Save Apple - Sign the Petition

[imac_japan]

Please sign it !! For our sakes

http://www.petitiononline.com/rumi04/petition.html

Thanks

[Laslo Panaflex]

I read your petition, and I didn't sign it. I really don't think that a mac that hooks up to a TV is a good idea, look at webtv, it failed miserably. I agree with you that they need to get it down to 500 - 600 dollar price range, and maybe they will soon since the iPod is bringing in the dough. But really, apple is not going to overtake M$ and x86 computers, not anytime soon at least. Plus apple has always made there money on hardware, they pretty much give there software away, where as M$ makes money on software.

[Doraemon]

I didn't sign either.

a) I don't think that market growth is necessarily good for Apple.

b) We don't need to save Apple. It's not endangered.

c) I wouldn't want a Commodore-type of computer. My TV is smaller than my displays. Besides, a TV cannot handle the high resolutions state-of-the-art video cards deliver.

d) With the eMac, Apple already has a good entry-level computer. What I'd like to see would be a <$1000 head-less iMac. But with the full range of features (so not a Commodore or whatever).

[stoid]

People have been hollering for a cheaper Mac every since there has been Macintosh. You must realize that Apple, unlike most computer companies, is in the business of creating quality products. Were Apple to release a cheap Mac it would shatter Apple's reputation of making slick quality products that are a joy to own. If you want a cheap pile of crap computer that you'll have to throw away in a year, go buy Dell of whatever. That's not Apple's target market.

[imac_japan]

What people don't understand is that Apple is dying....
Everyone is buying IBMs and if Apple doesn't do something then they are dead. I love my Macintoshes but Apple needs market share to grow !

Apple needs customers, Apple needs to start thinking out of their little 5% market share. The Ipod was a good example but you can't keep on counting on people to buy it. For example, Apple had to make Safari due to Microsoft pulling out of the mac - this is just one example where Apple is starting to make software because companies are leaving the platform.

We need a cheap Mac to bring in new Customers. Maybe its their first Mac experience.

[stoid]

Apple has had a small market share ever since Microsoft and IBM dominated the scene back in the early 90s. Apple cannot and should not try to compete on price. Instead, Apple should just continue to offer the superior computer using experience. Eventually, when people get around to buying their 2nd and 3rd computers, they will try to educate themselves and get something more than 'whatever works'. Then, they with find Apple and fall in love. Have you seen the videos about the Apple Retail Store openings? Name ANY other technology company that has support nearly that big from it's fan base. No, Apple is going to be around for awhile.

[wdlove]

Many have called for the demise of Apple, but it is still going strong. Anyone that talks against Apple does it at their peril.

[javabear90]

hmmm...... this is a head scratcher....

[Krizoitz]

Please sign it !! For our sakes

http://www.petitiononline.com/rumi04/petition.html

Thanks

This is what my friends and I refer to as a WOMBAT
Waste of Money, Brains and Time

[yoda13]

I think that what iMac_Japan doesn't get is that more people are coming to Apple rather than moving away from the platform, and yes marketshare could be higher, but even though it is what it is, it is still growing, not in total marketshare, but in total number of users, or so I have read in these forums and in various Mac magazines. Apple is one of very few tech companies that are making money and the established base is growing rather than shrinking, despite marketshare. Apple is going to be allright, I think. But that is just my 2 cents.

[ColoJohnBoy]

How is Apple dying? The iPod is a huge seller, the iTMS is a huge success... the point is, Apple is posting profits, and so long as we, loyal Apple customers, continue to buy the products, SJ and crew will continue to make them.

I personally don't want a cheap Mac. You get what you pay for, and if Apple made a cheap Mac it would likely be crappy. Better than any PC, for sure, but not of the standard Apple is used to.

[Steven1621]

i question the need for this since apple did make quite a bit of money last quarter.

[Horrortaxi]

What people don't understand is that Apple is dying....
Everyone is buying IBMs and if Apple doesn't do something then they are dead. I love my Macintoshes but Apple needs market share to grow !

Apple needs customers, Apple needs to start thinking out of their little 5% market share. The Ipod was a good example but you can't keep on counting on people to buy it. For example, Apple had to make Safari due to Microsoft pulling out of the mac - this is just one example where Apple is starting to make software because companies are leaving the platform.

We need a cheap Mac to bring in new Customers. Maybe its their first Mac experience.

This sounds like a conversation straight out of 1990. Apple vs. IBM--come on!

Apple is not going anywhere anytime soon. Whether their market share is 5%, 2%, or 15% is irrelevant. They make a profit. That will keep them around. Who says you have to oppressively dominate the field to stay in business? Okay, who besides Bill Gates?

You have the software thing backward. Safari and Final Cut Pro existed (and did dominate on the Mac platform) before Microsoft and Adobe pulled the plugs in thier products.

We do not need a cheap Mac. One of the things I love about the Mac is that you don't have the option to buy a piece of crap.

WOMBAT indeed!

[imac_japan]

WOMBAT indeed!

Look, you don't have to call people names....

I just wanted to state that Apple should go on the Attack !! If it's a wombat then you should go and see Apple's situation outside of America.

In Australia (where Im from), the market is dead ! Most Apple Stores are large and if you ive in the Country - they don't exist. The rest of Asia is like that.

In Japan (where I live), alot of people have an Ipod but NOT a Macintosh...

Apple needs to push the market to get more...

[PlaceofDis]

Apple had to make Safari due to Microsoft pulling out of the mac

correct me if i am wrong, but Apple did not have to make Safari, Microsoft halted the production of IE for Mac because Apple started to develop Safari and realized that more Mac users were using it than IE. Apple was not forced by Microsoft to make Safari

& its not like Microsoft has left Apple behind, Office 2004 is comming out sometime this year supposedly, i might start to worry about Apple is M$ starts to ignore Macs altogether....

The End of the Mac is not comming, Apple is finally out of debt, and profits are being made....Apple will be around for a while yet

[Doraemon]

In Australia (where Im from), the market is dead ! Most Apple Stores are large and if you ive in the Country - they don't exist. The rest of Asia is like that.

Like you can expect to have a Mac store in the middle of nowhere. That's BS. It's not profitable to run a Mac store in the (Australian) desert.

And have you ever been to China? You'll find lots of Apple stores there. And if you are in Japan, go to Akihabara, man and take a look around. There are like 14 Mac stores within three blocks.

I am outside the US. And there are iPod ads where ever I go.

And no, Apple is not dying. The markets where Apple is dominant will remain like that, since Apple is "attack[ing]" (to quote you) in the pro music and pro video markets. And in these markets Apple is making lots of money.

[Horrortaxi]

Look, you don't have to call people names....

Whose calling you names? I'm agreeing with Krizoitz, who said that your petition is a Waste of Money, Brains and Time (WOMBAT).

[jxyama]

Apple Computer, Inc.: Proudly dying since 1976. :rolleyes:

if apple really was dying, the last thing it needs to do is to listen to amateur marketing gurus and online petitions.

is the apple marketshare lower than it used to be in the 90s? yes, absolutely. that doesn't mean apple is dying - that it's on the blink of an extinction. a company with nearly $4 billion in cash reserve with no debt will be able to carry on for quite some time... (gee, how long have gateway been dying?)

funny you mention japan. last time i went to tokyo (oct. '03), i was hard pressed to find any store with an electronics/computer department that didn't carry any macs.

[rueyeet]

Does this count for the Apple Death Knell Counter? Maybe if they counted all the signatures someone would finally break Rob Enderle's record.... :rolleyes:

Dell has the market cornered in cheaper computers, so much so that they are the only PC maker still pulling in a profit doing it. Apple can't compete with Dell there, and it would be foolish of them to put even a dollar of their R & D money towards trying.

Not everyone will shell out the money for an Alienware system either, and their marketshare is also a fraction of the overall PC industry, but no one's saying they should sell cheaper computers or die. Get a grip. There's room for the smaller players here.

[leftbanke7]

People have been hollering for a cheaper Mac every since there has been Macintosh. You must realize that Apple, unlike most computer companies, is in the business of creating quality products. Were Apple to release a cheap Mac it would shatter Apple's reputation of making slick quality products that are a joy to own. If you want a cheap pile of crap computer that you'll have to throw away in a year, go buy Dell of whatever. That's not Apple's target market.

I don't necessarity agree with that one. While bargain Wintel PCs can be huge piles of garbage, I think Apple could successfully market a bargain desktop that wouldn't be junk in a year. Most people would agree that an eMac is a quality machine (minus the lack of base RAM issue). You take the low end model, subtract the cost for the monitor and you have a computer that is sitting in the $500.00 - $600.00 range. Many people already have monitors and if not, you can find a decent one for relatively low cost. Apple is very much capable of putting those components in a sleek case, giving it a decent name and perhaps the abilty to be expanable and there you go. The low cost Mac that won't be your foot stool next year.

Would this take some sales from the PowerMacs? Very little if any at all. Most people who buy PowerMacs are people who need the power. I don't think a whole lot of people buy a PowerMac and use it only for word processing, internet/e-mail and iTunes. The people who use Macs for the above reasons are buying the iMacs and eMacs. The "headless iMac/eMac" would just be one more quality option in the lower-end/consumer priced area.

And in my humble opinion, I think a large reason that many bargain PCs only last a year is because Intel has brainwashed society into believing the Megahertz Myth and Bargain PC dealers go along with it as it generates new sales. I don't know how many times I had to explain this to my PC friends who said they'd never own a Mac b/c they were too slow.

[jxyama]

You take the low end model, subtract the cost for the monitor and you have a computer that is sitting in the $500.00 - $600.00 range. Many people already have monitors and if not, you can find a decent one for relatively low cost.

since CRT monitors cost next to nothing these days, eMac price can't be lowered that much even if it was headless. that will just eat into the profits. and why give the money for the monitor to other companies?

apparently, apple's marketing dept. has concluded that the sale of AIO units with bigger margin turns more profit than that can be expected from increased sale of headless units with smaller margin. and as long as apple's profitable, there's no reason to argue that their strategy is wrong...

eMac and iMac are for people who want to take home a box, open it up, plug in the power and start using them. they are NOT meant for people who want the absolute cheapest computers. right now, apple is not interested in making that kind of "cheapest" computers... nor has they ever been. the only time that happened was when they allowed clones and that certainly went nowhere because Macs were suddenly a commodity and apple took a major hit as "premium" hardware company.

mind you, apple could change their mind and offer such a headless machine in the future, if their dept. sees that the computer market is changing. so while you may well be 100% correct in principle, apple hasn't had to or is yet to find a reason to offer such a headless.

[Krizoitz]

Look, you don't have to call people names....

I just wanted to state that Apple should go on the Attack !! If it's a wombat then you should go and see Apple's situation outside of America.

In Australia (where Im from), the market is dead ! Most Apple Stores are large and if you ive in the Country - they don't exist. The rest of Asia is like that.

In Japan (where I live), alot of people have an Ipod but NOT a Macintosh...

Apple needs to push the market to get more...

I'm sorry that you felt insulted by the term, it wasn't meant to refer to you, just the petition idea.

I have read of the problems that Apple Australia is having os you may have a point there, but from all my contacts in Japan Apple seems to be doing spectacularly well there (and always has), the Ginza store opening is a prime-example.

Anyhow what you have to realize is that those of us in the U.S. have had to continously put up with this idea that Apple is dying in the media for a long time now, so we tend to be annoyed easier when things like this happens. At least for us, in Apple's main market it is doing great, so we really see no need to "save" Apple. Maybe a Save Apple Australia petition would help more, it sounds like the pricing is outta control.

[leftbanke7]

there's no reason to argue that their strategy is wrong...

I don't argue that their strategy is wrong. They are a profitable, debt-free company. They obviously have some clue as to what's going on.

However, as a Mac lover on a budget, I hate only having the option of an iMac or an eMac. I dislike both of them. I dislike the design and I dislike that they are essentually unupgradable. If I am going to spend money on a product, I had better like looking at it. I also don't want to have to use a G4 MDD as it's old technology. Granted, it's life is far from over but I get the impression that Apple is telling me that unless I am willing to pony up $2500.00 - $3000.00, that my only options are either old or unupgradable products.

A Bargain PC may be a POS, but for a good group of people, it's all they can afford...and I am almost to that point. My old computer can only take me so much farther.

[jxyama]

Granted, it's life is far from over but I get the impression that Apple is telling me that unless I am willing to pony up $2500.00 - $3000.00, that my only options are either old or unupgradable products.

well, whether you like it or not, that's pretty much exactly what apple is telling you...

apparently, providing upgradable, top of the line (or close to that) products that are very cheap is not something apple is interested in since they believe it will not give them more profit.

i mean, i wish porche boxster was in my price range. i don't like the look of many of the cars i can afford... but such is the reality of life...

so good luck to you and get the kick-butt machines like PM G5 when you make it big!

[led1002]

Granted, it's life is far from over but I get the impression that Apple is telling me that unless I am willing to pony up $2500.00 - $3000.00, that my only options are either old or unupgradable products.

Actually it's $1800-3000, for a G5 64 bit computer. Where do you buy your computers from? No wonder Apple can't dispell the myths even Mac users don't know how much they cost!

[Dont Hurt Me]

I don't argue that their strategy is wrong. They are a profitable, debt-free company. They obviously have some clue as to what's going on.

However, as a Mac lover on a budget, I hate only having the option of an iMac or an eMac. I dislike both of them. I dislike the design and I dislike that they are essentually unupgradable. If I am going to spend money on a product, I had better like looking at it. I also don't want to have to use a G4 MDD as it's old technology. Granted, it's life is far from over but I get the impression that Apple is telling me that unless I am willing to pony up $2500.00 - $3000.00, that my only options are either old or unupgradable products.

A Bargain PC may be a POS, but for a good group of people, it's all they can afford...and I am almost to that point. My old computer can only take me so much farther.this is exactley why marketshare has dwindled for Mac, they tell you its our way ( powermac) or if you dont submit then we will cripple the Hell out of the othermacs and leave you wanting, so the world says screw you Apple and buys a PC with everything they want in it and makes do with a OS that is less then perfect. This is why Apples new computer sales went to 1.7% of all new sales. Apple is a dictator mini monopoly.

[jxyama]

this is exactley why marketshare has dwindled for Mac, they tell you its our way ( powermac) or if you dont submit then we will cripple the Hell out of the othermacs and leave you wanting, so the worlds says screw you Apple and buys a PC with everything they want in it and makes do with a OS that is less then perfect. This is why Apples new computer sales went to 1.7% of all new sales. Apple is a dictator mini monopoly.

i highly doubt that many computer buyers even look at Macs.

i don't think they look at iMacs or eMacs and think that they are crippled compared to PMs and decide to go get dells instead. i simply don't believe that many of them go that far.

most of them "know" computers as running windows and purchased from dell catalog they get with their newspaper each week.

if they know anything about Macs at all, they know Macs as expensive and upon seeing that the base model eMacs cost $800, they go back to ordering $400 dell.

mac's marketshare has dwindled - that's a fact - but i don't think it's because customers think iMacs and eMacs are crippled computers. i think it's because they are simply unaware of Macs or think they are too expensive, period, not in comparison to PMs.

[Dont Hurt Me]

well for just once I would like the fastest single cpu in one of the consumer models and give it a good video card. thats all not asking for the world.

[Foxer]

this is exactley why marketshare has dwindled for Mac, they tell you its our way ( powermac) or if you dont submit then we will cripple the Hell out of the othermacs and leave you wanting, so the worlds says screw you Apple and buys a PC with everything they want in it and makes do with a OS that is less then perfect. This is why Apples new computer sales went to 1.7% of all new sales. Apple is a dictator mini monopoly.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: Apple's biggest problem is that most of those in market aren't even aware of the Mac option, or if they are they suspect that you can't get on the internet, or use Word files, or things like that. I know this, because I was one of them only two years ago. I'm not an idiot, I was just never presented with the Mac option. Had I not wandered into the new Apple Store at the mall while waiting for my wife I may never had.

Thus, most people never get to the point of saying, "These computers aren't expandable." It is hard for people on a Mac web board to understand the average computer user, but I will site my parents. They want internet, they want to mess with music and e-mail, maybe some photo printing. Every Mac on the market can do all of this perfectly, no need to worry about expansion. Apple has to find a way to inform the public - and slipping another PowerBook onto some TV show ain't the answer, I never noticed them until I became a Mac head. I have to sit through a Dell commercial every 10 seconds, why am I not sitting through an Apple commercial - and NOT and iPod commercial. They are advertising the only product that doesn't need additional pub.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Apples commercials have sucked, very rarely do they show what it can do. I have to laugh i was watching the o'reiley factor the other night and all of a sudden they show the Apple ipod commercial with brothers(if you know what i mean) dancing and listening to hip hop. then i asked myself how many conservative Americans are going even pay attention to that geto commercial let alone buy a pod because of that. talk about waste of air time. Like O'reileys viewers play and listens to Rap. Apple is lost when it comes to marketing and building computers for the masses.

[led1002]

i highly doubt that many computer buyers even look at Macs.

most of them "know" computers as running windows and purchased from dell catalog they get with their newspaper each week.



jxyama, I think you have something there... last nite my wife (who is computer ignorant) asks whether I have a MAC or a PC. Turns out her best friend (newbie PC user for about 1 year) has convinced her that MACs aren't as good. My wife or her friend have never even used one but they 'KNOW' they are inferior to MACs. Now if either of them were to have to make a buying decision it's not hard to imagine what they'll walk out the store with.

How could any new user have a different opinion unless they happen to know a MAC user. Only 2% use MACs so they're unlikely to be exposed to one, PC users (98%) will bad mouth a MAC, and Apples advertising, while award winning does very little to enlighten people about the product.

[jxyama]

well for just once I would like the fastest single cpu in one of the consumer models and give it a good video card. thats all not asking for the world.

for "consumer prices"? doubtful, because you are asking for a top-notch gaming machine. it's not a consumer machine at all. so why should it be priced as such?

do you call a PC with PIV EE with a top notch radeon video card "consumer"? is it priced as "consumer" machine?

[gwuMACaddict]

Like O'reileys viewers play and listens to Rap. Apple is lost when it comes to marketing and building computers for the masses.

but they buy it for their kids... c'mon, apple is HARDLY lost when it comes to marketing... many of my PC friends rave about the way apple has marketed the iPod and their iMac... many of them are switchers because the comercials got them interested

[Dont Hurt Me]

for "consumer prices"? doubtful, because you are asking for a top-notch gaming machine. it's not a consumer machine at all. so why should it be priced as such?

do you call a PC with PIV EE with a top notch radeon video card "consumer"? is it priced as "consumer" machine?please dont put words in my mouth, for around $1500 i would like a G5 2.0 and a ati 9600xp or better. for $1700 give me a 9800. and for gwumacaddict what about country music? I dont listen to it but millions do and is very big. is a rap commercial going to get those folks? I think not.

[jxyama]

jxyama, I think you have something there... last nite my wife (who is computer ignorant) asks whether I have a MAC or a PC. Turns out her best friend (newbie PC user for about 1 year) has convinced her that MACs aren't as good. My wife or her friend have never even used one but they 'KNOW' they are inferior to MACs. Now if either of them were to have to make a buying decision it's not hard to imagine what they'll walk out the store with.

How could any new user have a different opinion unless they happen to know a MAC user. Only 2% use MACs so they're unlikely to be exposed to one, PC users (98%) will bad mouth a MAC, and Apples advertising, while award winning does very little to enlighten people about the product.

i agree with you.

the problem with the current computer market is that it's dominated by two kind of uses, neither of which apple excels at: enterprise and gaming.

for enterprise users, innovation and usability (beyond certain degree) are secondary. what they need is computers to get the job done for as cheap as possible - because computer is purely a commodity tool. as far as corporations are concerned, there is no reason to step away from windows because it has been getting the job done and it is the cheapest options available. now, this is changing slightly recently because of the onslaught of malicious windows virus. some corporations are starting to realize that the cost of hiring windows admin and lost productivity due to these virus are starting to make windows more expensive. because they have absolutely no brand attachment, corporations that deem Macs to be more cost effective overall than windows PCs will have absolutely no problem switching. (however, they will have no problem pursuing other options if something better than Macs come out too.)

because many people work for corporations, them and their families will be most familiar with windows PCs. Macs are seen as some abnormality, and expensive. ("there's only so much a computer can do and windows does it fine, so why bother paying more for Macs?")

what they fail to see (IMO) is that Macs can do a lot more, far more easily. but it will take time for those people to be convinced that computers can really do more than what they've seen windows PCs do and it really is worth more $$$.

gaming - this is tough for apple. in this segment, user base is everything. because it's so technologically driven, R&D money is much better spent on improving the technology rather than adapting them to work on Macs...

[jxyama]

please dont put words in my mouth, for around $1500 i would like a G5 2.0 and a ati 9600xp or better. for $1700 give me a 9800.

sorry, no offense meant.

i think for your needs, it would be really nice if apple could somehow establish a small, niche (but still profittable) section of product lineup for people who are knowledgeable and willing to put together their own custom macs...

[Dont Hurt Me]

I agree with your enterprise and gaming post. Apple is missing that market jxyama. consumer machines are simply poor gaming machines yet on the otherside gaming has been driving the market and that is why everyone is coming out with gaming machines. even Dell and gateway are getting into the act but those are the ugliest things I have ever seen. to many years on a mac i guess. Alienware's Aurora is a very interesting machine to say the least.
ipod has gone after those young people and apple needs a machine that can go after those same ones. It will be interesting to see what apple does the next few months with Imac/Emac. these machines should be their sales leaders but are not. what will it take? simple updates or all new platform? they should take a close look at Imac crt and whatever it was that made it a big seller.( color & performance & utility)
1 more thought, I know we have the G4 lover crowd here but i cant think of a better reason why MDD powermacs,Imac LCD or Emac were not the big success apple hoped for. It boils around this old non advancing cpu in my H.O. sooner or later you have to move up and on and apple just didnt want to let go of this chip in desk tops. It really should have put fourth the effort to replace G4 a lot sooner.

[Counterfit]

Only 2% use MACs so they're unlikely to be exposed to one, PC users (98%) will bad mouth a MAC, and Apples advertising, while award winning does very little to enlighten people about the product. two notes: 1.) MAC is a networking thing, among others. Mac is a computer or a nickname.
2.) market share is not the same as installed user base.

[thejazzman10]

im not really a big fan of that kind of TV-box stuff, seems kinda pointless :rolleyes:

[imac_japan]

Thanks for all the comments....

I just want to add that Apple would sell more computers if one was cheaper.....

Say if one (without a monitor) - You can plug into a TV, Was like I said $500 to $600, I would buy 2. One for me and one for my (future) kids..

People (even in Japan) say Macs are too expensive ! Ive been to Akihabara in Tokyo and Den den Town in Osaka ! Ive lived in Japan for 5 years. Yes, the Ipod has been popular in Japan BUT a hell of alot more people buy IBMs here eg: Toshiba, Hitachi and Sony.

An example is....My GF (Japanese) is a university student (she studies Computer science). Her University uses The LCD Imacs and IBMs. Her fellow classmates like them but say that they are too expensive - PLUS this is important !! Everyone else has an IBM so why buy a Mac...

[Horrortaxi]

a hell of alot more people buy IBMs here eg: Toshiba, Hitachi and Sony.

I don't want to sound excessively picky, but only IBM makes IBM computers. Toshiba makes Toshiba computers and Sony makes Sony computers.

[Zaty]

If you want to compare Macs to PCs, you just can't take any PC being sold for $500. Like other people said, you get what you pay for. On the other hand, not every PC is a piece of crap (hardware wise). I bought a top of the line PII 450MHz in late 1998. It cost almost $2000 back then. But guess what, it's still running happily. The question is how long is the computer going to last? The more you pay, the longer your computer (Mac or PC) normally lasts. The good thing about Apple is that there is no $500 crap.

[jxyama]

I just want to add that Apple would sell more computers if one was cheaper.....

yes, this is true. but apple is not in the business to sell more computers. apple is in the business to turn profits.

tiffany's would sell more diamond rings if they cut the price in half.
BMW would sell more cars if they cut the price by 30%.

...but so what?

[Krizoitz]

People (even in Japan) say Macs are too expensive ! Ive been to Akihabara in Tokyo and Den den Town in Osaka ! Ive lived in Japan for 5 years. Yes, the Ipod has been popular in Japan BUT a hell of alot more people buy IBMs here eg: Toshiba, Hitachi and Sony.

The difference is that Toshiba, Hitachi and Sony are all Japanese companies. They don't have to pay the import taxes, and Japanese industries are a lot more protected in terms of foreign competition than American companies are because the govt is allowed alot more connection to them. Thats just the way it is.

Its similar to Europe and Airbus, because Airbus is a european company the gov'ts over there give them support and tax breaks and such. Boeing can't get that same kind of subsidization because of U.S. laws and policies. I think unfair trade laws are one of the US's biggest problems. But thats a topic for another forum.

The point is made in Japan (or atleast a company from Japan) will have cheaper products that an American based company.

[craigdawg]

yes, this is true. but apple is not in the business to sell more computers. apple is in the business to turn profits.

tiffany's would sell more diamond rings if they cut the price in half.
BMW would sell more cars if they cut the price by 30%.

...but so what?

Exactly. Apple will stay in business as long as it's profitable; it's that simple.

It doesn't bother me that Apple has low single-digit marketshare and it doesn't necessarily bother Apple as long as they continue to make money.

And I don't know if a $500 - $600 loss leader Mac would guarantee an increase in desktop marketshare. (This is different to me than the loss leader that ITMS is). The only effect it would have would be to decrease profits.

[iJon]

apple doesnt aim their market at people who shop for those computers, simple as that.

iJon

[Dont Hurt Me]

apple doesnt aim their market at people who shop for those computers, simple as that.

iJonand since Apple is missing the market so bad its sales have sunk to the lowest % in its history. there will come a point that it wont matter how much money is in their bank because no one will be buying the stuff. Look at iJon even he uses a PC for gaming. most people dont have a pc and a Mac so what do they buy? a PC.

[Indiana Mac]

First is advertising. Sure Apple's commericals are cute and award winning. But for once can we show some hard hitting ads that are shown more than just occasionally? Apple needs to advertise, and more than just the chic oh, that was nice. What I want to see is ads showing how much easier it is to use a mac than a pc, or how less venerable macs are to virus and hacking, then show the things for goodness sakes!!

Second is quality control.

Considering the recent problems with the ibook's logic board (over a years worth of laptops sold before admitting a problem?), problems with the 15in powerbook (wait almost a year for memory problems and white spots?) problems with the 12in powerbook(warping cases), and the old windtunnels, I'd say that Apple's quality control is slipping. Are they crap, no, but for the premium that we all pay they deserve to be better.

I do not mind a 500 dollar computer dying on me, but a 1700 laptop less than a year old? Yes I most certainly do. Having to pay $300 dollars to cover it? yes i do. Knowing a guy who sent in a 15in Albook three times for the screen? yes I do. A friend who owns a 12in whose case is warping, yes i do.

Price is not as much of an issue. Many of the people who buy 500 dollar computers would not take the time to learn about why a mac is better, they are too dollar concious(the Wal-Mart mentality, if its cheaper its better.)

Do I think Apple is dying, no. But we have an opportunity to regain market share if apple plays hardball.

[Dont Hurt Me]

First is advertising. Sure Apple's commericals are cute and award winning. But for once can we show some hard hitting ads that are shown more than just occasionally? Apple needs to advertise, and more than just the chic oh, that was nice. What I want to see is ads showing how much easier it is to use a mac than a pc, or how less venerable macs are to virus and hacking, then show the things for goodness sakes!!

Second is quality control.

Considering the recent problems with the ibook's logic board (over a years worth of laptops sold before admitting a problem?), problems with the 15in powerbook (wait almost a year for memory problems and white spots?) problems with the 12in powerbook(warping cases), and the old windtunnels, I'd say that Apple's quality control is slipping. Are they crap, no, but for the premium that we all pay they deserve to be better.

I do not mind a 500 dollar computer dying on me, but a 1700 laptop less than a year old? Yes I most certainly do. Having to pay $300 dollars to cover it? yes i do. Knowing a guy who sent in a 15in Albook three times for the screen? yes I do. A friend who owns a 12in whose case is warping, yes i do.

Price is not as much of an issue. Many of the people who buy 500 dollar computers would not take the time to learn about why a mac is better, they are too dollar concious(the Wal-Mart mentality, if its cheaper its better.)

Do I think Apple is dying, no. But we have an opportunity to regain market share if apple plays hardball.Jobs has stated hes not interested in the market, Apple has money in the bank. Apple has many problems but the biggest is Jobs and his denial. he thinks we dont want games, or TV, and we like being charged double what the otherside sells hardware wise. since he has taken over Apple they have put money in the bank but they have lost every year more and more of the buying public? they are doing something wrong. yeah we have ill die holding onto my old stale G4 crowd but there are plenty who will never even hear of a G4. they thought you said P4. how small will the Mac Market have to get before Apple wakes up? 1.7% last qtr is going to sound good when they release next qtrs numbers. go ahead and quote me on this if you want.

[Krizoitz]

and since Apple is missing the market so bad its sales have sunk to the lowest % in its history. there will come a point that it wont matter how much money is in their bank because no one will be buying the stuff. Look at iJon even he uses a PC for gaming. most people dont have a pc and a Mac so what do they buy? a PC.

It doesn't matter if they sell to a market where the won't be able to make money and will likely lose money. Apple isn't a commodity PC dealer like Dell, they dont' sell in quantity, they sellin quality. As for gaming, sorry gamers make up a small percentage of the market, and since most games are PC first/PC only it doesn't make sense for them to buy a Mac anyway. Is it getting better? Yes and maybe that will change someday, but that doesn't mean squat right now. I think Apple is doing a fine job. What frustrates me is no matter how good they do for some people its never enough, they seem to want Apple to sell a 9Ghz Quad proccesor G6 with a terabyte of ram and a 200 petabyte harddrive with dual 30" plasma screens for $299. Give me a break.

[appleboy]

Apple actually did have a plan to enter the low end market but jobs scrapped it. They were going to make a deal with ibm a make atx form factor motherboard with no expansion slots and a soldered in g3 cpu that could support ps2 keyboards and mice. The idea was to sell it with osx 10.2 no ilife or apple works for 100 bucks so people could build there own low end mac compatible computer and when they upgraded to 10.3 and bought ilife apple would make a great deal of profit on them. Jobs decided if they did this it would cheapen the apple name and hurt the companies image.

[imac_japan]

The point is made in Japan (or atleast a company from Japan) will have cheaper products that an American based company.

Thats not the least bit true ! and if you lived in Japan - you would understand. I don't mean to be rude at all. Dell for example has desktops for under 100 000 yen (about $1 200 US)....

eg:Australian Meat for example is cheaper than Japanese Meat....

Most foreign products are cheaper or about the same price as the Japanese product

[imac_japan]

Please sign it !! For our sakes

http://www.petitiononline.com/rumi04/petition.html

Thanks

[appleboy]

Thats not the least bit true ! and if you lived in Japan - you would understand. I don't mean to be rude at all. Dell for example has desktops for under 100 000 yen (about $1 200 US)....

eg:Australian Meat for example is cheaper than Japanese Meat....

Most foreign products are cheaper or about the same price as the Japanese product
1200 for a dell they sell for 499 here with a monitor hey are still **** computers though

[leftbanke7]

Actually it's $1800-3000, for a G5 64 bit computer. Where do you buy your computers from? No wonder Apple can't dispell the myths even Mac users don't know how much they cost!

Well, unless you have some implant in your head to attach the computer to, you'll need a monitor as well smart guy *wink*

[jxyama]

sorry to say, bud, but it won't matter much even if 100,000 signs an online petition...

apple is one of the healthier computer hardware companies out there and probably needs no "saving"...

and people aren't signing it for a reason... perhaps they don't agree with the petition to begin with?

[Fukui]

What people don't understand is that Apple is dying....
Everyone is buying IBMs and if Apple doesn't do something then they are dead.

Not exactly. Everyone's buying DELLs.

And, For What its worth, apples market share may be lower over time, but thier installed/customer base IS increasing. Just not at the same growth level as the Big Players. The only thing that prevents apples larger growth is largely microsoft.

When customers cant access the website they want, take classes to learn MS office only on PC's because the mac version is different, cant use all the same peripherals as windows users (not as bad as it used to be for sure) etc, apple will grow slower than the bigger PC companies.

How come Acer isnt dying with its meager 3 percent market share?
Lower prices don't seem to help them that much...
Its much more than price that determines market share, things like advertising...which is what apple is actually doing for the iPod.

[Fukui]

Thats not the least bit true ! and if you lived in Japan - you would understand. I don't mean to be rude at all. Dell for example has desktops for under 100 000 yen (about $1 200 US)....

Yea, actually they have even cheaper ones, and dells are starting to take over business buying in Japan, just like america will inflate thier numbers.
BTW, companies like sony/apple will probably never get as large share as dell becuase businesses just want cheap boxes, but Japanese PEOPLE I would say buy higher quality computers (mac or pc) than busineses do. If you research consumer market share apple is pretty healthy, just like sony, though they (apple) may actually make a profit on them.

[imac_japan]

But Apple's market is shrinking.....
Acer and Sony and Toshiba, etc, etc are all part of a larger market - The IBM one. Apple is the only player in the Apple league.

Apple needs to get the mums and dads, the people who have never touched a mac or a computer.

The Switch campaign failed because they focused on the wrong people. Just like in the early 80's - Steve and Co thought that IBM was the devil, but we all know who really was the devil.

They need to focus on the every day person who cares about email, web surfing and word processing. A cheap machine would do the job.

[m4rc]

But Apple's market is shrinking.....

What you are possibly forgetting is that although, yes, Apple's market share may be shrinking, the market it self - the number of units actualy shifted - is growing at massive rates. I don't really have to explain percentages now do I, it is obvious that 1.7% or whatever it is of 10,000,000 (a figure pulled from the air, I have NO idea how many units are shifted :)) is a much higher number than say 5% of 1,000,000. Apple is shifting more units - may not be computers, iPods are obviously helping Apple to succeed, and do remember that some of these iPod users are going to like the thing so much that they start taking a healthy interest in the rest of Apple's product range.

Apple may be many things, but the way they have turned there fortunes around, going from the brink to billions in the bank and zero debt, shows the one thing they are not is stupid. They realise what the market is doing, and are releasing the products that make the most profit. It is all about profit, as in pretty much any bussiness. I started my business doing I.T Support, Servicing, Installations etc. I found a market niche where I could make some serious profit, and have completely remodelled the company to that, even though what we as a company always wanted to do was I.T Services. You have to go where the money is. And I obviouslly don't know the numbers, but I would bet that the profit does not come with shifting units that make you a few dollars just to increase your market share a little.

I like the references people have made to other iconic brands - BMW, Ferrari, Tiffany's, there are many. These companies could all increase their market share massively by selling cheaper stripped down products, and to some extent BMW is doing just this, but to go for a car that aims at the bottom end of the market, that would hurt BMW too much. More likely, they would aquire a low end car manufacturer and improve the organisation, a little like VAG and Seat and Skoda - may not have all of those brands in the states though.

I would like to see Apple increasing it's market share too, but not at any cost. It would be very easy to just chuck out a budget box and lose money on it, what would thay gain? Lower profits possibley, and an increased market share, but to what end? Some companies have a lovely large market share, and are teetering on the edge as they are just not profitable. Apple know's it's business, and it will do whatever it has to do to succeed and profit. I do agree however, that they have current issues over product quality and service support, but again, these will be sorted over time.

Marc

[Fukui]

Some companies have a lovely large market share, and are teetering on the edge as they are just not profitable.

Marc
Amazon.com anyone?

[blackjesusninja]

Actually it's $1800-3000, for a G5 64 bit computer. Where do you buy your computers from? No wonder Apple can't dispell the myths even Mac users don't know how much they cost!

In addition to that, the education price is $1599 and if you remove the superdrive and 56k modem it's down to $1399.

[7on]

In addition to that, the education price is $1599 and if you remove the superdrive and 56k modem it's down to $1399.

Crap, thats less than HALF that my 1Ghz TiBook costed, fully loaded of course.

But you can get cheap G4s.
G4 (http://www.powermax.com/cgi-global/generate_css_temp.cgi?p=c-u55002)
Even cheaper if you buy from ebay.
http://www.powermax.com/cgi-global/generate_css_temp.cgi?p=c-u55002
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2795923528&category=14912

[flyfish29]

market share market schmare! I think apple is doing great. The kind of person that would buy a 5-6 hundred dollar mac would not buy many or any additional programs as they would probably just surf the net, take dig. pics, etc. and watch them on their tv...if that much. That is not going to bring us any new or additional software. They would not use Palms so Palm would not all of the sudden make their software again. It would cost Apple money to develop the machine, support it, and update it not to mention marketing, etc. Apple resellers would have to buy them and use up precious inventory money on those rather than things they would be making money off of.

I think Apple needs to promote their best thing: software! They are a software company that also happens to make some great hardware, but they have almost always focused on hardware. G5, iMac, iPod, Powerbook, etc. were all supported heavily in print and other media. what about OSX??? iLife gets some support in print...iTunes is the only real app. that gets much support in marketing and look where Apple is with it! Making huge bucks! If they want people to switch in numbers they need to show the software working and what you can do with it. The switch campaign did this some, but people foucsed on the people and their little jokes and quirks and not the software. Apple needs to shed their image of "only for artists and students/teachers" and not for business, not for internet, not compatible with such and such, etc. These are all parts of their image that people still believe and they need to change their image. Not everone sees different as better. I don't think it should be Apple's job to make everyone see that different is better...just make them see that Apple's product is better!

[ingenious]

...For example, Apple had to make Safari due to Microsoft pulling out of the mac - this is just one example where Apple is starting to make software because companies are leaving the platform...

its my understanding that apple made this browser BEFORE MSIE was pulled from the mac. M$ pulled IE because they believed Safari was better and faster and could better serve the mac. it was also part of a marketing plan by M$ to remove IE as a stand alone browser from Win and Mac. Think before you post and do your homework. The rest of use don't want to read something that's not true or thot out.

[flyfish29]

its my understanding that apple made this browser BEFORE MSIE was pulled from the mac. M$ pulled IE because they believed Safari was better and faster and could better serve the mac. it was also part of a marketing plan by M$ to remove IE as a stand alone browser from Win and Mac. Think before you post and do your homework. The rest of use don't want to read something that's not true or thot out.

Yes, Apple made this browser before M$ IE was pulled, but it was obvious that M$ would be pulling it long before they announced it. With the integratioin of IE into windows it was only a matter of time and if Apple had waited until the announcement they would have been so far behind that the mainstream would have suffered. Safari is just now getting up to speed on its accessability to most web pages- and I even still have major accessability problems with some financial pages and registering at some other types of pages. Most people don't know about the alternative browsers out there such as Mozilla, etc. so it would have proved devestating to Apple had they not been on the ball with Safari. They just know netscape, IE and now safari. I think iMac-Japan's comment on this particular issue is partly true as is your Calebj14.

[Fukui]

Yes, Apple made this browser before M$ IE was pulled, but it was obvious that M$ would be pulling it long before they announced it. With the integratioin of IE into windows it was only a matter of time and if Apple had waited until the announcement they would have been so far behind that the mainstream would have suffered. Safari is just now getting up to speed on its accessability to most web pages- and I even still have major accessability problems with some financial pages and registering at some other types of pages. Most people don't know about the alternative browsers out there such as Mozilla, etc. so it would have proved devestating to Apple had they not been on the ball with Safari. They just know netscape, IE and now safari. I think iMac-Japan's comment on this particular issue is partly true as is your Calebj14.

I don't think MS dropping IE was because of Apple's market share.
Its more to do with longhorn and the mixing of web api's and desktop api's
(.NET) so that there is no distinction between an application that runs on the web (IE) or run from your desktop, thats why its canceled further development for Windows XP and lower.

In longhorn, the Api's that you use for displaying web pages (java say goodbye) are the same ones that are bolted ONLY TO LONGHORN. To continue MSIE development on mac wouldn't work because then mac has all the same Api's as Longhorn, and MS wouldn't want that...besides, MSIE was more of a gesture than anything else, since it never supported activeX wich was the only real major reason for needing IE6...

[imac_japan]

its my understanding that apple made this browser BEFORE MSIE was pulled from the mac. M$ pulled IE because they believed Safari was better and faster and could better serve the mac. it was also part of a marketing plan by M$ to remove IE as a stand alone browser from Win and Mac. Think before you post and do your homework. The rest of use don't want to read something that's not true or thot out.

Sorry but I disagree - what you say here is just something you made up !!!! Safari is a good browser and Apple only made it cause MS pulled IE. Think about it. Apple may have money but it needs to do something else to kick start growth....The Ipod doesn't have long to go...Itunes will still do well but it doesn't give Apple enough money !

Don't forget - please sign the petition.....

[flyfish29]

I don't think MS dropping IE was because of Apple's market share.MSIE was more of a gesture than anything else, since it never supported activeX wich was the only real major reason for needing IE6...

I don't think I ever said it had anything to do with market share. I also believe that MSIE was all about getting M$ software on the mac which in their minds would make it easier to get other proprietary software on the mac ie. Windows Media Player which integrated better with IE than Netscape at the time. NOt to mention that they wanted to get rid of Netscape to (in their minds) have a heavy hand in internet development which they did.

[windowsblowsass]

Sorry but I disagree - what you say here is just something you made up !!!! Safari is a good browser and Apple only made it cause MS pulled IE. Think about it. Apple may have money but it needs to do something else to kick start growth....The Ipod doesn't have long to go...Itunes will still do well but it doesn't give Apple enough money !

Don't forget - please sign the petition.....
reasons your wrong
1. he didnt make up a word of it
2. apple made safari before ms pulled ie
3.the ipod has a long time to go their not going to just say screw it when its selling
4.ITMS is making them money after the record companies are paid back for the use of the songs every cent is profit
5. less than 20 people have signed your petition and do you really think its going to get apple to change their entire strategyi can see it now steve jobs sees our online pettion and immediatly calls a meating "i just had an appihany some kid said to make a cheap computer that hooks up to your tv weve been completely wrong all theese yearsapple is now only going to make web tv type systems and nothing else my god what have i been doing"

[ingenious]

reasons your wrong
1. he didnt make up a word of it
2. apple made safari before ms pulled ie
3.the ipod has a long time to go their not going to just say screw it when its selling
4.ITMS is making them money after the record companies are paid back for the use of the songs every cent is profit
5. less than 20 people have signed your petition and do you really think its going to get apple to change their entire strategyi can see it now steve jobs sees our online pettion and immediatly calls a meating "i just had an appihany some kid said to make a cheap computer that hooks up to your tv weve been completely wrong all theese yearsapple is now only going to make web tv type systems and nothing else my god what have i been doing"


for once someone agrees with me ;)

[imac_japan]

reasons your wrong
1. he didnt make up a word of it
2. apple made safari before ms pulled ie
3.the ipod has a long time to go their not going to just say screw it when its selling
4.ITMS is making them money after the record companies are paid back for the use of the songs every cent is profit
5. less than 20 people have signed your petition and do you really think its going to get apple to change their entire strategyi can see it now steve jobs sees our online pettion and immediatly calls a meating "i just had an appihany some kid said to make a cheap computer that hooks up to your tv weve been completely wrong all theese yearsapple is now only going to make web tv type systems and nothing else my god what have i been doing"

I'm not getting into a "your right and Im wrong" discussion. The whole point of this thread is to get Apple to make a cheap Mac so they can tackle the cheap $500 market. Its killing them

[Doraemon]

Its killing them

Geez. How many more people do you need to see that you're wrong. :rolleyes:

[m4rc]

Maybe he will go away and stop making up senseless rubbish if we just agree with him? Yes, Apple is dieing. Maybe a month, maybe a few weeks, but not long now. Such a shame. Gonna miss them. All because they didn't make a $500 computer, which cost more than that to make and market properly. They really should have listened to Imac_Japan you know, he saw it coming. Just think, if they hadn't been wasting their energy on that stupid iPod.......

Has he gone yet?

[ingenious]

Apple does not need to enter the 500 dollar market- Steve Jobs has said it himself. He himself has compared Apple to BMW among others to show that Apple is the luxury company right now. They're not going to waste quality for quanity and just try to sell machines. Read it in an interview from him. The point is, Apple IS NOT DYING! It's a debt free company, has billions in cash, is leading the MP3 Player and Online Music store industry, has what was and is still almost the worlds fastest personal computer. It has the best OS, and more and more people are switching, its just that there are more people going to PCs than macs (new users). APPLE IS NOT DYING! STEVE IS BACK. :D :D :D :D

[imac_japan]

They could do alot more.......That's all I'm going to say cause Im going to work...

Please sign the petition

P.S The point i'm trying to make is that Apple will always be a small company who thinks they affect the PC industry. The same thing happens every time, Apple makes something cool - The PC world makes the profit

[topicolo]

They could do alot more.......That's all I'm going to say cause Im going to work...

Please sign the petition

P.S The point i'm trying to make is that Apple will always be a small company who thinks they affect the PC industry. The same thing happens every time, Apple makes something cool - The PC world makes the profit

My advice to you is to let this petition die. It's obvious that the most of the people don't agree with your ideas on the petition. How do you expect to convince apple if you have to convince people to sign your petition? You're interest in the well-being of apple is commendable, but this petition isn't going to work.

[ltgator333]

wow... this lack of faith in Apple is suprising really. This company has been sitting about where it's at right now for the last 10 years or so, and all the sudden they're just gonna die? I think the reasons why this will not happen have been beaten to death, so I spair you repeating them.
The whole thing with Adobe/M$ pulling products is ridiculous as well. This has happened a million times, Apple makes an app and a third party realizes they can't compete with this new app and either lowers the amount of effort they put into their app or just pull the plug on it. Anyone remember MacAmp? Toast? The examples are readily available.
As for cheap Macs, hell yeah I'd like to see some. The whole reason you see a PC listed under the computers I personally own is because it was cheaper for me to build my own dual proc PC workstation that buy a Mac- other than a non-upgradeable computer that also to me isn't all that good looking, the iMac or eMac. The problem is Apple's business model works, and even though Apple makes computers, being they are a business, making money is still the #1 thing, if they're making $ there's no reason to change anything real drasticly.

I would like to see Apple come out with a headless desktop, but not have it be a direct replacement for iMac or eMac, an interim of upgradeability between the PMac line (which as for how desktop machines go, this thing is very upgrade freindly on a whole, the PMac G4's especially) and the iMac with virtually none. A machine that has a AGP slot, processor can be removed/upgraded, one HD and one optical drive bay and maybe 1 or 2 PCI-X slots would be a perfect fit upgradeability wise between they're high and low end. I beleive that if they were to do this I would price it similarly to the iMac, basicly a trade-off monitor for upgrades.. put the right spin on it and I think there's a market for a machine like this.

[Fukui]

I would like to see Apple come out with a headless desktop, but not have it be a direct replacement for iMac or eMac, an interim of upgradeability between the PMac line (which as for how desktop machines go, this thing is very upgrade freindly on a whole, the PMac G4's especially) and the iMac with virtually none. A machine that has a AGP slot, processor can be removed/upgraded, one HD and one optical drive bay and maybe 1 or 2 PCI-X slots would be a perfect fit upgradeability wise between they're high and low end. I beleive that if they were to do this I would price it similarly to the iMac, basicly a trade-off monitor for upgrades.. put the right spin on it and I think there's a market for a machine like this.

I have to say this, more upgradability would definitely be needed more than lowering prices (a student can get an eMac for 699). If the eMac was easily able to change CPU/GFX Card HD and CD drive, I would even consider buying one. The thing is, apple would have a good chance to make lots of money on after-market upgrades that they are missing.

[imac_japan]

I have to say this, more upgradability would definitely be needed more than lowering prices (a student can get an eMac for 699). If the eMac was easily able to change CPU/GFX Card HD and CD drive, I would even consider buying one. The thing is, apple would have a good chance to make lots of money on after-market upgrades that they are missing.

How about three options....
1) I was thinking of a cut down emac style for the 1st time, Dad and Mums, Student, Low income buyers. (eg: basic cut down version)
2) An expandable machine based on the above design (eg: middle of the road - same chip as 3 but much lower specs)
3) Macs for the professionals...and 2nd or 3rd time computer buyers (eg: high spec/price - Higher spec chip than 2)

[Benjamin]

Please sign it !! For our sakes

http://www.petitiononline.com/rumi04/petition.html

Thanks

you know that marketshare doesn't matter right? it is just a ratio what matters is that apples stock is climbing to almost 30 and is gaining profit to be yet again a 10 billion dollar company.. however.. if you read this thread, yeah apple is so dying :cough:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=65964

;) :rolleyes: ;) :rolleyes: ;) :cool:

[jxyama]

How about three options....
1) I was thinking of a cut down emac style for the 1st time, Dad and Mums, Student, Low income buyers. (eg: basic cut down version)
2) An expandable machine based on the above design (eg: middle of the road - same chip as 3 but much lower specs)
3) Macs for the professionals...and 2nd or 3rd time computer buyers (eg: high spec/price - Higher spec chip than 2)

problem is, what do you cut down in #1 and still make profit? it's clear that dirt cheap computer market is something apple's not interested in. they believe it makes no economic sense. apple is not a charity organization, it is NOT on some mission to spread the goodness of Mac OS... if they don't see an economic merit in offering dirt cheap Macs, they won't, just like any other businesses.

eMac is not meant to be cheap. iMac is not meant to be cheap. they are meant to be all-in-one. if you know enough to foresee that you may need to upgrade in the future, you get a PowerMac because all-in-one is not for you. if you want a cheap, upgradable machine, then, unfortunately, you are not within apple's target market. thus far, apple has been doing well with this philosophy and who's to tell them to change? (do note that "customers" wanting dirt cheap machines have far less economic leverage because, well, they are cheap. if $800 is too much for a complete computer/OS/bundled software, then nevermind what dell's offering, apple believes they are ok without catering to you. if $400 is your budget, then apple believes it won't matter to you whether you get a dell or a Mac. if you want a Mac for sure, apple is betting that you will put down $400 more and get an eMac.)

even if apple offered custom upgrade parts (and only apple parts will work with Macs - otherwise, people will just go out and buy stock parts), i doubt they will be well received - they will be "overpriced" afterall, just like their computers are "overpriced" especially according to these "cheap" customers.

[imac_japan]

problem is, what do you cut down in #1 and still make profit? it's clear that dirt cheap computer market is something apple's not interested in. they believe it makes no economic sense. apple is not a charity organization, it is NOT on some mission to spread the goodness of Mac OS... if they don't see an economic merit in offering dirt cheap Macs, they won't, just like any other businesses.

eMac is not meant to be cheap. iMac is not meant to be cheap. they are meant to be all-in-one. if you know enough to foresee that you may need to upgrade in the future, you get a PowerMac because all-in-one is not for you. if you want a cheap, upgradable machine, then, unfortunately, you are not within apple's target market. thus far, apple has been doing well with this philosophy and who's to tell them to change? (do note that "customers" wanting dirt cheap machines have far less economic leverage because, well, they are cheap. if $800 is too much for a complete computer/OS/bundled software, then nevermind what dell's offering, apple believes they are ok without catering to you. if $400 is your budget, then apple believes it won't matter to you whether you get a dell or a Mac. if you want a Mac for sure, apple is betting that you will put down $400 more and get an eMac.)

even if apple offered custom upgrade parts (and only apple parts will work with Macs - otherwise, people will just go out and buy stock parts), i doubt they will be well received - they will be "overpriced" afterall, just like their computers are "overpriced" especially according to these "cheap" customers.

You have some good points here....but the basic arguement is how to survive in the future - How to grow the business....Itms doesn't make any money for Apple, the ipod is going to have too many similar players. So why not go for the lower end of the market - eg: like they did with the old "LC"s machines. People buy software but they don't want to shell out alot of money for hardware.

[da_sebsta]

While i dont agree with imac_Japan that apple needs saving there needs to be changes in its attitude with markets other then US especially in Australia by apple.I live in Aus It is no wonder that apple is struggling in here, other then the ipod there sales arent ne thing to write home about and the main reason this is because of the inflated price of there products over the price in US. When people see other computers in shops for the quater of the price with marketing to make it look faster and better no wander peple arnt buying macs here.

[Doraemon]

Itms doesn't make any money for Apple, [...]

What are you talking about? iTMS not generating profit? Geez, check your facts!

So why not go for the lower end of the market - eg: like they did with the old "LC"s machines. People buy software but they don't want to shell out alot of money for hardware.

Yeah, right. A $2500 "low-cost" computer. :rolleyes:
Again, check the facts.

[jemeinc]

[QUOTE=Doraemon]What are you talking about? iTMS not generating profit? Geez, check your facts!

Actually, while I couldn't disagree with iMac-Japan more, I have heard the itms doesn't actually make a profit on it's own... It's real purpose is to sell iPods, & break even on the sales of songs, or so I'm told...


As far as his plan to "save Apple", well simply put, I'm not signing that petition... You can pick up an eMac for $699.00 new right now... Yes, it's the previous generation, but I gurantee it's a better system than the $500 Dell.. There has to be a floor somewhere, especially for Apple, who doesn't attempt to attract the low, low end user... Sooner or later you end up cheapening your product in the publics eyes & that's a dangerous way to do business..

[jxyama]

You have some good points here....but the basic arguement is how to survive in the future - How to grow the business....Itms doesn't make any money for Apple, the ipod is going to have too many similar players. So why not go for the lower end of the market - eg: like they did with the old "LC"s machines. People buy software but they don't want to shell out alot of money for hardware.

no worry, people's been saying that apple's been dying since like 10 years ago. and increasing the marketshare doesn't mean it's growing and not increasing the marketshare doesn't mean its future is doomed.

look at gateway. it just acquired eMachines and "doubled" its marketshare to 7%. apple is half that. and guess which company has been more profitable recently? which company is debt free? (hint: it's not gateway) and which company had to expand beyond just selling cheap PCs to continue its operation? (another hint: it's not apple.)

i see absolutely no economic reason why apple should bother selling cheap macs.

people who know what they want will pay for Macs. if they don't know what they want, they won't care if they got a Mac.

[timmyOtool]

I think the cut throat P.C. market will implode on it's self sometime in the future and Apple should stay out of that market. With that said I do hope that Apple can improve the consumer line up. $800 for an emac would be good if it had better specs. All the ilife apps should run well on all macs period. A better adveritising stratigy wouldn't hurt either. Let people know about osx, after all that is their best product imho. Apple is not going to die, but there is always room for improvement.

[Xapplimatic]

I have to agree with all the other posters who say Apple doesn't need saving. It was saved the moment Steve stepped back in the door. It's profits haven't been higher in years and its market direction never more positive. Apple's market share is increasing again and profits are up 33% year over year... so what exactly is in need of saving?

Go save Gateway.. they're the ones closing stores instead of opening them... lol

[musicpyrite]

Never!!! Fight the Man!!!
Long live Apple and its 5% market share.

[cjc343]

Save Apple!!! Sign MY petition.....



http://www.petitiononline.com/savapple/petition.html

[imac_japan]

and guess which company has been more profitable recently? which company is debt free? (hint: it's not gateway) and which company had to expand beyond just selling cheap PCs to continue its operation? (another hint: it's not apple.)

Now that has to be the most double standard quote that I have ever read !!!

Apple had to expand beyond its computers to be profitable....If not for the Ipod - Apple wouldnt be making money.

Steve get Apple into gear man ! Drop prices - Take on the market...With good marketing , Apple will not cheapen..

[LethalWolfe]

What are you talking about? iTMS not generating profit? Geez, check your facts!



You are the one in need of fact checking. Jobs has said in a number of interviews that iTMS will generate enough money to basically break even. iTMS is there to sell iPods, not to make a profit.


Lethal

[ingenious]

Now that has to be the most double standard quote that I have ever read !!!

Apple had to expand beyond its computers to be profitable....If not for the Ipod - Apple wouldnt be making money.

Steve get Apple into gear man ! Drop prices - Take on the market...With good marketing , Apple will not cheapen..

excuse me, but WHAT WORLD DO YOU LIVE IN? JK! seriously tho, you should just do one of two things:
1)give up cuz ur obviously wrong and not gaining much support!
2)move to mars and live in your own little dream world where apple is dying.

apple did not have to create the ipod to stay profitable. they are debt free and have 5b in the bank. computers are making more the double what the ipod's making. c'mon man, do ur research! some mod should just delete this thread. it's pointless!

[IndyGopher]

Please sign it !! For our sakes

http://www.petitiononline.com/rumi04/petition.html

Thanks
Next Commodore 64? You know Commodore started selling computers after Apple, sold fewer computers than Apple, and is gone, right? Why the Hell do you want Apple to be anything like Commodore?

[imac_japan]

Next Commodore 64? You know Commodore started selling computers after Apple, sold fewer computers than Apple, and is gone, right? Why the Hell do you want Apple to be anything like Commodore?

Because the Commodore 64 sold better than anything Apple has built and it was cheap !! It was a computer for the masses....

Thats what Apple needs.....All this Apple makes the best computers etc etc debate is pointless...

They may be making money but the mac is not spreading...the ipod is ! Apple needs to push both lines

[jxyama]

actually, nevermind. i don't care anymore. you are clearly not reading what i've been posting anyway.

[imac_japan]

actually, nevermind. i don't care anymore. you are clearly not reading what i've been posting anyway.

Thats not true ! Ive been reading everyone's posts but you just don't want to see both sides of the story. I just want Apple to do better...

Look at this business weekly online story about Apple - very interesting

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2004/tc2004047_5468_tc056.htm

really, this is what Ive been taking about...I think that most Mac users don't want to hear it

and this one too

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_news.cfm?NewsID=8372

[nuclearwinter]

not gonna do it...

[cjc343]

So long as Apple is around, I do not care if they are growing or not, nor do I want the Apple brand to become associated with ****. People already think Macs are inferior to windows... some guy IM'd me earlier today and the discussion turned to computers... I told him I use an Apple Macintosh, his first response is:

ROFLMAO!!! MACS SUK!!!

disclaimer: I do not actually know this person, somehow they found my AIM SN and IM'd me....

I told him/her a few reasons why macs are better, but he/she wasn't even listening..... I don't want Apple to give basis to his/her argument by making a regular POC like dell, eMachines, or gateway does.....

[ingenious]

Thats not true ! Ive been reading everyone's posts but you just don't want to see both sides of the story. I just want Apple to do better...

Look at this business weekly online story about Apple - very interesting

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2004/tc2004047_5468_tc056.htm

really, this is what Ive been taking about...I think that most Mac users don't want to hear it

and this one too

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_news.cfm?NewsID=8372


ok, YOU listen to "our side" of the story now!!!!! The point is, apple is NOT dying, they do not need saving, blah blah blah. just read the 100 posts above mine explaining this to you, but you refusing to listen. If you want apple to do better, then think that and leave the rest of us alone. I myself wouldn't mind having more of my contacts using a mac so i wouldn't have to do tech support for them all the time, but then again, that would cut down on people who force money on me for it..... :D

[ingenious]

really, this is what Ive been taking about...I think that most Mac users don't want to hear it

maybe thats because its not true and most mac articles are written by very wintel biased writers.

[imac_japan]

maybe thats because its not true and most mac articles are written by very wintel biased writers.

Well....then Is this the Mac-files ?
Is there a conspiracy ???

[KingSleaze]

For example, Apple had to make Safari due to Microsoft pulling out of the mac.
And there I thought that Microshaft stopped development of Internet Exploder for the Mac because Apple released Safari. Which happened first?

[ingenious]

And there I thought that Microshaft stopped development of Internet Exploder for the Mac because Apple released Safari. Which happened first?

read above- apple released safari first (altho imac_japan will deny that. he denies anything anyone writes except himself). M$ thot that safari was too good for them to be able to compete, so they withdrew. this was plan that was already in motion to remove all stand alone versions of IE (win/mac).

Well....then Is this the Mac-files ?
Is there a conspiracy ???

no, but its true! ask most ppl here and they will tell you that. these were also both UK sites, and ive found that (no offense) UK sites dont usually provide an unbiased opinion about apple. IMHO, i think its cuz they're upset that the iPod mini and iTMS haven't been released there yet. :D

[ingenious]

did anyone noticce that imac_japan didnt respond to my comment about how HE should listen to the "other" side of the story? LOL somebody's a sore loser. no offense, but its a little obvious. i may get flamed for this, so i apologize in advance! :D

[Horrortaxi]

did anyone noticce that imac_japan didnt respond to my comment about how HE should listen to the "other" side of the story?
I think he did. He said something like "okay, I've read the other side. Now can we go back to talking about my half baked misguided ideas?"

[ingenious]

I think he did. He said something like "okay, I've read the other side. Now can we go back to talking about my half baked misguided ideas?"

ya i know but i was talking about when i put:



Thats not true ! Ive been reading everyone's posts but you just don't want to see both sides of the story. I just want Apple to do better...

Look at this business weekly online story about Apple - very interesting

http://www.businessweek.com/technol..._5468_tc056.htm

really, this is what Ive been taking about...I think that most Mac users don't want to hear it

and this one too

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main...cfm?NewsID=8372




ok, YOU listen to "our side" of the story now!!!!! The point is, apple is NOT dying, they do not need saving, blah blah blah. just read the 100 posts above mine explaining this to you, but you refusing to listen. If you want apple to do better, then think that and leave the rest of us alone. I myself wouldn't mind having more of my contacts using a mac so i wouldn't have to do tech support for them all the time, but then again, that would cut down on people who force money on me for it.

[Horrortaxi]

ya i know but i was talking about when i put:

It's just time for us to be mature adults and walk away from this. We know this guy is an ignoramus. We know Apple doesn't need saving. We know that as far as corporations go Apple couldn't be much healthier. We know what Apple's target market is, and that a cheap computer won't accomplish anything. Most importantly, we know we won't change iMacjapan's mind. He's stubborn and he's not listening. Why risk carpal tunnel on it? How about those NHL playoffs? I predict San Jose will take the Blues in 6 games.

[Dont Hurt Me]

when marketshare is almost 0 % you are close to dying, look a 1 % of all new machines built is not giving me any confidence in the platform. sure we have 10 % in a installed platform but are loosing everywhere( thank you motorola for holding up the ass end. Fact is Pcs are running away from Mac and when a 500 dollar machine kicks a new $2000 Imac its time to say so long to Jobs and his croonies. Supported you guys way to long at my expense.

[adamjay]

Fact is Pcs are running away from Mac and when a 500 dollar machine kicks a new $2000 Imac .

yea show me a PC Box with a 17" to 20" LCD, and comparable spec's as the imac that costs $500 total? and don't even spit some BS about framerates in Halo.

you have to be smart to be a smart-ass.

[liketom]

I think that apple is doing ok , think i read it in another thread "Apple is the Porsche and Dell is the Ford of computers " i dont know about the rest of you but i like to have something that most people do not have or afford for that matter , call me snobby but i'd rather have something that works time and time again then to bimber around trying to get that dam Graphics card to work with XP.

If apple go main market stream then i think we would be in trouble then ! Cheap Hardware = Problems

tom


Have a Look at my NEW apple AD View new apple ad (http://www.liketom.co.uk/iwantthatpowermac.mov)

[imac_japan]

We know this guy is an ignoramus. We know Apple doesn't need saving. We know that as far as corporations go Apple couldn't be much healthier. We know what Apple's target market is, and that a cheap computer won't accomplish anything. Most importantly, we know we won't change iMacjapan's mind. He's stubborn and he's not listening.

Hey, thank you for being an idiot !! I wasn't replying because I went on Holidays. I went to see Tokyo for Five days and track down the old places of Edo described in Ernest Satow's 1921 book "A diplomat in Japan" and to buy a new Emac !! Its 115 000 yen in Japan for a Superdrive model. Oh, I forgot...For you being a high school graduate - Edo (or Yedo in some translations) is the old name of Tokyo. Up until the Meiji restoration.

If I was stupid - I wouldn't speak two languages
If I was an ignorant person - I would have stayed in my home country and not learn about the ways of the world...I believe that you have spent too much time in front of you mac.
If I was a vain pretender to knowledge - Do you know who Ernest Satow was ? Do you know over 2,000 Japanese kanji characters ? Do you know how to live in another country ? You have NO IDEA

So please don't call other people names - This is a thread for discussion not a primary school (If you are American - a primary school is a elementary school) :D

[Giaguara]

What people don't understand is that Apple is dying....

Yes, I don't really understand WHY according to ... you ?? apple would be dieing.

If you want a Mac that costs 500 $, buy a second had iMac / eMac.

I have NEVER seen a petition that has anything to do with computer or software industry, that I could believe would make _really_ any difference. All the petitions I've seen seem rant - like. If you have an idea, just present it in a more constructive manner, bring / ship it to Cupertino.

Besides - I find it really weird that you don't have more than 500 $ to spend for a computer ... when you are living in Japan. Quit drinking gallons of milk a day there, and you can get a computer in a week. ;)

[Giaguara]

If I was stupid - I wouldn't speak two languages
If I was an ignorant person - I would have stayed in my home country and not learn about the ways of the world...I believe that you have spent too much time in front of you mac.
If I was a vain pretender to knowledge - Do you know who Ernest Satow was ? Do you know over 2,000 Japanese kanji characters ? Do you know how to live in another country ? You have NO IDEA

Gee... Should we be impressed?
Are you telling perhaps that the fact you [say you] speak 2 languages makes it = you can not be stupid in anything, AND the fact that you live in Japan = you can not be ignorant?

I can think of many ignorant people who speak 2 or 3 times as many languages as you, and who have lived in more than 2 countries.

[ingenious]

Gee... Should we be impressed?
Are you telling perhaps that the fact you [say you] speak 2 languages makes it = you can not be stupid in anything, AND the fact that you live in Japan = you can not be ignorant?

I can think of many ignorant people who speak 2 or 3 times as many languages as you, and who have lived in more than 2 countries.

i like the part where he thot that just cuz he went/lives/lived in japan he's smarter than other people.... o and then the crack about americans not knowing what a primary school was! hey, i went to Primary school! and i live in the US!! LOL ;)

So please don't call other people names - This is a thread for discussion not a primary school (If you are American - a primary school is a elementary school)

04-10-2004 03:45 AM

i personally think you (imac_japan) are the most ignorant person ive met. sorry, but you are not better than us because you know all that japanese stuff. Since Im American, i guess i can say that since you know japanese, u just had a lot of time on your hands.. Seriously Im JK i wouldnt do that to someone just because they're from a diff country... (even tho u just did that to all americans! :D)

[ingenious]

It's just time for us to be mature adults and walk away from this. We know this guy is an ignoramus. We know Apple doesn't need saving. We know that as far as corporations go Apple couldn't be much healthier. We know what Apple's target market is, and that a cheap computer won't accomplish anything. Most importantly, we know we won't change iMacjapan's mind. He's stubborn and he's not listening. Why risk carpal tunnel on it? How about those NHL playoffs? I predict San Jose will take the Blues in 6 games.

i agree....

[Giaguara]

i like the part where he thot that just cuz he went/lives/lived in japan he's smarter than other people.... o and then the crack about americans not knowing what a primary school was! hey, i went to Primary school! and i live in the US!! LOL ;)

I was wondering why didn't add also that he can't be a luser as he has a Japanese girl friend. ... you know, any American / just any Western guy is always seen as Very Hot in Asia, when there are girls who can see it as an opportunity to get abroad and avoid marrying a Japanese guy .. at least the guys I know who've been [working] in Japan tell that there are a lot of lus.. amh, I mean of course three are not ..

[jxyama]

Hey, thank you for being an idiot !! I wasn't replying because I went on Holidays. I went to see Tokyo for Five days and track down the old places of Edo described in Ernest Satow's 1921 book "A diplomat in Japan" and to buy a new Emac !! Its 115 000 yen in Japan for a Superdrive model. Oh, I forgot...For you being a high school graduate - Edo (or Yedo in some translations) is the old name of Tokyo. Up until the Meiji restoration.

If I was stupid - I wouldn't speak two languages
If I was an ignorant person - I would have stayed in my home country and not learn about the ways of the world...I believe that you have spent too much time in front of you mac.
If I was a vain pretender to knowledge - Do you know who Ernest Satow was ? Do you know over 2,000 Japanese kanji characters ? Do you know how to live in another country ? You have NO IDEA

So please don't call other people names - This is a thread for discussion not a primary school (If you are American - a primary school is a elementary school) :D

i'm sorry, this has got to be one of the most irrelevant comments i've read here at MR.

(btw, not to brag or anything, but i'll one up you: i speak japanese and english, both fluently. i've lived (not just traveled) in japan, USA and switzerland. i also have a phd in physics. what does all that have to do with having a constructive discussion? NOTHING.)

[Horrortaxi]

Yes, Will Hunting, you might be smarter than me, but who cares? Are you smarter for knowing who Ernest Satow was? If you don't know who Lubomir Visnovsky is (without Googling) does that make you stupid? None of it matters.
Nobody said that you're stupid or a vain pretender of knowledge. At least nobody posted it. You do seem really defensive though. I only said you had some issues with ignorance, and I still stand by that. It worries me a little that you have to boast and convince us how cool you are. Or is it even us that you're trying to convince?

[aethier]

What you are possibly forgetting is that although, yes, Apple's market share may be shrinking, the market it self - the number of units actualy shifted - is growing at massive rates. I don't really have to explain percentages now do I, it is obvious that 1.7% or whatever it is of 10,000,000 (a figure pulled from the air, I have NO idea how many units are shifted :)) is a much higher number than say 5% of 1,000,000. Apple is shifting more units - may not be computers, iPods are obviously helping Apple to succeed, and do remember that some of these iPod users are going to like the thing so much that they start taking a healthy interest in the rest of Apple's product range.



yes, iPod out sold CPU's this quarter... But they still don't make as much money, as they are cheaper. the 807 thousand ipods sold this quarter count for only 15% of Apple's profit, whereas the 779000 (around that) (up 5% from this quarter last year) count for more then 45% of thier profit..

aethier

[imac_japan]

yes, iPod out sold CPU's this quarter... But they still don't make as much money, as they are cheaper. the 807 thousand ipods sold this quarter count for only 15% of Apple's profit, whereas the 779000 (around that) (up 5% from this quarter last year) count for more then 45% of thier profit

45% of their profit ! Its alittle dangerous for Apple to be relying on the Ipod to push sales. Why not sell Macs with ipods ??? eg: Buy an Emac and get an 10gb Ipod for $100 or Buy a G5 Powermac and get a 10gb Ipod for $50 !

That would drive sales up and up.

[h'biki]

For example, Apple had to make Safari due to Microsoft pulling out of the mac - this is just one example where Apple is starting to make software because companies are leaving the platform.
.

One of the *few* examples of companies pulling out. Premiere was another high profile example. But over the last 3 years has seen companies companies porting their Windows/Linux/Unix software to OS X as well as a flood of original development -- which to me indicate that the platform is healthy.

(Examples include Maya, the return of MatLab to the platform, Absofts C++ Complier, Combustion, Shake [when it was with Nothing Real]... as well as original progs like iView, Proteus, SpamSieve etc]

[h'biki]

If I was a vain pretender to knowledge - Do you know who Ernest Satow was ? Do you know over 2,000 Japanese kanji characters ? Do you know how to live in another country ? You have NO IDEA


"He thinks he knows everything when he knows nothing -- he must be a politican."

(You get points for knowing where the quote is from, but not IQ points. There's a reason most intelligence tests avoid basing their questions on knowledge.)

[h'biki]

when marketshare is almost 0 % you are close to dying, look a 1 % of all new machines built is not giving me any confidence in the platform. sure we have 10 % in a installed platform but are loosing everywhere( thank you motorola for holding up the ass end. Fact is Pcs are running away from Mac and when a 500 dollar machine kicks a new $2000 Imac its time to say so long to Jobs and his croonies. Supported you guys way to long at my expense.

Layman's version:

When you CEASE TO MAKE A PROFIT then you are dying*. Until then, it doesn't matter what your market share is.

If 1% of the world's population gave me a dollar, I'd be very rich. If 50% of the world's population gave you 1 cent, you'd also be rich, but not as rich as me... even though you have a greater market share. Its all about margins!

For those who are actually interested in understanding the world of business:

*Well, possibly dying... You have to continue to lose money and do it over a period of time before you are dying. Even then, that may be a result of mismanagement, rather than the company itself being dead -- there may still be the potential for money to be made. Really, the only time a company is dead is when its bankrupt and/or when its taken over and its assets stripped (because its been mis-valued).

To give two recent examples. Gateway has been losing money for some time. It has gone from a all time high in 1997 of $61 per share to its current price of around $6 (which it has been at for over the last year). In other words, its been devalued by a magnitude of 10. (They may have refinanced during that time and devalued the price per share, while increasing their overall market value... but I can't remember them doing that. Gateway may have greater marker share, but Apple is valued at around $28 per share. Just to make the comparison properly fair, Gateway has a market value of $1,999 Million, while Apple's market value is around $10,000 million. In other words, Apple is worth ten times as much as Gateway, despite their smaller market share. (Admittely, Apple's share price flucates like crazy, but thats arguably a result of the FUD of uninformed gits, like those at C|Net). Nonetheless, Gateway is likely to be around for some time. Until it continues to burn through money and its share price drops even lower, and it becomes the target of a hostile takeover... which will result in (1) a merger/total buyout/absortion; (2) a massive corporate governance change because the hostile company thinks there's money to be made; and (3) its bought out, its assets stripped and resold.

Example 2 is Media 100. They were also burning through money. Unlike Gateway, however, they weren't generating much gross revenue. Their technology was good, but not that good, and their management was baaad. They weren't generating much gross revenue, which is why no one was really interested in buying them or giving them a loan. They just didn't seem capable of even making a profit (and thats what matters). They were a dying company (unlike Gateway, which is just troubled). So they were forced to file for bankruptcy. Now their assets are being bought by Optibase -- when that deal is complete, they will be dead.

Point is, corporate finance is a very convuluted world. They're like stars. The bigger they are, the longer it usually takes them to die. Sometimes there are corporate "supernovas" (like Enron or HIH or OneTel) in which the whole corporate structure implodes, but thats because of criminal negligence, lack of transparency, and dodgy account practices. (All of which render the mechanisms of the market for corporate control to be rather useless. Noone wants to touch a company when you don't want to know what you're buying).

The most important thing to the world of corporate finance -- the one in which a company lives or dies -- is profit per share, then revenue. Both of which Apple has. Thus it is healthy. Oh, and its debt free. This is a good thing, because it signals to potentially future creditors that it pays off it loans... thus they're likely to bail it out, if it finds itself in trouble again. (Of course, there are mitigating factors there, but thats true of anything).

The only reason that Apple's market share is an issue is because uninformed gits in the IT press (tautology that) scream about it being an issue. This creates information asynchronicity (imnsho) and distorts the market (both the share market and the IT market). Personally I reckon that if people didn't think market share was an issue, Apple would actually be increasing its marketshare. Of course, thats exactly the reason companies like C|NET do scream about it, so it becomes a quasi self-fulfililng prophercy.

Here endeth the lesson on "Introduction to Corporate Financing 101"

[m4rc]

Firstly, can't believe this is still ongoing!

This is an interesting point of view (http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_news.cfm?NewsID=8320) on the whole topic.

I always compare Apple to BMW. Maybe we should all start a petition for BMW as surely it too is dieing? After all, I can buy a ford for £6000, but not a BMW - I mean, what's going on there, they don't want to make crap cars or what?

Marc

[imac_japan]

Very interesting point but I want Apple's share to grow ! The whole point of this thread is to get Apple into every home - right now, its being done by the Ipod but sales can't continue this good forever so they must push the Macintosh into more homes and business.

[Danrose1977]

If it's a wombat then you should go and see Apple's situation outside of America.

You shouldn't generalise... Apple is doing pretty well in Europe. Admittedly there are some things I would love to see change, but I don't care if other people’s purchase of MP3 players is funding the development of my favourite computers.

I would certainly agree that developing a set top box computer is a waste of time. Xbox and Playstation both considered introducing full browsing capability with their modems, but found that people want to use a computer to access the web and their TV to watch TV. Resolutions would be pretty low thus necessitating changes to the OS used... the whole thing is a wombat as said before.

[jxyama]

Very interesting point but I want Apple's share to grow ! The whole point of this thread is to get Apple into every home - right now, its being done by the Ipod but sales can't continue this good forever so they must push the Macintosh into more homes and business.

if you want apple in every home, why don't you buy Macs and give them away? (sarcasm)

the whole point of this thread is NOT to get apple into every home. you started the thread claiming apple is in need of help. apple does not need help, as others have posted many, many times.

apple will not try to put Macs in every home at the expense of its business. yeah, it makes great products. but it's not a charity - they are not going to start modifying their core business model just so everyone can have their product. get over it. Mac is not meant for everyone.

lexus is nice. bmw is nice. are you going to petition that they should offer lower priced version of their cars so everyone could have one? a three story house with huge lawn and furnished basement is nice. are you going to petition morgage companies so that everyone could have a multi-million dollar morgages to get those houses and wreck their business because 99% of them will default?

[imac_japan]

apple will not try to put Macs in every home at the expense of its business. yeah, it makes great products. but it's not a charity - they are not going to start modifying their core business model just so everyone can have their product. get over it. Mac is not meant for everyone

WRONG !! The Mac was meant for everyone !!
Thats the kind of bull people expect from a mac user.....jxyama, its people like you who need a reality check.

How can you expect people to switch when you meet people like you ???

GEEZ -

[Horrortaxi]

WRONG !! The Mac was meant for everyone !!
Look at the pricing of Apple produts and tell me they're for everyone. Apple didn't make a mistake and dial the wrong price into their price gun, they did it on purpose. The $400 eMachine PC--THAT is meant for everyone.

Read Apple's own statement and tell me where it says their computers are for everyone:

Here's to the crazy ones.... The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently.... You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them, disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them. About the only thing you can't do is ignore them. Because they change things.
***
Maybe they have to be crazy. How else can you stare at an empty canvas and see a work of art? Or sit in silence and hear a song that's never been written? Or gaze at a red planet and see a laboratory on wheels?
***
We make tools for these kinds of people. While some see them as the crazy ones, we see genius.
***
Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do.

[Counterfit]

Read Apple's own statement and tell me where it says their computers are for everyone: *cough*Macintosh, the computer for the rest of us :D

[imac_japan]

*cough*Macintosh, the computer for the rest of us :D

Well, for the people who cant buy a BMW anyway

[hulugu]

Hey, thank you for being an idiot !! I wasn't replying because I went on Holidays. I went to see Tokyo for Five days and track down the old places of Edo described in Ernest Satow's 1921 book "A diplomat in Japan" and to buy a new Emac !! Its 115 000 yen in Japan for a Superdrive model. Oh, I forgot...For you being a high school graduate - Edo (or Yedo in some translations) is the old name of Tokyo. Up until the Meiji restoration.

If I was stupid - I wouldn't speak two languages
If I was an ignorant person - I would have stayed in my home country and not learn about the ways of the world...I believe that you have spent too much time in front of you mac.
If I was a vain pretender to knowledge - Do you know who Ernest Satow was ? Do you know over 2,000 Japanese kanji characters ? Do you know how to live in another country ? You have NO IDEA

So please don't call other people names - This is a thread for discussion not a primary school (If you are American - a primary school is a elementary school) :D

Wow, I was scouring this thread to see where it had started, and I just noticed this post. Bad day?

By the way, you should read your post again, you manage to be pedantic and mistaken at the same time: your grammar is a shambles, you mention immediately that you went to Tokyo and then you call it Edo and then mention something about—and this I'm gleaning the meaning—needing to be a high school graduate to know that Edo was the name of Tokyo up until the Meiji Restoration. Um kay. Then something about 2,000 kanji characters. That's very impressive and you should be proud of your accomplishment in learning Japanese I understand it is very difficult. However, I would like to point out that many many Japanese also know kanji characters and it is disctinctly possible that some, maybe more than a few know more than 2,000 characters and speak English and are living in the United States or in Europe.
I would also like to point out that I think you're wrong in your general opinion in this thread and that I speak only two languages (unfortunately not Japanese) although I can read Latin and I too have been in another country besides the United States.
Knowledge is a sword, it cuts both ways.

Oh and by the way, congrats on knowing who Ernest Satow is. Who is Alfred Thayer Mahan? Or N. Scott Momaday? Or Saigo Takamori for that matter?

[Mokona]

Geez... You guys talk about intelligence...

I actually feel more stupid after reading this thread.
Real knowledge is knowing you know nothing. How are we to say "apple thinks this" and "apple should do that"?

Being the crass business student I am, I say, let Steve do what he wants. Should Apple die, let it. Multimillion dollar corporations come and go, and if it goes it will be replaced by something different (probably with as many fundamentalists following it as apple has). This entire thread is just unnecessary. (and so's the petition, sorry.)

[Horrortaxi]

you manage to be pedantic and mistaken at the same time
He's perfect for politics. Narrow-minded, wrong, and insistent--sounds like a politician to me. Maybe we should lay off him before we end up on some kind of government blacklist.

[encro]

I can't be the only one that is sick to death with regards to car analogies. Grrr

[imac_japan]

latin is dead ! Long live Apple

[hulugu]

latin is dead ! Long live Apple

Deader than the hobnails on a centurian's boot, but actually much of English grammar is derived, sometimes mistakely, from Latin forms so it's not a complete waste of time.

Okay maybe it it, but now I know what ergo sum propter means and that quid pro quo is actually gibberish.

[Counterfit]

Deader than the hobnails on a centurian's boot, but actually much of English grammar is derived, sometimes mistakely, from Latin forms so it's not a complete waste of time.

Okay maybe it it, but now I know what ergo sum propter means and that quid pro quo is actually gibberish. I must have missed something. What does latin have to do with "Saving" Apple? :confused:

[Horrortaxi]

I must have missed something. What does latin have to do with "Saving" Apple? :confused:
Nothing at all. He was showing us how smart he is. I tremble before his ostentatious display of knowledge. He is truly my superior. He doesn't need a point--that's how cool he is.

[themadchemist]

It seems like a couple of males trying to strut their feathers to impress mates...But I don't see any mates. I'm confused.

Let's get back on topic, if there still is a topic. As for me, I think Apple could make some changes but that it is in much better shape than it was, say, eight years ago.

[imac_japan]

As for me, I think Apple could make some changes but that it is in much better shape than it was, say, eight years ago.

I agree !! but they need to do more than provide quick cool products...The ipod and the itunes music store isn't going to last because there are going to be others. They need to push a product (ie: cheap mac) into the home ! People will buy it

[imac_japan]

I told you all !!!! $499 headless Mac - here it comes and marketshare will grow...welcome back Apple !!

http://www.petitiononline.com/rumi04/petition.html

[Mechcozmo]

I told you all !!!! $499 headless Mac - here it comes and marketshare will grow...welcome back Apple !!

Sigh... Apple is already back.... and we don't need this petition any longer... and the mini mac has been in development for a long time (1 year plus) so the petition didn't do anything with it.

39 signers in this period of time means it failed, BTW. :rolleyes:

[QCassidy352]

bah, way out of date comment, didn't realize how old this thread is. mod delete please. :o

[easymac800g4]

macworld said apple and dell are the only two computer companies that continue to turn a constant profit

[angelneo]

It seems like a couple of males trying to strut their feathers to impress mates...But I don't see any mates. I'm confused.

This had me burst out laughing at your implication of that statement...

[polsons]

As a fellow Australian imac_japan i'll support your enthusiasm, but as one who is old enough to have actually witnessed the history of Apple I think you are about to be enormously disappointed

If indeed a headless Mac does materialize, it will not be the first to have come from Apple. Apple have tried this concept many times before and all attempts have failed miserably. Maybe a dual G5 Cube for the price of an eMac might have some success, but a miserably under specified G4 (as is being claimed) is DEAD even before it hits the stores.

True the end may be near for Apple's hardware (5 or 10 years so to speak), but MacOS will be around for as long as computers continue to be manufactured. Even the most pessimistic analyst will concede that MacOS X and Apple's apps on x86 would see Microsoft as the world's second largest software developer. And who really cares about the hardware. The best PC hardware is every bit as good as Apple's hardware....it's just that the software stinks.

Let's be honest here. Do we really want Mac OS X to become MS Windows? Yes, Windows has thousands of apps not available on Mac, but most are developed by egotistical script kiddies with absolutely no idea of what they are doing, and then trying to pass it off as the greatest app ever written solely because they coded it. The best Windows apps always have been and probably always will be available on Mac. But they are long established mature apps developed by long established developers. If you can't afford them, then buy a PC and be content with using script kiddie crap.

And therein lies the unique and most appealing aspect of Apple hardware. MORONS can't afford it. As long as Apple keeps developing MacOS X and morons are forced to buy Windows PC's, I'll remain very happy with the current situation as it stands. No $499 headless Mac and no Mac in every home for me thank you. As far as I am concerned, the last thing I want to see is a user base swarming with dickheads. Windows has already reached that plateau, and sadly Linux is running not that far behind.