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View Full Version : Man Killed During Masonic Initiation


eyelikeart
Mar 9, 2004, 08:00 PM
I know Mr. A, Moxie & Evo can attest to my almost lack of surprise something weird happened here, but read on.

story here (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040309/ap_on_re_us/fatal_ceremony_7)

miloblithe
Mar 9, 2004, 08:25 PM
Didn't Joseph Smith copy Mason innitiation rights for mormonism?

Sounds like fun.

TEG
Mar 9, 2004, 08:32 PM
It strange to think some lodges do such stupid things. It is not part of any meaningful ritual, so why was it happening. I think there will be an internal investigation, coming from the Grand Lodge. Hopefully whomever came up with this "scare tatic" and the guy who fired the gun will be excommunicated. That what I'm hoping for.

TEG

TEG
Mar 9, 2004, 08:35 PM
Didn't Joseph Smith copy Mason innitiation rights for mormonism?

Sounds like fun.

Actually he just took some of the ritual. Lets hope other sects don't take this one.

TEG

Mr. Anderson
Mar 9, 2004, 08:58 PM
Sounds like old fraternity guys trying to scare plebes....and the initiate was 47 :rolleyes:

Yeah, they're going to have a bunch of issues with this. But given the secrecy surrounding the Masons (my grandfather was one) I have to wonder how much things will be investigated there and in other lodges...

Any one read Dan Brown's Angels and Demons :D

D

mactastic
Mar 9, 2004, 09:27 PM
Wow, that's pretty stupid. I bet that guy feels like a dumbass now. The living one I mean. THINK before you pull a gun. Espescially when you are carrying two that are similar and one is being used to scare somebody not kill them and the other is being used to kill people. Probably in the same pocket too. Dumbass.

wdlove
Mar 9, 2004, 09:27 PM
Well they scared him alright, his death. My father was a Mason. The only thing that I remember about his membership was his ring. At Christmas time my father would take me to their party. Santa Claus was a guest.

I can't imagine why they would us a gun. You would think they would try to be be imaginative.

ExoticFish
Mar 9, 2004, 11:34 PM
jeez, my uncle is a mason and i've always wondered what kind of wierd things they got going on... now i know.

MrMacMan
Mar 9, 2004, 11:46 PM
Ouch... What a silly way to die...

Feel bad... kinda.

TEG
Mar 10, 2004, 03:15 AM
jeez, my uncle is a mason and i've always wondered what kind of wierd things they got going on... now i know.

No you don't.

Masonic customs are about helping out your fellow man. Not shooting him in the head, nor pretending to shoot him with a blank gun. What ever lodge this was, I can guarentee a discussion will be held about them in every lodge around the word. I certainly hope the Local Grand Lodge has someone excommunicated, or the lodge closed.

TEG

Savage Henry
Mar 10, 2004, 03:43 AM
Masonry has been around for absolutely years, probably longer than the .38 calibre gun that was used. So I reckon that this "traditional" part of the initiation ceremony was not there at the beginning and added at a later date because some jerk thought it was a laugh.

It's all a shame.

alset
Mar 10, 2004, 06:45 AM
Honestly, I don't trust Masons any more than I trust Skull and Bones or the guys with the fez. I've heard a lot of strange stories about groups like these. I don't have an issue with them, something just doesn't sit right with me about them.

Tragic that this would happen, but what was the shooter thinking carrying two guns? Sounds fishy....

Dan

virividox
Mar 10, 2004, 06:48 AM
ouch. gosh why cant they just have secret hand shakes...the whole gun bit is over the top

JesseJames
Mar 10, 2004, 08:02 AM
I figured the initiation was lying on a bed of nails and having someone break cinderblocks on your chest with a sledgehammer. Makes sense huh? Being masons and all.

miloblithe
Mar 10, 2004, 08:14 AM
No you don't.

Masonic customs are about helping out your fellow man. Not shooting him in the head, nor pretending to shoot him with a blank gun.

TEG

That may well be, but what about helping your fellow man requires doing it in a secret society with secret innitiation rites?

Answer: nothing.

hvfsl
Mar 10, 2004, 08:16 AM
No you don't.

Masonic customs are about helping out your fellow man. Not shooting him in the head, nor pretending to shoot him with a blank gun. What ever lodge this was, I can guarentee a discussion will be held about them in every lodge around the word. I certainly hope the Local Grand Lodge has someone excommunicated, or the lodge closed.

TEG

No its not, I have met a UK ex-mason and when you get to a certain level in the organisation, you find out what they are really about. They are nothing more than a social club that worships satan. I am glad they are becoming less and less important now, since people used to find it hard to get high up jobs without being a mason.

Thomas Veil
Mar 10, 2004, 09:05 AM
Why in the hell would you carry a fake gun and a real one? This guy clearly wasn't clicking on all cylinders.

God forgive me, it reminds me of the scene in "The Return of the Pink Panther" where Chief Inspector Dreyfus tries to light his cigarette with a "cigarette lighter gun" and accidentally shoots his nose off.

macphisto
Mar 10, 2004, 10:20 AM
**Deleted my response to keep this thread from shooting off on a tangent.

JeffTL
Mar 10, 2004, 10:28 AM
As far as I have heard this is VERY nonstandard; don't Freemasons usually just threaten to impale initiates with a geometers' compass as part of the ritual?

TEG
Mar 10, 2004, 10:54 AM
No its not, I have met a UK ex-mason and when you get to a certain level in the organisation, you find out what they are really about. They are nothing more than a social club that worships satan. I am glad they are becoming less and less important now, since people used to find it hard to get high up jobs without being a mason.


That statement is so full of crap, I had to plug my nose. I am a Mason, and can tell you without a doubt that in all reality, nothing about Freemasonry is Secret. You see it everyday, comments like "Don't give me the third degree" come directly from Masonry. Masonry is not really a secret society, nor is there any "agenda", Masons are nothing more that a large multi-national, multi-culturial, mulit-religious Fraternity. There are only 3 criteria to be a Mason (which hold true in most Countries, with the notable exception of France) 1) Be a Freeborn Male, 2) Believe in a Deity (God, Buda, Allah, etc.), and 3) Be willing to join of your own free will.

Some of the greatest Men throughout history have been Masons, Including most of the Founding Fathers of the United States. However, there I will not sit here and say that every Mason is a good man, or that I agree with the belifs of every Mason out there, but if I was up against a wall, there is no one I'd rather have by my side supporting me than an Brethern.

Also, for more information, that is rational and tempered, check out the Wikipedia Article on Freemasonry Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry)

I am also willing to have a dialog about this, but don't just jump to conclusions based to myth and ignorance. As I have said, I don't agree with the ceremony that was being performed, and hope someone gets in trouble from the inside.

TEG

hvfsl
Mar 10, 2004, 11:22 AM
That statement is so full of crap, I had to plug my nose. I am a Mason, and can tell you without a doubt that in all reality, nothing about Freemasonry is Secret. You see it everyday, comments like "Don't give me the third degree" come directly from Masonry. Masonry is not really a secret society, nor is there any "agenda", Masons are nothing more that a large multi-national, multi-culturial, mulit-religious Fraternity. There are only 3 criteria to be a Mason (which hold true in most Countries, with the notable exception of France) 1) Be a Freeborn Male, 2) Believe in a Deity (God, Buda, Allah, etc.), and 3) Be willing to join of your own free will.

Some of the greatest Men throughout history have been Masons, Including most of the Founding Fathers of the United States. However, there I will not sit here and say that every Mason is a good man, or that I agree with the belifs of every Mason out there, but if I was up against a wall, there is no one I'd rather have by my side supporting me than an Brethern.

Also, for more information, that is rational and tempered, check out the Wikipedia Article on Freemasonry Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry)

I am also willing to have a dialog about this, but don't just jump to conclusions based to myth and ignorance. As I have said, I don't agree with the ceremony that was being performed, and hope someone gets in trouble from the inside.

TEG

I believe the person I met more than you, a person I have never met. He said that when you reach the top of the masons, you find out that you are actually worshipping satan. This is not common knowledge amoung lower order masons, so thats why you probably dont know about it. I cant remember exactly what he said (was a few years ago now), but he said something about swearing an oath to the evening star, and thoughout history, the evening star has meant the devil. (or it could have been the morning star, cant quite remember, but I remeber he said they were basically swearing an oath to the devil).

Now you may be a decent citizen, but I am just saying what he said. You may say that you dont agree with the ceremony, but it goes on a lot (especially in the UK). And any group of people that uses fear as part of a ceremony cant be doing much good in the world.

Also I dont believe masons have any agenda of world domination of anything silly like that, I just think it is nothing more than a private social club with odd beliefs.

Edit: I read the article you posted, it just makes me beleive even more in what I heard was the truth.

wdlove
Mar 10, 2004, 11:22 AM
I think that the gun issue is just an aberation by one individual. He just got carried away and did a stupid thing. Hopefully it wont harm the good work that the Mason's are doing.

ExoticFish
Mar 10, 2004, 11:23 AM
That statement is so full of crap, I had to plug my nose. I am a Mason, and can tell you without a doubt that in all reality, nothing about Freemasonry is Secret. You see it everyday, comments like "Don't give me the third degree" come directly from Masonry. Masonry is not really a secret society, nor is there any "agenda", Masons are nothing more that a large multi-national, multi-culturial, mulit-religious Fraternity. There are only 3 criteria to be a Mason (which hold true in most Countries, with the notable exception of France) 1) Be a Freeborn Male, 2) Believe in a Deity (God, Buda, Allah, etc.), and 3) Be willing to join of your own free will.

Some of the greatest Men throughout history have been Masons, Including most of the Founding Fathers of the United States. However, there I will not sit here and say that every Mason is a good man, or that I agree with the belifs of every Mason out there, but if I was up against a wall, there is no one I'd rather have by my side supporting me than an Brethern.

Also, for more information, that is rational and tempered, check out the Wikipedia Article on Freemasonry Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry)

I am also willing to have a dialog about this, but don't just jump to conclusions based to myth and ignorance. As I have said, I don't agree with the ceremony that was being performed, and hope someone gets in trouble from the inside.

TEG

i've just never been able to figure out what the point of things like this are. these groups and fraternitys... i dunno, can you shed some light on what makes them so good? i mean if i was up against a wall i'd rather have a friend, a family member, heck even my AAA membership will get me out of a bunch of different kinds of binds. not trying to flame here i just don't understand.

TEG
Mar 10, 2004, 11:40 AM
i've just never been able to figure out what the point of things like this are. these groups and fraternitys... i dunno, can you shed some light on what makes them so good? i mean if i was up against a wall i'd rather have a friend, a family member, heck even my AAA membership will get me out of a bunch of different kinds of binds. not trying to flame here i just don't understand.

It is nice to have a network of people, around the world, whom you can lean on in case of a crisis. Its also nice to find a group of people with similar beliefs, morals, and ideas, something hard to find in the rest of society.

hvfsl... Having had deep conversations with Masons from 3rd to 33rd Degrees (33 being the highest level able to be held), I can tell you with out a doubt that the person you spoke to is either a) Trying to scare you, b) Has a grudge against the Masons (the largest source of false information is from former members) or c) Part of one of the Splinter groups that have perverted the ideals for their own use.
I'm just saying that, through all my research, coupled with the knowledge gathered by asking such questions, that your 'friend' is wrong.

As I said earlier, all the ritual, ceremony, and beliefs (and I do mean ALL) are availible for anyone to view, all you need to do is to do some research. I gathered data for 3 years on Masonry before deciding to Join, that is the basis of my 'arguement'.

TEG

poopyhead
Mar 10, 2004, 11:57 AM
How can chubby middle-aged men in little go-carts be evil?
I simply don't see it.

I thought Mason initiation was all about falling ~3 feet as a trust thing
then pretending to be dead so as to be ritually risen, in a non evil way, so as to start your life anew in the brotherhood of the Masons

Didn't they grow out of the knights templar a strange but christian, certainly not satanic, organization?

Mr. Anderson
Mar 10, 2004, 12:04 PM
I live in Old Town Alexandria and like eyelikeart mentioned, he's not surprised about the weirdness of Masons since for last year's Geekfest I suggested that they all take a tour of George Washington Masonic Memorial (http://www.gwmemorial.org) . Needless to say they came away a bit amused. And I recommend the tour for anyone visiting the area, it is without a doubt one of the more unique things in the area. And it has a great view for the little time they allow you outside on the observation deck.

There are lots of conspiracies associated with the Masons, Knights Templar, Shiners, etc. As for the initiation, it sounds much more like bad university fraternity hazing.

And how do you become an ex-mason, btw? You have all sorts of info on the 'secrets' yet are you still bound by the oaths?

D

TEG
Mar 10, 2004, 12:49 PM
How can chubby middle-aged men in little go-carts be evil?
I simply don't see it.

I thought Mason initiation was all about falling ~3 feet as a trust thing
then pretending to be dead so as to be ritually risen, in a non evil way, so as to start your life anew in the brotherhood of the Masons

Didn't they grow out of the knights templar a strange but christian, certainly not satanic, organization?

Sound like you have done some research. Yes you are right about the Middle Pargraph. However, the "Shriners" are the "chubby middle-aged men in little go-carts" which is an North American Masonic organization, and run a buch of Children's Burn and Orthopedic Hospitals in the US and Canada.

You are also kind of right about the Knights Templar, they actuall came from Masons via the Catholic Church to Protect The Vatican, and participated in the Crusades.

Mr. Anderson - You can become an ex(communicated)-mason when you are ousted from the "craft". You can do this by revealing the protected secrets, or breaking any of the tenants of Masonry, which you learn durring degree ceramonies. There is a judicial process that can look over cases and hold hearing on a punishment.

TEG

Mr. Anderson
Mar 10, 2004, 01:26 PM
The Knights Templar are an ancient order of Knights that arose during the crusades but were all rounded up and killed by the French King for their money. It all started with the arrest of the French Knights by Philip the Fair on Friday the 13th of October 1307. What followed was a set of accusations against the brethren of the order. This set of accusations was similar to that used against the Cathars before them and would be used by the Inquisition against the poor peasants of Medieval Europe accused of being Witches.

That's where the onus on Friday the 13th comes in. :D

Masons and Knights Templar are somewhat related, although there are other groups affiliated with the name and have nothing to do with the Masons directly.

Go to http://www.templarhistory.com/ to find out more if you're curious.

D

eyelikeart
Mar 10, 2004, 01:35 PM
I live in Old Town Alexandria and like eyelikeart mentioned, he's not surprised about the weirdness of Masons since for last year's Geekfest I suggested that they all take a tour of George Washington Masonic Memorial (http://www.gwmemorial.org) . Needless to say they came away a bit amused. And I recommend the tour for anyone visiting the area, it is without a doubt one of the more unique things in the area. And it has a great view for the little time they allow you outside on the observation deck.

It truly is beautiful to see. It's just that end part where they do this media presentation that kinda made me feel weird about the whole thing.

hvfsl
Mar 10, 2004, 04:31 PM
It is nice to have a network of people, around the world, whom you can lean on in case of a crisis. Its also nice to find a group of people with similar beliefs, morals, and ideas, something hard to find in the rest of society.

hvfsl... Having had deep conversations with Masons from 3rd to 33rd Degrees (33 being the highest level able to be held), I can tell you with out a doubt that the person you spoke to is either a) Trying to scare you, b) Has a grudge against the Masons (the largest source of false information is from former members) or c) Part of one of the Splinter groups that have perverted the ideals for their own use.
I'm just saying that, through all my research, coupled with the knowledge gathered by asking such questions, that your 'friend' is wrong.

As I said earlier, all the ritual, ceremony, and beliefs (and I do mean ALL) are availible for anyone to view, all you need to do is to do some research. I gathered data for 3 years on Masonry before deciding to Join, that is the basis of my 'arguement'.

TEG

When I saw a program on TV about the masons, one of the things they had to do to join, was kiss a skull (although I dont think it was a real skull). I was wondering if you did that or you know people that do?

And the reason the person left is because he became a christain and did not agree with what the masons stood for.

TEG
Mar 10, 2004, 04:49 PM
No, I did not kiss a skull, nor is that one of the ritual, at least not for Freemasonry. I will admit that I am not all that familar with Ancient Freemasonry (Actually newer than Freemasonry). Most of the ritual is the same, and most of the differences are in language.

There is no anamosity between the two, just it is different when one is not used to the procedure. Both exist in the US, usually confined to a whole state, but there are unique situations were an AF&AM Lodge exists in the same state as F&AM lodges (Acient Free and Accepted Masons & Free and Accepted Masons respectivly).

TEG

Frohickey
Mar 10, 2004, 04:55 PM
That may well be, but what about helping your fellow man requires doing it in a secret society with secret innitiation rites?

Answer: nothing.

Doesn't matter. A private group can do anything it its members want, and they do not have to answer to anyone outside of the group, UNLESS A CRIME happens. In this case, turns out it was an accident.

If they wanted to scare someone, couldn't they have just asked Janet Reno to appear before the man in a bikini? Oh wait, that would be worse. :o

TEG
Mar 10, 2004, 05:56 PM
Doesn't matter. A private group can do anything it its members want, and they do not have to answer to anyone outside of the group, UNLESS A CRIME happens. In this case, turns out it was an accident.

If they wanted to scare someone, couldn't they have just asked Janet Reno to appear before the man in a bikini? Oh wait, that would be worse. :o

Exactly.

Yea Janet Reno would be scarry. It would be worse if s/he was in Lengurie (sp?) and threating to have sex with you.

TEG

poopyhead
Mar 10, 2004, 06:11 PM
see below, was so excited I posted it twice?

poopyhead
Mar 10, 2004, 06:12 PM
Exactly.

Yea Janet Reno would be scarry. It would be worse if s/he was in Lengurie (sp?) and threating to have sex with you.

TEG

with her deep grumbly voice, wild eyes, and swagger I think she would be a tiger. For some reason I can only picture her in a slightly off kilter leather boost-te-a (can't spell so I'm relying on phonetics) and tan velcro hushpuppies. :D

mactastic
Mar 10, 2004, 06:35 PM
I thought involuntary manslaughter (http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m011.htm) WAS a crime.

Frohickey
Mar 10, 2004, 06:55 PM
I thought involuntary manslaughter (http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m011.htm) WAS a crime.

It is. Who knows what will happen in the course of the trial, if it goes to trial.

Plus, its kinda a bummer on your recruitment and membership efforts if your potential initiants are off-ed. ;)