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MacBytes
Feb 4, 2009, 01:07 PM
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Category: Apple Hardware
Link: Netbooks kill Macbook demand (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20090204140754)
Description:: Apple's Macbook line of notebook computers faired well through the 2008 holiday season, however new research indicates that sales are ebbing in the wake of stronger economic turmoil.

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

Eidorian
Feb 4, 2009, 01:08 PM
Times are tough.

MacBuddySupport
Feb 4, 2009, 01:27 PM
Times are tough.

You Got that right!

ezpk69
Feb 4, 2009, 01:34 PM
Of course, if journalists were required to base their headlines on the content of the story, one might more accurately title that article "Netbooks bruise MacBook demand", but that wouldn't get as many clicks, I guess.

Shasterball
Feb 4, 2009, 01:35 PM
I guess they can try to just muster through. No point in developing a computer they are not interested in just so they can capture a "temporary market" (recession will be over before they settle on a netbook design they like...).

wavelayer
Feb 4, 2009, 01:55 PM
I've stopped buying organic food lately, and I'm actually considering a netbook myself. I've always bought mac in the past but...beggers can't be choosers.;)

nastebu
Feb 4, 2009, 01:56 PM
Doesn't Apple's sales always slip at the beginning of the year? I think it's historically their worst quarter.

The whole article is silly. There's no evidence provided that sales are falling more than usual, and it's pure speculation to connect the expanding netbook market with a fall in Apple's notebook sales. Seems Apples and oranges to me.

CptnJustc
Feb 4, 2009, 01:58 PM
I think Apple's "we only want to make the best" line is the wrong tack here. Netbooks are not just super-cheap laptops, they serve a different function. I imagine it's possible to make machines that do what they do better than anyone else.

cube
Feb 4, 2009, 01:58 PM
Lack of FireWire kills Macbook demand.

Eric S.
Feb 4, 2009, 01:59 PM
According to the article, "27 percent of those who plan to buy a laptop in the next 90 days say they will choose a Mac. That's down six points from the last survey." But that may just reflect the fact that most people who were planning to get one of the new Macbooks already have. On the other hand, "Apple did see a 1 point increase in the percentage of desktop purchasers who plan to buy a Mac," which may show that customers are still waiting for iMacs and Mac Pros.

ateslik
Feb 4, 2009, 02:00 PM
Hey Apple! Here's a novel idea: make computers people actually want. That means a FIREWIRE port on the macbook and a optical drive on the macbook air. Pffft - a laptop you can put in a manila envelope. RIDICULOUS.

BenRoethig
Feb 4, 2009, 02:01 PM
Times are tough.

And cupertino can be less than flexible.

Lack of FireWire kills Macbook demand.

That too, but not with this crowd.

speakerwizard
Feb 4, 2009, 02:03 PM
netbooks wont be around for long, people will only buy them once and learn they are pretty useless and age fast, and with the growing number of feature-phones with internet they are less and less desirable.

rockinrocker
Feb 4, 2009, 02:06 PM
Lack of FireWire kills Macbook demand.

seconded.

elppa
Feb 4, 2009, 02:12 PM
netbooks wont be around for long, people will only buy them once and learn they are pretty useless and age fast, and with the growing number of feature-phones with internet they are less and less desirable.

There a stepping stone to the smartphone. Whilst you can't do much content creation on a smart phone you can't really do much on your average Netbook either, with their small screens and keyboards. And combining a small screen + high resolution is just a different problem, not a solution.

godrifle
Feb 4, 2009, 02:20 PM
Lack of FireWire kills Macbook demand.

Yes. 1. There are no replacement option for many firewire devices (try doing multi-camera streaming without firewire); 2. When I factor the expense of replacing two 3-chip firewire consumer grade cameras, a firewire A/D converter for mics, plus the price differential between the Machine that Former Worked With It All (a MacBook) and the Much More Expensive Machine That Works With It All Now (a MacBook Pro), this is a no brainer for me: no replacement.

That translates directly to Apple's bottom line. No $5 Firewire port, no profit earned from a sale of a MacBook to me.

emmab2006
Feb 4, 2009, 02:33 PM
Time are hard , but apple has ALWAYS ripped there customers off with hardware which was in PC'S long ago , Macbooks are a rip off for what is in them ,

IJ Reilly
Feb 4, 2009, 02:42 PM
Doesn't Apple's sales always slip at the beginning of the year? I think it's historically their worst quarter.

The whole article is silly. There's no evidence provided that sales are falling more than usual, and it's pure speculation to connect the expanding netbook market with a fall in Apple's notebook sales. Seems Apples and oranges to me.

Exactly. The article does not disclose when the previous survey was conducted, or if any adjustments have been made for seasonality. This makes it worthless as evidence of any trend. But that won't stop some from claiming that it proves whatever they already believed.

kingtj
Feb 4, 2009, 02:52 PM
The fact is, the majority don't even know what "firewire" IS, much less care if it's missing on their new Macbook.

My ex-g/f, for example, bought a white Macbook a couple years ago, for use in grad. school. Now? She wants the new aluminum version. Never ONCE plugged a single thing into the firewire port, and won't be missing it.

And the Macbook Air situation? Really, it's always been a "niche market" machine. It's lacking PLENTY of expansion ports, as well as the optical drive - and is obviously intended to appeal to a crowd who simply wants a sleek, thin and lightweight OS X based notebook for tasks like web surfing and email. It's kind of a "satellite computer" to an existing desktop system, in other words.


Hey Apple! Here's a novel idea: make computers people actually want. That means a FIREWIRE port on the macbook and a optical drive on the macbook air. Pffft - a laptop you can put in a manila envelope. RIDICULOUS.

aerospace
Feb 4, 2009, 02:55 PM
A survey's results and Apple's actual performance are very different.

"Macintosh computer sales reached 2.5 million units, a 9% increase from a year ago. Mac sales were boosted by strong increases in MacBook portable sales, which rose 34% from a year ago to 1.8 million units, but desktop sales fell 25% to 728,000 Macs."
...from marketwatch.com 1-25-09

Sales are up 34%... How exactly do you see netbooks having any negative effect?

I read somewhere this past quarter Apple had more sales and more profit than in any time in it's history.

uburoibob
Feb 4, 2009, 02:55 PM
How many netbooks have FireWire?

elppa
Feb 4, 2009, 03:00 PM
Time are hard , but apple has ALWAYS ripped there customers off with hardware which was in PC'S long ago , Macbooks are a rip off for what is in them ,

If you only looking at a list of hardware components then yes, pound for pound you get more from a PC.

But is it a rip off?

Certainly Apple isn't selling components at the lowest price (CORE 2 DUO LAPTOP, 250GB HDD, 3GB RAM, 24-IN-ONE MEMORY CARD READER GREAT VALUE ONLY £399 crippled wifi, bluetooth - forget it, flimsy keyboard, clumsy trackpad, crap display, Vista Basic, 7lb, 90 minute battery), they are selling a product. A product which is engineered to serve a particular purpose and serve it well.

Part of that engineering effort involves figuring out what to leave out and which areas focus on that will make a difference during the products life. In short there is a bit more focus on “how well does this serve it's purpose” and a bit less on “how do we fit the cheapest components in the cheapest case possible”.

Hence Apple can charge the prices they do and still grow their market share. And of course if people don't want to buy Apple products then there are plenty of alternatives.

Currently the Macintosh doesn't really appeal to those who analyse checklists and count up bullet points. I don't think it ever has done to be honest.

If you value strong industrial design, Mac look and feel software, the unique value proposition of OS X (UNIX based, POSIX compliant, good development tools etc), and great after sales care then I don't think a generic PC really appeals much either.

Eidorian
Feb 4, 2009, 03:01 PM
And cupertino can be less than flexible.I'm not going to complain too much about that when it comes to a netbook.

NT1440
Feb 4, 2009, 03:03 PM
Funny there are still people out there that are in the market for a macbook, but wouldnt EVER consider a netbook. AKA me.

Nice headline on that article:rolleyes: sensationalism rocks!

gregorsamsa
Feb 4, 2009, 03:06 PM
Time are hard , but apple has ALWAYS ripped there customers off with hardware which was in PC'S long ago , Macbooks are a rip off for what is in them ,

I think most people who buy Macs don't buy them just for "what's in them", but for overall quality, time-saving performance, OS X & some great software, by which I don't just mean iLife. That said, I'd like to see more competitive pricing from Apple, which I'm confident will happen later as production costs on the new MacBooks are reduced.

The fact that Mac market share has been growing steadily for years now strongly suggests that Apple's customers don't feel they're being ripped off, as you claim, but think that the products are worth paying a little extra for.

Kirkafur
Feb 4, 2009, 03:11 PM
Apple can stand to lower prices. A netbook with hackintosh sounds fine to me if I don't need it for very much.

Eric S.
Feb 4, 2009, 03:31 PM
The fact is, the majority don't even know what "firewire" IS, much less care if it's missing on their new Macbook.

My ex-g/f, for example, bought a white Macbook a couple years ago, for use in grad. school. Now? She wants the new aluminum version. Never ONCE plugged a single thing into the firewire port, and won't be missing it.

No one in my family has ever had cancer. All that medical research into it must be wasted.

Rychiar
Feb 4, 2009, 03:31 PM
i dont know a single person with a "netbook" who cares:rolleyes:

quagmire
Feb 4, 2009, 03:36 PM
No one in my family has ever had cancer. All that medical research into it must be wasted.

Yeah, but are the users demanding FireWire the majority of Macbook buyers? If the majority don't give a hoot about firewire and Apple has room for one more expansion port what will Apple do? Add a FW400 port and leave consumers with one USB port or have two USB ports and remove FW?

Sadly, MB buyers needing FW are in the minority. Same can be said for any business. I want a RWD Impala, but due to CAFE and the perception of RWD getting lower fuel economy then FWD, GM killed that idea. So the minority gets screwed due to the majority.

Eric S.
Feb 4, 2009, 03:51 PM
Yeah, but are the users demanding FireWire the majority of Macbook buyers? If the majority don't give a hoot about firewire and Apple has room for one more expansion port what will Apple do? Add a FW400 port and leave consumers with one USB port or have two USB ports and remove FW?

I don't want to rehash the Firewire debate yet again, but those are all specious arguments.

1. Do a majority of customers use the audio input on the MB? Or the external monitor port? Or both USB ports at the same time? I would expect these are all a minority of MB buyers too.
2. Apple found room for a Firewire port on its entry-level laptop for the last eight years. Nothing has changed now except a desire for more profits, by forcing a certain set of users to a higher-margin product.
3. If someone needs to use both USB ports, small external hubs are easily available and cheap. But removing the FW port leaves users with no options.

jayducharme
Feb 4, 2009, 03:58 PM
netbooks wont be around for long, people will only buy them once and learn they are pretty useless and age fast, and with the growing number of feature-phones with internet they are less and less desirable.

Possibly. But for many people the only thing that matters is the price. I have friends who bought cheap PCs and are continually having problems with them. They keep coming to me for advice. All I say is, "Buy a Mac." But they refuse to do it. The price stops them (even though, with all the repairs and add-ons, they're actually spending more in the long run on their "cheap" PC). And it seems like the people who always go cheap are those who are often the least technologically-savvy. So they're even more likely to have trouble with their computers. For them, the only way they'd get a Mac is if it were priced like an e-Machine. And that's not likely.

CrackedButter
Feb 4, 2009, 04:07 PM
The fact is, the majority don't even know what "firewire" IS, much less care if it's missing on their new Macbook.

My ex-g/f, for example, bought a white Macbook a couple years ago, for use in grad. school. Now? She wants the new aluminum version. Never ONCE plugged a single thing into the firewire port, and won't be missing it.


This is an easy generalisation to make, you can't back that up with any sources other than your honest anecdote. I've been there myself but this isn't how it is. Has nobody realised that Apple speak about their products in store and explain these technologies, I would be more optimistic about people's knowledge of firewire. In the magazines I read I always see USB and Firewire tech next to each other, people are not blind.

So I doubt it is just ignorance, maybe it is down to price, a lot of people could find it hard to justify the same hard drive with a $30-40 price difference because of 1 port being different.

Saying that, I'd like to point out the netbooks sold in Tesco of all places for £200 have 3 USB ports and a 5 in 1 card reader (this is a bottom of the barrel Aspire One btw, some others have room for a express card slot).

But Apple sell a £900 laptop with only 2 USB ports and no card reader? It is no contest, tough luck Apple.

zap2
Feb 4, 2009, 04:10 PM
i dont know a single person with a "netbook" who cares:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

I've never bought that "personal" argument, maybe you know people in a field
which requires a different laptop, maybe you know all poor people who can't afford any computer, maybe you know rich people who would never buy a netbook, maybe you don't know many people

(I'm not saying those are the types of people you know, but hopefully you see my point)

Sale data is where they numbers are at, and they are high(last I saw, something like 14M)

emmab2006
Feb 4, 2009, 05:19 PM
i wasn't intending to upset lol , i am a proud apple user lol , i own an iPhone 3g and imac core duo , as-well as an msi wind , i just think apple need to be abit fairer on price to there customers ,

areyouwishing
Feb 4, 2009, 05:22 PM
I've owned over 10 macs in my life, but in late 2008 I finally purchased my first PC Laptop. I did this for several reasons, and none of it was because of the netbook community.

1. Screen - Apple doesn't make a 14" or 13" 1440x900 LED Matte display - the same res as my 17" iMac.

2. Firewire - I didn't want to have to go to a big 15" just for firewire.

3. GPS / 3G Built in - Not really possible on a Macbook/Pro

4. Switchable Graphics without reboot - Again, not possible.

5. Trackpoint - Macs don't have them, Thinkpads do. I dislike the new trackpad.

6. Most of my most used software runs on a PC - Lightroom, and all adobe apps.

7. Apple has been noted as one of the least philanthropic tech companies

8. I do more "work" on windows - I needed a machine that could be work and play without a VM or dual boot. There are still some things I miss from OS X. Coda, CSSEdit, Aperture, Camino to name a few.

9. DVI out - None of this display port business.. which right now, isn't very well supported.

10. There is a ton of crappy software in the windows community... they need help. WPF and C# and a programmer with Mac experience can go a long way.

ditzy
Feb 4, 2009, 05:39 PM
I'm sure I read an article nearly identical to that at the beginning of the last quarter. They turned out to be wrong then. Also if 1 in 5 who say that they want to buy a portable say they will buy a netbook. That means that 4 in 5 want a regular notebook. I'll be more interested when there is actual evidence rather than speculation that netbooks affect macbook sales.

elppa
Feb 4, 2009, 05:43 PM
I've owned over 10 macs in my life, but in late 2008 I finally purchased my first PC Laptop. I did this for several reasons, and none of it was because of the netbook community.

1. Screen - Apple doesn't make a 14" or 13" 1440x900 LED Matte display - the same res as my 17" iMac.

2. Firewire - I didn't want to have to go to a big 15" just for firewire.

3. GPS / 3G Built in - Not really possible on a Macbook/Pro

4. Switchable Graphics without reboot - Again, not possible.

5. Trackpoint - Macs don't have them, Thinkpads do. I dislike the new trackpad.

6. Most of my most used software runs on a PC - Lightroom, and all adobe apps.

7. Apple has been noted as one of the least philanthropic tech companies

8. I do more "work" on windows - I needed a machine that could be work and play without a VM or dual boot. There are still some things I miss from OS X. Coda, CSSEdit, Aperture, Camino to name a few.

9. DVI out - None of this display port business.. which right now, isn't very well supported.

10. There is a ton of crappy software in the windows community... they need help. WPF and C# and a programmer with Mac experience can go a long way.

I'm intrigued by which machine did you go for (Lenovo X301? That would fit the bill of 13" 1400x900 LED screen, trackpoint and WWAN, but not the hybrid graphics, Firewire or DVI out).

Also — the OS X doesn't need to be restarted to switch graphics, but you are logged out and in again (in order to restart the Window Manager). It's inconvenient, un-Apple like behaviour that hopefully will be fixed.

Interesting comments about Windows software, that more does not necessarily equal better.

I've always been intrigued where the quality was (the Panic's and Omni's of the Windows world).
Is there a hidden gold-mine of great Windows apps with the wonderful fit and finish you get on the Mac side just waiting to be found?

winninganthem
Feb 4, 2009, 06:02 PM
I think the idea that netbooks are only getting popular only because of economic downturn is incorrect.

Netbooks are a relatively new market and more and more people are finding themselves wanting a lightweight computer that can accomplish not much more than web and office tasks. I know a lot of people have netbooks in addition to primary laptops or desktops because it's just convenient.

I don't think I've heard of anyone who has bought a netbook as their primary machine before! Only if this was true, then you could say that economic downturn is a major factor, but people buying these things in addition to their existing computers does not show economic downturn.

People simply just want an ultraportable machine to do their work on.

mkrishnan
Feb 4, 2009, 06:23 PM
I think the idea that netbooks are only getting popular only because of economic downturn is incorrect.

I think there are sizable but distinct groups of people who like netbooks primarily because they are cheap and primarily because they are small / new / interesting / easy to hack / etc, with the latter group being much less price sensitive.

But I think both groups are important -- this is why many of the netbooks got a lot physically bigger. The companies realized that they were catering to a lot of customers who had little desire for a 1kg notebook but were really turned on by a $300 price tag. Much to the frustration of customers from the latter category.

After the initial massive dominance of Asus, I feel like the market for netbooks is pretty fragmented now. I wonder if it will become more cohesive again.

gregorsamsa
Feb 4, 2009, 06:28 PM
i wasn't intending to upset lol , i am a proud apple user lol , i own an iPhone 3g and imac core duo , as-well as an msi wind , i just think apple need to be abit fairer on price to there customers ,

I've criticized Apple often enough in the past & I imagine no-one here has any issues with your comment whatsoever. Besides, if everyone here agreed about everything Apple do or don't do, I'm sure the boredom would soon be overwhelming. - Having both a Mac & a netbook for occasional use may indeed be the best way to go for some people. :rolleyes:

zap2
Feb 4, 2009, 06:48 PM
After the initial massive dominance of Asus, I feel like the market for netbooks is pretty fragmented now. I wonder if it will become more cohesive again.

I don't about that...I think Acer has maybe 35%, Asus had low 30s%, and HP has like 7% in third.(not sure if those are US or world numbers)

In anything I think the market for netbook is still being cut up, I doubt HP(plus Dell,Lenovo, Sony, Samsung, etc) will sit around with that low of a market share.

Currently the market looks a bit like the Laptop/Desktop market, but HP and Dell were replaced by Asus and Acer, and gain 10 market points.

LPZ
Feb 4, 2009, 06:49 PM
Lack of FireWire kills Macbook demand.

The new White MacBook includes a FireWire 400 port (as well as a NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics processor, 2GB of memory and a SuperDrive).

Take a look at the specs (http://www.apple.com/macbook/white/specs.html).

gwangung
Feb 4, 2009, 09:50 PM
I don't want to rehash the Firewire debate yet again, but those are all specious arguments.
.

No, they aren't. It's called knowing your customer base.

You know YOU. A customer. But you don't know the customer base.

Mr_Brightside_@
Feb 4, 2009, 09:52 PM
Hey Apple! Here's a novel idea: make computers people actually want. That means a FIREWIRE port on the macbook and a optical drive on the macbook air. Pffft - a laptop you can put in a manila envelope. RIDICULOUS.
Really? Still?

Michael CM1
Feb 4, 2009, 09:57 PM
This article is just plain stupid.

First, for all the firewire complaining, the $999 WhiteBook has FireWire. Otherwise, get a MBP.

As far as netbooks, what exactly is supposed to say that Netbooks are cutting into MacBook sales? Is it the vague "Apple will clearly be one of the strongest trees still standing in the forest" comment? That said to me that Apple would be the strongest computer maker at this time, shown by the big profits at the latest quarterly sales unveiling.

There's just so little evidence in that article that it's silly. One research firm? That's it? Plus, the headline used for this post includes "kill" instead of "ebb," which is what I saw on the article. Sounds like a little fluffing up from whomever posted it.

spaceballl
Feb 4, 2009, 10:08 PM
I'm pretty convinced that the next iPhone will end up being more powerful than most netbooks we see right now on the market. The browsing experience is already great, but if it were a bit more snappy and had a higher res screen, netbook who?

rmhop81
Feb 4, 2009, 10:31 PM
I'm pretty convinced that the next iPhone will end up being more powerful than most netbooks we see right now on the market. The browsing experience is already great, but if it were a bit more snappy and had a higher res screen, netbook who?
you can buy an iphone for around the same price as a netbook. the netbook doesn't have a $100/month fee to it like an iphone does. also there is no full keyboard and it has a tiny screen. you people don't understand the point of the netbook. u act like people are carrying these in their back pocket. it's not a phone it's a computer. i have a 12inch dell laptop and i've thought about selling it to get a netbook as i rarely use the optical drive etc. why would i pay $300 for an iphone and pay $100/month to have some tiny screen in my pocket and have to type with my thumbs?? it's not even in the same category at all. These are also affordable for people who couldn't buy a laptop in the 1st place. iphone is the most overrated thing ever. $1200/year for cell phone service? come on!

Jayomat
Feb 4, 2009, 10:37 PM
I'm pretty convinced that the next iPhone will end up being more powerful than most netbooks we see right now on the market. The browsing experience is already great, but if it were a bit more snappy and had a higher res screen, netbook who?

c'mon, you can't be serious on this. more powerfull than netbooks?
You cannot compare an iphone to a netbook.... oh my......

but maybe we should get our definition of "more powerfull" in line ?! ;)

IJ Reilly
Feb 4, 2009, 10:39 PM
I thought the iPhone was $200 and the least expensive plan was $80 a month. Anyway, why not buy an iPod touch? Same internet functionality as a netbook, no monthly fees.

Or is that too simple?

canucksfan88
Feb 5, 2009, 12:35 AM
yes because netbooks arnt half as expensive
i completly understand that to buy an mac you must pay a premium....but...these days...what do u get for it?
nothing really special

MidtownFreak
Feb 5, 2009, 12:45 AM
The iPhone is Apple's netbook. Period. Yes, we can debate for months on end on the advantages a real netbook may have over it. But, that doesn't change the fact that Apple can't introduce a netbook without completely destroying their business model.

I really think that the iPhone will become a better, stronger netbook contender in terms of performance and usability in the coming years.

63dot
Feb 5, 2009, 01:09 AM
I consider them very different animals. A netbook is a simplified laptop down to the absolute bare bones and an excellent secondary computer. Good for simple tasks. When I first heard of them and tried them out, I thought they were low cost full on laptops. But several tries later, I realized it was more of an underpowered laptop.

The Macbooks, all of them, on the other hand, are full featured computers that are good as main computers. The Macbook has everything in it, the Macbook Pro is faster with some more features, and the MBA is the lightest version but still has a lot to offer.

If the Macbook demand is going down, it's probably due solely to the slow economy and not the netbooks.

Saying that the netbook affects Macbooks is like saying the iPod touch has cut into the Macbook's market. Maybe the parents who may have thought of a Macbook as a second computer have gone to a netbook as a second computer. But the netbook, for what it is, is not a good first computer like any Mac can be. My main computer is a Mac mini and it has plenty of space, speed, and programs on it for me.

DrumApple
Feb 5, 2009, 01:23 AM
Hah, if Apple made a netbook I would buy it. I got the opportunity to use an Eee PC netbook, and we returned it within a few days it was so terrible. The iPod/iPhone is 100% more efficient than any netbook. Not to mention that Netbooks all have false advertising with the amount of storage space included. For example, "Includes a 8GB HD", but it doesn't tell you that 7GB are already used, and if you download any updates or anything-your screwed!

bigjnyc
Feb 5, 2009, 08:39 AM
I guess price is the biggest factor especially for those needing a laptop as a second computer for light use. I'll give you a perfect example.....

My friend is a die-hard OSX fan so he was in the market for a laptop to complement his iMac, with a wedding coming up and having just bought a condo he didnt have much money to spend, but really wanted something to use around the house on the couch or when he travels. Anyways he hates buying used after getting burned a few times. The macbook air would have been perfect for his needs but way out of his price range..... just when he was about to drop $1200 on a macbook one of his co-workers showed him an MSI wind running OSX. So he said what the heck let me give this a shot, it was $379 for the MSI wind brand new $15 for a 1gb stick to bring the total to 2gb of ram. Thats all he needed and he installed OSX (he had a retail family pack of leopard at home) and had everything working as normal (except for the headphone jack, which he doesnt intend to use anyway) so now he has a super portable laptop, the battery life is great with the 6-cell battery, its super lightweight and it runs OSX perfectly. I played with it a little and i have to say i was impressed with how fast it was for everyday run of the mill computer usage. And he saved himself $800.

So as you can see for some people netbooks can come in handy, while others are repulsed by them, thats life i guess.

Eric S.
Feb 5, 2009, 10:19 AM
The iPhone is Apple's netbook. Period. Yes, we can debate for months on end on the advantages a real netbook may have over it. But, that doesn't change the fact that Apple can't introduce a netbook without completely destroying their business model.

Really? You think they couldn't differentiate between a netbook and a phone?

I have a touch, and it certainly doesn't work as a netbook for me. Anything but the most minimal web browsing is painful - the screen size is difficult to deal with, and forget anything that involves user input.

63dot
Feb 5, 2009, 10:27 AM
I guess price is the biggest factor especially for those needing a laptop as a second computer for light use. I'll give you a perfect example.....

My friend is a die-hard OSX fan so he was in the market for a laptop to complement his iMac, with a wedding coming up and having just bought a condo he didnt have much money to spend, but really wanted something to use around the house on the couch or when he travels. Anyways he hates buying used after getting burned a few times. The macbook air would have been perfect for his needs but way out of his price range..... just when he was about to drop $1200 on a macbook one of his co-workers showed him an MSI wind running OSX. So he said what the heck let me give this a shot, it was $379 for the MSI wind brand new $15 for a 1gb stick to bring the total to 2gb of ram. Thats all he needed and he installed OSX (he had a retail family pack of leopard at home) and had everything working as normal (except for the headphone jack, which he doesnt intend to use anyway) so now he has a super portable laptop, the battery life is great with the 6-cell battery, its super lightweight and it runs OSX perfectly. I played with it a little and i have to say i was impressed with how fast it was for everyday run of the mill computer usage. And he saved himself $800.

So as you can see for some people netbooks can come in handy, while others are repulsed by them, thats life i guess.

What's interesting is that while some Apple fans don't like this idea, Apple and Microsoft make better than a 30% percent "net" profit on software, and Apple, like any hardware company, make a much smaller net profit on hardware. Their gross, after assemblers and parts, is 30%, and after retailers or operations of their own stores, it's actually a few percent. I still don't know why Apple doesn't just make OS X for any PC the way they made iPods compatible with PCs and made billions of dollars.

When I was in computer retail for a "large" retailer, our profit on an IBM Thinkpad was $10 dollars. We made a killing on software titles though. Our competition in the Mega Mall bought out Macs right after Macworld, from the previous generation, and that large retailer would sell off their Macs far below cost to bring people in. We couldn't compete with them so we dropped Macs.

In the real world of computer hardware sales, there is almost no money in it for the maker or the retailer. That's why when I go into the local Apple Store, all I see being sold are software titles, iPod accessories, and computer accessories and the markup on that stuff is obscene.

A good way to think about it is cheap inkjet printers and overpriced ink.

FastEddy
Feb 5, 2009, 10:35 AM
I consider them very different animals. A netbook is a simplified laptop down to the absolute bare bones and an excellent secondary computer. ... The Macbook has everything in it ... If the Macbook demand is going down, it's probably due solely to the slow economy and not the netbooks. ...

The elimination of the FireWire ports on Apple's "low end" laptops cut them out of the professional audio market and made a dent in sales to lower rez video makers (advertising).

And of course there is that media pumped scare, "the economy" ...

For me, I have put off upgrading my two year old MacBook because of the lack of a FireWire port on all but the top end (or a slot for adding such), needed for my hobby and profession, on location audio recording. :(

cube
Feb 5, 2009, 11:47 AM
How many netbooks have FireWire?

You have to look properly. There are several netbooks with an ExpressCard slot.

Anyway, the point is that I was disputing that the reason for the drop is that people are buying netbooks instead of Macbooks.

cube
Feb 5, 2009, 11:48 AM
The new White MacBook includes a FireWire 400 port (as well as a NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics processor, 2GB of memory and a SuperDrive).

Take a look at the specs (http://www.apple.com/macbook/white/specs.html).

People don't like to be forced to buy old stuff because the new one is a downgrade.

cube
Feb 5, 2009, 11:53 AM
The fact is, the majority don't even know what "firewire" IS, much less care if it's missing on their new Macbook.


The majority of Macbook buyers are Mac users, not switchers.
Smart Mac users don't want a computer without FireWire.

mkrishnan
Feb 5, 2009, 12:00 PM
Same internet functionality as a netbook, no monthly fees.

Having an iPhone and an (original) Eee, they just are not the same in that regard at all. The iPhone is great on the web for finding pieces of information, wiling away time on the train, etc. But there are a fairly large set of basic web tasks that are frustrating or impossible on it -- besides the absence of Flash, filling out forms is a major nuisance, posting on forums, blogs, etc, is very difficult. A basic task like uploading a photo to a website and then forum or blog posting it is very difficult on the iPhone unless the forum or blog you're using has made specific accommodations to make it easier.

In contrast, there really is honestly almost nothing on the web that I can't do just as easily on my Eee as on either of my computers with larger displays, save for occasionally things like flash-based photo editors are too big to fit onscreen (and for the newer netbooks I wouldn't see this as an issue).

I don't take my netbook around town with me much, but when I travel, I bring it and my iPhone. I use them for fairly different things. The only overlapping thing would be watching movies, which I do on the Eee only because it's a lot faster to rip a full DVD via MTR or Fairmount and put it on an SDHC card than it is to convert it into a file that will play on the iPhone....

BenRoethig
Feb 5, 2009, 12:06 PM
This article is just plain stupid.

First, for all the firewire complaining, the $999 WhiteBook has FireWire. Otherwise, get a MBP.

Wow its really that simple. I can get a low end white model without the new trackpad for $1000 or I can get a big heavy 15" for $2000. How about instead of addressing the complaining, we address the excuses to justify Apple's mistakes.

SteveMobs
Feb 5, 2009, 12:10 PM
negatron! Macbook is much more capable than a netbook. Now the air, that's a different story.

IJ Reilly
Feb 5, 2009, 12:11 PM
Having an iPhone and an (original) Eee, they just are not the same in that regard at all. The iPhone is great on the web for finding pieces of information, wiling away time on the train, etc. But there are a fairly large set of basic web tasks that are frustrating or impossible on it -- besides the absence of Flash, filling out forms is a major nuisance, posting on forums, blogs, etc, is very difficult. A basic task like uploading a photo to a website and then forum or blog posting it is very difficult on the iPhone unless the forum or blog you're using has made specific accommodations to make it easier.

Understood, it depends on what you need. But I was responding to the argument that you need to buy an iPhone and pay $100/month to have any of the capabilities of a netbook. An iPod touch gets you much of that functionality for far less. Granted, this solution won't meet everyone's needs in a tiny portable, but it does have advantages that others (such as myself) appreciate. I think most of who've given this much thought probably agree that if Apple does move into the netbook market that they will do so by scaling up the iPhone/touch, not by scaling down the MacBook.

katorga
Feb 5, 2009, 04:01 PM
The iPhone platform is Apple's netbook, and I think we will see a 7" tablet with 3G (dataplan only) and wifi before too long.

The Macbook Air is a marketing tool to keep Apple at the forefront of consumer perceptions about who makes the coolest, most advanced, geewiz laptops.

Macbooks and iMac's are the money makers.

FWIW, I got OSX running on one of the Dell netbooks with little or no hassle. Apple could easily move into the low cost space if they wanted too.

mkrishnan
Feb 5, 2009, 04:45 PM
if Apple does move into the netbook market that they will do so by scaling up the iPhone/touch, not by scaling down the MacBook.

Yeah, I agree with this also, and I think it could be a really interesting product (presumably something with either a physical keyboard or a larger multi-touch onscreen keyboard, a faster processor, a better system for light document storage, and some of the obvious web-related abilities like Flash and so on). Such a device could be really interesting.

IJ Reilly
Feb 5, 2009, 05:18 PM
Yeah, I agree with this also, and I think it could be a really interesting product (presumably something with either a physical keyboard or a larger multi-touch onscreen keyboard, a faster processor, a better system for light document storage, and some of the obvious web-related abilities like Flash and so on). Such a device could be really interesting.

The potential is so intriguing that I have postponed replacing my 12" PowerBook until I find out where Apple is going with this platform.

mkrishnan
Feb 5, 2009, 05:52 PM
The potential is so intriguing that I have postponed replacing my 12" PowerBook until I find out where Apple is going with this platform.

If they can make it compete with Kindle and the netbooks at the same time, I might just have a spontaneous orgasm. :o

Eric S.
Feb 5, 2009, 05:55 PM
The potential is so intriguing that I have postponed replacing my 12" PowerBook until I find out where Apple is going with this platform.

Wherever it's going, I expect it is going slowly. Apple can't even seem to update the mini or iMac at this point.

IJ Reilly
Feb 5, 2009, 06:06 PM
If they can make it compete with Kindle and the netbooks at the same time, I might just have a spontaneous orgasm. :o

TMI.

Wherever it's going, I expect it is going slowly. Apple can't even seem to update the mini or iMac at this point.

For different reasons of their own which have nothing to do with anything else.

Eric S.
Feb 5, 2009, 06:22 PM
For different reasons of their own which have nothing to do with anything else.

Well, what would those be? It seems to me that Apple may be having trouble keeping its basic computer products up to date because it's juggling so many items already - iPhone, iPods, MobileMe, Snow Leopard, etc. Tossing a mini-tablet into the mix would further strain the already overburdened development effort.

IJ Reilly
Feb 5, 2009, 06:31 PM
Well, what would those be? It seems to me that Apple may be having trouble keeping its basic computer products up to date because it's juggling so many items already - iPhone, iPods, MobileMe, Snow Leopard, etc. Tossing a mini-tablet into the mix would further strain the already overburdened development effort.

I don't see the evidence for that as the cause. On the mini and the iMac, a lot depends on Intel and their processor release cycle. Some of the rumors point directly to processor development as the reason for the long cycle on both. We also don't know much about Apple's current inventory pipeline, which might have backed up some due to the recession. Anyway, far too many possible causes to instantly attribute it to an inability to keep up, something which hasn't been a big problem in the past. Apple does what they are going to do when they are good and ready, and not before. That's one thing we ought to know from watching their behavior over the years.

Eric S.
Feb 5, 2009, 06:52 PM
I don't see the evidence for that as the cause. On the mini and the iMac, a lot depends on Intel and their processor release cycle. Some of the rumors point directly to processor development as the reason for the long cycle on both. We also don't know much about Apple's current inventory pipeline, which might have backed up some due to the recession.

Hmm, I guess I'm not convinced, especially about the processor release cycle. Quad-core Penryns have been out for ages, unless Apple is going to do something truly surprising for the iMac like switch to desktop-quality Nehalems. And putting the equivalent of a headless aluminum Macbook into a mini case should be a snap.

Anyway, far too many possible causes to instantly attribute it to an inability to keep up, something which hasn't been a big problem in the past. Apple does what they are going to do when they are good and ready, and not before. That's one thing we ought to know from watching their behavior over the years.

True, Apple does what it wants when it wants, but it also doesn't often get out onto the bleeding edge technologically anymore. Although when it does the results are often spectacular, e.g., iPod, iPhone.

NT1440
Feb 5, 2009, 07:02 PM
Hmm, I guess I'm not convinced, especially about the processor release cycle. Quad-core Penryns have been out for ages, unless Apple is going to do something truly surprising for the iMac like switch to desktop-quality Nehalems. And putting the equivalent of a headless aluminum Macbook into a mini case should be a snap.


What he was basically saying was that you have no evidence to support your claim of apples reasons for doing what its doing other than not putting out the new mini or imac. We'd like to stick to facts around these points when making a statement, not baseless assumptions.

No offense by any of this.

Eric S.
Feb 5, 2009, 07:13 PM
What he was basically saying was that you have no evidence to support your claim of apples reasons for doing what its doing other than not putting out the new mini or imac. We'd like to stick to facts around these points when making a statement, not baseless assumptions.

And what I was basically saying was why should we expect Apple to put out a new product before they update the ones that ought to be their bread and butter. It's not a baseless assumption that the mini and the iMac are quite overdue for updates.

No offense by any of this.

None taken.

MidtownFreak
Feb 5, 2009, 07:57 PM
Really? You think they couldn't differentiate between a netbook and a phone?

I have a touch, and it certainly doesn't work as a netbook for me. Anything but the most minimal web browsing is painful - the screen size is difficult to deal with, and forget anything that involves user input.

Right, that's why I mentioned the fact that the advantages of an actual netbook over an iPhone can be forever debated.

The reason I fell that Apple's iPhone is their "netbook" is simply because Apple can't release an actual netbook due to their saturation of their pricing strategy. For example, if Apple were to release an NB at $499, that would drastically alter the perceived value of a regular MacBook by consumers -- so failure. If they were to release one at a higher premium price (approaching $899) that would either cause MacBook Air to collapse in perceived value, or make the netbook a tough sell (because for $100 more, you can just get a MacBook). This is without even considering how it would affect iPhone sales or Mac Minis.

Digital Skunk
Feb 5, 2009, 08:00 PM
The iPhone is Apple's netbook. Period. Yes, we can debate for months on end on the advantages a real netbook may have over it. But, that doesn't change the fact that Apple can't introduce a netbook without completely destroying their business model.

I really think that the iPhone will become a better, stronger netbook contender in terms of performance and usability in the coming years.

The iPhone barely makes it as a smartphone, you can't even copy and past or edit documents, so it fails miserably as a netbook.

63dot
Feb 5, 2009, 08:28 PM
Right, that's why I mentioned the fact that the advantages of an actual netbook over an iPhone can be forever debated.

The reason I fell that Apple's iPhone is their "netbook" is simply because Apple can't release an actual netbook due to their saturation of their pricing strategy. For example, if Apple were to release an NB at $499, that would drastically alter the perceived value of a regular MacBook by consumers -- so failure. If they were to release one at a higher premium price (approaching $899) that would either cause MacBook Air to collapse in perceived value, or make the netbook a tough sell (because for $100 more, you can just get a MacBook). This is without even considering how it would affect iPhone sales or Mac Minis.

It's OK to have several tiers of products: Mac mini, iMac, and Mac Pro. They really don't bump into each others' markets.

For laptops, it's the old school Macbook, unibody Macbook, Macbook Air, 15" inch Macbook Pro, and 17" inch Macbook Pro and they don't alter each others' markets.

A Mac netbook and a touchscreen pad type of Mac would compliment the iPod, iPod touch, iPod nanos, iPod Shuffles, and iPhones.

One underestimates the great love that Mac and iPod/iPhone users have for new items from Apple Inc. Gone are the days when something cool like the Cube or the Newton come out and nobody responds. Apple Inc. has cemented their image with us Mac users and many a PC user as a great brand, even if seen only as a high end boutique brand by some.

Even if Apple were to make printers again, or a scanner, there would be a market out there.

NT1440
Feb 5, 2009, 08:33 PM
It's not a baseless assumption that the mini and the iMac are quite overdue for updates.


Agreed on that, i just meant your ideas as to why there hasn't been an update yet (too busy with other things) is baseless.

MidtownFreak
Feb 5, 2009, 08:43 PM
The iPhone barely makes it as a smartphone, you can't even copy and past or edit documents, so it fails miserably as a netbook.

Haha, yeah. Still, I have faith that Apple is really just getting started with iPhone's capabilities. It will need to evolve if it wan't to even get a true competitive stance with netbooks.


As for the MacBook market, they seemingly would collide. Because if for a hypothetical $500 NB you can get an "Apple laptop", where would the justification come from for paying an extra $700 for a MacBook? Yes, they would be more powerful, but MacBooks already fill the demand for light-consumer uses.

Also, Apple has already learned the mistakes of stretching itself too thin. Resources that could be applied to more profitable revenue streams would be diverted to support a market whose main focus is just the price tag. It would make more sense for Apple to either continue futhering iPhone's development or aggressively market/price the Air.

Digital Skunk
Feb 5, 2009, 09:41 PM
Haha, yeah. Still, I have faith that Apple is really just getting started with iPhone's capabilities. It will need to evolve if it wan't to even get a true competitive stance with netbooks.

True, but I actually hope Apple makes more of an effort to make the iPod Touch a PDA, and the iPhone just a phone version of the iPod Touch.

Eric S.
Feb 5, 2009, 09:54 PM
Agreed on that, i just meant your ideas as to why there hasn't been an update yet (too busy with other things) is baseless.

Yeah, I got that the first time.

IJ Reilly
Feb 5, 2009, 11:05 PM
Yeah, I got that the first time.

Makes no difference how many times you hear it, then?

CompactMacUser
Feb 8, 2009, 08:37 AM
For casual browsing and amending documents, net-books are fine (mine is an Aspire One) but trying to sit down and work at the thing for hours is a spine bendingly hard task.

I think that there will always be a place for the full size machine in the consumer market - it's just at the moment some people are having problems obtaining credit and on the other hand some of us don't need credit to purchase items. In the UK at least for every person that takes out credit there are 5 people that spend with savings, and i think it is evident that people will continue to purchase items that they wish to.

mklos
Feb 9, 2009, 07:36 AM
Wow its really that simple. I can get a low end white model without the new trackpad for $1000 or I can get a big heavy 15" for $2000. How about instead of addressing the complaining, we address the excuses to justify Apple's mistakes.

Yeah because everyone buys a MacBook because of the glass trackpad! I'm sure people are just rushing into Apple Stores to get a MacBook because of the trackpad. :rolleyes:

FW isn't necessary for most MacBook users. The MacBook is Apple's best selling computer, most to switchers who couldn't give a rats @ss about FW. I'd rather have 2 USB ports than 1 FW port that will only get used by about 5% of MacBook buyers. The fact is, you can buy a white MacBook if you need FW without sacrificing more important items such as the NVIDIA chipset and graphics. Thats a hell of a lot more important than some stupid touchpad.

In order to get FW into the new MacBooks Apple would have to do some redesigning internally. There simply isn't enough room. I don't get where people are saying well if Apple would just put a $5 part into the MacBook it would sell better. Thats just pure BS! If it was that simple, Apple would have done it. Apple just didn't say we were gonna leave out FW on this new MacBook. There was a reason for it people!

godrifle
Feb 9, 2009, 08:12 AM
In order to get FW into the new MacBooks Apple would have to do some redesigning internally. There simply isn't enough room. I don't get where people are saying well if Apple would just put a $5 part into the MacBook it would sell better. Thats just pure BS! If it was that simple, Apple would have done it. Apple just didn't say we were gonna leave out FW on this new MacBook. There was a reason for it people!

Your claim that there isn't room in the newly redesigned chassis smacks of an apologist approach to Apple. In fact, a firewire chipset is exceptionally small, and the port is as well.

Regarding your assertion that the lack of Firewire affecting sales is BS: My direct experience is that *if* it had Firewire I would have already bought two and would be planning to buy a third. As it sits, I've bought none. That's first hand evidence of a product losing out on sales due to a formerly-available $5 part. That's a pricey omission by Apple, one that equates to approximately $1100 in lost profit from me alone.

If history is any indicator, the port was dumped for aesthetic reasons. Likely Jobs wanted ports only on one side.

mklos
Feb 9, 2009, 08:28 AM
Your claim that there isn't room in the newly redesigned chassis smacks of an apologist approach to Apple. In fact, a firewire chipset is exceptionally small, and the port is as well.

Regarding your assertion that the lack of Firewire affecting sales is BS: My direct experience is that *if* it had Firewire I would have already bought two and would be planning to buy a third. As it sits, I've bought none. That's first hand evidence of a product losing out on sales due to a formerly-available $5 part. That's a pricey omission by Apple, one that equates to approximately $1100 in lost profit from me alone.

If history is any indicator, the port was dumped for aesthetic reasons. Likely Jobs wanted ports only on one side.

You've obviously never seen the insides of an aluminum MacBook....

Just because it doesn't suit your needs, doesn't mean its not suiting the majority of others. Like I said, most sales are to switchers who couldn't care about FW ports. But you just ignored that because it would make your claims BS now didn't you!

There's no way you could put the ports on more than one side. Again, you've obviously never seen the aluminum MacBook internally...

godrifle
Feb 9, 2009, 08:55 AM
You've obviously never seen the insides of an aluminum MacBook....

Wrong. I have, in fact, disassembled one. With even a casual comparison of current versus prior logic boards, it becomes apparent that the ports are more generously spaced in the current unit. Certainly that's not a choice dictated by the new unibody machining technique, as the billet approach is inherently stronger, thus negating the need for wider spacing for structural reasons.

Just because it doesn't suit your needs, doesn't mean its not suiting the majority of others.

I never made that claim, nor profess to give a rats ass about that.

Like I said, most sales are to switchers who couldn't care about FW ports. But you just ignored that because it would make your claims BS now didn't you!

I don't really see how your opinion (which, BTW, is completely lacking any factual basis) negates my statement that Apple has lost out on sales to me. As someone who influences purchasing decisions at my employer, I can tell you that the loss in sales to Apple is far greater were I to include those numbers.

There's no way you could put the ports on more than one side. Again, you've obviously never seen the aluminum MacBook internally...

Repeating yourself doesn't make it true. :rolleyes:

MacRumorUser
Feb 9, 2009, 09:15 AM
http://www.netbookmarket.com.au/image.php?iid=17258

I for one wish Apple did bring out a cheaper iNetBook for around $500.

However I think it would hurt not MacBook sales but MBA sales.

So like many I'll buy a HP2140 mini-note and put OSX on it!!

mklos
Feb 9, 2009, 09:32 AM
Wrong. I have, in fact, disassembled one. With even a casual comparison of current versus prior logic boards, it becomes apparent that the ports are more generously spaced in the current unit. Certainly that's not a choice dictated by the new unibody machining technique, as the billet approach is inherently stronger, thus negating the need for wider spacing for structural reasons.



I never made that claim, nor profess to give a rats ass about that.



I don't really see how your opinion (which, BTW, is completely lacking any factual basis) negates my statement that Apple has lost out on sales to me. As someone who influences purchasing decisions at my employer, I can tell you that the loss in sales to Apple is far greater were I to include those numbers.



Repeating yourself doesn't make it true. :rolleyes:

I'm sure you have disassembled one. Otherwise you'd know your claims are BS.

But whatever...

I'm sure Apple is going down in a ball of fire as we speak...

mklos
Feb 9, 2009, 12:04 PM
http://www.netbookmarket.com.au/image.php?iid=17258

I for one wish Apple did bring out a cheaper iNetBook for around $500.

However I think it would hurt not MacBook sales but MBA sales.

So like many I'll buy a HP2140 mini-note and put OSX on it!!

Sounds like a plan to me...

Sehnsucht
Feb 10, 2009, 08:24 AM
****** the economy, I'm in the market for a 17" MacBook Pro right now. :D

Seriously though, netbooks are retarded. The majority have cheap, crappy build quality, are underpowered, and have the s**tiest screens ever. I saw an ad in some magazine (I think it was either PC World or CPU) for the $399 Acer Aspire One. (gag) The ad shows a close up of a very masculine businessman in a tie and starched shirt. "Want one?" the ad asks. Pfffffffftt!!! :eek:

Death to netbooks!!! :mad:

3lutz3toe
Feb 10, 2009, 09:43 AM
I was considering to get a Netbook but now I realize that they wouldn’t serve my needs.
Mac laptops are just too expensive for what they are. I wish they would come out a more cost effective version around $700 or so.
I hate Windows but wanted a laptop so I ended up getting a PC laptop. (I also have an older white Imac and waiting forever, like everyone else here, for the new update to get a new one!)

gkarris
Feb 10, 2009, 09:52 AM
I for one wish Apple did bring out a cheaper iNetBook for around $500.

However I think it would hurt not MacBook sales but MBA sales.

So like many I'll buy a HP2140 mini-note and put OSX on it!!

Probably why Apple won't release a NetBook...

Sort of like turning the other way when we unlock our phones in the US to use on T-Mobile... :eek:

Chairman Plow
Feb 10, 2009, 12:52 PM
The fact is, the majority don't even know what "firewire" IS, much less care if it's missing on their new Macbook.


However, those of us who use Pro Tools and prefer notebooks took notice right away. Granted, you can use a USB based M-Box, but what about the users (and there are many) with Firewire 002 or 003 racks and consoles?

areyouwishing
Feb 10, 2009, 07:27 PM
I'm intrigued by which machine did you go for (Lenovo X301? That would fit the bill of 13" 1400x900 LED screen, trackpoint and WWAN, but not the hybrid graphics, Firewire or DVI out).

T400

Also — the OS X doesn't need to be restarted to switch graphics, but you are logged out and in again (in order to restart the Window Manager). It's inconvenient, un-Apple like behaviour that hopefully will be fixed.

Exactly, I can change without rebooting

Interesting comments about Windows software, that more does not necessarily equal better.

I've always been intrigued where the quality was (the Panic's and Omni's of the Windows world).
Is there a hidden gold-mine of great Windows apps with the wonderful fit and finish you get on the Mac side just waiting to be found?

I've yet to see a developer that can bring the kind of Omni/Panic fit and finish to the windows world. My point was to try my hand at it.