Why Do People Still Buy Microsoft? [Archive]

DJ567

Feb 7, 2009, 12:58 PM

Thats your opinion and you're welcome to it but it doesnt mean you are right

i have owned an xbox premium which i sold after 2 years never had a single issue with it, i now own a xbox elite, which only has a slight issue with hdmi but i use component hd which is almost as good, and again no other problems.

where as i bought a ps3 and the very next day it stopped working and i had to get it replaced.

also the best wireless mouse i have ever owned and still own is a standard 2 button microsoft RF laser mouse, solid piece of hardware that has worked perfectly for years, the same cant be said about both a logitech and the 3 apple mighty mice/mouses i have owned (currently on my third).

I agree with you about windows but again thats my opinion does not make it right. I did buy oem vista ultimate and have it installed on bootcamp, i dont use it for anything i can use os x, or xp via vmware, but i dont see that it is that bad an OS just not to my liking.

Eidorian

Feb 7, 2009, 01:03 PM

I've been more than happy with Microsoft's offerings in software and hardware over the years. If someone else sells what I think is a better product I'll research it and then decide my purchase accordingly.

garnaby

Feb 7, 2009, 01:06 PM

I have had some ups and downs with Microsoft, like my first xbox 360 had one red light the first time i switched it from new. But i had it replaced and its been fine since. I also have found Microsoft's hardware to be good as said before the Wireless mice and keyboards are far better than anything else apart from my mac keyboard and mighty mouse.

mogzieee

Feb 7, 2009, 01:22 PM

You have to remember Microsoft has a huge marketshare and the majority of people will follow that trend,

They make bad software and even worse hardware.

Thats you opinion. Many people think their hardware is pretty good (the keyboards & mice are pretty decent, apparently)

Don't get me started on Windows.

Windows is a market leader. People follow the trend. When people think 'computer' they think if a machine running Windows, generally. Windows has that market share because not everyone cares about performance from an Apple computer - take businesses for example. 10 base level iMac's would cost the company $11,990. However, a company would probably rather spend less on a whole bunch of Dell systems with windows at $399 a pop, $3,990 in total.

Xbox 360 RROD anyone?

The original Xbox was never a big hit, but the 360 holds probably 40% of the gaming market (i'm guessing... PS3 at 40% and Wii at 20%). People get it because it is cheaper than the PS3 - it was released earlier than the PS3, too. Plus, why get a PS3 when much the same games released for PS3 are also released for Xbox 360. Plus, if you want competition - compare the successes of Xbox Live and Playstation Home... who's superior there?

Zune leap year debacle anyone?

That was a big cock up, yes... but what about the iPod mini battery issues back in 2004ish? Bigger cock up if you ask me.

PS3 and iPods are far superior.

Quite. But there are people that choose differently, going for the different features. The Zune has bluetooth, does the iPod touch? No.

Melrose

Feb 7, 2009, 01:26 PM

I am surprised by how many people still buy products from Microsoft.

Don't get confused between the consumer who actually chooses to buy a Windows computer and the consumer who needs a new computer so he goes to BestBuy and makes an impulse purchase that happens to come with Windows.

Most of Windows sales and distribution comes simply from being the 'default' OS available in the store. I agree that Leopard is a far, far superior system (due to my consistently crummy experiences with all flavours of Windows) but it's not the OS that's so readily available an widely distributed as it's competitor.

As far as other stuff goes you don't have to look very far to see how successful (</sarcastic>) the Zune has been (eg: Not many people buy it at all) and the 360 I can't say since I've never used one.

And the Windows Business Software division is wrapped pretty tight - the very nature of that market either hardly ever updates or would be very reluctant to make any major switch at all for cost.

I won't turn into a needles rant on how I view Windows (you know that already...)

sharp65

Feb 7, 2009, 01:28 PM

Troll alert, troll alert.

Cassie

Feb 7, 2009, 01:32 PM

FWIW, Microsoft makes some of the best mouse's and keyboards out there.

For software, most people come back to Microsoft because it's what they are used to. They may not necessarily like it, but it's basically all they know. And, most of their software is pretty decent if you know how to use it right. As far as hardware goes, they have some issues with the 360 and the Zune, but overall they're also decent products.

but the 360 holds probably 40% of the gaming market (i'm guessing... PS3 at 40% and Wii at 20%).
...Not sure what you could be basing this off of, but last time I checked, the Wii was the leader in the market and the PS3 was dead last (Could have changed by now though, I suppose.)

mogzieee

Feb 7, 2009, 01:34 PM

...Not sure what you could be basing this off of, but last time I checked, the Wii was the leader in the market and the PS3 was dead last (Could have changed by now though, I suppose.)

Total guess. Just from the friends around me as to what people are getting.

isethx

Feb 7, 2009, 01:37 PM

i love my 360. i have never been a fan of the playstation controller

boonlar

Feb 7, 2009, 11:32 PM

The fact is that microsoft currently controls gaming. Xbox 360 is the best console currently out at least in terms of software selection. The same can be said about windows. PS3 and Macs are good but your software selection is too limited so people go for the microsoft stuff.

DiamondMac

Feb 7, 2009, 11:38 PM

Because they make some great products

I am Apple through and through but when Microsoft makes a better product, I will buy it.

When Apple makes a better product, I do buy it

Project Alice

Feb 8, 2009, 12:17 AM

i do get very mad at microsoft, but i have been BETA testing Windows 7, and it is already better than windows XP, vista and Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger

I have an xbox and an xbox 360 arcade, the xbox have a bad dvd drive (but its not MS's fault its the crappy thompson drive)
my 360 has had no problems after about 1-2 months.

my ps3 had to be replased after 2 months, and again a few days after i got it back the 1st time.
the 1st time it shut off and wouldnt turn back on, and the second time it wouldnt read any Discs.

Doctorzongo

Feb 8, 2009, 01:03 AM

Because Micro$oft has their software bundled with many computers, and the computer manufacturers don't seem to care that Micro$oft has profited off of open source developers (who aren't in the credits) and Chinese oppression.

Rodimus Prime

Feb 8, 2009, 01:55 AM

please people do not feed this troll.

The poster is nothing less than a troll.

yg17

Feb 8, 2009, 02:09 AM

This thread=fail.

I have a Microsoft BlueTrack mouse which so far has been better than any Logitech piece of garbage I've owned over the years (their mice are great at first, but they never last more than a year) and my 360 is almost 3 years old with out a single problem.

Windows is garbage, but that's really their only bad product. I use Office 2007 at work and it's pretty good, and Outlook beats the crap out of Apple Mail by a longshot.

Doctorzongo, hate to break it to you, but Apple benefits off Chinese opression as well. Where do you think Apple products are made? Yup. Some factory in China where workers are paid slave wages in terrible working conditions, just like virtually every other factory in China. And the entire UNIX core of OSX is open source that Apple has turned around and sold for a profit.

MisterMe

Feb 8, 2009, 02:36 AM

I am surprised by how many people still buy products from Microsoft. ...Newbie, I believe that you asked a honest question. I do not believe that you are a troll.

To your question: Wintel PCs are sold virtually everywhere that computers are sold. Comsumers who buy Microsoft do so because that is what ships with their computers. It is possible to install and use other operating systems. Whether they be opensource and free or commercial and fee-based, however, installing something other than Windows is the stuff of buffs, nerds, and geeks. 99.999% of consumers don't fall into these categories so Windows it is.

Third party productivity software is dominated by Microsoft because Microsoft leveraged Windows to drive the competition into the ground. It benefits from the old mantra "The job isn't done until Lotus doesn't run." WordPerfect used to dominate the wordprocessor market. Now, WordPerfect receives a subsidy from Microsoft.

You can never forget this fact--most software and hardware purchases are not made by private citizens. They are made by businesses. Big businesses employ people who make these kinds of purchases. They buy the hardware and software that will keep them employed. There are many reports of businesses--both governments and private--converting from Macs to Windows. Virtually every one of these reports included the fact that the business hired a much larger staff to support its new Windows computers. Small businesses rely on salespeople to perform the duties of dedicated staff.

For a large fraction of business customers see themselves as not really having a choice. Their computer purchases must be compatible with their customers, vendors, and peers. That means buying what everyone else buys and using what everyone else uses.

Denholm

Feb 8, 2009, 04:50 AM

I think many people buy Microsoft software because they don't know better.

The Xbox is a fine console, but it is flawed by poor design. It's working out expensive to Microsoft - but that's their problem.

Windows is an average product at best, considering the company behind it and the billions of dollars invested. IMO Microsoft needs to go through the Windows Team and slash the chaff - lots of chaff in that group.:rolleyes:

hexonxonx

Feb 8, 2009, 05:20 AM

I happen to think Microsoft makes some pretty impressive software. I used to be a huge fan in the 90s and would buy all kinds of Microsoft software releases. I'm even typing this on a six month old HP running Vista.

They just happened to make a bad move with Vista and possibly with the next version as well. They can save themselves by making only two versions of the nexy release and making them solid performers.

chagla

Feb 8, 2009, 10:02 AM

opeter

Feb 8, 2009, 10:47 AM

Yah, I don't understand this either. Why don't people pay 3 times more to Apple and ditch PC/Microsoft. People are just stupid I think. Everyone must have been brainwashed and forced to use Windows even though there's the best operating system that was ever made (and will ever be) OS X? It just works! Though usually with the limited set of hardware and software it's tightly integrated to of course.

The world would be a better place if all of us were using Mac OS.

Hope not. Apple is almost as bad, as MS. Think of closed-source, the iPhone apps-store, the power to control everything.

zap2

Feb 8, 2009, 11:19 AM

My 360 has yet to RROD, and its been a great console! Also loved my Xbox 1

Software for my netbook is currently running XP, which is a very small OS. I could put Ubuntu on it, but XP is working well(although I need to Nlite sound drivers back into it!)

And the Windows 7 beta for a try, its decent

zap2

Feb 8, 2009, 11:21 AM

Total guess. Just from the friends around me as to what people are getting.

You'd be mistaken....worldwide the Wii is ahead, and PS3 and Xbox 360 are closer, but I think the Xbox 360 might have a lead.

Then within the US Xbox beats PS3 by more, but Wii is still ahead

(Although they are all great systems)

TSE

Feb 8, 2009, 11:54 AM

FWIW, Microsoft makes some of the best mouse's and keyboards out there.

For software, most people come back to Microsoft because it's what they are used to. They may not necessarily like it, but it's basically all they know. And, most of their software is pretty decent if you know how to use it right. As far as hardware goes, they have some issues with the 360 and the Zune, but overall they're also decent products.

...Not sure what you could be basing this off of, but last time I checked, the Wii was the leader in the market and the PS3 was dead last (Could have changed by now though, I suppose.)

Wii has 55%, 360 has 35%, and PS3 has 10% is what I read from Game Informer last month.

Eidorian

Feb 8, 2009, 12:46 PM

IJ Reilly

Feb 8, 2009, 12:53 PM

Hope not. Apple is almost as bad, as MS. Think of closed-source, the iPhone apps-store, the power to control everything.

Unlike Microsoft, which is open source and doesn't want to control anything.

DJ567

Feb 8, 2009, 01:23 PM

Unlike Microsoft, which is open source and doesn't want to control anything.
it clearly says almost as bad

IJ Reilly

Feb 8, 2009, 01:32 PM

it clearly says almost as bad

Whatever that means. All corporations try to control as much of the market for their products as they possibly can. Problems with this arise only when one company controls too much of a market, which Microsoft clearly does and has for decades, and Apple never has and quite probably never will.

mattniles007

Feb 8, 2009, 01:33 PM

Advertising, people are easily influenced.

Melrose

Feb 8, 2009, 02:08 PM

Hope not. Apple is almost as bad, as MS. Think of closed-source, the iPhone apps-store, the power to control everything.

I believe the phrase you're looking for is "I think Apple is almost as bad as MS" - given that it is based purely on experience. I just could as easily say that M$ is much, much worse but it would not necessarily be true outside of my own experience with their products (which has been pretty bad).

In which case this would just dissolve into another You-hate-I-hate-whoever's-products argument, with no winner.

Rodimus Prime

Feb 8, 2009, 02:25 PM

You can never forget this fact--most software and hardware purchases are not made by private citizens. They are made by businesses. Big businesses employ people who make these kinds of purchases. They buy the hardware and software that will keep them employed. There are many reports of businesses--both governments and private--converting from Macs to Windows. Virtually every one of these reports included the fact that the business hired a much larger staff to support its new Windows computers. Small businesses rely on salespeople to perform the duties of dedicated staff.

There is so much BS in that. IT departments do not buy software to keep them employed. Sorry that is not the case. IT departments are already horribly over worked and under staff because companies see them as nothing more than overhead.

The real reason they buy everything from Microsoft is SINGLE SOURCE responsibility. It makes their job easier. When something goes wrong they can call up Microsoft and have them fix it. There is no finger pointing involved because it single source.

Also most of the work IT staff do or jobs to do does not involve the OS. Going all apple would not reduce the overhead cost of IT since most if it is largely unaffected by maintain the system. The IT people on these boards will tell you that largely they do not have problems running the Windows based server.

EmperorDarius

Feb 8, 2009, 02:44 PM

Yah, I don't understand this either. Why don't people pay 3 times more to Apple and ditch PC/Microsoft. People are just stupid I think. Everyone must have been brainwashed and forced to use Windows even though there's the best operating system that was ever made (and will ever be) OS X? It just works! Though usually with the limited set of hardware and software it's tightly integrated to of course.

The world would be a better place if all of us were using Mac OS.

If Apple would be as popular as Microsoft it's products probably wouldn't cost so much. And it probably wouldn't have so much limited hardware also.
And OS X IS better than Windows...for a lot of people.

MisterMe

Feb 8, 2009, 06:34 PM

... IT departments do not buy software to keep them employed. Sorry that is not the case. ...There are so many supporting examples as to make this statement laughable.

Rodimus Prime

Feb 8, 2009, 06:48 PM

There are so many supporting examples as to make this statement laughable.

and your post is full of so much ignorance and lack of understanding of the IT world...... Multiple people here who do work in IT will agree with me.

elppa

Feb 8, 2009, 06:53 PM

PS3 and Macs are good but your software selection is too limited so people go for the microsoft stuff.

I'd say for gaming certainly Windows has a big lead.

But for everything else the Macintosh has an incredibly rich software selection and I believe gives away very little to Windows now. This despite Apple doing a massive platform transition at the beginning of the decade.

Only in a few specific areas (CAD for example) will you not be able to find a Macintosh equivalent that is equal or in many cases better to its Windows counterpart.

Then there's the Mac exclusive apps. Who are the Windows equivalent of independent Mac developers like Panic, Omni, Delicious Monster, BareBones etc. Independent companies who craft very high quality piece of software with terrific fit and finish for home/personal use. Most of them use Apple's development tools, most of the good ones make use of the Cocoa frameworks.

These developers are a huge asset to the platform. If you count up numbers Windows has more apps. If you measure quality, then Windows starts looking a little less compelling.

DJ567

Feb 8, 2009, 07:48 PM

people buy windows because its cheap -> its cheap because m$ have such a large market share -> m$ have such a large market share because years ago they flooded it with a cheap OS that would work on most hardware

if os x was available on all hardware it would probably sell more, but it would be a lot less stable, and probably a lot more like windows, after all that is all anyone thinks about when you say microsoft. despite the fact they make some decent software and hardware too

63dot

Feb 8, 2009, 07:52 PM

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 08:01 PM

Our culture has become addicted to the use of Windows, Office, and X-Box, and besides the last one mentioned, MS is just mediocre at best.

I disagree on the last point. Xbox is mediocre at best as well. Just because more people use it doesn't mean it's any good. Same situation as Windows, MS is just buying everyone out and forcing competitors out.

63dot

Feb 8, 2009, 08:04 PM

I disagree on the last point. Xbox is mediocre at best as well. Just because more people use it doesn't mean it's any good. Same situation as Windows, MS is just buying everyone out and forcing competitors out.

OK, then. Let's call X-Box mediocre, or just below mediocre.

But then I would call Microsoft Office and Windows just plain shabby. :)

TSE

Feb 8, 2009, 08:16 PM

Windows is not a bad OS. Mac OS X is not a bad OS. There is no such thing as a bad or good OS. Period. I know people that still use Windows ME just because they want to be rebels, even though it doesn't make sense. I know people that use OS 9 as full time OS because they don't want to get used to Mac OS X.

Vista = Mac OS X = Ubuntu = Solaris = XP = Mac OS = Windows 2000.

Now, depending on the user's needs, these can change, but honestly there is no debating whose opinion is right.

IJ Reilly

Feb 8, 2009, 08:26 PM

I was just discussing this with a chef earlier today. It's not much different than how Subway got a hold in New York City, then the rest of the country. It's all about getting a strong foothold early. McDonald's has their foothold even though every fast food joint, big and small, are better imho.

I think it's way different, completely different than the way any company has ever obtained such a huge share of any market -- a bizarre historical accident that will never be duplicated.

bruinsrme

Feb 8, 2009, 08:32 PM

I have 5 operational xbox360s through out the house. One died on me due to an overheat issue. My fault as I placed it above a pioneer 49txi which runs rather warm.
MS Server with 7 PCs (6 XPpro 1 Vista) and 5 360's and a PS3 networked. No problems with viruses, worms or BSODs on any of the PC's. 360s have served us well.

Any PC crashes seem to be HDD or RAM related not windows. Unless widows causes hard drive failures

I personally buy MS products because they work for me at a decent price point.

Les Kern

Feb 8, 2009, 08:35 PM

600+ MB for a word processor?
That makes files with an "x" on the end that most people can't open "forcing" more people to buy it?
Then, out of the goodness of their heart, they make a translator... that only opens Word docs and not Excel?
Seven versions of an OS? Why? More dough out of the idiot CEO's who sign the purchase order?

It all starts with one question that few are willing to ask.

While MS does make some nice products, it's about time ordinary people realize how they are being played. Cash must be the MS God, because it isn't the users.

bruinsrme

Feb 8, 2009, 08:48 PM

DiamondMac

Feb 8, 2009, 09:01 PM

I disagree on the last point. Xbox is mediocre at best as well. Just because more people use it doesn't mean it's any good. Same situation as Windows, MS is just buying everyone out and forcing competitors out.
I am a big PS3 man and very big Apple buyer

But the 360 is an excellent gaming machine

Their games, sales, and Live are all top-notch whether people want to admit it or not

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 09:21 PM

I am a big PS3 man and very big Apple buyer

But the 360 is an excellent gaming machine

Their games, sales, and Live are all top-notch whether people want to admit it or not

That's like saying Windows is an excellent OS because of the software available, sales and online support. I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way.

Eidorian

Feb 8, 2009, 09:25 PM

That's like saying Windows is an excellent OS because of the software available, sales and online support. I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way.The won't stop me from enjoying the software on my Windows machine. :D

DiamondMac

Feb 8, 2009, 09:25 PM

That's like saying Windows is an excellent OS because of the software available, sales and online support. I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way.

No, it is nothing like what I was saying

MisterMe

Feb 8, 2009, 09:31 PM

... There is no such thing as a bad or good OS. Period. I know people that still use Windows ME just because they want to be rebels, even though it doesn't make sense. ...You contradict yourself. If Windows Me is not a bad OS, then why does it may no sense to use it?

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 09:34 PM

No, it is nothing like what I was saying

Well, everything you said about the Xbox applies to Windows, but that doesn't make Windows an excellent OS just like how it doesn't mean Xbox is an excellent gaming machine.

I don't understand why people are giving their money away to Microsoft when there are equal or better alternatives out in the market. Each and every one of you who has a 360 here is guilty of financing Microsoft.

aethelbert

Feb 8, 2009, 09:59 PM

I don't understand why people are giving their money away to Microsoft when there are equal or better alternatives out in the market. Each and every one of you who has a 360 here is guilty of financing Microsoft.
While I don't have one nor do I want anything in that category, why does that make someone "guilty?" You make it seem a crime. I honestly cannot speak too highly of Apple's products, either...

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:02 PM

While I don't have one nor do I want anything in that category, why does that make someone "guilty?"

It's just an expression.

Melrose

Feb 8, 2009, 10:06 PM

You contradict yourself. If Windows Me is not a bad OS, then why does it may no sense to use it?

WIN! Good call.. Although, even with such Segal-movie-plot-thin logic, I have to agree that WinMe really was that bad.

TSE: OSX cannot be even remotely related to any 'logical' equation of operating systems. And it is entirely in your own opinion that Windows is not a bad OS... I could offer just as sound an argument otherwise, but again, it would be my opinion.

DiamondMac

Feb 8, 2009, 10:06 PM

Well, everything you said about the Xbox applies to Windows, but that doesn't make Windows an excellent OS just like how it doesn't mean Xbox is an excellent gaming machine.
That is your opinion

The fact that the 360 sales are solid, XBox Live gets rave reviews, and games on the 360 are getting great reviews says something otherwise

On the whole, I would rather play on the PS3 and use the Blu-Ray but I also love the 360.

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:10 PM

That is your opinion

The fact that the 360 sales are solid, XBox Live gets rave reviews, and games on the 360 are getting great reviews says something otherwise

On the whole, I would rather play on the PS3 and use the Blu-Ray but I also love the 360.

Opinions have to be consistent across the board, otherwise you're an hypocrite.

Let's see Windows sales are solid, Software and Games for Windows gets rave reviews and Windows has extensible online live support.

Which means either Xbox and Windows are excellent products, or both mediocre.

Since we've already established that Windows is a mediocre product at best, it follows that the Xbox is also mediocre. The various RROD problems justify this.

Just think of Xbox as the PC and PS3 as the Mac. Just because PC has more sales, doesn't mean it's better than Mac. PS3 is more expensive but has better hardware and far more reliable than the error prone Xbox.

DiamondMac

Feb 8, 2009, 10:13 PM

Since we've already established that Windows is a mediocre product at best, it follows that the Xbox is also mediocre.
Or Windows is mediocre and the 360 isn't

I am not sure why you refuse to say they aren't the same thing other than just being blind to hating anything Microsoft.

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:15 PM

Or Windows is mediocre and the 360 isn't

I am not sure why you refuse to say they aren't the same thing other than just being blind to hating anything Microsoft.

360 is plagued by the same problems that the PCs and Windows is plagued with. How can you even defend Microsoft?

DiamondMac

Feb 8, 2009, 10:15 PM

How can you even defend Microsoft?

Because I am objective and can admit when they do in fact make a good product

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:19 PM

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:22 PM

dukebound85

Feb 8, 2009, 10:22 PM

How can it be a good product when 1 in 3 fails from RROD. By buying such substandard product, you're financing Microsoft and their attempts to stop the growth of Mac and OSX.

If you want Apple to prosper, you have to hit MS where it hurts most. Don't buy their products.

the 360 has the best games out of the 3 imo

seriously, why the ms hate? i hope MS prospers

DiamondMac

Feb 8, 2009, 10:22 PM

By buying such substandard product, you're financing Microsoft and their attempts to stop the growth of Mac and OSX.

If you want Apple to prosper, you have to hit MS where it hurts most. Don't buy their products.

When they make a product worth buying, I will continue to buy their products.

Things like the 360 and Office are Microsoft products that I use quite a bit because they are worth the money.

I actually have no problem supporting Microsoft (even though the MAJORITY of my products are Apple) because I believe the best is brought out in Apple when Microsoft is breathing down their necks. Competition brings out the best in both companies and WE the consumer end up winning.

The RROD was a very bad problem for the 360 but I have never gotten 1 RROD and even those getting them seem to not mind too much as they keep playing the system as seen by the HUGE numbers in XBox Live

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:25 PM

If people are willing to overlook such major flaws in the 360, now wonder people are willing to overlook flaws in Windows. I've lost faith in humanity.

DiamondMac

Feb 8, 2009, 10:25 PM

If people are willing to overlook such major flaws in the 360, now wonder people are willing to overlook flaws in Windows. I've lost faith in humanity.

How old are you?

dukebound85

Feb 8, 2009, 10:26 PM

i have gone through just as many 360's as i have iphones....being 5. what does that tell you op?

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:28 PM

How old are you?

If 1 in 3 Windows crashed and wiped out the user's harddrive, I doubt you would be calling it an excellent product. Why do you keep saying the 360 is worth buying when it's clearly not?

DiamondMac

Feb 8, 2009, 10:29 PM

Why do you keep saying the 360 is worth buying when it's clearly not?
Because it is :cool:

aethelbert

Feb 8, 2009, 10:30 PM

How can it be a good product when 1 in 3 fails from RROD. By buying such substandard product, you're financing Microsoft and their attempts to stop the growth of Mac and OSX.

If you want Apple to prosper, you have to hit MS where it hurts most. Don't buy their products.
Two different product categories. If the 360 is the superior product, then people should be able to buy it. I didn't know that I'm not allowed overlap in my preferences for computer companies.

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:35 PM

Two different product categories. If the 360 is the superior product, then people should be able to buy it. I didn't know that I'm not allowed overlap in my preferences for computer companies.

That's the thing. 360 is NOT superior. Like I said MS makes crappy software and crappier hardware. The 360 has a higher failure rate than Windows, which is an achievement in itself. PC's sell more but they're not better than Macs. Xboxes sell more but they're not better than the alternatives.

Can you imagine Windows having the failure rate of the 360. Do you think people would tolerate that? That's why I am surprised why people tolerate the failings of 360.

PS3 is the mac of the console world. far better hardware and design, very reliable and better value for money.

aethelbert

Feb 8, 2009, 10:36 PM

That's the thing. 360 is NOT superior.
Too bad that's completely subjective, thus making aforesaid argument moot.

dukebound85

Feb 8, 2009, 10:38 PM

That's the thing. 360 is NOT superior. Like I said MS makes crappy software and crappier hardware. The 360 has a higher failure rate than Windows, which is an achievement in itself. PC's sell more but they're not better than Macs. Xboxes sell more but they're not better than the alternatives.

Can you imagine Windows having the failure rate of the 360. Do you think people would tolerate that? That's why I am surprised why people tolerate the failings of 360.

PS3 is the mac of the console world. far better hardware and design, very reliable and better value for money.

says you..... and frankly your opinion doesnt hold the most weight with me. the 360 is a cooler console and i have a ps3 as well so yea, i think i know what im talking about

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:38 PM

Too bad that's completely subjective, thus making your aforesaid argument moot.

Failure rates are not subjective. MS makes shoddy hardware and people still keep buying them, even people who are deeply critical of Windows. That was the whole point of this thread.

Why do people still keep buying MS? Zune was a joke. Xbox RRODs all the time. Windows is a nightmare. And yet people still keep on going back to MS.

dukebound85

Feb 8, 2009, 10:40 PM

Failure rates are not subjective. MS makes shoddy hardware and people still keep buying them, even people who are deeply critical of Windows.

then dont buy it. why do you keep tying this to windows, they arent even aimed at the same audience....

aethelbert

Feb 8, 2009, 10:41 PM

Failure rates are not subjective. MS makes shoddy hardware and people still keep buying them, even people who are deeply critical of Windows.
If failure rates are the only factor in something's superiority over something else, then I guess I'd be picking up a pocketwatch rather than a computer any day.

Let's just face it... it's alright and perfectly acceptable to not be an Apple fanboy and bow down to every product that they release...

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:43 PM

then dont buy it. why do you keep tying this to windows, they arent even aimed at the same audience....

I am tying this to Windows because as a mac user we're very critical of Windows and yet you guys are perfectly happy to use a product from MS that has a higher failure rate than Windows.

numbersyx

Feb 8, 2009, 10:44 PM

This is a silly thread... and who cares about MS hardware - it's a Windows world even for us Mac users...

aethelbert

Feb 8, 2009, 10:45 PM

as a mac user we're very critical of Windows
Why? I'm not.

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:47 PM

Why? I'm not.
You're not, but most of us are. But they're happy to buy 360 when the equivalnt of OSX -> PS3 is available. Make the switch!

dukebound85

Feb 8, 2009, 10:49 PM

aethelbert

Feb 8, 2009, 10:51 PM

You're not, but most of us are.
No, the general consensus of respected users on this forum is that Windows is a solid and respectable operating system.
But they're happy to buy 360 when the equivalnt of OSX -> PS3 is available. Make the switch!
Because everyone:
a.) has all that extra money to throw at something which will make little difference
b.) wants to learn something completely foreign
c.) cares

...

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 10:53 PM

who effing cares, windows and a 360 serve entirely differnt purposes

its all about the games and to many, the 360 is the best

windows that the 360 are both platforms to run your games and apps.

you would not tolerate a 1 in 3 failure rate of windows.

you should not tolerate a 1 in 3 failure rate of Xbox.

dukebound85

Feb 8, 2009, 11:04 PM

windows that the 360 are both platforms to run your games and apps.

you would not tolerate a 1 in 3 failure rate of windows.

you should not tolerate a 1 in 3 failure rate of Xbox.

you made that very clear. your solution. dont buy it.

i will as i find it to be the best platform

NT1440

Feb 8, 2009, 11:06 PM

windows that the 360 are both platforms to run your games and apps.

you would not tolerate a 1 in 3 failure rate of windows.

you should not tolerate a 1 in 3 failure rate of Xbox.

And if your xbox is among the 2/3 that didnt fail? (not to mention that those issues are resolved now anyway with the Jasper release)

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 8, 2009, 11:16 PM

And if your xbox is among the 2/3 that didnt fail? (not to mention that those issues are resolved now anyway with the Jasper release)

I am not concerned about those 2/3. The whole point of this thread is to understand why the peop;e in the 1/3 still buy MS after being burned. It seems they never learn from their mistakes.

DiamondMac

Feb 8, 2009, 11:17 PM

I am not concerned about those 2/3.

Well, at least you admit that

NT1440

Feb 8, 2009, 11:19 PM

I am not concerned about those 2/3. The whole point of this thread is to understand why the peop;e in the 1/3 still buy MS after being burned. It seems they never learn from their mistakes.

Burned by the extended 2 year warranty that covers the Red Rings of Death specifically? Oh yea, I was SOOOO pissed when they promptly repaired my 360, never to have the problem again:rolleyes:

Do I like MS for OS's? HELL no, but they do make some quality products elsewhere.

Rodimus Prime

Feb 8, 2009, 11:34 PM

Wow at first I was going to give AppleMacTheBest the benfit of the doute but now he is nothing less than a troll.

A troll on an apple forum bashing Microsoft. That is a new one but a troll is a troll.

AppleMacTheBest you are an example of why people thing so poorly of apple fans. You spit out crap and lies that are not true and make us all look bad. When people think of apple they think of people like you.

63dot

Feb 9, 2009, 12:26 AM

If you want Apple to prosper, you have to hit MS where it hurts most. Don't buy their products.

I pretty much do OK on my macs w/o any MS products for two out of the three machines I have. On my rev. a iBook, I use the bundled software which came with Explorer which I don't use. On my dual Power Mac, besides the software it came with, I have Adobe stuff.

But my Mac mini, which I have to use for online classes, have assignments that need the use of Excel and Word so I have MS Office for Mac on that machine. But when I took classes in person and had to turn in papers, I used Clarisworks and Appleworks for everything.

If the current online class did not require those two Microsoft programs, I would not have bought Microsoft Office for Mac.

If in the future when I get a new Mac, if there is no need for MS Office, I simply won't buy it since I could use my money better elsewhere. I think Office is too bulky and not easy to use like every other word processor I have used in its place. My first reservations against MS was that I hated the company, but these days, I am not so angry at them anymore, but if I don't need to buy their stuff, I am that much better off.

I do admit to liking MS Flight Simulator quite a bit back in the day.

Syrus28

Feb 9, 2009, 12:30 AM

Honestly, you sound like you're 12.

If people are willing to overlook such major flaws in the 360, now wonder people are willing to overlook flaws in Windows. I've lost faith in humanity.

How can it be a good product when 1 in 3 fails from RROD. By buying such substandard product, you're financing Microsoft and their attempts to stop the growth of Mac and OSX.

If you want Apple to prosper, you have to hit MS where it hurts most. Don't buy their products.

I am tying this to Windows because as a mac user we're very critical of Windows and yet you guys are perfectly happy to use a product from MS that has a higher failure rate than Windows.

Microsoft is a very successful company that makes Operating Systems, Office Suites, Gaming Consoles, and a Media player and your acting like their the plague of the world. There are a lot more important things in the world than wasting your time hating a company that doesn't even know you exist.

People have preferences, and your too ignorant to understand that everyone in the world isn't like you (and thank god they aren't). So what if people prefer Windows to Mac? What does that mean to you? What harm has me purchasing a Xbox and using a PC done to you? None.

I owned a Zune 30, currently own an Xbox 360 and iPhone, and dual-boot my MacBook with Windows 7, and look - the world is still standing. If you believe Microsoft is fundamentally flawed in the way they develop their products, then don't buy them. But don't try to sit here and act like they and the people that choose to support them are Satan.

NT1440

Feb 9, 2009, 12:31 AM

I do admit to liking MS Flight Simulator quite a bit back in the day.

The entire development team just got laid off:(

63dot

Feb 9, 2009, 12:36 AM

The entire development team just got laid off:(

It's so ironic that one of the few things I do like about the company ends up getting canned. I think MS is so huge and successful that they probably have a small amount of importance they put to furthering Flight Simulator.

I considered buying Age of Empires but I never got that title but I have heard so many good things about it.

NT1440

Feb 9, 2009, 12:39 AM

It's so ironic that one of the few things I do like about the company ends up getting canned. I think MS is so huge and successful that they probably have a small amount of importance they put to furthering Flight Simulator.

I considered buying Age of Empires but I never got that title but I have heard so many good things about it.
The flight team was canned as part of the massive lay offs due to the status of the economy and how its effecting MS.

Syrus28

Feb 9, 2009, 12:41 AM

Let me ask you something.

Xbox 360 suffer from the same problems that PCs and Windows suffer and yet in your case, Windows is a mediocre product but Xbox 360 is an excellent product? I don't understand the logic here.
The Xbox 360 is a fine product, and I want to know where you got your 1/3 failure rate. Microsoft is the only one who knows, and since they haven't spoken, your entire point is invalid. However, they have acknowledged there is a problem, that's why they extended the warranty for ALL Xbox 360's to 3 years.

Windows is perfectly fine. However, it does much a much stronger competitor than the Xbox does (in my opinion). Mediocre and excellent are fully objective terms and can only be applied when referenced to something else. Windows is mediocre. Compared to What? Mac OS X? Fine, that's your opinion. Xbox is excellent? Compared to What? The PS3? Again, that's an opinion.

NT1440

Feb 9, 2009, 12:44 AM

The Xbox 360 is a fine product, and I want to know where you got your 1/3 failure rate. Microsoft is the only one who knows, and since they haven't spoken, your entire point is invalid. However, they have acknowledged there is a problem, that's why they extended the warranty for ALL Xbox 360's to 3 years.

There have been many articles laying claim that it was indeed near 1/3

Syrus28

Feb 9, 2009, 12:44 AM

The flight team was canned as part of the massive lay offs due to the status of the economy and how its effecting MS.

I wouldn't the economy the problem. Microsoft is enormously profitable. It's that the R&D costs of the Entertainment and Devices Division has skyrocketed but it's profitability (so far) is minimal.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/kotaku/2009/01/spending.jpg

NT1440

Feb 9, 2009, 12:46 AM

I wouldn't the economy the problem. Microsoft is enormously profitable. It's that the R&D costs of the Entertainment and Devices Division has skyrocketed but it's profitability (so far) is minimal.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/kotaku/2009/01/spending.jpg

What I meant is that when economic woes are possible, companies cut as many "expendable" people as possible. No they are not in financial trouble, but yes it was a direct result of the economy. Its just sad to see anyone lose their job.

Syrus28

Feb 9, 2009, 12:47 AM

There have been many articles laying claim that it was indeed near 1/3

Yes, but what are their sources? It's very easy to speculate (as we should known on MacRumors) but there are many things on the internet that aren't true. The failure rate could very well be 1/3 but unless Microsoft stated it, we know just as much as the people stating such things.

NT1440

Feb 9, 2009, 12:48 AM

Yes, but what are their sources? It's very easy to speculate (as we should known on MacRumors) but there are many things on the internet that aren't true. The failure rate could very well be 1/3 but unless Microsoft stated it, we know just as much as the people stating such things.

Retailers were reporting the 1/3 number. Who would know better than the guys having to deal with returns?

Dont get me wrong, i love my 360, i just like to keep threads honest.

Syrus28

Feb 9, 2009, 12:53 AM

Retailers were reporting the 1/3 number. Who would know better than the guys having to deal with returns?

Dont get me wrong, i love my 360, i just like to keep threads honest.
That's my point. We have Microsoft claiming 3-5% and anonymous retail managers claiming anything form 16.5% to 33% to 65%, etc.

Now, do we believe a Gamestop Manager, or Microsoft?

NT1440

Feb 9, 2009, 12:54 AM

That's my point. We have Microsoft claiming 3-5% and anonymous retail managers claiming anything form 16.5% to 33% to 65%, etc.

They arent anonymous. And if it was actually 3-5% they wouldnt have sunk the TWO BILLION dollars into the warranty programs that they had to.

Syrus28

Feb 9, 2009, 01:03 AM

They arent anonymous. And if it was actually 3-5% they wouldnt have sunk the TWO BILLION dollars into the warranty programs that they had to.
Not to get in an argument here, but of all the stories I've heard, their sources are usually "BB associate who wish to remain anonymous", to "former EB Games Manager [Insert Name Here]" If there are any truly valid sources, I would be delighted to read them... I've been wrong plenty of times. However, the consensus of failure rates is hardly consistent enough to make me believe they are true.

Again, a failure rate of 33% could have indeed motivated Microsoft to spend $1 Billion. But it could also have been 10%, or 20%, or to keep customers happy and suppress the increasingly bad press of their product. Microsoft only stated that it was more than was acceptable, but who knows what their definition of "acceptable" is. I really don't know.

GroovyLinuxGuy

Feb 9, 2009, 02:12 AM

There is so much BS in that. IT departments do not buy software to keep them employed. Sorry that is not the case. IT departments are already horribly over worked and under staff because companies see them as nothing more than overhead.

Agreed.

The real reason they buy everything from Microsoft is SINGLE SOURCE responsibility. It makes their job easier. When something goes wrong they can call up Microsoft and have them fix it. There is no finger pointing involved because it single source.Disagree. Have you ever had to deal with Microsoft trying to support you. Our Windows admins have given up on Microsoft support completely. MS likes to tell you the theoretical fix for an issue, which unfortunately doesn't usually work in an enterprise Production environment. For all their fancy certs, they may as well be fresh out of University (no that's not a dig at CompSci students). All they can really do is recite the fixes not actually come up with one on their own.

Also most of the work IT staff do or jobs to do does not involve the OS. Going all apple would not reduce the overhead cost of IT since most if it is largely unaffected by maintain the system. The IT people on these boards will tell you that largely they do not have problems running the Windows based server.Not sure what kind of IT work you do, but at my company it takes 2 Windows sysadmins to administer 25 Windows Servers and 3 Linux SysAdmins to look after ~300 Debian servers (me being one of them and I still have time to lend a hand to our HelpDesk when they have the odd Mac issue). And as far as not involving the OS, our DBA, SysAdmins, HelpDesk and programmers are all involved at the OS layer (don't really know how you can write an efficient app if you don't know the platform inside and out but that last part is only my opinion). I'd rather pay the higher price for a Mac and have a stable Unix platform from a "big" company then an unstable, smoking crater where there was once a windows server.

Rodimus Prime

Feb 9, 2009, 02:34 AM

deleted

boonlar

Feb 9, 2009, 03:16 AM

http://gamerblag.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/dbzvidya.png

I think this sums up the consoles.

Also ps3 has no games.

Oh and xbox360 ps3 wii iphone and zune are all made by Foxconn in the same factories somewhere in China.

opeter

Feb 9, 2009, 05:24 AM

I am tying this to Windows because as a mac user we're very critical of Windows and yet you guys are perfectly happy to use a product from MS that has a higher failure rate than Windows.

Because as a mac user we're very critical of Windows...? WTF?

I mean, what should this mean. I treat myself as a Mac user too, but i'm not critical to Windows. I have a Mac mini at home, at workplace i work on a PC. Never got any problems with it.

Is this really a religion of yours, or what?

DJ567

Feb 9, 2009, 08:20 AM

Windows vista is a good OS imho, even tho most people disagree, OSX is a similarly good OS, both have pros and cons, but that doesnt make 1 better than another.

microsoft make good and bad products (360s supposedly break but i've never had a problem)
apple make good and bad products (how often do we see problems with macs on this forums (nvidia discrete graphics problems anyone!!!))
sony make good and bad products (ps3 works i just dont like using it, my first 1 died after just a day)

i could go on forever with every company ever (except amstrad lol)

people should buy what they want to buy, people should sell what they want to sell, people should have the choice, thats why we live in a capitalist society, not so everyone has the same substandard products (name one good car to come out of the soviet union and you will see my point)

I have macs, running windows, 360s and a ps3 rarely have a problem with any (im lucky i guess) would not say any1 is better but i certainly have a preference towards OS X for computing needs and the 360 for gaming.

63dot

Feb 9, 2009, 08:50 AM

I know Apple has probably been at or near the top in terms of reliability, usability, and service but what draws me to even their unpopular products like the Cube, or the outrage over no firewire in the Macbook unibody, is that I have a certain bit of brand loyalty for them.

For instance, I love Fender guitars and have ever since I started playing in the '70s, and they have had wild swings in terms of quality and service, but I still found something I liked about them. I also love Volvo, but some of their later stuff makes me scratch my head even though I am very loyal to them. But thankfully, Apple is much more consistent than those companies.

If Apple started becoming more sloppy like Microsoft or Dell, I would not notice for a long time since part of what filters what I see in Apple are the great experiences I have had from their past products.

Melrose

Feb 9, 2009, 09:39 AM

You're not, but most of us are.

While I am personally very critical of Windows - for good reason in my case - I can also appreciate that for some people it has worked okay. And I like to think that my decision is not merely an hapless guess but an educated choice based on experience. I don't like being lumped into a group of people who blindly just jump on board because they happen to have a product with a certain badge on it..

I can't stand Windows, but I'd buy a 360 before I bought a PS3... but only because that's what everybody near me has (I'm not much into gaming anyway). Plus, it look downright hot. :D

Burned by the extended 2 year warranty that covers the Red Rings of Death specifically? Oh yea, I was SOOOO pissed when they promptly repaired my 360, never to have the problem again:rolleyes:
+1 :D

chuckcalo

Feb 9, 2009, 11:24 PM

Some people rather spend $300 on a machine that "should work" than spending $1000+ on a machine that "just works". They both work.

As for hardware, I must say Microsoft have made one of the best gaming mouse ever: IntelliMouse 3.0.

Windows is buggy, yes; but is what a 70% of the planet use. I never knew about Macs until like 4 years ago and I've been a PC user for more than 13 years (I'm 20 now).

P.S: 360 ftw.

SpaceKitty

Feb 10, 2009, 12:17 AM

mothy

Feb 10, 2009, 11:46 AM

chewietobbacca

Feb 10, 2009, 02:20 PM

I cannot comment on Zune, XBOX etc.

------------

With regards to Windows vs OS X.

Most of enterprise computing do not buy Windows because 'it is windows'
They buy and install Microsoft Office as cheaply as they can.

Which means they buy PCs running Windows.

i.e. The decision is not made based on the operating system, it is based on getting Office and Outlook.

For home use, cost is still the barrier.

I have persuaded only a handful of friends and family to stump up the extra money for an Apple at home. 2 Reasons i try to do this.

1 - They will be happier (They ALL are)
2 - I stop the 'My computer is broken' calls.

Compatibility is a big issue too. Companies can't afford to be at the whims and mercy of Apple. Whereas Windows promises legacy support, Apple doesn't. For instance, imagine if a company had a bunch of PPC computers that up til now were running Leopard fine. Snow Leopard rolls around, and PPC is now out dated, and they can't run programs on half their hardware because they're Snow Leopard based? You think a company would just up-and-upgrade everything?

MS's bread and butter is enterprise, which they do a magnificent job at it, with the customizations allowed and so on. Exchange is marvelous. As long as the global economy runs on MS, it will provide services to it.

As far as the entire XBOX thing goes - i've had my elite for half a year and haven't had problems. My friend had a RROD but had it replaced promptly. Yeah, real bummer getting it replaced promptly :rolleyes:

IJ Reilly

Feb 10, 2009, 02:29 PM

Microsoft promises legacy support, but by no means do they always deliver. And how many applications are broken by OSX updates?

FX120

Feb 10, 2009, 05:26 PM

Microsoft promises legacy support, but by no means do they always deliver. And how many applications are broken by OSX updates?

Heh. I am still running a FoxPro 2.5 client from 1992 on Windows 7, that's about as good as you can get these days.

Although it would be nice to be able to move the Fox server up to something more modern than NT4, but the disks have quit reading and it's hard to find a more modern machine with a 5.25" floppy drive :)

IJ Reilly

Feb 10, 2009, 06:34 PM

Heh. I am still running a FoxPro 2.5 client from 1992 on Windows 7, that's about as good as you can get these days.

Although it would be nice to be able to move the Fox server up to something more modern than NT4, but the disks have quit reading and it's hard to find a more modern machine with a 5.25" floppy drive :)

Until I finally graduated to a Mac that didn't run Classic a few months ago, I was using some applications dating back to the mid-1980s. The idea that only Microsoft does legacy is, well, wrong.

Syrus28

Feb 10, 2009, 10:50 PM

Until I finally graduated to a Mac that didn't run Classic a few months ago, I was using some applications dating back to the mid-1980s. The idea that only Microsoft does legacy is, well, wrong.

How is this a valid comparison? He is still running FoxPro on Windows 7, while you required an out-dated OS to run legacy applications.

ashjamben

Feb 10, 2009, 10:56 PM

microsoft has the dominance in the 'office' suite and i doubt that'll change anytime soon.

and also, what's wrong with the xbox? yeah, it's made by microsoft who make a pretty lame operating system, but would you still thinks its crap if it didn't have the microsoft logo on it?

IJ Reilly

Feb 11, 2009, 01:05 AM

How is this a valid comparison? He is still running FoxPro on Windows 7, while you required an out-dated OS to run legacy applications.

A much older one, and it was under Classic. Meaning, the compatibility layer of OSX.

Either way I'd be interested to know how many circa 1992 applications run in Vista or Windows 7.

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 11, 2009, 06:33 AM

And how many applications are broken by OSX updates?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=373263

zap2

Feb 11, 2009, 10:54 AM

Also ps3 has no games.

Maybe I'd agree... in 2006

Oh and xbox360 ps3 wii iphone and zune are all made by Foxconn in the same factories somewhere in China.

Yes, but the design of the Xbox 360 is the problem(or so they say)

IJ Reilly

Feb 11, 2009, 11:16 AM

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=373263

Applications with "major issues," 25. Mostly shareware and freeware. You don't think Vista broke that many applications at least?

Pnut13

Feb 11, 2009, 11:23 AM

Yes, but the design of the Xbox 360 is the problem(or so they say)

yes the 360 is made with older parts, so that is why you get drives that scartch disks and soldering that fals off of the mother boards on them, i know a dozen people that have a 360, all are on there 2nd, most on their 3rd, my best friends bro on his 7th!!!!!

I personally think that any one is crazy for buying one, i dont like 3rd person shooters or need to play online because i have friends that play games, and i hate buying something and knowing that it will break, probably within 2 years or less.

I have a Wii and a PS3 and i am very satisfied.
The only people that seem to care are fanboys of M$

:),
Peter

chewietobbacca

Feb 11, 2009, 11:39 AM

Applications with "major issues," 25. Mostly shareware and freeware. You don't think Vista broke that many applications at least?

The thing Vista broke the most was driver-oriented since they went on a new driver model. That and the x64 version broke some old old programs, but most of those issues were resolved pretty quickly. Either way you cut it though, the large reason companies use and continue to use XP is due to its compatibility with whatever their hardware or software desires are, whereas with Apple, they would be at the whim of what hardware they dictate. When the new OS's no longer support legacy hardware, and a company wants new features, it would not want to be at the mercy of another company's dictations.

And then there's the whole realm of key licensing, slipstream customizations, etc. that companies want that Apple isn't in the business for. My point is that if Apple wants to be an integral part of enterprise, a lot of its culture would have to change, and I just don't see Apple moving away from their current direction targetted at ordinary consumers.

Maybe I'd agree... in 2006

Yes, but the design of the Xbox 360 is the problem(or so they say)

The PS3 is still lacking in titles. XBOX 360 sales have actually increased over the last year, while Sony is now in 3rd place. There is a reason for that

And the problem was cooling, which was a hardware issue. The software itself was fine - and to be fair, when you consider that this wast he first next gen console out and MS's expertise isn't in hardware, hiccups were expected. Since 65nm and new cooling has been put in, failure rates on the new ones are low.

I have a Wii and a PS3 and i am very satisfied.
The only people that seem to care are fanboys of M$

:),
Peter

I have a Wii and once the novelty wore off, I realize that I only played two games: Wii Sports, which came free with it, and Super Smash. To each their own I guess.

Your second statement though, is surely a joke. THere are plenty of people on tihs forum only who own a 360 and they surely aren't fanboys of MS so quit generalizing.

IJ Reilly

Feb 11, 2009, 11:51 AM

The thing Vista broke the most was driver-oriented since they went on a new driver model. That and the x64 version broke some old old programs, but most of those issues were resolved pretty quickly. Either way you cut it though, the large reason companies use and continue to use XP is due to its compatibility with whatever their hardware or software desires are, whereas with Apple, they would be at the whim of what hardware they dictate. When the new OS's no longer support legacy hardware, and a company wants new features, it would not want to be at the mercy of another company's dictations.

Apple has made one major change in hardware direction in recent years, the migration to x86, which obviously (to me) was more than just a "whim," and also opened up a range of new opportunities both for Apple and Apple customers. I'm also not quite following the virtue of staying with XP, which is after all eight years old. Would a similar virtue confer to sticking with OSX of the same vintage, say 10.1, if it would run on all current Mac hardware?

And then there's the whole realm of key licensing, slipstream customizations, etc. that companies want that Apple isn't in the business for. My point is that if Apple wants to be an integral part of enterprise, a lot of its culture would have to change, and I just don't see Apple moving away from their current direction targetted at ordinary consumers.

I see your point here, but I know Apple does have some fairly large corporate installations, so they must have some methods available for supporting these installations.

zap2

Feb 11, 2009, 12:17 PM

The PS3 is still lacking in titles.

All you did was restate your comment I disagreed with...here I'll list some of the great games it has

LittleBigPlanet
Warhawk
Resistance Fall of Man 1+2
MGS4
Ratchet & Clank Future: Tools of Destruction
Prince of Persia
Ninja Gaiden Sigma
Uncharted: Drake's Fortune
MotorStorm 1+2

FallOut 3
BioShock
GTA4
Rock Band 2
GH:World Tour
Devil May Cry 4

XBOX 360 sales have actually increased over the last year, while Sony is now in 3rd place. There is a reason for that

First off the PS3 has always been in 3rd, so the usage of "now" is a bit weird. And yes there is a reason, but don't fool your self into think there is just one. Price is a big factor. Online. The X360 might have better games(its a personal call), but that doesn't mean the PS3 is lacking in them

And the problem was cooling, which was a hardware issue. The software itself was fine - and to be fair, when you consider that this wast he first next gen console out and MS's expertise isn't in hardware, hiccups were expected. Since 65nm and new cooling has been put in, failure rates on the new ones are low.

I never said it was a software problem...and no, these issues were not expected. Xbox (the first) is a fine piece of hardware, and the Zune is(hardware wise) fine. Plus MS is a billion dollar company. They can get it right the first time.(I fail to see what it begin the first console out for this generation has to do with anything, unless you're saying MS rushed it, and I'd agree with that)

Syrus28

Feb 11, 2009, 07:48 PM

Eh, my opinion on the PS3 is less than stellar. Being a blu-ray player, which was supposed to be it's greatest strength, turned out to be it's worst problem. At $400, the PS3 just doesn't cut it compared to the 360...

However, software is what sells systems and is what ultimately dictates the success of a console (except for the gimmicky Wii, but I'll leave that for another discussion). Sony's selection/sales of games is less than stellar. What Sony need's is a serious system seller, which it is seriously lacking. Supporters of the PS3 likened Resistance to GoW (FAIL) while Little Big Planet, MGS4, Uncharted were all called system sellers leading up to their debut, yet none of them have shown that they earned the title. Halo 3 alone sold nearly as much as all 4 of those combined.

Contrastly, the Xbox 360's lineup is stellar and shows that Microsoft is willing to loosen up the wallet to keep it that way. It's software attachment rate is a record setting 8.1, more than the PS3 and Wii combined

Dagless

Feb 11, 2009, 08:10 PM

Just as I'm never going to buy an Apple wireless router, desktop or mouse - I'm also not going to buy a lot of MS products.

MS make very good mice. For all its initial (and continuing) faults XP is a really stable and very compatible OS. The 360 is also (IMO) the best gaming system with some brilliant online connectivity. They also make a very good quality controller - I swear it's the first PC controller that I've used for more than a few weeks.

I'm still not sold on the PS3. I know it has a rabid group of fans, just like anything else, but it just doesn't have as many good quality games as the 360 (or what they're both trying to emulate= the PC). And to top it all off it costs a hell of a lot for a lot of tech which I don't want.

macmee

Feb 11, 2009, 08:57 PM

My Microsoft hardware is great.....Vista just sucks. It's why I bought my iMac.

pimentoLoaf

Feb 12, 2009, 04:36 AM

I am writing these words on a Microsoft keyboard (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=083) and using a Microsoft mouse (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=041) to click around. Both are solid products. The keyboard feels like a keyboard should, with good travel and sculpted keys. The mouse fits comfortably in my hand and has a smooth-rolling mouse wheel and a small extra button which is programmed (by me) to return to the previous browser page.

Apple's chiclet keyboard is very hard on the fingers due to a short travel before they hit bottom. Apple's rollerball mouse clogs too easily with dust due to it's small size.

Microsoft is making products that have to work over the long haul for the very demanding business market. Apple ... doesn't.

Namnorkimo

Feb 12, 2009, 05:23 AM

"Why Do People Still Buy Microsoft?"

They do that for the same reason as in the early 90´s when Atari and Commdore made the better computers and OS:

"because nearly everyone has one"
"because I want to rework my documents at home"
"there will be a reason for why so many people use it"
"you can do so much more things with it"
...

Most of the people who told me that were not able to describe why they think so: They only told me things they have heard from others - never asking if that´s right or wrong, only believing it without any question.

opeter

Feb 12, 2009, 06:10 AM

OK, some aspects, why people still buy Microsoft's Windows OS:

1.) the most applications are made for Windows OS

2.) big companys, governments are using almost exclusive Windows OS as their main desktop OS

3.) localization of the Windows OS (the funny is, Linux is localized in ever more languages, yet it doesn't reach the 1 % desktop market share)

4.) many localized applicaitons for Windows OS

5.) solid legacy hardware and software support (aka the Serial/Com port), the whole engineering/mechanical etc. industry is still using these ports

6.) games (this is also one of the main reasonssince the Games market is constantly growing from year to year)

7.) many commercial software packages made exclusivelly for Windows desktop

acurafan

Feb 12, 2009, 06:36 AM

when Apple builds a solid core of backend Enterprise products to go along with their desktops, then i'll stop buying from Microsoft.

Sesshi

Feb 12, 2009, 09:06 AM

SpaceKitty

Feb 13, 2009, 02:03 AM

So why do the consumers still keep going back to MS after being constantly burnt by them again and again. When will people learn never to buy MS?

Who's getting burned? Nobody is forcing anyone to buy Microsoft software.
I freely bought a new laptop last July that was running Vista. I didn't get burned.

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 13, 2009, 08:57 AM

Who's getting burned? Nobody is forcing anyone to buy Microsoft software.
I freely bought a new laptop last July that was running Vista. I didn't get burned.

The people that bought the Xbox360 and had RROD's sure got burned. And yet they keep going back to MS. It's like they never learn from their past mistakes. They should just buy the much superior PS3.

I always tell people to never buy MS. Hardware or Software.

Eh, my opinion on the PS3 is less than stellar. Being a blu-ray player, which was supposed to be it's greatest strength, turned out to be it's worst problem. At $400, the PS3 just doesn't cut it compared to the 360...

However, software is what sells systems and is what ultimately dictates the success of a console (except for the gimmicky Wii, but I'll leave that for another discussion). Sony's selection/sales of games is less than stellar. What Sony need's is a serious system seller, which it is seriously lacking. Supporters of the PS3 likened Resistance to GoW (FAIL) while Little Big Planet, MGS4, Uncharted were all called system sellers leading up to their debut, yet none of them have shown that they earned the title. Halo 3 alone sold nearly as much as all 4 of those combined.

Contrastly, the Xbox 360's lineup is stellar and shows that Microsoft is willing to loosen up the wallet to keep it that way. It's software attachment rate is a record setting 8.1, more than the PS3 and Wii combined

PS3 vs Xbox 360 can be compared to Mac vs PC. Just because PCs sell more and have more software available doesn't mean they are better.

PS3s like Macs cost more but it has far better hardware and design. It has better software too. Remember like in the Macs case, it's quality vs quantity.

I am surprised people here even bother to defend Microsoft.

chewietobbacca

Feb 13, 2009, 11:25 AM

The people that bought the Xbox360 and had RROD's sure got burned. And yet they keep going back to MS. It's like they never learn from their past mistakes. They should just buy the much superior PS3.

I always tell people to never buy MS. Hardware or Software.

PS3 vs Xbox 360 can be compared to Mac vs PC. Just because PCs sell more and have more software available doesn't mean they are better.

PS3s like Macs cost more but it has far better hardware and design. It has better software too. Remember like in the Macs case, it's quality vs quantity.

I am surprised people here even bother to defend Microsoft.

You're just now trolling. If you can't stand other people's opinions, then maybe you shouldn't be on a message board asking why other people use and maybe even like those products. Do you care what other people drive for their cars too?

And MS did the right thing and extended warranties on the RROD's - and guess what, I haven't heard of anyone get refused within the time period for a RROD, which has largely decreased with the right fixes out there (which was also mostly a hardware issue, which isn't necessarily 100% MS's fault to begin with)

chagla

Feb 13, 2009, 12:49 PM

mothy

Feb 14, 2009, 06:24 AM

I am writing these words on a Microsoft keyboard (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=083) and using a Microsoft mouse (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=041) to click around. Both are solid products. The keyboard feels like a keyboard should, with good travel and sculpted keys. The mouse fits comfortably in my hand and has a smooth-rolling mouse wheel and a small extra button which is programmed (by me) to return to the previous browser page.

I agree with your statement regarding the quality of the Microsoft mouse, I have never used a Microsoft keyboard. I predominately use an IBM Model M keyboard.

I remember reading a review of the first Microsoft Mouse (yes...I am that old), the reviewer said something like this.

"IBM should be grateful that this is the only hardware Microsoft produce"

nplima

Feb 14, 2009, 08:08 AM

I am surprised people here even bother to defend Microsoft.

so you weren't actually stating a discussion here, we just misunderstood your rhetorical question? Maybe you need your own blog instead of a forum.

226896

Feb 14, 2009, 08:14 AM

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 14, 2009, 09:29 AM

As if Apple hasn't had their fair share of problems too... MobileMe launch anyone? Trackpad issues anyone? Macbook casing cracks anyone? You just sound like a fanboy.

Asking why people keep buying inferior products when there are superior alternatives on the market doesn't make one a fanboy.

PC -> Mac
Xbox -> PS3
Zune -> iPod
Windows Mobile -> iPhone

Winni

Feb 14, 2009, 11:05 AM

I am surprised by how many people still buy products from Microsoft. They make bad software and even worse hardware. Don't get me started on Windows. Their hardware is a joke. Xbox 360 RROD anyone? Zune leap year debacle anyone? PS3 and iPods are far superior.

So why do the consumers still keep going back to MS after being constantly burnt by them again and again. When will people learn never to buy MS?

People buy Microsoft because Microsoft sells the ONE AND ONLY platform that allows you to run every available software solution on it. Especially when you also use it for business purposes. That is a simple fact and usually already ends the discussion.

Why should I not get you started on Windows? In my experience, Windows performs faster and more reliable than OS X - both on the desktop AND on the server. OS X has better usability and I prefer it as my working horse because of that, but usually everything is slower than on Windows and it also has more glitches than Windows. But I am also a fan of beautiful designs, and Apple has the better graphics designers on its payroll. I also find software written for OS X easier to use and better thought out than comparable Windows counterparts, but it all comes at a higher price and usually with more restrictions.

Xbox 360: I have one and never had a single issue with it. Microsoft has an extremely generous warranty/guarantee policy, so if your Xbox fails, they will simply and without questioning give you a new one. Try that with failing Apple hardware.

The Xbox 360 also has the MUCH better hardware specifications for games. She comes with three very fast CPU cores while the PS3 comes with 9 slow cores. Games usually do NOT take advantage of multiple cores, and the result is very obviously visible when the very same game is available for both consoles: The Xbox version ALWAYS looks better. And is also more stable.

Zune: It's not available in Europe and even if it was, I wouldn't care. I have an iPod Touch and in my opinion it was the biggest waste of money. It's a shut down device that's basically good for nothing, and it's not even fun to use. The joys of using the multi-touch interface are short-lived, and when you begin to actually want to use the gadget for something, you'll quickly find out that there is nothing of any value available for it. You have to jailbreak the device to install useful software for it. Therefor: A waste of money.

Burning their customers: I bought my iPod in January 2008 and already had to pay for the January 2008 software update which was released not even a week after I had bought the iPod. Then I also had to pay for the 2.0 firmware update later that year. Now THAT is being burned by a company.

I did not have to pay for any Xbox 360 firmware updates in the same time frame, and there were quite a few, including one really big one. Guess to which company I am more sympathetic. Hint: It's not Apple.

Then Microsoft also offers full software development kits WITHOUT NDA for their gadgets free of charge. I can use C# - which, unlike Apple's Objective-C, is a widely accepted programming language - and XNA to write apps for Windows, the Xbox 360 AND the Zune. (And when I buy the third party product Unity3D, I can even use C# to program games for OS X and the iPhone/iPod Touch. The SAME programming language for ALL platforms.) And I can also leverage my C# knowledge to write software for Linux (hello Mono) or to develop that huge eCommerce website. Now THAT is an offer that is hard to refuse. And before you say it: I could not use Java for all of these platforms; there's no Java for the Xbox, the Zune, or the iPod Touch/iPhone.

So what was your question again? Why people still buy Microsoft? Because they sell useful PLATFORMS (and not just gadgets).

It's a good thing that this isn't a black and white world. 64-Bit Vista runs great on my Mac Pro, both "in Boot Camp" and in VMWare Fusion, and my Xbox 360 also communicates perfectly well with OS X Leopard.

It's not an either-or choice. Don't restrict yourself. Simply use both and take full advantage of their combined power.

IJ Reilly

Feb 14, 2009, 12:11 PM

People buy Microsoft because Microsoft sells the ONE AND ONLY platform that allows you to run every available software solution on it. Especially when you also use it for business purposes. That is a simple fact and usually already ends the discussion.

Well there you go. End of discussion.

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 14, 2009, 12:46 PM

I disagree. PS3 has much better hardware and most of the comparisons I've seen, the graphics are better on PS3 games.

I really feel like Apple users should avoid buying a Microsoft product like the Xbox. By doing so, you are doing your bit to create another Microsoft monopoly. Do you really want Microsoft to have a monopoly on both desktops and games consoles?

Don't say I didn't warn you when that happens. Right now MS is doing well due to spending lots on marketing and buying out developers. In many years time, it will be a Mac vs PC situation where inferior hardware and software dominates the market.

zap2

Feb 14, 2009, 12:49 PM

I disagree. PS3 has much better hardware and most of the comparisons I've seen, the graphics are better on PS3 games.

Well the CPU on the PS3 is better, the GPU on Xbox is better. Graphics tend to be about even according to gaming sites(and I'd agree) both have great looking games

I really feel like Apple users should avoid buying a Microsoft product like the Xbox. By doing so, you are going to create another monopoly.

Doubt it. Sony and Nintendo aren't ever going to let MS have 90% of the market. The gaming market and home computer market are very different. I'm fine with buying an MS console

aethelbert

Feb 14, 2009, 12:56 PM

I really feel like Apple users should avoid buying a Microsoft product like the Xbox.
What is this, some kind of fanboy war where we place sanctions on the "enemy" company?

Eidorian

Feb 14, 2009, 01:05 PM

It's not an either-or choice. Don't restrict yourself. Simply use both and take full advantage of their combined power.This is where I like to fall in.

I've grown rather fond of Windows Media Center and Windows Live Sync. Not to mention all of my games and a fully compatible Office.

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 14, 2009, 01:08 PM

Doubt it. Sony and Nintendo aren't ever going to let MS have 90% of the market. The gaming market and home computer market are very different. I'm fine with buying an MS console

Sony is in deep financial trouble and knowing MS they will take every opportunity to buy out developers and use illegal anti-competitive measures to gain market share and keep others from the market.

Don't trust Microsoft.

What is this, some kind of fanboy war where we place sanctions on the "enemy" company?

I wouldn't call it a fanboy war. It's just most Mac users keep whining about MS (fair enough) but don't actually do anything about it. If you want to hurt MS, hit them where it counts. Don't buy their products.

I for one am not buying anything MS, because first of all there is nothing worth buying. Their software and hardware is a joke. And secondly, if I did buy something, I would be financially supporting a monopoly.

sn00pie

Feb 14, 2009, 01:23 PM

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 14, 2009, 01:28 PM

As far as consoles go, the PS3 is a superior product in terms with the X360. The multimedia capabilities of the PS3 are endless and its easily the best component in my home theatre.

Not to mention there are some absolutely stunning games on the console. (KZ2, GT5:P, MGS4)

Finally a sane mac user with values! PS3 might be more expensive, but it has better hardware and better features. The premium is well worth it. Congrats for not buying into the MS marketing.

IJ Reilly

Feb 14, 2009, 01:30 PM

I wouldn't call it a fanboy war. It's just most Mac users keep whining about MS (fair enough) but don't actually do anything about it. If you want to hurt MS, hit them where it counts. Don't buy their products.

I for one am not buying anything MS, because first of all there is nothing worth buying. Their software and hardware is a joke. And secondly, if I did buy something, I would be financially supporting a monopoly.

I advocated this concept for many years but I think it's becoming progressively less relevant in the current marketplace. Microsoft has not proven an ability to successfully leverage Windows into new markets for quite some time, they are watched very closely by regulatory agencies when they try, and their forays into new product markets have been essentially unsuccessful. I don't worry about Microsoft nearly as much as I did ten years ago.

As for the "fanboy war," I think the use of this word should be banned from discussions on this forum, in the same way as the use of other insults are banned. Calling someone a "fanboy" is not an argument, it is a complete lack of an argument. Calling someone a fanboy is an effort to be dismissive of what someone is saying, without actually responding to their points in any substantial way. This no better than calling someone an idiot. It is a miserable excuse for an argument. Insults are childish and needlessly provocative -- and for that reason, not allowed here.

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 14, 2009, 01:35 PM

dukebound85

Feb 14, 2009, 01:40 PM

I wouldn't call it a fanboy war. It's just most Mac users keep whining about MS (fair enough) but don't actually do anything about it. If you want to hurt MS, hit them where it counts. Don't buy their products.

I for one am not buying anything MS, because first of all there is nothing worth buying. Their software and hardware is a joke. And secondly, if I did buy something, I would be financially supporting a monopoly.

ok you have made that point clear and everyone pretty much disagrees with you

once again, if you dont want it, dont buy it

you arent gonna make me not stop buying what i believe is the better solution....and yes, it may be from MS

why do you keep resaying the same thing each and everytime? that is what im curious about

most of us do not want to hurt MS an any way. whats the point? i mean seriously. why the hate towards MS? they offer great products. just some people hate MS for any reason I guess.

why is there this notion if you like apple, you MUST hate MS? seriously. this is getting old and tiresome

zap2

Feb 14, 2009, 01:42 PM

Sony is in deep financial trouble and knowing MS they will take every opportunity to buy out developers and use illegal anti-competitive measures to gain market share and keep others from the market.

Don't trust Microsoft.
.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sony is having some rough times, but MS isn't going to be able to buy up every developer out there. And you know, you kinda ignore Nintendo!

It's just most Mac users keep whining about MS (fair enough) but don't actually do anything about it..

I'd say a minority of Mac users whine about Microsoft. Many have come to terms with MS

I would be financially supporting a monopoly.

Well what you should have done is buy an Xbox 360 when it first came out, since then MS loses money. :p

Oh, and I don't think the public is brainwashed when it comes to Xbox 360+Xbox...people just follow good games, and the Xbox 360 has some

IJ Reilly

Feb 14, 2009, 01:47 PM

I disagree. MS isn't leveraging Windows here. They've entered a brand new market and due to marketing and buying out developers they've managed to sell a lot of consoles to brainwashed public.

They still don't have a monopoly in consoles, so they don't have to abide by competition laws. But once they get there there is no stopping them as we've seen in the case of Windows.

The Xbox is not Windows. For one, it has only just recently become a profitable product for Microsoft, and still probably hasn't covered all of the sunk costs, so really it's a net loser. Second, it's a game console. I know the gamers will get all over me for this, but come on people, this is games we're talking about. Not very important in the vast scheme of things. Third, they have two, strong competitors in the game console market that aren't going to roll over. The fact is, Microsoft has a very tough fight on their hands in the game console market and is in no danger of monopolizing it.

That's why we as Apple users have to tread very carefully. We have to think of the future and not buy anything from monopolies that makes our rivals even stronger.

Stop just whining about MS and talk with your wallet. Don't buy Windows, don't buy any of their crappy hardware like the Xbox.

Our rivals? That's a pretty odd concept, even to me, an Apple customer for 25 years and an Apple stockholder. My "support" for any company is constantly contingent on them selling products that meet my needs. But yes, by all means, vote with your money. I don't buy Microsoft products because I simply do not care for them. That's the metric that matters.

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 14, 2009, 01:55 PM

The Xbox is not Windows. For one, it has only just recently become a profitable product for Microsoft, and still probably hasn't covered all of the sunk costs, so really it's a net loser. Second, it's a game console. I know the gamers will get all over me for this, but come on people, this is games we're talking about. Not very important in the vast scheme of things. Third, they have two, strong competitors in the game console market that aren't going to roll over. The fact is, Microsoft has a very tough fight on their hands in the game console market and is in no danger of monopolizing it.

That's what you think now and that's what people thought was Apple was still a force in a desktop back in the days. Complacency like this hurts the Mac community.

They have two strong competitors now, but like Windows they will use every measure possible to dominate the market. Sony is losing big time with the PS3 even though it's a much better machine. Nintendo Wii has lost it's novelty and I doubt they will come up with anything as revolutionary.

Microsoft has the funds (given by YOU, mac users who bought Xbox) to release the next gen console earlier with better marketing thus driving down sales of Sony's next gen console even more. And the circle starts again.

Don't buy MS period.

bartelby

Feb 14, 2009, 01:58 PM

Don't buy MS period.

That alone makes me want to buy more MS products...

ziggyonice

Feb 14, 2009, 01:59 PM

People still buy Microsoft because they're *just* starting to know anything better. Many individuals are finally starting to hear about the Mac and they're actually considering switching over. But for those who haven't yet, or for those who are too focused on the "dark days" of Apple, they still buy Microsoft.

Give them all more time. Things will change eventually.

dukebound85

Feb 14, 2009, 02:00 PM

They have two strong competitors now, but like Windows they will use every measure possible to dominate the market. Sony is losing big time with the PS3 even though it's a much better machine. Nintendo Wii has lost it's novelty and I doubt they will come up with anything as revolutionary.

sony is losing because they made a console cost 600 at launch a year after the 360. thats their mistake. sony still sells a crap load of ps2 you know right?

i still cant find a wii to buy in stores...whats that tell you

Microsoft has the funds (given by YOU, mac users who bought Xbox) to release the next gen console earlier with better marketing thus driving down sales of Sony's next gen console even more. And the circle starts again.

Don't buy MS period.

who cares? if MS has a sweet game system, i WILL buy it

why the hate? seriously

Eidorian

Feb 14, 2009, 02:00 PM

That alone makes me want to buy more MS products...I did it for you. I just bought an OEM copy of Vista Home Premium for a machine I'm building. :D

Primejimbo

Feb 14, 2009, 02:01 PM

That alone makes me want to buy more MS products...

I said in another thread, if all Mac users were like the OP I would never have switched. Now I see why I have friends who think all Mac users are all stuck up and they feel that Mac users feel they are better people.

zap2

Feb 14, 2009, 02:04 PM

That's what you think now and that's what people thought was Apple was still a force in a desktop back in the days. Complacency like this hurts the Mac community.

They have two strong competitors now, but like Windows they will use every measure possible to dominate the market. Sony is losing big time with the PS3 even though it's a much better machine. Nintendo Wii has lost it's novelty and I doubt they will come up with anything as revolutionary.

Microsoft has the funds (given by YOU, mac users who bought Xbox) to release the next gen console earlier with better marketing thus driving down sales of Sony's next gen console even more. And the circle starts again.

Don't buy MS period.
:rolleyes:

Good, I wasn't aware we were at war, and had signed on to a side for life!

I buy products if they are good. Apple has the computer experience I want, and MS/Sony/Nintendo all have the games I want, so I buy them

Primejimbo

Feb 14, 2009, 02:04 PM

sony is losing because they made a console cost 600 at launch a year after the 360. thats their mistake. sony still sells a crap load of ps2 you know right?

i still cant find a wii to buy in stores...whats that tell you

who cares? if MS has a sweet game system, i WILL buy it

why the hate? seriously

It took us WEEKS to finally a Wii system last December, but we finally found one so the demand is just as high as it 1st came out.

bartelby

Feb 14, 2009, 02:06 PM

I did it for you. I just bought an OEM copy of Vista Home Premium for a machine I'm building. :D

Awesome!

Thanks
:)

I said in another thread, if all Mac users were like the OP I would never have switched. Now I see why I have friends who think all Mac users are all stuck up and they feel that Mac users feel they are better people.

People who rant about how bad MS is get me down as much as people who rant about how bad Apple is...

I have no time for either...

IJ Reilly

Feb 14, 2009, 02:06 PM

That's what you think now and that's what people thought was Apple was still a force in a desktop back in the days. Complacency like this hurts the Mac community.

I've never been accused of complacency, so that accusation goes nowhere. But you do need a better understanding of how Microsoft achieved its dominance in operating systems. In short, it was an enormous historical fluke. It won't be repeated. This occurred before the Mac was even on the scene. Microsoft's illegal activities were related to their exploitation (leveraging) of their existing market power and their protection of that market power in operating systems. These are powers they lack in any other market, and they have thus far failed to make much more than a dent in any other market no matter how much cash they have poured into it. Sony and Nintendo are fully capable of competing with Microsoft in the game console market. There's simply no evidence to suggest otherwise.

nick9191

Feb 14, 2009, 02:07 PM

Sony is the biggest hardware Nazi of them all. Avoiding Microsoft and buying Sony instead is a ridiculous argument, and would only come from someone who had no knowledge of either company.

Primejimbo

Feb 14, 2009, 02:35 PM

I hope friends of mine who want to switch to Mac don't read this thread or the other one what was started by this person.

sn00pie

Feb 14, 2009, 03:07 PM

I did fall into the Wii marketing though...I've used it about 5 times since purchasing it 5 months ago. While I use my PS3 on a daily basis. :)

Primejimbo

Feb 14, 2009, 03:20 PM

I did fall into the Wii marketing though...I've used it about 5 times since purchasing it 5 months ago. While I use my PS3 on a daily basis. :)

I love Wii, and it's the only game system I have next to my original Nintendo lol

ravenousllama

Feb 15, 2009, 12:03 AM

has anyone ever considered that if apple was the market leader instead of microsoft, people would be saying the same thing about apple?

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 15, 2009, 06:47 AM

has anyone ever considered that if apple was the market leader instead of microsoft, people would be saying the same thing about apple?

Not really, because Apple actually makes good products that people want rather than making bad hardware like XBox360 and relying on marketing and hype to sell their products.

Apple has the best customer service on top of that as well. The world would be a better place if Apple was the market leader.

The only thing stopping this is all these people even Mac users, buying flawed MS products like the Xbox360.

dukebound85

Feb 15, 2009, 09:43 AM

Not really, because Apple actually makes good products that people want rather than making bad hardware like XBox360 and relying on marketing and hype to sell their products.

Apple has the best customer service on top of that as well. The world would be a better place if Apple was the market leader.

The only thing stopping this is all these people even Mac users, buying flawed MS products like the Xbox360.

ive had many issues with my mb and iphone

there are many more issues apple has as well

apple is far from perfect lol

or do you just choose not to see that?

djellison

Feb 15, 2009, 10:07 AM

When will people learn never to buy MS?

When it no longer does the job it needs to do. XP does the job for me - I continue to buy copies of XP at work for new workstations. I also continue to use Office 2007 and Office 2008.

You would have to be monumentally stupid to think that XP and Vista are not adequate for office useage. They do the job. They do the job far far cheaper than even the cheapest Mac does.

Doug

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 15, 2009, 10:09 AM

When it no longer does the job it needs to do. XP does the job for me - I continue to buy copies of XP at work for new workstations. I also continue to use Office 2007 and Office 2008.

You would have to be monumentally stupid to think that XP and Vista are not adequate for office useage. They do the job. They do the job far far cheaper than even the cheapest Mac does.

Doug

It's attitude like that, that's going to bring down Macs. "It just does the job". When you pay money for something, you want perfection. Not just something "that just does the job". Apple Mac is the perfection.

Everything you can do on XP and Vista you can do on Macs. You can do them faster and have more fun doing so.

dukebound85

Feb 15, 2009, 10:13 AM

It's attitude like that, that's going to bring down Macs. "It just does the job". When you pay money for something, you want perfection. Not just something "that just does the job". Apple Mac is the perfection.

perfection? lol in what way? if it does the job, it does the job. what type of perfection are you talking about? im utterly confused

stop spouting your opinion off as fact as it simply is not true

Everything you can do on XP and Vista you can do on Macs. You can do them faster and have more fun doing so.

oh really? explain how i cant run ProE/mathcad, Fluent, labview and pretty much every other engineering program out there on my mac:rolleyes:
before you even attempt to make that argument, try and make sure you are right

do it faster? sorry, xp flies on my same system compared to osx. more fun? depends on the user.

i think you are looking for other people like emeek on here and sorry, just because we are on a mac board, doesnt mean we are fanatic about macs and hate everything MS

djellison

Feb 15, 2009, 11:22 AM

Everything you can do on XP and Vista you can do on Macs. .

No - you can't. There are pieces of software out there that are XP only. Furthermore, and most importantly, Mac's are expensive. On Xp - I can have an office PC built, with an OS, monitor, keyboard, mouse,for <£300.

You can't do that with a Mac. In an office with 1000 workstations, we're talking savings of hundreds of thousands of pounds. And whilst, for some people, Mac's are nicer to use - for the vast majority of people, it doesn't matter. XP is not better or worse than OSX for Email and Office apps. Infact, I would argue it is worse given the dreadful Office 2008. Furthermore, given the support infrastructure, training background etc - switching to OSX for 90% of XP users is simply not going to happen.

It's attitudes like yours that make the world of Apple so hated by outsiders. That, along with the barrier price to entry for the enterprise market, are the two biggest reasons Apple have not reached a more significant portion of the market.

I'm not sure what world you live in - but it's not the real one.

Primejimbo

Feb 15, 2009, 01:41 PM

Everything you can do on XP and Vista you can do on Macs. You can do them faster and have more fun doing so.
I have many programs for work that sadly that will not work on a Mac (and probably never will). if everything thing you could do on a PC you could do on a Mac, why do people use bootcamp?

It's attitudes like yours that make the world of Apple so hated by outsiders. That, along with the barrier price to entry for the enterprise market, are the two biggest reasons Apple have not reached a more significant portion of the market.

I'm not sure what world you live in - but it's not the real one.

I couldn't agree with you more!!

JonMcDonald

Feb 15, 2009, 01:59 PM

AppleMacTheBest

Feb 15, 2009, 02:04 PM

What? Someone actually bought a Zune?

You should really help him out. Show him some Apple products.

Primejimbo

Feb 15, 2009, 02:17 PM

People still buy Microsoft because they develop some good products. My friend has a Zune. I don't like it as much, but I can say that I was impressed by it when playing around with it. Windows 7 is rumored to be incredible. Vista got off to a very bumpy start, but was a decent OS (doesn't compare to OS X, but that's a different story).

I think that Microsoft makes good products, for less. I think Apple makes great products for more. I prefer great, but for people just browsing the internet, I don't know if Mac is totally perfect for them!

A friend of mine also has a Zune also, and it's not a bad MP3 player at all. I though about getting 1 also at 1 time. The only reason why the Ipod won was my wife had one and I wanted to get an Ipod ready car radio. If I got a Zune I would have to get 2 hooks up or use the earphone jacks to play them in the car radio. I am very happy with the Ipod, but the Zune isn't bad at all.

JonMcDonald

Feb 15, 2009, 03:28 PM

What? Someone actually bought a Zune?

You should really help him out. Show him some Apple products.

He's seen Apple products. I guess they didn't suit him. I love Apple products. Apple products aren't for everyone, however. He likes the Zune, he earned the money, and he's very happy with how he spent it. That's all that matters!

ravenousllama

Feb 15, 2009, 04:40 PM

People still buy Microsoft because they develop some good products. My friend has a Zune. I don't like it as much, but I can say that I was impressed by it when playing around with it.

yeah, the zune is pretty neat. i would buy one, but i can't bring myself to not use itunes :D

Eidorian

Feb 15, 2009, 04:50 PM

What? Someone actually bought a Zune?

You should really help him out. Show him some Apple products.The Zune player has a surprisingly friendly interface and layout. The Zune software while encountering some growing pains has really begun to shine in its latest version. There are many depths of organization and it's rather easy to get ahold of track data even if it's something esoteric. No account needed either...

I'd have a Zune right now if Microsoft shipped an OS X version of the software and it didn't try to mangle my ID3 tags in its own way.

Then again I don't want to imagine what would happen to you if you tried to use it.

NovemberMike

Feb 16, 2009, 01:32 AM

What? Someone actually bought a Zune?

You should really help him out. Show him some Apple products.

Zunes actually have fairly significantly better audio quality than iPods (coming from friends who care about that stuff).

The main reason people use windows is because MS supports it forever. People are talking about Apple getting rid of support for 3 year old PPC machines while Microsoft is still putting out security updates for a 9 year old OS. In the business world where companies might not update for 10+ years on key systems, this kind of service is important.

sn00pie

Feb 16, 2009, 02:44 PM

has anyone ever considered that if apple was the market leader instead of microsoft, people would be saying the same thing about apple?

Yes, and infact that is why I'm quite happy with where Apple is right now. The last thing I want in the world is for Apple to take over Microsoft's position.

Apple wants to increase market share, so they continue to pump out great products after products. If they were #1, there wouldn't be that willingness to continue to make excellent products.

Syrus28

Feb 16, 2009, 04:39 PM

I advocated this concept for many years but I think it's becoming progressively less relevant in the current marketplace. Microsoft has not proven an ability to successfully leverage Windows into new markets for quite some time, they are watched very closely by regulatory agencies when they try, and their forays into new product markets have been essentially unsuccessful. I don't worry about Microsoft nearly as much as I did ten years ago.
Honestly, I find this funny. You advocated for Mac users to universally stop buying Microsoft products? Really? You had nothing better to do? This, along with the fact that you "worry" about Microsoft shows the quite paranoid and egotistical attitude about Microsoft/Apple some people possess. I swear Fanboys (or Mac Zealots if you prefer ;)) worry more about Microsoft than the people at Microsoft do. Too many people on this forums, notably AppleMacTheBest, are caught up with some childish mentality concerning the existence and competition of Apple and Microsoft.

As for the "fanboy war," I think the use of this word should be banned from discussions on this forum, in the same way as the use of other insults are banned. Calling someone a "fanboy" is not an argument, it is a complete lack of an argument. Calling someone a fanboy is an effort to be dismissive of what someone is saying, without actually responding to their points in any substantial way. This no better than calling someone an idiot. It is a miserable excuse for an argument. Insults are childish and needlessly provocative -- and for that reason, not allowed here.
Fanboy - a term used to describe an individual who is devoted to a single subject in an emotional or fanatical manner, or to a single point of view within that subject, often to the point where it is considered an obsession.

Really? That, truthfully, is the perfect way to describe some people on these forums. Unlike "idiot" or other insults, it doesn't degrade another person, but provides a quite accurate way of describing people. Honestly, I couldn't think of a better word to describe some people on these forums (although I choose not to). To each his own I guess...:D

I've never been accused of complacency, so that accusation goes nowhere. But you do need a better understanding of how Microsoft achieved its dominance in operating systems. In short, it was an enormous historical fluke. It won't be repeated. This occurred before the Mac was even on the scene. Microsoft's illegal activities were related to their exploitation (leveraging) of their existing market power and their protection of that market power in operating systems. These are powers they lack in any other market, and they have thus far failed to make much more than a dent in any other market no matter how much cash they have poured into it. Sony and Nintendo are fully capable of competing with Microsoft in the game console market. There's simply no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Ok, none of Microsoft's products have reached the market-share and profits of Windows. Big deal, what has? Besides Oil, there's not another product on the face of the earth as profitable as Microsoft Windows. Lastly, I wouldn't call Windows Mobile and the Xbox "dent's". While they may not be leading their industries, they both play major roles respectively. Truthfully, you need to work on your definition of "success". Success is accomplishment of a goal relative to their industry. Not everything has to fall back on comparison to Windows. (Or EVERYTHING would be a failure)

------
Bottom Line:
Microsoft's failure is [B]NOT a requirement of Apple's success, and vice-versa.

Don't want to use Microsoft stuff? That's a personal preference - not a cause to hate. Don't be sucked in to the latest Hate Fad™.

Pnut13

Feb 16, 2009, 05:04 PM

ive had many issues with my mb and iphone

there are many more issues apple has as well

apple is far from perfect lol

or do you just choose not to see that?
I am not agreeing with AppleMActhe Best but Apple has had issues but not as many and not as wide spread. Wiis and PS3 have the average of 2-4% failure rates and the MS 360 has been significatly higher 16-32% of all units sold. I never heard of any Apple computer or hardware product fail at that rate, i could be wrong

IJ Reilly

Feb 16, 2009, 05:34 PM

Honestly, I find this funny. You advocated for Mac users to universally stop buying Microsoft products? Really? You had nothing better to do? This, along with the fact that you "worry" about Microsoft shows the quite paranoid and egotistical attitude about Microsoft/Apple some people possess. I swear Fanboys (or Mac Zealots if you prefer ;)) worry more about Microsoft than the people at Microsoft do. Too many people on this forums, notably AppleMacTheBest, are caught up with some childish mentality concerning the existence and competition of Apple and Microsoft.

This is a quite a convoluted bit of reasoning, but if you must know, as a theoretical position I advocated that nobody buy Microsoft products, as a way of thinking in terms of alternatives to Microsoft products at a time when almost nobody was. In fact I was one of the most prominent "anti-Microsoft" people on the net for some time. I retired from that field of battle years ago, after the antitrust cases against Microsoft restricted their abilities to restrain trade, and after it became so painfully obvious that without these methods they were going to struggle with marketing new products. Apple's resurgence only iced the cake. So I no longer worry about Microsoft. I now find them more comical than dangerous.

So in your paranoid and egotistical terms, I had nothing better to do. If you say so, it must right.

In any case, for my current thinking on this issue, you might want to re-read what I wrote. Might help if you were responding to that, instead of some imagined person saying some conveniently imagined things.

Fanboy - a term used to describe an individual who is devoted to a single subject in an emotional or fanatical manner, or to a single point of view within that subject, often to the point where it is considered an obsession.

Really? That, truthfully, is the perfect way to describe some people on these forums. Unlike "idiot" or other insults, it doesn't degrade another person, but provides a quite accurate way of describing people. Honestly, I couldn't think of a better word to describe some people on these forums (although I choose not to). To each his own I guess...:D

Really. Yes, it seems we do have to explain over and over again what it means to have an honest debate. An honest debate is to respond to an argument with an argument. Name calling is just name calling. It's a cover for the likely fact that you have no argument to make.

Ok, none of Microsoft's products have reached the market-share and profits of Windows. Big deal, what has? Besides Oil, there's not another product on the face of the earth as profitable as Microsoft Windows. Lastly, I wouldn't call Windows Mobile and the Xbox "dent's". While they may not be leading their industries, they both play [B]major roles respectively. Truthfully, you need to work on your definition of "success". Success is accomplishment of a goal relative to their industry. Not everything has to fall back on comparison to Windows. (Or EVERYTHING would be a failure)

I'm not going to repeat everything I've said already, but the point in general is that Microsoft has had great difficulty with creating profitable products outside of operating systems and software. You may not believe that profits matter in business, but if that's your view, then I suggest that you consider a career in government.

Syrus28

Feb 16, 2009, 06:46 PM

This is a quite a convoluted bit of reasoning, but if you must know, as a theoretical position I advocated that nobody buy Microsoft products, as a way of thinking in terms of alternatives to Microsoft products at a time when almost nobody was. In fact I was one of the most prominent "anti-Microsoft" people on the net for some time. I retired from that field of battle years ago, after the antitrust cases against Microsoft restricted their abilities to restrain trade, and after it became so painfully obvious that without these methods they were going to struggle with marketing new products. Apple's resurgence only iced the cake. So I no longer worry about Microsoft. I now find them more comical than dangerous.
If that's the case, it seems your retirement was premature then. Microsoft is posting record profits, all while becoming a household name with the presence of the Xbox, Zune, WinMo, and computer hardware. It seems Microsoft is more "dangerous" than ever. :D

So in your paranoid and egotistical terms, I had nothing better to do. If you say so, it must right.
Actually, that was referring to others on this forum. Your one of the more sensible ones around here.

In any case, for my current thinking on this issue, you might want to re-read what I wrote. Might help if you were responding to that, instead of some imagined person saying some conveniently imagined things.
Imagined? What did I respond to that was imagined?

Really. Yes, it seems we do have to explain over and over again what it means to have an honest debate. An honest debate is to respond to an argument with an argument. Name calling is just name calling. It's a cover for the likely fact that you have no argument to make.
I agree, it's not an argument. That's why I don't use it. However, I can't help but think its a damn accurate way to describe some people on these forums.

I'm not going to repeat everything I've said already, but the point in general is that Microsoft has had great difficulty with creating profitable products outside of operating systems and software. You may not believe that profits matter in business, but if that's your view, then I suggest that you consider a career in government.
Oh, that's a story. "World's Largest Software Company Has Trouble Outside of Software". Besides, Microsoft's only non-software division, the E&D Division, which is, in fact, profitable.

Microsoft knew it would have to invest heavily to expand into other markets. And guess what? It did, and now it's profitable. The Xbox is a household name, the Zune is a nice alternative to the iPod, and they are the 2nd largest computer hardware maker. Is that not success?

IJ Reilly

Feb 16, 2009, 07:06 PM

Syrus28

Feb 16, 2009, 07:26 PM

Microsoft's profits are not an indicator of whether they are "dangerous." What I was concerned about for years was their ability to decide winners and losers and to control the direction of technology, and the illegal means they employed to do so. They don't have much of that power any longer, and they have indeed flailed around for a direction outside of their core markets.
That's an awful broad statement there, and I can't help but think your overemphasizing the power Microsoft possessed. Examples?

If Apple bought their way into new markets with the "plan" of losing money for years in the hopes of making a profit some day, then I don't think you or anyone else would be so impressed or calling it a great success even if they managed to get to profits. But this is exactly what Microsoft is doing.When Apple enters the gaming market, we can compare. There's an unnatural amount of brand loyalty involved (much like Macs vs PC) and Microsoft wasn't going to get anywhere without being competitive.

Microsoft was a fresh entrance to the gaming market, planning to bringing something innovative (hard drive and Xbox Live). To compete against the PS2, however, it would also have to compete with the price. So they sold it at a loss with hopes for increased marketshare.

Not as much brand loyalty involved with Phones, with people switching to the latest and greatest every two years.
Apple was a fresh entrance to the mobile phone market, bringing multi-touch and a great UI. No phone at the time was nearly as attractive as the iPhone, and they priced it at $600 so they can keep margins up.

Rodimus Prime

Feb 16, 2009, 07:29 PM

Microsoft's profits are not an indicator of whether they are "dangerous." What I was concerned about for years was their ability to decide winners and losers and to control the direction of technology, and the illegal means they employed to do so. They don't have much of that power any longer, and they have indeed flailed around for a direction outside of their core markets. If Apple bought their way into new markets with the "plan" of losing money for years in the hopes of making a profit some day, then I don't think you or anyone else would be so impressed or calling it a great success even if they managed to get to profits. But this is exactly what Microsoft is doing.

The counter to that on things like the Xbox for example is it could be argue Microsoft is looking long term. Like 10-15 years down the road and not just in 1-2 years time but really long term with those moves.

People bashed Microsoft for the Xbox project when they began. They even anounced they never intended for the orginal Xbox ever break even. It was made to get into the market. The 360 in a given year has made money for them. Hell Microsoft did play pretty smart seeing computers going to be media centers.

Today it is not uncomon to see homes with 2-3 computers as they get replaced. The media center computer is quite often an older computer that does not have as much uses. I plan on turning my PC when I replace it in the next year or so to a media center box. Not like it takes much processing power to play movies or DVDs that is streamed to the TV.

Syrus28

Feb 16, 2009, 07:46 PM

^^

That's true too. Microsoft and Apple's philosophies are very different. The vast difference in beliefs of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates no doubt play a role.

Bill Gates wanted to put a computer running Microsoft software in every home. He retired from a day-to-day working at Microsoft to run his charity foundation. Microsoft seems to take Bill's approach, with the "money no object" and focus on marketshare with plans to make it profitable later. They spend now, profit later. They believe by increasing their marketshare, they will profit immensely once they increase their margins. They seem to be more about the long-term.

Steve wanted to make a sexy, innovative product to sell. He started charity in the 1980s, but gave it up once he discovered how time-consuming such business can be. Apple takes his approach, very conservative on how they spend money. They will trade market-share for profitability. They prefer to increase their marketshare AFTER becoming profitable. They are very focused on the present.

Which one's business strategy pay's off in the end will be interesting, no doubt.

kabunaru

Feb 16, 2009, 07:55 PM

Q: Why do people still buy Microsoft?
A: Because Microsoft still dominates the field.

As simple as that.

EmperorDarius

Feb 17, 2009, 12:19 AM

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/20136/

IJ Reilly

Feb 17, 2009, 12:40 AM

That's an awful broad statement there, and I can't help but think your overemphasizing the power Microsoft possessed. Examples?

Not in the slightest. Look up U.S. v. Microsoft. Please don't make me explain ten years worth of complex and detailed history. The wikipedia article on the case is a start.

It amazes me that I can still find people who will argue this point, after all that has happened and all that has been written about Microsoft's multiple losing encounters with the law.

When Apple enters the gaming market, we can compare.

What about when Microsoft enters the digital music player market, as they also have, and lost money? Can we compare then, or is that an unfair comparison because it's also true?

The counter to that on things like the Xbox for example is it could be argue Microsoft is looking long term. Like 10-15 years down the road and not just in 1-2 years time but really long term with those moves.

People bashed Microsoft for the Xbox project when they began. They even anounced they never intended for the orginal Xbox ever break even. It was made to get into the market. The 360 in a given year has made money for them. Hell Microsoft did play pretty smart seeing computers going to be media centers.

Today it is not uncomon to see homes with 2-3 computers as they get replaced. The media center computer is quite often an older computer that does not have as much uses. I plan on turning my PC when I replace it in the next year or so to a media center box. Not like it takes much processing power to play movies or DVDs that is streamed to the TV.

I am not bashing the Xbox. I am simply reporting that they have lost money on it, that they entered this market with the intention of losing money on it for an unknown period of time. I am pointing out that if Apple did the same, that they would have been branded as a failure by the same people who defend Microsoft's efforts to make money on a new product but lose money instead.

FX120

Feb 17, 2009, 01:04 AM

I am not bashing the Xbox. I am simply reporting that they have lost money on it, that they entered this market with the intention of losing money on it for an unknown period of time. I am pointing out that if Apple did the same, that they would have been branded as a failure by the same people who defend Microsoft's efforts to make money on a new product but lose money instead.

The XBOX is more than just hardware to Microsoft, and no, I am not talking about market share.

Microsoft also makes TONS of money on accessories, and software for the console, in fact this is what has allowed them not to feel the 1+ billion dollars of repair costs for the 360, and allow the E&D devision to still post good profits. Much like cell cariers take a hit on cell phones to get you into a contract, Microsoft knows that if you buy a 360 and they loose a few bucks then, they'll easily make it up later. There is this confusion that Microsoft entered the gaming market to loose money, and this is simply not the case as the 360 as a platfom and a product for Microsoft would have been profitable from day one if it wasn't for the gigantic repair program.

IJ Reilly

Feb 17, 2009, 01:22 AM

The XBOX is more than just hardware to Microsoft, and no, I am not talking about market share.

Microsoft also makes TONS of money on accessories, and software for the console, in fact this is what has allowed them not to feel the 1+ billion dollars of repair costs for the 360, and allow the E&D devision to still post good profits. Much like cell cariers take a hit on cell phones to get you into a contract, Microsoft knows that if you buy a 360 and they loose a few bucks then, they'll easily make it up later. There is this confusion that Microsoft entered the gaming market to loose money, and this is simply not the case as the 360 as a platfom and a product for Microsoft would have been profitable from day one if it wasn't for the gigantic repair program.

It had better be more than hardware, since they lose money on hardware. But then so do Nintendo and Sony. No, the point is the Xbox division has only recently begun to post quarterly profits, and this is after years of losses. They've got quite a hole to dig themselves out of, and it will take years. This was forecasted at the very beginning of the Xbox program, btw. So some of us at least are not surprised.

But again, the very simple point I am making here is that Apple could not attempt this kind of strategy without being branded as a failure. All of Apple's new products are expected to be profitable right out of the box, in fact very very profitable, or they will be seen to have failed. Nobody, at least not anybody outside of Apple, would be defending their "long term strategy" if the iPod or the iPhone had lost money for years on end.

Completely different standards of success apply to these two companies. When Microsoft tries something new, everyone looks high and low for signs that they will succeed, because that's what the conventional wisdom dictates will happen. For the same reason, when Apple tries something, everyone looks high and low for signs that they will fail. It's been that way -- forever.

Rodimus Prime

Feb 17, 2009, 02:21 AM

It had better be more than hardware, since they lose money on hardware. But then so do Nintendo and Sony. No, the point is the Xbox division has only recently begun to post quarterly profits, and this is after years of losses. They've got quite a hole to dig themselves out of, and it will take years. This was forecasted at the very beginning of the Xbox program, btw. So some of us at least are not surprised.

But again, the very simple point I am making here is that Apple could not attempt this kind of strategy without being branded as a failure. All of Apple's new products are expected to be profitable right out of the box, in fact very very profitable, or they will be seen to have failed. Nobody, at least not anybody outside of Apple, would be defending their "long term strategy" if the iPod or the iPhone had lost money for years on end.

Completely different standards of success apply to these two companies. When Microsoft tries something new, everyone looks high and low for signs that they will succeed, because that's what the conventional wisdom dictates will happen. For the same reason, when Apple tries something, everyone looks high and low for signs that they will fail. It's been that way -- forever.

I think part of that problem with apple is they brought it on themselves on how they over hype everything. They brag about doing all this stuff and making money right out of the box. This prevents them from making a long term move and investment that does not turn a profit right out of the box, even if in the long run it is a much better idea.

IJ Reilly

Feb 17, 2009, 11:44 AM

I think part of that problem with apple is they brought it on themselves on how they over hype everything. They brag about doing all this stuff and making money right out of the box. This prevents them from making a long term move and investment that does not turn a profit right out of the box, even if in the long run it is a much better idea.

Microsoft's marketing efforts may stink, but that doesn't suggest that Apple should get with the program and make theirs stink just as much.

Really, you are just illustrating my point. Of course Apple should make money on new products right away. This is called "a success." The difference is that Apple is expected to be "a success" with every new product they release, where in Microsoft's case, losing money isn't called "a failure," it's called "a strategy." Apparently you believe this as well.

It's far from clear to me what sort of "long term move" you think Apple ought to be making. Their last two new products were huge hits that were not only massively profitable, but redefined their categories. Apple stands to reap the benefits for years to come. If that's not a "long term move" then I guess I don't know what is.

natatos

Mar 2, 2009, 11:53 PM

my mom got a dell because it can run the same software as her work

rajalot

Mar 3, 2009, 06:53 AM

Simply because Microsoft does make good products. If Linux were good, everyone would be using that one, but it isn't. Even when it's free less than 1% use it! Then there is this price/performance ratio between PC & Mac and even more importantly PC's are way more future proof. Let me clarify!
This is a computer I'm going to build in next ~2 months:
- Antec Sonata III
- 500W Netzteil in Gehäuse eingebaut
- AMD Phenom II 720 BE
- Asus M4A78T-E AM3 790GX
- Samsung Spinpoint F1 1TB
- A-Data 2x2Gt DDR3 1333MHz
- Ati Radeon HD 4850 PCIE 512MB

That costs under 700€ and has potential for CrossfireX, 16GB of DDR3 RAM, 6 SATAII HDD's and more - if needed. I assume that Socket AM3 will last as long as AM2 did, so I can upgrade it's processor for at least the next 5 years and graph card for at least the same duration. Then there is this overclocking potential, which means 0-cost performance improvement easily. And if that isn't enough, I can still spare my display if I need to build a new system, my current 17" Hyundai is 5 years old and perfectly fine. Operating system will move, too. Mac is too limiting in all those regards, even mac pro's.

Then if I don't aim for enthuastic and the most future proof segment it's possible to build Intel Atom based mini-PC that runs XP just fine for less than 300€ with 1TB of space.

Windows is way more flexible, that's why Mac's will not take over it. Ever. No matter how advanced or easy-to-use. Or at least for so long as Jobs is running the place and keeping the stupid vertical integration with stupid ObjC dev tools.

Dagless

Mar 3, 2009, 07:36 AM

Wiis and PS3 have the average of 2-4% failure rates and the MS 360 has been significatly higher 16-32% of all units sold. I never heard of any Apple computer or hardware product fail at that rate, i could be wrong

Yes, and that is MS's only hardware with such high failure rates. The original Xbox, Microsoft mice, keyboards, Zunes (barring that epic hiccup with the dates). Their hardware is sorted.

I just always find it funny when people say "Microsoft can't make hardware!" and cite the one example where they went balls up or "Microsoft can't make software!" whilst making the most commonly used office suite and OS going. XP itself is perfect now from a stability standpoint, it's been 2 years and I have never had a virus under XP, never had a bluescreen crash. OSX has been the same.

blueicedj

Mar 3, 2009, 01:25 PM

The original Xbox was never a big hit, but the 360 holds probably 40% of the gaming market (i'm guessing... PS3 at 40% and Wii at 20%).

Very wrong. The Wii has sold way more consoles than anyone else. Microsoft follows far behind with Sony following even further. The PS3 is a dying system. Analysts even expect the Wii will sell more units than the xbox and PS3 combined in 2009

The Wii has sold 44.96 million units
the xbox 360 has sold 27.93 million units
and the PS3 has sold 21.3 million units

elppa

Mar 3, 2009, 01:44 PM

stupid ObjC dev tools.

Stupid in what way. Care to expand?

rajalot

Mar 3, 2009, 03:15 PM

Stupid in what way. Care to expand?

OS X is too tied to that language. If you really want to make something, you gotta learn that. And how many does? Under 1% of coder population. Windows and Linux give you more flexibility in developement, too.

dscuber9000

Mar 3, 2009, 03:37 PM

I think people keep buying Windows because they are just used to it, and there are a lot of people out there who don't even realize there is something other than windows. And then there is the whole issue that Macbooks cost $1200 when my sister got a PC laptop for only $600.

As for Xbox 360, the answer is simple. It is cheaper than the PlayStation 3 (and even the Wii now) and it has the best games. Of course, that is just opinion, but that seems to be the majority opinion of hard-core gamers. The technical issues suck, but if you look at the PlayStation 2, which was very successful, it had some technical issues as well (though not nearly as many as Xbox 360). Gamers will buy the console with the best games, and that is usually the only factor that goes into it. Especially when the console is at a good price-point.

Why Zune gets respectable sales, I have no idea. :p

thejadedmonkey

Mar 3, 2009, 03:57 PM

NT1440

Mar 3, 2009, 04:00 PM

If you look at a computer as an appliance, much like a toaster or microwave, it's hard to see why someone would want to spend more money for an inferior product.

Most people look at computers as appliances that enable them to do something, much like a microwave enables them to heat things fast.

Following this logic, you explain to me why anyone in their right mind would get a mac?

And there is a growing trend with the youth (people under 40) who have grown up with computers and devices. They arent JUST appliances to MANY people today, and that trend will continue to grow as they become more and more the center of our personal and professional lives.

boonlar

Mar 3, 2009, 04:17 PM

And there is a growing trend with the youth (people under 40) who have grown up with computers and devices. They arent JUST appliances to MANY people today, and that trend will continue to grow as they become more and more the center of our personal and professional lives.

if they aren't appliances then what are they? fashion statements? :D:D:D

Eidorian

Mar 3, 2009, 04:18 PM

if they aren't appliances then what are they? fashion statements? :D:D:DI know quite a few people that call Macs fashion statements.

blackhand1001

Mar 3, 2009, 05:27 PM

I know quite a few people that call Macs fashion statements.

The sad thing is that this is true. I have heard some people say that something by Apple is better than so and so product solely because of its styling.

Apple isn't going to break into the business sector until they can offer solutions that fit. All in ones are a no go in an Office setting because their upgrade capabilities are limited and they have a higher failure rate. I know its not going to happen anytime soon, but if apple truly wants to penetrate into the business market, they need to offer a cheap midrange tower. I have screwed around with a 6 year old dell that a friend didn't want anymore to see if i could run OS X on it, successfully after a lot of frustration, and its quite responsive and even the lowest core 2 chips today blow away the aging Pentium 4 in this thing. Simply put, very few enterprises need every one of their desktop to have dual Xeons. While low-end Dell home computers are nothing run home about, midrange business desktop's from them are very well thought out and put together which is why you will see Dell desktop's in so many businesses. Apple has a ton of potential in this market sector. In my opinion, the lost sales of the iMacs and the Mac Pros would would be far outweighed buy the increase in sales in the business market, the largest market share in the computer industry.

SactoGuy18

Mar 3, 2009, 07:16 PM

I think Apple blew it by NOT offering a small desktop tower machine that can be user-upgraded.

Given the price of 24" 1920x1200 monitors nowadays even from LG and Samsung, Apple could build a small tower machine with the Intel Core 2 Quad Q9xxxS CPU plus a third-party 24" monitor for around US$1,200 "out the door," a lot less pricey than most iMac configurations.

As such, I can buy a very top-line quad-core CPU PC running Windows Vista Home Premium Edition SP1, 8 GB of DDR3 RAM, 1 TB Serial ATA-II hard drive, 512 MB nVidia or ATI graphics card, and BD-ROM/DVD+/-R drive plus a good third-party 24" flat panel for just over US$1,300. Apple is going to lose a lot of sales to the higher-end PC market over what amounts of incremental improvements to their iMac line.

Eidorian

Mar 3, 2009, 07:19 PM

The sad thing is that this is true. I have heard some people say that something by Apple is better than so and so product solely because of its styling.

Apple isn't going to break into the business sector until they can offer solutions that fit. All in ones are a no go in an Office setting because their upgrade capabilities are limited and they have a higher failure rate. I know its not going to happen anytime soon, but if apple truly wants to penetrate into the business market, they need to offer a cheap midrange tower. I have screwed around with a 6 year old dell that a friend didn't want anymore to see if i could run OS X on it, successfully after a lot of frustration, and its quite responsive and even the lowest core 2 chips today blow away the aging Pentium 4 in this thing. Simply put, very few enterprises need every one of their desktop to have dual Xeons. While low-end Dell home computers are nothing run home about, midrange business desktop's from them are very well thought out and put together which is why you will see Dell desktop's in so many businesses. Apple has a ton of potential in this market sector. In my opinion, the lost sales of the iMacs and the Mac Pros would would be far outweighed buy the increase in sales in the business market, the largest market share in the computer industry.Celeron Dual Cores and the so called lowly E5200 are more than enough for the mainstream. Slap a decent HD48xx card with the E5200 and you have a budget Intel gaming machine for $400-500.

Lets not even go into how far you can overclock these things.

IJ Reilly

Mar 3, 2009, 07:32 PM

I think Apple blew it by NOT offering a small desktop tower machine that can be user-upgraded.

Except that probably 98% of computer users never upgrade anything beyond RAM. Apple knows this, even if you don't.

Syonidism

Mar 3, 2009, 07:47 PM

if half the gamez on doze would be available in macz, i'd totally go %100 however im more of a gamer, hence %40 windows %60 mac.

Eventhough I lean towards mac's i have to give it to windows, they seem to be the scapegoat of everything just because they had a bad streak with vista(and probably with win 7) however one must remember that when macs were first available they were quite expensive compared to pc's. But they managed to pull out of that.

Oh and also; Most of your communications satellites are run on linux. Hence your precious internetz is pretty much based on linux.

Not to burst anyones bubble or anything but, umm. isn't linux free?

Garsh, linux IS free and it is also open for specific SPECIALIZATION and IMPROVEMENTS depending on the user.

ouch.

"the best things in life are free"

-oxygen
-love
-internet
-linux

-google phone? (no idea read something about on /. or something)

oh and xbox sux hardcore. Sorry all you Xbox fans but ps3 nailed that.

DJ567

Mar 3, 2009, 07:59 PM

blackhand1001

Mar 3, 2009, 10:22 PM

Except that probably 98% of computer users never upgrade anything beyond RAM. Apple knows this, even if you don't.

Maybe 98% of the consumer market. But in the enterprise, I know from experience that systems on average are upgraded several times before being replaced.

IJ Reilly

Mar 4, 2009, 12:26 AM

Maybe 98% of the consumer market. But in the enterprise, I know from experience that systems on average are upgraded several times before being replaced.

It's been said a million times before: Apple isn't making computers for that market. If they wanted to, they could, but clearly they don't have an interest.

dejo

Mar 4, 2009, 01:24 AM

But in the enterprise, I know from experience that systems on average are upgraded several times before being replaced.
Personal experience != entire enterprise market.

jklara

Mar 4, 2009, 04:24 AM

I'm new to mac but from what I've seen of their software, I have no choice. I do a lot of word processing and WORD 2008, without the macros, is hellaciously wrong. Word Perfect has nothing for mac. Pages may be great for spread sheets but it doesn't even come close for word processing. Someone recommended Sequel but I haven't checked it out yet. If you are so down on microsoft, what do you recommend as an alternative?

ziggyonice

Mar 4, 2009, 04:50 AM

Why do people still buy Microsoft? The answer is complicated, but it comes down to several things, of which -- most importantly -- is timing.

Yes, timing: the situation is generational. I was born in the late 80s, just as the Mac was getting big. And during my years as a child of the mid-90s, Apple's products started going down the drain. My generation discovered the dark ages of Apple products, when using a Mac was "uncool" and PCs were top-of-the-line. It was my generation that yelled out, "Macs suck!" and started the battle between Mac vs. PC. Overall, not a great thing to be a part of.

But interestingly, the generations growing up now are seeing Apple in a different light -- where iPods, iPhones, and even Macs are cool. They don't see what the dark ages brought. While my generation will still consist of some stubborn individuals who still swear by their PCs, many of them are dropping off to switch to the Mac and give it another chance. But wait til the later years, as even now, the Mac is coming back.

Kennedy

Mar 11, 2009, 12:04 AM

ziggy, i hope the world takes a hint from apple. may we all come out of these dark economic times stronger than ever before.

Goona

Mar 11, 2009, 08:43 PM

It had better be more than hardware, since they lose money on hardware. But then so do Nintendo and Sony. No, the point is the Xbox division has only recently begun to post quarterly profits, and this is after years of losses. They've got quite a hole to dig themselves out of, and it will take years. This was forecasted at the very beginning of the Xbox program, btw. So some of us at least are not surprised.

But again, the very simple point I am making here is that Apple could not attempt this kind of strategy without being branded as a failure. All of Apple's new products are expected to be profitable right out of the box, in fact very very profitable, or they will be seen to have failed. Nobody, at least not anybody outside of Apple, would be defending their "long term strategy" if the iPod or the iPhone had lost money for years on end.

Completely different standards of success apply to these two companies. When Microsoft tries something new, everyone looks high and low for signs that they will succeed, because that's what the conventional wisdom dictates will happen. For the same reason, when Apple tries something, everyone looks high and low for signs that they will fail. It's been that way -- forever.Well said, couldn't have put it better. Watch Apple release a product that doesn't sell in the millions right away but still makes money and they will get bashed, look at Apple TV. Microsoft releases a product that is constantly loosing money and no one gets on their back about it and people defend them.

Goona

Mar 11, 2009, 08:44 PM

steve2112

Mar 11, 2009, 10:45 PM

Yeah like Microsoft doesn't hype their products but yet they still get a pass.

Actually, Microsoft doesn't hype their products. Their marketing is generally terrible. Witness the whole thing with Jerry Seinfield and Bill Gates. What were they thinking?

The sad part is that Microsoft actually has some cool stuff they have developed, but nobody knows about them, because of this sorry marketing.

IJ Reilly

Mar 12, 2009, 12:19 AM

Of course Microsoft hypes their products. They just do it rather poorly.

Goona

Mar 12, 2009, 12:22 AM

Actually, Microsoft doesn't hype their products. Their marketing is generally terrible. Witness the whole thing with Jerry Seinfield and Bill Gates. What were they thinking?

The sad part is that Microsoft actually has some cool stuff they have developed, but nobody knows about them, because of this sorry marketing.

Don't make me laugh, so because they are horrible at marketing, it means they don't hype their products? I mean come on.

IJ Reilly

Mar 12, 2009, 12:23 AM

I wonder what we're supposed to call the $300 million advertising campaign for Vista?

iNikon

Mar 12, 2009, 04:35 AM

This thread is so funny I may not even sleep tonight. I've never seen more fanboys in my life in one thread. Bravo.

jeremybuff

Mar 12, 2009, 06:10 AM

You know, in my opion, Microsoft products and Apple products are entirely different. Even down to the keyboards. I understand Microsoft keyboards/mice are very good, though I do not currently use them. On my PC, I use an Apple keyboard and a Logictech MX revolution mouse. To me, that is the best combination in the market. However, microsoft's hardware has served me excellently over the years.

The 360 is an all-around great gaming device. Though the PS3 is better as far as specs, games cannot even be made yet to fully take advantage of the PS3's power. In due time, my friends, in due time. The bottom line, as others have pointed out, is that windows computers (price wise) are more economical for businesses, most people know how to use a windows computer, and they are "known". Even Windows is not that bad, depending on what you're doing. Though I experience the BSOD at least once a month, (vista/win7) the OS is solid otherwise- for normal internet/photos, etc.

Win7 also has a few nice features, and I'm not even going to lie, the new taskbar is better than the OSX Dock. More functionality, and just as easy to use. I'm thoroughly shocked MS churned out something I like more than the dock.

Goona

Mar 12, 2009, 07:12 AM

This thread is so funny I may not even sleep tonight. I've never seen more fanboys in my life in one thread. Bravo.Yes and what are you supposed to be, a "hater"?

steve2112

Mar 12, 2009, 10:15 AM

Don't make me laugh, so because they are horrible at marketing, it means they don't hype their products? I mean come on.

They don't hype the right ones. The Vista marketing campaign was a failure. And they didn't even really start that campaign until well after it launched.

An example of a good product not hyped or advertised at all: Did you know you can get 25GB of storage online, for free? Most people don't. It's called Microsoft SkyDrive, and they have never really promoted it anywhere. This is exactly the type of thing they should be hyping to fight against Google, but yet it seems nobody has heard of it. They have a few other useful services and such that nobody has heard of.

IJ Reilly

Mar 12, 2009, 11:16 AM

Yes and what are you supposed to be, a "hater"?

I believe the t-word applies.

They don't hype the right ones. The Vista marketing campaign was a failure. And they didn't even really start that campaign until well after it launched.

So, what's the difference? A few recent posters have touched on an issue which I've felt has been an important one for a long time: Microsoft spends heavily on marketing, they just don't seem to spend very effectively. This goes a long way towards disproving the theory that Microsoft succeeds because of their "great marketing." In reality they've succeed in spite of their terrible marketing, mainly because their products have been more about what people feel they need than what they want.

MatLane

Mar 12, 2009, 11:19 AM

I dont have any faith in Microsoft any more.

I'm hoping Windows 7 is a success.

The only Microsoft software i will purchase is Office.

steve2112

Mar 12, 2009, 11:33 AM

I believe the t-word applies.

So, what's the difference? A few recent posters have touched on an issue which I've felt has been an important one for a long time: Microsoft spends heavily on marketing, they just don't seem to spend very effectively. This goes a long way towards disproving the theory that Microsoft succeeds because of their "great marketing." In reality they've succeed in spite of their terrible marketing, mainly because their products have been more about what people feel they need than what they want.

You know, I actually agree with you 100% on that. They have succeeded in spite of themselves. To be honest, the got their foot in the door long ago with the IBM/DOS deal, and have been building on that. They took advantage of some blunders by their rivals (Apple III, Wordperfect) and built their base in business, and have been living on that ever since.

For example, at my office, we have 2000+ workstations, and 50 or so severs. To try to convert that from Microsoft to anything else would be a huge undertaking, and it just isn't going to happen. And then there are the policymakers far above my head who only know Microsoft because that is what we have always used, and they see no reason to change. Oh yeah, and they are distrustful of anything open source.

IJ Reilly

Mar 12, 2009, 11:52 AM

This goes back to some of the points I made earlier. If Microsoft released a crate of manure as a product, a lot of people would be digging around in the crate looking for the pony. If Apple released a pony as a product, just as many would be lifting the pony's tail, looking for the manure. Before anyone tries to dispute me on this point, I suggest they spend some time looking through the recent thread on the new iPod shuffle, if they can stand reading the comments of hundreds of pony tail lifters.

nplima

Mar 18, 2009, 10:18 AM

Nojja

Mar 18, 2009, 10:58 AM

Its like all products. Lets say you buy butter brand every time you go to the store. You never think about buying that bit more expensive butter, you do not even reflect over it. Of course the people who knows a lot of butter also knows that expensive butter is the best, they of course tries to let everybody knows that,but seriously who cares, you probably do not, its just butter you think. So do i think the majority of the people think when they are a bout to buy a new computer.

Also, when large parts of the third world gets computer it will definitely not be macs.

IJ Reilly

Mar 18, 2009, 11:26 AM

man, that easily applies the other way around, depending on people's preference and experience...

Sure, it can be, but I'm thinking broadly over the last 15 years or so. Especially if you exclude the last few years when Apple has become resurgent, you'll see that it has been a consistent, conventional expectation that Microsoft succeeds and Apple fails.

Not that this vibe has disappeared entirely during recent years. Just this morning I read a newspaper article about the iPhone 3.0 update, spun entirely towards how it is intended to fix mistakes and cure user headaches. If you didn't know better, you'd think the iPhone had been a failure to this point.

Truth is, Apple is still the subject of a lot of deeply-entrenched bad will, and expectations that any success they experience will be temporary. OTOH, you'll find hardly anyone expressing the sentiment that Microsoft isn't safe and permanent, a point of view that doesn't change an iota no matter how badly they may screw up.

nplima

Mar 18, 2009, 11:34 AM

Sure, it can be, but I'm thinking broadly over the last 15 years or so.

I think that in broad enough terms, media make more money selling stories about how bad things are and not that much time is spent praising people and good products. I understand where you're getting, but it does not take much effort to realise that blogs and newspapers tend to behave like a "whinge-fest". :)

IJ Reilly

Mar 18, 2009, 12:28 PM

I may be feeding off my own biases, but for years I've been hearing the expectation that Apple must deliver perfection or be seen as having failed, while Microsoft can deliver just good enough, and be seen as having done as much as can be expected. We hear that sentiment expressed in this forum every day -- and we're supposed to be Apple fans around here. And yet, every new Apple release is greeted by this crowd with waves of disappointment, anger, fury, resentment, and predictions of failure. At the same time, it's no problem at all to obtain hundreds of recommendations for buying Microsoft Office. Even among Apple fans, Microsoft is still good enough no matter how little they try, and Apple apparently never is, no matter how hard they try. It's weird, but it is consistent.

RBRat3

Jan 13, 2010, 12:56 PM

Well im the kind of person that looks up numbers and scores and the only thing a ps3 had over the 360 is a higher floating point, 360 has a higher 3d capability 300-500M triangles (depending on what pipelines used) and a meger 250M triangles for the ps3. I think the only advantage a ps3 has over a 360 is being able to handle a physics engine better due to its floating point.
Now for quality i gotta hand it to microsoft, the original xbox is the most heavly modded console of all time and being able to make it into a decent media center. As for the 360 ive had a RROD sent it out for FREE and got it back for FREE with an extended 3 yr warrenty and a FREE 1 month of xbox live. Now I cant complain any company that can back up their hardware and keeps money in my pocket has my respect for them and i havent had a problem with the console since. Its not about specs speed or what it looks like its the quality of the games and what you do with it. 360 is ahead because of the big price diffrence 360 at $300 and ps3 at $700.
people are going to buy the cheaper console and when more people buy the console more people own the colsole. Developers look at this cause they want to make some serious cash so their going to choose what the mass majority bought. I belive each to their own its not like im dedicated to microsoft its just that sony made a misteak in the begining and i so lost my hard on. I love sony i perfer their controllers over the xbox and i hope sony can fix this.