Lossless. Can there be an even better format?

[Quasiperfectto]

I have converted all my iTunes library mp3 to Apple Lossless to get rid of the slight distortion sound at 128 bit. But the problem is that I still can detect a very minor distortion in the highs. Is there another way I can further enhance the sound via apple Itunes etc... Thanks

[r.j.s]

If you converted to lossless from the mp3 file, then no. You'd have to reimport all the music from CD.

[WinterMute]

Your problem is that converting MP3 to lossless simply re-encodes the artifacts from the MP3.

Re-rip your CD's to get the best from lossless.

No format can repair the damage MP3's encoded artifacts cause to music.

[Quasiperfectto]

I really appreciate your responses !!!

[FireArse]

SuperAudio CD is a format that is pitched at the high-end. One can find discs online & at Harrods etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD

FireArse

[mkrishnan]

SuperAudio CD is a format that is pitched at the high-end. One can find discs online & at Harrods etc.

If this turns out to be the problem, that you're not even happy with the quality of high frequencies on the original CD, then good luck.... :p No rip format will help with that, and SACDs are not exactly widely available for every song you like.

[LERsince1991]

in future you'd probably be better off downloading becuase you can get it in much better quality files. Just make sure they are what they say they are and not just a cd rip or something or mp3 converted etc...

[Quasiperfectto]

So the Apple Lossless preference is the best format to CD rips or there is a better quality way? I still hear slight distortion on highs for CD recording to iTunes library even after re-ripping

[r.j.s]

You could try ripping as AIFF, which is uncompressed, to see if there is a difference in the highs, but the files will be huge.

[MrChurchyard]

So the Apple Lossless preference is the best format to CD rips or there is a better quality way? I still hear slight distortion on highs for CD recording to iTunes library even after re-ripping
This is while hearing them with the same headphones from CD and from iTunes? Just checking that this is not a hardware- or setup-related problem.

[mkrishnan]

People have tested and the "lossless" aspect of the Apple Lossless format is legitimate. If you are hearing a difference in the audio, I would point to...

- Is the iTunes EQ enabled?
- Are you listening to the iTunes copy and the CD copy on the same speakers and DAC'd / amplified by the same source?

[Quasiperfectto]

The distortion is heard wherever is played, only on CD rips. So do you also recommended AIFF rip? Thanks. EQ is enabled according to the type of music I'm ripping. Mostly POP. Most of the music is heard on iPod or iPhone on my Bose, but also in my car stereo.

[r.j.s]

If you hear the distortion on Apple Lossless, then you should also hear it on AIFF, but you can give it a shot.

[Michael CM1]

Please don't forget that these are CDs. They are NOT the best format for audio available. Yes, the most popular and widely available, but there literally is a better format called Blu-ray Disc. If you have a Bose system, check out some concert BDs or just movies with very good soundtracks (The Dark Knight). If you use my Dark Knight experiment, then go buy the soundtrack on CD. I haven't done this personally, but I would bet a lot that the BD sound will knock you out.

OK, it's really just a rant, but I'm not a big believer in lossless formats for music. The only way to do it is what you're trying with CD to computer, which as I said isn't all that great IMO. I'll take the slight audio hit for all the space I save. Even when I have used Apple TV to listen to audio on a Dolby sound system with Bose speakers, I can't tell that I'm missing anything.

If Apple would start selling music in the DTS Audio format that I bought a couple of albums on, then we might start talking about lossless files. Until then, AAC is pretty darn good.

[Quasiperfectto]

I always thought that the CD quality was duplicated exactly onto iTunes. I guess not. I converted all my songs to AIFF, even though it takes more space. So far this format is pretty close to the CD and the distortion on the highs are minimized a little better.

[fr33 loader]

Please don't forget that these are CDs. They are NOT the best format for audio available. Yes, the most popular and widely available, but there literally is a better format called Blu-ray Disc. If you have a Bose system, check out some concert BDs or just movies with very good soundtracks (The Dark Knight). If you use my Dark Knight experiment, then go buy the soundtrack on CD. I haven't done this personally, but I would bet a lot that the BD sound will knock you out.

OK, it's really just a rant, but I'm not a big believer in lossless formats for music. The only way to do it is what you're trying with CD to computer, which as I said isn't all that great IMO. I'll take the slight audio hit for all the space I save. Even when I have used Apple TV to listen to audio on a Dolby sound system with Bose speakers, I can't tell that I'm missing anything.

If Apple would start selling music in the DTS Audio format that I bought a couple of albums on, then we might start talking about lossless files. Until then, AAC is pretty darn good.

The only benefit you will get from Blu-ray is more uncompressed song capacity because of their large storage space. Won't make your music any better than regular CD.

BOSE needs a thread of its own.

[telecomm]

The only benefit you will get from Blu-ray is more uncompressed song capacity because of their large storage space. Won't make your music any better than regular CD.

Nope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book_(audio_CD_standard)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_TrueHD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS-HD

[fr33 loader]

Nope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book_(audio_CD_standard)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_TrueHD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS-HD

Thanks!

[Teej guy]

I always thought that the CD quality was duplicated exactly onto iTunes. I guess not. I converted all my songs to AIFF, even though it takes more space. So far this format is pretty close to the CD and the distortion on the highs are minimized a little better.

Unless something is going wrong in the playback/decoding process, hearing a difference between Apple Lossless and AIFF is impossible. It's either that or the placebo effect.

Apple Lossless is Lossless. It puts out exactly what you put into it. Apple Lossless stores the same information as AIFF, just losslessly compressed. AIFF is lossless and uncompressed.

[Consultant]

The distortion is heard wherever is played, only on CD rips. So do you also recommended AIFF rip? Thanks. EQ is enabled according to the type of music I'm ripping. Mostly POP. Most of the music is heard on iPod or iPhone on my Bose, but also in my car stereo.

Good sound system do not need equalizer.

So earlier you said there is problem with Mp3. Then you are not saying "only cd rips"?
Which is which?

AIFF = Loseless = Apple loseless
unless your computer is 10 years old and cannot decompress the file.

[Pili]

What are you listening on? Your speakers/headphones might not be rendering the extra info in the highs in a way you would like. Also if your listening critically you should be listening with a dedicated DAC. Look along the chain before blaming the source.

edit: I'm no audiophile but Apple Lossless is very good imo. Not a huge difference to my ear anyways between a Apple Lossless file and a 24/96 FLAC file.

[slothrob]

I always thought that the CD quality was duplicated exactly onto iTunes. I guess not. I converted all my songs to AIFF, even though it takes more space. So far this format is pretty close to the CD and the distortion on the highs are minimized a little better.
CD to AIFF isn't really converting, it's just copying the file that's on the CD. Any difference in distortion is due to your equipment or witchcraft.

The same is probably true for any difference you hear in the Lossless file.

[Quasiperfectto]

I will, once again, convert all my iTunes music library to Lossless. Deleting all the songs and re-ripping in Lossless format. I need the space and it appears there isn't much of a difference with AIFF. The music that I buy at iTunes do not have the problem at all, only the rip CDs in the highs. So there is nothing wrong with my computer, headphones, Bose or car stereo.

[Teej guy]

I will, once again, convert all my iTunes music library to Lossless. Deleting all the songs and re-ripping in Lossless format. I need the space and it appears there isn't much of a difference with AIFF. The music that I buy at iTunes do not have the problem at all, only the rip CDs in the highs. So there is nothing wrong with my computer, headphones, Bose or car stereo.

If you've already got the AIFF files that were ripped from the CD, you don't need to re-rip. You can just convert them straight to Apple Lossless. It will result in exactly the same file.

If you're having trouble with the sound of AIFF/Apple Lossless files, it's possible something's going wrong in the playback.

[Pili]

Your probably not having the "problem" with downloaded music because of the way compression works. Compressing to an mp3 sacrifices the highs and lows favoring the mids (where vocals are). There is more to it obviously but basically the compressed file cuts the top and bottoms off.

Any of the distortion that you seem to be hearing in the lossless files and not in the mp3's is probably because the musical info that is distorting is not present in the mp3's. So it could indeed still be somewhere in the system.

Can you describe more what you mean by distortion? That's a pretty vague term.

[ChrisA]

I have converted all my iTunes library mp3 to Apple Lossless to get rid of the slight distortion sound at 128 bit. But the problem is that I still can detect a very minor distortion in the highs. Is there another way I can further enhance the sound via apple Itunes etc... Thanks

You mean you converted MP3 to Lossless???? That does absolutly nothing but use up space. Once the sound is gone it's gone.

When you convert from the CD to MP3 you loose a lot of the sound. You can't get it back except to go back to the CD. So what you need to do is re-rip the CDs to lossless.

But experimant. Maybe re-ripping the CDs to 256 AAC is good enough for you and 256 AAC uses 1/4 the space of Lossless.

[Michael CM1]

Nope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book_(audio_CD_standard)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_TrueHD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS-HD

The Dolby TrueHD entry mentioned "The Phantom of the Opera." That movie's soundtrack totally shows what you're missing even with DVD and even without a system that has all the HD audio. I heard stuff on that movie on Blu-ray that I had never heard before on DVD or my iTunes album download.

[Quasiperfectto]

When I say distortion, I mean you hear a feedback in the highs of the song. Like a vibrating sound, regardless of the volume. But only with some cuts on the CD when notes are sung in crescendo fashion. I have also tried changing from pop to rock to classical etc... on the settings. Same result.

[LERsince1991]

So what are you saying... CD Quality isn't good enough? Have you considered its your equipment? digital-integrated amp? headphones? crossover?

... Your ears? ;)

[Pili]

Only other thing I can think of when I hear distortion is a lack of amplification power. Depending on how loud your listening at, you could be pushing your system(s) more than the built in amplification can provide for.

I honestly don't think the source is the problem. Unless somehow iTunes is screwing up the encoding which is very unlikely, whatever your hearing is a result of the system or your ears.

[Consultant]

When I say distortion, I mean you hear a feedback in the highs of the song. Like a vibrating sound, regardless of the volume. But only with some cuts on the CD when notes are sung in crescendo fashion. I have also tried changing from pop to rock to classical etc... on the settings. Same result.

Your EQUALIZER setting is over amplifying the sound, so it's clipping.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio)

Compressed material are less likely to run into clipping because there is less material.

[ericinboston]

Well, not to harp on you, but....

Have you considered using high end audio equipment to listen to these AIFF, Apple Lossless, and the cds directly? Meaning, I am assuming you are doing all this testing on some cheesy $45 speakers plugged into your generic computer audio card (worth about $9)...you need to give us much more detail on your computer hardware as well as software that is ripping/playing.

Please detail your audio card, how it is hooked up to your speakers, and what brand/model speakers you have. It does not sound like you are pushing the music through a home stereo system.

Moreover, try this: rip your cd to AIFF or WAV...immediately burn the files to another CDR...go to a quality home stereo system and play the original cd...then play the CDR...do you notice a difference? If not, then it is something in your computer hardware setup that is altering the sound of your AIFF files in real-time. If you *do* notice a difference, then I would state that yes, something is wrong with your computer settings from the moment the music is ripped...such as equalization being permanently etched into the files...because if your CDR sounds "tinny" on your home stereo, something happened during the ripping of the original cd to make it tinny.

I have been ripping cds to WAV (I'm on a pc) since 1994...I've never had any problems.

One of the problems is that if you want great sound coming from your computer you need: 1)great sound input (cd itself, lossless file format) 2)a great soundcard (like spending $100 or more) 3)pushing the signal out of the audio card and into a home stereo receiver with great stereo speakers. I'm sure people will scream and yell that their $250 "computer speakers" are great and/or match a home stereo "system" but that's just false. My computer system has been set up with my 3-step rule above for over 15 years...it rocks. The receiver is about $400 and the speakers about $700. Audio card is about $100. But that's me...someone who LOVES music and loves a great sounding piece of music.

-Eric

[esaleris]

You can try ripping using the software program Max, found at sbooth.org. Turn on Paranoia and have it rip to whatever format you like. It's said to be more exact than using iTunes to rip, particularly on older CDs that aren't pristine.

If you're testing audio fidelity between a CD and the lossless rip of it, use the same program on the same hardware (i.e. Macbook playing CD, Macbook playing lossless). Music can be perceived to sound different - clearer, less clear, etc - with even -3dB changes in volume, so be sure to level-match your comparison.

[Teej guy]

Well, not to harp on you, but....

Have you considered using high end audio equipment to listen to these AIFF, Apple Lossless, and the cds directly? Meaning, I am assuming you are doing all this testing on some cheesy $45 speakers plugged into your generic computer audio card (worth about $9)...you need to give us much more detail on your computer hardware as well as softwar

He said he has Bose speakers. I think that's part of the problem right there...

[DaftUnion]

I I need the space and it appears there isn't much of a difference with AIFF.

Ok, as everyone has said...AIFF is EXACTLY the same quality as Apple Lossless...there is NO difference...other than the fact that Apple Lossless in effect is like a .zip file on a computer that roughly makes the thing a little smaller but in NO way, shape or form is any different than AIFF for audio quality.

If you're hearing distortion, it might be because your CD's your importing from are badly scratched up and the error correction in iTunes isn't the greatest.

iTunes is a great program, but XLD http://tmkk.hp.infoseek.co.jp/xld/index_e.html and Max http://sbooth.org/Max/ could get rid of these distortions IF they are being caused by scratched up CD's that iTunes isn't completely compensating for.

BTW: These are pretty "hardcore" programs for audio and may be more than you're looking for...with that said, Max I think is easier to use and has a better interface, but they both have tons of options.

[Julien]

Lots of good and lots of miss information in this thread.

In a nutshell the distortion you are hearing is almost certainly caused by using the iTunes EQ. Since you don't list your playback equipment there is a chance it could be some problem with your setup.


It's a fact that it has nothing to do with Apple Lossless since after decoding it is bit for bit the same info as the CD ripped to WAV or AIFF file.

[Consultant]

Lots of good and lots of miss information in this thread.

In a nutshell the distortion you are hearing is almost certainly caused by using the iTunes EQ. Since you don't list your playback equipment there is a chance it could be some problem with your setup.


It's a fact that it has nothing to do with Apple Lossless since after decoding it is bit for bit the same info as the CD ripped to WAV or AIFF file.

I would not say it's caused by iTunes equalizer.
I would say it's caued by incorrectly applied equalizer settings.

[ericinboston]

Lots of good and lots of miss information in this thread.

Until he/she replies back with details on:

1)all the equipment being used for ripping/encoding
2)the exact steps he/she is doing to rip/convert/play/listen to the music


we will be shooting in the dark.

-Eric