PDA

View Full Version : MotherBoards and iTunes


arn
Jun 17, 2002, 08:33 AM
MacOS Rumors (http://www.macosrumors.com/) reports to expect MP4 enabled iTunes to come along with Jaguar this (late) summer... as well as 8x AGP, 800Mbps Firewire as well as USB 2.

Details of Apple's adoption of USB 2 has been limited. As well, Apple's ability to bring us Firewire 2 by July was brought into question by this article (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/05/20020523082020.shtml).

Backtothemac
Jun 17, 2002, 08:44 AM
The future is so bright. I've gota wear shades.

This is basically what I had heard from jump this year about July, except that 8X AGP, and the MP4 enabled iTunes. It will be interesting to see what happens. I cannot remember the last time that MacOSrumors was correct on a rumor so we have to take this with a grain of salt you know.

Anyway, hope it is true.

dantec
Jun 17, 2002, 08:53 AM
M4??? What is that? Are you guys talking about hardware accelerated iTunes visualizations?

jelloshotsrule
Jun 17, 2002, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by dantec
M4??? What is that? Are you guys talking about hardware accelerated iTunes visualizations?

m4 as in mpeg 4, the codec that is included with qt 6 and deals with video and aac audio... ie. itunes will be able to handle the new codec which allows for better quality with smaller filesize (supposedly).

the mpeg4 licensing issue is what has been holding up the release of qt 6 for so long... or is at least part of the problem

Mr. Anderson
Jun 17, 2002, 09:06 AM
I'd heard about the 8xAPG, and we'll all saw the red mobo that was up for sale at ebay and its 'odd' port, so the firewire 2 / USB 2 possibility is definitely there. But for Apple to incorporate so many changes, well, thats awesome if they can do it. We'll have to wait and see.

crassusad44
Jun 17, 2002, 09:09 AM
MOSR sounds a bit optimistic on this one... But if it came true, I would be drooling all over the place... :D :p :) :D :::cool:::

dantec
Jun 17, 2002, 09:36 AM
Oh, sorry about that.

I feel like such an idiot now! Oubiously it was M4 = MPEG 4.

I knew that... :cool:

dantec
Jun 17, 2002, 10:16 AM
So just a question... what does hardware have to do with MP4?

Are you trying to say that iTunes will be hardware accelerated with MP4?? It doesn't make sense. I don't see apple adding a chip inside thier machines just for Mp4.

Bradcoe
Jun 17, 2002, 11:07 AM
MP4 and AAC aren't they same thing are they? I thought AAC is what MPEG4 video uses for sound tracks. I've never heard of MP4 audio. All I've heard is that AAC is superior to MP3 in everyway. Can someone shed some light on these audio codec differences please.

dantec
Jun 17, 2002, 11:13 AM
I think that is what they meant. AAC is a part of MP4, from what I understand.

Kethoticus
Jun 17, 2002, 11:13 AM
Mac OS Rumors? Ha. There's a reputable source for ya. The Expo's announcements won't come close to these rumors. Someone may ask, "What are you? Some kind of expert? How do you know?" And I'd say, "Fair question. Here's a fair answer: history. History dictates that Apple has never come close to these kinds of grandiose rumor realizations during their bi-annual shows."

I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I just have no faith in Apple breaking any major barriers anytime soon, if ever. I'd be happy if they just came close to keeping up.

dantec
Jun 17, 2002, 11:23 AM
Anyone remember the iPod and MOSR??? They thought it would be some digital home device, or something like that. So way off! I mean they could have said the iPod was a coffee machine and they would have been closer!

eyelikeart
Jun 17, 2002, 11:36 AM
my head is starting to spin a bit...mostly because I did not keep up with this discussion a couple months ago...

Does this mean that anything mp3 compatible won't be the same with mp4?

Will mp4 be backwards compatible with mp3?

What will happen to portable mp3 players, other than the iPod, which do not rely on software updates in order to be on top?

my apologies for my ignorance ahead of time... ;)

dantec
Jun 17, 2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by eyelikeart
my head is starting to spin a bit...mostly because I did not keep up with this discussion a couple months ago...

Does this mean that anything mp3 compatible won't be the same with mp4?

Will mp4 be backwards compatible with mp3?

What will happen to portable mp3 players, other than the iPod, which do not rely on software updates in order to be on top?

my apologies for my ignorance ahead of time... ;)

No there is no such thing of MP4. (not to my knowledge). In MPEG 4 the audio codec is called AAC. It is not backward compatible, you will have to convert everything in iTunes to AAC (only if u want to). The advantages are smaller file size & better quality.

Yes the iPod will make it. It has an ARM processor, and those are fine to upgrade. Plus none of the iPod's system software is on ROM or RAM (stored in a folder on the hard drive). So if Apple decides to release a patch, it will be able to handle the files.

blogo
Jun 17, 2002, 11:51 AM
What about iTunes and Ogg Vorbis support?

dantec
Jun 17, 2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Eple
What about iTunes and Ogg Vorbis support?

I have no clue what a ogg vorbis is!?!

Ouroboros
Jun 17, 2002, 12:10 PM
At this point I'd believe anything MOSR says about as much as believing in something that Architosh says...

suzerain
Jun 17, 2002, 12:15 PM
I wouldn't hold your breath for Ogg Vorbis support just yet; it looks like Apple is doing a 'bet the company' kind of thing with MPEG4.

I've been testing out MP4/AAC, and it completely blows me away. The quality is astounding, especially for small file sizes that you could deploy on the Web. IMO, it makes MP3 *and* Ogg Vorbis kinda pale in comparison.

My thinking is that it'll take the Ogg Vorbis dev crew a year or two to catch up with MP4, which will be a good thing, since the MPEG4 licensing stuff pretty much blows.

But, to reiterate, MPEG4 really rocks as a codec. Since I haven't bought an iPod yet, I've decided I won't buy an iPod until MP4 is supported. It's that good.

eric_n_dfw
Jun 17, 2002, 12:54 PM
MP4 really is a bad way to market MPEG-4. Well, actually, MP3 is the one with the problem. Most here know this, but to those who don't, MP3 does NOT stand for MPEG-3; it's short for MPEG Layer 3 (see http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/techinf/layer3/index.html for details) as in MPEG-1.

There's also MPEG-2 (which is used by DSS Satelite and DVD's) who's audio layer is called AAC (Advanced Audio Coding) and now, MPEG-4. MPEG-4 also calls it's audio layer AAC.

I don't know if there even is an MPEG-3 - mabye the MPEG people skipped it to avoid confusion with MP3.

If MPEG-4 AAC takes off the way Apple hopes it will, I would bet that it will get tagged "MP4" by the marketing people though.

Just realize that MPEG-4 AAC is NOT MP3 and that portable MP3 players won't be able to play them...

... unless they are upgradable like the iPod! :D Personally, I bet the iPod is capable of playing them (with a firmware update) today. This would make it the 1st "MP4" player on the market with a userbase already there!

Sweet! :D

Meek
Jun 17, 2002, 01:01 PM
Don't believe any rumors that contain a claim that Apple will be adopting USB 2.

Ain't gonna happen.

Apple is still fighting for FireWire's acceptance, and some camcorder manufacturers are thinking of going USB 2 over FireWire. (Sony.)

Apple is also pushing for digital still camera manufacturers to use FireWire over USB or USB 2.

For Apple to do USB 2 on Macs now, wouldn't jibe.

Apple isn't interested in lending the USB 2 standard a helping hand at this point.

I think eventually Apple will go with USB 2, but not any time soon.

Probably late 2003 at the earliest. (I'm guessing.):confused:

dantec
Jun 17, 2002, 01:25 PM
How bout: USB 2.0 one macworld after firewirre II or gigawire.

For example lets take MWNY: Powermac with Gigawire and USB.

MWSF: Powermac with Gigawire and USB 2.0

Apple would do this, forcing the camcorder developers to support them. All of this Aple buying these 3d moddeling apps, dvd authoring and camcorder apps all makes sense. Apple wants to make the complete video authoring system (with burning, editing and 3d modeling i.e. special effects). That way they can force their standard to component makers, or like Sony, so that their main customer is Apple and they must support their technology.

eunuchs
Jun 17, 2002, 01:32 PM
AFAIK, mp4 is the three letter file extension for MPEG-4 video (and possibly audio). Why they couldn't have called it .mpeg4 is beyond me. No modern OS has trouble with a three-letter file extension.

It's a silly extension, but then, naming MPEG-1, Layer 3 .mp3 is also silly.

edesignuk
Jun 17, 2002, 01:32 PM
I think FireWire is the future, and I would support in Apple steaming on ahead with it, it simply kicks USB a$$!
And to me there seems to be more and more hardware that supports firewire.
Apple have put firewire ports in theirs machines for as long as I can remember (was it first standard in the good ol' iMac?), PC's are still behind, there are not many that come with it even now, they stuck with the s-l-o-w speeds of USB.
When I got my iPod (firewire of course) and told my mates how quickly it could shift the music from the Powermac to the iPod they couldn't believe how fast it was. :D

edesignuk
Jun 17, 2002, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by eunuchs
AFAIK, mp4 is the three letter file extension for MPEG-4 video (and possibly audio). Why they couldn't have called it .mpeg4 is beyond me. No modern OS has trouble with a three-letter file extension.

It's a silly extension, but then, naming MPEG-1, Layer 3 .mp3 is also silly.
I should think they're just keeping up with the norm, pretty much all file extns are 3 characters long.
.jpg, .mov, .bmp, .exe, .app, .dll, .ini, .inf...
I know there are also some 4 character extns, .jpeg, .mpeg, .tiff, but I don't know of any other file type with a extn of 5 characters as you are suggesting (.mpeg4)

eunuchs
Jun 17, 2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by verbose101

I know there are also some 4 character extns, .jpeg, .mpeg, .tiff, but I don't know of any other file type with a extn of 5 characters as you are suggesting (.mpeg4) All those extensions date back over a decade. Even .app, with it's NextStep lineage.

I admit, there aren't exactly (m)any 5-letter extensions, but what's stopping them from introducing one? Even .mpg4 would be better, imho.

edesignuk
Jun 17, 2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by eunuchs
All those extensions date back over a decade. Even .app, with it's NextStep lineage.

I admit, there aren't exactly (m)any 5-letter extensions, but what's stopping them from introducing one? Even .mpg4 would be better, imho.
I'm sorry but I really don't see the pont of making an extn longer than it has to be, what's wrong with mp3/mp4 etc? :confused:

dantec
Jun 17, 2002, 02:00 PM
Yeah plus, the stupid windoze people wouldn't understand, and M$ is too lazy to rewrite their code!

Backtothemac
Jun 17, 2002, 02:06 PM
Um, no. The system at the core uses three letter extensions. So, to do what you ask, they would have to start from scratch. Not very smart. Nor would it be very smooth. Keep it the way that it is. 3 letter extensions.

eunuchs
Jun 17, 2002, 02:55 PM
Well, the problem with using .mp4 is that MPEG-4 is a video format, while .mp3 is strictly audio. Right off the bat you'll be confusing people. It's an arbitrary restriction with no real purpose other than to make life easier for Microsoft.

Also, B2TM, NT-based Windows OSes (NT, 2000, XP) have no 8.3 filenaming restriction. NT, using NTFS, allows for filenames up to 255 characters in length and generates a secondary 8.3 entry in the file table for compatibility with older apps. IIRC, 95/98/Me (and NT on VFAT) do the opposite; they use 8.3 filenames and generate a second long filename for the user to see.

Omen88
Jun 17, 2002, 02:58 PM
Am I missing out on something? If AAC is meant by mp4 then what's new? I can already play AAC files with iTunes. If you don't believe me, download quicktime 6, open an mp3 (or any other audio file), export it to mpeg4 audio and open it with iTunes. It works. (providing you have quicktime pro of course)

And some years ago mp4 was named after an mp3 contained in an .exe, so you wouldn't need an mp3 player anymore (for windoze users that is).

But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and maybe I misunderstood something about that mp4 in iTunes.

Hell I'm confuzed hehe

eric_n_dfw
Jun 17, 2002, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by eunuchs Also, B2TM, NT-based Windows OSes (NT, 2000, XP) have no 8.3 filenaming restriction. NT, using NTFS, allows for filenames up to 255 characters in length and generates a secondary 8.3 entry in the file table for compatibility with older apps. IIRC, 95/98/Me (and NT on VFAT) do the opposite; they use 8.3 filenames and generate a second long filename for the user to see.
Unfortunately, not all app programmers are smart enough to move out of the old 8.3 days. I'm running Win2K and tried renaming a file to .mpeg3 from .mp3. I then tried opening it in the latest version of MusicMatch and it won't open it (no error either - it just sits there!). Rename it back to .mp3 and it works fine. Go figure! (tried dbl-click in explorer, drag and drop and file open in MusicMatch BTW - none work)

3G4N
Jun 17, 2002, 04:24 PM
eunuchs said:
"Well, the problem with using .mp4 is that MPEG-4 is a video format... "

MPEG-4 is an architecture. It's not just a video codec.
It's modeled after QT, with different tracks, even a layer
for including interactivity.

.mp4 is kinda like the wrapper around all the
mpeg-4 video, AAC audio, text, and other tracks...

MPEG-4, its not just for breakfast anymore...

Here's a crash course in MPEG-4, given by the
Prez of the MPEG-4 group... (google-fied)
http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cache:NKzn2ICdAZkC:www.m4if.org/resources/techretreat2002/Koenen.pdf+mpeg-4+architecture+interactivity&hl=en&ie=UTF8

As for MPEG-4's moniker, mp4 seems to fit just fine
as a name and as an extension. Rolls off the tongue
easy enough. Keep It Simple Suckas!

And Omen88, there seems to be proof in your pudding
about iTunes, iPod and MP4/AAC compatibility... woo-hoo!

And did anyone see that Sony-Ericsson ChatPen link
in that macosrumors article? Ten bucks says Apple's
got one in the coming months. It's totally doable.
Hell, it's done already (just not on the market : )
Do I even need to say Inkwell?

Backtothemac
Jun 17, 2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by eunuchs
Well, the problem with using .mp4 is that MPEG-4 is a video format, while .mp3 is strictly audio. Right off the bat you'll be confusing people. It's an arbitrary restriction with no real purpose other than to make life easier for Microsoft.

Also, B2TM, NT-based Windows OSes (NT, 2000, XP) have no 8.3 filenaming restriction. NT, using NTFS, allows for filenames up to 255 characters in length and generates a secondary 8.3 entry in the file table for compatibility with older apps. IIRC, 95/98/Me (and NT on VFAT) do the opposite; they use 8.3 filenames and generate a second long filename for the user to see.

8.3 filenames means that it has 255 characters, but only three letter extensions. So does the Mac if I am not mistaken.

Rower_CPU
Jun 17, 2002, 05:19 PM
They have two choices for naming MPEG4 audio:

1) Use AAC, which would be more technically correct, but potentially confusing for consumers.

2) Use MP4, which makes more sense to consumers as a progression from MP3, but is less technically correct.

Needless to say, I'm waiting to rip any more CDs until iTunes supports it.:D

Nipsy
Jun 17, 2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac


8.3 filenames means that it has 255 characters, but only three letter extensions. So does the Mac if I am not mistaken.

I thought 8.3 meant eight letter name, three letter extension:

WIN32NSW.DLL

This is what is produced when my Windows namer converts using 8.3.

If 8.3 were in bits, it would be 256 name & 8 extension characters.

blukens
Jun 17, 2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Nipsy


I thought 8.3 meant eight letter name, three letter extension:

WIN32NSW.DLL

This is what is produced when my Windows namer converts using 8.3.

If 8.3 were in bits, it would be 256 name & 8 extension characters.

You're right, 8.3 is an 8 letter name, then a 3 letter extension, as seen in DOS. Today, every single widely used OS supports file names up to 255 characters, and of those 255 characters any number may be designated as an extension. A period is just another character. This is true of OS X, Linux, Win95+, WinNT, etc. (OS 9, of course, is limited to 31 characters. But the extension can, again, be any number of those 31 characters). There is no technical reason to limit an extension to only three characters. Of course, that doesn't make any difference. However inaccurate it may be, calling MPEG-4 "mp4" has a great marketing advantage by positioning it as the logical successor to the ever popular "mp3". And that isn't even too far from the truth...

Omen88
Jun 17, 2002, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Nipsy


I thought 8.3 meant eight letter name, three letter extension:

WIN32NSW.DLL

This is what is produced when my Windows namer converts using 8.3.

If 8.3 were in bits, it would be 256 name & 8 extension characters.

Wouldn't that be 256 bits for name and 24 bits for extension characters? A char is 8 bits, so 3*8 for the extension.

Omen88
Jun 17, 2002, 09:14 PM
umm nevermind.. it's 4am in the morning, sleepless summer nights can do lots of brain damage :)

alex_ant
Jun 17, 2002, 11:07 PM
Ideally, MPEG 4 files wouldn't have any extensions at all because we'd all be out of the 1980s far enough to realize how arcane they are (file extensions). Have we learned nothing from BeOS?

Alex

Beigean
Jun 17, 2002, 11:52 PM
in response to eric_n_dfw, DVDs don't use AAC, but rather .ac3 audio. open up a dvd in the finder and you'll see. it confused me too when i first read about aac.

as for eunuchs' topic of there not being any 5-letter extensions, OS X has a lot of files with extensions at least 5 characters in length, the most common one being preference files with the extension ".plist". Even longer extensions include ".component" and ".FCacheSystemDomain".

eric_n_dfw
Jun 18, 2002, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by Beigean
in response to eric_n_dfw, DVDs don't use AAC, but rather .ac3 audio. open up a dvd in the finder and you'll see. it confused me too when i first read about aac.
Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse that issue. Besides, my posts are usually way too long as it is!

j763
Jun 18, 2002, 06:34 PM
The average consumer wont give a $#!+ about the technologies used... they just want to hear more and store less, so MP4 is great. MP4 is fine for video as well. and newayz, the extention mp4 is being used currently for MPEG4 Video and MPEG4 AAC Audio.... so its a bit too late to start complaining about the file names.

Nipsy
Jun 18, 2002, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Omen88


Wouldn't that be 256 bits for name and 24 bits for extension characters? A char is 8 bits, so 3*8 for the extension.

I was going of off 2 to the 8th power, and 2 to the 3rd power, based on the initial posters, 255 (+ .) + 3 statement.

I forgot bits/bytes/math when math libraries met OO programming.

sluthy
Jun 19, 2002, 03:55 AM
How about .aac? What's wrong with that?

Three letters, exclusive to audio, no abbreviation. How about it?

gralem
Jun 19, 2002, 09:22 AM
The deal with iTunes is that it will become compatible with AAC, which is the audio layer of MPEG-4 (as many people have already noted in this forum). The announcement was already mady by Steve Jobs at WWDC. iTunes in 10.2 supports AAC.

---gralem