said - because your analysis appears to be absolutely supportable from the data presented by you and to the extent you relied upon from the author of the test.
http://www.tomshardware.com/mobile/20031031/index.html

I also found the same limitations with regard to the selection and testing of just 3 drives, but this soon melted away when I considered this "real world" alternatives, despite their lack of 'scientiific" comparison to drives more similar by
manufacturer, size, state of technology, rpm rotational speed, and cache.
Like you, I would have preferred to have seen a review of 12, 15, or 27 drives.

But, then...I thought about it and decided, it really did NOT make that much difference, though it would have been more scientific had the number of drives and data been more exhaustive.

Let me explain:

About 18 months ago, I added 3 Western Digital internal drives to my Quicksilver dual 1GHz,
first testing the speed of each of the 3 drives, then comparing a
200GB OS X Jaguar software RAID comprised of
• 2 100GB 2MB cache drives which had exactly 2x as many platters & heads as the, single
200GB with 8MB cache drive

I found that the difference in "cache size" made little or no discernable difference (confirming what I had repeatedly heard, despite "advertisements" by manufacturers to the contrary); but I was lackiing several things to make the test more scientific -
(1) an 8MB cache 100GB drive
(2) an 8MB cache 100GB drive to make second matching RAID
(3) an 8MB cache 200GB drive to make third matching RAID

What I discovered was that the 200GB RAID made from two
2MB 100GB drives were almost exactly twice as fast as the
8MB 200GM drive with has as many platters and heads as the RAID of two combined drives.

Or, to put it another way, the larger 8mb cache HD was a waste of money compared to almost the same investment in 2 100GB HG with smaller cache when combined as a softweare RAID..

Both TESTS (mine & the one done by tomshardware) were done on the CHEAP, and each has shortcomings.
But, , unless you or someone (not me) wants to pluck down the coins to acquire & extensively test a broad number of drives from several competing

Manufacturers - at least
• Hitachi/IBM
• IBM
• Seagate
• Western Digital
• SONY
• Toshiba (or Maxtor, etc.)

Rotational speeds applicable to Mobile (Laptop) drives; and in common with Half Heights
• 4200 rpm
• 5400 rpm
• 7200 rpm

Storage Size "bracketing" standard to maximum mobile sizes of at least
40 GB
60 GB
80 GB
______________________________________________

Further TESTING is not likely to happen because of expense and frankly not enough people care.
Therefore, this places considerable value on the existing review, regardless of how limited, and how "flawed" it is, because it focused on one mobile Hard Drive that appears arguably to be the fastest/largest/best made & Most Popular laptop HD sold today -- the
IBM Hitachi Travelstar 60GB 2.5" 7200rpm HD
Available from several sources:
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=100519
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProdu...-146-020&depa=0
Each for an amazingly low price of $214 with free shipping.

From real world experience of actual buyers/users, their reactions appear to be uniformly favorable.

No complaints of:
• power or battery drain
• negative performance

Comments that the drive
• felt perceptably more solid than whatever drive it replaced
• is noticibly faster in all drive intensive actions
• favorable comments about low noise operation
• improved startup time and transfer of data
• degree of satisfaction ± and recommendation you would make to others

Even when comparing this small mobile with any 3 platter standard 1/2 height drive, regardless of the cache used.

QUESTION: Please share your COMMENTS (good or bad) about your personal experience concerning the performance (or, lack thereof) of the
IBM Hitachi Travelstar 60GB 2.5" 7200rpm HD with 8MB cache
or any other competitive "replacement" drive for your laptop.

Please describe the
1. NEW drive
2. OLD drive
3. Your Laptop
4. Results and your objective & subjective feelings & observations
5. Approximate cost of HD and where you acquired it and when
6. Who installed it and for how much.
7. any other observations, including what you did with the replaced drive (sold it; installed it in a FireWire enclosure; stuck it in the bottom drawer of my desk, etc.)

Rincewind42

Mar 12, 2004, 11:12 AM

Rincewind42, I have rarely seen such an amazingly detailed and skillfully prepared analysis; and it would be hard to argue with what you have said - because your analysis appears to be absolutely supportable from the data presented by you and to the extent you relied upon from the author of the test.

Thank you for the compliment :).

About 18 months ago, I added 3 Wester Digital internal drives to my Quicksilver dual 1GHz,
first testing the speed of each of the 3 drives, then comparing a
200GB OS X Jaguar software RAID comprised of
• 2 100GB 2MB cache drives having 2x as many platters & heads as the, single
200GB 8MB cache drive with 3 platters.

I found that the difference in "cache size" made little or no discernable difference (confirming what I had repeatedly heard, despite "advertisements" by manufacturers to the contrary); but I was lackiing two things to make the test more scientific -
(1) an 8MB cache 100GB drive
(2) an 8MB cache 100GB drive to make second matching RAID
(3) an 8MB cache 200GB drive to make third matching RAID

What I discovered was that the RAID of two
2MB 100GB drives were almost exactly twice as fast as te
8MB 200GM drive with has as many platters and heads as the RAID of two combined drives.

Good points, however as with Tom's Winbench test, you will see very little effect come from the cache vs with typical user patterns. Simply put, the typical benchmarking program puts the drive in a diagnostic mode that causes it to do everything but actually write data to the disk and then proceed from the first to the last sector of the drive. In such a test, the cache doesn't matter what-so-ever because there is no seek or rotational latency issues. With real access patterns these issues come to the surface and affect how the drive feels to the user. From a RAID setup I cannot really extrapolate anything (I don't have personal experience with them) but I suspect that caches would have varying effect depending on the RAID mode used (mirrored would see the caches acting differently than stripped).

Both TESTS (mine & the one done by tomshardware) were done on the CHEAP, and each has shortcomings.

Oh I don't doubt that these kinds of tests are often done on the cheap. However it would have been at least prudent to use drives that were all from the same manufacturer. I suspect the test that is shown was probably done for around $500 - at today's prices you could do a 4200/5400/7200 comparison from the same manufacturer at the same size for about $600-$700, which while not chump change isn't outside of the budget of someone who makes their living from commenting on hardware. But, I'm not Tom, so I can't say what his level of income is :p.

From real world experience of actual buyers/users, their reactions appear to be uniformly favorable.
No complaints of:
• power or battery drain
• negative performance
Comments that the drive
• felt perceptably more solid than whatever drive it replaced
• is noticibly faster in all drive intensive actions
• favorable comments about low noise operation
• improved startup time and transfer of data

Even when comparing this small mobile with any 3 platter standard 1/2 height drive, regardless of the cache used.

Why would they complain, they did get the fastest drives available! (My conclusion wasn't that 7200 drives weren't the fastest, just that the conclusion as to why was flawed). I'm simply faulting the article for pointing customers that want more performance at a reasonable cost to look primary at RPM rather than at other considerations. For most people, the data looks like cache is better than RPM. For those who have large data files and primarily linear access then RPM may be a better factor for them, but these aren't average people.

QUESTION: Please share your COMMENTS (good or bad) about your personal experience concerning the the performance (or, lack thereof) of the
IBM Hitachi Travelstar 60GB 2.5" 7200rpm HD with 8MB cache
or any other "replacement" drive for your laptop. Please describe the
1. NEW drive
2. OLD drive
3. Your Laptop
4. Results and your objective & subjectives feelings & observations
5. Approximate cost of HD and where you acquired it and when
6. Who installed it and for how much.
7 any other observations.

I would say that given all the positive reviews of it, the 7K60 is a very good drive (it looks good on paper to me too!). But I would say that there are also other very good drives out there that others may pass up because they are too "slow".

Personally, I very recently replaced my own HD with a Hitachi drive. Since more storage space was my primary concern I went with the 4K80 (4200 RPM, 8MB cache) to replace my Fujitsu 60 gig (4200 RPM, 2MB cache). The primary reason why I did the replacement was that I was getting disk errors more often than I liked (turned out I had some 500 bad sectors that I kept bumping into whenever I went past a particular bytes used on the partition I keep my home folder on).

After first installing the drive in I ran a surface scan on the new drive to make sure I didn't screw anything up in the process. Having run these before with the Fujitsu in I had experienced that trying to do anything else while the scan was going on was fruitless - the computer just lurched through anything else. However when I tried on the new drive, I found that the rest of the system was happy going about normal business even as tens of thousands of sectors (rate of 25 - 45MB/s) were read off the drive for verification, the computer was still quite responsive, launching apps didn't suffer noticeably etc. The drive was labeled with a max read rate of around 45MB/s and I was hitting it without my computer going mad! And in day to day I'm finding that things that hit the HD just feel just that bit faster than the used to. So it was pleasant when I got a nice speed boost out of a drive I bought purely to replace an aging drive and to get more disk space.

Specifics
1. new drive: HITACHI_DK23FA-80 (4200/8MB/80GIG)
2. old drive: FUJITSU MHS2060AT (4200/2MB/60GIG)
3. TiBook 1Ghz
5. $198, newegg.com (oddly, I cannot find this drive on their site anymore - Hitachi lists the drive here: http://www.hgst.com/hdd/travel/tr4k80.htm
6. Did it myself. I don't know if I will ever do that again :p.

maclamb

Mar 12, 2004, 02:42 PM

I would shop around, Fry's Electronics - a salesman said Service would do it for $29. I'd prefer MacSales which is an Apple Auth. shop - don't know their price yet.
I'd shop around. $100 anything is too much, heck I'd do it myself for that...unless warranty was a problem - don't know.

Looked at the Dell Inspiron and couldn't see any swapable drive except maybe the Combo drive - but, that's not your main drive and you lose the laser drive. And that sucker is THICK, makes the PowerBook look amazingly thin. How do you like the way your PC runs?

How intimidating does HD replacement appear in the Apple Manual?
iBooks from G3 to G4 shouldn't be that much different in the HD area, I hope. Good luck.

Whatever... I've called two apple service places and they both quote me $100+ to do it - about 2 hours of labor. I've looked at the docs to do it and it can be pretty involved - EVERYTHING comes off except the screen, fan and mobo. I would be skeptical of Frys doing it and keeping the apple warranty for $29.00 (I'd be skeptical of fry's doing anything w/ quality - but I digress...)

So, I may just wait ...

MacRAND

Mar 13, 2004, 02:48 AM

Whatever... I've called two Apple service places and they both quote me $100+ to do it - about 2 hours of labor.
I've looked at the docs to do it and it can be pretty involved - EVERYTHING comes off except the screen, fan and mobo.
I would be skeptical of Frys doing it and keeping the apple warranty for $29.00My friends, maclamb
Rincewind42
I have put my money where my mouth is. Not $217, not $214, but $212 (free 2nd day UPS ground from CA to AZ) at: http://www.ZipZoomFly.com

Yesterday, I ordered the Hitachi/IBM 60GB 7200rpm HD to replace my 30GB 4200 Toshiba (only 12GB room left). My installation choices are:
1. Fry's for their price of $_______
2. MacSales auth shop for $100?
3. Apple Retail Store here in Phoenix
4. MacMedia in Peoria AZ for $______
5. Save $100 and pull/replace 40 screws myself (gulp!) then use the savings to buy .Mac again.
(Plan to EDIT in above amounts as they become available)
So, if you have any updated info on your install experience, share with me please. I WILL be sharing my experience in photos and text here and via
http://www.xlr8yourMac.com/ibook (Mike willing?)

The HD was such a good price, I couldn't resist adding it to a friend's order for something else. Stand by for updates...

maclamb

Mar 13, 2004, 09:53 AM

The HD was such a good price, I couldn't resist adding it to a friend's order for something else. Stand by for updates...

If you chose to do it yourself I can send yo the pdf file from the apple technican manual if yo want - may help. Let me know.
I spoke with a mac technician yesterdya evening and he Strongly advises NOT to put the 7200 RPM drive sin the ibooks/pbooks due to heat issues. He says 4200/5400 are fine. He has installed 7200s and they are coming back with Mobos fried due to heat dfamage.
Curuious to see what will happen with your.
Me? I'm going to sell mine and get a new desk top when they come out and use my dell as my laptop - till the G5s PBs come out.
The tech said they are for late rin theyear and will most likely be the size/form factor of the wallstreets due to cpu cooling issues...

Rincewind42

Mar 13, 2004, 10:30 AM

The tech said they are for late rin theyear and will most likely be the size/form factor of the wallstreets due to cpu cooling issues...

Perhaps, but this is likely his own speculation :). Only Apple knows what the PowerBook G5 will actually look like.

maclamb

Mar 13, 2004, 10:35 AM

Perhaps, but this is likely his own speculation :). Only Apple knows what the PowerBook G5 will actually look like.
Absolutely agreed - he said it was something he was told by someone at macworld - as if that means anything.
Will be interersting, though...

MacRAND

Mar 13, 2004, 09:07 PM

If you chose to do it yourself I can send you the PDF file from the Apple technican manual if yo want - may help. Let me know.MacLamb, yes, I would very much appreciate a PDF on installation of this HD into my G3 iBook 700.
Click on my iChatAV/AIM button and see if I'm online so you can just drag & drop PDF into Text Box (requires high-speed broadband like video at both ends to work), post it so I can download it, otherwise eMail would be very much appreciated.

I never ignore a Tech or Mechanic, but this warning about frying a MotherBoard due to heat is curious since all the people I know who have installed these HD into either their Ti PB or iBook have been extremely pleased with no complaints regarding heat at all.
However, this may explain the reason Apple does NOT offer the 7200rpm as an option.

Even if i fry my $500 iBook, at least I can salvage my HD, AirPort card and ram and perfect-pixel screen.

Gee, parting it out is more valuable than as a whole, functional computer.

win_convert

Mar 13, 2004, 10:54 PM

"rip"

shhhhh! It's "back up", we back up our music and DVDs remember!

jumpman25

Mar 14, 2004, 02:05 AM

I don't think anybody would put out a hard drive for a notebook if it got hot enough to fry a motherboard. The hard drive isn't running all the time anyways, so I would think that it would have time to cool off. Also, I was under the impression that a 7200RPM actually runs less than slower drives because it can load and transfer data faster, thus resulting in less heat than slower drives.

Stolid

Mar 14, 2004, 02:17 AM

maclamb

Mar 14, 2004, 09:32 AM

I agree; I think the reason you get told the 7200 could cause heat damage is a simple 'NIH' type syndrome. Apple doesn't sell 7200 drives so the tech's aren't allowed to put it in without saying that its not offically supported because its not 'Apple approved'.
To put it another way: Assume something WILL cause heat/whatever damage until proven otherwise.
Understood - I hear what you are saying.
What I was told is "I have put these drives into ibooks and Pbooks and they are coming back with fried mobo due to heat damage."
He didn't say he wouldn't do it or it would void the warranty.
So....I'll wait for one of you to do it.
I have a7200 in my dell and ther are no heat issues - but it's setup differently.
I'm also going to sell my ibook and buy a desktop in a couple weeks - it was an interim machine while I waited for new desktops. My dell notebook is fine as a laptop (till G5s come out...)

MacRAND

Mar 14, 2004, 11:03 AM

What I was told is
"I have put these drives into ibooks and Pbooks and
they are coming back with fried mobo due to heat damage."

He didn't say he wouldn't do it or
that it would void the warranty.
So....I'll wait for one of you to do it. (Yeah, thanks MacLamb ;) )
I have a 7200 in my dell and ther are no heat issues - but it's setup differently.MacLamb, I guess if the Hitachi/IBM 7200rpm 60GB Hard Drive burns up my motherboard, then we would have proof that they do that.
Otherwise, I continue to find it very heard to believe that he was talking specifically about the Hitachi/IBM 7200rpm 60GB Hard Drive.
There are other "mobile" drives he could have installed, notably one of the Toshiba 7200's.

I'm not being critical, :p but I'm amazed at how many of our members think nothing of having an Apple PowerMac, while their laptop is a Dell PC.

The whole reason for me getting my iBook in the first place was so I could iSync ALL my office files and ALL the Applications needed to run them (mostly MS Office, FileMaker Pro, and Photoshop). My system is truly a "mobile Mac", and with the Canon mobile i70 printer and Canoscan LiDE30 scanner, I have an office on wheels. Even my go-anywhere Motorola cellphone hard-wire iSyncs (by USB cable) with my Macs.

How can you tolerate cross-platform limitations and duplication of expensive software? :( It would drive me nuts! :rolleyes:

maclamb

Mar 14, 2004, 11:30 AM

MacLamb, I guess if the Hitachi/IBM 7200rpm 60GB Hard Drive burns up my motherboard, then we would have proof that they do that.
How can you tolerate cross-platform limitations and duplication of expensive software? :( It would drive me mad. :rolleyes:

I don't travel anymore (except for occaisional pleasure trips) and so don't need mobility as you describe. My Palm is barely used. I rarely use my cell phone and never isync. As a friend once said "I don't want to be that connected". Fine if you do.
Tolerate? Neither Dell nor Apple asked me what machines they should market ;-)
I use the machine I need to get the job done best with least $
Duplication? I have a friend @ MS and get Office for free - other programs I use I got cheap via educational discounts (photoshop, dreamweaver)
I use my Mac for: web, email, office, limited iphoto, photoshop. Possible some audio production -
Professionally I need WebSphere Studio App Dev, Rational Rose, Db2 (all for work) and these don't run on mac. and the mac IE doesn't work wellwith one cyber campus site I teach on- so need PC IE for that
My PC is quicker than my mac (granted WITH a 7200RPM Drive), but my mac is more fun to use/looks better. The PC connects w/ other pcs better than the mac .
I am a power user/developer/trainer, have worked for Oracle, NeXT, Apple and while I love apple, I am "fluent" technically at a pretty deep level on both machines so for me the differences are not so great. Definately not as great as they used ot be. yes I think Macs are better.
I mostly have a mac to keep my toe in the technology and see what's new on both platforms. I could get by just fine w/ just the dell.
Haven't even got an iPod yet, have no need - but will next month just to keep a toe in.
I spent YEARS deep in the tech industry chasing the butterfly of ever changing techology. spent tons of money and time. learned lots. had lots. Sold lots.
Now I don't do that so much. I operate out of "need based buying". I used to buy what I want . Now I buy what I need. Live simple so others can simply live- that sort of thing. Had a wallstreet up to a few months ago andf it was fine except it couldn't run an external monitor or usb/firewire, or panther, so I got the ibook 933 - great - but a bit sluggish. the hard drive might help this (the point of the thread) but net it would cost me about $300 to up grade it.
So... with the dell as an adequate laptop I can sell the ibook on ebay, add in the hard Drive upgrade $, use my ADC discount to get a DP 1.8G5 for $1800 + ipod 15 for $229 (or less when the new machines come out - I waited due to the noise/bussing issues on the currect g5s - and I don't really need it ;-) but I want a dual screen digital out and fast(er) mac. and I can justify it as an investmer ->
Then, next year I'll probably sell the G5 and buy a mac g5 laptop once the bugs are worked out...By then I may need to be more mobile and will still have both laptops - and my wife can use the dell and me the g5 laptop and we're all happy.
It did take me a while to work through the what I want vs need issue...which may be why I drive a 13 yr old car (paid off) and not the 3 yr old Beamer I used to have at $500/mo -

way too much info - sorry... :)

MacRAND

Mar 14, 2004, 01:42 PM

I don't travel anymore (except for occaisional pleasure trips) and so don't need mobility as you describe.
Then, next year I'll probably sell the G5 and buy a mac g5 laptop once the bugs are worked out...By then I may need to be more mobile and will still have both laptops - and my wife can use the dell and me the g5 laptop and we're all happy.
It did take me a while to work through the what I want vs need issue...which may be why I drive a 13 yr old car (paid off) and not the 3 yr old Beamer I used to have at $500/mo -
way too much info - sorry... :)Well, there is only one thing left to ask... what is your favorite flavor of ice cream?

Hard, but good choices.
The 7200 HD would definitely add some zip if not zoom to your iBook and make it fly, as long as you have already maxxed out the RAM.
I take it the challenge of swapping HDs in the iBook does not interest you very much.
Since I would never go PC, my cyber choices are focused on iBook vs. PowerBook, because either one makes me totally happy.
(Even size is easy for me: 14" or 15", how does it come?)

Ice cream? Remember...

ps: looking forward to PDF

spaceballl

Mar 15, 2004, 04:12 AM

MacRAND

Mar 15, 2004, 02:04 PM

I'm going to upgrade my 30gb iBook hard drive to the 60gb 7200 rpm hard drive. That 15 to 20 percent performance boost should be exactly what I need to hold me over until the G5 'books come out someday...-KevWelcome to the iBook60/7200 Club, Kev.

From this thread of posts, you should already know 2 of the best online places to get the hard drive for about $212, (free shipping; no tax) http://www.ZipZoomFly.com
http://www.NewEgg.com
So have you ORDERED yours yet?

Let us know when you have your 60/7200HD (ordered / received).
Several of us have ordered ours already and are anxiously expecting to receive them by March 23rd. Maybe we should call ourselves the
iBook60/7200
Expectant Fathers' Club

In anticipation of the "birth" of our sweet little hard drives, let me share with you where you can acquire some fo the best TOOLS to be used during the OPERATION.

1st. Jewelers Screw Driver set can be found at Sears for $20, they are color coded, and come in a nice clear vinyl display pouch. You get standard blades, Phillips and Torx® - T8 is required to open back of iBook.
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00945736000

2nd. Magnetic tip screw drivers (Phillips & blade) are available from many sources; I got my Red handled set from Fry's several years ago for under $20 bucks and consider them to be one of the smartest "computer" tool investments I've ever made. I use them in virtually every "repair" or "assembly/disassembly" jobs on my computers, printers, copy machines, phones, fax machines...etc. The magnetic tips hold onto tiny tiny screws when you are (A) pulling them out (and NOT DROPPING them), and then when you (B) fit a screw on the magnetic tip to screw it IN (and that it does NOT FALL OFF is so worth it). While these are optional since you already have to have a set of Jewelers Screw Drivers that include a Torx® T8, if you don't use the magnetic tips in this project, even just to retrieve a fallen screw from a place you cannot otherwise reach, you will need them evenutally.

3rd. Magnifying Glasses so you can SEE those tiny tiny screws and tiny tiny parts.
• Reading Glasses are sold cheaply just about everywhere - Frys, COSTCO, your local drug store. Try them before you buy they.

http://www.action-electronics.com/grc/vlvtmg6.jpg
• Jewelers Magnifying Glasses are specialized in use for $15-$60 but incrediby portable and perfect for this kind of "operation". Some come with a built-in lamp to shed "light" on the subject. http://www.action-electronics.com/aa.htm
http://www.amerimark.com/cgi-bin/am1live/cat_item.html?prod=23441&media=G007514A&days=14
http://www.einsteins-emporium.com/technology/optical/tl150.htm
http://www.seelarger.com/magnifiers/grheadbandwc.htm

• Magnifying Glass on an arm that attaches to a work bench, which usually is lighted.
http://www.action-electronics.com/grc/gc22423.jpg

4th. Egg Carton - where else are you going to (a) put and (b) organize all those tiny tiny screws? The plastic refrigerator kind is ok, but how about just getting the wife and kids a one dozen carton of Easter Eggs to boil, decorate and then eat (or 18 count is good too.) If you carefully cut (scissors) the carton TOP off, you can use the WHITE FOAM type as a tray upon which to place parts (easy to see, clean, and organize).
http://www.cutlersupply.com/cgi-bin/store/agora.cgi?picserve=/Xcp-a.jpg

5th. Digital Camera with small tripod (optional) to take photos of the REMOVAL process -- so you can see how to put it back together again. I also plan to record the event with a Camcorder - that DV tape may save my life. All you have to do is run it in REVERSE to see how to put your iBook back together again, right?

6th. White Terry Cloth Towel to cover the work area. If one side has a smooth Valour surface, so much the better. Why? you ask (1) to keep from scratching the iBook (2) to keep the tiny tiny screws from rolling around and off the table, onto the floor or carpet thereby becoming lost forever, and if you have to make room to spread it out on a bench or table, you at least start out with an uncluttered well-defined work area. White - because little screws are easier to see.

7th. Lighting - if you cannot see it well, you cannot do the job well.

8th. Compressed Air in a can to blow the dust off the inside parts of your iBook. Cans can be found at just about any computer store, electronics store, COSTCO, Radio Shack, Frys, etc.

So far, we have found a couple of sources showing step-by-step photos and descriptions of the DO IT YOURSELF process, and I'm hoping to receive a PDF of the Apple Repair Manual that also hopefully illustrates the removal of 40 tiny tiny screws and the entire process.

If anyone has any other suggestions for preparation, please let us know and the "9th" is yours.

Stay tuned to this channel, Kev.

Counterfit

Mar 15, 2004, 03:35 PM

*snip, lots of stuff not really worth quoting* How long did that take you? :confused: :eek:

MacRAND

Mar 15, 2004, 05:02 PM

How long did that take you? :confused: :eek:
Too long, but graphics were easy.
Besides this thread, I have 2 MacBuddies who have already ordered the Hitachi/IBM 60GB 7200rpm to put into their books, and it looks like we will be doing it at about the same time so we can share exclamations like
"Oh, boy!" and
"When you did that, did anything fall off?"

We had been twisting in the wind over paying $100+ to a tech for installation (we are located all over the world, not in the same city), or taking up the gauntlet and doing it ourselves. Man stuff, trying to be brave.

We've just been sharing tools and directions & stuff, so I organized it from eMails & iChats and shared it on this thread. So far, no one has "chickened out" about doing it ourselves.

Unlike opening the oven door on my Quicksilver, I have a real fear over "cracking" the iBook. I take some comfort in knowing that its parts are worth more than the whole iBook right now, even if I screw up.

Those with 15" PB may want to wait until their warranty expires or their backs are up against the wall with a need for speed.

jumpman25

Mar 15, 2004, 05:16 PM

MacRAND

Mar 15, 2004, 06:20 PM

Hey MacRAND,
I just noticed that you said one of the tools you reccomend is a magnetic tip screwdriver. I was always under the impression that magnets and computer parts didn't go well together (especially with a hard drive). Does it have to do with the strength of the magnet or something.
I would just be curious to know becuase I am always using non-magnetic screwdrivers when I build and work on my systems and it is a pain in the a$$ trying to screw things by myself. The magnetic tip screwdriver would be nice to use.You are correct, you should NOT use them.

Pepsi Cola and APPLE iTunes go well together.
Pepsi Cola and APPLE keyboards, mice, motherboards, and all them internal parts, computers in general, monitors, printers... do NOT go well together.
WARNING: Do NOT mix Pepsi with computer parts.
And, on another thread about a dorm room "drinking incident", neither does a Mac and "barf" (as in "vomit"). Picture an iBook keyboard with wet "chunks" lying on it.

CAUTION: THIS ADVICE IS NOT BEING GIVEN BY A COMPUTER TECH
Have you read the above warning? Good, you may now read the rest of this.

A magnetic tip screwdriver has NO business being anywhere near:
• anything electronic (not the same as "electrical")
• anything with printed circuits - motherboards, ram, pci boards, etc.
• anything with a "magnetic surface" affected by magnets like floppy disks, cassette tapes (audio, VHS, Hi8, etc.)

Using a magnetic tip screwdriver with things MECHANICAL is cool, but keep them "tips" away from strong magnets -- they can attract each other ...CLANK!
• hard drives have a strong magnet on the bottom (I think? well they use to)

If you lay an old Hard Drive on top of a young VHS tape, you may ruin the tape.
Since 1964 have always kept magnetic paperclip holders far away from audio & video tape.
I have a small RED magnetic box with a tunnel for passing audio tapes through to wipe them clean--and it does a great job. It sits alone on a shelf.
Strong magnets are used to create, alter & destroy analog signals or digital data on magnetic tape and discs.

Would you lay (let it rest) a hard drive on top of a motherboard or CPU? Why?

Why would you stick any screwdriver anywhere near a delicate printed circuit, whether it is magnetic or not?

Magnetic tipped Phillips screwdrivers are perfect for taking OUT and putting IN screws around brackets, HD mounting boxes, and hard drives themselves.

Should you go sticking a Phillips tip, blade or Torx® screwdriver near anything in a Mac that is NOT a "screw"?

Did YOU answer all your questions for yourself? :p

Oh, one last thing. I'm not sure why, but
I keep my 6 magnetic tip screwdrivers together, in a clearly identifiable box, and away from those other, ordinary screwdrivers.

spaceballl

Mar 20, 2004, 05:55 AM

MacRAND

Mar 20, 2004, 09:03 AM

Hmmm interesting. So. I'm getting ready to buy my new 7200 RPM iBook hard drive. So I search pricewatch for the terms "2.5 7200" in order to limit my search to 2.5" 7200rpm drives. I expected to only see the IBM/Hitachi drive, but low and behold, there is a toshiba drive. The interesting part is that the hitachi drive has 8mb cache. The toshiba has 16mb, twice as much. Now surely this isn't that big of a difference, but has anyone heard anything about the toshiba drive? This is my first sighting of it.
-KevinKEVIN, I cannot duplicate results of your search for

2.5" 7200rpm 16MB Cache 60gb Toshiba? Instead, I can only find 10gb smaller memory of
2.5" 7200rpm 16MB Cache 50gb Toshiba which is still significant speed performance at $206 price range compared to 60gb IBM/Hitachi $212
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=2.5%22+7200rpm+toshiba+16mb&page=2&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D3dce143286e8ffad%26clickedItemRank%3D15%26userQuery %3D2.5%2522%2B7200rpm%2Btoshiba%2B16mb%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.directron.com%252Fn othardriv.html%26invocationType%3Dnext%26fromPage%3DNSCPNextPrev%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.directron.com%2Fnothardriv.html
KEVIN, please site URL to support your claim of 60gb 7200 16mb Toshiba

Stolid

Mar 20, 2004, 09:14 AM

Do exactly what he said -- pricewatch the terms 7200 2.5
www.pricewatch.com
search field is at the top
KEVIN, I cannot duplicate results of your search for

MacRAND

Mar 20, 2004, 09:35 AM

Do exactly what he said -- pricewatch the terms 7200 2.5
www.pricewatch.com
SEARCH field is at the top7200 2.5" toshiba
comes up with 60GB Hitachi/IBM but NOTHING for Toshiba!
What 60GB Toshiba 2.5" 7200rpm - can only find 50GB ??? :confused:

Why keep ASKING the same QUESTION? :confused:
Simply ANSWER the question with a specific URL :(

spaceballl

Mar 20, 2004, 06:19 PM

7200 2.5" toshiba
comes up with 60GB Hitachi/IBM but NOTHING for Toshiba!
What 60GB Toshiba 2.5" 7200rpm - can only find 50GB ??? :confused:

yeah that's it, the 50gb drive. I'm not sure if I said it was 60gb or not in an earlier post. Actually, I didn't notice until right now that it was only 50gb. Oh well i'm not that close to full on my 30gb. 20 - 30 gb doesn't really matter to me as I'm sure i'll get a new PB by the time it gets near full. I'm more concerned about performance. Anyone hear anything?
-Kevin

MacRand, did you get a chance to benchmark your system before / after the upgrade? I'm really curious about the speed boost... I can't wait! I just need to decide on the drive.

MacRAND

Mar 20, 2004, 06:32 PM

yeah that's it, the 50gb drive. I'm not sure if I said it was 60gb or not in an earlier post. Actually, I didn't notice until right now that it was only 50gb. Oh well i'm not that close to full on my 30gb. 20 - 30 gb doesn't really matter to me as I'm sure i'll get a new PB by the time it gets near full. I'm more concerned about performance. Anyone hear anything?
MacRand, did you get a chance to benchmark your system before / after the upgrade? I'm really curious about the speed boost... I can't wait! I just need to decide on the drive.Kevin
It's about a 38 to 42% boost. More than anything else, everyone who puts the Hitachi/IBM 7200 60GB drive into their BOOK says the same thing, "It just feels so much more solid, more responsive, and FAST." This is especially true when moving up from 4200 to 7200, but the difference from 5400 is very noticible too.

Unless Apple makes it an upgrade option, get whatever Apple gives you, pay $212 for the Hitachi and stick that sucker in. You can get a $49 USB 2 aluminum enclosure, or a $119 (now only $99 @ DrBot) Wiebetech FireWire800 & USB 2 box to put the old drive in. The main reason for going FW800 is looking ahead into the future by a few years when FW800 will be the SLOW interface ;)
http://www.DrBott.com
Ask yourself how long you expect to keep your toys. :p

spaceballl

Mar 20, 2004, 06:41 PM

Hmmm well this could mix things up...
http://www.seagate.com/cda/newsinfo/newsroom/releases/article/0,1121,2000,00.html

spaceballl

Mar 20, 2004, 06:45 PM

MacRAND

Mar 20, 2004, 07:43 PM

yah I can imagine that it just feels so much faster by practically doubling the speed of the HD, especially cuz mac os x caches to the disk so much. I'm just curious if anyone has actual benchmarks just to satiate my curiosity. I'll probably do it myself when i get the drive. I just have to decide which one I want :-).-KevinKevin, our G3 iBooks would NOT know what to do with a 10,000rpm 36GB or 72GB Hard Drive ported to a with an interface option of - Fibre Channel, Ultra320 SCSI and SAS.

Maybe when the G5 PowerBooks come out, depending upon their interface and configuration, the Savvio might be a viable option IF
you have $500 to $1,000 to spend on an over-kill drive for a laptop. They won't even be out until the start of Summer, and they will be priced at Introduction Prices, not tried & true possibly over-stocked we made millions of them how many do you want - prices.

But, you weren't really talking about the Seagate, were you?

Your choice is between the 50GB Toshiba, which will meet your needs very satisfactorily, and the 60GB Hitachi/IBM. So, if the Hitachi costs $212 street price and is 20% larger than the Toshiba, can you find your Toshiba for $176.66 including S&H? (That's $3.53 for each GB, when a full-size drive is only about $1 per GB)
http://www.rjross.com/toshiba1.jpgTry as I may, I could not find the 50GB Toshiba anywhere for any price, but I did find a $212 60GB Toshiba 2.5" Hard Drive - only problem is it's 4200 rpm, and they want another $9 for shipping; the dealer rated it for popularity ** out of 5. He only has 2 in stock.
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=toshiba+2.5%22+7200+rpm+hard+drive&page=1&offset=1&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D3dce143286eef1c2%26clickedItemRank%3D8%26userQuery% 3Dtoshiba%2B2.5%2522%2B7200%2Brpm%2Bhard%2Bdrive%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.rjross.co m%252Fharddrv.html%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DAppleTop%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rjross.com%2Fharddrv.html

spaceballl

Mar 20, 2004, 10:02 PM

MacRAND

Mar 21, 2004, 01:00 AM

Here are the two drives i'm deciding between:
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=AA25180
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?&scriteria=AA22680
Price isn't an issue and neither is capacity. I'm interested in power drain, noise, and speed. I can't find any info.
-Kevin
Speed is my bigger concern, but 8mb more cache doesn't necessarily mean a faster drive. There are so many components. I wish i could find some performance numbers.For you and your needs, what kind of speed is a factor, crunching numbers or moving data? Answering that question should help you decide on the efficacy of 8 vs. 16 MB cache.

Thanks for the URLs. Congratulations, you found your Toshiba 50Gb with 16 MB cache (highest I've ever seen), which by GB : $ is not even in the same ballpark with the Hitachi, but the extra size Cache has to be it's saving grace. How are you going to benchmark the differences in cache, as applied to your computer use?

So, is it worth it to you to overpay in $$ per GB just so you can get double the amount of cache from 8 to 16? Hard to answer - up to you.

Unlike you, I'm starting to push the limit of my 30GB drive and need to double the size to 60. And, I don't do anything on my iBook that demands that much cache. Disc rotation speed will help in startup / shutdown and CPU intensive tasking. Having roots in a 16MHz MacLC in 1991, I know my Dual 1GHz G4 is really fast enough for everything except occasional video editing and DVD burning. I don't game...except Solitaire using Ultimate from DeltaTao.com. So getting a G5 is a pure luxury I would WANT far more than I really NEED.
From a practical standpoint, the same is true with my G3 iBook - max RAM, perfect pixel LCD, good AirPort reception, a faster, larger Hard Drive, what else could a guy want...or, need!

And, at $600 in realistic value (even "replacement"), if it gets lost or stolen, I buy a new one and move on with my life. If (when) I max out a 15" PB and BTO, that's $3,000+ tied up in a 1" wider screen, and superb good looks and performance. :D

iBook owners have 90% (loose statistics) of what a PB owners really USE day-to-day, and without 5x the cost. Would I like to have all the added capability including a "built-in SuperDrive" and FW800? Sure...I just don't feel comfortable dumping a fully functional $600 G3 iBook that does everything I need it to do, for a $3,000 mobile dream machine.
WANT vs. NEED. I have exactly what I NEED. How about you?

Now, when the 2nd generation G5 PowerBook comes along boasting 6-hour batteries and built-in color laser printer (I can dream can't I ?), and FinalCut Pro 6 is out, maybe it will be time. Yes, it will absolutely be time. In the meantime, I love the size and capability of my G3 iBook, and the way PC and Mac users look at it with admiration (except, of course, Mac PB G4 owners - because they do have a right to be proud in their books).

Because S&H is FREE with NewEgg.com and ZipZoomFly.com, shipping costs put MWAVE $5 on the "high side" on purchase of a Hitachi drive.

I am totally content to keep on keeping on with my current iBook until just the right moment, when moving up to a new PB will feel sooooo perfect. :cool:

spaceballl

Mar 25, 2004, 02:23 AM

So... I decided to go with the 16mb cache drive just because of the following:
1. I like trying things that people haven't tried before
2. I need some more HD space, but once 20 - 30 gigs more is really the same to me. I just need like 10 more so the difference in size is negligible.
3. I favor speed over capacity.

Wish me luck!!!

just ordered it.

-Kevin

lasuther

Mar 25, 2004, 08:12 AM

Fat Tony

Apr 20, 2004, 10:48 AM

I'd like to hear how the new drives are running. I'm having serious thoughts of doing the upgrade.

MacRAND

Apr 20, 2004, 11:04 AM

I'd like to hear how the new drives are running. I'm having serious thoughts of doing the upgrade.The Travelstar runs FAST, cool, smooth, and quietly. Although I installed it myself, had a problem I had to get repaired by Apple Tech, otherwise, everything is excellet. Very VERY impressed with net speed, snappy, responsiveness. Kind of like putting a smooth V-10 engine in a VW Bug - OH, the power.
The difference for my iBook, is that I hardly notice it is there.

Put old HD in 2.5" enclosure by Wiebetech bought from DrBott
http://www.DrBott.com

keysersoze

Apr 20, 2004, 12:31 PM

The Travelstar runs FAST, cool, smooth, and quietly. Although I installed it myself, had a problem I had to get repaired by Apple Tech, otherwise, everything is excellet. Very VERY impressed with net speed, snappy, responsiveness. Kind of like putting a smooth V-10 engine in a VW Bug - OH, the power.
The difference for my iBook, is that I hardly notice it is there.

Put old HD in 2.5" enclosure by Wiebetech bought from DrBott
http://www.DrBott.com

MacRand-- Did you wind up videotaping the entire "procedure"? Did it help you in your time of crisis? What was the problem you encountered along the way? Do you still have the HD replacement tech-guide that you asked for? I am seriously contemplating this and your lengthy discussions in this thread have made me more aware of my need vs. want issues. Would you be willing to provide said tech-guide? Thanks for all of your info... I am happy to hear the drive has not fried your mobo.

:)

MacRAND

Apr 20, 2004, 12:43 PM

MacRand-- Did you wind up videotaping the entire "procedure"? NO

Did it help you in your time of crisis? DIGITAL PHOTOS WERE SOME HELP BUT THE CAMERA I HAD AT THE TIME WAS A BOX KODAK AND DID NOT FOCUS PROPERLY, SO IMAGES WERE OF MARGINAL VALUE TO ME

What was the problem you encountered along the way?
IN THE END, I DISCOVERED I HAD PULLED FLAT CABLE LEADING FROM TOUCHPAD TO MOTHERBOARD OUT, HAD TO PAY TO GET IT SOLDERED BACK INTO MOBO, WORKS FINE NOW.
NOW BUILT-IN MICROPHONE DOES NOT WORK, NO CLUE WHY???

Do you still have the HD replacement tech-guide that you asked for?
NEVER BOUGHT ONE FOR $10 SUPPOSEDLY AVAILABLE ON EBAY.
OTHER INSTRUCTIONS ONLY MILDLY HELPFUL.

I am seriously contemplating this and your lengthy discussions in this thread have made me more aware of my need vs. want issues.
Would you be willing to provide said tech-guide? YES IF I HAD ONE, BUT I DON'T. CHECK WITH
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com
AND SEE WHAT YOU CAN FIND CURRENTLY.
Thanks for all of your info. :)END RESULT IS iBOOK CASE NO LONGER FITS SUPER TIGHT, IT'S OK BUT LOOSE BECAUSE I TORE IT APART AND IT'S NO LONGER IN ORIGINAL CONDITION.
I'M OK WITH THIS BECAUSE THE 700MHZ iBOOK IS OLD.
I WOULD NOT DO THIS MYSELF TO A NEW G4 iBOOK OR POWERBOOK, I'D PAY A TECH.

I did have fun tearing it apart, seeing how it's put together and how it works and all fits together, got most of the screws back in the right holes (had 3 left??? and had to get 1 new screw I knew I needed).
I don't regret spending the half day doing it, but
I'd pay to have it done on any new PowerBook or iBook.
My combo drive was already partially defective and I had hoped to improve it, but it's unchanged.

What did I learn?
1. Apple should make this Hitachi/IBM Travelstar 7200rpm/60GB drive available as a BTO option because it really works great and has significantly improved the operation of my iBook on a daily basis without burdening the battery.
2. Adding this drive is a significant improvement.
3. Pay a qualified Apple Tech to install it for you.

POST SCRIPT:
This is a very VERY popular subject and procedure.
Besides what you see online within this thread, I've received numerous emails & private messages on the subject, which is why I've become so open about my difficulties, successes, and experience.
It's embarrassing to admit failure... falling short of perfection, even though the installation and current operation is proving to be a success.

I am not a techie, I'm a retired attorney who loves computers and is somewhat mechanically inclined, and unbelievably curious and adventurous, and sometimes reckless. I knew I could do the installation, but I was always worried about damaging the mobo, a circuit, a wire, or stripping a thread, or missing a screw. I did ok. I would not do it again to a Mac I treasured because now I know how lucky I was to do it as well as I did.

If you do this, you will need some jeweler's tools - Sears has an excellent set of 12 tiny screwdrivers for only $20 Craftsman 12 pc. Screwdriver Set, Micro Tech Precision with Storage Pouch (http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?vertical=TOOL&pid=00945736000&bidsite=&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes)
http://content.sears.com/data/product_images/009/45736/00945736000-dlv.jpg

I also used a small magnetic tipped Phillips screwdriver to retrieve screws from difficult places and to help start them back in their holes, and was very careful about what I touched the magnetic tip to.

I should have had a Jeweler's magnifying glass headset to see better because everything is so microscopic

SpiicyTuna

May 7, 2004, 10:30 PM

END RESULT IS iBOOK CASE NO LONGER FITS SUPER TIGHT, IT'S OK BUT LOOSE BECAUSE I TORE IT APART AND IT'S NO LONGER IN ORIGINAL CONDITION.
I'M OK WITH THIS BECAUSE THE 700MHZ iBOOK IS OLD.
I WOULD NOT DO THIS MYSELF TO A NEW G4 iBOOK OR POWERBOOK, I'D PAY A TECH.

How loose does your case fit? I did this swap today and my case looks like the day I bough it; plus or minus a few minor scuffs from regular use before the swap. I found the swap to be painless, and took approx 2.5 hours. Maybe I was less frightened to attach the project?!? Everything works great and I would highly recommend this to anyone. . . . . if your local I would even do it for you for a minor cost.

One question for MacRAND: did you notice that your wristpad became slightly warmer after the upgrade? I am trying to figure out if its just my imagination. . . . .