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MacBytes
Mar 22, 2004, 09:06 PM
Category: News and Press Releases
Link: EU to fine Microsoft $613.5 million; analysts, critics unimpressed with \'traffic ticket\'
(http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20040322220633)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

Stella
Mar 22, 2004, 09:45 PM
Category: News and Press Releases
Link: EU to fine Microsoft $613.5 million; analysts, critics unimpressed with \'traffic ticket\'
(http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20040322220633)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

$613 million... PLUS any sactions the EU chooses to impose on Microsoft.

Fortunately, unlike the US, any punishment that is given is effective immediately until they are overturned by the courts.. i.e., if EU tells MS to remove Media Player- this must be done immediately and not onhold whilst MS are appealling.

Remember, this fine plus further sactions the EU place on Microsoft are far more than what the US DOJ handed to MS. Fortunately EU have backbone.. and no, its not because MS is a non EU company - the EU are quite ready to hand out hefty fines to its own companies - which they have done - for example, to car manufacturers (VW - I think) who chose to restrict sales to member EU countries.

MS fully deserve any such fines... they have been getting anyway with 'murder' for years and years.

TwitchOSX
Mar 22, 2004, 09:49 PM
If M$ wants to try to fight this saying that Europe cant do that because the US already regulates them, then I say Europe block imports of Windows to Europe. "They dont want to pay the fine we lay down, then nobody in Europe can use Windows". Turn to Linux and Macs. And anyway.. if Europe is imposing this large fine on MS.. I wonder what the US imposed on Microsoft. Remember that whole deal with MS a few years ago where they were being investigates by the Department of Justice? What did Microsoft have to pay for that? Oh man.. Will and Grace is on and DAMN Grace is hot..... want to touch the hiney... SOOO HOT!


OH.. back to topic. So.. Basically, Mac good, Windows bad. (lost my train of thought.. Grace.. is on tv.. .. must go... )

winmacguy
Mar 22, 2004, 11:19 PM
I can' t remember his name but the guy in the EU who is incharge of the anti trust investigations against MS is a fairly prominent economist as opposed to being a lawyer. This means that he is less likely to be swayed by the BS that MS keeps spouting. He would be more aware of the economic implications of the penalty and the importance of them than only slapping MS with a monetary fine.

Nermal
Mar 23, 2004, 12:32 AM
Just to quote Photorun:

<Nelson>Ha Haaaa!</Nelson>

cr2sh
Mar 23, 2004, 06:28 AM
Reuters reports, "As well as the fine, Microsoft is to be ordered to offer a version of its Windows operating system without Windows Media Player and to encourage computer makers to provide other audiovisual software.

What's the problem with including windows media player? :confused:

Why isn't there a problem with including itunes with osX?

Stella
Mar 23, 2004, 07:12 AM
You could also say that about including IE with Windows....

MS have vastly more market share than apple and therefore use the windows platform to push their own standards, at the decrement to competitors. In the original XP versions (I don't know if this is still the case), you could not play MP3s - WM Player didn't support MP3s, you had to download a third party app - or buy their "Windows Plus pack" to add MP3 support. MP3 is a standard, now MS didn't even support this format!!!!!!


Also, in the past, MS have forced OEMs NOT to bundle competitors apps such as QuickTime, Real, Netscape, through limiting licensing agreements - i.e, "If you bundle Netscape, your Windows license will be revoked". OEMs, will not want do lose their MS licenses now, will they?

Hell - in the days of DOS, Microsoft FORCED oems to pay for MS-DOS even if a PC didn't even ship with MS-DOS!!

Until recently, MS would put into any agreement with companies if they formed a business relationship, "You will not sue us for I.Ps that we might use".. i.e., MS could use partners IPs / Patents without fear of litigation - they could freely use a companies patented technologies freely - without licensing.

Talk about quashing the competition, and unfair competition.

If MS hadn't made IE 'a part of' windows (which is isn't), it would never have 95% usage.

IF Apple were in MS position, they would also be finding themselves in the same position when it comes to iTunes, QuickTime etc.


What's the problem with including windows media player? :confused:

Why isn't there a problem with including itunes with osX?

Rasmuskl
Mar 23, 2004, 08:04 AM
You could also say that about including IE with Windows....

MS have vastly more market share than apple and therefore use the windows platform to push their own standards, at the decrement to competitors. In the original XP versions (I don't know if this is still the case), you could not play MP3s - WM Player didn't support MP3s, you had to download a third party app - or buy their "Windows Plus pack" to add MP3 support. MP3 is a standard, now MS didn't even support this format!!!!!!


Also, in the past, MS have forced OEMs NOT to bundle competitors apps such as QuickTime, Real, Netscape, through limiting licensing agreements - i.e, "If you bundle Netscape, your Windows license will be revoked". OEMs, will not want do lose their MS licenses now, will they?

Hell - in the days of DOS, Microsoft FORCED oems to pay for MS-DOS even if a PC didn't even ship with MS-DOS!!

Until recently, MS would put into any agreement with companies if they formed a business relationship, "You will not sue us for I.Ps that we might use".. i.e., MS could use partners IPs / Patents without fear of litigation - they could freely use a companies patented technologies freely - without licensing.

Talk about quashing the competition, and unfair competition.

If MS hadn't made IE 'a part of' windows (which is isn't), it would never have 95% usage.

IF Apple were in MS position, they would also be finding themselves in the same position when it comes to iTunes, QuickTime etc.


YEs and no. You can remove any of the apps from OSX and leave it running. You can remove quicktime, Itunes etc. It still leaves part of the engine so OS X still works but you can fully replace it as an App. MS is arguing that if you remove IE and/or WMP that the OS is crippled, and that is why it should stay.

hansen
Mar 23, 2004, 08:17 AM
What's the problem with including windows media player? :confused:

Why isn't there a problem with including itunes with osX?

The problem arises when MS uses their monopoly status to win in other markets - first the browser, now media centers. MS media center would probably never win on its on merrits but only through the position of Windows. If it could it would probably not have been offered in Windows for free.

Stella
Mar 23, 2004, 08:33 AM
If you remove QuickTime - including its frameworks, wouldn't iTunes stop working?

I thought iTunes relied on the QuickTime engine? (not the app, but the framework)

YEs and no. You can remove any of the apps from OSX and leave it running. You can remove quicktime, Itunes etc. It still leaves part of the engine so OS X still works but you can fully replace it as an App. MS is arguing that if you remove IE and/or WMP that the OS is crippled, and that is why it should stay.

1macker1
Mar 23, 2004, 08:45 AM
I say if MS has to remove WMP, Apple should have to remove iTunes. If MS has to remove IE, Apple should have to remove Safari.

nubero
Mar 23, 2004, 12:47 PM
I say if MS has to remove WMP, Apple should have to remove iTunes. If MS has to remove IE, Apple should have to remove Safari.

But Apple also ships IE even if it isn't in the dock for a quick find... and when the dicontinued IE stops working they could include another browser. Wich they probably won't do but as said earlier you can remove and replace every app with the ones you like...

About the fine: It's nothing if you just look at the money. Just heard the news today, that the 500B fine would be the biggest ever in the EU history but it is only 1% of the money that M$ has in their cash cow right now. Hope they are getting through though with the removal of Windows Media or the inclusion of other Media Players.

--- --- --- --- ---
My free Desktop Pictures!
http://homepage.mac.com/nuber

1macker1
Mar 23, 2004, 04:30 PM
Safari wasnt availble when MS shipped XP. Plue MS use to make IE available for Macs....Safari wont work with Windows.
But Apple also ships IE even if it isn't in the dock for a quick find... and when the dicontinued IE stops working they could include another browser. Wich they probably won't do but as said earlier you can remove and replace every app with the ones you like...

About the fine: It's nothing if you just look at the money. Just heard the news today, that the 500B fine would be the biggest ever in the EU history but it is only 1% of the money that M$ has in their cash cow right now. Hope they are getting through though with the removal of Windows Media or the inclusion of other Media Players.

--- --- --- --- ---
My free Desktop Pictures!
http://homepage.mac.com/nuber

nubero
Mar 23, 2004, 04:57 PM
Safari wasnt availble when MS shipped XP. Plue MS use to make IE available for Macs....Safari wont work with Windows.

You got me totally wrong on this one. Mac OS X had IE installed since 10.0 and other browsers were (are) aviable. When Apple developed and of course shipped Safari in OS X they still kept IE (probably because of that old MS/Apple deal). I was never talking about Windows here...

misunderstanding? :confused:

--- --- --- --- ---
My free Desktop Pictures!
http://homepage.mac.com/nuber

SiliconAddict
Mar 23, 2004, 07:30 PM
What's the problem with including windows media player? :confused:

Why isn't there a problem with including itunes with osX?


Because Apple doesnít own 97% of the market.

Let me give you a nice example.
The upcoming music wars that will invariable be Microsoft vs. Apple.
The problem with bundling in regards to Microsoft's situation is that no one can even attempt to successfully engage Microsoft due to the massive advertisement platform that they have (e.g. Windows.) Microsoft simply has to make media player default to their music store. The next version of IE to default to the music store. Install Office? It changes your default web page to the music store. Install a new MS game? Defaults to the music store and places a nice icon on your desktop going to the music store. Run windows update for the patch of the week for IE and yep you guessed it defaults to the music store.
Microsoft can saturate their platform so completely that its competitors don't have a snowballs chance in hell of competing. This is the root of the problem with Microsoft. If this was any other company people would be rolling their eyes. But Microsoft is a monopoly and you can NOT treat a monopoly like any average company. This is the root problem that many pro-microsoft advocates just do not understand. Intentional or not Microsoft is hurting the market when it comes to innovation and choice. This was why Microsoft was found guilty in that neutered antitrust trial. But instead of setting things straight like the DOJ should have they slapped MS on the wrist and let them go. Antitrust rules are here for a reason in this country. If Microsoft was forced to remove IE, and media player from Windows and allowed the OEM to make the choice as to which browser to use you would see iTunes and FireFox make short work out of Media Player and Internet Imploder. Simply put the only reason these apps own the market is because Microsoft owns the market.
Also as someone else commented if the rolls were reversed and it was Apple who had 95% of the market damn tooting I'd expect them to have to play fair as well. Iím not anti-Microsoft Iím pro fair play.

kaylee
Mar 23, 2004, 09:57 PM
I say if MS has to remove WMP, Apple should have to remove iTunes. If MS has to remove IE, Apple should have to remove Safari.
Windows media player cannot be removed/uninstalled from windows xp (i've tried my hardest but to no avail). Same goes for Internet explorer and a few other programs. The big problem with including these things in the operating system and not allowing them to be removed, is you end up with things like what happened with IE/Netscape - people will use the program because it is already there and its "free" (in the sense that its including in the OS cost), and with MS's market share they can easily trample over any competition. And for people that have limited hard drive space (like i currently do), you can't really go and use too many alternative programs before you simply run out of space.
While itunes is included with OSX, as pointed out by other people you can remove it if you don't want it - and the same is true for most apps on OSX. Also, IE is included alongside safari, so apple are not limiting you to only their own browser with what comes preinstalled.
This is about MS being monopolistic by integrating so many things into the OS and doing it in such a way that the OS is dependent on them being there just to function, thereby removing a lot of choice.

MrMacMan
Mar 23, 2004, 10:26 PM
Its too much for any company.

Force them to make a new XP rebranded ... give 150 mill to apple... 200 mill to the linux coders... and 150 to real network...


And we are done.

SiliconAddict
Mar 24, 2004, 12:50 PM
Its too much for any company.

Force them to make a new XP rebranded ... give 150 mill to apple... 200 mill to the linux coders... and 150 to real network...


And we are done.

Er....nope. Microsoft has 50 billion in the bank. This may be the equivilent of a bee sting to them. It hurts a bit but they rub the sore spot and move on. Now if the UE did 2 billion in fines....ouch.


They already have done this.............Cropped Windows already exists (http://news.com.com/2100-1014_3-5177455.html?tag=nefd_top)

SiliconAddict
Mar 24, 2004, 12:53 PM
And as for the inability to remove media player. ************. Media player is no more integrated into Windows then any other media player. The only thing that MIGHT be integrated is the ability to preview a clip in Windows explorer and that would take all of probably a day to recode for other media players.
Otherwise its a media player like any other. When it comes right down to it Microsoft is a lying sack of bull ****.