Apple vs. French Tax

[MacRumors]

AP News reports that French music rights holders may take legal action against Apple for unpaid levies on the iPod.

Hard drive players in France are expected to pay taxes based on their size. A top of the line iPod would be expected to pay $20 euros per sale. The proceeds go to musicians and "other rights holders" who may lose money to piracy. Similar levies are placed on blank media in other countries.

This report claims that Apple has no plans to pay the tax

[cubist]

Pretty hefty tax... When is it supposed to be collected? Who is supposed to collect it? How much, if any, actually makes it to the musicians - and how much goes to support bloated burocracy?

[AirUncleP]

Viva la France......NOT!!!!

[Mudbug]

I wonder what would happen if I decided to just not pay my taxes this year...
I'd say "Hey - they didn't want to, so they didn't..." and point to this, although I think the IRS auditor might not care so much about the corporate precedent.

Anyone care to try it and report back? I'd do it (sure... right... whatever ;)) but I've already done my taxes for this year. Oh well - there's always next year, right?

[billyboy]

So Apple like the revenue from 20000 iPods but they dont like to pay taxes. Tell us something we dont know.

[nighthawk]

So, if the iPod was not able to play music, then it would not be affected by the tax law right? That is just unfair. It doesn't seem that computers are affected, and they play MP3's, or are they next?

[Koodauw]

Nothing like turning up your nose to the French. I love it!

[crazytom]

Interesting....

So, in France, since one must pay a tax on all blank media, it's OK to pirate music and movies?

[littlejim]

There are now three certainties in life : death, taxes and this thread being shut down within 24 hours :)

[blackfox]

I do not know what to think of this...it seems unfair to tax a storage device because of a *possibility* of it being used to store illegally obtained material...does this tax apply to computers also?(which contain HDs). While I respect the rights of artists to due compensation, this seems to punish all for the actions of a few. I do not know the argument(s) Apple may use to justify its' non-compliance, but I feel that for now, they should pay up-fair policy or not. It seems ironic, as Apple is on the forefront of offering legal music downloads(although I guess ITMS Europe is not up yet...) What can you say about the French-I both admire and detest them (something I learned from an English upbringing) I suppose a roughly 4% tax is not that bad, but Apple products are so expensive already (especially outside of US)...anyone else?

[JohnGillilan]

Freedom fries anybody??? :)

[soosy]

U.S. has a "tax" on media too... e.g. the stupid CD-R's labeled for "For Audio" versus "For Data".

Taxing media is stupid for multiple reasons... but if they're gonna have it, it should then at least be legal to "share" music and download it off the Internet.

blah. blah. blah, I'm sure these forums have heard this all before.

p.s. I'm an American who has no reason to dislike the French.

[MacsRgr8]

There are now three certainties in life : death, taxes and this thread being shut down within 24 hours :)

:D

"Merde..."

[j33pd0g]

Does Apple have a store in France? If not, wouldn't it be the job of the reseller to charge the tax? The number of iPod's bought from Apple's web store by the French can't be that big.

[Sayer]

I thought big Liberals (like Steve Jobs) always insisted that the "rich" and "corporations" pay taxes above all others.

It couldn't possibly be that what they say doesn't actually apply to Liberal Corporations?!

[MacKenzie999]

I believe Apple sent this tax payment well in advance, it was being transported on a Greenpeace boat but then the lovable french sank it.

[wHo_tHe]

SF Gate (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/03/10/financial0938EST0045.DTL) reports that French music rights holders may take legal action against Apple for unpaid taxes on the iPod.
Not to nitpick, but this is an AP story merely posted by SF Gate... My colleagues and I at the AP work hard to report the news each day and just wanted the attribution to be clear.

[Steven1621]

I thought big Liberals (like Steve Jobs) always insisted that the "rich" and "corporations" pay taxes above all others.

It couldn't possibly be that what they say doesn't actually apply to Liberal Corporations?!

money always seems to trump morals in business

[seyo]

are comments like "freedom fries" and "effin frogs" etc. They dont advance any kind of intelligent ideas on the subject, which is Apple not abiding by the laws in one of its markets.

The questions raised by some of the more intelligent posters on this board are very interesting: any computer medium has the potential to store music, so therefore any storage medium could be subjected to this tax right? Well, the iPod is SPECIFICALLY marketed as PRIMARILY a music storage and playback device, while any old HD, while having that capability, isnt marketed as such. I believe that this law could therefore be fought in court and defeated.

[elmimmo]

Of course Apple will not pay the taxes, the user will. We always do. This time, though, new users only.

> So, in France, since one must pay a tax on all blank media, it's OK to pirate music and movies?

I guess the case is similar to Spain's. Here a sick law states the concept of "private copy", by which it is explicitely assumed that each time you copy an audiovisual piece that you legally acquired and own (for example in order to hear a CD you just bought in your iPod), its authors loose one possible additional sale. Because of that, users, although legally entitled to make copies of audiovisual pieces they have BOUGHT once, have to pay a tax to the Spanish SGAE (Association of Authors and Editors at http://www.sage.es ) in the concept of author's rights, when they buy the equipment and media they are going to make the copy with. What is more sick is that the law explicitely states that copying foreign works is also taxed in favor of an association of Spanish authors.

The law, though, is very vague on expliciting the support to be taxed. I read once in an article describing the law (not in the law itself), that basically, the law's definition of taxable media covered every susceptible media of being destined to copy audiovisual works. Photocopiers, VCRs, tape recorders, audio tapes, videocasettes, etc have that tax. Only until some months ago, optical media was free of that tax (because it was considered, I believe, that it primary use was not that of copying copyrighted audiovisual media, except for Audio CD-R). Now CDs and DVDs are being taxed also, prices have rosen considerably and the debate has exploded. But if that interpretation of the law is correct (which I do not know), they are not adding tax into paper and pencils because they do not want, not because they cannot. There are other media (not exclusively) used to make legal "private copies" of audiovisual media that do not have a tax yet, such as hard disk drives (mp3 players, though, have that tax I believe), but SGAE has publicly expressed the intention to push for those too.

[Stella]

There seems to be a fair amount of french bashing.. quite unfairly

Lots of countries have taxes on recordable media, including the US. Because the french have it, this makes only the french wrong?

Apple clearly think they are above french law.. which they are not. If you trade in a country, you have to abide by their laws, or don't trade at all. Whether the tax is fair or not irrelevent, you must abide by local laws.

I wouldn't be surprised if French order all iPods off the shevles. Then apple would rethink their position.

For all you US people... what would you think of an non US company refusing to pay US taxes? You'd probably say "who the f?ck do they think they are.. not paying US taxes" etc etc.

So, before French bashing, apply the apple case to your particular country and see how it fits then. Remember - you country probably has a TAX or levy on recordable media.

[ryanw]

The iPod should not have to pay the piracy taxes like CD's or other media would mostly because you cannot copy music from the ipod like you can from normal CD Media. It is not easy for a basic consumer to copy music to an ipod, goto a friend's house and copy the music from the ipod onto their computer.

This is the reason apple made the ipod a 1 way transfer using the standard programs (iTunes). of course you can use 3rd party programs and hacks to copy the stuff off ... but thats probably against some sort of license agreement or something.

here are some steps to backup your iPod music (Use at own risk):

# cd /Volumes/<insert ipod folder here>
# mkdir ~/Desktop/ipod_backup
# sh
# IFS="
"
# for FILE in `find . -type f -name '*.mp3'`
do
cp "$FILE" ~/Desktop/ipod_backup
echo "Backedup $FILE"
done
# for FILE in `find . -type f -name '*.m4p'`
do
cp "$FILE" ~/Desktop/ipod_backup
echo "Backedup $FILE"
done

[beefstu01]

Just to be a lil' dumb@ss...

How can Apple pay 20 dollar-euros? New currency?

/being dumb

[sinisterdesign]

APPLE REFUSES TO PAY MUSIC TAX....FRANCE SURRENDERS.

[elmimmo]

For all you US people... what would you think of an non US company refusing to pay US taxes?

I think the only reason why Apple is in trouble is because of already sold iPods, because in the end, users (be them from the USA, France, Spain or wherever) are usually the ones paying both their own taxes (which the law dictates) and corporation's taxes, through a rise in prices or cut in features.

For example, lots and lots of DV cameras that in the US have both IN and OUT Firewire connectors, are only OUT in the same model being marketed in Europe to avoid this kind of tax we are talking about (since they cannot record input signals they cannot be used as a video recorder to duplicate copyrighted works). That stupid European law's intention I do not know what it is. Probably is either to compensate authors for lack of possible revenues, or a way to protect the European industry of audiovisual equipment manufacturing. In the end it is only damaging european end users.

But I do agree this is another debate not relevant to Apple's intention of abiding to the law (or lack of).

[beefstu01]

APPLE REFUSES TO PAY MUSIC TAX....FRANCE SURRENDERS.

It's a trap!

[bunkre]

this is the first i've heard of these laws... makes me happy here in the US both the gov't and the recording industry are so damn behind on the issue that they still think charging over $20 a CD is the answer...

and as for the 'french bashing' in this topic, i'm pretty sure its just people being sarcastic about the whole "freedom fries" b.s. that popped up last year. i guess sarcasm doesn't travel well on the net. i can't imagine too many bush votes in an apple discussion board for some reason...

[iggyb]

are comments like "freedom fries" and "effin frogs" etc. They dont advance any kind of intelligent ideas on the subject, which is Apple not abiding by the laws in one of its markets.

The questions raised by some of the more intelligent posters on this board are very interesting: any computer medium has the potential to store music, so therefore any storage medium could be subjected to this tax right? Well, the iPod is SPECIFICALLY marketed as PRIMARILY a music storage and playback device, while any old HD, while having that capability, isnt marketed as such. I believe that this law could therefore be fought in court and defeated.

Yes, a music storage device that's used to play legally downloaded music, as well as legitimate music burned from CDs that you bought. It's stupid to tax storage devices. Do they tax headphones? Do they tax blank CDs? (wait, I guess they do tax blank CDs....nevermind).

However, if Apple knew that going in, then they should probably pony up the dough.

[claytonbench]

This is so stupid. Apple is a U.S. based corporation and has no tax liability in france or any other country. What are they going to do? Close them down!

[Quark]

It is important to understand that it is the French socialist government that is under attack here and the French "leaders"

It should not be the people.

I think in these discussions it is important to make that distinction.

I don't think that the French government speaks for the people -- similar to other socialist governments.

Just wanted to get in on this one. Haven't posted in a long while.

Take Care,
Quark

[elmimmo]

The iPod should not have to pay the piracy taxes like CD's or other media would mostly because you cannot copy music from the ipod like you can from normal CD Media.

Those are NOT taxes to lighten piracy effects. This whole issue ha nothing to do with piracy (if that law is similar to Spain's). Those are taxes to relieve a decrease of potential sales when making LEGAL copies of copyrighted works.

Besides, the tax applies to the DESTINATION media, not to the source. Because of that, it is irrelevant how easy/difficult it is to copy copyrighted media FROM the iPod. They are being charged because its primary use is to copy copyrighted media TO the iPod.

[iggyb]

For all you US people... what would you think of an non US company refusing to pay US taxes? You'd probably say "who the f?ck do they think they are.. not paying US taxes" etc etc.


Thanks for speaking on my behalf, but I'd rather answer for you. I would applaud the country for not paying a completely asinine tax. and THEN, I would think they should be paying it, because they agreed to trade in our country.

Apple was dumb to ignore this, and the French Gov't is dumb to have such a tax, as is every other country that has a similar tax (including the good ol' US of A)

[ryanw]

I wonder what would happen if I decided to just not pay my taxes this year...
I'd say "Hey - they didn't want to, so they didn't..." and point to this, although I think the IRS auditor might not care so much about the corporate precedent.

Anyone care to try it and report back? I'd do it (sure... right... whatever ;)) but I've already done my taxes for this year. Oh well - there's always next year, right?

IRS has things fairly automated these days. If you don't work for yourself companies submit results to the IRS and the IRS will just send you a bill saying "You owe $X by MM/DD/YYYY or you'll acrue interest at a rate of Y% monthly."

[elmimmo]

This is so stupid. Apple is a U.S. based corporation and has no tax liability in france or any other country. What are they going to do? Close them down!

according to http://www.webster.com :

Multinational:
2 b : having divisions in more than two countries <a multinational corporation>

So yes, effectively closing them down would be an option. Apple France, that is. Charging a heavier fine would probably be a first step, though.

[iggyb]

Those are NOT taxes to lighten piracy effects. This whole issue ha nothing to do with piracy (if that law is similar to Spain's). Those are taxes to relieve a decrease of potential sales when making LEGAL copies of copyrighted works.

Besides, the tax applies to the DESTINATION media, not to the source. Because of that, it is irrelevant how easy/difficult it is to copy copyrighted media FROM the iPod. They are being charged because its primary use is to copy copyrighted media TO the iPod.

You're right. He//, we should have a bus tax, because every ride is potentially losing a sale for a bike, car, SUV, or go-kart.

Screw this potetial sales crap. A tax on a storage device to pay the music industry is just idiotic.

[maelstromr]

How about walk out of the French market? An unfair tax is an unfair tax, trying to feed a bloated bureaucracy...can you imagine what the Europeans would say if similar things were done to one of their companies? Or a tax on compact cars for the Japanese? People on this thread act like laws and taxes make sense, are just and should be accepted because some ass politician made it up.

Let france kick them off the shelves, I doubt Apple will go bankrupt because the French can't buy their products.

[rickvanr]

First, don't bash the French.

Second, we have a similar tax to this in Canada. I had to pay another $25 with my iPod purchase, although, it wasn't a big deal. Apple includes it in the total cost.

[The Cheat]

Effen Frogs!

That's not the type of comment I would expect from someone who has a "bushin30second" link in their sig. Sounds more like something Dubya himself would say behind closed doors.

I find it quite disconcerting the amound of xenophobia that exists in these forums. Particularly coming from so-called "enlightened" mac users.

Amazing how Americans no longer remember that if it wasn't for the support of France in the Revolutionary War, never would have won your independance in the first place. Oh, and I guess the Statue of Liberty is nothing but a gift from those "Effen Frogs"?

[elmimmo]

can you imagine what the Europeans would say if similar things were done to one of their companies?

Welcome to the new world. The US (as the EU and pretty much every other economic region) charges taxes to foreign companies for the very fact of being foreign. Do you agree on that? IMHO, it's not that easy, and that is a very tough question. This case, though, has nothing to do on French laws picking on foreign companies, that law applies to everyone there.

[Tommy Wasabi]

The questions raised by some of the more intelligent posters on this board are very interesting: any computer medium has the potential to store music, so therefore any storage medium could be subjected to this tax right? Well, the iPod is SPECIFICALLY marketed as PRIMARILY a music storage and playback device, while any old HD, while having that capability, isnt marketed as such. I believe that this law could therefore be fought in court and defeated.

It seems that someone with a brain posted on this subject! Hurrah!

This law makes no sense - it's basically saying that Apple is guilty because they make a product that can HOLD stolen material. Would the French charge a tax on Gucci bags since people put shoplifted items in those bags?

Guns don't kill people - people kill people. Apple doesn't pirate music, a minority of their users do. To make matters more interesting - Apple has introduced a product that actually help support musicians - even FAMOUS French musicians (sorry, can't think of one right now).

"Here's my 10 cents 'cause my 2 cents is free"

[billyboy]

Of course Apple will not pay the taxes, the user will. We always do. This time, though, new users only.



Quite amusing you quoting Spain as an example of paying taxes :)

I know Spain quite well, I love the place and am emigrating there soon but in fairness I cant think of any locals I know who would dream of buying their music if it was available on Kazaa. Piracy there is a disease second only to a commitment to the cash economy. A shame because people should pay their way so that the likes of Mago de Oz and Fito etc get a few bucks somewhere down the line to keep up the good work.

[elmimmo]

they make a product that can HOLD stolen material.Would you please learn to read before learning to write. The tax has nothing to do with piracy.Piracy there is a disease.Hi Billyboy. I do know that amongs other things, Spaniards are shamefully known for having very little ethics in relation to piracy, a fame that is well deserved I think too. What you are introducing though, is a different debate: do you make laws that refer to one purpose to ephemistically address other ones, or you call things by their names and make laws that do not try to play the game of rethorics. Again, this has nothing to do with piracy IF what we are to make out of the law is what it is explicitely saying , i.e., what are we to understand of it when it says "legal private copy".

[Tommy Wasabi]

Would you please learn to read before learning to write. The tax has nothing to do with piracy.

According to the AP:

"The argument centers on a fee levied in France on sales of blank CDs, tapes, hard disks and other hardware that can be used to copy music. The proceeds go to musicians and other rights holders who lose money to piracy."

Read the article at: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=5&u=/ap/20040310/ap_on_hi_te/france_apple

It has everything to do with piracy.

[Stella]

Actually, they do have tax liabilities - especially since Apple have a subisdary in france - apple france. If a companies products are sold in a country, that company is liable for the relevant taxes... (barring any loopholes), even over the internet now. The EU recoup sales taxes from US based internet mailing companies on products sold to EU citzens.



Secondly, the french can ban Apple from trading in its country, or even shutdown Apple France, like some one else pointed out.

They (France) can also force all apple products off French shelves.

Yes, even US companies have to abide by local laws...

This is so stupid. Apple is a U.S. based corporation and has no tax liability in france or any other country. What are they going to do? Close them down!

[The Cheat]

It is important to understand that it is the French socialist government that is under attack here and the French "leaders"

It should not be the people.

I think in these discussions it is important to make that distinction.

I don't think that the French government speaks for the people -- similar to other socialist governments.


I'd say since the people of France democratically elected their "socialist" government, its pretty fair to say they speak for them. Can you say the same thing about the last presidential election?

Simply because a country has a government that you would label "socialist", it doesn't mean they are any less democratic than the US. Despite what you may think, other countries do have the right of self-determination, to democratically elect whomever they see fit.

[autrefois]

It is important to understand that it is the French socialist government that is under attack here and the French "leaders"

It should not be the people.

I think in these discussions it is important to make that distinction.

I don't think that the French government speaks for the people -- similar to other socialist governments.

Just wanted to get in on this one. Haven't posted in a long while.

Take Care,
Quark

The Socialists have not been in power in France for about 2 years now. Although it's good that you aren't directing your comments against all French people (as some people apparently are) you should still make sure you know what you're talking about before posting.

Governments do not always speak for the people, even capitalist ones (gasp). Bush certainly does NOT speak for me. People should avoid making blanket criticisms about other cultures and political systems. The French have bad things and good things, and so do we.

This topic has nothing to do with capitalism versus socialism however, it has to do with Apple apparently thinking they're above the law. If you think corporations should dictate laws, including tax law, then Apple is doing an admirable thing here. If you think officials elected by the people should decide on laws and taxes, then Apple should pay up.

[billyboy]

Let france kick them off the shelves, I doubt Apple will go bankrupt because the French can't buy their products.

Thanks for your wise words. I would never have a bought into Mac if I hadnt spent so much time in FNAC, (French Store) . France is probably one of the countries where Mac is best suited - high prices are the norm, and they have a thing for products that are somewhat idiosynchratic, work well and look good.

[elmimmo]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=5&u=/ap/20040310/ap_on_hi_te/france_apple
It has everything to do with piracy.

You are right, and I must excuse me to you and the forum. I wa extrapolating from the Spainsh law, which i the only one I know something about. However, I will still put the credit of that article on hold, since I have repeatedly seen Spanish press media mistakenly refering to our (Spanish) law a a compensation to piracy which, after reading it, is clearly not. I cannot be certain thi journalist does really know what he is talking about unless someone points me to an online version of that French law (which I could not find).

Again, please excuse the rudeness.

[stoid]

If Apple gets it's hind-parts no-so-kindly removed from the French borders, so you think that there will be some sort of Apple black-market underground fueling the faithful during the drought?

[Vlade]

I think that it doesn't matter whether apple likes the tax or not, they should pay it or stop selling ipods to France. If I don't like the IRS's tax can I just not pay it?

[bar italia]

It is important to understand that it is the French socialist government that is under attack here and the French "leaders"

...Just wanted to get in on this one. Haven't posted in a long while.

Take Care,
Quark

Yes, blame Socialism. Thanks for posting -- your insight was missed. :rolleyes:

[srobert]

Heres a rough translation detailing the tax:

The amount of the royalty will fluctuate, depending on the product type and storage capacity. The royalty varies between 10 euros (less than 40 Go) and 15 euros (more than 40 Go) for interactive television and between 8 euros (less than 5 Go) and 20 euros (40 Go) for the numerical walkmans, Home audio and car radios."

Original text:

"Le montant de la redevance fluctuera en effet selon les produits et en fonction de la capacité de stockage. La redevance varie entre 10 euros (moins de 40 Go) et 15 euros (plus de 40 Go) pour la télévision interactive et entre 8 euros (moins de 5 Go) et 20 euros (40 Go) pour les baladeurs, chaînes-hifi et autoradios numériques."

—> source <— (http://www.journaldunet.com/0207/020710tax.shtml)

At least, we now know that as the iPod capacity will increase over 40 GB, the tax will top at 20 euros. It's hard to tax electronics and computers based on their specs because they evolves faster than the tax laws can.

Hmmm... that also means, that if Apple releases their rumored TV peripheral, this tax will apply. (15 euros)

It's kinda sad to see that Apple and the iPod will suffer from tax planned to offset the loss of illegal downloads/copies, when they're the main player in the "LEGAL DOWNLOADS" movement.

[The Cheat]

...can you imagine what the Europeans would say if similar things were done to one of their companies?

Oh, you mean like the huge tariff the US imposed on Steel imports? The tariffs that the WTO declared illegal, but the US still refused to remove them? Or maybe the almost 50% tariff that was put on Canadian softwood lumber last year?

Or a tax on compact cars for the Japanese?

Sort of like the massive tariff slapped on Japanese car imports in the 70s and 80s because US manufacturers were so inefficient they couldn't compete? Even today there is a 25% tariff on Japanese trucks - bet you didn't know that, huh?

Get your facts straight, buddy. Taxes are tariffs are par for the course when operating in another country. Its just that Americans only hear about it and care when its one of their companies or industries that has to pay a tax or tariff. You likely never heard of the illegal steel tariff your country imposed, but I bet you would have if another country did it to you!

[claytonbench]

I disagree, and i will leave it at that. Let me ask, do you all pay your sales tax when you say live in KS and buy from an internet company in FL even though the FL company doesnt collect it from you.

Actually, they do have tax liabilities - especially since Apple have a subisdary in france - apple france. If a companies products are sold in a country, that company is liable for the relevant taxes... (barring any loopholes), even over the internet now. The EU recoup sales taxes from US based internet mailing companies on products sold to EU citzens.



Secondly, the french can ban Apple from trading in its country, or even shutdown Apple France, like some one else pointed out.

They (France) can also force all apple products off French shelves.

Yes, even US companies have to abide by local laws...

[The Cheat]

I disagree, and i will leave it at that. Let me ask, do you all pay your sales tax when you say live in KS and buy from an internet company in FL even though the FL company doesnt collect it from you.

How is that even related!?!? Your example deals within the same country, and involves a consumer buying a product from a store. We are talking about a foreign corporation selling goods in country, and therefore must abide by the local taxation laws!!! Using your logic a foreign company should be able to operate tax free in every other country in the world? How would domestic business stand a chance?!

[Stella]

Yes, blame Socialism. Thanks for posting -- your insight was missed. :rolleyes:

yep. americans seem to bash socialism rather alot... i expect most don't really know what socialism actually is... most seem to think that its communism.


:rolleyes:

[Stella]

Irrevelent.

You are quoting US laws, they do not apply in the Apple - France suitation. France is not in the US, the EU is not in the US (ref: EU international sales tax that I mentioned), and has separate laws.

(personally, I have not done this, since i have never lived in KS)

I disagree, and i will leave it at that. Let me ask, do you all pay your sales tax when you say live in KS and buy from an internet company in FL even though the FL company doesnt collect it from you.

[miketcool]

Taxing the iPod, a device that will soon be linked with the worlds most popular legitimate music download service, is silly! France should be happy that Apple is courteous enough to expand overseas with their revolution against piracy. Taxing each iPod would only cost the consumer, as in the price on the device raises 20 euros for the poor sap. its not that Apple thinks "theyre above the law of all those silly French wussies (figure of speech)", Apple is only trying to prove that the iPod is an intended device for carrying legitimately obtained music. It has nothing to do with Apple being a big arrogant cowboy trampling on the laws of foreign countries, its just how they determine where the iPod falls in with its competition. quit fueling the silly international playground fight and look at things from a new perspective, yeesh.

[kennethmac2000]

Do some people in the US think that every country in the world uses the dollar?

The tax in question is €20, not $20 euros.

Get a grip guys. The euro is not a subdenomination of the US dollar!

[autrefois]

yep. americans seem to bash socialism rather alot... i expect most don't really know what socialism actually is... most seem to think that its communism.


:rolleyes:

People can correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically right: I think most Americans think that socialism is Soviet-style communism, which is NOT true. So, many Americans think a socialist government is by definition undemocratic, totalitarian and against the will of the people. It's understandable that people think that, it's just not true though.

But I think that's probably a discussion for another forum. :)

[whocares]

(...) France should be happy that Apple is courteous enough to expand overseas with their revolution against piracy.

I disagree. I think France is courteous in letting Apple expand overseas.
(that was sarcasm by the way)

(...) its not that Apple thinks "theyre above the law of all those silly French wussies (figure of speech)", Apple is only trying to prove that the iPod is an intended device for carrying legitimately obtained music. (...).

May I be so bold as to remind you that it is the French government and the French people that decide on laws - or at least is should be that way. If France decides, wrongfully or not, that a 20€ tax is a good way to fight piracy, what made Apple believe they're allowed to challenge that?

This disccusion is getting too political and is heading to Wasteland.

[jeffgarden]

If they make people pay artists because of piracy, then they should allow piracy. It's a stupid idea but it makes more sense than charging a company a piracy tax when the company is involved in created the best solution to piracy of music ever.

[Joe_Momma]

Why don't they charge a levy on kitchen knives to give to the families of murdered victims? Freakin' entertainment industry. Their time will come, and all will be left are artists and fans.

[miketcool]

No no no. When iPod introduced the iPod, they attached the "Don't Steal Music" label with it. Under pressure from the music companies and artists, they removed iTunes file sharing. Paying a tax on a product they believe does more to decrease piracy then any other device on the planet would show submission. Submission in the way that they are saying, "yes this media promotes piracy and takes away from artists". Doing such a thing could slow downa European iTunes Music Store release or keeping out other independent labels. Apple has to prove that this device and the store are to stop piracy so they must keep the promise and thus, not pay a tax fot "pirate media". If the law was for electronic devices because it effected a large French hardware corporation, this would be different. But the law, written and voted by the people of France, states media that promotes piracy. Either make piracy legitimate or change the law to specify the iPod.

[claytonbench]

Unless you are in idiot, a person wont goto china to buy something just to avoid taxes. Domestic business would not be affected. I think if a business doesnt want to pay another countrys taxes then DONT. Other countries shouldnt be allowed to push their laws on another country.

How is that even related!?!? Your example deals within the same country, and involves a consumer buying a product from a store. We are talking about a foreign corporation selling goods in country, and therefore must abide by the local taxation laws!!! Using your logic a foreign company should be able to operate tax free in every other country in the world? How would domestic business stand a chance?!

[miketcool]

Before I never hear the end of, "iPod introduced the iPod", change that first iPod to Apple.

[claytonbench]

My main point is that their is NO excuse for any tax. sorry i forgot to attach this to one of my other posts so i added it here

[claytonbench]

It doesnt matter what state you live in. KS or MI or any other state you want.

Irrevelent.

You are quoting US laws, they do not apply in the Apple - France suitation. France is not in the US, the EU is not in the US (ref: EU international sales tax that I mentioned), and has separate laws.

(personally, I have not done this, since i have never lived in KS)

[hulugu]

There seems to be a fair amount of french bashing.. quite unfairly

Lots of countries have taxes on recordable media, including the US. Because the french have it, this makes only the french wrong?

Apple clearly think they are above french law.. which they are not. If you trade in a country, you have to abide by their laws, or don't trade at all. Whether the tax is fair or not irrelevent, you must abide by local laws.

I wouldn't be surprised if French order all iPods off the shevles. Then apple would rethink their position.

For all you US people... what would you think of an non US company refusing to pay US taxes? You'd probably say "who the f?ck do they think they are.. not paying US taxes" etc etc.

So, before French bashing, apply the apple case to your particular country and see how it fits then. Remember - you country probably has a TAX or levy on recordable media. :D

US companies don't even pay US taxes, so frankly I'm not all that surprised. However, I do wonder if this law is fair given the context and that there may a possbility that Apple does not owe the tax, but rather the resellers do, hence the reason Apple is refusing to pay the tax. Furthermore, doesn't this constitute and kind of double taxation since both Apple and the consumer would be taxes on the same transaction? Apple may believe that these laws are inherently unfair.
I agree that French bashing is an entirely too easy and most people are just reacting emotionally. However, 'cheese-eating-surrrender-monkeys' is hilarious, you really can't pass that one up. I mean really, it's funny laugh.

[Mr_Ed]

Do some people in the US think that every country in the world uses the dollar?

The tax in question is ?20, not $20 euros.

Get a grip guys. The euro is not a subdenomination of the US dollar!

Sounds like an awful lot of indignation over a typographical error (he obviously wrote the word "euro" for a reason). Perhaps you should be the one to "get a grip."

[elmimmo]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...te/france_apple
It has everything to do with piracyMy skills in French language are limited to Bablefishing and its latin origins. I once read Orson Scott Card -fluent in portuguese- stating that once you learn a latin language you have learnt them all. I would not be so bold, but having Spanish as my native language I do think I can understand most of the text in the article brought up by srobert (http://www.journaldunet.com/0207/020710tax.shtml)-, so please forgive me if I did misunderstood something:[...]prendre une décision sur l'opportunité ou non de taxer la copie privé sur supports numériques[...][...]of taking the decision or not to tax the private copy in digital media[...][...]l'association de consommateurs a tenu à rappeler "son attachement au droit de la copie privée[...]the association of consumers responded "their right to a private copy" [of legally acquired audiovisual works, NEVER pirated ones].

This whole article debates around the French taxing to the right of making private copies of legally acquired audiovisual media, which lends me to think that the law content and purpose has nothing to do with piracy, its effects and methods to relieve them, and hence, that it is probably indeed quite similar to Spanish law, which taxes LEGAL PRIVATE COPYING to compensate for loss of potential sales (which, just in case, I will reiterate that I think is sick).

So, unless I mistranslated, Tommy Wasabi, it's 1-1 ;), at least until someone points me to an online version of the actual law.

[takao]

how many americans in here already have been to france once ? hm anybody ?

some of the posts here reminds me of a 'Sprichwort' :
"Clean in front of your own door before you complain about others"

i know people from france,america,germany,switzerland,poland,italy,turkey,croatia,peru and met people from more countries like hungary,uk,spain,iran,india,russia,etc (i guess you get it) and the only prejudices that were right were

people from the UK : get sun-burns very fast
italy: they like pasta
germany: they like beer
switzerland: they talk 'funny german' ;)
americans: they have serious problems with eating: cutting everything down to small bits ->take fork/spoon in right hand -> shovel everything into mouth very fast; they consider every house older than 50 as ancient

[Stella]

Still irrelevent.

US Laws do not apply to this Apple v France case.

.. and I don't really care what happens if someone in KS buys something in MI or any other US state, it is not important (to me).


It doesnt matter what state you live in. KS or MI or any other state you want.

ROTFL, excellent post Kakao - quote below.

UK = drink beer, tactical chunder, drink more beer, go for a donna
, throw up again
and, Moan about rain

[QUOTE=takao]
people from the UK : get sun-burns very fast
italy: they like pasta
germany: they like beer
switzerland: they talk 'funny german'
americans: they have serious problems with eating: cutting everything down to small bits ->take fork/spoon in right hand -> shovel everything into mouth very fast; they consider every house older than 50 as ancient
/QUOTE]
__________________

[Savage Henry]

If this Law was in place before Apple started shipping them, then they have no arguement, they've got to pay.

If it's a post-iPod law, then they can kick up a big bruhaha and see if it brings even more publicity to their flagship consumable, and then pay the tax. :)

[whocares]

If this Law was in place before Apple started shipping them, then they have no arguement, they've got to pay.

If it's a post-iPod law, then they can kick up a big bruhaha and see if it brings even more publicity to their flagship consumable, and then pay the tax. :)

And think it will probably apply to any units sold after the law was adopted by the government and is independent of whether it's a pre- or post-iPod law...

-Takao
Great post :p

[miketcool]

Stella, dont forget the whiny-neighbor-in-the-apartment-upstairs stereotype of Canadians. What was the conclusion with Canada's iPod tax?

[Savage Henry]

And think it will probably apply to any units sold after the law was adopted by the government and is independent of whether it's a pre- or post-iPod law...


I'm assuming it is post-introduction. I still can't see the fuss when it's just another mid-game rules-changing trade barrier. They'd lose more per unit if exchange rates were different.

[The Cheat]

Unless you are in idiot, a person wont goto china to buy something just to avoid taxes. Domestic business would not be affected. I think if a business doesnt want to pay another countrys taxes then DONT. Other countries shouldnt be allowed to push their laws on another country.

OMG...They aren't pushing their laws on another country!!! They are taxing a type of product that is sold in THEIR country - MP3 players! You are totally missing the point here, buddy. If Apple didn't pay this tax, it would have an unfair advantage over all the other companies selling MP3 players in France who were paying the tax, and as a result had to raise their prices by 25 euros! And how can you say foreign companies should not be taxed!? So you think that Hondas should be exempt from sales tax, gas tax, environment tax, etc. in the US? You don't think that would affect domestic business when Honda is selling their cars tax free, while GM has to charge thousands more because it is an American company? What are you smoking?

Fact: Apple has decided to do business and make profit in France.
Fact: Apple has a subsidiary in France, Apple France.
Fact: France has passed a law that puts a 25 euro tax on ALL hard drive based MP3 players.
Fact: Apple sells a hard drive based MP3 player in France.
Fact: France (and any country for that matter) can tax any product any way it damn well pleases so long as it is done fairly and across the board.
Fact: If Apple wants to sell iPods in France, it must pay the tax.

People, they are not specifically targeting the iPod! They are taxing all MP3 players as a way to recover money they beleive is lost due to piracy. The fact that that idea is silly does not negate the Rule of Law. Anyways, do you think Apple is going to let the tax cut into their profit? Hell no! They will simply up the price 25 euros! If anything, it will only hurt the people of France, who will be hit with an even higher cost for an iPod. If it is really that unpopular, the people of France can complain to their government. It is really none of your concern!

[The Cheat]

What was the conclusion with Canada's iPod tax?

Oddly, Apple has no problems complying with an almost identical law in Canada.

[jorisx]

I just don't understand any of this fee we pay here in €urop for copyrights or what ever ... what happens if I memorise a song? do I have to pay tax over that too?
So I buy a song (pay for rights) then I copy it to my iPod (I pay rights again) then I back it up on a DVD (I pay rights again) well **** all the rights... I Just don't want any more of these rules, rights and taxes, I just want my right to live, enjoy music & art and be happy :-) lol

[amnesiac1984]

Thanks for your wise words. I would never have a bought into Mac if I hadnt spent so much time in FNAC, (French Store) . France is probably one of the countries where Mac is best suited - high prices are the norm, and they have a thing for products that are somewhat idiosynchratic, work well and look good.

Good point, in fact I remember seeing a Virgin Megastore selling Mac Games with a big Apple logo in the window, you wouldn't dream of seeing this in the UK, also from what I remember a lot of the computer shops had lots of mac stuff, bit like the ones on Tottenham Court Road, London.

[iBrodie]

Oddly, Apple has no problems complying with an almost identical law in Canada.


It is included in the cost and you pay it, Apple doesn't pay the tax the tax is added on and you pay for it.

[IndyGopher]

Yes, blame Socialism. Thanks for posting -- your insight was missed. :rolleyes:
If the intent of the tax is, as reported, to make sure that artists get paid for work that is pirated, and the money comes from everyone, pirate and non-pirate alike, then the goal is to share the wealth evenly.. which sounds a lot like socialism.. which means.. Tada.. blame socialism.

[RIP]

We paid our dues in WWII and have earned the right the refer to the French any way we want. The references usually fit.

That's not the type of comment I would expect from someone who has a "bushin30second" link in their sig. Sounds more like something Dubya himself would say behind closed doors.

I find it quite disconcerting the amound of xenophobia that exists in these forums. Particularly coming from so-called "enlightened" mac users.

Amazing how Americans no longer remember that if it wasn't for the support of France in the Revolutionary War, never would have won your independance in the first place. Oh, and I guess the Statue of Liberty is nothing but a gift from those "Effen Frogs"?

[Joep]

Apple surely has the right to oppose any law or tax that they think is not applicable. If they think that this tax does not apply to their products, they can fight about it in court. Everybody has the power to oppose the execution of the law if they have reasonable arguments why that law does not apply, that is the basic concept of a democratic justice system.

Apple products in France are sold from stores that are not run by Apple, except for the online store. So it might be that the resellers are mostly responsible for the tax, I don't know.

Another fact that might be interesting is that on the sales receipt of the Apple Online Store in France, the address of Apple Ireland is used. It could well be that the french are buying a product from an Irish company. In that case, Irish law and taxes should apply for end-users. Although I doubt that because they apply 19.6% sales tax, the french percentage. European trading laws are not that clear anyway, neither is Apple in stating which post address one is dealing with...

Finally: For all the people who think that France is in anyway less democratic or free than the US, come and live here for a while. France is one of the rare countries in the world where freedom, respect and privacy are not hollow concepts. Although they have a peculiar way of management and are sometimes a bit clumsy in international communication due to less than comfortable english language skills, their society is one the most humane I have encountered so far. I have been living here for a few years now.

From Paris, Joep

[splashman]

I find it quite disconcerting the amound of xenophobia that exists in these forums. Particularly coming from so-called "enlightened" mac users.

Amazing how Americans no longer remember that if it wasn't for the support of France in the Revolutionary War, never would have won your independance in the first place. Oh, and I guess the Statue of Liberty is nothing but a gift from those "Effen Frogs"?

Please. Those miniscule debts were paid a thousand times over in American blood. As you have effectively pointed out, the French government and intelligentsia have done nothing but turn up their noses at the US for over a hundred years, while the US has pulled France's behind from the flames again and again. It's the French and other 3rd-rate Eurotrash that so loftily claim to be enlightened, not the US "cowboys".

Nobody would miss France if it disappeared. Least of all the French.

[Tiauguinho]

Nobody would miss France if it disappeared. Least of all the French.

Oh come on dont be like that! Who would make champagne for all of us? :D

[firewood]

I disagree, and i will leave it at that. Let me ask, do you all pay your sales tax when you say live in KS and buy from an internet company in FL even though the FL company doesnt collect it from you.

Don't know about KS, but in California the state government recently added a line to the state tax return where you are supposed to declare the amount of use tax you owe on mail order and internet purchases. You do check everything for correctness before you sign your tax returns, don't you?

[nek]

I don't know the whole story, but it seems odd that Apple has not been paying the levy because it is usually the responsibility of the importer (Apple France) to pay it.
There are more than 25 countries, including the U.S. which charge a copyright levy on blank media. The reason that it is not so obvious in the U.S. is because the law has not been updated since 1994 and therefore it only applies to DAT and CD-R Audio.
In Canada the levy seems to be updated annually, and actually makes it legal to copy someone else's music off of the internet or a CD or whatever. We can legally download or copy someone else's music but not legally upload/distribute music.

The levy in Canada is as follows:
- Audio cassettes (of 40 minutes or more in length): 29¢ each
- CD-R and CD-RW: 21¢ each
- CD-R Audio, CD-RW Audio and MiniDisc: 77¢ each
- For non-removable memory permanently embedded in a digital audio recorder: $2 for each recorder that can record no more than 1 Gb of data, $15 for each recorder that can record more than 1 Gb and no more than 10*Gbs of data, and $25 for each recorder that can record more than 10*Gbs of data.
Recordable and rewritable DVDs, removable memory cards (such as SmartMedia, CompactFlash and Secure Digital Memory cards), removable micro hard drives, Digital Audio Tape (DAT) and micro-cassettes are considered to be not typically used by individuals for copying music for private use and, therefore, are not subject to a levy.

So our iPods have a $25 levy, the Apple Canada website even states that. When the ipodmini arrives it will have a $15 levy.

[numediaman]

The Cheat: thank you for your posts -- I completely agree.

As for those who want to bash the French . . . go use a PC, or grow up.

It's simple, you want to do business in France, abide by French laws. Same goes for every other country in the world.

One last thing: as far as the French go, any country that can produce Burgundy, Juliette Binoche and the croissant can't be all bad. And by the way, the Socialist are not in power in France. But based on Chirac's performance, they may be back before you know it. Live with it.

[autrefois]

Please. Those miniscule debts were paid a thousand times over in American blood. As you have effectively pointed out, the French government and intelligentsia have done nothing but turn up their noses at the US for over a hundred years, while the US has pulled France's behind from the flames again and again. It's the French and other 3rd-rate Eurotrash that so loftily claim to be enlightened, not the US "cowboys".

Nobody would miss France if it disappeared. Least of all the French.

Can we please get back on the topic of Apple and/or the tax, instead of deciding which societies should or shouldn't magically vanish from the face of the Earth? You don't know how bad this is making Americans look...

Here's something we can discuss instead:

The article says "The French royalties levy was first introduced in 1985 and was extended in July 2002 to cover hard disks built into music players, which incur levies in proportion to their memory capacity."

The law was extended in July 2002. This is after the iPod was introduced, if I'm not mistaken. Was it because of the iPod that the law was extended? In which case, Apple might have a very good reason to fight the law in French courts if it feels it was unfairly targeted (instead of just deciding not to pay it).

Another discussion possibility: Nek has pointed out that apparently 25 countries charge some sort of tax on blank media, including the US.

We can either try to track down the list of all these countries and attack all their people, governments, and cultures, or discuss whether or not 1) the taxes serve their apparent purpose (protecting artists) and 2) whether or not Apple should decide that it's paying the tax in one country (including Canada apparently) and not another.

One last hypothetical situation to discuss: Since people are happy about iTunes allowing people to legally buy music and support artists, why is it OK for Apple to illegally not pay taxes that would also support artists? Wouldn't it be funny if we found out that that is part of the reason millions of Europeans are having to wait and wait for iTunes Europe??

[numediaman]

Splashman, when you grow up, and decide that a trip to Paris is in order, I hope you are stopped at customs and presented with a transcript of your post.

[onemoof]

The levy in Canada is as follows:

- CD-R and CD-RW: 21¢ each



21 cents CAD for a CD-R? Ouch... That's like a 200% tax. I've never paid more than about 5-10 cents USD for a regular CD-R. Actually I rarely pay for CD-Rs at all since every week there is at least one store giving away a 100 pack free after rebate.

[Counterfit]

Are any of you guys familiar with civil disobedience? One of the best ways to follow a law that you think is unfair (riding in the back of the bus due to race, lack of equal rights in any sense, or drug use etc.) is to not follow that particular law. It worked for Martin Luther King Jr., who helped fight some extremely unfair laws, and eventually (and posthumously) had them declared illegal due to the Civil Rights Act. This is similar, as Apple disagrees with the intent and execution of the tax, and therefore refuses to follow it.


Fact: France has passed a law that puts a 25 euro tax on ALL hard drive based MP3 players. Er, not quite. The tax is €10 on 5GB-39GB players, and €20 on 40GB+ players.
But based on Chirac's performance, they may be back before you know it. HA! That reminds me of some graffiti I saw at the top of the Eiffel Tower. It was Chirac smoking a joint :cool: Probably gone by now, that was almost two years ago. But the view from up there is AMAZING!

[Hattig]

Unless you are in idiot, a person wont goto china to buy something just to avoid taxes. Domestic business would not be affected. I think if a business doesnt want to pay another countrys taxes then DONT. Other countries shouldnt be allowed to push their laws on another country.
damn you're dumb

When you sell in a foreign country, you abide by their laws. It is common sense. Sure, maybe the French could mail order from the US, and have to deal with customs charges and the massive delay in shipping (then again, Apple shipping speed is a joke already), but Apple would have no native presence. Apple wants a native presence - therefore they abide by local law.

[splashman]

Splashman, when you grow up, and decide that a trip to Paris is in order, I hope you are stopped at customs and presented with a transcript of your post.

[copy-paste from previous post]

Ha ha ha ha har har <snort> <giggle> har har

[/copy-paste]

A trip to Paris? For what? To accept their surrender?

Please, my sides are aching from laughing so hard! Have mercy on a po' white trash 'merican!

[iLilana]

we have have the same levi in canada... I haven't seen an f'n penny. Its a tax grab that is completely mis handled. a stupid idea for sure.

[MrMacMan]

Apple should have complied with the taxes... stupid people.

Apple you can't just do that.

Apple pay their silly tax that they give to the greedy recording companies for no reason...

France and Canadian tax -- bite me.

Apple -- Pay it you losers.

[Hattig]

Ha ha ha ha har har <snort> <giggle> har har

That's the extent of French accomplishments right there. Except for appeasement, of course.

Truly worthy of their name: cheese-eating surrender monkeys.

:-D

Better than fatty sub-par fast food, fat obnoxious people and a skill at making the rest of the world (of which you only supply 6% of the population) think that you are a bunch of international bullies and who detest you because of it.

The French are generally nice, if opinionated, people. Their election system sucks though (but hey, you American's can't take the piss out of that given your last election) because of the two stage process which put Chirac up against a fascist nationalist. Yeah, they make good wine, nice food, etc. Oh, unfortunately they smoke like chimneys. And hate Americans.

[mhouse]

...therefore Apple should not pay it. I think its really courageous of Apple to take a stand against this type of egregious misuse of government power. Companies like Apple should be free to do business with the citizens of France as they wish. If the French people truly object to Apple's refusal to pay this tax then they will simply stop buying Apple products, yes? Apple, in turn, will either acquiesce or accept the loss of the French market.

Why do the courts and the government need to become involved?

France is home to a wise and cultured people. I scarcely think they need some private bureaucrat to fend for them.

[whocares]

:o :o :o :o :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

From the way certain posts in this thread are turning out, me thinks quite a few people need to take some vacations in France to found out just what
they're talking about.

------------------------------

Back to topic. Yes Apple can disagree and fight the law... But the way it works over here is you pay the tax, fight it, and if you win, you get your money back. If you don't pay a take it to court, you stand no chance... This may sound unfair, but it's the way it's done here.

Some may call it socialism, some may even call it communism or dictatorship, but from having spent 16 years here, I can say I call a nice society to live in. Before bashing it, please give it a try.

------------------------------

As for the who is indepted to whom, and whoso blood has been shred, please open some history books and redirect the comments towards the politocal forums... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[splashman]

Better than fatty sub-par fast food, fat obnoxious people and a skill at making the rest of the world (of which you only supply 6% of the population) think that you are a bunch of international bullies and who detest you because of it.

Heh heh. The whole world, dependent on 6% and insane with jealousy because of it. Gotta love it. :D

[whocares]

...therefore Apple should not pay it. I think its really courageous of Apple to take a stand against this type of egregious misuse of government power. Companies like Apple should be free to do business with the citizens of France as they wish. If the French people truly object to Apple's refusal to pay this tax then they will simply stop buying Apple products, yes? Apple, in turn, will either acquiesce or accept the loss of the French market.

It may be courageous, but it's against the law. It is not egregious use of government power as the government represents the people. Have you ever considered the fact that the French may possibly agree with the governments decisions? This may be a bad example b/c many people will disagree with it, but one judges a government on its global results, not some individual tax...

I think that if people as a majority really disagreed with the tax, they would go to the streets and demonstrate as they usually do.

The point is this is France, it's French law and Apple can't do a damn think about it. I understand that many people here find this unexeptable that the government interferes with business, but people in France/Europe are generally more left-wing than Americans. And we generally like the way it is. So please, try and look at this from a different perspective...

[whocares]

The whole world, dependent on 6% and insane with jealousy because of it.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I'm not jealous of it!

[biteenbois]

OMG...They aren't pushing their laws on another country!!! They are taxing a type of product that is sold in THEIR country - MP3 players! You are totally missing the point here, buddy. If Apple didn't pay this tax, it would have an unfair advantage over all the other companies selling MP3 players in France who were paying the tax, and as a result had to raise their prices by 25 euros! And how can you say foreign companies should not be taxed!? So you think that Hondas should be exempt from sales tax, gas tax, environment tax, etc. in the US? You don't think that would affect domestic business when Honda is selling their cars tax free, while GM has to charge thousands more because it is an American company? What are you smoking?

Fact: Apple has decided to do business and make profit in France.
Fact: Apple has a subsidiary in France, Apple France.
Fact: France has passed a law that puts a 25 euro tax on ALL hard drive based MP3 players.
Fact: Apple sells a hard drive based MP3 player in France.
Fact: France (and any country for that matter) can tax any product any way it damn well pleases so long as it is done fairly and across the board.
Fact: If Apple wants to sell iPods in France, it must pay the tax.

People, they are not specifically targeting the iPod! They are taxing all MP3 players as a way to recover money they beleive is lost due to piracy. The fact that that idea is silly does not negate the Rule of Law. Anyways, do you think Apple is going to let the tax cut into their profit? Hell no! They will simply up the price 25 euros! If anything, it will only hurt the people of France, who will be hit with an even higher cost for an iPod. If it is really that unpopular, the people of France can complain to their government. It is really none of your concern!

Nice try but you got some of your facts wrong.
> Fact: Apple has decided to do business and make profit in France.
> Fact: Apple has a subsidiary in France, Apple France.
This one is obviously right since Apple France is one of their oldest foreign representations, dating back to early 80's.

> Fact: France has passed a law that puts a 25 euro tax on ALL hard drive based MP3 players.
Wrong.
The law itself date back to the mid 80's and the amount depends of various factors such as the size and the type of the media (e.g flash memories are taxed at a much higher rate per MB than mini hard-drives and CD-R).

Background info :
This law is about what is called "exception au droit d'auteur pour la copie privée" (~ exception to copyright for private copy). Think fair use.
Back in the 80's the authors/performers/producers/whatever were whining (nothing new under the sun) that the widespread usage of analog recording (VCR, various audio supports, etc) was a big threat to their revenues (we'll be starved to death, blabla, seems familiar ? :)
This law was passed with the purpose to give them some compensation to legal usage of analog recording by invididuals, such as multiple copies inside the same family of audio tapes, record of films aired on TV etc

Back at the end of the last century the authors representatives came to the autorities to ask for a refresh of the list of taxed medias and amounts (only analog, mostly cassettes were taxed at this time). The amount collected from taxed cassettes was falling dramatically at the time with the rising popularity of CD burners. The ministry of Culture, in charge of the matter, apointed a new commission in 2000 (as set by the law, the amounts are decided by a commission which include representatives from authors, consumers and industrials - The previous commission ended its work back in 86).
The commission is composed of 12 representatives from various authors rights organizations, 6 representatives from consumers rights organizations, 6 representatives from industrials and a president. This commission is now know as commission Brun-Buisson, after the name of its president.
The rebirth of this commission was not welcomed by consumers who pointed out a lot of problems (the fact that digital medias are general purpose not tailored for specific applications like cassettes, the composition of the commission, the background of the president chosen the ministry, opacity of the authors societies in charge of getting and distributing the money etc etc).
The president, which was supposed to act as an arbitrator, shamelessly sided with the authors representatives and the commission became the tool of the producers lobby.
The meetings of the commission are not public but it is rumored that everyone inside was knives out and shouting bad words from the beginning.

The fees are not supposed to be compensation for piracy according to the law, but Brun-Bruisson made bold comments in the medias crediting himself salvaging the poors musicians from widespread piracy effects (yes he shoud have been sacked for such comments, but it did not happen).
The fees on blank CD & DVD were set in 2001 and on hard-drives used in consumer (not computers) products in 2002.
At the same time, the brittons selling blank CD-R and DVD-R by mail order suddenly started to offer translation of their web sites in french and accept payments in euros :)

The money is supposed to be handed out to authors societies by the importer. If the dispute goes to court, Apple will probably loose.

Comparison (http://www.vnunet.fr/actu/article.htm?numero=6697) (a bit outdated) of fees collected in various european countries

[Hattig]

Heh heh. The whole world, dependent on 6% and insane with jealousy because of it. Gotta love it. :D
Most of the world isn't dependent on America at all. Just a significant proportion is still getting up to date (Asia), and when they are we'll be in for some interesting times indeed. 1 billion Chinese vs. 300m Americans ...

[Counterfit]

Heh heh. The whole world, dependent on 6% and insane with jealousy because of it. Gotta love it. :D Do me, and the rest of the country, a favor. WELD YOUR DAMN MOUTH SHUT.

[mhouse]

Have you ever considered the fact that the French may possibly agree with the governments decisions? .

I think my post reflects the fact that I have considered it quite carefully. I do not see how this is a left wing/ right wing political issue. It is just as you say: the French people are perfectly capable of making their will known.

If they do not like Apple's position, then they will punish Apple for that position, thereby registering their solidarity with the French government.

However, if in fact, as I believe is the case, the French do not agree with their government on this issue, then they should have the right to make that known by continuing to buy Apple's products.

What course be simpler, more just, or more democratic than that? This is not a criminal matter nor one of life and death. Let the French simply decide for themselves by direct vote as it were.

[splashman]

Do me, and the rest of the country, a favor. WELD YOUR DAMN MOUTH SHUT.

Heh heh. Thank you! This is fun! :D

[whocares]

I think my post reflects the fact that I have considered it quite carefully. I do not see how this is a left wing/ right wing political issue. It is just as you say: the French people are perfectly capable of making their will known.

If they do not like Apple's position, then they will punish Apple for that position, thereby registering their solidarity with the French government.

However, if in fact, as I believe is the case, the French do not agree with their government on this issue, then they should have the right to make that known by continuing to buy Apple's products.

What course be simpler, more just, or more democratic than that? This is not a criminal matter nor one of life and death. Let the French simply decide for themselves by direct vote as it were.

I agree with you in that the French should be able to show their disapproval (sp?) with the government on this issue. I certainly disapprove of it. There are however ways for this: talking to your local representative, consummer associations, press, demonstration (a French favourite and speciality ;) ).
I think that by doing this, Apple is making ths situation worse by pissinf off the government and music industry. They are blocking doors for iTMS France/Europe. They should pay up - hence showing good will, and look for alternate solution to fitting this. Maybe help consummers get organized. Give away free iPods! :eek: :D Though I'm quite sure France would find some way to tax those too...

(finally some cleaver, constructed argumentation - thanx mhouse)

[splashman]

Most of the world isn't dependent on America at all. Just a significant proportion is still getting up to date (Asia), and when they are we'll be in for some interesting times indeed. 1 billion Chinese vs. 300m Americans ...

Uh huh. And where do you think China would be without the U.S. market?

Seen the latest demographics out of China? They will sink under their own weight in no more than 2 generations. Europe, for that matter, will be dominated by Muslims in 30 years, with a proportionate effect on their economy. Which brings us back to . . . U.S.A. :D

[whocares]

Heh heh.

I see most of your posts are as constructive as this one... (http://forums.macrumors.com/search.php?searchid=12315) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[splashman]

I see most of your posts are as constructive as this one... (http://forums.macrumors.com/search.php?searchid=12315) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I have edited that post. Better now? :D

Who's the more foolish? The fool? Or the fool who follows him?

[The Cheat]

> Fact: France has passed a law that puts a 25 euro tax on ALL hard drive based MP3 players.
Wrong.
The law itself date back to the mid 80's and the amount depends of various factors such as the size and the type of the media (e.g flash memories are taxed at a much higher rate per MB than mini hard-drives and CD-R).


How am I wrong? Is there, or is there not a 25 euro tax on the iPod? Regardless of its origins, the tax is still there.

[The Cheat]

...Europe, for that matter, will be dominated by Muslims in 30 years, with a proportionate effect on their economy.

That is a little extreme. But if you want to play that game, it is more likely the US will be dominated by hispanics in 20 years.

[Rower_CPU]

I have edited that post. Better now? :D

Who's the more foolish? The fool? Or the fool who follows him?

A: The guy who gets himself banned. :rolleyes:

Clean it up folks, or this thread is getting closed.

[The Cheat]

21 cents CAD for a CD-R? Ouch... That's like a 200% tax.

The levy of 21 cents applies only to CD-Rs for stand-alone audio equipment. The US has a similar levy, I beleive. Regular CD-Rs for computers are not taxed. Does it make sense? Nope.