IBM POWER Event - March 31, 2004

[MacRumors]

Internet News (http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3327091) reports that IBM will be holding a special event dedicated to the POWER microprocessor architecture:

Taking a page from Apple's playbook, IBM sent out invitations that read that the event would be "a unique look at the microprocessor that is revolutionizing computing and emerging as a new platform for innovation around the globe."

According to an IBM spokesperson "there will be a slew of news announcement surrounding POWER architecture".

The POWER architecture is the basis for the PowerPC 970 that powers the PowerMac G5.

[morkintosh]

The POWER architecture is the basis for the PowerPC 970 that powers the PowerMac G5.

... and the powerbook?

[AmigoMac]

... and the powerbook?

1st Tuesday of april... :cool:

[dho]

Hopefully they may hint at some ppc 980 procesors soon. 980 being thee successor to ppc 970 if my math is correct :)

[suzerain]

Probably an in-depth presentation of the new POWER5. You know what that means....980s in a year or so...

[Wonder Boy]

nice. even if things are updated, im still going to wait for 3ghz during the summer, but any updates would be awesome.


MY 400th POST!

[Naimfan]

Knowing something about IBM, I would suggest they will give a fairly clear roadmap, specifying what they plan to achieve with the 970 and the 980. Given the "slew of announcements" expected, the roadmap will most likely cover a wide variety of uses for the Power chips, not just Apple.

And IBM would not announce a major event to announce a disappointment, so I'd say this is potentially very good news. I'll be interested to see how IBM presents it--the event could mark a "shot across the bow" to Intel, HP, and AMD.

Best,

Bob

[CmdrLaForge]

nice. even if things are updated, im still going to wait for 3ghz during the summer, but any updates would be awesome.


MY 400th POST!

AVATAR HERE I COME!

Well - you need 500 :o

Ok, I can't see how this news has any importance !? I read through the article and Apple isn't even mentioned or am I blind ?

We will see what is actually announced.

[eric67]

It actually might be the reason of the delayed PMG5 revision, if IBM is announcing the PPC975, based on Power5, according to some rumors, Apple have already received them for test few weeks ago, and the main yield was running at 2.8GHz!!! with some toping at 3.4GHz!!!
so let see,
if Apple does not announce anything new after IBM special event, then Apple has a serious problem, and we should not expect any revision soon

[agreenster]

Does anyone think this will be a venue to reveal the updated G5s, or is the 23rd still the expected date? Or will Apple wait until after this event, ie: April?

Regardless, this is something to pay attention to because as IBM reveals a roadmap, it indirectly reveals Apple's.

Boy if that isnt stating the obvious! :rolleyes:

[DrGruv1]

Hence The Heat Issues????

Here's to hoping..

[Wonder Boy]

Well - you need 500 :o

Ok, I can't see how this news has any importance !? I read through the article and Apple isn't even mentioned or am I blind ?

We will see what is actually announced.

i know, i meant that im on my way

[eric67]

Hence The Heat Issues????

Here's to hoping..

if any new processor it will be the PPC975, then will come the PPC976 based on Power5 too, but the dual core version, and then only the PPC980 which should be based on Power6

[greenstork]

"a slew of news"

Nice play on words!

[otter-boy]

It looks like it will be a presentation over actual POWER processors (Power4, Power5, etc.), not the PowerPC which the Mac runs on. This is more interesting considering the long-term prospects of IBM chips than the immediate prospects for Apple.

[wizard]

Well I'm thinking there is some sort of tye in here between the two companies. The big question is wether or not there is a replacement in the wings for the 970 which is sorely needed. I could see the PMG5 being delayed for this but that really doesn't explain the XServe delays.

If new technology is being deliverd for the PowerMacs then obviously Apple will be waiting for this show. The release from Apple could be with the show or a bit after when the machines are ready.

What is interesting is that this could be an indication of a much faster PowerMac rev than expected by some. Not only could the next rev be in the 3GHz range, there is a potential for a processor that is much faster at that speed.

That is one possibility but a portable optimized processor could be coming or a SOC for the low cost / portable market.

Considering the tone of the announcement it could be all of the above. It is very possible that new portables, low cost desktops and upgraded PMG5's will be hitting the streets very soon.

Dave


Does anyone think this will be a venue to reveal the updated G5s, or is the 23rd still the expected date? Or will Apple wait until after this event, ie: April?

Regardless, this is something to pay attention to because as IBM reveals a roadmap, it indirectly reveals Apple's.

Boy if that isnt stating the obvious! :rolleyes:

[bar italia]

if any new processor it will be the PPC975, then will come the PPC976 based on Power5 too, but the dual core version, and then only the PPC980 which should be based on Power6

Exactly

[takao]

i guess this presentation is more about their POWER5 cpus and roadmap for power 6
hm i doubt they will release any news about the next PowerPC

[mkaake]

i guess this presentation is more about their POWER5 cpus and roadmap for power 6
hm i doubt they will release any news about the next PowerPC

yeah, i really don't see IBM coming out and saying: "this is what we're going to be doing for apple"... they'll talk oodles about the power5 and 6, and then we'll be arguing for the next 5 months what parts of the power5/6/7/8/1000 will be making it's way to the 975, 980, 990, 99183.143, etc...

but it's kinda fun to watch people get so uppety about it ;)

matt

[Omad0n]

Ok, I can't see how this news has any importance !? I read through the article and Apple isn't even mentioned or am I blind ?

We will see what is actually announced.

well, considering that macrumors sites that IBM is the current maker of our G5 I think it has importance. Just because they didn't mention apple specifically in the article doesn't mean that we won't get any info. I suppose you're right in one regaurd. We'll have to wait and see what is actualy announced.

[jsw]

FWIW, Apple's having a technical invitation-only (well, they told a lot of people about it, and are now deciding who they'll let in...) talk in Cambridge, MA on April 20 regarding the PowerPC and PowerMac systems, what they are, how to optimize for them, etc. Since it's after IBM's talk, I can only assume they'll incorporate elements of that talk. Also, I'm assuming that any announcement of near-term G5 products will occur before then so as to be included in the discussion.

[lucasraggers]

I'm expecting a great roadmap hinting at great PowerMac updates this year.

[kenaustus]

I have a feeling that IBM will take the opportunity to release news of advancements being delivered faster than the road map - they love firing a rocket up Intel's . . .

WHile I don't think it will impact the "soon to be announced" PMs it might have an impact on summer releases. More likely it will impact releases after the first of the year. The problem is that Mac lovers may now look at the 3 gig in summer as just a stepping stone for an announcement 6 months later . . . :D

[eric67]

I have a feeling that IBM will take the opportunity to release news of advancements being delivered faster than the road map - they love firing a rocket up Intel's . . .

WHile I don't think it will impact the "soon to be announced" PMs it might have an impact on summer releases. More likely it will impact releases after the first of the year. The problem is that Mac lovers may now look at the 3 gig in summer as just a stepping stone for an announcement 6 months later . . . :D

yes but with IBM as partner, Apple and mac users will now have to adapt to the 6 month time frame for processor revision with sigificative performance improvement.
I think we all have been too much affected by Moto inefficiency regarding processor development for the PM

[mowogg]

nice. even if things are updated, im still going to wait for 3ghz during the summer, but any updates would be awesome.


MY 400th POST!


You know,

With G5 sales not meeting expectations, it now seems like a pretty dumb move on the part of Steve Jobs to say "They'll be at 3ghz in a year."

It seems like so many individuals are putting off buying a G5 until the next mythical speed bump. I would be very interested to know how many of these people actually will eventually buy a G5 and how many of them are posers who can't afford or justify buying a G5 and are making excuses.

Sorry, that's kind of a rant. I really do enjoy MY NEW G5! It's tons faster than my B&W and it is so cool just to look at. At 1.8ghz it does everything I need, including video editing.

"Thanks for noticing me" (Eyore)

[DrGruv1]

I thought the 980 was next, but ok then, been trying to read up on the 976.

976 is the dual core version of the 975 and supposedly for the xbox.

Any other info ion the 975 or 976? speed/benchmark projections...

Do you think it will come out now?

Apple releases them on the 30th and the IBM semiar on the 31st?

[jwdawso]

March 30 is a Tuesday! I speculate that Apple will announce updates on March 30, and then on March 31 IBM will give details about the processors - Apple's event will be about Mac's, IBM's about processors. I hope!

[wdlove]

FWIW, Apple's having a technical invitation-only (well, they told a lot of people about it, and are now deciding who they'll let in...) talk in Cambridge, MA on April 20 regarding the PowerPC and PowerMac systems, what they are, how to optimize for them, etc. Since it's after IBM's talk, I can only assume they'll incorporate elements of that talk. Also, I'm assuming that any announcement of near-term G5 products will occur before then so as to be included in the discussion.

Both the IBM announcement yours are hinting at great things to come. A new Power PC 980 in the near future would be awesome. To think only a year ago we were speculating on the PPC 970. It looks as though my timing to purchase a new G5 is going to hit at just the correct timing.

[DaleDrechsler]

If people are anything like myself, They're waiting for a G5 Powerbook. I'm dying to switch from XP to Panther, but I need a portable and the current batch of G4 Powerbooks just can't entice me away from price equivalent PC desktop replacement style laptops (in terms of speed of processor). My wait for the G5 Powerbook continues...



[QUOTE=mowogg]You know,

With G5 sales not meeting expectations, it now seems like a pretty dumb move on the part of Steve Jobs to say "They'll be at 3ghz in a year."

[jwdsail]

G5 sales expectations may have been high. It's a first release ... First product w/ PPC 970s, 1st w/ new multi-fan cooling system, first w/ new case design, first w/ new MB design (Hypertransport), and the frst system w/ SATA drives...

As much as I've been drooling over the G5 since it's launch, I never buy the 1st release of any product.. TVs, computers, printers, software, etc.. I waited for the PB G3 300 even though everyone was excited about the first gen 233, 250, and 292 G3s.. even managed to save some cash.. And I waited for the PB G4/550, managed to save over the 400/500 PBs on that one too..

I suspect that inspite of the pent up demand, that there are many waiting for a revision (any revision - not just waiting for 3GHz or posing that can't afford it anyway...) before jumping into being a beta tester. Apple may have been well advised to have had a revision where the included drive sizes were changed, just so there would have been a precieved revision.... For some that may have been enough to get them to jump, to feel that any bugs there may have been had been addressed.

When Apple does release the next update, there will be buyers that have been waiting for the 3GHz update as well as the people that never buy 1st release products.. There will be a nice jump in sales. And yes, there will be some that just bought 2GHz G5s that will say that they're waiting for 4GHz before upgrading.. Starting to feel old all of a sudden...

Just my $0.02

Me


You know,

With G5 sales not meeting expectations, it now seems like a pretty dumb move on the part of Steve Jobs to say "They'll be at 3ghz in a year."

It seems like so many individuals are putting off buying a G5 until the next mythical speed bump. I would be very interested to know how many of these people actually will eventually buy a G5 and how many of them are posers who can't afford or justify buying a G5 and are making excuses.

Sorry, that's kind of a rant. I really do enjoy MY NEW G5! It's tons faster than my B&W and it is so cool just to look at. At 1.8ghz it does everything I need, including video editing.

"Thanks for noticing me" (Eyore)

[jsw]

You know,

With G5 sales not meeting expectations, it now seems like a pretty dumb move on the part of Steve Jobs to say "They'll be at 3ghz in a year."

It seems like so many individuals are putting off buying a G5 until the next mythical speed bump.

Excellent point. I was almost afraid to get my G5 last year because it'd soon be obsolete (I mean, come on, Steve said it'd be much better in a year).

Of course, now that I have it, I find it to be just fine at doing everything I want it to do, and the parts that will soon be "obsolete" (well, not really) like the SuperDrive and graphics card can be easily replaced - and I get to use a G5 for a whole year (or so) before the 3's come out.

But, yeah, a lot of people are waiting for the promised 3's. Look how excited people are for a bump coming out in the next week or two. This reminds me of the old days, when a 40MHz model would replace a 25MHz model, and that really meant something. However, for most of the people on this list, I think they're a bit too excited about a 2.0GHz to, say, 2.6GHz jump. Yeah, it's a 600MHz jump, but the dual-2 GHz (or even 1.6GHz) models already are so overpowered for what they do that it won't make any real-world difference to them. Gamers will likely be most affected by the graphics card, not the CPU, anyway.

So, yeah, it was an unusually bone-headed move for Steve to pre-announce - over a year ahead of time - the faster models.

Frankly, I'm amazed that mine's remain top-of-the-heap as long as it has. Perhaps if Steve hadn't said that, and more people bought the 2's, they'd've pushed out a faster model sooner...

Of course, I recognize the point that people are waiting for a second rev before buying (good advice, yes, and I probably should've waited as well, although I've been having a blast during the six months I've had mine). But I think that a lot of the eagerness I'm seeing isn't due to people wanting a debugged version, it's due to people wanting one that's "really fast". Honestly, the current ones already are. Now, there's no such thing as too fast. But I just think people are a little over-eager.

[Naimfan]

[QUOTE=DaleDrechsler]If people are anything like myself, They're waiting for a G5 Powerbook. I'm dying to switch from XP to Panther, but I need a portable and the current batch of G4 Powerbooks just can't entice me away from price equivalent PC desktop replacement style laptops (in terms of speed of processor). My wait for the G5 Powerbook continues...

Dale--

Don't hold your breath, and don't expect the G5 PBs to offer all that large a performance advantage over a tricked out G4.

Best,

Bob

[yamabushi]

I have yet to see an ad for either POWER or PowerPC processors from IBM. Even the recent blade server TV ads only mention Intel Xeon processors. If IBM is serious about challenging Intel then they need to start promoting alternatives to the general public.

[jsw]

...Don't hold your breath, and don't expect the G5 PBs to offer all that large a performance advantage over a tricked out G4.

Excellent point. I'd much rather have a "tricked-out" G4 - meaning a slight speed boost, a better graphics card, a better (say, 1900x1200) screen, and a faster hard disk. I'm sure Apple could produce that sooner, with fewer heat and reliability issues (PC laptops already have these things). I've always found that CPU's were the least limiting part of a laptop.

[wdlove]

Excellent point. I was almost afraid to get my G5 last year because it'd soon be obsolete (I mean, come on, Steve said it'd be much better in a year).

So, yeah, it was an unusually bone-headed move for Steve to pre-announce - over a year ahead of time - the faster models.

Now, there's no such thing as too fast. But I just think people are a little over-eager.

So, yes now we are almost at that point of it being a year. IBM's announcement may be a prelude to that faster G5 Rev. B.

That is correct, there is never a machine that's too fast. I don't think that we are too eager.

[Henriok]

It looks like it will be a presentation over actual POWER processors (Power4, Power5, etc.), not the PowerPC which the Mac runs on. In this day and age, ALL POWER-processors are also PowerPC-processors. The PowerPC 970 is indeed a POWER-processor too since it does include the complete POWER ISA. In fact, IBM does refer to it as a POWER-processor when they speak of the blade module JS20 (http://www.pc.ibm.com/europe/eserver/js20_about.html).

[eSnow]

Excellent point. I'd much rather have a "tricked-out" G4 - meaning a slight speed boost, a better graphics card, a better (say, 1900x1200) screen,

Haha you are expecting Apple of all companies to invest the $50 more to buy a high-res panel for their laptops? Forget it. The next PowerBook revision will have 1440, 1280, and 1024 px horizontal.

[jsw]

So, yes now we are almost at that point of it being a year. IBM's announcement may be a prelude to that faster G5 Rev. B.

That is correct, there is never a machine that's too fast. I don't think that we are too eager.

Hey, I'm not saying that I won't eBay the dual-2 to get a dual-3. :) I'm just saying that I think a lot of the eagerness is due to perceived speed improvements that will tend not to translate to the real world.

I think the "waiting for a rev" argument is a much better one - I know for a fact that they've already changed the power supply on the G5's, and I'm sure that lots of other things have gotten tweaked.

So, yes, of course if you're in the market for a G5 you should wait for the announcements. I just don't want people who just got a G5 to think that they've lost out on something great. The new ones will, of course, be better - just not as much better as the "old" G5's were compared to the G4's, since the first G5s added so much in addition to the chip (8X AGP, etc.), whereas I expect the "new" G5's to be an incremental improvement.

[jsw]

...In this day and age, ALL POWER-processors are also PowerPC-processors....

Isn't it more correct to say that all PowerPC processors are POWER processors, but that PowerPC processors are just a subset of the POWER processors?

Likely I'm just exposing even more ignorance than usual....

[jsw]

Haha you are expecting Apple of all companies to invest the $50 more to buy a high-res panel for their laptops? Forget it. The next PowerBook revision will have 1440, 1280, and 1024 px horizontal.

No, I don't expect Apple to do that anymore than I expect them to make a two-button mouse. :(

It'd just be nice, and it might actually sell computers if they didn't lag, oh, two years or so behind PC laptops in so many areas (disk, video, screen).

[blackbird71]

I have a soon to be convert to Mac. In May or so I will be buying something :confused:

I was very happy to buy a 17" iMac until I saw the 20" iMac. Ok I put it to the top of the list. Then I started looking at the benefits of a single processor PowerMac with 20" display. Now if I go that way ..... do I wait for the faster processor.... Grrrrrrrrr

Just my current rant...

[JamesDPS]

March 30 is a Tuesday! I speculate that Apple will announce updates on March 30, and then on March 31 IBM will give details about the processors - Apple's event will be about Mac's, IBM's about processors. I hope!

My money is with you -- my prediction is that new PowerMacs are introduced either the 23rd or 30th (30th makes sense, after the RAM discount ends -- they're obviously trying to push out all the current PowerMacs between that offer and the fact that PMs adorn Apples front page), and the IBM event is a follow-up in which they will probably mention the new G5's, as well as other projects, of course. Clearly, IBM is not going to throw a huge "Apple party", but Apple is definitely one of their more prominent customers, I would think. Maybe they'll announce something about their own supercomputer projects, too...

In any case, the point is that it makes a lot of sense that the new powermacs would come, or at least be announced!, (shortly) before this IBM event -- remember that XServes with 970FX procs were announced before IBM officially announced the chip and its technology; of course, it's taken some time for Apple to actually SHIP those xserves, but that's another story...

Then again, I could be talking out of my a$$. :cool:

[JamesDPS]

Oh yeah, and my other prediction is: don't hold your breath on Powerbook G5s. I hope I'm wrong.

[ffakr]

Isn't it more correct to say that all PowerPC processors are POWER processors, but that PowerPC processors are just a subset of the POWER processors?

Likely I'm just exposing even more ignorance than usual....

Close, but you've got it backward. The Power ISA includes the PowerPC ISA as a subset. (you've got that part correct)

Current Power processors are also PowerPC processors (they can run native PPC code)
PPC processors can not run all Power processor code, therefore PPCs are not Power.

As for Henriok's contention the 970s include the full Power ISA, I've heard rumors of this but I've seen no direct evidence that this is actually true. That is, I haven't bothered to download the full ISA specs on the 970 and Power4 to see if the 970 has the full Power ISA. That doesn't mean that Henriok isn't correct, just that I'm to lazy (as yet) to verify it. :-) :p

[ffakr]

So, yeah, it was an unusually bone-headed move for Steve to pre-announce - over a year ahead of time - the faster models.


Jobs made this [I'm sure] calculated announcement realizing that it would detract from early adopters.
He said it because existing users were fleeing the platform after 3 years of glacial processor development out of Motorola. At the time, Intel was shipping cpus that were clocked over 100% faster than Motorola. Jobs made the trade off... eschew some early G5 sales in exchange for a WHOLE lot of optimism on the part of the press and the Mac using public. Jobs had to demonstrate that a continuing investment in Apple wasn't a waste of resources. Apple can't survive as a Computer vendor by releasing a big CPU advance every 3-4 years followed by stagnant performance growth in the intervals. Apple, that is Jobs, had to show that 1) They had a kick ass cpu.. and 2) They were in it for the long run. How many companies would have plunked down cash for large Mac upgrades if they thought that Apple would be hopelessly outclassed by cheaper Dells again in 12 months.. or if they thought that Apple may be forced to move to x86 processors in 2 years because PPC development had dried up completely [thus destroying the end user's investment in PPC software].

[legion]

I have yet to see an ad for either POWER or PowerPC processors from IBM. Even the recent blade server TV ads only mention Intel Xeon processors. If IBM is serious about challenging Intel then they need to start promoting alternatives to the general public.

IBM does not sell POWER servers to the general public. That's your mistake. Xeon's can run x86 code and general software. POWER servers run specific OSs and software-- their buyers are aware of the POWER processors and have sales reps with IBM so they don't need "general" advertising.

When's the last time you saw an Itanium2 advert from Intel? There's a better chance of seeing that than an IBM POWER ad which wouldn't cater to the viewing audience though it would be costing serious dollars in televison time.

[Henriok]

The Power ISA includes the PowerPC ISA as a subset.Not all POWER-processors are PowerPCs. The POWER3 was the first processor to include both the complete PowerPC and the complete POWER ISAs.
As for Henriok's contention the 970s include the full Power ISA, I've heard rumors of this but I've seen no direct evidence that this is actually true.When IBM sales people talks about 970 for its pSeries line they always push its POWER carachteristics. PowerPC is hardly mentioned. I guess that "PowerPC" is considered either for embedded use or in Macintoshes. Nothing you want to hear when you buy a $80.000 server.
I haven't bothered to download the full ISA specs on the 970 and Power4 to see if the 970 has the full Power ISA.
I havn't verified it either but my IBM contacts were pretty specific about these points. I have no reason to doubt them.

POWER4 also include The PowerPC-AS ISA, and according to IBMs iSeries folk, that's something that 970 lack. Hence, no cheap iSeries-boxen built with 970. I think there might have been a market for an iSeries Blade Center? But, I think they'll wait fot the POWER5 for that. IBM says it will be made for low to middle end servers, including blades. POWER6 will be high end, ie including zSeries.

[areyouwishing]

I sure hope that all the people that buy 2nd Generation G5s don't have any problems. I think that with the way apple and IBM are doing the rev 2's you are taking just as big of a gamble. The change from 130mm to 90mm is a huge step, and we still haven't seen a production Xserve yet.

The only problem I have had with my 2ghz at work is the power supply whinning.

[otter-boy]

In this day and age, ALL POWER-processors are also PowerPC-processors. The PowerPC 970 is indeed a POWER-processor too since it does include the complete POWER ISA. In fact, IBM does refer to it as a POWER-processor when they speak of the blade module JS20 (http://www.pc.ibm.com/europe/eserver/js20_about.html).

Actually, they refer to the 970 as a power-based processor.

[kylos]

They'll likely outline the course of their various processors for a year or two. This should include the 980, which I have been informed by an FSB designer for the 970 will be ready by the end of the year.

[anubis]

It should be noted that not only is the POWER architecture used in the G5, but also the G4, G3, 604, 603, and 601. In fact every powermac ever made has been based on the POWER architecture.

Inteesting tidbit: POWER stands for "Power Optimization With Enhanced Risc"

[uberman42]

[QUOTE=DaleDrechsler]If people are anything like myself, They're waiting for a G5 Powerbook. I'm dying to switch from XP to Panther, but I need a portable and the current batch of G4 Powerbooks just can't entice me away from price equivalent PC desktop replacement style laptops (in terms of speed of processor). My wait for the G5 Powerbook continues...

Dale--

Don't hold your breath, and don't expect the G5 PBs to offer all that large a performance advantage over a tricked out G4.

Best,

Bob

Thanks for killing a potential switchers dream :p . Dale - keep hope alive. But I would advise- if a G5 does get released, wait for rev B. Trust me (being an owner of a 400Mhz TiBook and a current user of a 867 12" all revision A's - all with nagging issues that were fixed in rev B's and beyond) If you are aching for a Powerbook now, get a G4 867 or 1gig titanium used with the ram maxed and the HD upgraded to the latest 7200RPM Hitachi's. This was the pinnacle of the TiBook and all the kinks were worked out with that design. Sure no FW 800 built in and no bluetooth, but that system can tie you over till rev B of the G5 powerbooks are released. C'mon- you wanna switch- you wanna do it now!

[brianimator]

Well - you need 500 :o

Ok, I can't see how this news has any importance !? I read through the article and Apple isn't even mentioned or am I blind ?

We will see what is actually announced.

Below is the correspondence I had with the author of the story:

To: cboulton@jupitermedia.com
Subject: Your article on IBM's POWER Architecture


The XBox comes dragging its heels to the PowerPC platform, while Apple
(who along with Motorola helped design it) has been on it since the
early 90's - yet no mention of Apple at all in your article. I swear
you "tech analysts" live in a vacuum.


On Mar 17, 2004, at 9:35 AM, Clint Boulton wrote:

Good point. I'm aware of how PowerPC 970 (I believe is the chip) makes the
G4 and G5 scream. But that's kind of old news and am looking forward with
the new possibilities. I had a mention of it, but it got edited out amid all
of the other speculation of what might happen at the event.

Thanks,

Clint Boulton
Newslinx Managing Editor
Desk: 203-662-2860
Cell: 203-807-1344
cboulton@jupitermedia.com
Darien, CT

To which I said:

Surely, Apple will be one of the first in line to benefit from any new developments in the POWER / PowerPC lineup.

[brianimator]

With G5 sales not meeting expectations, it now seems like a pretty dumb move on the part of Steve Jobs to say "They'll be at 3ghz in a year."

Silly goose, many of us are waiting for the alleged 3ghz machine... of course sales are gonna slow down

[crenz]

It should be noted that not only is the POWER architecture used in the G5, but also the G4, G3, 604, 603, and 601. In fact every powermac ever made has been based on the POWER architecture.

Inteesting tidbit: POWER stands for "Power Optimization With Enhanced Risc"

Uh, are you confusing the PowerPC architecture with the POWER-processors by IBM (which are using the PowerPC architecture)? Also, it's probably not "Risc", but "RISC", which gives the quote a whole different meaning...

[Rocketman]

It seems like so many individuals are putting off buying a G5 until the next mythical speed bump. I would be very interested to know how many of these people actually will eventually buy a G5 and how many of them are posers who can't afford or justify buying a G5 and are making excuses.


The buyers of computers buy them when they need them. Some people on the margins accelerate or decelerate purchases, but the vast majority of purchases happen on a schedule because there will always be a better next computer.

The simple fact that this will be a Rev B Powermac release will cause massive buying independent of specifications. "You can look for this."

When Powerbook G5's come out I am a Rev A buyer.

Some people will be Rev B buyers. But they will be suffering while I am rocking and rolling (computing)!

Rocketman

http://www.v-serv.com/-upload/avatar2.jpg

[welborn]

What if IBM announced high-end servers (blades, et cetera) featuring MacOS X Server?

A server platform uses fewer off-the-shelf binaries, so a quick recompile for POWER of the whole OS shouldn't be a problem. As long as all the standard Unix-based stuff still compiles, it just becomes a better, more compatible, more usable Unix variant. Right now their servers run Linux and AIX, why not MacOS X?

[Prom1]

G5 sales expectations may have been high. It's a first release ... First product w/ PPC 970s, 1st w/ new multi-fan cooling system, first w/ new case design, first w/ new MB design (Hypertransport), and the frst system w/ SATA drives...

As much as I've been drooling over the G5 since it's launch, I never buy the 1st release of any product.. TVs, computers, printers, software, etc.. I waited for the PB G3 300 even though everyone was excited about the first gen 233, 250, and 292 G3s.. even managed to save some cash.. And I waited for the PB G4/550, managed to save over the 400/500 PBs on that one too..

I suspect that inspite of the pent up demand, that there are many waiting for a revision (any revision - not just waiting for 3GHz or posing that can't afford it anyway...) before jumping into being a beta tester. Apple may have been well advised to have had a revision where the included drive sizes were changed, just so there would have been a precieved revision.... For some that may have been enough to get them to jump, to feel that any bugs there may have been had been addressed.

When Apple does release the next update, there will be buyers that have been waiting for the 3GHz update as well as the people that never buy 1st release products.. There will be a nice jump in sales. And yes, there will be some that just bought 2GHz G5s that will say that they're waiting for 4GHz before upgrading.. Starting to feel old all of a sudden...

Just my $0.02

Me


Wasn't the Dual 1.8Ghz a rev. B??? or was it just the PowerMac G5 that a few hundred people on this very site wanted and got because Apple listened!! On something they didn't promise, let alone didn't hint at nor plan. 3Ghz will be here maybe announced 2 months later, say October 04 (with the top end justifying that wait by another 200Mhz,more RAM), but will be satisfying none the less. How many more will they sell if its announced 2 months later?? The 3Ghz they've PROMISED so with SOooOOoo many of us EXPECTING to see/have it, it'll be very bad for Apple/IBM not to deliver - with clients dollars going elsewhere.

My only concern is IBM is pushing Linux heavily, and no matter what articles say that IBM isn't planning on dumping AIX, I see the G5/G6 being a problem for Apple because the future chips might be better optimized for Linux and not Unix (BSD; as AIX is based on that). Yeah I know, but there is a functional difference. If Linux is Apples major OS competitor across its lineup in 2 years how will it affect our future products & OS X implementation???

[vpalvarez]

:) Apple is probably promoting the G5 on their homepage to spur sales in order to clear the inventory for the new revisions. This IBM event seems like an acceptable venue for apple to make the announcement.

[sonyrules]

power5 will make an intresting PPC chip... heres to 4 ghz

[CalfCanuck]

I sure hope that all the people that buy 2nd Generation G5s don't have any problems. I think that with the way apple and IBM are doing the rev 2's you are taking just as big of a gamble. The change from 130mm to 90mm is a huge step, and we still haven't seen a production Xserve yet.

The only problem I have had with my 2ghz at work is the power supply whinning.
Absolutely! I think that getting the 90's into the motherboard equation presents Apple with a lot of head scratching - any further moves to 3ghz later in the year will probably be much easier, and will leverage off the beta testing of this new RevB motherboard (and all the people who maintain that it will be more solid than the RevA).

[Mac-Xpert]

Uh, are you confusing the PowerPC architecture with the POWER-processors by IBM (which are using the PowerPC architecture)? Also, it's probably not "Risc", but "RISC", which gives the quote a whole different meaning...I think it's exactly the other way around. IBM first developed the POWER architecture and then in a collaboration with Apple and Motorola developed the PowerPC (601) which was sort of a cut-down version (like the 970 is too, from the POWER 4) from the first POWER processor.

As far as I know the first PowerPC was code compatible with the POWER processor, so that IBM could put it in a server and run the same POWER code on the PowerPC. If this is also true for the 970 versus POWER 4 I don't know. (maybe someone else here know something about that?)

[Henriok]

Actually, they refer to the 970 as a power-based processor.No, they refer to the JS20 as POWER-based, witch it is. It's not Xeon bsed, nor based on Itanium, Athlon, Opteron or whatnot. It's based on POWER technology. You shoud have continued reading bcause it's also "Designed to support POWER technology". So that's that.

If you're still not convinced, please visit these pages:
- Linux on POWER (http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/linux/power/) where they, among other things, talk about Linux in the Blade Center, ie the 970 equipped JS20.
- More info: BladeCenter JS20 (http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/bladecenter/js20/more_info.html) from witch I quote: "Featuring innovation POWER technology (http://www.ibm.com/servers/eserver/linux/power/index.html?ca=LoP&met=callout&me=W&P_Site=Blade_JS20) and advaced SIMD capabilities" (btw, thats not my poor spelling ;)

Until IBM plainly states that 970 in fact does not include the complete POWER ISA, all evidence ponit to that it does, even if its name isn't POWER, but just PowerPC.

[Trekkie]

Knowing something about IBM, I would suggest they will give a fairly clear roadmap, specifying what they plan to achieve with the 970 and the 980. Given the "slew of announcements" expected, the roadmap will most likely cover a wide variety of uses for the Power chips, not just Apple.


My thought is this will be a Power5 focused event. IBM does a lot with the PowerPC 970 in their BladeCenter JS20 and then the OEM relationships, but the bread and butter comes from the Power5 and the recent cave of Intel on the x86-64 technology is perfect window for them to get out and raise the ruckus on their pure 64-bit processor follown - Power5.

That being said however I'm all for 970/980 type info. though I'm really hoping for a speedbump by Apple next week because my CC has room and my wife wants a laptop. So she gets my 12" PowerBook and I get my dream machine.

23" screen on the fastest Dualy they have baby. It'll take my first born's college futures, but hey she's only 2 and she's smart :D

[tink1984]

:cool: I think this is going to be a debutant ball for the IBM PowerPC processor line to drive excitement and buzz in the industry. Looks like big blue may be loosening the tie a bit. We will see.;)

I definitely think that Apple mention will be a part of it, but more so the cu-de-ta over Chimpzillal for the gaming boxen. Maybe we'll see a Linux desktop announcement ala HP as well. We will see x2.;) ;)

I have wild expectations about the Apple CPU side of things, but being grounded in these matters always is the wise move fo me. We will see x3.;) ;) ;)

[aswitcher]

:) Apple is probably promoting the G5 on their homepage to spur sales in order to clear the inventory for the new revisions. This IBM event seems like an acceptable venue for apple to make the announcement.

I agree.
That and catching new iPod users and potential switchers visiting the Apple site...

[stripes]

It looks like it will be a presentation over actual POWER processors (Power4, Power5, etc.), not the PowerPC which the Mac runs on. This is more interesting considering the long-term prospects of IBM chips than the immediate prospects for Apple.

When PowerPC was invented they left out some POWER stuff that was "too hard" for a low cost CPU (which I figured was good). They added some stuff that wasn't needed in a high performance workstation (which I thought was dumb -- or at least dumb that they didn't add those to "all future POWER CPUs") The added instructions were mostly (only?) single persision floating point.

Several of IBMs "aimed at workstation" CPUs have also included the PowerPC instructions. The POWER4 was one of these, and it is likely that the POWER5 and POWER6 will also have them. Unfortunately the POWER4 did *not* have the AltiVec (Velocity Engine) instructions, and the POWER5 may or may not have them (I think IBM has to pay Moto for them, so it might be to their benifit to not include them in CPUs unless Apple is the intended consumer, if they were free they might include them on the off chance that Apple would buy them and do a seriously high end box).

I think IBM's "North Star" CPU was the first CPU to have POWER and PowerPC instruction sets, it also had PowerAS instructions, which I don't think the POWER4 has (they mostly deal with 256 bit addressing, or maybe it was 1024 bit addressing for the AS/400 single system image which in part relies on hiding things in a vast address space). I don't think the POWER4 had the PowerAS stuff. Maybe the POWER5 will.

[Henriok]

I think IBM's "North Star" CPU was the first CPU to have POWER and PowerPC instruction sets, it also had PowerAS instructions, which I don't think the POWER4 has. I don't think the POWER4 had the PowerAS stuff. Maybe the POWER5 will.POWER4 does indeed have PowerPC-AS instructions as it is the core of current line of iSeries (AS/400) computers. POWER4 supports five architectures: 64-bit PowerPC-AS, 64-bit PowerPC, 32-bit PowerPC, 64-bit POWER and 32-bit POWER.

[wdlove]

:) Apple is probably promoting the G5 on their homepage to spur sales in order to clear the inventory for the new revisions. This IBM event seems like an acceptable venue for apple to make the announcement.

I'm anxious for the announcement of the Rev. B Power Mac also. My thoughts about the IBM event are different. Wouldn't it be highly unusual for Apple to make such a big announcement at another companies event. Unless there is a leak that Steve will be speaking at this event.

[legion]

Unfortunately the POWER4 did *not* have the AltiVec (Velocity Engine) instructions, and the POWER5 may or may not have them (I think IBM has to pay Moto for them, so it might be to their benifit to not include them in CPUs unless Apple is the intended consumer, if they were free they might include them on the off chance that Apple would buy them and do a seriously high end box).

IBM doesn't have to pay any licensing to Motorola for "AltiVec." AltiVec is just a marketing name, but the SIMD unit is freely available to IBM (IBM uses the name VMX). The reason why IBM doesn't use it is because, well, it's a lousy vector unit. Having to strap the connection to a server chip (POWER series) for VMX is useless as they have the money to attach a better vector unit on chip. They put the VMX unit on the current PPC970 with much protest and at Apple's instance (mostly because of Apple marketing for the last few years about AltiVec accelerated programs) If it was left to IBM, they wouldn't have used it at all as technology-wise it's a backwards step.

[mac-in-fool]

With the Apple Promo's ending on the 27th, and IBM's big conference on the 31st. That leaves Tuesday the 30th the date for a PowerMac release. Otherwise IBM would steal some if not all of Apples Thunder.

[AidenShaw]

If IBM is serious about challenging Intel then they need to start promoting alternatives to the general public.

Given that most Linux software won't even run on a PPC, they need to do more than simply do more promotions.

To paraphrase the Clinton compaign - "It's the applications, stupid!"

[invaLPsion]

With the Apple Promo's ending on the 27th, and IBM's big conference on the 31st. That leaves Tuesday the 30th the date for a PowerMac release. Otherwise IBM would steal some if not all of Apples Thunder.

I think it would make sense for Steve to present at or hold a press conference after the event, since Apple is the only company that uses the 970 as a consumer processor.

Updates on the 31st would make sense, because it is the start of the 2nd fiscal quarter and investors would like to see new computers. It would be a sign of good things to come for the 2nd quarter.

Updates on the 31st make sense business-wise and time-wise.

[Gyroscope]

IBM doesn't have to pay any licensing to Motorola for "AltiVec." AltiVec is just a marketing name, but the SIMD unit is freely available to IBM (IBM uses the name VMX). The reason why IBM doesn't use it is because, well, it's a lousy vector unit. Having to strap the connection to a server chip (POWER series) for VMX is useless as they have the money to attach a better vector unit on chip. They put the VMX unit on the current PPC970 with much protest and at Apple's instance (mostly because of Apple marketing for the last few years about AltiVec accelerated programs) If it was left to IBM, they wouldn't have used it at all as technology-wise it's a backwards step.


What on earth are you talking about? Have you got any proof for it. As far as I am concerned Altivec/VMX (call it whatever you want) is far more superior than any SIMD unit in Intel/AMD cpu's.

[.a]

today is the ibm day ... i highly doubt new pm g5 announcements ... though it will be interesting what ibm has cooked since the last power-presentation
.a

[CmdrLaForge]

At which time is the IBM event ? Anyone who knows ? I know its in NY, but that all. :confused:

[AppleJustWorks]

Is this IBm Event available for viewing to the public? Like Apple did with SJ's Keynote? :confused:

I made a promise to myself that no-matter what I would keep telling myself that there won't be any updates till' July, so that when they don't arrive, I won't be dissappointed....That little voice in my head will just *nod and go"told ya"*

And like SJ's keynote will it be available for viewing after it is over because unless I can get an all day library pass to use the computers, I'm going to be"learning"....

[aswitcher]

Yeah, how excited should we be?

[AppleJustWorks]

Yeah, how excited should we be?


When you say Yeah are you referring to my question? About public viewing? :eek:

[yoman]

I wonder if Anything will happen. I am hoping but I know I shouldn't.

I hope.
I shouldn't
I hope
I shouldn't
I HOPE!!!!!!

:D

[Raveny]

do you know when this events starts?

[rnizlek]

I'm not sure when it starts, but I read it's at the W Hotel in Manhattan, if that helps.

[Zaty]

I wonder if Anything will happen. I am hoping but I know I shouldn't.

I hope.
I shouldn't
I hope
I shouldn't
I HOPE!!!!!!

:D

I don't think Apple will announce new PM at or after the event. We don't even know for sure if Apple is involved or not. I think it's rather an IBM only event. I would be nice to know when it starts nevertheless.

[numediaman]

This is pretty sad. Mac users have to wait around and hope IBM saves Apple. How ironic!

Two months ago the whole marketing of Apple was in the hands of Pepsi.

I don't expect anything from today's meeting except maybe some guidance about where IBM's technology goes in the future. If Apple has a new product announcement you would think they would announce it themselves. If it is announced at an IBM event it shows that Apple no longer controls the fate of their own hardware.

[Hiroshige]

I am taking a nap. Please use the private message feature of this forum to e-mail me when there is solid news about new Apple hardware. My computer is programmed to beep loudly when such e-mail is received. This nap could last a few hours (whenever the wires carry news from the IBM G5 meeting), or it could last until WWDC.

[ffakr]

It looks like the event is geared to executives.. not a public or web-streamed event. I'm sure IBM will make an official press release this afternoon, but they are pretty tight lipped right now. Even their microprocessor web pages don't mention the event.

[jyvin]

looks like there is a press release on the event.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040331/315500_1.html

[miloblithe]

looks like there is a press release on the event.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040331/315500_1.html

Good, but doesn't sound like the news we wanted to hear.

[Henriok]

Good, but doesn't sound like the news we wanted to hear.Well.. I thought this part pretty much confirms that Cell vill be POWER/PowerPC-based:

"Sony today disclosed that it has licensed the Power Architecture from IBM."

One shoud remember that IBM rately mentions PowerPC when they talk about high end processors even if they in fact are PowerPCs. This licensing program is not entirely about processors like POWER5 but also lower end stuff like... 970. IBM is obviously investing a lot of resources in this venture, and it will broaden the adoption of POWER/PowerPC-arcitechture. Hopefully to the personal computing sector too.

[neonart]

This is pretty sad. Mac users have to wait around and hope IBM saves Apple. How ironic!

Two months ago the whole marketing of Apple was in the hands of Pepsi.

I don't expect anything from today's meeting except maybe some guidance about where IBM's technology goes in the future. If Apple has a new product announcement you would think they would announce it themselves. If it is announced at an IBM event it shows that Apple no longer controls the fate of their own hardware.

Aaah. No.

Why would it mean that? Apple can USE this event and it's hype to announce something. It does not mean they need IBM events to announce anything. Also remember that just like all other computer makers depend on Intel, AMD, etc. to provide them chips, so does Apple. IBM is good about announcing future chips, but if they wanted to keep something under wraps, I'm sure Apple would be inclined to agree- but it does not mean they are at IBM's mercy.

Let's keep a positive outlook on things... :)

[.a]

well ... still no new info ... looks like there is still this press conference ongoing ... hmmm ... i am so sure that the new power macs are coming @ wwdc ...but i hope we can have a look at ibms power roedmap before/today
.a

[wdlove]

I'm very anxious to hear if any real Apple news will be released today. I skimmed the article, but didn't see anything that seemed to apply to Apple. So I will be patient for further news. It's on to WWDC.

[aswitcher]

I'm very anxious to hear if any real Apple news will be released today. I skimmed the article, but didn't see anything that seemed to apply to Apple. So I will be patient for further news. It's on to WWDC.

Yep, WWDC better be big. If for one moment I suspect its going to be as disappointing as January was for hardware Steve's going to have spittle all over his streaming video feed to me! ;) :p

[Henriok]

I find it fascinating that IBM (or Motorola for that matter) can host an event in witch they try to pitch the PowerPC platform without mentioning Apple anyware. Apple and Nintendo are BY FAR the largest PowerPC customers in the world, but they are hardly ever mentioned.

[wdlove]

I find it fascinating that IBM (or Motorola for that matter) can host an event in witch they try to pitch the PowerPC platform without mentioning Apple anywhere. Apple and Nintendo are BY FAR the largest PowerPC customers in the world, but they are hardly ever mentioned.

You would think that they would realize that it's not good to bite the hand that feeds you.

[grouse]

...phrases such as "is it IBM compatible or Mac?" used to be common parlance.

Now it seems we've turned full circle. Since IBM compatible means POWER and the dark days are over.

Of course, let's not forget that in the speed race, there's nothing to stop DELL going over to IBM chips, at some point in the future, since Windows will run fine on them.

It won't necessarily be a problem for Microsoft, but I would be a little worried at the moment if I were intel, IBM aren't a small operation, and what with AMD an' all, the legendary x86 architecture might finally be coming to its long-extended long-overdue end.

[Henriok]

Of course, let's not forget that in the speed race, there's nothing to stop DELL going over to IBM chips, at some point in the future, since Windows will run fine on them.Did I miss a pressrelease somewhere? What's rumored is that the Xbox 2 developer boxes run an operating system based on a modified NT kernel.. That's not even near the same as "Windows will run fine on them" in the future. Even if Microsoft makes a full fleged Windows distribution for POWER/PowerPCs (something that's extremely unlikely) every application will have to be either recompiled or emulated. Emulated IA-32 on PPC is not what emulated IA-32 is on IA-64 (Itanium), and there's not much thir party support for that platform despite that giants like Intel, HP and Microsoft have been pushing for that plaform for years.

[BenRoethig]

IBM doesn't have to pay any licensing to Motorola for "AltiVec." AltiVec is just a marketing name, but the SIMD unit is freely available to IBM (IBM uses the name VMX). The reason why IBM doesn't use it is because, well, it's a lousy vector unit. Having to strap the connection to a server chip (POWER series) for VMX is useless as they have the money to attach a better vector unit on chip. They put the VMX unit on the current PPC970 with much protest and at Apple's instance (mostly because of Apple marketing for the last few years about AltiVec accelerated programs) If it was left to IBM, they wouldn't have used it at all as technology-wise it's a backwards step.

The Power5 is supposed to include a much better (and far better intergrated) vector unit called VMX 2. It's supposed to trickle down to the 975/6 as well.

[BenRoethig]

What if IBM announced high-end servers (blades, et cetera) featuring MacOS X Server?

A server platform uses fewer off-the-shelf binaries, so a quick recompile for POWER of the whole OS shouldn't be a problem. As long as all the standard Unix-based stuff still compiles, it just becomes a better, more compatible, more usable Unix variant. Right now their servers run Linux and AIX, why not MacOS X?

Good question. From what I've read, it wouldn't be too hard to get OSX to work on POWER 4/5. Exactly why wouldn't Apple want their OS on high-end servers and work stations?

[DMann]

Good question. From what I've read, it wouldn't be too hard to get OSX to work on POWER 4/5. Exactly why wouldn't Apple want their OS on high-end servers and work stations?

It just might be compiled for Power 5 in the future.....

[thatwendigo]

Did I miss a pressrelease somewhere? What's rumored is that the Xbox 2 developer boxes run an operating system based on a modified NT kernel.. That's not even near the same as "Windows will run fine on them" in the future. Even if Microsoft makes a full fleged Windows distribution for POWER/PowerPCs (something that's extremely unlikely) every application will have to be either recompiled or emulated. Emulated IA-32 on PPC is not what emulated IA-32 is on IA-64 (Itanium), and there's not much thir party support for that platform despite that giants like Intel, HP and Microsoft have been pushing for that plaform for years.

Actually, you're wrong on a couple of points. Microsoft already has a functioning implementation of Windows for PowerPC, and even went so far as to release the NT system for MIPS RS, DEC Alpha, PowerPC and x86 as of versions 3.51 and 4.0. The reason this could be done is that they created something called the HAL, or hardware abstraction layer, which acted as a go-between for the kernel and application and the actual platform the software was being run on.

Wikiwpedia says this about the NT kernel: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT)
Microsoft hired a group of developers from Digital Equipment Corporation to build NT, and many elements reflect earlier DEC experience with VMS and RSX-11. NT uses a highly layered design, with the hardware hidden from the NT kernel by a hardware abstraction layer, and most operating system API functionality provided by API-specific interface modules that present specific functionality such as the Win32, OS/2, DOS and POSIX system call compatibility environments. Windows NT was the first operating system to use Unicode internally.

Think that this is history? It's not. (http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=298898) The current Windows XP core also makes use of HAL, though mostly as a way to manage the digital polyglot of manufacturers that provide parts. Rumors also place the XBox2 SDKs on Apple G5s with a specially modified Windows kernel, which would make it pretty clear that you could run the OS on the PowerPC still. Apple keeps the x86 version of OS X around, and you can bet Microsoft has code that could run on POWER/PowerPC if that market segment looks like it could take off. They're all about making money, after all.

Also, it's Microsoft. Like they care that you have to shell out money to replace your software... :rolleyes: :p :D

[Henriok]

Rumors also place the XBox2 SDKs on Apple G5s with a specially modified Windows kernel, which would make it pretty clear that you could run the OS on the PowerPC still.I have no reason to believe that Microsoft can make a new version of Windows to be run on a PowerPC platform. They obviously have done it before and it wouldn't be too hard to do it again, just like it wouldnät be too hard for Apple to do the same for x86. the question at hand is if the will do it. That's what i deem highly unlikey.

Porting a modified kernel and some libraries like DirectX and drivers just to make the basic operating system for a very specified platform like XBox Next is a project on a very different level than doing a complete port of an entire desktop operating system to a new platform. And I see absolutely no point for MS to do so.

And there's thrid party apps and drivers...