Mac fans and their faith [Archive]

CelticBhoy

Mar 14, 2004, 10:48 AM

Hi all. Since we've has 'mac fans and their sexuality', and gender, and sport affiliations etc, I was interested to know who here is a Christian. If you don't have any faith then, cool, you don't have to bother replying, as I'll assume this by default. Or if you follow another faith then feel free to start your own thread ! I just want to know who here is a Christian, and some background details. For me, I'm a Christian of 25 years, live in the UK, and go along to a Baptist church. It's the most important thing in my life (yes, even more than Celtic FC !) and I enjoy it big time ! It causes no conflict with my intellect (!), and I'm utterly convinced by it through both experiences and study. I find the recorded actions of Jesus fascinating, challenging, and worth giving my life over to. I don't mean to alienate people here, or rile them, but to just explore this topic through this thread.

coopdog

Mar 14, 2004, 10:54 AM

Don't have one, hope I never do (again).

JesseJames

Mar 14, 2004, 11:11 AM

Ho man. Not another religion thread. :rolleyes:

Counterfit

Mar 14, 2004, 11:37 AM

Ho man. Not another religion thread. :rolleyes:Right, I don't this this as staying out of the Wasteland for very long, I put $5 on someone making an extremely offensive post before 25 replies.

Macmaniac

Mar 14, 2004, 12:20 PM

Where's the sign that say "this thread could get nasty?" I thought vnow had one of those signs;)
As for my faith I like to think of myself as a a Quaker, however I differ on some beliefs.

Savage Henry

Mar 14, 2004, 12:36 PM

I'm a Rationalist.

poopyhead

Mar 14, 2004, 12:36 PM

I grew up Methodist
now I'm more or less a Liberal Quaker

PlaceofDis

Mar 14, 2004, 01:02 PM

i grew up a Roman Catholic
after 18 years i decided no way and i live by my own morals that seem to be in tune with the general public and i believe strongly in a few eastern religions but i dont practice any, just sort of borrowing ideas....

AhmedFaisal

Mar 14, 2004, 01:12 PM

First you ask about its sexuality, now about its religion. My Mac's fan is just an innocent pure little fan that keeps my Powerbook nice and cool, that is all, it doesn't have sex with it, it doesn't want to convert it to any faith and no, it doesn't vote either! ;)

Seriously though, I was babtized Lutheran and believe in a lot of the values but otherwise, I consider myself an atheist.
Cheers,

Ahmed

scem0

Mar 14, 2004, 01:31 PM

Agnostic.

scem0

pseudobrit

Mar 14, 2004, 01:33 PM

Hi all. Since we've has 'mac fans and their sexuality', and gender, and sport affiliations etc, I was interested to know who here is a Christian. If you don't have any faith then, cool, you don't have to bother replying, as I'll assume this by default.

You title the thread "Mac fans and their faith" but then exculde everyone who's not Christian? You assume everyone who's not Christian doesn't "have any faith?" There are quite a number of religions and philosphies out there, my friend.

I don't mean to alienate people here, or rile them, but to just explore this topic through this thread.

You need to try harder not to alienate people.

As for me, I'm just one of those evil papists.

Counterfit

Mar 14, 2004, 01:41 PM

First you ask about its sexuality, now about its religion. My Mac's fan is just an innocent pure little fan that keeps my Powerbook nice and cool, that is all, it doesn't have sex with it, it doesn't want to convert it to any faith and no, it doesn't vote either! ;) :rolleyes:
Well, we're doing good so far. So I might as well answer the question. Roman Catholic. Sure, there are bits n pieces I don't agree with, but I doubt there's any religion that I would go 100% on. Bhuddism (sp?) is pretty cool too, we could all learn something there.

Tiauguinho

Mar 14, 2004, 01:52 PM

Right, I don't this this as staying out of the Wasteland for very long, I put $5 on someone making an extremely offensive post before 25 replies.

If I say it, can we split the profit? :D

Earendil

Mar 14, 2004, 01:56 PM

19 years of age and whole heartedly Christian, living in the Pacific NW. Currently going to a Presbyterian church because they appear to parallel what I understand of the Bible a little closer than the average denominations around here, and also hits my worship style better (Option #2, small town baptist church, ug...). Nothing against the rest of you though :D
I'm young and so there are worship styles that definitely hit me a little better than others :D

Second Religion is Apple. I always try and carry my Book of Power around with me to help poor lost souls see the light. The shining Apple logo light that is :D

Tyler
Earendil

CelticBhoy

Mar 14, 2004, 02:33 PM

You title the thread "Mac fans and their faith" but then exculde everyone who's not Christian? You assume everyone who's not Christian doesn't "have any faith?" There are quite a number of religions and philosphies out there, my friend.

You need to try harder not to alienate people.

As for me, I'm just one of those evil papists.

Sorry PsuedoBrit, but I hope this clears it up for you : I'm particularly interested, my friend, in the Christian faith, just like the guy who started the Liverpool FC thread is particularly interested in, em, Liverpool FC, and any Man U fans can start their own thread if they like.

Counterfit

Mar 14, 2004, 02:54 PM

If I say it, can we split the profit? :D No.

:p

rainman::|:|

Mar 14, 2004, 03:10 PM

i have my own faith, based in the philosophy of Taoism and the sensibilities of the earth religions. neopaganism actually melts well with taoism.

i agree, i think it's a bit shortsighted to allow only christians to post. For your information, it's rarely a good idea to specify whom may reply, because you're on a public forum-- just expect people to say what they want, if they feel like it.

paul

voicegy

Mar 14, 2004, 03:18 PM

Whoa, here we go again...well, before it gets wastelanded, Christian here.

idkew

Mar 14, 2004, 03:47 PM

poopyhead

Mar 14, 2004, 03:57 PM

right now, religion is the reason for most deaths in this world.

Is it?

hvfsl

Mar 14, 2004, 04:06 PM

raised christian, never liked it. now agnostic.

theoretically, some "God" had to start everything along, but i am not sure that entity has anything to do with what happened after the kick-start.

right now, religion is the reason for most deaths in this world. that fact alone makes me hate organized religion.

And what religion were Hitler and Stalin, even Sadam did not originally have a religion, he 'converted' to Islam because he wanted to be the ruler of the middle east.

I think you will find most deaths are to do with disputes over land and property.

As for me I dont see the point in believing in something if they are not all powerful. I mean whats the point, if they dont know everything, there is nothing they could help me with in my life, so thats why I am a christain.

Roger1

Mar 14, 2004, 04:33 PM

I'm a Christian.
This is post 22, and not shut down yet

gwuMACaddict

Mar 14, 2004, 04:44 PM

raised methodist, but found my own beleifs to lie more with the conservative episcopal church, so that's what i practice now :)

ColoJohnBoy

Mar 14, 2004, 04:51 PM

Born a Mormon. Raised a Mormon. Thought that meant I was Christian. Did some studying. Found out that wasn't true. Didn't like the Mormon church anyway. Did more studying. Now go to services by the liberal Quakers here, but more than anything I consider my self a secular humanist.

(How's that for convoluted? ;))

trebblekicked

Mar 14, 2004, 04:51 PM

i believe in god and jesus et al, but i am not a christian.

i believe a wager can be settled now...

Counterfit

Mar 14, 2004, 05:11 PM

i believe in god and jesus et al, but i am not a christian.

i believe a wager can be settled now... Nope, I said 25 reply. This post (mine) is the 25th reply. So have I screwed myself?

ALL YOU WHO DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD ARE STUPID ****ERS WHO WILL BURN IN HELL!!!!

Not at all :D

Besides, no one took me up on it. :p

tpjunkie

Mar 14, 2004, 05:59 PM

bugger, i was trying to come up with something hateful to say... :p

but seriously, try searching before you post next time, i believe there was as thread a few months ago titled "christians?" with pretty much the same purpose as this one was intended to.

windowsblowsass

Mar 14, 2004, 06:05 PM

bryanc

Mar 14, 2004, 06:09 PM

Something I've noted before is this:

Somewhere between 90 and 95% of computer users in the western world use primarily PCs, and somewhere between 90 and 95% of people in the western world will identify themselves as Christians of some flavour. Coincidence?

For anyone who's curious, I have no faith...in fact, I think of faith as one of the most dangerous and intellectually lazy attributes a person can have. So count me among the agnostic atheists.

(btw, since agnostic means 'having no knowledge' regarding the nature of god(s), and atheist means 'having no belief' in god(s), all agnostics are atheists (but not all atheists are agnostic)).

Cheers.

Sabbath

Mar 14, 2004, 06:23 PM

Think Different!

Judo

Mar 14, 2004, 06:53 PM

And what religion were Hitler and Stalin, even Sadam did not originally have a religion, he 'converted' to Islam because he wanted to be the ruler of the middle east.

I believe Hitler was a Christian. Correct me if I'm wrong though. Not so sure about Stalin. Did a quick google but didn't find what religion he followed. I'm guessing he didn't follow or condone religion though.

I think you will find most deaths are to do with disputes over land and property.

You would have to admit that religion does play a big role in alot of wars though. It's been a powerful tool used to create a stronger sence of patriotism and insight more hatred against a foe.

At a guess I would say most deaths are from preventable disease.

As for me I dont see the point in believing in something if they are not all powerful. I mean whats the point, if they dont know everything, there is nothing they could help me with in my life, so thats why I am a christain.

Interesting reason for following the Christian religion.

I'm agnostic.

poopyhead

Mar 14, 2004, 07:08 PM

I believe Hitler was a Christian. Correct me if I'm wrong though. Not so sure about Stalin. Did a quick google but didn't find what religion he followed. I'm guessing he didn't follow or condone religion though.

You would have to admit that religion does play a big role in alot of wars though. It's been a powerful tool used to create a stronger sence of patriotism and insight more hatred against a foe.

While Hitler may have grown up a Christian, later on he was more of a Wagnarian mysticist, far from Christian.
Stalin was a devout atheist.

several forms of ideology are used in war to deceive, manipulate, and justify, however, war itself, I feel most would agree, is in complete opposition to the typical understanding (or at least my understanding) if not actions of most Christians.

pseudobrit

Mar 14, 2004, 07:10 PM

Sorry PsuedoBrit, but I hope this clears it up for you : I'm particularly interested, my friend, in the Christian faith, just like the guy who started the Liverpool FC thread is particularly interested in, em, Liverpool FC, and any Man U fans can start their own thread if they like.

The Liverpool FC thread is labeled as such.

If the originator were to have started a thread titled "Mac fans and Football Clubs" and then tell all non-Liverpudlian fans to stay out and not bother posting if they weren't cheering for his team I'd also take issue with his lack of tact.

pseudobrit

Mar 14, 2004, 07:11 PM

is it just me or does psuedo get offended by everything?

I'm offended by such a suggestion.

idkew

Mar 14, 2004, 07:51 PM

is it just me or does psuedo get offended by everything?

i think he has a point here.

railthinner

Mar 14, 2004, 08:27 PM

Well, Jesus, I hate to blatantly steal something from a commentator I heard last night so I'll paraphrase. I believe religion is the root cause of the majority of evil acts perpetrated by man. Religion is exclusionarly and takes advantage of human weakness. That said -- there are also religions that have had no evil commited by the followers in the name of said religion (at least not to any large extent -- there's a few random lunatics everywhere) and also most religions have some grand philosophies, seriously -- it's just unfortunate people get so hell bent on THEIR ************ religion they can't see the forest through the trees. How on Earth can anyone follow the Catholic church? protecting child molesters – enslaving women, a history of slaughter – what a choice. I'm sure God is proud.

question fear

Mar 14, 2004, 08:30 PM

im jewish. (reform jew)

Dros

Mar 14, 2004, 09:42 PM

Something I've noted before is this:
(btw, since agnostic means 'having no knowledge' regarding the nature of god(s), and atheist means 'having no belief' in god(s), all agnostics are atheists (but not all atheists are agnostic)).

My understanding is similar to yours - agnostics think it is impossible to tell if God is present, while atheists do not believe that God is present. But why are all agnostics atheists? If you think it is impossible to know, that doesn't always lead to not believing, I would think.

e-coli

Mar 14, 2004, 10:03 PM

I'm a Rationalist.

That's brilliant. Thanks. That made my day. :)

I, personally, go to church every once in a while to brush up on my judgementalism skills. It's also great for exclusivity and intolerance.

oops....did I just make this thread a wasteland thread? :( :D

e-coli

Mar 14, 2004, 10:06 PM

Something I've noted before is this:

Somewhere between 90 and 95% of computer users in the western world use primarily PCs, and somewhere between 90 and 95% of people in the western world will identify themselves as Christians of some flavour.

Might want to check those facts again.

I think the percentage of "Christians" is hovering somewhere around 60%. Nowhere even close to 90%. :rolleyes:

MongoTheGeek

Mar 14, 2004, 10:08 PM

Well, Jesus, I hate to blatantly steal something from a commentator I heard last night so I'll paraphrase. I believe religion is the root cause of the majority of evil acts perpetrated by man. Religion is exclusionarly and takes advantage of human weakness. That said -- there are also religions that have had no evil commited by the followers in the name of said religion (at least not to any large extent -- there's a few random lunatics everywhere) and also most religions have some grand philosophies, seriously -- it's just unfortunate people get so hell bent on THEIR ************ religion they can't see the forest through the trees. How on Earth can anyone follow the Catholic church? protecting child molesters – enslaving women, a history of slaughter – what a choice. I'm sure God is proud.

It seems to be the Catholic church in America has the issue. Mostly that has to do with creeping liberalism in the church. Back in the day the priests would be asked to reexamine their spirituality and commitment to God in an ascetic monastery. It would be hairshirts and hard labor, prayer and penance.

I would say that religion has been the excuse for the greatest amount of killing. The killing is for other reasons. As the song goes "Do it in the name of heaven and justify it all in the end."

7on

Mar 14, 2004, 10:36 PM

Christian +background details

aswitcher

Mar 14, 2004, 10:37 PM

Well, Jesus, I hate to blatantly steal something from a commentator I heard last night so I'll paraphrase. I believe religion is the root cause of the majority of evil acts perpetrated by man.

Actually I would say that man's selfishness, xenophobia (fear), pride and greed is the cause, and that religions have been twisted and abused by these drives, either personally or on mass, which has led to these evil acts.

Religion is exclusionarly and takes advantage of human weakness. That said -- there are also religions that have had no evil commited by the followers in the name of said religion (at least not to any large extent -- there's a few random lunatics everywhere) and also most religions have some grand philosophies, seriously -- it's just unfortunate people get so hell bent on THEIR ************ religion they can't see the forest through the trees. How on Earth can anyone follow the Catholic church? protecting child molesters – enslaving women, a history of slaughter – what a choice. I'm sure God is proud.

Actually I see the problems coming from human weakness, and the Christian religion trying to lift us above our baser nature.

The Catholic Church (I am not Catholic) does not preach any of those acts you have given as examples as anything but evil. They are in fact examples of personal human decisions by both the abusers/evil doers, and those who feared the damage it would do to the Catholic Church and so hid this evil for reasons of greater good - which was and is clearly wrong. Nothing I am aware of in the Bible justifies either the evil that was done or the covered up. I am pretty sure that this is now the view of the CC as well.

A Christain perspective based on the New Testament is that this life, this world we live in, is tainted by Evil, and until the Second Coming of Christ, evil will be ever present, tempting us to the easy selfish paths. The reason evil is allowed to exist is complex (ok this whole topic is complex) but comes down to a time of trial to allow the redemption of souls (us) rather than just wiping us all out back when we were seperated from God. The parable of the sower in Matthew 13 gives a summary of this life we live in and what is to come.

I am more than happy to continue a discussion if its of further interest to you.

yuc7zhd2

Mar 14, 2004, 11:04 PM

Great, don't pass up an opportunity to bash the Roman Catholic Church. I mean, those damn catholics are all child raping, culture crushing perps, right? And no other christian sects have committed heinous acts in the name of god, have they. No, not the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan or Jerry Falwell or anyone that isn't catholic, right? Personally, I don't buy into any of the religions, christian or otherwise, but such a blatantly retarded bashing of another sect of your own reported religion shows true ignorance.

MrMacMan

Mar 15, 2004, 12:16 AM

railthinner + aswitcher + yuc7zhd2 =
Trio of DOOM

haha just kidding.

I'm jewish.

And if this thread gets wastelanded, its all your fault because I did nothing to say anything bad about the church or jesus or whatnot.

aswitcher

Mar 15, 2004, 12:19 AM

miloblithe

Mar 15, 2004, 12:34 AM

While Hitler may have grown up a Christian, later on he was more of a Wagnarian mysticist, far from Christian.
Stalin was a devout atheist.

several forms of ideology are used in war to deceive, manipulate, and justify, however, war itself, I feel most would agree, is in complete opposition to the typical understanding (or at least my understanding) if not actions of most Christians.

Stalin grew up training to be a priest. He, obviously, found more truth in Communism in the long run, but after persecuting the religious and blowing up churches in the 1930s, he did a 180 and dragged out religion in the name of defending the motherland during WWII.

I would agree that war should be the opposite of the understanding and actions of most Christians, but fighting in the name of Christianity goes on. Usually it's crafted (as most wars are) in the language of defense, but fighting for Christianity it is.

aswitcher

Mar 15, 2004, 12:46 AM

SNIP
I would agree that war should be the opposite of the understanding and actions of most Christians, but fighting in the name of Christianity goes on. Usually it's crafted (as most wars are) in the language of defense, but fighting for Christianity it is.

I agree with fighting in the name of Christianity goes on, but I don't agree (perhaps I am misreading your final sentence) that it actually is a Christian santified war or some such. Christianity has at its core love, and from that immediately flows peace. Since the New Testament bought in the new convenant through Jesus, its not about war in the name of God but about redemption through Christ for Christians. Of course its not that easy for us when we think about letting evil actions abuse, kill and destroy because we want to stop them.

railthinner

Mar 15, 2004, 02:05 AM

railthinner + aswitcher + yuc7zhd2 =
Trio of DOOM

And if this thread gets wastelanded, its all your fault because I did nothing to say anything bad about the church or jesus or whatnot.

I have nothing against Jesus. Or whatnot.

I would hope that keeping it civil would save the thread from burning in the flames of hell. I've merely expressed my opinion and not lashed out in attack on anyone here nor have the responses to my opinion yet stooped so low. I realize in these sort of discussions people can take things very personally but my opinion is just that – opinion.

And no other christian sects have committed heinous acts in the name of god, have they

Well, yeah......... exactly. I used the Catholic church as one quick example. But now that you mention there certainly are a lot of other screwed up "Christians" as well. Screwed up atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. etc. Damn us humans. Oh wait please don't damn us. save us. Or can we save ourselves? hmmmmmmmmm.

The Catholic Church (I am not Catholic) does not preach any of those acts you have given as examples as anything but evil.
Of course they don't preach it. But when the higher ups in the Church decide to cover up 100's of the most heinous acts commited against innocent children to protect their own interests – that's pure evil. And of course we're just talking about flawed humans. It isn't actually God doing these things. I don't have anything against God, assuming there is a God. But when these people who are supposed to represent God are so COMPLETELY flawed and corrupt it's time to tear down the house and start from scratch. If there were any shame or humility as we might see in a devout monk, the church would be on it's knees begging forgiveness from God publicly, assuring mankind that they can make an example of themselves, but there is no such thing in this powerful political machine as humbleness. What a disgrace. If this were done by any other orginization the public would demand some form of justice.

You know, I just re-read your last response to Miloblithe and it's similar to what you said to me. The thing is –*of course the official office of Christianity (whoever they are) or the Catholic church or whatever other official religous body isn't coming out saying publicly "we commit these acts of violence and greed in the name of...... (fill in religion here.)" But it's people (presidents, kings, terrorists, bishops) who frequently do these things with some corrupt notion of God's intent existing in their heart. That's a deep seeded perversion of faith in any God. Or they simply try to take advantage of other people's faith and fears to fulfill their own political desires.

Oh, that's enough. goodnight

aswitcher

Mar 15, 2004, 02:19 AM

I have nothing against Jesus. Or whatnot.

SNIP
But it's people (presidents, kings, terrorists, bishops) who frequently do these things with some corrupt notion of God's intent existing in their heart. That's a deep seeded perversion of faith in any God. Or they simply try to take advantage of other people's faith and fears to fulfill their own political desires.

I agree. But it is the people, its their failing of faith, not a failing of the underlying religon.

I guess this brings me to one of my favourite quotes based on what I have seen of life :) ;

"Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887. 'Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men'."
http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/meanings/22900.htmlb

jefhatfield

Mar 15, 2004, 10:34 PM

moderate christian

bible=word of god, but it's not a legislative agenda as stated by general colin powell in his autobiography

the conservative christian, at least politically, likes to make church and state the same and in theory, that sounds good...but history has shown that the state takes over so when the "civilized" christians convert the "savages", the real goal goes towards serving the state and it's the "gold" which matters, not the religion or spreading of the word

the state, eventually controlling all, makes the religion/religious leaders preach the word to the ends of the word as a convenient way to find new sources of gold

the crusades and discovery/colonization of the new world reaped a lot of riches, at least on this earth, but did nothing to build their "heavenly" riches for the european travelers/christians

if the gop and christian right get their way, the god as we know it in christianity will be money, not god...and the people so deep in the church/state behemoth will not be able to see the abomination they caused

the only time christ got mad in the bible was when the religious/state power structure turned the temple into a marketplace

something to think about

Counterfit

Mar 15, 2004, 11:17 PM

But when these people who are supposed to represent God are so COMPLETELY flawed and corrupt it's time to tear down the house and start from scratch. Would you burn down a house based on the actions of the owner/renter/dweller? If there were any shame or humility as we might see in a devout monk, the church would be on it's knees begging forgiveness from God publicly, assuring mankind that they can make an example of themselves, but there is no such thing in this powerful political machine as humbleness. What a disgrace. If this were done by any other orginization the public would demand some form of justice. Way to ignore the news. Many many people have been calling for justice for those that covered the recent stuff up (Cardinal Law for example). not to mention the Pope's public apologies and the gathering of U.S. bishops to prevent this from happening in the future. But apparently that doesn't fit your view, so I guess it's worthless.

numediaman

Mar 16, 2004, 08:20 AM

I would like to know this:

how many Mac users profess strong faith just prior to downloading the latest OS update? how many profess absolutely no faith right about booting up and finding a black screen? how many say they are agnositic after restarting and finding that, despite a bug or two, their Mac seems to be fine?

Krizoitz

Mar 16, 2004, 08:40 AM

Krizoitz

Mar 16, 2004, 08:42 AM

is it just me or does psuedo get offended by everything?

btw im a born again cristian

yes, next question :)

railthinner

Mar 16, 2004, 10:08 AM

Would you burn down a house based on the actions of the owner/renter/dweller? Way to ignore the news. Many many people have been calling for justice for those that covered the recent stuff up (Cardinal Law for example). not to mention the Pope's public apologies and the gathering of U.S. bishops to prevent this from happening in the future. But apparently that doesn't fit your view, so I guess it's worthless.

Well, I won't be burning down anyone's house. But in theory, probably YES! (disclaimer: totally depends on circumstances) How many US soldiers and innocent Iraqi citizens have died in the past year to oust Hussein?

You're right it IS worthless. Like the Pope.

jelloshotsrule

Mar 16, 2004, 11:03 AM

Well, I won't be burning down anyone's house. But in theory, probably YES! (disclaimer: totally depends on circumstances) How many US soldiers and innocent Iraqi citizens have died in the past year to oust Hussein?

You're right it IS worthless. Like the Pope.

oddly enough, the pope seems to share your views on the war...

in fact, he condemned it as basically a crime against humanity. that is why i, a catholic, find it so disturbing that so many catholics are such strong supporters of gwb...

as for my faith. i'm a catholic who disagrees with many of the church's traditional teachings... i'm not 100% "pro-life"... i believe you can "be saved" without ever even acknowledging god... but that's me.

railthinner

Mar 16, 2004, 11:22 AM

jelloshotsrule

Mar 16, 2004, 11:33 AM

My last comment sure was snide.

I thought the Catholic Churches statement on the war was one of the greatest positions I had heard anyone take. In fact their whole outline for what is a just war seemed so perfect it's a shame all nations don't abide by something similar. Wow, they're not all bad I know. There are just some things I can't get past. Not that it has any great significance in my life so I'll stop here with the negative statements to avoid bothering anyone here who continues in that faith for their own personal reasons.

well i think the thing to keep in mind is that the church today is made up of human beings who screw up... even the pope is not perfect 100% of the time (there's a huge process that goes into him making an "infallible" declaration or whatever, and they're usually on dogmatic issues...). just like any organization or group, there are problems... and being a catholic myself, i see many many problems with the church... so just know that there are at least a few catholics out there who would like to try to keep the church honest and not accept the child molestation, gay bashing, etc... though admittedly, the numbers are far fewer than i'd like...

idkew

Mar 16, 2004, 11:57 AM

religion doesn't cause death. Hatred, fear, bigotry those cause death. Anyone who claims that their religion makes them kill people, imo is using it as an excuse to do something awful.

crusades?

aswitcher

Mar 16, 2004, 01:40 PM

crusades?

Yep, that was three or four of excuses to the problem of land turned into a holy war. And then they were victims of their own sucecss and then failure. But at least the legacy of their work hasn't been an ongoing problem... ;)

Counterfit

Mar 16, 2004, 05:38 PM

I can only think of one good thing to come out the crusades: Arabic Math spreading to Europe.

wait a second, I'm not so sure that's a good thing ;)

TheMacOS.com

Mar 16, 2004, 09:42 PM

trebblekicked

Mar 16, 2004, 11:05 PM

Counterfit

Mar 16, 2004, 11:18 PM

their is a war on Christianity here in the USA.... being waged by the left wing liberals/democrats...

Everyone is anti-God... anti-christmas.... it's a shame... I thought this country was free? The freedom to express one's own thoughts and views? Freedom of religion? Sure don't seem that way sometimes... I am sick and tired of this crap being spewn forth. :mad: Do you have any idea of the religious makeup of the major political parties? I would hazard a guess that at least 50% of the Democratic party is made up of Christians, and I think that's a rather low figure. So using my guess, and your logic, we would have Christians fighting against Christianity. That doesn't make much sense does it?

And if you pull out the "America was founded as a Christian nation" line... :rolleyes:

beat ya to it trebble :p

Krizoitz

Mar 17, 2004, 12:20 AM

I am sick and tired of this crap being spewn forth. :mad: Do you have any idea of the religious makeup of the major political parties? I would hazard a guess that at least 50% of the Democratic party is made up of Christians, and I think that's a rather low figure. So using my guess, and your logic, we would have Christians fighting against Christianity. That doesn't make much sense does it?

And if you pull out the "America was founded as a Christian nation" line... :rolleyes:

I will be the first to admit that the religious right has for many many generations soiled the name of Christians everywhere by being close-minded bigoted and hateful all in the name of a faith that teaches love forgiveness and compassion.

I do understand where TheMacOS.com is coming from though I don't think its quite as extreme. It is frustrating to have your faith constantly ridiculed and belittled. In my case I am Catholic. We have all seen the problem that has emerged with the case of child-abusers in the church, and while it is a big problem and shouldn't now nor should it have been in the past ignored, it is being used by many to paint this huge picture of all priests and my faith in general as supporting this kind of behavior. Nothing could be further from the truth. These actions are by a small small small minority of disturbed people and the fools who tried to cover it up. I tell you that after the victims and their families the next most outraged group of people are American Catholics. These people are hurting not only the inviduals involved but the entire image of what is a good organization who does good works.

And that is just one example where the media has made it seem like every priest is doing this, when again its a minute percentage. Those who are guilty should be punished, we all agree to that, but you don't see the education system coming under attack when a few teachers have sex with students? In those cases the blame falls on the people involved, as it should.

I have friends who are agnositc, pagan, etc. and I know that they certainly don't have it easy sometimes. I have friends who are minorities, I gaurentee that they don't have it easy sometimes, but religion is still something that people persecute for as well, even if its Christianity. Its not as absurd a complaint as you might think, maybe TheMacOS exagerates, bu t not knowing his specific circumstances I can't really say.

Counterfit

Mar 17, 2004, 12:37 AM

I will be the first to admit that the religious right has for many many generations soiled the name of Christians everywhere by being close-minded bigoted and hateful all in the name of a faith that teaches love forgiveness and compassion.

I do understand where TheMacOS.com is coming from though I don't think its quite as extreme. It is frustrating to have your faith constantly ridiculed and belittled. In my case I am Catholic. We have all seen the problem that has emerged with the case of child-abusers in the church, and while it is a big problem and shouldn't now nor should it have been in the past ignored, it is being used by many to paint this huge picture of all priests and my faith in general as supporting this kind of behavior. Nothing could be further from the truth. These actions are by a small small small minority of disturbed people and the fools who tried to cover it up. I tell you that after the victims and their families the next most outraged group of people are American Catholics. These people are hurting not only the inviduals involved but the entire image of what is a good organization who does good works.

And that is just one example where the media has made it seem like every priest is doing this, when again its a minute percentage. Those who are guilty should be punished, we all agree to that, but you don't see the education system coming under attack when a few teachers have sex with students? In those cases the blame falls on the people involved, as it should.

I have friends who are agnositc, pagan, etc. and I know that they certainly don't have it easy sometimes. I have friends who are minorities, I gaurentee that they don't have it easy sometimes, but religion is still something that people persecute for as well, even if its Christianity. Its not as absurd a complaint as you might think, maybe TheMacOS exagerates, bu t not knowing his specific circumstances I can't really say. What I take issue with is his assertion that it's solely the liberals and Democrats, and all of them at that, that are attacking Christianity. The radical right wingers certainly aren't helping much, in that their views are so extreme, they're having a similar effect as Al Queda and other extremist Muslims are having on some peoples perception of Islam.

jelloshotsrule

Mar 17, 2004, 07:28 AM

sorry, but i think the religion of islam is being attacked far more than christianity.... and yes, a reminder, i'm christian (catholic)

Savage Henry

Mar 17, 2004, 07:53 AM

sorry, but i think the religion of islam is being attacked far more than christianity.... and yes, a reminder, i'm christian (catholic)

Although I'm trying to avoid the bunfight here, but is that actually a measurable assertion based on quantifiable evidence?

jefhatfield

Mar 17, 2004, 08:01 AM

I am a "christian in training" as I like to say. :)

good thing I can't get killed for that here in the USA... not yet anyway....

their is a war on Christianity here in the USA.... being waged by the left wing liberals/democrats...

Everyone is anti-God... anti-christmas.... it's a shame... I thought this country was free? The freedom to express one's own thoughts and views? Freedom of religion? Sure don't seem that way sometimes...

too many special interest groups and politicians... looking out for the interests of the few....

Hey, want a good christian web site? A friend runs it...

www.nsgn.net

mabe i'll see you there sometime? ;)

the left wing liberals are trying to keep a separation between church and state and that is good and the reason why we have freedom of religion in the first place...it is why nobody kills you for believing what you choose

but there are some left wing liberals who are god haters but they are in the minority...the small group of anti-god zealots on the left make the rest of the liberals/democrats look bad

i am a christian but i am also a democrat and i can tell you, i am not out to stamp out freedom of religion...what would be nice for public school would be to have a moment of silence so the child could do whatever they want...pray to the christian god, the muslim god, no god, or just hang out and reflect on one's thoughts

i find it preposterous that a child could be suspended for praying to god

i find it preposterous that a teacher can get fired for talking about creationism

there are also some religious zealots on the right who wreck the name of christianity for american christians...they talk about the love of christ but have nothing but hate, bigotry, and an irrational bloodlust...they are america's al qaeda and are nothing more than terrorists hiding behind a christian facade

in the end, america is not dominated by hateful atheists on the left or hateful fundamentalists on the right and the media loves to play up to the extremes because they outrage the majority of us and up the ratings for the network

jelloshotsrule

Mar 17, 2004, 10:49 AM

Although I'm trying to avoid the bunfight here, but is that actually a measurable assertion based on quantifiable evidence?

no of course not. is the "america hates christians" a measurable assertion based on quantifiable evidence?

tell me this... who is more likely to get made fun of or jeered on the street... joe whitey christian wearing a little cross around their neck... or a muslim woman wearing full head scarf, etc?

Sayhey

Mar 17, 2004, 11:15 AM

Although I'm trying to avoid the bunfight here, but is that actually a measurable assertion based on quantifiable evidence?

Yes. From the 2002 FBI Hate Crime Statistics (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#hate):

Anti-Jewish bias accounted for 65.9 percent of the 1,576 reported offenses rooted in religious bias. Anti-Islamic bias made up 10.8 percent of these types of offenses, and bias against other unspecified religious groups (anti-other religion) made up 13.8 percent. Of the remainder, 3.7 percent of the offenses were anti-Catholic, 3.6 percent were anti-Protestant, 2.0 percent were against groups made up of multiple religions (anti-multiple religions, group), and 0.2 percent were anti-atheism or anti-agnosticism.

While it doesn't give a total picture of religious bigotry in our country it is a helpful starting point. I would remind people that the figures should be viewed in the context of the percentage of population each religious group represents.

bryanc

Mar 17, 2004, 12:00 PM

My understanding is similar to yours - agnostics think it is impossible to tell if God is present, while atheists do not believe that God is present. But why are all agnostics atheists? If you think it is impossible to know, that doesn't always lead to not believing, I would think.

There is a subtle, but very important, logical distinction between the statements "I believe there is no god" and "I don't believe there is a god".
Both of these are expressions of atheism, however, the first is a statement of belief, whereas the latter is a statement of *lack* of belief.

In philosophy, these are referred to as 'strong atheism' (belief that there is no god) and 'weak atheism' (lack of belief in any god). The first is a faith (because we cannot prove god does not exist, so the adherent believes in absence of proof = faith), whereas the second is an absence of faith. I am of the latter persuasion. I could be convinced of the existence of god (or invisible pink space pixies, or honest politicians, or whatever unlikely sort of thing you might want), but I will need evidence.

So anyone who has no belief in god is an atheist. They can also be agnostics, if they, like me, accept that we can't *know* god does not exist, but currently hold no belief in that entity because they are not convinced. So I think of god in the same way I think of Santa or the ToothFairy...something I can't prove the non-existence of, but something that is almost certainly an imaginary entity.

Hope that clarifies.

Cheers

jelloshotsrule

Mar 17, 2004, 12:07 PM

Yes. From the 2002 FBI Hate Crime Statistics (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#hate):

While it doesn't give a total picture of religious bigotry in our country it is a helpful starting point. I would remind people that the figures should be viewed in the context of the percentage of population each religious group represents.

wow. thanks for that... pretty convincing numbers given, as you mentioned, how small a % of the population is islamic, and jewish... and how much is christian...

bryanc

Mar 17, 2004, 12:17 PM

Might want to check those facts again.

I think the percentage of "Christians" is hovering somewhere around 60%. Nowhere even close to 90%. :rolleyes:

It depends entirely on who's stats you believe...similarly, the proportion of mac users may be much higher than the purchase stats the IDC uses suggests (because people tend to keep their macs much longer, and organizations buying cheap machines to use as cashregisters or other single-function machines will generally buy cheap PCs).

I happen to have the 2001 Canadian statistics handy: 75% of Canadians subscribe to some sect of Christianity (mostly RC), 9% subscribe to other religions, and 16% subscribed to no religion. The United States is a much more religious country than Canada (probably the most religious of all developed nations), but you're probably right that the proportion of Christians is less than 90%.

I should've said 90% of people (in the US) are religious and 90% of people use PCs.

Cheers

Counterfit

Mar 17, 2004, 12:54 PM

sorry, but i think the religion of islam is being attacked far more than christianity.... and yes, a reminder, i'm christian (catholic) I never said one group was being attacked more than the other. I meant that the actions of the extremists is skewing some peoples view of what a particular religion stands for.

jefhatfield

Mar 17, 2004, 01:00 PM

It depends entirely on who's stats you believe...similarly, the proportion of mac users may be much higher than the purchase stats the IDC uses suggests (because people tend to keep their macs much longer, and organizations buying cheap machines to use as cashregisters or other single-function machines will generally buy cheap PCs).

I happen to have the 2001 Canadian statistics handy: 75% of Canadians subscribe to some sect of Christianity (mostly RC), 9% subscribe to other religions, and 16% subscribed to no religion. The United States is a much more religious country than Canada (probably the most religious of all developed nations), but you're probably right that the proportion of Christians is less than 90%.

I should've said 90% of people (in the US) are religious and 90% of people use PCs.

Cheers

if you look at infant baptisms, church membership, kids in religiously affiliated schools, and add in all the people who say they are christians, then america looks very christian with millions of catholics and millions of protestants

but then ask many of those people, is there really a god or did jesus christ christ die for YOUR sins, then i suspect that number drops way down

many could know nothing of jesus christ and not even believe in god but still go to church...that was me growing up and many i have met through life...and as we grow older, many of us go through public high school and public college and we are not taught of religion/christianity per se and any doubts one may have had about god/christianity grow

i think in reality, and in everyday practice, america is really a secular humanist nation and much of christianity is merely cultural and lip service...that being said, i am not saying we are a satanistic, evil, purely material culture of all out hedonists...no, those people live in shopping malls ;)

bryanc

Mar 17, 2004, 01:17 PM

...america looks very christian...

Speaking as a Canadian, when I was working down there (Seattle), I was *amazed* at how much more religious people were, and at how much more visible the religiosity of the country was. It really surprised me, as I, like most Canadians, thought the US was culturally very similar to Canada. But, based on my limited experience, I would certainly say that the US is a much more religious, violent, and money-driven culture than ours.

This is not to say I don't like Americans...I was also surprised at how friendly people were down there, and made several very good friends.

But I do find your culture a bit scary :-(

Cheers

jefhatfield

Mar 17, 2004, 01:53 PM

first of all, if americans were so religious, in reality, would we be so prone to violence and greed?

i think having god in our lives would make us a rather peaceful nation...there are a lot of fake christians here

and yes, america does scare me but one good thing about our country is that it is expected for us to complain and constantly improve on our democracy...tear down, rebuild, tear down, rebuild and while it's a painful process, our country grows and improves

we were once a model for the rest of the world, and i will be the first to admit that much of europe, japan, and canada are currently more civilized than us .. maybe it's still the last remnants of the billy the kid in us or our almost sexual fetish for guns ;)

mactastic

Mar 17, 2004, 03:30 PM

Is it true that agnostics are atheists with no balls? ;)

One of my favorite bumper stickers: "Militant Agnostic. I don't know and you don't either."

And what happened to all the Turtolitarians? Are they not allowed to post here?

Savage Henry

Mar 17, 2004, 03:36 PM

Yes. From the 2002 FBI Hate Crime Statistics (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#hate):

While it doesn't give a total picture of religious bigotry in our country it is a helpful starting point. I would remind people that the figures should be viewed in the context of the percentage of population each religious group represents.

Man, that is some document. But I agree with you and think that it's a tad dangerous to rely on statistics on a subject so sensitive.

jennyjennydz

Mar 17, 2004, 03:41 PM

Define God and I'll tell you whether I believe in God.

WAR IS PEACE
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

Savage Henry

Mar 17, 2004, 03:43 PM

Define God and I'll tell you whether I believe in God.

WAR IS PEACE
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

At least quote the source as being from the pen of the great Eric Blair.

jennyjennydz

Mar 17, 2004, 03:58 PM

At least quote the source as being from the pen of the great Eric Blair.

Orwell lost the attribution when he named names.

http://www.orwell.ru/a_life/list/e/e_list.htm

FWIW, the God quote isn't from Orwell...just the INGSOC slogan is.

--

WAR IS PEACE
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

jennyjennydz

Mar 17, 2004, 04:10 PM

Not to mention that any informed socialist like Orwell (or communist/anarchist/libertarian/etc.) would reject without hesitation the notion of attribution in this sense.

--

WAR IS PEACE
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

Savage Henry

Mar 17, 2004, 04:22 PM

Orwell lost the attribution when he named names.

http://www.orwell.ru/a_life/list/e/e_list.htm

FWIW, the God quote isn't from Orwell...just the INGSOC slogan is.

--

WAR IS PEACE
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

Yeah, but the 'naming' was steeped in bed-ridden Outer Hebridian bitterness. If I get that sick and annoyingly incapable I can't think I'll exactly be Mary Poppins.

And the 'revelation' came out 8 years ago, so it's not as though it's only just rocked the literary world.

I knew the God one wasn't Orwell's, but I do certainly like it, so please don't get me wrong on that one.

jennyjennydz

Mar 17, 2004, 04:38 PM

Yeah, but the 'naming' was steeped in bed-ridden Outer Hebridian bitterness. If I get that sick and annoyingly incapable I can't think I'll exactly be Mary Poppins.

And the 'revelation' came out 8 years ago, so it's not as though it's only just rocked the literary world.

I knew the God one wasn't Orwell's, but I do certainly like it, so please don't get me wrong on that one.

I love that -- "Outer Hebridian bitterness." Very nice.

Do you know if they've revealed publically the names of the 30+ people on the lists who are still alive? Such things never make the news in my backwords corner of America.

I have to go look up the God one. It's the first half of a philosophic quote I learned once upon a time in grad school. The second half is basically this...

Smart a..: Define God and I'll tell you whether I believe in God.
Not so smart a..: God is blah blah blah. <--- insert anything.
Smart a..: A God defined is a God limited. God is unlimited so I do not believe your God.

Not exact, my memory is hampered by ESPN at present.

--

WAR IS PEACE
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

vniow

Mar 17, 2004, 04:50 PM

And what happened to all the Turtolitarians? Are they not allowed to post here?

Sure we are, we've just been a bit busy pissing on things. Its election (well, in the minds of the general public) year ya know.

jelloshotsrule

Mar 17, 2004, 05:07 PM

I never said one group was being attacked more than the other. I meant that the actions of the extremists is skewing some peoples view of what a particular religion stands for.

sorry, didn't meant to be responding to you, but rather "themacos" or whatever the name is...

i agree with most of what you said (from what i remember.) :)

Counterfit

Mar 17, 2004, 08:19 PM

sorry, didn't meant to be responding to you, but rather "themacos" or whatever the name is...

i agree with most of what you said (from what i remember.) :) K-diddly ;)

jenny and henry: This isn't the "Orwell fans" thread :p

Neserk

Mar 17, 2004, 08:34 PM

Your title is: Mac Fans and their Faith yet you only want to know about Christians... aren't there any other Faith's out there?

Neserk

Mar 17, 2004, 08:35 PM

Is it true that agnostics are atheists with no balls? ;)

Personally, I think Agnostics are the most honest group. They realize that the existance of God is beyond proof are disproof... and understanding thus don't try to claim that there is absolutely a god or that their absolutely is not a god...

Neserk

Mar 17, 2004, 08:42 PM

I am a "christian in training" as I like to say. :)

good thing I can't get killed for that here in the USA... not yet anyway....

their is a war on Christianity here in the USA.... being waged by the left wing liberals/democrats...

:rolleyes: Any so-called persucution that Christians in the US experience is simply a back lash of people being sick of them trying to take over the country that is not a theocracy although they certainly would like it to be...

Everyone is anti-God... anti-christmas.... it's a shame... I thought this country was free? The freedom to express one's own thoughts and views? Freedom of religion? Sure don't seem that way sometimes...

Where do you live? I have yet to see any large number of people who were anti-God or anti-Christmas. The problem is that many Christians seem to think that only their version of relgion should be expressed... so they start to feel persecuted when other people of other relgions try to express theirs, too.

too many special interest groups and politicians... looking out for the interests of the few....

My mom has something to say about this: Now is that what the bible teaches us? She was good at that. She has a pretty good understanding about what the bible teaches us is important and certainly looking out for the rights of minorities is one of them! Something Jesus did repeatedly.

Hey, want a good christian web site? A friend runs it...

www.nsgn.net

mabe i'll see you there sometime? ;)

this is why you are being "persecuted" always trying to convert people...

Neserk

Mar 17, 2004, 08:45 PM

It is frustrating to have your faith constantly ridiculed and belittled. In my case I am Catholic. We have all seen the problem that has emerged with the case of child-abusers in the church, and while it is a big problem and shouldn't now nor should it have been in the past ignored, it is being used by many to paint this huge picture of all priests and my faith in general as supporting this kind of behavior. .

Catholics get it especially bad... I would say that Catholics are persecuted, particularly by protestants (I'm not Catholic and never have been, for the record). But I do see a lot of on-line Catholic bashing..

Neserk

Mar 17, 2004, 08:49 PM

what would be nice for public school would be to have a moment of silence so the child could do whatever they want...pray to the christian god, the muslim god, no god, or just hang out and reflect on one's thoughts

i find it preposterous that a child could be suspended for praying to god

I never understood this I prayed from the time I started Kindergarten until the day I graduated from high school in school I never once was told not to. Although that could be because I prayed privately, not making a big deal of it... who needs a freakin' moment of silence? You can pray anywhere, anytime! It is ridiculous that people don't even realize what prayer is or else jump on a bandwagon claiming that you can't pray in school when you CAN! Can you lead a prayer with a class? No! And you shouldn't be able to, either. But no teacher I know or have known has *ever* stopped a child from a private prayer... nor would they... even those who pray before lunch. And I believe Jesus tells us to prayer privately in a closet, not out in the open for all to see.

Neserk

Mar 17, 2004, 08:51 PM

I never said one group was being attacked more than the other. I meant that the actions of the extremists is skewing some peoples view of what a particular religion stands for.

And you are correct. The squeaky wheel get the oil! Right? So those making the biggest asses out of themselves or breaking the law are the ones who get the attention. Those who quietly live out their faith in peace with others don't get news stories!

jefhatfield

Mar 17, 2004, 09:46 PM

I never understood this I prayed from the time I started Kindergarten until the day I graduated from high school in school I never once was told not to. Although that could be because I prayed privately, not making a big deal of it... who needs a freakin' moment of silence? You can pray anywhere, anytime! It is ridiculous that people don't even realize what prayer is or else jump on a bandwagon claiming that you can't pray in school when you CAN! Can you lead a prayer with a class? No! And you shouldn't be able to, either. But no teacher I know or have known has *ever* stopped a child from a private prayer... nor would they... even those who pray before lunch. And I believe Jesus tells us to prayer privately in a closet, not out in the open for all to see.

in my time in school late 60s to 1982, i don't recall seeing anyone suspended for praying...but then the christian conservatives were not butting into secular politics and making enemies out of most of america

so there doesn't have to be a set time, but i would like to see children have the right and not get suspended like i have heard of in the news from time to time

it is true that praying, speaking in tongues, donating, and evangelism (most of the time) is to be done in private...real christianity is a personal relationship with god, not gaining riches or position playing high in the gop

Neserk

Mar 17, 2004, 09:52 PM

in my time in school late 60s to 1982, i don't recall seeing anyone suspended for praying...but then the christian conservatives were not butting into secular politics and making enemies out of most of america

VEry true... I was in school from 75-88...

so there doesn't have to be a set time, but i would like to see children have the right and not get suspended like i have heard of in the news from time to time

The news exaggerates and distorts. My sister who homeschools her children has all kinds of crazy notions about what is happening in public schools today. I couldn't believe some of the stuff she was telling me! Keep in mind I spend 5 days a week in various different elementary schools and have seen *none* of it. I'm not sure where she is getting her info from...

real christianity is a personal relationship with god, not gaining riches or position playing high in the gop

Thank you! Someone who understands!

pdrayton

Mar 19, 2004, 06:25 PM

..I was interested to know who here is a Christian. If you don't have any faith then, cool, you don't have to bother replying, as I'll assume this by default. Or if you follow another faith then feel free to start your own thread !

I do think the entire question was framed awkwardly... next time try to be a bit more polite when posting on a global forum.

Anyway, in keeping with the spirit of the poster, I'm: Christian, Epsicopalian and member of a parish founded in 1732 (a parish quite proud of kicking the King of England's ass in 1776).

Peace