Is using a tethering app without paying extra, stealing?

[jajohns8]

Is using a tethering app without paying extra, stealing?

I'm not against tethering, I just think you should pay for your fair share of burden on the network.

I was reading the threads concerning the tethering apps and I had to stop and ask myself if it was the same as stealing.

Is it?

Some people claim that "because they already pay for an 'unlimited' data plan," they should be able to tether.

I thought the unlimited data plan was for your phone only. Not for your phone to act like a modem/router for other hardware. At that point your laptop/other hardware is using the data. Not the phone.

If everyone tethered, I would have to assume the already weak and problem prone 3G network would be even worse.

If you use more bandwidth than everyone else, and thus are responsible for more of a burden on the network, then I really think you should pay for it.
Maybe 30.00 a month is too high. I dont know.

I don't love paying bills either. Still, I dont think I should have something just because I think I deserve it. If that's the case, then pony up the Ferrari.

I am not accusing anyone of anything. I think that maybe its been made out to be a "gray" area when its actually pretty simple.

My son learns simple things at home and kindergarten like "if everyone grabbed 2 cookies instead of one, then not everybody would get to have one."

I think that if everyone tethered without paying, it would cause an already problem prone 3g network more problems.

[netdog]

wrong thread

sorry

[QuantumLo0p]

If tethering is not addressed in any of your AT&T or Apple agreements then I would not lose sleep over it.

Happy tethering!
:)

[jajohns8]

"(c) You may not and you agree not to, or to enable others to copy, decompile, reverse engineer...modify....the Iphone software........"

Page one, Iphone Software License agreement.

Paragraph 2, section c.

Tethering without paying requires jailbreak, right? Looks like jailbreak is a violation of the agreement.

Illegal? That's another question.

Is it stealing?

[Tokiopop]

You're paying for unlimited data. You. Are. Paying.

It maybe against the terms and conditions, but I don't see how it's legally or morally wrong to use your unlimited internet access with a computer.

[jajohns8]

Go ahead, finish that sentence.

You are "paying" for unlimited data "for your phone."

[Tokiopop]

Go ahead, finish that sentence.

You are paying for unlimited data "for your phone."

IMO that's like saying I pay for mobile internet for my laptop, but I'm not allowed to use it with my desktop.

I'd happily tether my iPhone, I've not really done much yet since I haven't gone anywhere lacking WiFi. If you think it's wrong because you're actually paying for internet on your phone, don't tether. If you just see it as paying for internet, tether away.

You're not getting the internet for free, are you?

[Ant1-Hero]

/ <Thread>

[jajohns8]

IMO that's like saying pay for mobile internet for my laptop, but I'm not allowed to use it with my desktop.

I'd happily tether my iPhone, I've not really done much yet since I haven't gone anywhere lacking WiFi. If you think it's wrong because you're actually paying for internet on your phone, don't tether. If you just see it as paying for internet, tether away.

Well, when you pay for a mobile internet card, is it understood in the terms of service you can use it on any pc or laptop?

It probably is.

Is it more of a burden on the 3g network because of what you are doing (moving the card from the desktop to laptop)?

Probably not in this case.

That's not comparing apples to apples.

[Tokiopop]

That's not comparing apples to apples.

Okay then, mobile internet from a MacBook to a iMac :p

[jajohns8]

Okay then, mobile internet from a MacBook to a iMac :p

Good one!

Still though. I guess my perception is that someone who tethers puts a harder strain on the 3g network than does a user who does not tether.

Moving the mobile internet card, as you suggested, from the one device to another is expected and that burden is paid for by the buyer of the mobile internet card. No issues there.

Again, I'm not against tethering, I'm just against people thinking they have a right to free bandwidth.

They paid for unlimited data for their phone. They did not pay for unlimited data that their phone can provide to another device.

[The General]

No, it's just against their terms of service, which is just a heap of legaleeze that won't hold up in court.

If caught tethering, NOTHING WILL HAPPEN LEGALLY. CHARGES WILL NOT BE PRESSED. YOU WILL NOT BE TRIED OR CONVICTED OF THEFT. It is not theft.

You'll get a slap on the wrist, if ANYTHING from AT&T. Not that AT&T has the ability to know that you're tethering anyway, for all they know it's your phone accessing the internet BECAUSE IT IS. The only difference is that you're sending the data along to your computer.

Websites -> Internet -> Phone -> Computer

It's the same as downloading apps and syncing them to your computer:

Apps -> Internet -> Phone -> Computer

Or Podcasts:

Podcasts -> Internet -> Phone -> Computer

I don't know what the MAFIAA have put in your head about what is stealing and what isn't, but let me make it perfectly clear:

Walking into Best Buy, taking a CD and walking out is stealing. CDs are physical objects that cost money to reproduce. After you take it without paying, Best Buy is out one CD and didn't get compensation for it. That is stealing. You stole the CD.

You pay AT&T for unlimited internet. They want to take another $30/mo for you to use the SAME internet on the SAME phone, only view the websites and stuff on your computer instead of on your phone. You don't. You jailbreak and tether or use NetShare to tether. AT&T is NOT out anything. They haven't lost a single dime or object cost of service. It's the SAME internet, they just want to collect more money.

They haven't lost anything:

1. I wasn't going to pay for tethering service anyway, so they haven't lost a customer.
2. I'm using the bandwidth I PAY FOR ANYWAY on my iPhone.

[jajohns8]

No, it's just against their terms of service, which is just a heap of legaleeze that won't hold up in court.

If caught tethering, NOTHING WILL HAPPEN LEGALLY. YOU WILL NOT BE TRIED OR CONVICTED OF THEFT. It is not theft.

Well, sorry, but if they wanted to, it probably would hold up in court.

We all know they aren't going to hunt you down. That's not at all what I'm concerned about.

How is it not theft? You are taking something without paying for it. You pay for unlimited data for your phone. Not for unlimited data that your Iphone can give to another device.

I don't throw trash out of my window when I'm driving because I'm not a douche. Not because I'll have to pay a fine.

I've already said "legal" was another matter. That's not what this thread is about.

Is it stealing? Is it wrong?

[Tallest Skil]

I've already said "legal" was another matter. That's not what this thread is about.

Is it stealing? Is it wrong?

So, what, you don't think that stealing is illegal? They are EXACTLY what this thread is about.

Also, my personal opinion is: It's a telecom, they're screwing everyone on everything anyway, fight the power.

[The General]

Well, sorry, but if they wanted to, it probably would hold up in court.

Show me one case in which someone was tried and convicted using their violation of terms of service or EULA as ANY sort of evidence related to ANYTHING illegal.

Also, I have added more to my previous post.

AT&T is offering you a service. They want to sell it to you.

AT&T: "Hello, good sir. Would you like to purchase the ability to tether your iPhone?"
Me: "Oh, no thanks. I already have that, so I don't need to purchase it. But thanks anyway!"

[plumbingandtech]

Yes. You are breaking the TOA.

AND you are clogging up a 3G network for the rest of us who are keeping things legal.

And no. It's night all right to say "phone companies" are evil therefore it's ok to steal from them.

Circuit City was evil... and if I had smashed and grabbed one of their TVs I would be in jail.

:rolleyes:

[jajohns8]

So, what, you don't think that stealing is illegal? They are EXACTLY what this thread is about.

Also, my personal opinion is: It's a telecom, they're screwing everyone on everything anyway, fight the power.

Ok, so if you are stealing bandwidth, then you are doing something illegal, right?

Great. I wasnt going to make that stretch, but, hey, glad you did.

[The General]

Yes. You are breaking the TOA.

Okay... We are also breaking the TOA by using the YouTube app or downloading Podcasts.

Have you even read it? It's a bunch of legalese nonsense.

AND you are clogging up a 3G network for the rest of us who are keeping things legal.

Wha?? We're using the bandwidth we paid for... if AT&T's capacity cannot hold us all, then they need to expand. Using our phones to download apps and websites and podcasts isn't "easier" on the bandwidth than surfing the web on our computers... in fact, it's exactly the same.

And no. It's night all right to say "phone companies" are evil therefore it's ok to steal from them.

Circuit City was evil... and if I had smashed and grabbed one of their TVs I would be in jail.

:rolleyes:

Taking a TV is theft because Circuit City would have lost a TV without compensation. What does AT&T lose without compensation?


Ok, so if you are stealing bandwidth, then you are doing something illegal, right?

Great. I wasnt going to make that stretch, but, hey, glad you did.

But we AREN'T stealing bandwidth, we already have UNLIMITED bandwidth for our phones, and when I tether, I'm connecting through my phone, so what is the difference?

[Tallest Skil]

Ok, so if you are stealing bandwidth, then you are doing something illegal, right?

Great. I wasnt going to make that stretch, but, hey, glad you did.

Stretch.

It's a stretch for you to connect theft with illegality?

[jajohns8]

Show me one case in which someone was tried and convicted using their violation of terms of service or EULA as ANY sort of evidence related to ANYTHING illegal.

Also, I have added more to my previous post.

AT&T is offering you a service. They want to sell it to you.

AT&T: "Hello, good sir. Would you like to purchase the ability to tether your iPhone?"
Me: "Oh, no thanks. I already have that, so I don't need to purchase it. But thanks anyway!"

I already said, we all know they aren't going to hunt you down. That's not what the thread is about.

I think tethering is stealing.

I could care less if they actually come after you in court.

I think that they expect tetherers to pay for their fair share of bandwidth.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

[jajohns8]

Stretch.

It's a stretch for you to connect theft with illegality?

Is tethering "stealing?"

Just answer that for me. That's all.

[jajohns8]

Okay... We are also breaking the TOA by using the YouTube app or downloading Podcasts.

Have you even read it? It's a bunch of legalese nonsense.



Wha?? We're using the bandwidth we paid for... if AT&T's capacity cannot hold us all, then they need to expand. Using our phones to download apps and websites and podcasts isn't "easier" on the bandwidth than surfing the web on our computers... in fact, it's exactly the same.



Taking a TV is theft because Circuit City would have lost a TV without compensation. What does AT&T lose without compensation?




But we AREN'T stealing bandwidth, we already have UNLIMITED bandwidth for our phones, and when I tether, I'm connecting through my phone, so what is the difference?

I'm not clear on the youtube violation. What do you mean?

If AT@T has to expand as a result of people using the phone to provide data to another device, you should help pay for that expansion, in proportion to your use, if you are going to use your phone to provide data to another device against the TOS.

You have unlimited bandwidth for your phone. Not for what your phone can provide to another device.

[The General]

I already said, we all know they aren't going to hunt you down. That's not what the thread is about.

I think tethering is stealing.

And if it were stealing, they would hunt you down, because stealing is illegal.

I could care less if they actually come after you in court.

You mean you "couldn't" care less. Could means you care somewhat, couldn't means you care the least amount possible.

But, as I said, if it were illegal stealing then you'd be in court for stealing, because stealing is illegal. There is no other distinction of stealing. Maybe you have a delusion based no some sort of religion, but again, that won't hold up in court. There is no morale to be discussed here.

I think that they expect tetherers to pay for their fair share of bandwidth.

AND WE FRICKIN DO! What is it that you don't understand about this? WE PAY $30/MO FOR UNLIMITED BANDWIDTH.

You have unlimited bandwith for your phone. Not for what your phone can provide to another device.

I USE MY PHONE TO CONNECT TO THE INTERNET. I AM USING MY PHONE'S UNLIMITED BANDWIDTH.

This is like my cable company calling me up and saying "hey, you paid for unlimited data on your MODEM. If you want to use your computers you gotta pay extra."

I don't need my internet providers freaking MICROMANAGING how I use my UNLIMITED BANDWIDTH.

[jajohns8]

And if it were stealing, they would hunt you down, because stealing is illegal.



You mean you "couldn't" care less. Could means you care somewhat, couldn't means you care the least amount possible.

But, as I said, if it were illegal stealing then you'd be in court for stealing, because stealing is illegal. There is no other distinction of stealing. Maybe you have a delusion based no some sort of religion, but again, that won't hold up in court. There is no morale to be discussed here.



AND WE FRICKIN DO! What is it that you don't understand about this? WE PAY $30/MO FOR UNLIMITED BANDWIDTH.



I USE MY PHONE TO CONNECT TO THE INTERNET. I AM USING MY PHONE'S UNLIMITED BANDWIDTH.

This is like my cable company calling me up and saying "hey, you paid for unlimited data on your MODEM. If you want to use your computers you gotta pay extra."

I don't need my internet providers freaking MICROMANAGING how I use my UNLIMITED BANDWIDTH.

Wow, I must be getting to you if you have to resort to "corektin' mah grammmmur."

Not my intention to get to you, BTW.

We can do that in another thread if you want... to (compare brain pans.) Let's keep this on topic, k?

Also, because I am not hauled into court over stealing a paper clip doesn't mean it's not wrong. So...the whole "AT@T isnt bringing people to court, so it must be ok" argument fails.

No, its not like what you said at all. You are talking about a 3G network that caved because of how fragile it is during the Iphone 3g activation debacle.

This isnt the same as your cable broadband network. That comparison is inaccurate.

[plumbingandtech]

Okay... We are also breaking the TOA by using the YouTube app or downloading Podcasts.


Of course not since are downloading them ON the phone, not via tether.

Have you even read it? It's a bunch of legalese nonsense.

Wow. Just wow. So legalese in a legal document means it is null and void?

Just wow.

Wha?? We're using the bandwidth we paid for... if AT&T's capacity cannot hold us all, then they need to expand. Using our phones to download apps and websites and podcasts isn't "easier" on the bandwidth than surfing the web on our computers... in fact, it's exactly the same.

Here. I corrected it for you:

Wha?? We're using the bandwidth on the iphone, we paid for...

ON the iphone. Tethering is NOT the iphone, it is a conduit. You get unlimited bandwidget using the phone. Not unlimited tethered. Not really rocket science here.

Taking a TV is theft because Circuit City would have lost a TV without compensation. What does AT&T lose without compensation?

It forces them to upgrade $$$$ their 3g network faster so the people following the rules don't complain and leave the service.


But we AREN'T stealing bandwidth, we already have UNLIMITED bandwidth for our phones, and when I tether, I'm connecting through my phone, so what is the difference?

See above. On the phone. And the bandwidth is NOT yours, it is ATTs and you and I are paying for the use of it.

ATT gets to say what we can do with THEIR bandwidth. They say no to tether on the iphone. If one disagrees with all that then one can cancel one's ATT mobile phone service.

[The General]

I'm not clear on the youtube violation. What do you mean?

This is from the iPhone terms of service:
http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/articles-resources/iphone-terms.jsp

Prohibited and Permissible Uses: Data Service sessions may be conducted only for the following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) corporate intranet access (including access to corporate email, customer relationship management, sales force automation, and field service automation applications). PROHIBITED USES INCLUDE, BUT ARE NOT LIMITED TO, USING SERVICES: (I) WITH SERVER DEVICES OR WITH HOST COMPUTER APPLICATIONS, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, WEB CAMERA POSTS OR BROADCASTS, CONTINUOUS JPEG FILE TRANSFERS, AUTOMATIC DATA FEEDS, TELEMETRY APPLICATIONS, PEER-TO-PEER (P2P) FILE SHARING, AUTOMATED FUNCTIONS OR ANY OTHER MACHINE-TO-MACHINE APPLICATIONS; (II) AS SUBSTITUTE OR BACKUP FOR PRIVATE LINES OR DEDICATED DATA CONNECTIONS; (III) FOR VOICE OVER IP; (IV) IN CONJUNCTION WITH WWAN OR OTHER APPLICATIONS OR DEVICES WHICH AGGREGATE USAGE FROM MULTIPLE SOURCES PRIOR TO TRANSMISSION; (V) USING THE SERVICES FOR ANY ACTIVITY THAT ADVERSELY AFFECTS THE ABILITY OF OTHER PEOPLE OR SYSTEMS TO USE EITHER THE SERVICES OR OTHER PARTIES' INTERNET-BASED RESOURCES INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO EXCESSIVE CONSUMPTION OF NETWORK OR SYSTEM RESOURCES (WHETHER INTENTIONAL OR UNINTENTIONAL) AND "DENIAL OF SERVICE" (DOS) ATTACKS AGAINST ANOTHER NETWORK HOST OR INDIVIDUAL USER; OR (VI) INTERFERENCE WITH OR DISRUPTION OF OTHER NETWORK USERS, NETWORK SERVICES OR NETWORK EQUIPMENT. EXCEPT FOR CONTENT FORMATTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH AT&T'S CONTENT STANDARDS, UNLIMITED PLANS CANNOT BE USED FOR UPLOADING, DOWNLOADING OR STREAMING OF VIDEO CONTENT (E.G. MOVIES, TV), MUSIC OR GAMES. FURTHERMORE, UNLIMITED PLANS (EXCEPT FOR DATACONNECT AND BLACKBERRY TETHERED) CANNOT BE USED FOR ANY APPLICATIONS THAT TETHER THE DEVICE (THROUGH USE OF, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, CONNECTION KITS, OTHER PHONE/PDA-TO-COMPUTER ACCESSORIES, BLUETOOTH® OR ANY OTHER WIRELESS TECHNOLOGY) TO LAPTOPS, PCS, OR OTHER EQUIPMENT FOR ANY PURPOSE.

What are AT&T's content standards? Am I to look this up before I agree? It's nowhere to be found on Google. Either way, Safari will play Quicktime movies from any website. So there you go.

If AT@T has to expand as a result of people using the phone to provide data to another device, you should help pay for that expansion, in proportion to your use, if you are going to use your phone to provide data to another device against the TOS.

They haven't expanded because of it. You act like tethering with a computer uses more bandwidth or is faster than if I use my phone... ITS THE SAME CONNECTION. SAME SPEED. SAME BANDWIDTH.

[wwooden]

I personally don't see a difference between the data usage of the phone and phone/computer tether. I mean, the phone can only connect at a certain speed, it's not like when you tether to a computer all the sudden you get more bandwidth. You assume that someone tethering is going to use more data than someone who doesn't. You make it sound someone who uses the phone all day on data, should have to pay more than someone who one uses it a couple times a day to check email, etc. It's part of the agreement with AT&T that we get unlimited data usage; how we use that is our decision I think.

[plumbingandtech]

EXCEPT FOR CONTENT FORMATTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH AT&T'S CONTENT STANDARDS,

FURTHERMORE, UNLIMITED PLANS (EXCEPT FOR DATACONNECT AND BLACKBERRY TETHERED) CANNOT BE USED FOR ANY APPLICATIONS THAT TETHER THE DEVICE (

Thank you for proving my point.

Have a nice day.

[noah82]

So I have a question for you...I was one of the few lucky people to purchase NetShare when it was available in the App Store during the 6 hour window.

Because I purchased this program legally with Apple's approval, does this mean that I am "allowed" to tether because I am doing it within the rules?

I am curious to see everybody's take on this.

[jajohns8]

I personally don't see a difference between the data usage of the phone and phone/computer tether. I mean, the phone can only connect at a certain speed, it's not like when you tether to a computer all the sudden you get more bandwidth. You assume that someone tethering is going to use more data than someone who doesn't. You make it sound someone who uses the phone all day on data, should have to pay more than someone who one uses it a couple times a day to check email, etc. It's part of the agreement with AT&T that we get unlimited data usage; how we use that is our decision I think.

This actually gets to to heart of the argument. Thanks for bringing it up. I happen to think that people who tether are more apt to use more bandwidth.

I don't have solid numbers, but then again, I don't think anyone has numbers to prove the opposite either.

So we'll just have to make our different assumptions and disagree about them.

If you use more data because of tethering, you can use it anyway you see fit. Have at it. But, you should pay for it if you put more of a burden on the network.

[The General]

Also, because I am not hauled into court over stealing a paper clip doesn't mean it's not wrong. So...the whole "AT@T isnt bringing people to court, so it must be ok" argument fails.

It's not illegal, it's not stealing. I am baffled at your inability to understand this.

No, its not like what you said at all. You are talking about a 3G network that caved because of how fragile it is during the Iphone 3g activation debacle.

Oh, you mean the iPhones caused the network to fail? Well that's okay, because we all pay $30/mo. They can use that money to fix it and expand.

This isnt the same as your cable broadband network. That comparison is inaccurate.

What? Hahaha, you must be joking. Do explain how the cable company analogy doesn't apply or is inaccurate. I would love to hear it.

Of course not since are downloading them ON the phone, not via tether.

And what is the difference in bandwidth? There isn't one.

Wow. Just wow. So legalese in a legal document means it is null and void?

Just wow.

YES. That is EXACTLY why it is null and void. People agree to that crap because they want an iPhone, not because they understand it and accept it.

Here. I corrected it for you:

ON the iphone. Tethering is NOT the iphone, it is a conduit. You get unlimited bandwidget using the phone. Not unlimited tethered. Not really rocket science here.

The iPhone is using its hardware to access the internet. The iPhone is using its paid-for unlimited internet access. I know, it really isn't rocket science. It's that simple, the IPHONE is using its UNLIMITED DATA access.

It forces them to upgrade $$$$ their 3g network faster so the people following the rules don't complain and leave the service.

God, the MAFIAA has REALLY gotten to you. ITS THE SAME FREAKING BANDWIDTH AT THE SAME FREAKING SPEED. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO THE NETWORK THAN IT WOULD IF I WERE SURFING USING THE IPHONE. WHAT COULD YOU POSSIBLY MISUNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. THE NETWORK IS EQUALLY LIKELY TO BUCKLE UNDER THE LOAD OF 100 IPHONES AS IT IS TO 100 PEOPLE TETHERING USING THEIR IPHONES.

See above. On the phone. And the bandwidth is NOT yours, it is ATTs and you and I are paying for the use of it.

The bandwidth IS mine. I've PAID FOR IT. $30/MO FOR UNLIMITED BANDWIDTH. IT IS MINE. I OWN THE BANDWIDTH.
If AT&T want to micromanage how I use it, THAT IS A FAULT ON THEIR PART AND THEY SHOULDN'T SELL BANDWIDTH THEN.

ATT gets to say what we can do with THEIR bandwidth. They say no to tether on the iphone. If one disagrees with all that then one can cancel one's ATT mobile phone service.

They might get to say what you can do with your bandwidth, but not me. I don't just bend over and take that kind of crap. I'm also not switching providers because:

1. I want an iPhone.
2. The other providers are EVEN WORSE.

[jajohns8]

So I have a question for you...I was one of the few lucky people to purchase NetShare when it was available in the App Store during the 6 hour window.

Because I purchased this program legally with Apple's approval, does this mean that I am "allowed" to tether because I am doing it within the rules?

I am curious to see everybody's take on this.

Great question.

Since the use of this impacts the network that AT@T is responsible for maintaining, I think you should be allowed to keep the app, but you should abide by whatever AT@T wants you to do in terms of data usage. If they say, "hey, only a few people obtained it, no problem."
Then, hey, that's their call.

If they come up with an unlimited plan that you have to pay X amount per month, then yes, I personally believe you should pay for it.

[The General]

This actually gets to to heart of the argument. Thanks for bringing it up. I happen to think that people who tether are more apt to use more bandwidth.

I don't have solid numbers, but then again, I don't think anyone has numbers to prove the opposite either.

Even if we are more apt to use more bandwidth, it wouldn't matter BECAUSE WE HAVE AN UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF IT.

So we'll just have to make our different assumptions and disagree about them.

If you use more data because of tethering, you can use it anyway you see fit. Have at it. But, you should pay for it if you put more of a burden on the network.

Yes, agree to disagree. But, I do have one question to you:

Why did you post this thread ASKING us if you had already made up your mind that it IS stealing?

[jajohns8]

It's not illegal, it's not stealing. I am baffled at your inability to understand this.



Oh, you mean the iPhones caused the network to fail? Well that's okay, because we all pay $30/mo. They can use that money to fix it and expand.



What? Hahaha, you must be joking. Do explain how the cable company analogy doesn't apply or is inaccurate. I would love to hear it.



And what is the difference in bandwidth? There isn't one.



YES. That is EXACTLY why it is null and void. People agree to that crap because they want an iPhone, not because they understand it and accept it.



The iPhone is using its hardware to access the internet. The iPhone is using its paid-for unlimited internet access. I know, it really isn't rocket science. It's that simple, the IPHONE is using its UNLIMITED DATA access.



God, the MAFIAA has REALLY gotten to you. ITS THE SAME FREAKING BANDWIDTH AT THE SAME FREAKING SPEED. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO THE NETWORK THAN IT WOULD IF I WERE SURFING USING THE IPHONE. WHAT COULD YOU POSSIBLY MISUNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. THE NETWORK IS EQUALLY LIKELY TO BUCKLE UNDER THE LOAD OF 100 IPHONES AS IT IS TO 100 PEOPLE TETHERING USING THEIR IPHONES.



The bandwidth IS mine. I've PAID FOR IT. $30/MO FOR UNLIMITED BANDWIDTH. IT IS MINE. I OWN THE BANDWIDTH.
If AT&T want to micromanage how I use it, THAT IS A FAULT ON THEIR PART AND THEY SHOULDN'T SELL BANDWIDTH THEN.



They might get to say what you can do with your bandwidth, but not me. I don't just bend over and take that kind of crap. I'm also not switching providers because:

1. I want an iPhone.
2. The other providers are EVEN WORSE.

General, I will not reply to this until you repost and attribute posts that I made, to me.

[The General]

General, I will not reply to this until you repost and attribute posts that I made, to me.

Well, I fixed it but I really don't care about your response.

[jajohns8]

Even if we are more apt to use more bandwidth, it wouldn't matter BECAUSE WE HAVE AN UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF IT.



Yes, agree to disagree. But, I do have one question to you:

Why did you post this thread ASKING us if you had already made up your mind that it IS stealing?

You have an unlimited amount to use on your phone. Not what your phone can provide to another device.

I didnt make up my mind completely until I saw the responses.

Please. Change my mind.

[jajohns8]

Well, I fixed it but I really don't care about your response.

LOL. OK then. Take your ball and bat and go home.

[The General]

You have an unlimited amount to use on your phone. Not what your phone can provide to another device.

I am using it on my phone. It's not like I pulled the SIM card out and put it in a laptop connect card. And even then, it's the same account and same connection speed and same unlimited bandwidth that I am using. If AT&T's terms of service forbid that kind of activity, then that is their problem, not mine. I don't really care what the terms of service say I can and can't do.

Having my phone provide data to another device affects AT&T in no way.

The only way I would consider it stealing is if I were able to duplicate my SIM card and somehow activate and use the same account on two separate devices. Then I would be able to use twice as much bandwidth, and that WOULD affect AT&T.

LOL. OK then. Take your ball and bat and go home.

LOL

[jajohns8]

It's not illegal, it's not stealing. I am baffled at your inability to understand this.



Oh, you mean the iPhones caused the network to fail? Well that's okay, because we all pay $30/mo. They can use that money to fix it and expand.



What? Hahaha, you must be joking. Do explain how the cable company analogy doesn't apply or is inaccurate. I would love to hear it.



And what is the difference in bandwidth? There isn't one.



YES. That is EXACTLY why it is null and void. People agree to that crap because they want an iPhone, not because they understand it and accept it.



The iPhone is using its hardware to access the internet. The iPhone is using its paid-for unlimited internet access. I know, it really isn't rocket science. It's that simple, the IPHONE is using its UNLIMITED DATA access.



God, the MAFIAA has REALLY gotten to you. ITS THE SAME FREAKING BANDWIDTH AT THE SAME FREAKING SPEED. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO THE NETWORK THAN IT WOULD IF I WERE SURFING USING THE IPHONE. WHAT COULD YOU POSSIBLY MISUNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. THE NETWORK IS EQUALLY LIKELY TO BUCKLE UNDER THE LOAD OF 100 IPHONES AS IT IS TO 100 PEOPLE TETHERING USING THEIR IPHONES.



The bandwidth IS mine. I've PAID FOR IT. $30/MO FOR UNLIMITED BANDWIDTH. IT IS MINE. I OWN THE BANDWIDTH.
If AT&T want to micromanage how I use it, THAT IS A FAULT ON THEIR PART AND THEY SHOULDN'T SELL BANDWIDTH THEN.



They might get to say what you can do with your bandwidth, but not me. I don't just bend over and take that kind of crap. I'm also not switching providers because:

1. I want an iPhone.
2. The other providers are EVEN WORSE.

Even though General claims he doesnt care, I'll respond.

I do think it is stealing. I do think it may be illegal, but hey, that's not really what I'm concentrating on this thread.

Yeah, overloading the 3g network did make it fail. Yeah. That's what happened.

Broadband cable network is different than the 3G network. I dont go home and connect to my Iphone to play Call Of Duty. Please prove to me how I don't do that. It's because they are different.

Difference in bandwidth is an assumption BOTH of us are making differently. See other posts related to that.

Yeah, you paid for unlimited data for the phone to use. Not for what another device can suck through the iphone.

Oh, and not too sure about the mafia references. I liked The Sopranos. A little.

[evildarklordude]

...

Is it really true that a tethered computer on the iphone leads to higher bandwidth usage (And to be clear I mean data rate not total data usage)? As long as data speeds for others are not altered by the tethered I see no problem in tethering.

I am paying for unlimited total data THROUGH my iphone connection and I should be able to get it. The difference between using that data ON my iphone or through my iphone and ON my computer is immaterial. I am paying for data throughput and AT&T should not prescribe what that data is used for (imo, I don't know what the legalese for this is).

However, If it is true that tethering means I hog more than my fair share of the data rate on a given cell tower, I kind of feel some guilt. Don't know how I would fix that though. (For the record, I don't tether mostly because I don't need to... I am quite happy with the access just the iphone provides).

Cheers All.

[iamkarlp]

To the OP, you are absolutely right in spirit. While it isn't theft per-say, it is against the contract you signed - a legally binding contract.

For those that say that the TOS doesn't hold water because it bans usages that Apple themselves advertise that doesn't matter as Apple is the one who has put their name to the apps, they have assumed responsibility for the usage of them and we can surmise they have separate, private agreements with AT&T to enable those otherwise banned activities.

This means you can use YouTube on the iphone !!!BUT NOT ON ANY OTHER AT&T PHONE THAT ISNT NATIVELY LOADED WITH A YOUTUBE PLAYER FROM AT&T!!!!!

This also means that the few people who legally obtained netshare are ok with tethering, BUT NO ONE ELSE CAN TETHER and still hold up their end of the contract.

The reality is that if someone uses an iPhone to tether outside of a legally acquired netshare app then the contract is now broken and AT&T can choose to do what they will whether live with it, or kill your service and bill you a termination fee, or anything else for that matter.

You guys realize that breaking the TOS and thus the contract itself is a two way street that also gives AT&T the ability to, at some level, retaliate if they choose to, right?

And while it isn't illegal, it is technically stealing.

Don't let people who have justified their breaking of the contract change your viewpoints.

Living on the right side of the line is often a little more expensive, a little more work, and a little less glamorous but it is the basis to long term success in all ventures.

Karl P

Edit: Don't try to argue with me here. Especially with that unlimited bandwidth crap. We all know the unlimited data is for use ON the phone only. Not Through the Phone. We also know that it isn't truly unlimited data, it is simply unmetered bandwidth with soft caps that if passed may give us a warning, but not an extra charge. While I agree that this is a dubious use of the word unlimited in theory since it is unmetered it is unlimited. In any event in no way can you justify based on the TOS that the unlimited data is for use anywhere else but on the physical phone itself.

[jajohns8]

I am using it on my phone. It's not like I pulled the SIM card out and put it in a laptop connect card. And even then, it's the same account and same connection speed and same unlimited bandwidth that I am using. If AT&T's terms of service forbid that kind of activity, then that is their problem, not mine. I don't really care what the terms of service say I can and can't do.

Having my phone provide data to another device affects AT&T in no way.

The only way I would consider it stealing is if I were able to duplicate my SIM card and somehow activate and use the same account on two separate devices. Then I would be able to use twice as much bandwidth, and that WOULD affect AT&T.



LOL

Guess you really do care. 8^)

The thing is you don't know that it doesn't affect AT@T. I am making the assumption that it does. You are making a different assumption.

[KingHuds]

Someone using the same bandwith they would use on their phone but simply forwarding it over a local network to a computer is not going to cause any amount of extra strain onto the 3G network.

Tethering DOES NOT allow your iPhone to exceed the capped speeds that are already in place, the same exact data is being pulled down when you access a website on your phone as when you access it on your computer.


If I open a page on my phone, then use my local network, or the USB connector cable to send that data to my computer... there is no extra strain to the AT&T network.


The EULA and TOS of any hardware or software do not dictate LEGALITY, corporations do not make the laws, which is somewhat of the point you are trying to get across.

My question: Is it right for AT&T to charge you to access something that you are already paying for, but simply forwarding over ones local network? If it was simply for the app, or connector or something sure, but a monthly fee to use the data plan that you already pay for? I think they are the ones who are stealing.

[jajohns8]

...

Is it really true that a tethered computer on the iphone leads to higher bandwidth usage (And to be clear I mean data rate not total data usage)? As long as data speeds for others are not altered by the tethered I see no problem in tethering.

I am paying for unlimited total data THROUGH my iphone connection and I should be able to get it. The difference between using that data ON my iphone or through my iphone and ON my computer is immaterial. I am paying for data throughput and AT&T should not prescribe what that data is used for (imo, I don't know what the legalese for this is).

However, If it is true that tethering means I hog more than my fair share of the data rate on a given cell tower, I kind of feel some guilt. Don't know how I would fix that though. (For the record, I don't tether mostly because I don't need to... I am quite happy with the access just the iphone provides).

Cheers All.

I disagree with you saying THROUGH the phone. I don't think that's what you pay for.

[jajohns8]

Someone using the same bandwith they would use on their phone but simply forwarding it over a local network to a computer is not going to cause any amount of extra strain onto the 3G network.



If I open a page on my phone, then use my local network, or the USB connector cable to send that data to my computer... there is no extra strain to the AT&T network.

Tethering an iPhone or




And the EULA and TOS of any hardware or software do not dictate LEGALITY, corporations do not make the laws, which is somewhat of the point you are trying to get across.

My question: Is it right for AT&T to charge you to access something that you are already paying for, but simply forwarding over ones local network? If it was simply for the app, or connector or something sure, but a monthly fee to use the data plan that you already pay for? I think they are the ones who are stealing.

I cant just assume that it doesn't use more bandwidth. That is YOUR assumption.

And no, I dont think you are paying for it in the first place. You are paying to use the data for your phone. Not for what the phone can provide to something else.

[sahnert]

Even if we are more apt to use more bandwidth, it wouldn't matter BECAUSE WE HAVE AN UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF IT.

There are some problems to which there are no technical solutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons).

[The General]

Broadband cable network is different than the 3G network. I dont go home and connect to my Iphone to play Call Of Duty. Please prove to me how I don't do that. It's because they are different.

Oh, you totally misunderstood it. No wonder it made no sense. Okay, I'll retry - because it makes total sense.

I am paying my cable company for bandwidth. In the same sense, I am paying AT&T for bandwidth. They are both unlimited and have capped speeds either due to technological limitations or because I only pay for a certain speed.

AT&T telling me that I can't create a LAN that connects through my phone would be like my cable company telling me I can't create a LAN and connect through my modem.

Either way, I only have access to the same speed and amount of bandwidth (which in this case is unlimited), so the WAN takes the same load from me no matter what I do on the computer(s) that are connected through the iPhone or the cable modem.

AT&T is just micromanaging what I can and can't do with my bandwidth so they can make more money - not because it actually costs them anything extra if I tether.

Oh, and not too sure about the mafia references. I liked The Sopranos. A little.

MPAA/RIAA = MAFIAA

"You wouldn't steal a purse, would you?"

[jajohns8]

Oh, you totally misunderstood it. No wonder it made no sense. Okay, I'll retry - because it makes total sense.

I am paying my cable company for bandwidth. In the same sense, I am paying AT&T for bandwidth. They are both unlimited and have capped speeds wither due to technological limitations or because I only pay for a certain speed.

AT&T telling me that I can't create a LAN that connects through my phone would be like my cable company telling me I can't create a LAN and connect through my modem.

Either way, I only have access to the same speed and amount of bandwidth (which in this case is unlimited), so the WAN takes the same load from me no matter what I do on the computer(s) that are connected through the iPhone or the cable modem.

AT&T is just micromanaging what I can and can't do with my bandwidth so they can make more money - not because it actually costs them anything extra if I tether.



MPAA/RIAA = MAFIAA

"You wouldn't steal a purse, would you?"

Well, your cable network is different and not the same as the 3G network. It is administered differently.
Fine, I'll bite on the usage aspect.
If you burn up bandwidth by downloading bittorrent, yes you should pay more. In that sense, I am completely consistent.
Fair enough?

Well, again, you are making the assumption that it does not impact them. I am making the assumption that it does.

(I'm out for a bit, will be back sometime later.)

[iamkarlp]

My question: Is it right for AT&T to charge you to access something that you are already paying for, but simply forwarding over ones local network? If it was simply for the app, or connector or something sure, but a monthly fee to use the data plan that you already pay for? I think they are the ones who are stealing.


It is simply because AT&T is building the price of these plans based on expected usages. The expected usages models on a device such as an iphone and a computer are two _VASTLY_ different things. Even on an internet rich device such as the iPhone the amount of bandwidth a computer can eat through in half an hour can easily equal an entire day of iPhone usage.

Under that understanding - yes it is absolutely correct for them to charge in accordance with the usage.

There is a reason why the 3G datacard and 3G smartphone fees are so different what is essentially the same network and speed. It is all about expected usage.

The "unlimited" data is for the phone and the price is for the expected data usage per month that the device will typically be used in average use. They use the world unlimited because they don't charge you if you go over the computed average.

Do any of you guys have even the tiniest clue the amount of money it takes to operate networks? Billions and Billions and Billions. They aren't charging you because they woke up and said "I want to screw people over today". The prices are agonized over (as all consumer services are) and based on complex metrics to try and achieve something that will keep the networks in business (and tens of thousands of families have food on the table) while at the same time make the services affordable enough to gain wirespread adoption.

To make a truly unlimited wireless 3G data service would likely cost hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars a month.

No different than you buy unmetered business internet connections that cost 20x more than your home connection and is slower to boot.

The only way individuals such as you or I can afford these advanced services is for the providers to share the network bandwidth and bill people based on expected usage as opposed to "full time" usage.

In any event it is against the TOS, and while the companies don't make law's. The law does contain many provisions for contracts between two entities and the legal enforceability of the contracts. Unless you played a good trick you will have signed that contract before recieving your device.

If you signed the contract it doesn't matter. You probably wont be taken to court or otherwise punished for it, but it is certainly wrong.

Karl P

[The General]

If you burn up bandwidth by downloading bittorrent, yes you should pay more. In that sense, I am completely consistent.
Fair enough?

Well, no. That's not fair at all actually. I pay $30/mo for "unlimited" bandwidth. The limit is actually 6GB, so if I go over 6GB then yes, maybe I should suffer some consequence like a fee or something, but I have never gotten anywhere close to 6GB.

Bittorrent doesn't work very well through the iPhone, so I don't even use it. I tether when I'm in one of my classes because the school's wifi doesn't reach far enough to get there, and all I do is surf the web, use iChat and use Twitterrific. I rarely download files because its so frickin' slow and it makes surfing the web impossibly slow.

Well, again, you are making the assumption that it does not impact them. I am making the assumption that it does.

I guess you're just more of a pessimist than me, then. :p

[JMax1]

Arrrrr me mateys! Just keep rationalizing your actions! Just because YOU think YOU are entitled to something YOU think it's right!

You might not be using MORE bandwith at any given moment while tethered, but you might use it more frequently, surf the internet for longer periods on your laptop than physically on your iPhone. In the end you use more data, and AT&T reserves the right to charge more (tethering fee, it sucks, don't get me wrong, but that's the standard...for now) if you use it for more (yes I know unlimited is unlimited...) and not from just your iPhone. It's business ethics, not your ethics.

[cualexander]

If I buy a AT&T 3G card for my laptop, which 3g network am I using?

If I tether my computer to my iphone, which 3g network am I using?

Answer to both, the SAME AT&T 3G network. Therefore all this stuff you've been saying about "strain on the network" is ridiculous. If I download a web page on my iphone vs a web page on my computer, the bandwidth used is exactly the same. Period. End of story. The iphone's bandwidth is just transferred. No more network usage than normal.

They just want to charge you more for something you are already paying for. If anyone is stealing anything, its AT&T for charging you more.

[jajohns8]

Well, no. That's not fair at all actually. I pay $30/mo for "unlimited" bandwidth. The limit is actually 6GB, so if I go over 6GB then yes, maybe I should suffer some consequence like a fee or something, but I have never gotten anywhere close to 6GB.

Bittorrent doesn't work very well through the iPhone, so I don't even use it. I tether when I'm in one of my classes because the school's wifi doesn't reach far enough to get there, and all I do is surf the web, use iChat and use Twitterrific. I rarely download files because its so frickin' slow and it makes surfing the web impossibly slow.



I guess you're just more of a pessimist than me, then. :p

Well, again, if you aren't putting a strain on your home broadband network, fine. If you are within limits established by the provider, fine. If you do overburden the network more than the average user, you should pay more. Guess what. Tiered pricing is coming. As far as being a pessimist, I'm not. I prefer "realist." I just dont think I'm entitled to something for free.

[jajohns8]

If I buy a AT&T 3G card for my laptop, which 3g network am I using?

If I tether my computer to my iphone, which 3g network am I using?

Answer to both, the SAME AT&T 3G network. Therefore all this stuff you've been saying about "strain on the network" is ridiculous. If I download a web page on my iphone vs a web page on my computer, the bandwidth used is exactly the same. Period. End of story. The iphone's bandwidth is just transferred. No more network usage than normal.

They just want to charge you more for something you are already paying for. If anyone is stealing anything, its AT&T for charging you more.

Yet you paid for the card, right? I'm sure some of the price of the card helps pay for the network. That is within TOS. That's not a valid argument to me.
And no, I don't know that the 3g infrastructure/architecture for that mobile card is the exact same as for the iPhone.

[KingHuds]

I would be all for tiered pricing. In a month, through normal usage and tethering I got nowhere even close to 1GB through that, of course I'm not one playing, games, torrenting, or streaming anything, so if AT&T has a tiered plan where I could pay less and those that actually use the bandwidth pay more I am all for it, $30 for 5GB of non-limited data, for both on phone use and tethering would be more than I would ever use it for. I don't need unlimited data and will NOT pay $60 a month for the odd half hour I am sitting in airport that I need to use my laptop. Make those who want unlimited data pay for it, but don't charge everyone else the same then.

[cualexander]

Yet you paid for the card, right? I'm sure some of the price of the card helps pay for the network. That is within TOS. That's not a valid argument to me.
And no, I don't know that the 3g infrastructure/architecture for that mobile card is the exact same as for the iPhone.


I paid for my phone. I pay a cell phone bill every month. I pay for txt messages that cost AT&T next to nothing. Does all that not help the network? Poor AT&T, they have no money. Only a monopoly in the US on the iPhone. The laptop connect card is heavily subsidized just like the iPhone is. Its using the same towers as the iPhone uses. How do I know this? I do installs for a software company, and most of our clients are in the middle of nowhere. Anywhere, I can't get iPhone 3g signal, I can't get a 3g connect card signal either. Why do you think that is? The 3g card is not using some magical technology, its still 3g.

Unlimited is Unlimited. Thats why I leave my cable modem connection at home downloading at 1200k/sec 24/7. If I'm not downloading, I'm paying the cable company for nothing.

[Mikey B]

Yet you paid for the card, right? I'm sure some of the price of the card helps pay for the network. That is within TOS. That's not a valid argument to me.
And no, I don't know that the 3g infrastructure/architecture for that mobile card is the exact same as for the iPhone.

Of course it is the same network. Do you really believe that AT&T has 2 separate 3G networks? They would have to charge rates so high that the $60 per month you pay for a 3G card would seem like a cheeseburger of of the dollar menu at McDonald's.

The enforceability of a EULA or TOC is completely dependent upon the particular laws of the state in which the agreement is made. There is no blanket yes or no about whether breaching a EULA is "legal" or not. In some instances it may be enforceable, in others it may not. There really isn't enough precedence either way to say one way or the other. But, that being said, if AT&T learns that you have broken your TOC, then they seem to be within their rights to terminate your contract and charge you an ETF. At that point it is on you if you want to bring the matter to court to have your money returned and contract re-instated.

The OP's comments, to me, have less to do with the legality of the issue and more to do with the ethics. The real question being posited is if it is ethical for you to interpret a TOC on your own, to your own benefit and therefore allow you to tether your iPhone.

Legality has nothing to do with it.

What do I think? Honestly, I have no qualms using my iPhone to tether to the internet. I pay my $30 a month, for so-called unlimited internet access and my conscience is clear to apply that data to my computer. I'm not straining their network, I don't do anything on my laptop when connected that I don't do on my iPhone other than emailing a file or 2 for work, and frankly, I think I'm giving them fair market value for the service they are providing me. I'm not saying that makes it "right" or "legal," I'm just saying that I'm fine with it. I sleep well, wee no blood on my hands, and will continue to tether when needed.

AT&T's only motivation to prevent tethering with iPhones is that they haven't found a way to monetize it yet. If they do, and their service is compelling enough for me to use it, I'll happily pay for it. Right now, I don't have the choice and I do have the need and the means to tether, so, I'm in like Flynn with PDAnet.

[jajohns8]

I would be all for tiered pricing. In a month, through normal usage and tethering I got nowhere even close to 1GB through that, of course I'm not one playing, games, torrenting, or streaming anything, so if AT&T has a tiered plan where I could pay less and those that actually use the bandwidth pay more I am all for it, $30 for 5GB of non-limited data, for both on phone use and tethering would be more than I would ever use it for. I don't need unlimited data and will NOT pay $60 a month for the odd half hour I am sitting in airport that I need to use my laptop. Make those who want unlimited data pay for it, but don't charge everyone else the same then.

Fair enough. I'm all for paying what you use. If you use more, you should pay more. Let it be standardized and fair. To just "claim" you use less isn't good enough though.

[jajohns8]

I paid for my phone. I pay a cell phone bill every month. I pay for txt messages that cost AT&T next to nothing. Does all that not help the network? Poor AT&T, they have no money. Only a monopoly in the US on the iPhone. The laptop connect card is heavily subsidized just like the iPhone is. Its using the same towers as the iPhone uses. How do I know this? I do installs for a software company, and most of our clients are in the middle of nowhere. Anywhere, I can't get iPhone 3g signal, I can't get a 3g connect card signal either. Why do you think that is? The 3g card is not using some magical technology, its still 3g.

Unlimited is Unlimited. Thats why I leave my cable modem connection at home downloading at 1200k/sec 24/7. If I'm not downloading, I'm paying the cable company for nothing.

You paid for a cel phone that uses X amount of data for itself. Not for a cel phone that can be used as a modem for other hardware that will use Y amount of data. As long as you are within the limits of your TOS with your cable company, I have no issue with your bandwidth usage. That's not apples to apples.

[jajohns8]

Of course it is the same network. Do you really believe that AT&T has 2 separate 3G networks? They would have to charge rates so high that the $60 per month you pay for a 3G card would seem like a cheeseburger of of the dollar menu at McDonald's.

The enforceability of a EULA or TOC is completely dependent upon the particular laws of the state in which the agreement is made. There is no blanket yes or no about whether breaching a EULA is "legal" or not. In some instances it may be enforceable, in others it may not. There really isn't enough precedence either way to say one way or the other. But, that being said, if AT&T learns that you have broken your TOC, then they seem to be within their rights to terminate your contract and charge you an ETF. At that point it is on you if you want to bring the matter to court to have your money returned and contract re-instated.

The OP's comments, to me, have less to do with the legality of the issue and more to do with the ethics. The real question being posited is if it is ethical for you to interpret a TOC on your own, to your own benefit and therefore allow you to tether your iPhone.

Legality has nothing to do with it.

What do I think? Honestly, I have no qualms using my iPhone to tether to the internet. I pay my $30 a month, for so-called unlimited internet access and my conscience is clear to apply that data to my computer. I'm not straining their network, I don't do anything on my laptop when connected that I don't do on my iPhone other than emailing a file or 2 for work, and frankly, I think I'm giving them fair market value for the service they are providing me. I'm not saying that makes it "right" or "legal," I'm just saying that I'm fine with it. I sleep well, wee no blood on my hands, and will continue to tether when needed.

AT&T's only motivation to prevent tethering with iPhones is that they haven't found a way to monetize it yet. If they do, and their service is compelling enough for me to use it, I'll happily pay for it. Right now, I don't have the choice and I do have the need and the means to tether, so, I'm in like Flynn with PDAnet.

Maybe some of the hardware is the same, maybe some is different. Doesn't matter at all to me.

I don't know that the price modeling/cost structure is identical for sales of the mobile 3G cards and for the Iphones either. I don't think you know the details of that either. That's based on a complex set of metrics, as Karl P stated.

I think that when you bought your 3G card you were given bandwidth with a particular TOS.

I think when you bought your Iphone you were given bandwidth and a particular TOS as well. For your Iphone. Not for what you might hook your phone to.

When you bought your phone, you agreed to that. That's what the TOS says.

Now, you are saying it's ok to not agree to it because you "dont want to."

Wow. I wish I could not pay my mortgage because I "didnt want to."

I am the OP, and I have repeatedly said I don't really care about the "legality" of tethering because it IS unenforceable.

That has nothing to do with if it's right or wrong.

Like I said earlier, I don't throw trash out of my window when I'm driving because I don't want to act like a douche bag. Not because I'm afraid of "getting caught" or it's "technically a violation of statute 1.2356GB."

I want to know if others think it's stealing.
I think it is.

If you don't hey, that's fine.

[KingHuds]

Fair enough. I'm all for paying what you use. If you use more, you should pay more. Let it be standardized and fair. To just "claim" you use less isn't good enough though.


Its not just "claiming", have you ever checked the data usage under general settings? Yeah.

[jajohns8]

Its not just "claiming", have you ever checked the data usage under general settings? Yeah.

If you are not overburdening the network, then wonderful for you.

Is the avg./max/min rate at which the data was sent downstream reflected in that metric?

I don't think so.

I'm not sure the end total is the only metric for measuring strain on a network. In fact, I' m pretty sure its not.

Spikes and peak usage times are very important in analyzing a network.

Yeah?

[pellets007]

It sounds like you're just wanting us to say that it is stealing. Seriously, if it's causing you this much grief to debate over other's opinions, just buy the damn plan. You'll just be paying the exact same plan twice, and get the same results.

[ppc750fx]

You might not be using MORE bandwith at any given moment while tethered, but you might use it more frequently, surf the internet for longer periods on your laptop than physically on your iPhone. In the end you use more data, and AT&T reserves the right to charge more (tethering fee, it sucks, don't get me wrong, but that's the standard...for now) if you use it for more (yes I know unlimited is unlimited...) and not from just your iPhone. It's business ethics, not your ethics.

Sigh.

Look, you're basically arguing that it's wrong because AT&T TOS prohibits it.

One slight problem with using AT&T's TOS as your moral meter stick: not everyone is legally compelled to follow it.

I tether my phone all the time. I use anywhere from 500MB to 3+GB of data each month. 'course I never signed a contract, so if I pay for unlimited data I feel perfectly within my rights to use as much data as I please.

[jajohns8]

It sounds like you're just wanting us to say that it is stealing. Seriously, if it's causing you this much grief to debate over other's opinions, just buy the damn plan. You'll just be paying the exact same plan twice, and get the same results.

Well, is it stealing? What's your take? You didn't answer.

Trust me. It's not causing me any grief. Seriously. Trust me on that.

I'd just like some justification on why it's not stealing.

I havn't read anything yet that convinces me that it isnt stealing.
Can you do it?

What plan are you talking about? One that has in it's TOS the expectation that I can tether? Havnt seen that one yet.

I dont really have a need to tether, so me changing my plans doesn't apply here.

I am just posing the question on whether it is stealing or not.

[jajohns8]

Sigh.

Look, you're basically arguing that it's wrong because AT&T TOS prohibits it.

One slight problem with using AT&T's TOS as your moral meter stick: not everyone is legally compelled to follow it.

I tether my phone all the time. I use anywhere from 500MB to 3+GB of data each month. 'course I never signed a contract, so if I pay for unlimited data I feel perfectly within my rights to use as much data as I please.

We're not talking about if its legal or not. We're talking about if its stealing. (sure stealing is illegal, but lets stick with using the term stealing here.)

You pay for unlimited data that your phone uses. Not for unlimited data your phone can pass to another device.

If you use the phone, you are accepting the TOS. Thats the way it goes.

[ppc750fx]

We're not talking about if its legal or not. We're talking about if its stealing. (sure stealing is illegal, but lets stick with using the term stealing here.)

You pay for unlimited data that your phone uses. Not for unlimited data your phone can pass to another device.

Let's take a look at a definition of "steal":

verb ( past stole |stōl|; past part. stolen |ˈstōlən|)
1 [ trans. ] take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it : thieves stole her bicycle | [ intrans. ] she was found guilty of stealing from her employers | [as adj. ] ( stolen) stolen goods.
• dishonestly pass off (another person's ideas) as one's own : accusations that one group had stolen ideas from the other were soon flying.
• take the opportunity to give or share (a kiss) when it is not expected or when people are not watching : he was allowed to steal a kiss in the darkness.
• (in various sports) gain (an advantage, a run, or possession of the ball) unexpectedly or by exploiting the temporary distraction of an opponent.
• Baseball (of a base runner) advance safely to (the next base) by running to it as the pitcher begins the delivery : Rickey stole third base.
• attract the most notice in (a scene or a theatrical production) while not being the featured performer : why not be a big ham, and steal as many scenes as possible.
2 [ intrans. ] move somewhere quietly or surreptitiously : he stole down to the kitchen | figurative a delicious languor was stealing over her.
• [ trans. ] direct (a look) quickly and unobtrusively : he stole a furtive glance at her.

According to that definition, it's not stealing. I'm not taking any property from my carrier. I am, instead, simply using a legally-obtained service in a manner they don't like. Maybe not the kindest thing to do to the poor multi-million dollar international company, but I certainly don't see any moral objection.

If you use the phone, you are accepting the TOS. Thats the way it goes.

No. That's not the way it goes. There is no legal precedent for that, and frankly, I find the entire concept that a company can dictate what you can and cannot do with hardware that you rightfully purchased utterly absurd.

Look, you want me to agree that it's wrong to do something that a major company doesn't like solely on the basis that they don't like it. This attitude irritates me to no end; it's become popular in recent years and is a near-complete reversal of the concept of consumer rights (and indeed, of many of the basic rights upon which the principles of capitalism are built.) If anything, I'd argue that those attacking the centuries-old concept of personal property are the ones in the wrong...

[KingHuds]

Once the data is on my phone, I can do anything I want with said data, including pass it over a local network. Guess what that does to AT&Ts network? Nothing. My local wifi or wired connection does NOTHING to the 3G network.
When I SSH into my phone am I causing a strain on the network? No, its a similar idea with tethering, the laptop doesn't magically get the data from the network, and theoretically, if the 3G speeds are so great, browsing on the phone should be the same as on the laptop.

[pellets007]

It's not stealing. If anything, AT&T is stealing from you, should you pay the plan. It doesn't affect their traffic flow at all because it's the exact same data.

By plan I mean, the $30 data plan and a plan for tethering.

[jajohns8]

Let's take a look at a definition of "steal":



According to that definition, it's not stealing. I'm not taking any property from my carrier. I am, instead, simply using a legally-obtained service in a manner they don't like. Maybe not the kindest thing to do to the poor multi-million dollar international company, but I certainly don't see any moral objection.



No. That's not the way it goes. There is no legal precedent for that, and frankly, I find the entire concept that a company can dictate what you can and cannot do with hardware that you rightfully purchased utterly absurd.

Look, you want me to agree that it's wrong to do something that a major company doesn't like solely on the basis that they don't like it. This attitude irritates me to no end; it's become popular in recent years and is a near-complete reversal of the concept of consumer rights (and indeed, of many of the basic rights upon which the principles of capitalism are built.) If anything, I'd argue that those attacking the centuries-old concept of personal property are the ones in the wrong...

Not really.
Can you afford to build your own 3G network?

Didn't think so. You don't own the 3G network.

They can charge whatever they want under whatever terms they want, for people to use it. They built it. Not you.

If they want to charge 1 finger and 10,000.00$ a month, they can do that.

Just because you dont like the TOS, that you agreed to when you bought the phone, BTW, doesnt mean it's right to violate it because "you want to."

You own the phone.

You agree to use their network, that they built (because you cannot build one by yourself) as they want you too. (The TOS states this.)

I have always maintained we aren't talking about legality.

Capitalism is not about getting something you think you are owed for "free."


If you cant live by the terms you agreed to when you bought it, why buy it in the first place?
You pay to have data for your phone. Not to have the data piped where you want just cause you "want to."

[cualexander]

It sounds like OP works for AT&T.... Poor AT&T, losing so much money from people not paying for tethering.... do they even give you the legal option at the moment? Nope.

AT&T blows. The only reason I have them is because I have no choice.

[QuarterSwede]

Not really.
Can you afford to build your own 3G network?

Didn't think so. You don't own the 3G network.

They can charge whatever they want under whatever terms they want, for people to use it. They built it. Not you.

You agree to use their network, that they built (because you cannot build one by yourself) as they want you too. (The TOS states this.)


If you cant live by the terms you agreed to when you bought it, why buy it in the first place?
+1

[ppc750fx]

Not really.
Can you afford to build your own 3G network?

Didn't think so. You don't own the 3G network.

Actually, I do own a part of it. A large portion of AT&T's mid-90s - early oughts infrastructure build out was done using money gained from taxpayer-sponsored tax cuts, subsidies, and right of way grants.

That's not actually the reason I think tethering is OK, but it's worth pointing that out anyways.

They can charge whatever they want under whatever terms they want, for people to use it. They built it. Not you.

If they want to charge 1 finger and 10,000.00$ a month, they can do that.

Just because you dont like the TOS, that you agreed to when you bought the phone, BTW, doesnt mean it's right to violate it because "you want to."

Your logic works perfectly. Assuming I signed an agreement not to tether.

But I didn't. I didn't sign it when I bought the phone. I didn't sign it as part of a contract. I specifically obtained my phone without signing any contract because I want as few people trying to limit my usage of the device as possible.

You own the phone.
[...]
Capitalism is not about getting something you think you are owed for "free."

No, but one of the principles of capitalism is the concept of ownership and what it entails. The commonly-accepted concept of property that we have in the US allows anyone to modify or even destroy their own property without having to first ask permission from the manufacturer.

If you cant live by the terms you agreed to when you bought it, why buy it in the first place?
You pay to have data for your phone. Not to have the data piped where you want just cause you "want to."

Because the device manufacturer doesn't have one damn bit of say in what I do with my devices after I purchase them. They want to, they really do, but they don't.

[anjinha]

Some people use their iPhones to stream music, with Pandora, Simplify Media or web radios. If they do it a lot that can use a lot of bandwidth and consume more data. Is that wrong? Is that more wrong than people who use tethering once in a while to check a few websites?

Assuming that people are going to use their unlimited data plans to download torrents by tethering their iPhones is like when music companies wanted apple to pay them for each iPod sold, because they assumed people were going to use them to store illegal music...