I can't believe the Spanish people have "acted" so cowardly.

[amberashby]

Notice that I am saying "acted", for one cowardly act does not make a "coward". I am however disturbed at how al Qaida has achieved a victory against the Spanish people. Not in the murderous, inhumane Madrid train bombing, but the reaction of the Spanish people in turning their support towards a political party that will have a "hands off" approach to terrorism. Exactly what al Qaida was hoping for.

Why don't they "get it"?

[javabear90]

I agree, also they are pulling out of Iraq -- another thing that al quda wanted. tsk tsk tsk

[wordmunger]

Notice that I am saying "acted", for one cowardly act does not make a "coward". I am however disturbed at how al Qaida has achieved a victory against the Spanish people. Not in the murderous, inhumane Madrid train bombing, but the reaction of the Spanish people in turning their support towards a political party that will have a "hands off" approach to terrorism. Exactly what al Qaida was hoping for.

Why don't they "get it"?

I agree, it looks bad. However, the government didn't look too good either by trying to pin the March 11 attacks on ETA. They made the noose that hung them.

[virividox]

remember 90% of the spanish people did not want to get involved with iraq to begin with and the previous PM screwed them over and went along with the coalition

they have the right to chose a leader who will voice their opinions, i dont think its a cowardly act, they just want a leader who will represent them

[Mark James]

An Eta atrocity better suited the purposes of the People's Party, so that's what the PP declared it to be. Once it became apparent that there was at least a strong possibility that the bombs were the work of Muslim groups, the Spanish electorate responded with justifiable anger to the outgoing government's self-serving lies and voted them out.

A large majority of the Spanish people were opposed to Spain's complicity in the United States' invasion of Iraq. That's not cowardice. There might be a degree of 'let's not draw atttention to ourselves' there, but the overriding Spanish (and pan-European) response was that a US invasion of Iraq a) had *nothing* to do with the war on terror, b) would create more terrorists than it destroyed, and b) was both illegal and immoral.

That said, it's unfortunate that the incoming Socialists have so quickly committed to withdrawing Spanish troops. 'We' have made this mess, and 'we' are obliged to try and sort it out rather than running away from the problems.

[amberashby]

An Eta atrocity better suited the purposes of the People's Party, so that's what the PP declared it to be. Once it became apparent that there was at least a strong possibility that the bombs were the work of Muslim groups, the Spanish electorate responded with justifiable anger to the outgoing government's self-serving lies and voted them out.

A large majority of the Spanish people were opposed to Spain's complicity in the United States' invasion of Iraq. That's not cowardice. There might be a degree of 'let's not draw atttention to ourselves' there, but the overriding Spanish (and pan-European) response was that a US invasion of Iraq a) had *nothing* to do with the war on terror, b) would create more terrorists than it destroyed, and b) was both illegal and immoral.

That said, it's unfortunate that the incoming Socialists have so quickly committed to withdrawing Spanish troops. 'We' have made this mess, and 'we' are obliged to try and sort it out rather than running away from the problems.

You made some good points, but if Osama's henchmen try and pull something like this in the US prior to our election it will have the opposite effect. Bush will beat the socialist party in a landslide (just joking. no flames please). But seriously, I believe Bush would win handily if there would be another terror attack in the US.

[miloblithe]

Why do you think that Bush would win if there was another attack in the U.S.? Wouldn't that prove he's doing a poor job _protecting_ us?

[SiliconAddict]

Well first off this should be in the Political / War discussion section.

Beyond that.

They do get it. It's just you and some American's ideas that they have to Bush and Dick with every country on the planet that doesn't "get" it.

No one ever asked the question after 9/11. Why has al Qaida been fighting a war against the US? This anti-freedom crap that Bushies spew forth is just that. Crap. The US pushes everyone in the world around. They take sides in conflicts that we shouldn't be Bush and Dicking with. Well for once someone pushed back beyond simple stamping of feet, gnashing of teeth, and their diplomats screeching like apes.
The thing is its one thing to target the leaders of a country or the military. It’s another when you target innocent civilians but I guess it all works out in the end because how many civilians did the US kill in the war/s in Afghanistan and Iraq? I can guarantee that, that "collateral damage" accounted to way more the 3,000 people. (Ahh silly me I forgot. 10 foreigners equal 1 American in terms of value.) All those people wanted to do was go about their lives. Guess they can't do that anymore. And will anyone in the US be held accountable for those deaths? Nope because we have a manifest destiny to Bush and Dick with any country we want on this planet.
Lets face it. The only option against the US anymore is not direct conflict. No country other then possibly China and maybe Russia (Though Russia isn't what it use to be in terms of military power.) are the only countries that can take on the US in a full-blown war. Either that or if they entire world grew a set and took on the US as one collective force. Wow that would be a sight. The collective world saying enough of America's BS.

Look. After 9/11 if you had given me a gun and set me in front of an al Qaida operative I would have blow his damn head off and gone on to watch an episode of the Simpson's and laughed my head off without thinking twice about it. Thou shalt not kill my ass. I would have killed the bastard. Maybe even line a few of them up in a row and avoid wasting bullets. Once I cooled down I did what many seem incapable of doing. THINKING. Trying to understand why. Do I side with al Qaida? Hell no. Their acts deserve total extermination. But I can at least understand the hatred and reasoning.
If we want to end terrorism the first step is to step back from the world stage and stop Bush and Dicking with other countries. Until that happens there will always be a person willing to give their life to **** over the US no matter how many centurions..oops sorry wrong empire..soldiers you send around the world. Our very actions are what causes the propagation of terrorism.

[SiliconAddict]

Why do you think that Bush would win if there was another attack in the U.S.? Wouldn't that prove he's doing a poor job _protecting_ us?

Wouldn't matter. It would validate all the crap he has put us and the world through the last few years.

I had another thought the other day, What if there was a massive strike in Iraq 2 days before election which resulted in several hundred soldiers dead? That could be enough to sway a large number of voters away from Bush.

The thing is I doubt any resistance in Iraq knows the ins and outs of the American political system well enough to realize this.

[Mark James]

I believe Bush would win handily if there would be another terror attack in the US.
I think you're right. The US electorate believes that a hawkish government and a military response can eradicate terrorism, whereas European electorates believe that military intervention will just exacerbate the problem. It's a very fundamental difference between Old World and New World, and I suspect it boils down to the fact that religious beliefs and attitudes are still a force in the US. An eye for an eye, etc...

[jxyama]

i presume that the o.p. is an american...

did you ever stop to think "what did we (americans) do to them (anti-american terrorists) that would instill so much hatred?" 9/11 didn't happen in a void. we are at least partially responsible for instilling that hatred to begin with.

if there's another attack on america, it has to do with both american failure on intelligence AND contunued ignorance of the united states to even try to understand that we are a part of the problem.

it's not "us against them" and how spain is "moving away from us."

[wordmunger]

how many civilians did the US kill in the war/s in Afghanistan and Iraq? I can guarantee that, that "collateral damage" accounted to way more the 3,000 people. (Ahh silly me I forgot. 10 foreigners equal 1 American in terms of value.) All those people wanted to do was go about their lives. Guess they can't do that anymore. And will anyone in the US be held accountable for those deaths? Nope because we have a manifest destiny to Bush and Dick with any country we want on this planet.

In the first place, I think it's important to separate Afghanistan from Iraq. I tend agree with your sentiments about Iraq, but in Afghanistan, I disagree. The U.S. has every right to attack a country that harbors terrorists who murder its citizens. Every effort was made to curtail civilian deaths, but mistakes happen, people are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Unfortunately they live in a country that was controlled by religious zealots who resorted to cowardly murder to achieve their goals. Live in a place like that, and you're likely to get involved in a war. I feel bad for the people who died or lost family members, but I also feel bad for those who lost their lives or loved ones in the World Trade Center. Yeah, war sucks, but sometimes a war happens for the right reasons, and Afghanistan was one of those wars.

[Mark James]

Unfortunately they live in a country that was controlled by religious zealots who resorted to cowardly murder to achieve their goals.
Hmmmm. Sounds vaguely familiar.

[AhmedFaisal]

Well first off this should be in the Political / War discussion section.

Beyond that.

<SNIP a lot of truth>



Is it possible??? You are a US citizen? I guess there is still hope. You hit the nail on the proverbial head.
Now, while all that is right, what do we do about it? I am glad that goddamned liar Aznar got the response from the voters he deserved, however I hope the new government is smart enough to do whatever they do in a way that it doesn't encourage Al Kaida to think blowing **** up gets them what they want. I believe firmly however that Zapatero is realist enough not to make that mistake. He will hopefully agree to the European Constitution unlike Aznar who was the biggest obstacle to its ratification. He will hopefully also take a more diplomatic stance on military issues allowing the European Community to finally get its act together and act as one entity (again Aznar was the biggest obstacle to that). He will not just simply withdraw from Iraq but add to the pressure on the US to do a better job in Iraq and that Cheney stops feeding his buddies with contracts.
On the "rest of Europe" side I hope this brings about the realization that we are a target and that we have to handle certain issues differently. Meaning on one hand we have to embrace those of Muslim faith among our citizens that are law abiding, tolerant and moderate while we have to drastically crack down and deport those who spread fundamentalist believes and hatred. It is absurd that a student at the University of Colone can run a website on a University Server that preaches Djihad and death to the infidels without getting in trouble and living his life there on german taxpayers money. At the same time we need to take a close look at how companies that we allow to sell products in our market conduct themselves in other countries. It is not acceptable that companies like Shell and Exxon financially support dictators and terrorists in Africa to get cheap access to their natural resources or topple other governments to bring those to power they hope will return the favor.
Cheers,

Ahmed

[amberashby]

i presume that the o.p. is an american...

did you ever stop to think "what did we (americans) do to them (anti-american terrorists) that would instill so much hatred?" 9/11 didn't happen in a void. we are at least partially responsible for instilling that hatred to begin with.

if there's another attack on america, it has to do with both american failure on intelligence AND contunued ignorance of the united states to even try to understand that we are a part of the problem.

it's not "us against them" and how spain is "moving away from us."

Why do you insist on justifying terrorist acts? There is no justification. There is no "what makes them do this"? They are CRAZY, INSANE, and they don't think rationally. They commit suicide while killing thousands of innocent people and you think you can deal with them in a rational way? The only solution is to exterminate them one by one. No one will ever convince me otherwise.

[AhmedFaisal]

In the first place, I think it's important to separate Afghanistan from Iraq. I tend agree with your sentiments about Iraq, but in Afghanistan, I disagree. The U.S. has every right to attack a country that harbors terrorists who murder its citizens. Every effort was made to curtail civilian deaths, but mistakes happen, people are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Unfortunately they live in a country that was controlled by religious zealots who resorted to cowardly murder to achieve their goals. Live in a place like that, and you're likely to get involved in a war. I feel bad for the people who died or lost family members, but I also feel bad for those who lost their lives or loved ones in the World Trade Center. Yeah, war sucks, but sometimes a war happens for the right reasons, and Afghanistan was one of those wars.

The irony is that the Taliban are a US creation in the first place, same as good old Osama. Both were trained along with other Mujaheddin in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. When the Mujaheddin started fighting against eachother after the Russians were driven out, the US then supported the Taliban financially and strategically because they hoped after Afghanistan was under their control they could get easy access to the Oil and Gas reserves at the Caspian sea. This also goes for fundamentalist movements and uprisings in other former Soviet countries in the Caucasus and around the Caspian sea. The quote applies "The Ghosts I summoned, I can not control"
Cheers,

Ahmed

[dermeister]

Why do you insist on justifying terrorist acts? There is no justification. There is no "what makes them do this"? They are CRAZY, INSANE, and they don't think rationally. They commit suicide while killing thousands of innocent people and you think you can deal with them in a rational way? The only solution is to exterminate them one by one. No one will ever convince me otherwise.
*Claps*

I'm glad not everybody here is absorbed in some stupid idealist dream-world, and spewing crap like "we should take steps to understand alqaida"...

As for spain... They'll get what they deserve. The new socialist government will destroy them just as the left destroyed france... I'm not going to explain this because its really a whole other issue, but people that know what I mean will certainly be able to appreciate the value of the comment.

[AhmedFaisal]

Why do you insist on justifying terrorist acts? There is no justification. There is no "what makes them do this"? They are CRAZY, INSANE, and they don't think rationally. They commit suicide while killing thousands of innocent people and you think you can deal with them in a rational way? The only solution is to exterminate them one by one. No one will ever convince me otherwise.

Because while you kill one terrorist another 10 will be recruited around the corner. Unless you fix the fundamental problems that cause people to become so desperate that they will follow people like Osama bin Laden or whoever will succeed him (and someone always will!) you will not win the war on terror. Its not about dealing with those who are terrorists already. They are lost, but it is about dealing with those that people like bin Laden draw their followers from. Unless you are able to win those for your cause, terror will not go away. And you can win them only if you give them a perspective other than misery and poverty. This applies for Isreal/Palestina, this applies for all those countries where the West installed and supported criminal governments. Those are the breeding grounds for the terror that we experience now!
Cheers,

Ahmed

[amberashby]

Because while you kill one terrorist another 10 will be recruited around the corner. Unless you fix the fundamental problems that cause people to become so desperate that they will follow people like Osama bin Laden or whoever will succeed him (and someone always will!) you will not win the war on terror. Its not about dealing with those who are terrorists already. They are lost, but it is about dealing with those that people like bin Laden draw their followers from. Unless you are able to win those for your cause, terror will not go away. And you can win them only if you give them a perspective other than misery and poverty. This applies for Isreal/Palestina, this applies for all those countries where the West installed and supported criminal governments. Those are the breeding grounds for the terror that we experience now!
Cheers,

Ahmed

I agree that something needs to be done to keep more terrorist from being recruited. Education and public relations needs to be implemented along with extermination. Teach the young people that terrorism is not the answer and NEVER EVER let terrorist intimidate you like they did to Spain. This only makes them stronger.

Peace.....

P.S. I love my Mac.

[AhmedFaisal]

I agree that something needs to be done to keep more terrorist from being recruited. Education and public relations needs to be implemented along with extermination. Teach the young people that terrorism is not the answer and NEVER EVER let terrorist intimidate you like they did to Spain. This only makes them stronger.

Certainly. Then ask George and Dick why they don't do anything about that? So far all they have done is blow **** up. Nationbuilding in Afghanistan is done by Germany and other countries, the US don't contribute **** to that! Same in Iraq. All Dick and his Cronies do is giving contracts to their crooked buddies (Halliburton etc.) but NOTHING is done about stabilizing the situation there. The true cowards are in Washington, not in Madrid, Berlin or Paris.
Cheers,

Ahmed

[toontra]

I am equally shocked at this thread. Does anyone seriously think the Spanish people were bombed into submission by terrorists? Is that what you guys are saying? If so, I suggest you open your minds and stop believing everything you read in the right-wing US press.

I suggest the reasons the vote moved towards the socialist opposition after the bombing were:

1) They didn't appreciate being misled about the likely culprits for the bombing.

2) They realised for all Aznar's talk about fighting terrorism, he'd squandered resources in fighting a pointless war in Iraq (against 90% views of the population) instead of concentrating on "homeland security".

To imply that the Spanish are cowards, as this thread does, is shamefull!

[Stelliform]

they have the right to chose a leader who will voice their opinions, i dont think its a cowardly act, they just want a leader who will represent them

According to CNN, the the polls showed that they vote was going to go the other way the day before the attack. Only after the attack did the vote swing to the opposition. It does appear that the election was decided by the attack.

[amberashby]

I am equally shocked at this thread. Does anyone seriously think the Spanish people were bombed into submission by terrorists? Is that what you guys are saying? If so, I suggest you open your minds and stop believing everything you read in the right-wing US press.

I suggest the reasons the vote moved towards the socialist opposition after the bombing were:

1) They didn't appreciate being misled about the likely culprits for the bombing.

2) They realised for all Aznar's talk about fighting terrorism, he'd squandered resources in fighting a pointless war in Iraq (against 90% views of the population) instead of concentrating on "homeland security".

To imply that the Spanish are cowards, as this thread does, is shamefull!

I never called them cowards, and I do believe that the points you made were also a part of the reason for voting for the Socialist. However, I still think the main reason was intimidation. I've seen quite a few quotes from Spanish voters confirming this. This may not be how a majority of the population thinks, but I do see it as a popular view there.

P.S. Since when is the US press "right-winged"?

[Mark James]

According to CNN, the the polls showed that they vote was going to go the other way the day before the attack. Only after the attack did the vote swing to the opposition. It does appear that the election was decided by the attack.
The Peoples Party *was* on course for re-election, because the invasion of Iraq was not the biggest issue. I know nothing of the domestic mundanities of taxation and benefits but there were questions of Spain's role within the EU and the degree of autonomy enjoyed by Spain's regions. The regional issue was perhaps the most 'passionate', which is why the PP immediately tried to scapegoat Eta.

Had the PP not blamed Eta, and subsequently been 'found out', then they would almost certainly have remained in power. So yes, the election *was* decided by the attack, or more accurately by the PP's ill-judged response to the attack.

[toontra]

I've seen quite a few quotes from Spanish voters confirming this. This may not be how a majority of the population thinks, but I do see it as a popular view there.

P.S. Since when is the US press "right-winged"?

Please give me links to the sources of these quotes and I'll tell you why I think the majority of the US media is right-wing.

[Mark James]

Since when is the US press "right-winged"?
In European terms the Democrats are well to the right of centre. In the UK we now have the unfortunate situation whereby the Labour Party has joined the Conservative Party to the right of centre, with the Liberal Democrats (traditionally the centrist party) drifting to perhaps just left of centre and beginning to offer some interesting quasi-socialist policies (really radical stuff like progressive taxation!).

In the US they shoot socialists, don't they?

:wink:

[amberashby]

One day Ted Kennedy was taking a stroll around the Capitol and he came accross a small boy with a box. "What's in the box?" he asked the young boy. "Kittens!", he proudly responded. "Democrat Kittens" he added with a smile. Ted Kennedy was so amused by the cute young boy and his Democrat kittens that a few days later he grabbed John Kerry to go for a walk and see if the young boy was in his usual spot. Sure enough when they rounded the corner the little boy was there with the same box of kittens. "Watch this" Ted told John as they approached the boy. "Hi young man. I brought a friend of mine over to see your kittens. What kind of kittens are they?" Ted said with a smile. "Republican kittens." the young boy replied to Ted's amazement. "A few days ago you told me they were Democrat kittens." he told the boy. The boy looked at the Senators and replied, "That's before their eyes were open!"

Peace everyone.......I have to get to work. No more posting for me today.

[numediaman]

I am equally shocked at this thread. Does anyone seriously think the Spanish people were bombed into submission by terrorists? Is that what you guys are saying? If so, I suggest you open your minds and stop believing everything you read in the right-wing US press. . .

. . . To imply that the Spanish are cowards, as this thread does, is shamefull!

Imagine how you would feel if you lived here. This thread is, I'm afraid, is an accurate reflection of how the "Fox" segment of America feels.

Few want to consider the fact that 80% of Spaniards were against the war in Iraq, and that there was considerable anger before the bombings on Thursday. Thursday's bombings simply reinforced the notion that Spain's alliance with the U.S. would only makes matters worse. (And they did.)

If you want to combat terrorism then fight Al Qaeda. Iraq had nothing to do with Al Qaeda, or WMD for that matter. The Spanish electorate simply had the opportunity to point that out before the U.S. voter did.

[Sayhey]

The new Spanish PM has said fighting terrorism is his number one priority. How is that giving in to al Qaeda? The Bush administration would have us believe that the war in Iraq and the fight against terrorism are the same thing, but that doesn't make it so. If al Qaeda thinks they have won they should look to the upcoming meetings of EU nations in response to the Madrid bombings and see if a unified approach of all of Europe against them is what they hoped to accomplish. The real lesson, as I said in the other thread on this topic, is not to try to mislead people for political gain. It lead to the downfall of Aznar's party and it will led to a similar fate for Bush if he continues down that line.

[zimv20]

Why do you insist on justifying terrorist acts? There is no justification. There is no "what makes them do this"? They are CRAZY, INSANE, and they don't think rationally.

one cannot expect to defeat an ideal that one does not understand.

terrorism is a political tool, nothing more. case in point in spain -- it may very well be the case that the recent bombings affected the election. so terrorism is an effective political tool.

because it's a political tool, it must be dealt w/ politically. that means understanding the root cause of terrorism and addressing that. to dismiss one's enemies and their (effective yet repulsive) tactics is to lose.

i'm sorry you can only react emotionally to this and not logically.

[jxyama]

i never meant that 9/11 should somehow be justified.

all i said is that we have had parts in stirring intense hatred toward us that ultimately resulted in 9/11. if you honestly believe that we didn't and that these "crazy, insane" people just hate america for the hell of it (for the lack of a better word), then i believe you need some serious history lessons.

i believe that since some of the cause lies in us, in addition to seeking justice externally, we need to do some self-reflection in order to deal with the root of the problem.

and i strongly believe the actions W's taking in the White House are simply adding more to the same old problem and aren't solving much of anything.

[wwworry]

So if there is another attack here I have to put up with another 4 years of lying Bush? If he does a crappy job fighting terrorism I have to give him another chance? No way. Whoever calls the Spainards cowardly for electing who they want is practicing doublespeak.

We got attacked by Al Qaeda and Bush invaded Iraq leaving Ossama at large and Afghanistan in chaos. Sorry but that seems a bit off the mark and not a good job. Bush was warned about Al Qaeda hijackers. What did he do? He went on a month long vacation.

[takao]

Why do you insist on justifying terrorist acts? There is no justification. There is no "what makes them do this"? They are CRAZY, INSANE, and they don't think rationally. They commit suicide while killing thousands of innocent people and you think you can deal with them in a rational way? The only solution is to exterminate them one by one. No one will ever convince me otherwise.

you ever heard about the RAF ? no not the Royal Air Force

"Rote Armee Fraktion" (= "Red Armee Group")
the terrorist group was famous years ago (70-80ties) for assasinations, terroristic attacks,car bombings etc. in germany
they attacked US Army and airforce bases .. attacked a US general with a rocket launcher, kidnapping bankers and killing them ...etc.
what did germans do to win the war against terror ? they found the terrorists and inprisoned them in a normal prison.period. what did they used for that ? military ? nope ..bombs ? nope ... tanks ? nope..
they took terrorism like it should be taken ...as a "home land security thread" ...it took time,the GSG9, improved BKA & BfV (together = like the fbi)
the started the "war against terrorism" not where they got their guns ,grenades or explosives..they started it at home...

using a army for police duties is like using a rocket launcher against a fly on your screen.. it will work but you will end in messing everything up even worse than before

[skunk]

So if there is another attack here I have to put up with another 4 years of lying Bush? If he does a crappy job fighting terrorism I have to give him another chance? No way.
Way, sadly. If there is another attack all the old jingoism and flagwaving will surge back, and everyone will be expected to rally round the old CinC. And I expect they will.

[zimv20]

Way, sadly. If there is another attack all the old jingoism and flagwaving will surge back, and everyone will be expected to rally round the old CinC. And I expect they will.

it's definitely a possibility. but i think it's also possible the opposite will happen. if there's another attack in the US, could bush actually stand up in a debate and claim that his methods are effective against terrorism? i bet there'd be a pretty big backlash, even among those planning on voting for him.

[skunk]

it's definitely a possibility. but i think it's also possible the opposite will happen. if there's another attack in the US, could bush actually stand up in a debate and claim that his methods are effective against terrorism? i bet there'd be a pretty big backlash, even among those planning on voting for him.

I expect any opposition would be labelled pejoratively as "Spanish". "Freedom omelettes" anyone? By the way, how is this going down with all your Hispanic voters?

[zimv20]

how is this going down with all your Hispanic voters?
dunno. maybe the next issue of the Economist will say

[skunk]

dunno. maybe the next issue of the Economist will say
Are you serious? You have to read an English magazine for that?

[zimv20]

Are you serious? You have to read an English magazine for that?
it wasn't completely a joke. i'm not sure the economist will cover how hispanics in america feel about the spanish elections... but it'd be the first place i'd look.

[IJ Reilly]

I expect any opposition would be labelled pejoratively as "Spanish". "Freedom omelettes" anyone? By the way, how is this going down with all your Hispanic voters?

So now we can put Freedom Fly on our Freedom Fries?

Very few hispanic people in the US would consider themselves Spanish or even think of Spain as the mother country.