Why is it so hard to unite a nation for a cause?

[Rebel]

I posed this question in another forum, and this is a reply I received. How do you all feel about it?

From Kenny:
Why are Americans so passive? I think it's because people no longer think for themselves. They have been taught to think what they learned in our colleges and universities and what the news media says. They have been taught to accept everything they read and hear as truth. Some people just don't think it will happen to them because the government will protect them.
Think about it. Who controls the books that are taught in our schools from kindergarten on up? The Dept of education. Isn't it possible they have been slowly over time brainwashing people into accepting a different way of looking at things? A different way of thinking.

I notice this different thought process between those that never attended college and those that do. Common sense in very short supply to most college educated people. I can hear growls about that. I'm talking the plain old-fashioned down to earth sense where a person could figure things out for himself and make things work.

Many people I meet that have the higher education, if it's out of their field they are lost. I had a college-educated lady tell me one day that I couldn't fix her leaking stool because I wasn't a plumber. Another time a person said I couldn't hook up their VCR to program TV shows because I was not an electronics technician or I could not fix the rattle in someone’s car because I was not a mechanic. They thought I was just a dumb old farmer. There is no such thing as a dumb farmer. It takes a large degree of sense and the ability to figure things out for yourself, to make it as a farmer.

There isn't much doubt in my mind as to what's happening in this country. Either people are afraid to look ahead and see where the country is headed or they have a vague idea but don't have sense enough to figure out how to fix it. Nobody wants to get involved. Same old "The Government will protect us.” I'd better quit. I could go on and on with this topic and my many experiences with it. I probably stirred up a hornet’s nest already.

UCAnation.org (http://www.ucanation.org/) Changing the nation for you.

[zimv20]

i'm not buying the DoE(ducation) conspiracy theory.

why is hard to unite behind a cause? 'cuz it's hard to get 292,000,000 americans to agree on anything. even anything as simple as the right to breathe clean air.

[pseudobrit]

I had a college-educated lady tell me one day that I couldn't fix her leaking stool because I wasn't a plumber.

Sounds like she needed a gastroenterologist.

Another time a person said I couldn't hook up their VCR to program TV shows because I was not an electronics technician or I could not fix the rattle in someone’s car because I was not a mechanic.

What's your point? Some people are just stupid, education or no.

They thought I was just a dumb old farmer. There is no such thing as a dumb farmer.

You haven't met enough farmers.

UCAnation.org (http://www.ucanation.org/) Changing the nation for you.

For the last time, will you STOP with your Ponzi scheme **** already!!!

[IJ Reilly]

Sounds like she needed a gastroenterologist.

Badda-BOOMP!

:p

[Rebel]

Read up on the definition of a ponzi scheme.

At least I am trying to make changes within this world of ours instead of just bitching about it in forums. Do you think your words here will really have an affect on the world at large? You are wasting your fingers for no gain whats-so-ever.

However, it is your right as an American to post your beliefs as you see fit - and it is my right to post mine. As I ignore your ideals, feel free to ignore mine.

History is made by the dedicated few. Effective organizations will always succeed against apathetic majorities as long as they remain pure in their efforts and do not abuse the trust that members bestow upon them. It will not take millions to stop them, but it will take many more Americans than are involved today. If everyone who is aware helps another to understand; if the newly informed also awaken others; and if many of them come together under an effective organization to challenge and expose abusive and corrupt government, the tide of battle will be turned in the American Citizens favor.

United Citizens of America (http://www.ucanation.org/) - Changing the nation for you.

[Desertrat]

Rebel, there is a vast difference between generating a majority opinion (Protect the Environment!, e.g.) and getting a serious majority of an entire population to believe in your cause (Get bin Laden!). Typically, it takes an external threat to really create any degree of unity.

Either UCA doesn't have much of interest to sell, or the sales technique needs help.

'Rat

[wwworry]

yea we all want to get bin laden

but the idea of rewarding the super wealthy who use all the loopholes and buy off politicians to pay less taxes with a lower tax rate is stupid. Why not just concentrate on getting rid of loopholes and money in politics? That organization seems to be typical of republican doublespeak

Say your tying to do one thing (tax reform) and actually doing another (lower taxes for the super wealthy).

If you really want lower taxes for the middle class first we have to spend less on stupid wars like Iraq, spend less on give-aways to big business like the medicare law and ethanol subsidies and the new oil and gas subsidies and making people less dependant on govt. programs like welfare and SS disability (which has seen surprizing growth) and prison growth which is a mark of our collective failure to educate our youth, pull our troops out of Europe and Japan, and put in some real accounting measure for the pentagon which is the number one most super wasteful government department.
and return the top tax bracket to 39% except raise the income limit for that to $400,000

THere, I just saved you $600 billion a year. Now we have a surplus, we can pay off some of the debt (the interest alone on our debt is 10% of the yearly budget) and we can lower middleclass taxes and put some money into schools.

[wwworry]

personnally I would put all the non-violent drug offenders (which we pay $30,000/year to incarcerate each) to work in community service cleaning things.

maybe 30 days plus community service. 2nd time 90 dayss plus community service. 3rd time stricter.

[jefhatfield]

I notice this different thought process between those that never attended college and those that do. Common sense in very short supply to most college educated people. I can hear growls about that. I'm talking the plain old-fashioned down to earth sense where a person could figure things out for himself and make things work.

Many people I meet that have the higher education, if it's out of their field they are lost.

when i was young, i used to think that college would make a person more well rounded...well, it does in some very narrow topics ;)

being self employed and a college graduate, i have found that the common sense concepts i have learned in having my own business are things that could never be learned in college

college gave me some level of confidence and helped me in other ways but one thing i didn't like was the "specialization" of thinking within different majors...it is true to a degree that one is taught that they are a specialist in their field but nowhere else...so many become educated idiots being proficient in their field but nothing else and it appears that sometimes their brain shuts off on topics outside of their field of expertise ;)

but in the end, we all cannot do all things and it is good that we have self taught experts and college educated experts...without college, or some form of formal education, our society would not have a well organized group of doctors, dentists, educators, etc

but if everyone had to go to college, i suspect we would lose our american know how because a lot of what made our country great were people who thought outside of the box, and that is something that can not be taught in a classroom

btw...great thread and great points made

[jefhatfield]

why is hard to unite behind a cause? 'cuz it's hard to get 292,000,000 americans to agree on anything. even anything as simple as the right to breathe clean air.

agreed

the day all americans agree on anything is the day we are not america, as we know it

let's suppose all americans became green party members in the next century and the party became the only political voice for our nation...who would police the green party with their use of, let's say, vehicles that pollute the environment?

would a political party police itself when there was nobody out there to oppose them? would anybody point out hypocrisies made by the green party if they polluted in any way?

what would most likely happen is that the party would become unrecognizeable from the party it started out to be when it was not the only one out there...having at least one major opponet to oppose your ideas and point out your inconsistencies and blow the whistle is a good thing because it brings in checks and balances

[numediaman]

It is hard to have a serious discussion in this country when flinging slime is the norm (see below). Bush just released ads that claim Kerry voted against pay for the military and vests for the troops. The ads claim this because Kerry voted against the $87 billion bill on Iraq. In fact, the war was already over (at least the invasion stage).

By the way, the claim that Kerry said he had the support of "foreign" leaders was completely wrong. The reporter from the Boston Globe admitted his error -- but you don't see the Republicans stopping in their attacks.

Kerry Pushed on Claim as Reporter Corrects Quote
Senator referred to 'more leaders,' not 'foreign leaders,' who want Bush out. GOP is demanding names.

WASHINGTON — The Bush administration and its supporters Monday continued to pressure Sen. John F. Kerry to identify the foreign leaders he claims want him to defeat President Bush this November, adding that if he doesn't name names, his claim must be untrue . . .

. . .The Boston Globe reporter who was covering a Florida fundraiser for Kerry on March 8 wrote in a pool report, which was distributed to the rest of the press corps, that Kerry said he had spoken with "foreign leaders" who had indicated they want him to beat Bush.

But on Monday, the reporter said that, upon review of his tape, he realized that Kerry had in fact said "more leaders" want him to beat Bush.

[jefhatfield]

It is hard to have a serious discussion in this country when flinging slime is the norm (see below). Bush just released ads that claim Kerry voted against pay for the military and vests for the troops. The ads claim this because Kerry voted against the $87 billion bill on Iraq. In fact, the war was already over (at least the invasion stage).

By the way, the claim that Kerry said he had the support of "foreign" leaders was completely wrong. The reporter from the Boston Globe admitted his error -- but you don't see the Republicans stopping in their attacks.

Kerry Pushed on Claim as Reporter Corrects Quote
Senator referred to 'more leaders,' not 'foreign leaders,' who want Bush out. GOP is demanding names.

WASHINGTON — The Bush administration and its supporters Monday continued to pressure Sen. John F. Kerry to identify the foreign leaders he claims want him to defeat President Bush this November, adding that if he doesn't name names, his claim must be untrue . . .

. . .The Boston Globe reporter who was covering a Florida fundraiser for Kerry on March 8 wrote in a pool report, which was distributed to the rest of the press corps, that Kerry said he had spoken with "foreign leaders" who had indicated they want him to beat Bush.

But on Monday, the reporter said that, upon review of his tape, he realized that Kerry had in fact said "more leaders" want him to beat Bush.

it's amazing how that cartoon paints kerry as a friend of the dictators when it is the gop who backed saddam and noriega

[Desertrat]

Just reading this thread--as well as many others--should provide a clue as to why it's difficult to create unity.

:D, 'Rat

[zimv20]

Just reading this thread [...] should provide a clue as to why it's difficult to create unity.

no it shouldn't!

;-)

[jennyjennydz]

My first guess is there's something in the water.

My second guess is that it's a direct consequence of 25 years of wedge politics by both parties. She is a white, Republican, conservative, pro-life, pro-gun, anti-tax, pro-death penalty, affluent, educated SUV owner. He is a black, Democrat, liberal, pro-choice, anti-gun, socially conscious, anti-death penalty, middle class, educated Ford owner. Oh but they're both American. Yeah they'll get along.

WAR IS PEACE
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

[wwworry]

the GOP wants Kerry to name names but they still won't reveal

who outed the CIA agent Palme
who broke into the DNC computers
who was at the energy policy meetings
what was said in Cheney's private meeting with Justice Scalia
what was in the intelligence breifings the president had before 9/11
why they lied about Iraq

[Rebel]

Rebel, there is a vast difference between generating a majority opinion (Protect the Environment!, e.g.) and getting a serious majority of an entire population to believe in your cause (Get bin Laden!). Typically, it takes an external threat to really create any degree of unity.

Either UCA doesn't have much of interest to sell, or the sales technique needs help.

'Rat

The UCA (http://www.UCAnation.org/) has a partnership with another organization called the United States Patriots. In discussion with this organization, the general feeling is; Americans just are not angry enough to get involved. Which is shocking because we all see the massive abuse going on at every level of our governments institutions. The UCA will stay the course and someday Americans will wake-up and get involved.




UCAnation (http://www.ucanation.org/) - Changing the nation for you.

[jefhatfield]

The UCA (http://www.UCAnation.org/) has a partnership with another organization called the United States Patriots. In discussion with this organization, the general feeling is; Americans just are not angry enough to get involved. Which is shocking because we all see the massive abuse going on at every level of our governments institutions. The UCA will stay the course and someday Americans will wake-up and get involved.




UCAnation (http://www.ucanation.org/) - Changing the nation for you.

i hope it is a sound organization

some so called patriots in america are traitors and want anything from a violent communist overthrow of the usa to a statist neo nazi america, both of which are nowhere in the same neighborhood as the america the founding fathers found

at least today's democrats and republicans, no matter how tasteless and crass they can be, are still in the same neighborhood as the founding fathers

sure, they have strayed but they are not the extremists on the left and right that pop out of the woodwork from time to time who look to hitler, mao, stalin, or castro as a role model

[jennyjennydz]

i hope it is a sound organization

some so called patriots in america are traitors and want anything from a violent communist overthrow of the usa to a statist neo nazi america, both of which are nowhere in the same neighborhood as the america the founding fathers found

at least today's democrats and republicans, no matter how tasteless and crass they can be, are still in the same neighborhood as the founding fathers

sure, they have strayed but they are not the extremists on the left and right that pop out of the woodwork from time to time who look to hitler, mao, stalin, or castro as a role model

Part of the brilliance of the founding fathers is their clear and unambiguous acceptance of their own fallability. They understood the had not achieved a utopia in the U.S. or its Constitution, but they felt it offered a framework for positive growth.

Please do not make the intellectually dishonest mistake of lumping all those outside the mainstream parties into the categories of "extremist" and "traitor" and "violent."

If we're mentioning paragons of evil, it would be wise to add a western name or two to the list. Just ask the families of millions of dead Vietnamese/Laotians/Cambodians/Hmong, the hundreds of thousands of dead latinos, or the victims of the Irish potato famine and I'm sure they'd come up with one or two or three to go with the madmen you listed.

--

WAR IS PEACE
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

[Rebel]

i hope it is a sound organization

some so called patriots in america are traitors and want anything from a violent communist overthrow of the usa to a statist neo nazi america, both of which are nowhere in the same neighborhood as the america the founding fathers found

at least today's democrats and republicans, no matter how tasteless and crass they can be, are still in the same neighborhood as the founding fathers

sure, they have strayed but they are not the extremists on the left and right that pop out of the woodwork from time to time who look to hitler, mao, stalin, or castro as a role model


I don't know if I would go so far as say, "they are in the same neighborhood". However, they are still Americans - which is a very good thing. But, they are far too removed from the lives of the ordinary man to be considered neighborly.

You have to remember that the primary reason our nations founders went to war was due to increasing monarchy taxation. Our founders felt that the tax burden was stifling colonial-mans ability to make a better life for themselves and their families. Their thinking was - why bust their backs to make the monarchy wealthier. The original taxation guidelines that our founders initiated states:

"No captivation or other direct tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken". (Meaning that they cannot tax citizens without a citizen census being taken first.)

This law held for 201 years until our modern politicians felt they knew better than our founders did. Coincidently, it is roughly around this timeframe that government spending sharply increased along with our nation’s debt. In 1977, our modern day politicians instituted the following amendment.

1977 Amendment XVI "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration". (Meaning that they could care less what the citizens think if they want to tax us, they can and there is not a darn thing we can do about it.)

Unbelievably, we are at the same crossroad today that our founders faced in our nations beginning. On average, 43% of our income earnings go into government coffers today. The average person is barely staying even - let alone even thinking of moving to a better position in life. Our founders knew that excessive taxation was stifling a person’s ability to achieve their dreams, and this fact was very bad for the dream they had for our nation. It is up to us citizens, united under one voice, to bring this faded dream back into focus.

UCAnation.org (http://www.ucanation.org/) If we hope to succeed, everything we do must be based on morality and for the betterment of all American citizens - forever more.

[jefhatfield]

I don't know if I would go so far as say, "they are in the same neighborhood". However, they are still Americans - which is a very good thing. But, they are far too removed from the lives of the ordinary man to be considered neighborly.

You have to remember that the primary reason our nations founders went to war was due to increasing monarchy taxation. Our founders felt that the tax burden was stifling colonial-mans ability to make a better life for themselves and their families. Their thinking was - why bust their backs to make the monarchy wealthier. The original taxation guidelines that our founders initiated states:

"No captivation or other direct tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken". (Meaning that they cannot tax citizens without a citizen census being taken first.)

This law held for 201 years until our modern politicians felt they knew better than our founders did. Coincidently, it is roughly around this timeframe that government spending sharply increased along with our nation’s debt. In 1977, our modern day politicians instituted the following amendment.

1977 Amendment XVI "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration". (Meaning that they could care less what the citizens think if they want to tax us, they can and there is not a darn thing we can do about it.)

Unbelievably, we are at the same crossroad today that our founders faced in our nations beginning. On average, 43% of our income earnings go into government coffers today. The average person is barely staying even - let alone even thinking of moving to a better position in life. Our founders knew that excessive taxation was stifling a person’s ability to achieve their dreams, and this fact was very bad for the dream they had for our nation. It is up to us citizens, united under one voice, to bring this faded dream back into focus.

UCAnation.org (http://www.ucanation.org/) If we hope to succeed, everything we do must be based on morality and for the betterment of all American citizens - forever more.

it's shocking how much our govt taxes people and sometimes i think our president, favoring the very rich, wants to make a caste system and a monarchy style govt where the working man cannot catch up with the rich...he is against a fair wage and he lets medical insurance go haywire while his pharmaceutical friends laugh all the way to the bank

i hope america does not come to a point where we have two classes, rich and poor, like colonial era england, which we escaped from in the first place

i did a google search on united states patriots and all i got were either terrorist organizations or illegal crime groups...i hope you don't deal with those people to try and change the problems of america

i do admit that sometimes the us government could be no better than an extremist group or illegal crime gang...one example is the fbi under j edgar hoover...now i admit he was as bad as they get

i saw an interesting set of shows on the history channel and they got into the dirt of his organization's activities and his exploits rivaled those of the mob and the kkk

while trying to take down the mob, he just moved in and basically took over as the next mobster

while fighting the kkk, he infiltrated the organizations but his men were seen beating and intimidating black civil rights people

while fighting civil rights, yes he also fought them too as he did against the kkk, his fbi agents tried to stop martin luther king and threatened his life with written death threats

so with the exploits of a gangland style leader of the fbi, like hoover, and some the the death squad exploits of the cia and their friends abroad, it is no wonder that those govt groups outrage regular american citizens like you and me

where i draw the line is fighting fire with fire...i think the right and left wing extremist groups armed to the teeth with weapons or an illegal crime gang are not the way to counteract the more violent groups of our government...then they would end up being the same darn thing as the abomination *ie-hoover's fbi, and it would make no sense

i have seen some left wing extremist groups up close since i live near berkeley, ca and some of those people, while small in number, are true believers and very dangerous...some are actually mentally ill, some are ex-patriots from the jungles of vietnam via special forces, and with the combination of hyper liberalism and anger that can overtake some groups around the college campus, it is not hard to find some outright communist groups armed and ready to strike...many have thought that some of these groups just disbanded at the end of the sixties, but i tell you now, they are alive and wedged underground just under the surface

equally dangerous are the right wing groups angry at the govt and while not likely to be hanging around in berkeley, they are prolly found in the more conservative cities in the us

if ever both these sides, who have the us govt in common as an enemy, ever got together in an organized fashion, i think there would be a small, but violent war

i have no doubt that the us govt would prevail, but many innocent civilians would die and nothing would be achieved in the end...the govt would crack down and in doing so, they would implicate totally innocent civilians and in that case the us govt and the extremist groups of the left and right would all be equally at fault

what is great about america is if we don't like it, we can vote...carter pissed us off so we put in reagan...bush sr pissed us off so we put in clinton so if one day neither a dem or a republican can capture our imagination, then i am sure we will bring in a third candidate

i think perot, ventura, and nader were serious wake up calls and the great thing about democracy is that there is no limit to how many parties can be formed

i hope W does not abuse his homeland security act, otherwise he will be sent home packing and will have to return to being daddy's never do well offspring ;)

[jefhatfield]

Part of the brilliance of the founding fathers is their clear and unambiguous acceptance of their own fallability. They understood the had not achieved a utopia in the U.S. or its Constitution, but they felt it offered a framework for positive growth.

Please do not make the intellectually dishonest mistake of lumping all those outside the mainstream parties into the categories of "extremist" and "traitor" and "violent."

If we're mentioning paragons of evil, it would be wise to add a western name or two to the list. Just ask the families of millions of dead Vietnamese/Laotians/Cambodians/Hmong, the hundreds of thousands of dead latinos, or the victims of the Irish potato famine and I'm sure they'd come up with one or two or three to go with the madmen you listed.

--

WAR IS PEACE
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

i totally agree that the founding fathers knew that they were fallible and this leads to a great and "changing for the better" nation

i definitely will not lump all groups outside of the mainstream as violent and i know many of them, like moveon.org, are angry and wanting legitimate change peacefully

there are many groups on the left and right, and center for that matter, that are not mainstream and great for america's continued evolution and growth

at the same time, we cannot let illegal and violent groups of the left and right gain the upper hand and distinguish democracy and freedom in america

it's a very delicate political eco-system and it does not always weed out dictators from the mainstream...like i mentioned in previous post, i think j edgar hoover, former head of the fbi through seven us presidents, was the worst enemy to freedom...perhaps in us history

i think our legislators have to see to it that no one person, like hoover, can ever gain that type of power in the us government and treat it like his own tin horn dictator playground

[Rebel]

i did a google search on united states patriots and all i got were either terrorist organizations or illegal crime groups...i hope you don't deal with those people to try and change the problems of america

i hope W does not abuse his homeland security act, otherwise he will be sent home packing and will have to return to being daddy's never do well offspring ;)

You can find the link to the USP at the United Citizens of America partner links page http://www.ucanation.org/partner%20links.htm

They have a slightly different view than the UCA on how to change things. The UCA's (http://www.ucanation.org/) view is very peaceful but aggressive at the same time. We feel that an income only taxation system, at every level of government, is the only way to get our elected leaders working for the people again.

As far as our homeland security act. My personal belief is - it will not be abused too badly in the near future. But if it is not repealed in the long run, the future citizens of our nation will be seriously abused by government institutions.

[jefhatfield]

You can find the link to the USP at the United Citizens of America partner links page http://www.ucanation.org/partner%20links.htm

They have a slightly different view than the UCA on how to change things. The UCA's (http://www.ucanation.org/) view is very peaceful but aggressive at the same time. We feel that an income only taxation system, at every level of government, is the only way to get our elected leaders working for the people again.

As far as our homeland security act. My personal belief is - it will not be abused too badly in the near future. But if it is not repealed in the long run, the future citizens of our nation will be seriously abused by government institutions.

i hope the homeland security act gets those terrorist bastards of al qaeda

i will never forgive or forget what bin laden has done to us and if he is alive, we should do everying in our power to get him...wasting time on saddam in iraq with our money and troops was a horrific waste, especially since there is no wide consensus that he had ties to bin laden or wmd's...all we really know for sure is saddam killed many kurds, the same kurds who are loyal and friendly to bin laden so i doubt there is a serious bin laden-saddam link there ;)

though i am a democrat, i do not share in many of my fellow democrat's big fear of W's homeland security act as a way to gain an upper hand...now with nixon, i would not be so sure ;)

but you are right, if the homeland security act stays up too long, somebody will abuse it horribly and then the terrorists would have won...they wanted to scare the usa into dropping its freedoms and no longer being the usa as we know it...we can't let al qaeda change our way of life and there is no way this groups, rumored to be just in the tens of thousands worldwide, is going to bring us 300 million americans and billions of free citizens in the world to our knees

that being said, since most of their terrorist cells are small and even one person operations, it is hard to catch them and it will take a homeland security being operational for a long time to catch all the al qaeda cells until they are rendered ineffective

how long will dismatling al qaeda take? maybe decades and if in the end it takes giving palestine their own homeland like bin laden fights for, among other things, then so be it

but that in itself, is a separate issue and while most terrorist activities among arabs can ultimately be traced to hating israel, we may need to give palestine their own land just for the human rights angle

even colin powell, in W's staff, has mentioned that palestine should have a homeland...but i don't think w totally agrees with that...but time will tell

man, i got off topic but when anger, terrorism, and al qaeda pop up, so does the plo, arafat and a palestinian homeland

gee, no wonder why people think the third world war will be in the middle east over this issue or one closely related to it

[Rebel]

UCA (http://www.UCAnation.org/) the general feeling is; Americans just are not angry enough to get involved. Which is shocking because we all see the massive abuse going on at every level of our governments institutions. The UCA will stay the course and someday Americans will wake-up and get involved.


UCAnation (http://www.ucanation.org/) - Changing the nation for you.

Just to comment on the above point.

I recently attended a wedding and was intrigued to hear numerous discussions regarding taxes. I mainly listened, and interjected comments here and there to keep the discussion flowing. (which became very colorful as the night and drinks flowed along) When I suggested ways in which they could get involved to help change happen, it seemed like I was talking in a different language.

This just helps prove the point that every American is feeling the weight of budonsome taxation, and is disgusted with our abusive government spending habits, yet when a chance comes to get involved, they run like dear.

With the Hugh debt facing our nation and every community in-between, our governments are going to have to raise taxes to extreme levels in the not too distant future - even higher than the current average of 43% per citizen. Maybe then, Americans will become angry enough to get involved. On the other hand, maybe people just like to be economic slaves to our abusive government.


United Citizens of America (http://www.ucanation.org/)

[jefhatfield]

Just to comment on the above point.

I recently attended a wedding and was intrigued to hear numerous discussions regarding taxes. I mainly listened, and interjected comments here and there to keep the discussion flowing. (which became very colorful as the night and drinks flowed along) When I suggested ways in which they could get involved to help change happen, it seemed like I was talking in a different language.

This just helps prove the point that every American is feeling the weight of budonsome taxation, and is disgusted with our abusive government spending habits, yet when a chance comes to get involved, they run like dear.

With the Hugh debt facing our nation and every community in-between, our governments are going to have to raise taxes to extreme levels in the not too distant future - even higher than the current average of 43% per citizen. Maybe then, Americans will become angry enough to get involved. On the other hand, maybe people just like to be economic slaves to our abusive government.


United Citizens of America (http://www.ucanation.org/)

jesse ventura was a wake up call as was perot a few years earlier

what if kerry picks an independent as vp running mate? or down the line, if a major gop or dem does?

taxes could only get so high until the populace will vote them out

[Rebel]

jesse ventura was a wake up call as was perot a few years earlier

what if kerry picks an independent as vp running mate? or down the line, if a major gop or dem does?

taxes could only get so high until the populace will vote them out

Yet, even if they are voted out, they will still earn lifetime incomes and benefits. So what do they care? And the new folks coming in may make minor cuts, but we will never see a true reduction. Unless we force a change, the tax will continue to spiral upward, and economic slavery will reign supreme. I choose not to be a slave.

[jefhatfield]

Yet, even if they are voted out, they will still earn lifetime incomes and benefits. So what do they care? And the new folks coming in may make minor cuts, but we will never see a true reduction. Unless we force a change, the tax will continue to spiral upward, and economic slavery will reign supreme. I choose not to be a slave.

ventura and perot both went against the two party machine and showed the world it could be done...that is bigger than you could imagine...don't take that lightly

as far as taxes, sure they suck but we are making much more money these days even after taxes...100 years ago we had no telephones, tv, computers, cars, etc and the average family used only five gallons of water a day...people were thinner but not out of choice

let's say the overall tax is 75 percent 200 years from now...but by then, we will still have two cars (or whatever the mode of transportation might be) in the driveway and everyone will be a millionaire...maybe 100 times over each on average

it's all relative and context is important...so is quality of life

we will never be "slaves" of an abusive tax system and i doubt any of the people of the system we ditched, england, will ever fall under an abusive tax system...the modern democracies of the world and free countries are set up to basically follow how we do things in america...the usa is a model, which we borrowed heavily from the greeks and romans, that others follow

and abusive, totalitarian tax systems are not likely to srping up in any democratic environment

when taxes get too high, in relative terms that it affects standard of living (that is key), then the pols will be voted out....it's as simple as that, and i have faith in the system that our forefathers set up and future american generations continued to uphold and modify when needed

of course there will be some who think we have strayed from the original america our forefathers envisioned...but ask yourself then, what country would you rather live in instead of the usa...with a couple of hundred countries out there, i bet you can't think of five or ten...so in the context of the world, the usa is still a pretty decent place to live...many say number one

[Rebel]

ventura and perot both went against the two party machine and showed the world it could be done...that is bigger than you could imagine...don't take that lightly

as far as taxes, sure they suck but we are making much more money these days even after taxes...100 years ago we had no telephones, tv, computers, cars, etc and the average family used only five gallons of water a day...people were thinner but not out of choice

let's say the overall tax is 75 percent 200 years from now...but by then, we will still have two cars (or whatever the mode of transportation might be) in the driveway and everyone will be a millionaire...maybe 100 times over each on average

it's all relative and context is important...so is quality of life

we will never be "slaves" of an abusive tax system and i doubt any of the people of the system we ditched, england, will ever fall under an abusive tax system...the modern democracies of the world and free countries are set up to basically follow how we do things in america...the usa is a model, which we borrowed heavily from the greeks and romans, that others follow

and abusive, totalitarian tax systems are not likely to srping up in any democratic environment

when taxes get too high, in relative terms that it affects standard of living (that is key), then the pols will be voted out....it's as simple as that, and i have faith in the system that our forefathers set up and future american generations continued to uphold and modify when needed

of course there will be some who think we have strayed from the original america our forefathers envisioned...but ask yourself then, what country would you rather live in instead of the usa...with a couple of hundred countries out there, i bet you can't think of five or ten...so in the context of the world, the usa is still a pretty decent place to live...many say number one


You are absolutely correct, our country is the greatest. But that doesn't mean we cannot lobby or fight for change. I don't mind paying taxes as long as the money paid is treated with respect and spent wisely on our nations future. Our children and grand children are in for some very hard times ahead. It may even be the downfall of our nation. If you remember, Rome (whom you say our nations was shaped after), fell. Not from her enemies, but from greed within. This sounds pretty similar to what is happening today.

Following is an article I wrote that was just published in our local papers.


Over-burdensome taxation killing the American dream

Some say that our politicians are in the same neighborhood in their thoughts as our founding fathers. I don't know if I would go so far as say, "they are in the same neighborhood". However, they are still Americans - which is a very good thing. But, they are far too removed from the lives of the ordinary person to be considered neighborly.

You should remember that the primary reason our nation’s founders went to war was due to increasing monarchy taxation. Our founders felt that the tax burden was stifling colonial-mans ability to make a better life for themselves and their families. Their thinking was - why should they bust their backs to make the monarchy wealthier while they struggle through life? The original taxation guidelines that our founders initiated for our nation states:

"No captivation or other direct tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken". (Meaning that they cannot tax citizens without a citizen census being taken first.)

This law held for 201 years until our modern politicians felt they knew better than our founders did. Coincidently, it is roughly around this timeframe that government spending sharply increased along with our nation’s debt. In 1977, our modern day politicians instituted the following amendment.

1977 Amendment XVI "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration". (Meaning that they could care less what the citizens think if they want to tax us, they can and there is not a darn thing we can do about it.)

Unbelievably, we are at the same crossroad today that our founders faced in our nations beginning. On average, 43% of our income earnings go into government coffers today. The average person is barely staying even - let alone even thinking of moving to a better position in life. Our founders knew that excessive taxation was stifling a person’s ability to achieve their dreams, and this fact was very bad for the dream they had for our nation. It is up to us citizens, united under one voice, to bring this faded dream back into focus.

[jefhatfield]

You are absolutely correct, our country is the greatest. But that doesn't mean we cannot lobby or fight for change. I don't mind paying taxes as long as the money paid is treated with respect and spent wisely on our nations future.

i also don't mind taxes if they are spent wisely

unfortunately neither party is perfect in the usa...but i tend towards the democrats because their money they get from taxes go to help more people while the gop's idea of using their money is giving it back, 99 percent of it, back to millionaires and billionaires

i can't see how that gop plan can help except in helping the rich become richer and end us up with a caste system and artificial monarchy...in that case, we will be back to the colonial days...reagan said he didn't like carter's so called defecit and when he came in, he doubled it...gwb talks about tax relief but then does nothing for the economy and spends 87 billion on iraq while programs for americans fall by the wayside

i choose the dems because they won't bankrupt us like today's modern gop

[Neserk]

i also don't mind taxes if they are spent wisely



Me either. But then again what *they* think is spending money wisely and what *I* think is spending money wisely are two different things.

I've worked in a church and a synagogue and the waste is astounding.

Schools are the same way. Personally, I think the money needs to stay as close to the students as possible. They are the reason we are there after all.

[Rebel]

i also don't mind taxes if they are spent wisely

unfortunately neither party is perfect in the usa...but i tend towards the democrats because their money they get from taxes go to help more people while the gop's idea of using their money is giving it back, 99 percent of it, back to millionaires and billionaires

i can't see how that gop plan can help except in helping the rich become richer and end us up with a caste system and artificial monarchy...in that case, we will be back to the colonial days...reagan said he didn't like carter's so called defecit and when he came in, he doubled it...gwb talks about tax relief but then does nothing for the economy and spends 87 billion on iraq while programs for americans fall by the wayside

i choose the dems because they won't bankrupt us like today's modern gop

The democrats are just as bad as the repuplicans. They just use different twists to get at the same result. Personally, I would rather keep more of my own money than rely on the democrats to take it and save me.

Did you know what our greatest President thought about party spirit?

It discusted him so much, that he decided to leave the Presidency. Here is his departing qoute to the nation:

"Forswear excessive party spirit and geographical distinctions." - George Washington

What we need is a United Citizenship (http://www.ucanation.org/) to hold our "out-of-control" politicians in check.

[Rebel]

Me either. But then again what *they* think is spending money wisely and what *I* think is spending money wisely are two different things.

I've worked in a church and a synagogue and the waste is astounding.

Schools are the same way. Personally, I think the money needs to stay as close to the students as possible. They are the reason we are there after all.

I wont debate on religion - People die over that ****. But our schools systems are another matter. My town just voted down a tax referendum, which made me very proud and now the evil man in the neighborhood....

I don't care what they think, it was the right thing to do. The system did not need more money. But rumor is; they are going to implement the tax anyway because - and I qoute - "it is for the betterment of our children's future:

America spends more tax money per student than any other industrialized nation. Yet our children consistently place lower in all the major education measurements that are taken. Why? Because teaching is no longer a passion for many. It has turned into a career path, a way to make a good buck, have summers off, and get fantastic retirement packages. All paid for by the taxpayers of America .

Teaching has always been underpaid because it was possible to encourage other motivations--love of a particular subject, enthusiasm to communicate it to the next generation, summers off, great retirement packages, and the enjoyment of being with young people as they learn. Satisfaction, as in any other job, comes when those values are central to the profession as a whole. Self-esteem comes when pupils and society at large endorse those values. The only remedy is for this lot [the education gurus with the New Labor government] to go back to basics--and I don't mean the three Rs at age-appropriate levels. They need to open up a general debate about what we want our children to know; about how to inspire affection, loyalty, morality, care for the environment, while encouraging independent thought and self-reliance. It's only when the ideas are worth teaching that we'll get teachers worth having.”

In most school districts, 80 percent of funds go to teachers, board members, and administration staff by way of salary and benefits. Once you calculate salaries for building maintenance, any other non-discretionary funds, very little remains for the children.

Education is what made our country the greatest on the planet. The future does not look so great ever since governments and unions started dipping their hands in the pot. Maybe we do not need more teachers, and to pay teachers more money. Maybe we should pay the right teachers the right amount of money, and quit getting caught up on teacher-student ratios. Did you know that a Lancaster University 's Management School analyzed data from 2,657 schools in Britain over a five-year period (1993-1998). Researchers applied a process called "data development analysis," which is used by economists to measure the technical efficiency of industry. The study's authors made the following observations on class size:

There has been a lot of debate about the effect of class size on pupil performance. Many academic reports have noted that the pupil-teacher ratio has little or no effect on academic achievement. For instance, China averages 70 students per teacher, and their 8th grade student’s rank 3rd in math and 1st in science. Another example, Korea ranked 2nd in math and 5th in science and has a 32 to 1 student teacher ratio. Italy has an 11 to 1 student teacher ratio and ranks 23rd in math and 21st in science. In America , we average a 16 to1 student teacher ratio and our 8th grade kids ranked 19th in math and 18th in science.

If you look at all the numbers, there is no clear advantage in justifying more schools or teachers based upon ratios. It all leads back to ensuring the right teachers are in front of children. Having the wrong teacher in front of kids, can ruin a generation of future adults.

Look around your community; you will see massive abuses happening right in your own back yard - especially in our school systems. We need to force our communities to act fiscally responsible with our money. For Instance, Driver’s ED Teachers are some of the highest paid within our school systems. The average take-home pay equals $64,000. Driver Ed teachers also have the highest percentages of six-figure wage earners. More than 11% of High school driving instructors made at least $100,000. They are also the sport coaches. I think our priorities are screwed-up here.

The only way to truly discipline such profligate spenders is to deny them access to funds. Tax cuts, by returning the money to the people who earned it in the first place, are an effective way of doing just that.

UCAnation.org - Spread the word. (http://www.ucanation.org/)

[Macco]

In most school districts, 80 percent of funds go to teachers, board members, and administration staff by way of salary and benefits. Once you calculate salaries for building maintenance, any other non-discretionary funds, very little remains for the children.


First, you have posted almost exactly the same thing in another forum.

Second, what do students need the money for? I mean, after teachers, administration, building maintenance, etc. what else is there? Pencils and paper?

[Rebel]

First, you have posted almost exactly the same thing in another forum.

Second, what do students need the money for? I mean, after teachers, administration, building maintenance, etc. what else is there? Pencils and paper?

Books, interactive experiences, computers, supplies (parents have to provide pencils and paper etc.), cultural experiences, etc.

Our schools do a good job of teaching our children how to learn, but they do a terrible job of teaching them how to think. This is why other nations children are leaving ours in the dust.

[Opteron]

i'm not buying the DoE(ducation) conspiracy theory.

why is hard to unite behind a cause? 'cuz it's hard to get 292,000,000 americans to agree on anything. even anything as simple as the right to breathe clean air.

I might be wrong but I say that between 1945 and 1990 america was fairly unted against communism. And the Russians against the USA.

[jefhatfield]

Books, interactive experiences, computers, supplies (parents have to provide pencils and paper etc.), cultural experiences, etc.

Our schools do a good job of teaching our children how to learn, but they do a terrible job of teaching them how to think. This is why other nations children are leaving ours in the dust.

i have run into international students over the years in college and i wondered why they were usually so much better equipped in knowledge

either they are the cream of the crop of their countries, or they have better educational systems, or they have had fewer distractions...or a combination of the above...and i wonder if our american system has let us down

[Rebel]

i have run into international students over the years in college and i wondered why they were usually so much better equipped in knowledge

either they are the cream of the crop of their countries, or they have better educational systems, or they have had fewer distractions...or a combination of the above...and i wonder if our american system has let us down

Unfortunately, I believe that greed within our political and teaching ranks have let us down. Teachers are what made our nation great. Other countries emulated our schools in order to get their children to be competitive with ours. Today it is just the opposite.

Today it is about the money - not the children.

I recently attended a referendum party in my neighborhood (I was the bad guy). They were discussing the costs associated with sending teachers to school in order to keep their skills up to date. The cost (besides the class cost) included the hiring of a substitute to fill in while the teacher was learning. Each teacher is given two weeks of educational refreshers. As you can imagine, the cost is significant. When I made the point that, a teacher’s salary is and annual figure, scrunched into the 9-month teaching year, and suggested that the teachers utilize the summer off time to receive their mandated training refreshers (thus saving thousands of dollars in substitute costs), I thought I was not going to make it out of the party alive.

This, along with other points I made, would have a tremendous affect on the money collected for our children. They could use the savings to give our children more interactive activities to stimulate creative thinking, build teamwork and collaboration skills, enhance cultural awareness, etc.

They looked at me as if I was from another planet.

[jefhatfield]

i have heard a lot from the teacher's point of view saying that the administrators get paid too much for what they do

i know teachers have received better pay of late but i don't really know if they make "too much"

spending 87 billion on iraq is too much!! taking out a dictator because of wmd's which don't exist is too much!! worrying about saddam and his sons while bin laden is alive and on the loose is too much!!

[zimv20]

spending 87 billion on iraq is too much!!
time to update your figures. it's more like $109 billion (http://www.costofwar.com/)

[Rebel]

i have heard a lot from the teacher's point of view saying that the administrators get paid too much for what they do

i know teachers have received better pay of late but i don't really know if they make "too much"

spending 87 billion on iraq is too much!! taking out a dictator because of wmd's which don't exist is too much!! worrying about saddam and his sons while bin laden is alive and on the loose is too much!!


What could $87 billion buy? It would solve all the budget crises for every school district in the entire country. It would buy health insurance for 15 years for every American child. It would feed 6 million children who died from hunger in the world for the next seven years.

UCA (http://www.ucanation.org/)

[jefhatfield]

What could $87 billion buy? It would solve all the budget crises for every school district in the entire country. It would buy health insurance for 15 years for every American child. It would feed 6 million children who died from hunger in the world for the next seven years.

UCA (http://www.ucanation.org/)

if today's gop was actually "conservative" and conserved monies, i would be a republican

but since reagan, or at least his second term, the gop has been huge on spending, and not always for the best things to help americans in america...the dems have been better than the gop in spending and also every other party out there has been better than the gop

i will definitely not vote for W in 2004...the dems, green party, reform party, and libertarians will benefit from W's mad spending because they can criticize the president on the war and thus get votes on an increasingly unpopular war/occupation

if W had just gone after bin laden, our real enemy, and avoided a costly war with iraq, i might have seen myself voting for him come november

[Rebel]

if today's gop was actually "conservative" and conserved monies, i would be a republican

but since reagan, or at least his second term, the gop has been huge on spending, and not always for the best things to help americans in america...the dems have been better than the gop in spending and also every other party out there has been better than the gop

i will definitely not vote for W in 2004...the dems, green party, reform party, and libertarians will benefit from W's mad spending on an increasingly unpopular war/occupation

if W had just gone after bin laden, our real enemy, and avoided a costly war with iraq, i might have seen myself voting for him come november

In the beginning, after 9/11, W stated loudly to the world, “you’re either with us or against us.” Our nation screamed, “We are with you!”, and so did I. As for our “friends,” this is what they said –

“How much is it worth to you?”

Following is what it is costing us to have friends support our back:

Afghanistan $550 million, Albania $34 million, Azerbaijan $50 million, Bulgaria $41 million, Colombia $576 million, Czech $12 million, El Salvador $41 million, Eritrea $8 million, Estonia $9 million, Ethiopia $58 million, Georgia $89 million, Honduras $41 million, Hungary $12 million, Latvia $9 million, Lithuania $10 million, Macedonia $51 million, Nicaragua $35 million, Philippines $89 million, Poland $14 million, Portugal $1 million, Romania $43 million, Slovakia $9 million, Turkey $255 million, Uzbekistan $57 million.

Some friends they are.

As for the countries who supported us without asking for one red cent – United Kingdom, Italy, Singapore, Australia, Netherlands, Iceland, Japan, Korea, Denmark, Spain. America thanks you for your friendship and support. Thank you.

[jefhatfield]

In the beginning, after 9/11, W stated loudly to the world, “you’re either with us or against us.” Our nation screamed, “We are with you!”, and so did I. As for our “friends,” this is what they said –

“How much is it worth to you?”

Following is what it is costing us to have friends support our back:

Afghanistan $550 million, Albania $34 million, Azerbaijan $50 million, Bulgaria $41 million, Colombia $576 million, Czech $12 million, El Salvador $41 million, Eritrea $8 million, Estonia $9 million, Ethiopia $58 million, Georgia $89 million, Honduras $41 million, Hungary $12 million, Latvia $9 million, Lithuania $10 million, Macedonia $51 million, Nicaragua $35 million, Philippines $89 million, Poland $14 million, Portugal $1 million, Romania $43 million, Slovakia $9 million, Turkey $255 million, Uzbekistan $57 million.

Some friends they are.

As for the countries who supported us without asking for one red cent – United Kingdom, Italy, Singapore, Australia, Netherlands, Iceland, Japan, Korea, Denmark, Spain. America thanks you for your friendship and support. Thank you.

and then take all those huge amounts and multiply it many times over, and that's what our president has spent on a war we had no business being in

it still makes no sense to me why we took out saddam and his regime...what makes him more important to destroy than iran, syria, north korea, cuba, or lybia? i am still pissed we didn't go all out in afganistan and pakistan and get bin laden and his henchmen...of course, that won't stop al qaeda completely but it think it's more about justice being done

now the trail has grown cold and we may never be able to catch al qaeda to a damaging degree...mostly because we committed so much to iraq...i will never forget 9-11 and i can't see why bush went after iraq more

[Rebel]

and then take all those huge amounts and multiply it many times over, and that's what our president has spent on a war we had no business being in

it still makes no sense to me why we took out saddam and his regime...what makes him more important to destroy than iran, syria, north korea, cuba, or lybia? i am still pissed we didn't go all out in afganistan and pakistan and get bin laden and his henchmen...of course, that won't stop al qaeda completely but it think it's more about justice being done

now the trail has grown cold and we may never be able to catch al qaeda to a damaging degree...mostly because we committed so much to iraq...i will never forget 9-11 and i can't see why bush went after iraq more

Our nation lost international respect due to Iraq.

Don't forget about China. China still has a documented 1000 year plan (now on year 898) to take over our country. According to some experts, they are poised to be the driving force in an invasion should our goverment falter.

And with our troops spread so thin, we would not be able to muster a decent defense against an overwhelming force.

[jefhatfield]

Our nation lost international respect due to Iraq.

Don't forget about China. China still has a documented 1000 year plan (now on year 898) to take over our country. According to some experts, they are poised to be the driving force in an invasion should our goverment falter.

And with our troops spread so thin, we would not be able to muster a decent defense against an overwhelming force.

i don't think china could do it today

but if they are on year 898, that gives them more than a century to pull it off...so who knows by then?

[Macco]

Our nation lost international respect due to Iraq.

Don't forget about China. China still has a documented 1000 year plan (now on year 898) to take over our country. According to some experts, they are poised to be the driving force in an invasion should our goverment falter.

And with our troops spread so thin, we would not be able to muster a decent defense against an overwhelming force.

How is it possible to be on year 898 of a plan to take over the United States when this land was not known to most of Europe and Asia before 550 years ago?

[Sayhey]

Don't forget about China. China still has a documented 1000 year plan (now on year 898) to take over our country. According to some experts, they are poised to be the driving force in an invasion should our goverment falter.

Rebel, you are full of... unique ideas. First, Aldrin, Armstrong and the rest of the Apollo astronauts didn't land on the moon and now this - do they spoon-feed you this silliness in your "organization" or do you make it up yourself?

[windowsblowsass]

the GOP wants Kerry to name names but they still won't reveal

who outed the CIA agent Palme
who broke into the DNC computers
who was at the energy policy meetings
what was said in Cheney's private meeting with Justice Scalia
what was in the intelligence breifings the president had before 9/11
why they lied about Iraq
stop the lied about iraq dog****** already every major goverment thought iraq had weapons including france there were thousands unaccounted for and itelligence said they had them david k who i think knows a little more than you about the subject said it was faulty intelligence yes they may have lied according to the definition but it was also unintentional

[zimv20]

yes they may have lied according to the definition but it was also unintentional
how can you be so sure?

[Neserk]

every major goverment thought iraq had weapons including france


Assuming this is true, it is because the UK and US lied to them about the intelligence they had (which they didn't have).

[Sayhey]

stop the lied about iraq dog****** already every major goverment thought iraq had weapons including france there were thousands unaccounted for and itelligence said they had them david k who i think knows a little more than you about the subject said it was faulty intelligence yes they may have lied according to the definition but it was also unintentional

It appears to be a choice between outright lies in order to manipulate the US public or ideologues who were so blinded by their own certainty of how the world was that they couldn't see the truth as it repeatedly shouted out the reality of no WMDs and no connections to al Qaeda. Which is worse? I don't much care if they believed their own lies. When thousands are sacrificed does it matter to you?

[Dippo]

It appears to be a choice between outright lies in order to manipulate the US public or ideologues who were so blinded by their own certainty of how the world was that they couldn't see the truth as it repeatedly shouted out the reality of no WMDs and no connections to al Qaeda. Which is worse? I don't much care if they believed their own lies. When thousands are sacrificed does it matter to you?


I think everyone is too hung up on the WMDs.

Saddam had to be removed with or without WMD, and now he's gone.

If we didn't take him out now, it would have only been a matter of time before he forced us into action.

[Sayhey]

I think everyone is too hung up on the WMDs.

Saddam had to be removed with or without WMD, and now he's gone.

If we didn't take him out now, it would have only been a matter of time before he forced us into action.

People are "hung up" on WMDs because the supposed threat of their use on the US was the reason Congress gave Bush the authorization they did and why the US public gave what support they did. It doesn't bother you that we launched a war, in which thousands have died, on the false assumption of a WMD threat?

Saddam was a horrible, brutal dictator who should have been overthrown by the Iraqi people long ago. If it had not been for the active support of Saddam by the Reagan and Bush administrations, maybe that could have been accomplished.

The idea that we have the right to use our military power to eliminate leaders we see, rightly or wrongly, as the "bad guys" is extremely disturbing in the light of our own nation's birth in a struggle against foreign domination, not to mention international law that denies nations the right to such interference.

[mactastic]

I think everyone is too hung up on the WMDs.

Saddam had to be removed with or without WMD, and now he's gone.

If we didn't take him out now, it would have only been a matter of time before he forced us into action.

Yeah, the ends justify the means, don't they?