Unboxing of the Early 2009 NVIDIA iMac, Early Benchmarks

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/03/04/unboxing-of-the-early-2009-imac/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2009/03/04/140835-2009-03-04imac-8.jpg_425.jpg

Engadget has posted (http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/04/imac-early-2009-unboxing-and-hands-on/) an unboxing gallery (http://www.engadget.com/photos/imac-march-2009-unboxing-and-hands-on/) of the new iMac. Externally, there is not much different in the new machine with the exception of a FireWire 800 port and mini DisplayPort. The new iMac does come with the keypad-less keyboard (pictured above). MacRumors readers who are waiting on delivery of their new iMacs are congregating in this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=660842).

Primate Labs (http://www.primatelabs.ca/blog/2009/03/imac-and-mac-mini-benchmarks-early-2009/) has already posted some benchmarks of the new iMacs and Mac minis. Unsurprisingly they found that processor speed has not improved significantly between the older and the new models:Processor performance hasn’t increased substantially in the latest hardware; the performance increase seems to scale with processor speed. This isn’t surprising, since neither the iMac nor the Mac mini moved to a new processor architecture.Geekbench, however, only measures processor and memory performance and does not measure graphics card performance. The main improvement in these models was a move to an NVIDIA-based architecture with improved integrated graphics. This should improve graphics benchmarks and will also provide additional benefits when Snow Leopard is released.


Article Link: Unboxing of the Early 2009 NVIDIA iMac, Early Benchmarks (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/03/04/unboxing-of-the-early-2009-imac/)

[shanmugam]

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/iMac-20-Inch/658/1

and teardown photos here

[vista.john]

nice, now wait to see how mac mini performs...

[macUser2007]

Bleh.

Not much to get excited about. It looks like an interim model.

[Eidorian]

nice, now wait to see how mac mini performs...99.9999% sure that it performs like the Aluminium 2.0 Ghz Macbook.

[HLdan]

Bleh.

Not much to get excited about. It looks like an interim model.

I have to agree, it's the same machine intro'd in 2007. Do we really need an unboxing?

[shanmugam]

and the cpu numbers are

Intel Core 2 Duo E8435 3.06 GHz (2 cores)
Intel Core 2 Duo E8335 2.93 GHz (2 cores)
Intel Core 2 Duo E8135 2.66 GHz (2 cores)

...

[mark88]

So much for progress!

[Eidorian]

and the cpu numbers are

Intel Core 2 Duo E8435 3.06 GHz (2 cores)
Intel Core 2 Duo E8335 2.93 GHz (2 cores)
Intel Core 2 Duo E8135 2.66 GHz (2 cores)

...http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=6633765&postcount=70

Nothing new there. Apple shifted their previous processors down and nothing more.

[anubis]

Can someone help explain to me what the advantage is of having an "nvidia chipset"? How is this different from the graphics card itself? I understand that snow leopard is going to take advantage of the computational power of the grahphics card in order to speed things up... but what's the difference between using the graphics card and using "the chipset"? I have the now-previous generation iMac 24" 3.06GHz with Geforce 8800 GS graphics card. Will my computer significantly underperform a similarly equipped computer with an "nvidia chipset" with snow leopard?

[ltldrummerboy]

Not an amazing update. Another thing they changed was the stand. It now tapers like the 24" LED cinema display.

I really like the Radeon 4850, though!

[edgew8]

Hmm, looks like a performance drop for the Imac and a bump up for the mini.

I am looking at this "update" as a clever way of dropping the price of the 2008 lineup, while apple can maintain its image of premium priced computers (maximum profit!!!) to stockholders with the "updated" models.

[Tesselator]

That GeekBench was used makes the tests almost completely meaningless for me.

If I run GeekBench 10 times on my MP I get ten quite different results. It's gotta be the worst BM utility I've ever come across.

[ppnkg]

no full keyboard for the desktop line? Are they nuts?

[Eidorian]

Hmm, looks like a performance drop for the Imac and a bump up for the mini.

I am looking at this "update" as a clever way of dropping the price of the 2008 lineup, while apple can maintain its image of premium priced computers (maximum profit!!!) to stockholders with the "updated" models.My money is on the 9400M G in the iMac and shared video RAM taking a few refresh cycles away from the CPU and memory for display purposes.

That GeekBench was used makes the tests almost completely meaningless for me.

If I run GeekBench 10 times on my MP I get ten quite different results. It's gotta be the worst BM utility I've ever come across.Under the same conditions? What about your background applications?

Boo! on the keyboard without a numpad. I hate typing numbers across the top. Ugh!You can order a keyboard with the numpad.

[bking1000]

Boo! on the keyboard without a numpad. I hate typing numbers across the top. Ugh!

[boonedocks]

When I first saw that keyboard photo I imagined it to be a numeric keypad-less keyboard with a giant multi-touch trackpad. That would be very cool.

[~Shard~]

As an iMac owner I find this update to be fairly minor. In fact, I'm very happy I bought my iMac in Dec '07, as the line hasn't seen any siginficant updates since, as is perfectly ilustrated here - glad to see my machine isn't obsolete yet! I guess we'll have to wait for a new chipset to come along before we see any real significant changes to the iMac line. That or Blu Ray. :p

[pwille]

Can someone help explain to me what the advantage is of having an "nvidia chipset"? How is this different from the graphics card itself? I understand that snow leopard is going to take advantage of the computational power of the grahphics card in order to speed things up... but what's the difference between using the graphics card and using "the chipset"? I have the now-previous generation iMac 24" 3.06GHz with Geforce 8800 GS graphics card. Will my computer significantly underperform a similarly equipped computer with an "nvidia chipset" with snow leopard?

I have the same question anubis. I have the current iMac 24" 3.06GHz w/Geforce 8800 GS graphics card. Is the new chipset really that much faster?

[BornAgainMac]

I wish the iMac had easier access to the hard drive.

[QCassidy352]

I have the same question anubis. I have the current iMac 24" 3.06GHz w/Geforce 8800 GS graphics card. Is the new chipset really that much faster?

No. You have an nvidea chipset as well, as the 8800GS is an nvidea card. That 8800 will beat all of the nvidea cards available in the new imac lineup.

Ironically, the only card in the new imac lineup that would outperform what you have is the one non-nvidea card: the ATI 4850.

[moracity]

Hmm, looks like a performance drop for the Imac and a bump up for the mini.

I am looking at this "update" as a clever way of dropping the price of the 2008 lineup, while apple can maintain its image of premium priced computers (maximum profit!!!) to stockholders with the "updated" models.

I agree, this was just a value update to setup a new pricing structure. This is purely an attempt to stimulate sales. In the fall, the 20-in will probably be gone and we will see a processor change and LED-backlit display, at least in the top-end model. We may even see a larger display, but 24-in may be as large as most people will need or want - too much screen space to move the mouse around. Maybe a 26-in or 32-in Apple TV (AppleTV+Display). That seems like the next logical step.

[Tesselator]

Under the same conditions? What about your background applications?


Yes sir. I'm a smart old guy and been around computers since before the 1st ever PCs. So yes, I've tested GeekBench under many different conditions including settled after a cold start - unplugged from the net. Happens over several versions too.

[Eidorian]

I wish the iMac had easier access to the hard drive.It's not that hard if you're willing to take it apart. :(

[QCassidy352]

Externally, there is not much different in the new machine with the exception of a FireWire 800 port and mini DisplayPort.

Question about that: does the new imac have 2 FW 800 ports? Because my previous gen 20" 2.66 has one FW 400 and one FW 800.

[Eidorian]

Question about that: does the new imac have 2 FW 800 ports? Because my previous gen 20" 2.66 has one FW 400 and one FW 800.The FireWire 400 port was removed to add another USB port. There's only one FireWire 800 port now.

[bplein]

This is purely an attempt to stimulate sales.

Wait... when they do release truly new models (as opposed to this internal refresh), they aren't attempting to stimulate new sales?

:rolleyes:

[the vj]

I have the same question anubis. I have the current iMac 24" 3.06GHz w/Geforce 8800 GS graphics card. Is the new chipset really that much faster?

Actually I believe is to have a video card attached to the mother board to save room to make it a bit better.

In my case this is an incredible upgrade. I work with Digital Signage screens, specially with the Philips WOWvx 3D displays. They need 1080i resolution for all their footage and only PCs were available for that.

The older Mac Mini didn't support 1080i resolution at 30fps. This new mac mini does it.

That mean I can get the new mac mini and runs windos and osx, not to mention the size of the mini is 1/3rd of the smaller PC I can find at $800.

And small PC mini ATX cost $800 and over. The mac mini is way perfect for all those applications.

The other computer that can compete with the Mac Mini is the Dell (what ever it name is) but it does not have the house power of the new Mac Mini regarding video.

[QCassidy352]

The FireWire 400 port was removed to add another USB port. There's only one FireWire 800 port now.

Thanks (I just realized I could look that up on apple's imac page :o ). Lose the only FW 400 and gain a 4th USB? That's not a good trade, IMO.

[Intel Inside]

Guess who sent macrumors the link?

Me!:D

[Eidorian]

That mean I can get the new mac mini and runs windos and osx, not to mention the size of the mini is 1/3rd of the smaller PC I can find at $800.

And small PC mini ATX cost $800 and over. The mac mini is way perfect for all those applications.
Where are you getting this? :confused:

[Intel Inside]

Nope, they replaced the FW400 with another usb to make:-

4 USBs
1 FW800
Audio in/out
Mini Display port
Ethernet

[SurfSpirit]

This is the Mac version of Microsoft Downgrade, it should be printed in the box: "Welcome to the new Apple, Downgrade! The Down Starts Now!"

[polaris20]

99.9999% sure that it performs like the Aluminium 2.0 Ghz Macbook.

No, no, the screen on the MB makes it slightly faster. ;)

[IMPMAC]

Everybody is forgetting that there is now DDR3 memory and not DDR2 and 4 GB instead of 2GB

What are they going to update without changing the price so significantly?

[Ramsos]

Thanks (I just realized I could look that up on apple's imac page :o ). Lose the only FW 400 and gain a 4th USB? That's not a good trade, IMO.

I totally agree with you, I think it sucks. If I were in the market for a new Imac right now I would be looking at the refurb store. Loosing that firewire port hurts for video production. USB is cool and all but firewire is preferable for me, USB 2.0 is so PC to me. I guess the fact that I have 8 Firewire Drives keeps me thinking this way.

I have a 24" 2.4 and I'm very happy with it and not jealous of the updates at all.

[weg]

So much for progress!

Well, they've removed Firewire. Does that count as progress?

[wetrix]

I wish Apple had figured out that 3 USB ports wasn't enough when the released the 24" LED ACD. Oh well, I guess the future is promising.

[David Crellen]

Imagine the picture above of the iMac keyboard sitting in its box to the left of the documentation. What if the entire box was the keyboard and the flat area where the documentation is packed was a multi-finger, gesturing mouse pad. Apple would sell a gazillion of them! Especially if it was wireless and the pad could be attached on left or right. - - Or just make a bluetooth mouse pad.

[L0s7man]

Everybody is forgetting that there is now DDR3 memory and not DDR2 and 4 GB instead of 2GB

What are they going to update without changing the price so significantly?

I don't know how to break it for you, but in normal world old hardware get's cheaper with time ;-D

For Apple it doesn't. They charge exactly the same for the whole life-cycle (well, they do drop prices a bit sometimes), but it can't compare. So when they do update, what they're really doing is adjusting the prices to reality...

[ThirteenXIII]

pretty good price point for the 24" model, it looks like they have the same base as the new 24" LED, the slimmer base really nice.

[commander.data]

No. You have an nvidea chipset as well, as the 8800GS is an nvidea card. That 8800 will beat all of the nvidea cards available in the new imac lineup.

Ironically, the only card in the new imac lineup that would outperform what you have is the one non-nvidea card: the ATI 4850.
The GT130 is a rebranded 9600GSO which is a rebranded 8800GS. So the GT130 will perform about the same as the old 8800GS.

As an observation, it only costs $50 to upgrade to the HD4850 which should completely dominate the GT130/8800GS. It's a very worthwhile upgrade. I don't know why Apple even bothers offering the GT130, since the small price difference means the GT130 has little value. If they are selling it to consumers for $50, the actual cost difference to them would be even smaller, so they could have just absorbed the cost, deleted the GT130, and offset it with a simplified supply and production chain.

Personally, I'm interested in seeing how the 9400M performs against the HD2600Pro. I'm willing to bet there are cases where the dedicated nature of the HD2600Pro keeps it ahead, so the 9400M may well be a downgrade for the low-end 24" iMac.

[Sakura Eclair]

I totally agree with you, I think it sucks. If I were in the market for a new Imac right now I would be looking at the refurb store. Loosing that firewire port hurts for video production. USB is cool and all but firewire is preferable for me, USB 2.0 is so PC to me. I guess the fact that I have 8 Firewire Drives keeps me thinking this way.

I have a 24" 2.4 and I'm very happy with it and not jealous of the updates at all.

Actually I don't think that this is a problem. Unlike the MacBooks which lost firewire completely (no 400 or 800), FW800 is backwards compatible with FW400. So you can still use your drives by just adding an adapter. It may be annoying, but you don;t lose your investment.

For the future, FW800 will be it, as most new drives are adopting the new standard (that along with e-Sata).

[Eidorian]

The GT130 is a rebranded 9600GSO which is a rebranded 8800GS. So the GT130 will perform about the same as the old 8800GS.

As an observation, it only costs $50 to upgrade to the HD4850 which should completely dominate the GT130/8800GS. It's a very worthwhile upgrade. I don't know why Apple even bothers offering the GT130, since the small price difference means the GT130 has little value. If they are selling it to consumers for $50, the actual cost difference to them would be even smaller, so they could have just absorbed the cost, deleted the GT130, and offset it with a simplified supply and production chain.

Personally, I'm interested in seeing how the 9400M performs against the HD2600Pro. I'm willing to bet there are cases where the dedicated nature of the HD2600Pro keeps it ahead, so the 9400M may well be a downgrade for the low-end 24" iMac.That is if Apple is using desktop cards in the iMac. We all know how that turned out...

Also the desktop GT130 is the desktop 9600GT.

[edgew8]

Everybody is forgetting that there is now DDR3 memory and not DDR2 and 4 GB instead of 2GB

What are they going to update without changing the price so significantly?

Without a core i7, ddr3 has slower latency than ddr2= slower/same performance

and as others have stated, new tech gets cheaper. I think most of the cost of the iMac comes from the aluminum case and the price of aluminum has not been going down. I wish they still offered plastic models like the MB. I want a computer, not hunks of metal.

[xyian]

I'm honestly surprised Apple hasn't adopted eSATA. PCs have had it for a while. I'm just bummed it's nothing really new. I might scour the refurb store for a 24" with better video. 8GB of RAM? There isn't much out there that can take advantage of that.

[thejadedmonkey]

The main improvement in these models was a move to an NVIDIA-based architecture with improved integrated graphics. This should improve graphics benchmarks and will also provide additional benefits when Snow Leopard is released.

Besides the ability to have 8 gigs of DDR3 ram over 4 gigs of DDR2 ram, is there any other benefit, or just the drawback of no longer having a dedicated graphics card in the low end and midrange models?

[queshy]

providing a keypadless-kb by defauly is a mistake. people aren't ready for that. the numberless one should be an option, not the other way around. Even though I use the current BT (numberpad-less) kb, I think people should still get the bigger kb by default. You might think this is crazy, but this might scare buyers away. If these are sold at big box stores, and the only one in stock is one with a "small" keyboard, some customers actually wouldn't buy it for that very reason (i've seen it happen!)

[lewchenko]

The top end model is essentially the same as the model it replaces ??

The CPU... no advancement

The GPU... its a rebadged 9600 version of the 8800 GS... no advancement

It does have more memory and a larger HD.... erm.. wow


Oh... and it now costs a whopping £449 more than the old version for practically the same machine spec.


People must be absolutely off their rocker to be buying the new iMac in the UK... totally insane. If my wife came home with one of these machines, I would have her committed to the loony bin.

[Heinekev]

Hmm, looks like a performance drop for the Imac and a bump up for the mini.

I am looking at this "update" as a clever way of dropping the price of the 2008 lineup, while apple can maintain its image of premium priced computers (maximum profit!!!) to stockholders with the "updated" models.


Where can one find the old 2008 models at a discount? Retail stores only?

[tobian]

Very disappointed by lack of numeric keypad. :( I'm not going to spend another 100 bucks for the alu full size kb (that's the price in here).

This is so bad, the entire new product line.. so sad :(

[L0s7man]

The GT130 is a rebranded 9600GSO which is a rebranded 8800GS. So the GT130 will perform about the same as the old 8800GS.

As an observation, it only costs $50 to upgrade to the HD4850 which should completely dominate the GT130/8800GS. It's a very worthwhile upgrade. I don't know why Apple even bothers offering the GT130, since the small price difference means the GT130 has little value. If they are selling it to consumers for $50, the actual cost difference to them would be even smaller, so they could have just absorbed the cost, deleted the GT130, and offset it with a simplified supply and production chain.

Personally, I'm interested in seeing how the 9400M performs against the HD2600Pro. I'm willing to bet there are cases where the dedicated nature of the HD2600Pro keeps it ahead, so the 9400M may well be a downgrade for the low-end 24" iMac.

Yeah, if I buy an iMac, I will definitely go for HD4850. But I'd rather have an Nvidia card (I'm interested in CUDA). But I want my gaming performance! And HD4850 kicks ass when compared to GT130...

Where's GT280? ...

[commander.data]

That is if Apple is using desktop cards in the iMac. We all know how that turned out...

Also the desktop GT130 is the desktop 9600GT.
I'm pretty sure the GT130 is the 9600GSO/8800GS. (http://www.techpowerup.com/80712/NVIDIA_Value_and_Mainstream_GPUs_Rebranded_Too.html) I believe the 9600GT maybe the GT140, although with nVidia you never know.

I agree that the GPUs in the iMacs are most likely mobile parts relabeled to desktop equivalents. The HD2600Pro in the previous iMac was actually the Mobility HD2600XT clocked appropriately, while the 8800GS was the 8800M GTS. It makes sense the the GT130 is the 8800GS, since it allows Apple to use the same 8800M GTS as before. The GT120 is most likely the 9600M GT from the MacBook Pro allowing better bulk purchasing. The HD4850 is probably based on the Mobility HD4870. It's probably best that Apple uses mobile parts anyways, particularly for the HD4850 since the RV770 core isn't exactly a cool customer.

[thejadedmonkey]

For the future, FW800 will be it, as most new drives are adopting the new standard (that along with e-Sata).

Which Apple doesn't seem to want to adopt, either.

providing a keypadless-kb by defauly is a mistake. people aren't ready for that. the numberless one should be an option, not the other way around. Even though I use the current BT (numberpad-less) kb, I think people should still get the bigger kb by default. You might think this is crazy, but this might scare buyers away. If these are sold at big box stores, and the only one in stock is one with a "small" keyboard, some customers actually wouldn't buy it for that very reason (i've seen it happen!)

I'd never buy a desktop keyboard if it didn't have a number pad. As it is, I don't even consider a 17" MBP just because every other one on the market HAS a number pad, except for Apple's, and I like my num-pad that much...

[grayskies]

:(

In the context of less computer value, which a lot of people post as their feeling about the iMac updates, I'm not happy with the keyboard. Regardless of people's use, it seems like a cheap move.

I don't know other peoples habits, but I use the keypad often.

[mikeinternet]

instead of the number pad they should have added a multi-touch track pad and got rid of the mouse.

that would have seriously pushed multi-touch as the "new thing" and get software developers to really start utilizing this stuff.

[Ramsos]

Actually I don't think that this is a problem. Unlike the MacBooks which lost firewire completely (no 400 or 800), FW800 is backwards compatible with FW400. So you can still use your drives by just adding an adapter. It may be annoying, but you don;t lose your investment.

For the future, FW800 will be it, as most new drives are adopting the new standard (that along with e-Sata).

For me its an issue of convenience that i have gotten used to. Half my drives are FW 400 and half are 800, but I don't like to have to daisy chain them all. I actually don't even need an adapter because my FW800 drives also have 400 ports.

[diamond.g]

Besides the ability to have 8 gigs of DDR3 ram over 4 gigs of DDR2 ram, is there any other benefit, or just the drawback of no longer having a dedicated graphics card in the low end and midrange models?

Using Nvidia chipset allows for the removal of the Southbrigde (as it is included in the NB).

[baleensavage]

Boo! on the keyboard without a numpad. I hate typing numbers across the top. Ugh!

Seriously. For a laptop removing the number pad makes sense, but on your flagship desktop model this is a really bad move Apple. There are many professional uses of the Mac that you need the expedience of using a number pad for (talk to any bookkeeper for example). :(

[acerbas]

See no reason to replace my old iMac G5 until they come out with LED backlighting rather than CCFL. Agree, this looks like an interim model. Might just get a 17" MacBook Pro and use it in conjunction with the 24" LED display. Anyone using that set-up, and if so, how do you like it?

[Ramsos]

Seriously. For a laptop removing the number pad makes sense, but on your flagship desktop model this is a really bad move Apple. There are many professional uses of the Mac that you need the expedience of using a number pad for (talk to any bookkeeper for example). :(

I have to echo those sentiments.

[BlizzardBomb]

and the cpu numbers are

Intel Core 2 Duo E8435 3.06 GHz (2 cores)
Intel Core 2 Duo E8335 2.93 GHz (2 cores)
Intel Core 2 Duo E8135 2.66 GHz (2 cores)

...

So basically, it took Apple all year to remove a processor from the lineup, replace a FW 400 port with a USB port, change the RAM type, and give it integrated graphics on the first two models *blank stare*.

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5H11 Safari/525.20)

I don't like that it comes with a keyboard without a key pad. I guess that you could always purchase one with a key pad later though.

[macstatic]

Everybody is forgetting that there is now DDR3 memory and not DDR2 and 4 GB instead of 2GB

Excuse my ignorance, but what difference does DD3 memory mean in comparison with DDR2, and for the 20" entry model, would "Average Joe" need more than 4 GB anyway?

I'm trying to find out if my wife will benefit from the new (and more expensive, at least here) 20" 2.66 iMac released yesterday and the previous 2.4 GHz model. She's an "average" user who uses a computer for basic stuff like email, web browsing etc. but she wants to "invest" in a computer that'll last her many years to come.

[badNameErr]

So when does Intel ship their laptop-class Quad Core processor?

Anybody got a link to a Intel roadmap handy?

Maybe this "update" will be relatively short lived.

[macstatic]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5H11 Safari/525.20)

I don't like that it comes with a keyboard without a key pad. I guess that you could always purchase one with a key pad later though.

It seems that you can order the keyboard w/keypad without paying extra via Apple's online store. But that's a bummer for people buying directly from a physical store.

[123]

Can someone help explain to me what the advantage is of having an "nvidia chipset"?

There are two types of graphics:

- integrated (chipset directly on the motherbord)
- separate graphics card

Integrated means less powerful and especially in the case of the old mini, a chip from Intel (GMA 950) was used with abysmal performance. Nvidia and AMD/ATI, the two chip manufacturers for graphics cards, started to produce their own budget chips. As of this revision, the mini now sports an Nvidia integrated chip with much better performance (Nvidia GeForce 9400M, same as current MacBook).

Your iMac has an Nvidia graphics card that is again much faster (>2x).

[diamond.g]

So when does Intel ship their laptop-class Quad Core processor?

Anybody got a link to a Intel roadmap handy?

Maybe this "update" will be relatively short lived.

According to Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_2_microprocessors#Quad-Core_Mobile_processors) since August of last year.

[twoodcc]

well i'm disappointed to hear that there's not huge improvements in speed

[badNameErr]

According to Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_2_microprocessors#Quad-Core_Mobile_processors) since August of last year.

Riiiiiiiight. Well that certainly sucks. And I was trying to cheer myself up! lol

:(

[jbernie]

providing a keypadless-kb by defauly is a mistake. people aren't ready for that. the numberless one should be an option, not the other way around. Even though I use the current BT (numberpad-less) kb, I think people should still get the bigger kb by default. You might think this is crazy, but this might scare buyers away. If these are sold at big box stores, and the only one in stock is one with a "small" keyboard, some customers actually wouldn't buy it for that very reason (i've seen it happen!)

Checking the online store it looks like the fullsize keyboard is no extra cost, they are listed as:
Apple Keyboard
Apple Wireless Keyboard (Add $30)
Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad.

The only concern I would have is the physical stores and what sort of demand they will see for mini keyboard vs full keyboard and whether the confusion will lead people to return for a full keyboard and such. Having not seen the packaging hopefully it is kind of obvious through them using different images.

Will be interesting to see how the consumer handles it, removal of floppy drives really wasn't earth shattering as in many ways their purpose was overated and other options were available.

[kabunaru]

Your iMac has an Nvidia graphics card that is again much faster (>2x).
ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT is equal and ATI Radeon HD 2600 is better. So the arguement that Nvidia chipset is better is kind of dull.

[macstatic]

There are two types of graphics:

- integrated (chipset directly on the motherbord)
- separate graphics card

Your iMac has an Nvidia graphics card that is again much faster (>2x).

What about the current and previous 20" version iMac?
Is its new NVIDIA GEforce 9400M an improvement over the previously used ATI Radeon HD 2400XT?

[gianly1985]

Very disappointed by lack of numeric keypad. :( I'm not going to spend another 100 bucks for the alu full size kb (that's the price in here).

This is so bad, the entire new product line.. so sad :(

Oh my god....this and the fw400 rant will go on for years.....power of ignorance....

[Stuart in Oz]

Hmm, looks like a performance drop for the Imac and a bump up for the mini.

I am looking at this "update" as a clever way of dropping the price of the 2008 lineup, while apple can maintain its image of premium priced computers (maximum profit!!!) to stockholders with the "updated" models.
Except that prices went waaaaay up in most countries except the US! Have you seen what they did to us in Australia? Prices are up $500 or so!!!

no full keyboard for the desktop line? Are they nuts?

Must be. I learnt to hate compact keyboards on my Amiga 600 way back in the day.

Well, they've removed Firewire. Does that count as progress?

Yes, cause it would force me to progress from my Sony HDV Handycam to a newer model. Perhaps Apple are getting a cut from Sony. :mad:

So basically, it took Apple all year to remove a processor from the lineup, replace a FW 400 port with a USB port, change the RAM type, and give it integrated graphics on the first two models *blank stare*.

lol, well said. Magnificent work from Apple -not.

What hurts the most is that, for the first time in a long time, these updates smell of cost accounting - that kind of nickel-and-dimeing that really gets your goat. I don't mind paying the Apple premium, but when they then turn around and start saving ten bucks by shipping a compact keyboard, or by not including an Apple Remote, it just gets insulting.

[gmanrique]

It seems the new GT120 and GT130 included in the iMacs are not the mobile versions but under-clocked desktop ones. Still, no real confirmation yet.

No. You have an nvidea chipset as well, as the 8800GS is an nvidea card. That 8800 will beat all of the nvidea cards available in the new imac lineup.

Ironically, the only card in the new imac lineup that would outperform what you have is the one non-nvidea card: the ATI 4850.

[Pressure]

no full keyboard for the desktop line? Are they nuts?

Boo! on the keyboard without a numpad. I hate typing numbers across the top. Ugh!

Very disappointed by lack of numeric keypad. :( I'm not going to spend another 100 bucks for the alu full size kb (that's the price in here).

This is so bad, the entire new product line.. so sad :(

:(

In the context of less computer value, which a lot of people post as their feeling about the iMac updates, I'm not happy with the keyboard. Regardless of people's use, it seems like a cheap move.

I don't know other peoples habits, but I use the keypad often.

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5H11 Safari/525.20)

I don't like that it comes with a keyboard without a key pad. I guess that you could always purchase one with a key pad later though.

You can configure it with the normal keyboard WITH keypad.

Thanks (I just realized I could look that up on apple's imac page :o ). Lose the only FW 400 and gain a 4th USB? That's not a good trade, IMO.

Well, they've removed Firewire. Does that count as progress?

You can daisy chain FireWire products, so it is not really a problem.

You can even get FireWire 400 to FireWire 800 cables. This is really a non-issue.

[beaner454]

You know the base mac mini and the 24" LED for $1500 doesn't seem quite as bad any more. Especially if you have a laptop already that you could use this display for. Your getting a much better screen than the iMac's, and you don't have to keep paying for a new display with every upgrade.

Although the resale % will probably be pretty sad in comparison to the iMac's. But it's definitely some food for thought.

[irun5k]

Seriously. For a laptop removing the number pad makes sense, but on your flagship desktop model this is a really bad move Apple. There are many professional uses of the Mac that you need the expedience of using a number pad for (talk to any bookkeeper for example). :(


+1. This was just plain STUPID. This isn't the same as removing the floppy drive. Floppies had a replacement: USB sticks, writable CDs, network storage, etc.

There is no replacement for the number pad. It is just a poor and arbitrary decision to get rid of it. It would be like removing elevators from the Empire State Building. Apple would try to sell us on the fact that it still has stairs!

***EDIT***
Just read previous post- you can configure this however you want. So seems this is a non-issue, and potentially a positive, since now you can get either style keyboard you want, right?

[h.21]

The article is wrong. A USB port was also added, bringing the total to 4 on the iMac.

[QCassidy352]

Personally, I'm interested in seeing how the 9400M performs against the HD2600Pro. I'm willing to bet there are cases where the dedicated nature of the HD2600Pro keeps it ahead, so the 9400M may well be a downgrade for the low-end 24" iMac.

The 2600 in the previous (2) generation(s) of imac will roundly beat the 9400M. The 9400M is more on par with the 2400xt used in the previous low-end imac (see below), and the 2600 out-performs the 2400xt by a good bit.

Oh... and it now costs a whopping £449 more than the old version for practically the same machine spec.

Yeah because the pound used to be worth $1.90 and now it's worth $1.40. Apple just doesn't adjust prices in the middle of a product cycle.

If you actually do the math (in one thread someone did) UK buyers are still paying slightly less for imacs than US buyers (exclusive of the VAT, which Apple can't do anything about).

What about the current and previous 20" version iMac?
Is its new NVIDIA GEforce 9400M an improvement over the previously used ATI Radeon HD 2400XT?

Macworld compared the imac 2.4 with radeon 2400xt to the macbook 2.4 with 9400m in a series of games and it was pretty close. I think the macbook won 4 out of 7 and the imac won the other 3, but there were no blowouts.

[madog]

Personally, I'm interested in seeing how the 9400M performs against the HD2600Pro. I'm willing to bet there are cases where the dedicated nature of the HD2600Pro keeps it ahead, so the 9400M may well be a downgrade for the low-end 24" iMac.


That's what worries me, not as a potential purchaser of an iMac, but as one who sells them. How will the 24" run vs. the 20" with the same integrated card in tests? Does the fact that it needs to push out the higher resolution automatically decrease it's overall performance? What happens then when you add another display?

[fleshman03]

99.9999% sure that it performs like the Aluminium 2.0 Ghz Macbook.

It will. And the low ends are an Aluminum MB with a bigger screen + more HD + faster processor.


I'm pretty pissed that nothing great came out of yesterday, but I'm surprised that so many people still feel that way.

[neonuke]

Is the keyboard with keypad option free or extra?

[Eidorian]

It will. And the low ends are an Aluminum MB with a bigger screen + more HD + faster processor.


I'm pretty pissed that nothing great came out of yesterday, but I'm surprised that so many people still feel that way.Don't forget the Mac mini has sexy, sexy FireWire 800 as well.

[badNameErr]

Is the keyboard with keypad option free or extra?

free.

[slicecom]

Is the keyboard with keypad option free or extra?

It's a free option but people are still whining. Personally I'd rather have the more compact version as I have no use for a numberpad.

[laffingbilly]

makes me want another one

[Hyde244]

I don't see why anyone would prefer to get the compact keyboard over the traditional numeric pad.

Granted, the compact keyboard works perfectly fine (I have a Macbook that I love after all), but I still do not want to sacrifice keyboard functionality for looks.

[Stridder44]

Worst update ever.

Corporate greed has very obviously taken over the company. Obvious reason why "Think Different" is no longer their slogan.

[kingtj]

But to be honest, I'm in the group Apple seems to think is the majority.... I don't ever really use my numeric keypad. Never did learn how to enter numbers quickly on one.

Just because I don't use it doesn't mean I want to see it go away, though. I realize other people are going to occasionally be using my computer too, and the lack of the keypad might drive somebody else crazy.

It's fine to offer choices, but I agree that the keyboard without the keypad should be the optional one. Small keyboards like that are probably beneficial to some people who want to save space, but they also make the computer look less powerful and cheap. That's not the image you want to portray with a new Mac system.....


+1. This was just plain STUPID. This isn't the same as removing the floppy drive. Floppies had a replacement: USB sticks, writable CDs, network storage, etc.

There is no replacement for the number pad. It is just a poor and arbitrary decision to get rid of it. It would be like removing elevators from the Empire State Building. Apple would try to sell us on the fact that it still has stairs!

***EDIT***
Just read previous post- you can configure this however you want. So seems this is a non-issue, and potentially a positive, since now you can get either style keyboard you want, right?

[ChrisA]

Very disappointed by lack of numeric keypad. ...

When you place the order you get to select the keyboard. You can specify either with or without the numeric pad for the same price

[shanmugam]

When you place the order you get to select the keyboard. You can specify either with or without the numeric pad for the same price

as mentionted by other forum posters; what happens with other retialers like amazon and others?

Keyboard with Num pad should be default and Compact Keyboard should be optional one. (but right NOW it is other way around)

[the vj]

But Apple is becoming ****.

They want to sell you a computer without the numeric keypad to offer it to you as an option at their store.

The catch of this is that their store does not have the discounts a reseller can give you, so they are bringing you to their online store.

And that is for the US only (or the countries lucky enough of having an Apple web site), the rest of the world would have to buy the extra keyboard with the numeric keypad.

That is like selling a software with enough bugs so people will have to buy the upgrades.

Apple is not playing fair, there is a catch in every hardware now.

The lack of composit video in the mac books is terrible because that is what I use in my shows and there are not afforable video mixers that can handle 4 stream of video in VGA or DVI.

At least the Mac Mini has a barely decent video card, but for the rest... thumbs down.

[milo]

So will there be any way to get it with full keyboard from a store?

Or will people have to special order just for the keyboard?

[kurosov]

When you place the order you get to select the keyboard. You can specify either with or without the numeric pad for the same price

Well i will be buying direct at an apple store. does anybody know if they offer a choice there or will i have to make do with the bundled mini keyboard?

[gwangung]

I totally agree with you, I think it sucks. If I were in the market for a new Imac right now I would be looking at the refurb store. Loosing that firewire port hurts for video production.

Really? How?

[BenRoethig]

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/iMac-20-Inch/658/1

and teardown photos here

I should keep this handy for upgrading the hard drive in my Rev. A POS. I miss the days of take back off, upgrade, put back on. Now its take front off with suction cups, unscrew half a million screws, upgrade, replace said half a million screws praying you remembered what goes where, and replace glass.

no full keyboard for the desktop line? Are they nuts?

These days, they do seem to be playing with less than the full deck.

You can order a keyboard with the numpad.

Direct BTO order only. Not applicable to retail bought iMacs.

[gmanrique]

The mini just got updated to have the same integrated video option as the MacBooks.

About the keyboard, agreed. The one with numeric pad should be the default one, not the other way around.

But Apple is becoming ****.

They want to sell you a computer without the numeric keypad to offer it to you as an option at their store.

The catch of this is that their store does not have the discounts a reseller can give you, so they are bringing you to their online store.

And that is for the US only (or the countries lucky enough of having an Apple web site), the rest of the world would have to buy the extra keyboard with the numeric keypad.

That is like selling a software with enough bugs so people will have to buy the upgrades.

Apple is not playing fair, there is a catch in every hardware now.

The lack of composit video in the mac books is terrible because that is what I use in my shows and there are not afforable video mixers that can handle 4 stream of video in VGA or DVI.

At least the Mac Mini has a barely decent video card, but for the rest... thumbs down.

[KnightWRX]

Direct BTO order only. Not applicable to retail bought iMacs.

Source ? Because in the other threads, retailers are saying that they will carry both options, free of charge.

[K3mp]

Question about that: does the new imac have 2 FW 800 ports? Because my previous gen 20" 2.66 has one FW 400 and one FW 800.

No, only one. They added a bunch of USB ports.

[DakotaGuy]

as mentionted by other forum posters; what happens with other retialers like amazon and others?

Keyboard with Num pad should be default and Compact Keyboard should be optional one. (but right NOW it is other way around)

The whole reason Apple did this is a money saving move. There is no other reason. If they did it because people really wanted a smaller keyboard without the number pad then they would have made that the optional keyboard. The only way you get a choice is if you order directly from Apple. Since many iMacs are sold by re-sellers Apple can pocket the price difference on those consumers and if they want the other keyboard they will have to go out and buy it separately.

You might say well it probably only costs 2 or 3 dollars more to manufacture the keyboard with the number keys, but on thousands of units that is a huge amount of money.

[pepstone]

Tech specs show that there is now support for Apple Stereo Headset with microphone

[jaw04005]

Just read previous post- you can configure this however you want. So seems this is a non-issue, and potentially a positive, since now you can get either style keyboard you want, right?

It's still a problem, since the truncated keyboard is now the default retail choice. If you purchase your Mac from Amazon or Mac Mall (among others), you're going to have deal with the truncated keyboard.

Sure you can CTO your iMac from Apple (and pay full retail price + tax), but that doesn't excuse the retail configuration problem.

Maybe Amazon and Mac Mall will stock both versions? However, I doubt it.

It's just another move by Apple to eliminate a non-issue. I have a feeling they'll back down on it just like they did with the hockey puck mouse and the gimped original iMac/iMac DV/Power Mac G3 (B/W) keyboard.

Long live the Apple "Pro" Keyboard!

[pepstone]

It's still a problem, since the truncated keyboard is now the default retail choice. If you purchase your Mac from Amazon or Mac Mall (among others), you're going to have deal with the truncated keyboard.

Sure you can CTO your iMac from Apple (and pay full retail price + tax), but that doesn't excuse the retail configuration problem.

Maybe Amazon and Mac Mall will stock both versions? However, I doubt it.

It's just another move by Apple to eliminate a non-issue. I have a feeling they'll back down on it just like they did with the hockey puck mouse and the gimped original iMac/iMac DV/Power Mac G3 (B/W) keyboard.

Long live the Apple "Pro" Keyboard!

Beauty... a true classic

[mudenza]

The main improvement in these models was a move to an NVIDIA-based architecture with improved integrated graphics. This should improve graphics benchmarks and will also provide additional benefits when Snow Leopard is released.


So if I go for a 20 inch 2600 HD Pro refurb, will I lose these Snow Leopard benefits?

[TheAshMan]

Everybody is forgetting that there is now DDR3 memory and not DDR2 and 4 GB instead of 2GB

What are they going to update without changing the price so significantly?

I agree, this is nice update, twice the RAM and a way better (ATI) GPU for less money than the previous model. Throw in the fact that it is DDR3 with 1066 RAM bus (over previous 866 or whatever) and that is bonus. I see all the people complaining about the lack of quad core, but this is an AIO, not a desktop. Dell, Sony and HP don't have quad in their models either, and when you check pricing, the iMac is less. Granted, Apple should have an xMac to have a better lineup, but for this model, this is great.

They can't use i7 with the nvidia motherboards they want to use because Intel has forbidden that and is taking it to the courts. Yes there is another quad they could use, but I bet for 99% of users out there it has no impact over a dual core, so Apple decided it wasn't worth the thermal design changes or whatever for this go around. I am sure we will see i7 quad later this year. I think these updates are decent and right where Apple had to come in.

I am going to buy my top of the line 24", this is good enough for me. They will have more updates later, relax and wait until then if you aren't happy with this.

[Sai Zelion]

I understand this is not a processor upgrade. But I am mostly excited about the ability to expand up to 8GB of RAM. I've been wanting to buy a MacPro, but I don't need that much processing power. I just wonder how much 3rd party RAM would cost. I just want to be able to run photoshop and for my iMac to my huge psd files smoothly without spending MacPro bucks.

[Schizoid]

There was a time when Apple did everything right.
It wasn't that long ago however, they did lots of things really badly (I won't go into details, but those that remember the 90s will attest to this)

Anyone else getting slightly worried that, (without Steve Jobs maybe) Apple are losing their way a bit...?

I'm just staring at that ****** little keyboard and wondering... "why the hell would I want one of those..."

I've been thinking it a lot lately...

[---]

So what is better in terms of graphics now? My ATI Radeon HD 2600 (with 256 MB of memory), or the NVIDIA GeForce 9400m with its shared memory?

Also, Snow Leopard should make which one better?

[QCassidy352]

So if I go for a 20 inch 2600 HD Pro refurb, will I lose these Snow Leopard benefits?

So what is better in terms of graphics now? My ATI Radeon HD 2600 (with 256 MB of memory), or the NVIDIA GeForce 9400m with its shared memory?

Also, Snow Leopard should make which one better?

My goodness. Someone should change the first post of this thread because it's misleading and people are getting confused.

Ok, to reiterate: the Radeon 2600 is markedly BETTER than the 9400M. The 9400M is more comparable to the 2400XT that was in the low-end imac. Moreover, there is nothing magical about nvidea that will make it the better choice for snow leopard. Snow leopard is going to take advantage of idle GPU power to take load off the CPU, and whether the GPU is made by nvidea or ATI has nothing to do with that.

The move to the 9400M is a great thing for the mini and the macbook, which had intel integrated. But for the systems that already had dedicated graphics, the 9400M is a downgrade from everything but the 2400XT.

[Bad Paper]

Snow leopard is going to take advantage of idle GPU power to take load off the CPU, and whether the GPU is made by nvidea or ATI has nothing to do with that.Really? So Snow Leopard doesn't use CUDA? Or how does that work? I assumed that by ordering the iMac with Radeon 4850 I was giving up some kind of nVidia snazzery.

[---]

The Radeon 2600 is markedly BETTER than the 9400M. The 9400M is more comparable to the 2400XT that was in the low-end imac. Moreover, there is nothing magical about nvidea that will make it the better choice for snow leopard. [...] The 9400M is a downgrade from everything but the 2400XT.

Alright thanks. I was thinking there must be something magical about the NVIDIA 9400M that i did not know about for apple to do this. I was thinking maybe they did it to consume less energy, but I don't think many people give a damn about how green their desktop computer is.

[bigmc6000]

This doesn't even seem possible but I'm going to ask anyway. With the mini-display port can the new iMac function as an external monitor for, say, the new mac mini?

I'm about 100% certain the answer is no but imagine if it was yes! How great would that be - if/when you move on from an iMac to a mini or a MB you could just hook it right up to the iMac :)

Wait, I'm dreaming again aren't I? :(

[KnightWRX]

This doesn't even seem possible but I'm going to ask anyway. With the mini-display port can the new iMac function as an external monitor for, say, the new mac mini?

I'm about 100% certain the answer is no but imagine if it was yes! How great would that be - if/when you move on from an iMac to a mini or a MB you could just hook it right up to the iMac :)

Wait, I'm dreaming again aren't I? :(

No, it's an output port, not an input port.

[bigmc6000]

No, it's an output port, not an input port.

Kinda figured... Eh well... Pipe dreams and all of that...

[corywoolf]

I love how Apple keeps taking away functionality little by little. While 90% of users probably don't use the number pad, for apps like Maya and After Effects, it is all but essential. By removing features like firewire, the number pad, dedicated graphics, matte screen... Apple further frustrates the creative professional crowd. Apple doesn't like a middle class. They want a crippled lower class and overly expensive high class. Before you know it, you'll need to pay at least $2500 for a computer that can run the Final Cut Suite well. They are sick of young punks pirating their professional software and running it on sub $1500 machines. One step further in hardware DRM.

[minik]

As a 3.06Ghz w/8800 GS iMac user since May 2008, I don't miss much compare the current generation iMac. However, I am happy to see that the current generation iMac is even more affordable than last year models.

I literally just ignore the negative comments here.

[petercooper]

There is no replacement for the number pad.

If you look at the 2nd from top row of your keyboard, you should notice there's a whole row with the numbers there as well. It's not as if Apple are going to stop you from ever typing numbers again. You can also find the various mathematical operators around the main section of the keyboard.

The only things that are totally inaccessible are F13->F19, the cancel button, and the return key (and I believe you can get to return with some modifier + enter?).

[mdntcallr]

I love how Apple keeps taking away functionality little by little. While 90% of users probably don't use the number pad, for apps like Maya and After Effects, it is all but essential. By removing features like firewire, the number pad, dedicated graphics, matte screen... Apple further frustrates the creative professional crowd. Apple doesn't like a middle class. They want a crippled lower class and overly expensive high class. Before you know it, you'll need to pay at least $2500 for a computer that can run the Final Cut Suite well. They are sick of young punks pirating their professional software and running it on sub $1500 machines. One step further in hardware DRM.

Apple won't even give us Blu-Ray. it is so frustrating that they keep stripping away features.

[Mr Maui]

Worst update ever.

Corporate greed has very obviously taken over the company. Obvious reason why "Think Different" is no longer their slogan.

Apple won't even give us Blu-Ray. it is so frustrating that they keep stripping away features.

Maybe you should check out how the new iMac compares (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/03/04/new_imacs_offer_more_value_than_competition_report.html) to some of the competitors before continuing to bash it and Apple.


Apple won't even give us Blu-Ray. it is so frustrating that they keep stripping away features.

Apple will give BluRay when they feel it is a viable and cost-effective option (especially the licensing fees).

[mac.andy]

What I like about the hardware refresh:
- Video processor upgrade ATi 4850
- DDR3 RAM, 4 GB Standard

What I don't like about the hardware refresh:
-No Quad-Core Processor

I won't be purchasing until Mid-July anyway, and I wonder if on Steve Jobs' return; Apple may do Quad-Core hardware update for iMac.
I want my new iMac to come with OS X 10.6 and a Quad Core, which is why I'm holding off - as well as there being a $1300 hole in my iMac budget. :rolleyes:

[dmmcintyre3]

(and I believe you can get to return with some modifier + enter?).

Fn+return for the other one and Fn+delete for the other delete. I know because I use laptops so I do not have the number pad anyway.

[KnightWRX]

I don't think it's been said enough yet : The keyboard with a numeric keypad is still available and it is free.

Everyone says no one wants the new wired smaller keyboard, but my co-worker jumped up and scream "FINALLY!" as soon as it showed up on the Apple store Tuesday.

[gmcalpin]

I have a feeling they'll back down on it just like they did with the hockey puck mouse and the gimped original iMac/iMac DV/Power Mac G3 (B/W) keyboard.

Oh, man, I hated those. I opened the box and immediately thought, "what?" And then I went to Best Buy.

That said, I don't often use my numeric keypad. I would miss it, but a lot of people would not. And there is no way that it costs more than a few pennies less to make, despite what someone else postulated; it's about the footprint, not the price.

And it might be a bad idea, but as long as they're offering the full-size version for free, I don't see any reason why some of the people here have been complaining as much as they have....

[iVoid]

You know... maybe it's time for Apple to go back to NOT including a keyboard with their computers at all.

They used to not include the keyboard so you could choose a standard or extended keyboard.

Only the iMac and MacPro comes with external keyboards anyway, so why not drop them (and dare I hope the price ;) ) and let people choose which one to buy. Yeah, they let you do some customizing now, but that's only if you buy direct from Apple.

I'm not a big fan of the new chicklet keyboards anyway. Sure for laptops, you have to save space, but for a desktop I prefer a full stroke keyboard.

Yeah, I can just buy/use a different keyboard, but I already have a dozen extra keyboards around the house (including an ADB and a Mac Plus keyboard :) ), don't need another aroudn for more clutter.


It would be 'greener' not to include a keyboard that might not be used, as well. :)

[IMPMAC]

You have an option to go for an extended keyboard. People here are thinking they are no numpad for good.

Some people need to focus more, damn
And the iMacs are better then the old models.

[Scottsdale]

Very disappointed by lack of numeric keypad. :( I'm not going to spend another 100 bucks for the alu full size kb (that's the price in here).

This is so bad, the entire new product line.. so sad :(

IT'S A FREE UPGRADE TO ADD THE KEYPAD. GET A CLUE! NOT A $100. NOT A PENNY MORE. I LIKE THE NO KEYPAD. I have a wireless keypad for the one day per month I actually use it. For those of you who want the keypad, SELECT IT. IT'S FREE!

Do some fact checking before you all just rip Apple. Know what you're talking about.

[sa gringo]

i have the blue tooth keyboard and blue tooth 10-key pad / calculator and like that combo a lot more than the wired keyboard...

[srl7741]

I would like to see the Black Keys like the NoteBooks use? It seems that combination would complement the entire line better than the current key board.

[commander.data]

Really? So Snow Leopard doesn't use CUDA? Or how does that work? I assumed that by ordering the iMac with Radeon 4850 I was giving up some kind of nVidia snazzery.
The entire point of Snow Leopard and Apple spending their own resources to develop OpenCL, before pushing it through the Khronos Group in their quickest ever ratification, is to prevent CUDA or other proprietary GPGPU languages from gaining anymore traction. Snow Leopard will support OpenCL and OpenCL only. To add CUDA, you'll need to download nVidia's custom framework yourself as is the case now. OpenCL is supported by ATI, nVidia, and Intel who were all on the ratification group.

In any case, programs will still need to be written to take advantage of OpenCL, and no doubt the early drivers will not be optimal. It's not an instant performance fix and will be slow going.

[macshill]

Hmm, looks like a performance drop for the Imac and a bump up for the mini.

I am looking at this "update" as a clever way of dropping the price of the 2008 lineup, while apple can maintain its image of premium priced computers (maximum profit!!!) to stockholders with the "updated" models.

Oh, not quite. Don't forget about the price increases! :D

[KnightWRX]

Oh, not quite. Don't forget about the price increases! :D

You mean the fluctuating currencies ?

[myca]

You mean the fluctuating currencies ?

Hmm 11 months ago you got

24-inch: 3.06GHz
3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB memory
500GB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 8800GS with 512MB memory

for £1359

Now you get

24-inch: 3.06GHz
3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB memory
1TB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce GT 130 with 512MB memory

for £1799

So with the way that technology moves on you're getting less for more, I think that's why a few folk are up in arms.

Me I don't like all in ones personally, but I could never recommend the new iMac to a friend as it stands.

-----------------------
No matter what happens with the mac, as long as the iPhone farts people will be happy :)

[macshill]

Maybe you should check out how the new iMac compares (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/03/04/new_imacs_offer_more_value_than_competition_report.html) to some of the competitors before continuing to bash it and Apple.




Apple will give BluRay when they feel it is a viable and cost-effective option (especially the licensing fees).

*yawn* Fanboy statement.

They're making YOU, the consumers bend around THEIR mould, rather than the other way around. I thought Apple got into the whole computer business to build what was wanted and hadn't been yet.

[KnightWRX]

*yawn* Fanboy statement.

They're making YOU, the consumers bend around THEIR mould, rather than the other way around. I thought Apple got into the whole computer business to build what was wanted and hadn't been yet.

You asume everyone wants Blu-ray. My PS3 is already a fine blu-ray player and it's connected to a much larger display than anything in my office, where my Macbook is.

In a sens, you're making the consumers want what you want. We can speak for ourselves and when we say "we don't care about blu-ray", we don't. Really.

[KnightWRX]

Hmm 11 months ago you got


What was the £ valued at in $ 11 months ago ?

Like I said, fluctuating currencies. The iMac is worth the same thing it was 11 months ago, you just lost purchasing power.

[minik]

Hmm 11 months ago you got

24-inch: 3.06GHz
3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB memory
500GB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 8800GS with 512MB memory

for £1359

Now you get

24-inch: 3.06GHz
3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB memory
1TB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce GT 130 with 512MB memory

for £1799

So with the way that technology moves on you're getting less for more, I think that's why a few folk are up in arms.

Me I don't like all in ones personally, but I could never recommend the new iMac to a friend as it stands.

-----------------------
No matter what happens with the mac, as long as the iPhone farts people will be happy :)


11 months ago I paid US$2,239 (with edu. discount)

24-inch: 3.06GHz BTO
3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB 800Mhz DDR2 memory (vs. stock 2GB)
500GB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 8800GS with 512MB memory

Today will cost me US$2,099 (with edu. discount)

24-inch: 3.06GHz stock
3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB memory
1TB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce GT 130 with 512MB memory

[poxonyou]

I see all the people complaining about the lack of quad core, but this is an AIO, not a desktop. Dell and HP don't have quad in their models either, and when you check pricing, the iMac is less.

Wrong. Dell uses the Core 2 Quads in the 24" XPS One's. http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/desktop-xps-a2420?c=us&cs=19&l=en&ref=dthp&s=dhs

Also, other manufacturers have consumer desktop options. Apple doesn't. You get a laptop in a box with no screen (mini), a laptop/crippled desktop (iMac), or an insanely expensive workstation tower.

They will have more updates later, relax and wait until then if you aren't happy with this.

If people don't complain and just keep buying, they have no reason to change. I imagine they're making higher than ever profit margins on this current update. Why would they voluntarily cut back on those profit margins if no one is complaining, if their sales aren't affected?

[poxonyou]

11 months ago I paid US$2,239 (with edu. discount)

24-inch: 3.06GHz BTO
3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB 800Mhz DDR2 memory (vs. stock 2GB)
500GB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 8800GS with 512MB memory

Today will cost me US$2,099 (with edu. discount)

24-inch: 3.06GHz stock
3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB memory
1TB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce GT 130 with 512MB memory

You live in the US, s/he lives in the UK where there's a major price increase. Also, after 1 year, we should be getting an upgrade, not nearly the exact same model with a slight discount (in the US).

[ppnkg]

instead of the number pad they should have added a multi-touch track pad and got rid of the mouse.

that would have seriously pushed multi-touch as the "new thing" and get software developers to really start utilizing this stuff.


thank god there must be a good number of left handers working at apple to prevent this from happening ever...

[KnightWRX]

If people don't complain and just keep buying, they have no reason to change. I imagine they're making higher than ever profit margins on this current update. Why would they voluntarily cut back on those profit margins if no one is complaining, if their sales aren't affected?

If people keep buying, maybe it's because these updates fit their needs at a price point they find acceptable ?

You can complain, but most complaints up to now have been based in a fantasy where Apple revamped their entire line-up, reinvented many of their computers and switched products from one market segment to another.

Basically, sales will tell us the true story, if the gripes are just a vocal minority or if really the updates were that bad.

For now, the products of today at today's price point are better value than they were on Monday, so I don't see what the problem really is.

You live in the US, s/he lives in the UK where there's a major price increase.

No, there's been a major drop in the value of their currency, not a price increase. I'm in Canada, and I know I can't expect to pay the same price as in the US while our dollar is worth 80 cents US.

Of course, us Canadians are used to this, we had our dollar at 70 cents US for almost 10 years during the 90s.

[myca]

What was the £ valued at in $ 11 months ago ?

Like I said, fluctuating currencies. The iMac is worth the same thing it was 11 months ago, you just lost purchasing power.

Well to be pedantic, the last refresh cost the UK buyer $2786, compared to the US price of $2199, whereas today the UK Buyer will pay $2520 compared to US price of $2199. But all the talk of fluctuating currencies doesn't add up to the fact that this refresh hasn't really added much, apart from more ram and HD space as standard.

Even the top ends GPU is the same as what was on the previous model, it's just had it's name changed twice. I don't think people would be bothered as much about a hike in price if there had been a hike in specs to go with it.

-----------------------
No matter what happens with the mac, as long as the iPhone farts people will be happy :)

[NorrisKillsKids]

I'm so happy I bought a 2.8ghz 24 inch refurb! I CAN'T WAIT FOR IT TO ARRIVE. GRRRRRRR.

[Slurpy2k8]

The GT130 is a rebranded 9600GSO which is a rebranded 8800GS. So the GT130 will perform about the same as the old 8800GS.

As an observation, it only costs $50 to upgrade to the HD4850 which should completely dominate the GT130/8800GS. It's a very worthwhile upgrade. I don't know why Apple even bothers offering the GT130, since the small price difference means the GT130 has little value. If they are selling it to consumers for $50, the actual cost difference to them would be even smaller, so they could have just absorbed the cost, deleted the GT130, and offset it with a simplified supply and production chain.

Personally, I'm interested in seeing how the 9400M performs against the HD2600Pro. I'm willing to bet there are cases where the dedicated nature of the HD2600Pro keeps it ahead, so the 9400M may well be a downgrade for the low-end 24" iMac.

Apple, absorb cost? It will be a cold day in hell.

Apple nickel and dimes more than any other technology company that I know of. Absorbing any sort of cost isnt in their DNA, even if its at great value to the cutomer and if it can have long-term benefits.

[KnightWRX]

Well to be pedantic, the last refresh cost the UK buyer $2786, compared to the US price of $2199, whereas today the UK Buyer will pay $2520 compared to US price of $2199. But all the talk of fluctuating currencies doesn't add up to the fact that this refresh hasn't really added much, apart from more ram and HD space as standard.

Even the top ends GPU is the same as what was on the previous model, it's just had it's name changed twice. I don't think people would be bothered as much about a hike in price if there had been a hike in specs to go with it.

Again, what price hikes ? Apple doesn't devaluate currency.

Also, the updates were more than just RAM and HD space. The Nehalem Mac Pro's, usable GPUs in Mac Mini's, miniDisplayPort across the entire line, lower entry price for the 24" iMac, etc..

That nothing strikes you as a must buy just means these are not the updates YOU were looking for. It doesn't mean these updates aren't being welcomed by others.

[corywoolf]

You asume everyone wants Blu-ray. My PS3 is already a fine blu-ray player and it's connected to a much larger display than anything in my office, where my Macbook is.

In a sens, you're making the consumers want what you want. We can speak for ourselves and when we say "we don't care about blu-ray", we don't. Really.
Can your PS3 burn Blu-ray discs and edit HD video?

Until Apple adopts Blu-ray... There is currently no good physical HD distribution option on the Mac. There isn't enough bandwidth to stream Blu-ray quality video over the internet currently. For being such a leader in media arts... Apple really should catch up with Adobe on things like Blu-ray support. Apple will probably kill off development on DVD Studio Pro in the next Final Cut Studio. They clearly haven't done much with the app in years.

[goblues27]

IT'S A FREE UPGRADE TO ADD THE KEYPAD. GET A CLUE! NOT A $100. NOT A PENNY MORE. I LIKE THE NO KEYPAD. I have a wireless keypad for the one day per month I actually use it. For those of you who want the keypad, SELECT IT. IT'S FREE!

Do some fact checking before you all just rip Apple. Know what you're talking about.

It's ONLY free if you purchase directly from Apple... so no. That's not free because it eliminates choices of other retailers/discounts.

[jbernie]

You know... maybe it's time for Apple to go back to NOT including a keyboard with their computers at all.

They used to not include the keyboard so you could choose a standard or extended keyboard.

Not a bad idea... they could at least offer a keyboard less option with maybe a $30 or so saving for those who really don't need yet another keyboard. Yes you can recycle an old keyboard but not getting a new one in the first place is just fine.


You asume everyone wants Blu-ray. My PS3 is
already a fine blu-ray player and it's connected to a much larger display than anything in my office, where my Macbook is.

In a sens, you're making the consumers want what you want. We can speak for ourselves and when we say "we don't care about blu-ray", we don't. Really.

Actually, we would like BR at least as an option. As has probably been said more than enough, the MacMini format with a BR drive is quite a compelling device. Even if it means you can only get this config with a build to order through the Apple online store it still a viable configuration.

[Bubba Satori]

You asume everyone wants Blu-ray. My PS3 is already a fine blu-ray player and it's connected to a much larger display than anything in my office, where my Macbook is.

In a sens, you're making the consumers want what you want. We can speak for ourselves and when we say "we don't care about blu-ray", we don't. Really.

Not everybody, but some. Does everybody need to want something for Apple to deign to at least provide the option for it ? Some of the computers I sell have it for the price of a Macbook for heaven's sake.

Who is the "we" you claim to be speaking for ?

[KnightWRX]

Can your PS3 burn Blu-ray discs and edit HD video?

Blu-ray isn't the only HD video source. You're thinking about producing Blu-ray discs using a Mac. I fail to see how this has any link with a Blu-ray drive in a Mac Mini or iMac as you won't be editing HD video on those either, only playing back movies or using BD-Rs for data storage.

The BD-R part is covered by 3rd parties, the movie play back by my PS3. If it was such a killer feature, it would impact sales.

Again, are you sure it's not that you want Blu-ray support and are trying to pass it off as a "must have" feature ?

Not everybody, but some. Does everybody need to want something for Apple to deign to at least provide the option for it ? Some of the computers I sell have it for the price of a Macbook for heaven's sake.

Seeing how Blu-ray is licensed and will require some product developpement, I'm guessing that before Apple provides Blu-ray options, maybe not everyone will need to want it, but there will need to be enough demand as to cover the costs associated with implementing and selling the technology.

They aren't going to lose money over a feature that some want.

[iPastor]

I emailed the Apple Store yesterday afternoon, and within 3 hours I had two of the 2.8GHz 24" iMacs in my car. The best part? $1,200 each. What a deal. And I know I didn't really lose much over the updates, but i saved some money and got a great deal to boot!

As a bonus, they threw in the 17" MacBook Pro (late 2008) for $1,600.

I got carried away and bought all three!

[myca]

Again, what price hikes ? Apple doesn't devaluate currency.

Also, the updates were more than just RAM and HD space. The Nehalem Mac Pro's, usable GPUs in Mac Mini's, miniDisplayPort across the entire line, lower entry price for the 24" iMac, etc..

That nothing strikes you as a must buy just means these are not the updates YOU were looking for. It doesn't mean these updates aren't being welcomed by others.

Sorry, but are you ignorant or just a little slow, I was making a direct comparison of the top end 24" iMac, which in the UK over an 11 moth period has increased in cost in GBP by £440, (still $300 dollars over the US price compared to the previous $580 over the US price, both more than most state taxes on the machines) yet has had no discernible updates in specifications. I wasn't talking about the rest of the line up.

The mac mini granted has had a bone thrown to it with a better GPU and dual display, and until I see proof that the base quad core MacPro outperforms the previous base 2.8 Octo the jury is out on that update for me.

It doesn't take a genius to see that, on the top end 24" at least, there hasn't really been an update, just more Ram and HD, so even in the US its last years iMac at the same price whilst the rest of the computing world moves onto quad cores and other nice new toys. But if you're happy with last years tech in the consumer models, then so be it.

-----------------------
No matter what happens with the mac, as long as the iPhone farts people will be happy :)

[KnightWRX]

Sorry, but are you ignorant or just a little slow, I was making a direct comparison of the top end 24" iMac, which in the UK over an 11 moth period has increased in cost in GBP by £440, (still $300 dollars over the US price compared to the previous $580 over the US price, both more than most state taxes on the machines) yet has had no discernible updates in specifications. I wasn't talking about the rest of the line up.

Wait wait wait. I'm ignorant or slow, so slow down here. You're saying that the 1799£ iMac 24" top end model at 1.40$ exchange rate with 15% VAT included is more expensive by 300$ than a 2199$ model + 15% VAT ?

Because it seems to me it comes to pretty much the same price. US price + 15% is 2528.85$, UK price, after currency conversion is 2518.60$.

So actually, you're getting a 10$ rebate. How is that a "hike" ? Explain it for the slow folk please.

[myca]

Wait wait wait. I'm ignorant or slow, so slow down here. You're saying that the 1799£ iMac 24" top end model at 1.40$ exchange rate with 15% VAT included is more expensive by 300$ than a 2199$ model + 15% VAT ?

Because it seems to me it comes to pretty much the same price. US price + 15% is 2528.85$, UK price, after currency conversion is 2518.60$.

So actually, you're getting a 10$ rebate. How is that a "hike" ? Explain it for the slow folk please.

Which states have 15% sales tax?? just curious as most appear to have less than 10%, so it still works out cheaper in the US, but that's not really the point I'm trying to make, plus my calculator widget is getting tired now with all the math :)

Sorry, I am just being a bit of a tw*t at the moment, but the point I am trying to make is that the increase in price in the UK wouldn't seem as excessive if the machine had been upgraded, and your argument over exchange rates would be easier to swallow, but IMO the 24" iMac hasn't seen any real upgrade at all, the extra ram and HD don't kick it as an upgrade after 11 months, plus the UK didn't feel any love when the pound was worth 2 dollars, Apple still priced it at about 1.5 dollars to the pound, or there abouts.

-----------------------
No matter what happens with the mac, as long as the iPhone farts people will be happy :)

[KnightWRX]

Which states have 15% sales tax?? just curious as most appear to have less than 10%, so it still works out cheaper in the US, but that's not really the point I'm trying to make, plus my calculator widget is getting tired now with all the math :)

The UK has 15% VAT included in the price (1799 GBP includes this tax). Hence why all US prices need to have 15% added to them since none of them include any tax at all. You can't compare the base price from the sites directly, Apple isn't responsible for tax either. They don't get to keep that money, they have to give it back to the UK government.

So basically, no, the US and UK prices are the same (10$ in favor of the UK even).

[primalman]

Is the keyboard with keypad option free or extra?

Do people ever do any freaking research or relay on second hand, possibly incorrect info? My God do some looking! It is all there available! ACK!

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[primalman]

Well i will be buying direct at an apple store. does anybody know if they offer a choice there or will i have to make do with the bundled mini keyboard?

Did you even read the quote you quoted?

[paolo-]

Can someone help explain to me what the advantage is of having an "nvidia chipset"? How is this different from the graphics card itself? I understand that snow leopard is going to take advantage of the computational power of the grahphics card in order to speed things up... but what's the difference between using the graphics card and using "the chipset"? I have the now-previous generation iMac 24" 3.06GHz with Geforce 8800 GS graphics card. Will my computer significantly underperform a similarly equipped computer with an "nvidia chipset" with snow leopard?

Kind of sad no one awnsered this one. The 'nvidia chipset' has one less key component.

http://images.appleinsider.com/insidemb2-081017-2.png

Essentially, the whole southbridge and video card are in one chip. Making for a more streamlined designed. Especially in snow leopard, once the video cards will be able to do tasks other than video. One of the benifit will be that the video card will be able to carry out tasks without having to wait for other parts of the southbridge.

Mind you, it's possible that I'm completely wrong.

[queshy]

Too many complainers about lack of blue ray.

If you want blu ray, buy a PS3 and hook it up to your big screen TV if you have one. It will be much better than watching blue ray films on an iMac screen. Secondly, if you want to burn these discs or something, go buy another computer -there's about 10 000 other PC models that can do this.

Checking the online store it looks like the fullsize keyboard is no extra cost, they are listed as:
Apple Keyboard
Apple Wireless Keyboard (Add $30)
Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad.

The only concern I would have is the physical stores and what sort of demand they will see for mini keyboard vs full keyboard and whether the confusion will lead people to return for a full keyboard and such. Having not seen the packaging hopefully it is kind of obvious through them using different images.

Will be interesting to see how the consumer handles it, removal of floppy drives really wasn't earth shattering as in many ways their purpose was overated and other options were available.

as I said - by default they should ship all iMacs with full keyboard and let the smaller one be an "online option" or something. People will be very disappointed since most do use the number pad.

[myca]

The UK has 15% VAT included in the price (1799 GBP includes this tax). Hence why all US prices need to have 15% added to them since none of them include any tax at all. You can't compare the base price from the sites directly, Apple isn't responsible for tax either. They don't get to keep that money, they have to give it back to the UK government.

So basically, no, the US and UK prices are the same (10$ in favor of the UK even).

I'm sorry but you're working it out backwards, plus I don't need a lesson in how VAT works thanking you kindly ;)

US base price = $2199 = £1544.03

add VAT at 15% = UK retail price of £1775.64, so rather than being $10 in favour of the UK it's £23.35 in favour of the US as the UK retail price is £1799.

But again arguing the pedantics over currency an VAT isn't what I'm trying to say, it's the fact that 11 months ago some random person could have seen the iMac and thought 'Not too shabby' same person walks in an apple store today they'll see the 'New' iMac with no real new features at a higher price and think 'WTF'.

So I can't see too many being sold in the current economic climate in the UK at least, but if they'd have actually upgraded the machine the price would seem more reasonable.

And I can't understand how you don't see that even though the price has remained constant in the US, the cost of making them will have dropped, as it's using last years components :confused:

-----------------------
No matter what happens with the mac, as long as the iPhone farts people will be happy :)

[romanaz]

anyone else see this on the tech page?

Audio
Built-in stereo speakers
Internal 24-watt digital amplifier
Headphone/optical digital audio output (minijack)
Audio line in/optical digital audio input (minijack)
Built-in microphone
Support for Apple Stereo Headset with microphone

[Lesser Evets]

Too many complainers about lack of blue ray.


I agree. It's over rated anyway. I have a PS3 and rarely watch any Blu-Ray.

[waronxmas]

Just upgraded to the 3.06/nvidia 130 and LOOOOOOVES it!

This is big for me because this is the first time I've upgraded since 2003. That's right, 2003. No I'm not a clueless non-technical person. In fact I design/code flash for technical instruction. I've been putting off upgrading my poor little 1 ghz G4 iMac waiting for the next best thing. Sure, I've could have waited for the Corei7 iMacs NEXT YEAR, but as some one told me that if you love Macs and you need to upgrade then do it now and stop complaining.

[gmanrique]

you call others ignorant and slow, and then come back with this response??

Those smilies don't help much with the 'fastness' you are showing.
:rolleyes:

Which states have 15% sales tax?? just curious as most appear to have less than 10%, so it still works out cheaper in the US, but that's not really the point I'm trying to make, plus my calculator widget is getting tired now with all the math :)

Sorry, I am just being a bit of a tw*t at the moment, but the point I am trying to make is that the increase in price in the UK wouldn't seem as excessive if the machine had been upgraded, and your argument over exchange rates would be easier to swallow, but IMO the 24" iMac hasn't seen any real upgrade at all, the extra ram and HD don't kick it as an upgrade after 11 months, plus the UK didn't feel any love when the pound was worth 2 dollars, Apple still priced it at about 1.5 dollars to the pound, or there abouts.

-----------------------
No matter what happens with the mac, as long as the iPhone farts people will be happy :)

[myca]

you call others ignorant and slow, and then come back with this response??

Those smilies don't help much with the 'fastness' you are showing.
:rolleyes:

I think you missed the point, in fact that argument lost the point, plus I apologised and admitted I was being a tw*t.

and FYI I'm as fast as a hare (may have a little myxomatosis, but who cares)

[toujames]

Is the keyboard with keypad option free or extra?

its free if you configure online

[gmcalpin]

anyone else see this on the tech page?

dot dot dot
Support for Apple Stereo Headset with microphone

No, but it's nothing a new product, if that's what you were thinking.

http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MA814LL/A

[toujames]

:(

In the context of less computer value, which a lot of people post as their feeling about the iMac updates, I'm not happy with the keyboard. Regardless of people's use, it seems like a cheap move.

I don't know other peoples habits, but I use the keypad often.

Do YOUR RESEARCH FIRST!!!!!!YOU CAN STILL GET A FULL KEYBOARD WITH KEYPAD, ONLINE ONLY YOU CAN CONFIGURE FREE KEYBOARD WITH KEYPAD FOR FREE INSTEAD OF THE ONE WITHOUT KEYPAD!!!!!!!!!

[toujames]

No, but it's nothing a new product, if that's what you were thinking.

http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MA814LL/A

What he meant was that the new iMac supports the stereo headset. (im using it right now with my iphone headset, the mic does work!!!!so does the Button!!!!)

[Bubba Satori]

I agree. It's over rated anyway. I have a PS3 and rarely watch any Blu-Ray.

Fine. Look, this isn't rocket science. If you don't want it, you don't have to get it. But just because some luddites don't want it in a feeble attempt to rationalize Apple's failure to provide it, doesn't mean the rest who do want it, shouldn't at least have an option to get it.

Why is this so hard to understand for the apologists of all the things that Apple doesn't at least give you the option of ordering ? Jeebus. :mad:

Give customers the bloody chance to choose for themselves. Just do it.

[Aries326]

Underpowered and overpriced. I'll stick to my Shuttle SG33G5 Hackintosh with a QuadCore Q6600 running at 2.7ghz, 4GB of RAM, x1950gt (will upgrade to a 9800gt soon) and 1TB of storage.

But in all fairness to Apple, if someone didn't want to go through all the trouble I had to, the Mini is perfect out of the box. It is sexier and greener than my Shuttle. Makes my Shuttle look like a tower.

[BenRoethig]

Maybe you should check out how the new iMac compares (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/03/04/new_imacs_offer_more_value_than_competition_report.html) to some of the competitors before continuing to bash it and Apple.

Those competitors haven't been updated yet.

What I like about the hardware refresh:
- Video processor upgrade ATi 4850
- DDR3 RAM, 4 GB Standard

What I don't like about the hardware refresh:
-No Quad-Core Processor

I won't be purchasing until Mid-July anyway, and I wonder if on Steve Jobs' return; Apple may do Quad-Core hardware update for iMac.
I want my new iMac to come with OS X 10.6 and a Quad Core, which is why I'm holding off - as well as there being a $1300 hole in my iMac budget. :rolleyes:

A short cycle for the higher end machines is not out of the realm of possibility. They use the same exact CPUs as the last revision. That being said, I don't know if the iMac could handle the extra 10w and it would but heads with the quad core MacPro in Apple's somewhat detached view of the computer world. Honestly, they're too erratic these days to have any clue what they're going to do.

[hNicolas]

I bought my new iMac 24" 2.8, exactly 3 weeks ago, I was seriously considering upgrading and paying the 10% restocking fee when the new ones arrived. (and crossed my fingers and hoped they arrived within a month) After seeing the new ones, I quickly took option #2, a $250.00 rebate from my Apple store today. I now have a great machine at a good price. I couldn't be HAPPIER!:)

[poxonyou]

Well, I was resady to buy an iMac assuming they went at least Core 2 Quad (like Dell's AIO has been), but I can't justify paying the high price for over 1 year old processors with mostly the same nVidia cards (renamed). I'm going to wait until this Apple event and decide what to do. There's a small chance they'll introduce a new consumer tower line (highly doubt it) or a MacBook/MBP update (doubt it). I'll probably I'll either do nothing (keeping my VAIO laptop and patiently waiting for a fix so Hackintosh can properly utilize the video card) or get a refurbished MBP. It's not the best deal if you compare it to PC laptops, but the profit margin is likely not as obscene as it is on their refreshed iMac and mini lines. The downside is no longer being able to video out to my SDTV (as I can with my VAIO which has S-Video out) and not having a monitor to serve as a TV replacement (another $400 to spend if I want a fairly decent one).:(

[kiang]

So now they ship it with a handicapped keyboard, nice...

The thing is I don't really miss the numpad, I miss the home/end/pageup/pagedown keys, I use those all the time! Now you have to press fn+arrow or something, which makes is, imo, way less comfortable.

[mrklaw]

Blu-ray isn't the only HD video source. You're thinking about producing Blu-ray discs using a Mac. I fail to see how this has any link with a Blu-ray drive in a Mac Mini or iMac as you won't be editing HD video on those either, only playing back movies or using BD-Rs for data storage.
.

what are you talking about? I've edited HD video on my old white macbook just fine. macs are a great platform for HD video editing. I can even output in BDrom format to a DVD or memory card, for playback on a PS3. A bluray drive would be the perfect companion.

as for 'oh I have a ps3 connected to a big tv'. So do I. That means I have a collection of blurays. It'd be nice to be able to play them somewhere other than my lounge. Or do you suggest I buy two copies of the movie, one on DVD?

As for 'not everyone wants it' - thats a dumb excuse. I'm not suggesting its a default - perhaps a custom option, or built into a higher end machine. Apple used CDRW/superdrive as a pretty compelling upsell in their range - I certainly wouldn't have bought a CDRW only machine therefore I spent more than Id' like to. Now all machines have superdrives so they have no optical drive options. Adding bluray would encourage me personally (and Im' sure others) to upgrade to that machine. Bingo - more revenue for apple.

[koobcamuk]

as for 'oh I have a ps3 connected to a big tv'. So do I. That means I have a collection of blurays. It'd be nice to be able to play them somewhere other than my lounge. Or do you suggest I buy two copies of the movie, one on DVD?

I think this is literally what the big studio expects. In the UK at least, you'd break copyright by downloading from disc onto a hard drive.

[boer]

There are two types of graphics:

- integrated (chipset directly on the motherbord)
- separate graphics card


This is not correct. Integrated graphics refers to an integrated chip that does graphics among other things. Discrete graphics refers to a dedicated graphics chip. Whether chips are mounted on one single motherboard or not has no relevance in this.

[redgaz26]

the low end 24 should be enough for most of us. here in the UK it's £75 more but you get double the RAM and double the hard drive.
the other two 24's are very pricey I admit but the first one is good enough for me and most others.

[Hazey Jane]

I sat out the long and painful wait for the updates, then when they finally arrived I realized I would be better buying a pre-update version.

I've just unboxed my new 24" iMac 3.06GHz w/Geforce 8800 GS graphics card. I LOVE IT! I'm not a huge fan of the flat keyboard, feels a bit weird, but I guess I'll get used to that. At least it has a keypad as I would be really gutted if that was missing. :p

The best bit about my decision to buy the pre-updated version is that I saved myself enough money to buy a Wacom Intuos A4. :):):)

Sounds like I made the right decision.
Now I'm off to play with my new toys!

[pingin]

Personally, I'm happy with these upgrades! I'm going from a powerbook G4 so the performance boost is going to be phenomenal! I think more RAM is great, and having 1 TB hard disk space is a huge plus. I'm trying to keep within budget so what I've decided to do is get the 2.93 GHz model and upgrade to 1TB and the HD 4850 graphics card (I'm not in a rush). And I live in Europe so the prices have gone up for me but it's still good value as far as I'm concerned.

[lewchenko]

Which states have 15% sales tax?? just curious as most appear to have less than 10%, so it still works out cheaper in the US, but that's not really the point I'm trying to make, plus my calculator widget is getting tired now with all the math :)

Sorry, I am just being a bit of a tw*t at the moment, but the point I am trying to make is that the increase in price in the UK wouldn't seem as excessive if the machine had been upgraded, and your argument over exchange rates would be easier to swallow, but IMO the 24" iMac hasn't seen any real upgrade at all, the extra ram and HD don't kick it as an upgrade after 11 months, plus the UK didn't feel any love when the pound was worth 2 dollars, Apple still priced it at about 1.5 dollars to the pound, or there abouts.

-----------------------
No matter what happens with the mac, as long as the iPhone farts people will be happy :)



So very true. £1800 now for the same machine you can still buy from some places at £1350.... and the technology is practically the same.

Even if you forget costs... this iMAC has not increased in power (GPU + CPU) at all in the top end.

That sucks... Over a year now.. and no advances. Worst update ever. I spoke with 3 retailers today about iMacs and they say their customers are actually ringing up asking for the old models... not the new ones LOL !

[spcdust]

I really cannot see how anyone could regard this latest refresh of the iMac range as anything but uninspiring, it really does seem an interim update. Sure, it's still a decent enough computer but I think technically it will date a lot faster than many of the previous refreshes we've seen of the iMac range as it doesn't seem to have made much of a progression from a year ago (and some would say longer).

Regarding the pricing here in the UK, yes the Pound is weak but as others have stated, we didn't actually benefit pro rata when the Pound was strong. It's all relative to the local markets and the current prices of the iMac do seem stick out like a sore thumb. Potential switchers will look at the price tag and inevitably do a like for like comparison of the PC market and could be put off.

Myself, I'd love to upgrade my trusty but definitely ageing 800Mhz PPC 17" G4 Angle poise iMac and I've got the money to do it. However I'm going to sit this refresh out and hope that the next update will be a bit more significant (and sooner than 10/11 months) and be worth the premium price tag. It's lucky I use Mac Pros at work so the need to upgrade is some what relieved.

[lewchenko]

Just upgraded to the 3.06/nvidia 130 and LOOOOOOVES it!

This is big for me because this is the first time I've upgraded since 2003. That's right, 2003. No I'm not a clueless non-technical person. In fact I design/code flash for technical instruction. I've been putting off upgrading my poor little 1 ghz G4 iMac waiting for the next best thing. Sure, I've could have waited for the Corei7 iMacs NEXT YEAR, but as some one told me that if you love Macs and you need to upgrade then do it now and stop complaining.


You could have upgraded to this model 11 months ago and it would have been cheaper too. Im glad you like your new machine, but seriously... its the same as the one it replaced practically.

no new advances in CPU or GPU in 11 months whilst the PC world has quad cores as standard and decent graphics cards as their mid range 260GTX atleast.

The GPU on this model (130) is the same renamed GPU as the 8800GS. It beggars belief.

[KnightWRX]

what are you talking about? I've edited HD video on my old white macbook just fine. macs are a great platform for HD video editing. I can even output in BDrom format to a DVD or memory card, for playback on a PS3. A bluray drive would be the perfect companion.

as for 'oh I have a ps3 connected to a big tv'. So do I. That means I have a collection of blurays. It'd be nice to be able to play them somewhere other than my lounge. Or do you suggest I buy two copies of the movie, one on DVD?

As for 'not everyone wants it' - thats a dumb excuse. I'm not suggesting its a default - perhaps a custom option, or built into a higher end machine. Apple used CDRW/superdrive as a pretty compelling upsell in their range - I certainly wouldn't have bought a CDRW only machine therefore I spent more than Id' like to. Now all machines have superdrives so they have no optical drive options. Adding bluray would encourage me personally (and Im' sure others) to upgrade to that machine. Bingo - more revenue for apple.

You can already buy Blu-Ray drives for Macs which you can use to read BD-ROM (not sure about burning BD-R). You just can't watch movies in OS X right now, but using Bootcamp for Windows and PowerDVD, you can play back the movies.

Apple is probably sore about the licensing cost and Blu-ray penetration is still very low. Give them time and if the technology proves that it's a must have like DVD was, they'll get around to having it.

Again, gripes about not being able to edit and produce Blu-ray movies are valid, but I don't think the market for HD video editing on a Mini or iMac would justify the costs of giving a Blu-ray option at a price point that is competitive.

[diamond.g]

Kind of sad no one awnsered this one. The 'nvidia chipset' has one less key component.

http://images.appleinsider.com/insidemb2-081017-2.png

Essentially, the whole southbridge and video card are in one chip. Making for a more streamlined designed. Especially in snow leopard, once the video cards will be able to do tasks other than video. One of the benifit will be that the video card will be able to carry out tasks without having to wait for other parts of the southbridge.

Mind you, it's possible that I'm completely wrong.

You are more or less correct.

[jackfrost123]

So now they ship it with a handicapped keyboard, nice...

The thing is I don't really miss the numpad, I miss the home/end/pageup/pagedown keys, I use those all the time! Now you have to press fn+arrow or something, which makes is, imo, way less comfortable.
Amen, they are morons for not thinking about that, they have already downsized these keys (inexcplicably cause they aint savings space) on the lappies and now they done away with on these keyboards, way to go apple, another way to force you buy an "extended" keyboard as an accesory...

[jackfrost123]

You are more or less correct.

Wait a sec, so who's making apple's mobos for macbooks nowadays? Are they custom? Is it nvidia? I am confused...

[diamond.g]

Wait a sec, so who's making apple's mobos for macbooks nowadays? Are they custom? Is it nvidia? I am confused...

Well according to google, Quanta Computer, Foxconn, and Asustech Computer make Macbooks. Not too sure if it is the same for the mobo as well. I do know that nvidia doesn't make motherboards.

[Wikinerd]

Where can one find the old 2008 models at a discount? Retail stores only?

online store only. look in the "refurbished" section.

[KnightWRX]

Amen, they are morons for not thinking about that, they have already downsized these keys (inexcplicably cause they aint savings space) on the lappies and now they done away with on these keyboards, way to go apple, another way to force you buy an "extended" keyboard as an accesory...

You are not forced to buy the "extended" keyboard as an accessory. It's a free option, basically, you choose which one you want.

[macstatic]

Even if you forget costs... this iMAC has not increased in power (GPU + CPU) at all in the top end.

Does this apply to the 20" model as well?

[rawlus]

Bluray prob won't even be viable 5 years from now. It seems to be struggling now while streaming & downloaded media is where all the regular advancements and innovation seemto be coming from. The quality jump from upscaled Dvd to Bluray is just not as compelling as itcwas way back when we were moving from VHS to DVD. At that time DVD was practically a mandate. Bluray is hohum in comparison.

[kurosov]

Did you even read the quote you quoted?

Of course i did.

When you place the order you get to select the keyboard. You can specify either with or without the numeric pad for the same price

Nowhere does it give the answer to my question.

[MH01]

So basically, it took Apple all year to remove a processor from the lineup, replace a FW 400 port with a USB port, change the RAM type, and give it integrated graphics on the first two models *blank stare*.

It also took them a year to think of cheeky alternate names for the same GPUs.... but it gets better....if your outside of the US, you also get to pay 25% + more for the what is essentially the same machine it was last week. Unless you buy the base model....then you paying more for worse performance.

You might as well call this a Shareholder refresh, cause it screws anyway outside the US. Damn you Americans... I wish the British peso was stronger!!!!! (and also wish apple gave us a discount when it was $2 : £1)

The thing that gave me a chuckle was that Apple is in Bed with Nvidia and yet they have choosen the 4850 and 4870 as their premium GPUs....again based on the much lower cost of the ATI offerings.

[MH01]

The UK has 15% VAT included in the price (1799 GBP includes this tax). Hence why all US prices need to have 15% added to them since none of them include any tax at all. You can't compare the base price from the sites directly, Apple isn't responsible for tax either. They don't get to keep that money, they have to give it back to the UK government.

So basically, no, the US and UK prices are the same (10$ in favor of the UK even).

I have seen this throw around the forums in the last few days, everyone is saying "the currency ratio is $1.4 : £1, so the prices are the same" Yes, go to xe.com and they are the same.

Some points.

1. What people are missing, people outside of the US have to suddenly pay 25% + more for the same product they would have bought last week. And given the fact that our wages have not gone up 25% that is a hefty increase.
2. Computer tech is one of the fastest consumer products that falls in price dramatically within a year, and given the products are all but the same, the cost of the components has dropped way more then 25%. Had this update offered something new and exciting we would not be complaining
3. Last year the Dollar was hammered, Apple never adjusted their prices, people were actually going over to NY etc to buy products cause it was worth their while, I remember being in NY and there were so many europeans shopping there. Its irritating that when the Dollar does well apple makes extra $$$$$ and when the dollar does poorly, apple makes extra $$$$$. I am all for prices getting adjusted to the current economic climate, but lets have it both ways. Damit these computers are made in china now.
4. If you are going to charge us more....please improve the QA (not relevant , but i wish they would improve the QA if they rise the $$$$)

I love apple products, but living outside of the US, its a pity that we have to pay so much more now. I would have liked apple to keep their prices down during the recession, resulting in a markert growth, instead they have decided to rise their prices and loose potential switchers. I for one cannot recommend a mac to anyone right now, they are just so overpriced, a hackintosh is so much better value till the american dollar settles.

[KnightWRX]

1. What people are missing, people outside of the US have to suddenly pay 25% + more for the same product they would have bought last week. And given the fact that our wages have not gone up 25% that is a hefty increase.

That is the result of a fluctuating currency unfortunately, lost of purchasing power.

When the US dollar was weak last year, Apple was probably paying more to Asia for the same machines (they pay in US dollars, the Asians charge in asian currency for parts/assembly/shipping).

I'm in Canada. Monday, a Mac Mini was 649$. Now it's 729$. Last year I bought my tires in the United States because 1$C was 1$US and tires were dirt cheap in the US and Canadian dealers hadn't adjusted their prices. Today, I would buy them locally because of the exchange rate.

We never saw parity prices with the US either and now that our currency is once again weaker, we're seeing the readjustments vs the US price. But I won't blame Apple for it, there's not much they can do about it.

[DyingSun]

Here's what everybody should be complaining about and strangely ain't!

iMacs kept the same bad-quality displays, namely the 20'' TN model.

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/iMac-20-Inch/658/2

http://auo.com/auoDEV/products.php?sec=monitor&func=info&product_id=111&items_id=1

Why haven't they upgraded the displays to LED, it would be so obvious! :confused:

[Mac4Brains]

At one point, with Apple’s beige ADB mouse, Apple mice were considered to be a thing of beauty, which was used in artwork and photographs at the time. Than Apple came out with the worst/ugliest mouse ever seen in the computer market “The Puck”. The current ones are not considered the worst ones on the market sense “The Puck” will forever hold that title. Not to mention that to replace an Apple mouse with another one can include an exuberant price tag while a good third party mouse can be a third the price.

Now Apple is in a transition to take a decent keyboard and replace it with the biggest peace of trash they can find. To make tings worse they are removing the numerical keypad. Sadly there currently is no keyboard that is a decent replacement to the current Apple “a third the quality at 4 times the price” model, without paying over $100. All this while in the PC market you can get a good USB keyboard for $10 (minus the buttons that are needed for a Macintosh). At one point Apple even had a super convenient power button directly on the keyboard, that is no longer present, but the abilities to support it still are.

Now we are being forced to sacrifice Firewire 400 for USB 2.0. I would love to send Apple a bill for the external DVD/RW, and 6 hard drives I have on my Firewire bus (ALL OF THEM ARE BOOTABLE). So I can replace them with the super slow and unreliable USB devices. The 16XDVD/RW I have would be totally obsolete since USB doesn’t have the bandwidth to make it worthwhile to have a 16X. Not to mention the replacement (If anything will work at all) of my bootable 8GB Firewire thumb drive I use to repair my computers, since Firewire is bootable, I paid $400 for the thing. This is on top of the PC market just starting to adopt Firewire built on to the motherboards.

Now the rumor mill is a buzz with the new possessors that Intel is coming out with that are going to be used in the “High end Macs” while I can get a Dell that has 6 cores and 4 chipsets for a total of 24 possessors in a single computer, while the best Apple has only 8 in total.

I am the senior Mac Teck at an ISP and I get bombarded with the “What are you using a Mac for, get a real computer” crap and in the end they are winning the argument sense all the good points about Apple I could have made are vanishing.
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[danvan21]

Very disappointed by lack of numeric keypad. :( I'm not going to spend another 100 bucks for the alu full size kb (that's the price in here).

This is so bad, the entire new product line.. so sad :(

they keyboard is free... not sure how you missed that one

[danvan21]

At one point, with Apple’s beige ADB mouse, Apple mice were considered to be a thing of beauty, which was used in artwork and photographs at the time. Than Apple came out with the worst/ugliest mouse ever seen in the computer market “The Puck”. The current ones are not considered the worst ones on the market sense “The Puck” will forever hold that title. Not to mention that to replace an Apple mouse with another one can include an exuberant price tag while a good third party mouse can be a third the price.

Now Apple is in a transition to take a decent keyboard and replace it with the biggest peace of trash they can find. To make tings worse they are removing the numerical keypad. Sadly there currently is no keyboard that is a decent replacement to the current Apple “a third the quality at 4 times the price” model, without paying over $100. All this while in the PC market you can get a good USB keyboard for $10 (minus the buttons that are needed for a Macintosh). At one point Apple even had a super convenient power button directly on the keyboard, that is no longer present, but the abilities to support it still are.

Now we are being forced to sacrifice Firewire 400 for USB 2.0. I would love to send Apple a bill for the external DVD/RW, and 6 hard drives I have on my Firewire bus (ALL OF THEM ARE BOOTABLE). So I can replace them with the super slow and unreliable USB devices. The 16XDVD/RW I have would be totally obsolete since USB doesn’t have the bandwidth to make it worthwhile to have a 16X. Not to mention the replacement (If anything will work at all) of my bootable 8GB Firewire thumb drive I use to repair my computers, since Firewire is bootable, I paid $400 for the thing. This is on top of the PC market just starting to adopt Firewire built on to the motherboards.

Now the rumor mill is a buzz with the new possessors that Intel is coming out with that are going to be used in the “High end Macs” while I can get a Dell that has 6 cores and 4 chipsets for a total of 24 possessors in a single computer, while the best Apple has only 8 in total.

I am the senior Mac Teck at an ISP and I get bombarded with the “What are you using a Mac for, get a real computer” crap and in the end they are winning the argument sense all the good points about Apple I could have made are vanishing.
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:



...then buy a macbook pro or the plastic macbook or a mac pro or an imac. my goodness people complain a lot.

[Arcady]

Now we are being forced to sacrifice Firewire 400 for USB 2.0. I would love to send Apple a bill for the external DVD/RW, and 6 hard drives I have on my Firewire bus (ALL OF THEM ARE BOOTABLE). So I can replace them with the super slow and unreliable USB devices. The 16XDVD/RW I have would be totally obsolete since USB doesn’t have the bandwidth to make it worthwhile to have a 16X. Not to mention the replacement (If anything will work at all) of my bootable 8GB Firewire thumb drive I use to repair my computers, since Firewire is bootable, I paid $400 for the thing. This is on top of the PC market just starting to adopt Firewire built on to the motherboards.

You know that FireWire 800 supports FireWire 400 devices, right? Just buy a $9 cable. Or buy a $29 FireWire hub. You know that USB drives are bootable on Intel Macs, right?

I am the senior Mac Teck at an ISP

You're a "Mac Teck" huh? Ok, maybe you didn't know these things...

[Bubba Satori]

Bluray prob won't even be viable 5 years from now. It seems to be struggling now while streaming & downloaded media is where all the regular advancements and innovation seemto be coming from. The quality jump from upscaled Dvd to Bluray is just not as compelling as itcwas way back when we were moving from VHS to DVD. At that time DVD was practically a mandate. Bluray is hohum in comparison.

What a joke. You can't can't be serious or you are a reflexive Apple apologist for not including Blu-ray when everybody else on the planet has it. Must be embarassing.

We can't keep Blu-ray players stocked in my store. They fly off the shelves. Customers see King Kong or Dark Knight being demoed and their jaws hit the floor. The quality increase is amazing and when it's hooked up to a good surround sound system they can't believe the quality. I've had customers stand in front of the Samsung Touch of Color TVs and watch the whole demo Blu-ray twice. Since we've had Blu-ray I haven't had a single customer, not one, say "ho hum", out of the thousands I've shown it to. It's rediculous. :rolleyes:

[AdamJD]

1) I buy Macs for the OS.

2) The iMac is the perfect machine for me and many others, but I absolutely cannot deal with the glare monitor....should be called the iMirror after seeing the engadget picture.

3) I'm still on a 2002 Dual G4 1Ghz machine editing video - so I need a new Mac more than you (yes, I do! :eek:). However, being toyed with is insulting. When Apple says "here are these super slick machines that do the job perfect, but if you don't like seeing your balding head while typing nerdy messages on MacRumors, spend an extra $1,000 for a tower an get an anti-glare montior" - I get really aggravated.

4) No problem with the keyboard being a free option, but I have a major problem with it not being an option if buying in the store (because I don't like waiting for shipping-yeah, my personal issue on that one :) ).

5) IMHO Blue-ray should be included in the towers and an option for the iMacs. It should also come in red, green, and a hunter-green-ray.

[IMPMAC]

The bottom line is with people that are disappointed with the updates is that people are too use to apple bringing out "WOW" technology in every refresh. And when they dont, they all get up in arms saying: "these updates are ****, what were you thinking apple". But you never hear that kind of reaction with other computer manufacturers. Do you?

Just think: The current state of the economy is not that good looking. This means that you will have to get use to the slowdown for a while. And when things improve, everybody will be happy. Apple cannot afford to take major risks, and so do other companies.

[ccalleri]

Hey! You can use it as a mirror too! :cool:

[EmperorDarius]

Why isn't the 3.06 GHz Early 2009 iMac in the benchmarks? Or it will score the same as the old 3.06?

[AdamJD]

But you never hear that kind of reaction with other computer manufacturers. Do you?

Well, on the Windoze side, people would just go to another hardware manufacturer. We're stuck with one. Years ago, when we had a choice, people didn't complain - they went to Powerbase, Newer, or something.

If the simple concerns were answered - going back to the iGlare, it would surely help calm the waters. I actually expected the bluetooth keyboard to get keypad back! I'm worried my white BT w/keypad will die on me - last one did.

The discussions (including complaints) are good for getting to the bottom of things - but some of the complaints could have waited for the benchmarks to show up.

[Sehnsucht]

This is the Mac version of Microsoft Downgrade, it should be printed in the box: "Welcome to the new Apple, Downgrade! The Down Starts Now!"

WTF?!

[iSnow]

I love how Apple keeps taking away functionality little by little. While 90% of users probably don't use the number pad, for apps like Maya and After Effects, it is all but essential. By removing features like firewire, the number pad, dedicated graphics, matte screen... Apple further frustrates the creative professional crowd.
You got to be kidding me. Seriously.

a) You can "upgrade" to the full keyboard at no additional cost
b) You tell me someone is going to buy Maya but would be alienated by a small keyboard even if the upgrade cost extra?
c) Apple has taken away HW-Features for like 10 years. SCSI, NuBus, ADB, Floppy... all fell by the wayside. It has resulted in a whinefest all the time, but had no negative consequences (even some positives, thinking of floppy disks). I for once believe 90% of all users don't need a keypad (I just ordered a Mini with the tiny keyboard - much better looking and convenient).
d) Firewire has not been removed in the mini and iMac. Fact is, it has been upgraded in the mini. Same goes for the GPU.

[Sehnsucht]

You know that FireWire 800 supports FireWire 400 devices, right? Just buy a $9 cable. Or buy a $29 FireWire hub. You know that USB drives are bootable on Intel Macs, right?

USB drives are HORRIFICALLY slow. I just had to move 60+ gigabytes of crap from a PC to a Mac with a USB hard drive and it was a bitch and a half. :rolleyes:

[newb16]

In the context of less computer value, which a lot of people post as their feeling about the iMac updates, I'm not happy with the keyboard. Regardless of people's use, it seems like a cheap move.

But now it's neat and stylish, and matches one's iphone!

[jackfrost123]

Well according to google, Quanta Computer, Foxconn, and Asustech Computer make Macbooks. Not too sure if it is the same for the mobo as well. I do know that nvidia doesn't make motherboards.

Exactly, thanks btw.

[MrCrowbar]

Just saw this on geekbrief.tv:

http://sinewalker.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/eeekeyboard.jpg
That's the ASUS eeeKeyboard. It's basically a Netbook in a different form factor that hooks up to TVs via HDMI.

I so hope Apple makes something in this direction. Yes, the keys are backlit and that is a touchscreen on the right. :eek:

[riviera]

Hi, I'm completely new on the forum, although I've been around Mac Rumors for some time now waiting for news on these updates because my imac dates back from 2002 (the pretty, halph-sphere one with the screen moving in every direction - sigh).

now I've read every single message on this thread (yes, even the dozen silly ones on the keyboard choice), and I'm puzzled: is the general opinion that I should wait a couple more months for a more substantial update? Or buy a refurbished 2008 imac?:confused:

plus, I would really like to have snow leopard on my new mac, anyone knows when it's due?

[jackfrost123]

Just saw this on geekbrief.tv:

http://sinewalker.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/eeekeyboard.jpg
That's the ASUS eeeKeyboard. It's basically a Netbook in a different form factor that hooks up to TVs via HDMI.

I so hope Apple makes something in this direction. Yes, the keys are backlit and that is a touchscreen on the right. :eek:

Wow whtat great f.cking product, innovation...

[jackfrost123]

Hi, I'm completely new on the forum, although I've been around Mac Rumors for some time now waiting for news on these updates because my imac dates back from 2002 (the pretty, halph-sphere one with the screen moving in every direction - sigh).

now I've read every single message on this thread (yes, even the dozen silly ones on the keyboard choice), and I'm puzzled: is the general opinion that I should wait a couple more months for a more substantial update? Or buy a refurbished 2008 imac?:confused:

plus, I would really like to have snow leopard on my new mac, anyone knows when it's due?

yeah that's the general opion, refurb or wait, snow leopard could take some time though, I don't see it before the end of this year...or led screeen for these macs...

[brop52]

Just saw this on geekbrief.tv:

http://sinewalker.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/eeekeyboard.jpg
That's the ASUS eeeKeyboard. It's basically a Netbook in a different form factor that hooks up to TVs via HDMI.

I so hope Apple makes something in this direction. Yes, the keys are backlit and that is a touchscreen on the right. :eek:

Looks like a Mac notebook keyboard plus backlight.

[riviera]

damn, that's annoying, all this waiting for nothing. I'm even thinking of getting a cheap PC in the meantime, to wait for the end of the year... such a depressing thought

Thanks for the advice though, and to all competent people on the forum - I've learnt a lot about NVIDIA and ATI chips today - kinda makes up for the frustration :)

[casik]

i could really care less about the smaller keyboard thing. Sure some people have use for the numeric pad like book keepers and whatnot. In all honesty tho i can tell you that no one in my immediate family actually uses the numeric keypad and I can bet for the most part if people do use it a little here and there that they will be able to adjust to the fact that it isn't there.

[jbernie]

The bottom line is with people that are disappointed with the updates is that people are too use to apple bringing out "WOW" technology in every refresh. And when they dont, they all get up in arms saying: "these updates are ****, what were you thinking apple". But you never hear that kind of reaction with other computer manufacturers. Do you?

Just think: The current state of the economy is not that good looking. This means that you will have to get use to the slowdown for a while. And when things improve, everybody will be happy. Apple cannot afford to take major risks, and so do other companies.

Last I checked the only company on the Windows side who really went out of their way to have a big event over a product release was Microsoft itself when they officially released the latest version of Windows. HP, Dell, Acer etc just keep on notching up the performance/specs of their products as newer processors arrive or part prices drop and they either cut prices or increase the specs ie larger hard drive/more ram but keep the same price.

Apple has set itself up for these big let downs by having such BIG ANNOUNCEMENTS to launch the NEXT BEST THING, and ultimately it really went south for the iTunes/iPod event last September which might have been the tipping point. It isn't necessarily that the product offerings are bad more they let the hype get so out of control that the expectations are that every update will be super super important when in fact many aren't all that interesting.

[mudenza]

Another benchmark

http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/apple-imac-24-inch/4505-3118_7-33541091.html?tag=mncol;txt

[TheAshMan]

Wrong. Dell uses the Core 2 Quads in the 24" XPS One's. http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/desktop-xps-a2420?c=us&cs=19&l=en&ref=dthp&s=dhs

Also, other manufacturers have consumer desktop options. Apple doesn't. You get a laptop in a box with no screen (mini), a laptop/crippled desktop (iMac), or an insanely expensive workstation tower.

If people don't complain and just keep buying, they have no reason to change. I imagine they're making higher than ever profit margins on this current update. Why would they voluntarily cut back on those profit margins if no one is complaining, if their sales aren't affected?
Thanks for the correction on the Dell quad, the last time I checked, they didn't. If you look at the details, the quad Dell is using is NOT i7 and uses DDR2 RAM with and 866 MHz RAM bus, which will be slower than the new iMacs, so that doesn't make the case for anything.

I mentioned the lack of an xMac, which I agree they should have (maybe). I don't know that I would call the iMac "crippled", it more than fit's the performance needs of an overwhelming majority of the market which is their main target. The fact is that the new i7 line isn't available in this form factor yet. The fact is we will see it in a matter of months.

[diamond.g]

Thanks for the correction on the Dell quad, the last time I checked, they didn't. If you look at the details, the quad Dell is using is NOT i7 and uses DDR2 RAM with and 866 MHz RAM bus, which will be slower than the new iMacs, so that doesn't make the case for anything.

I mentioned the lack of an xMac, which I agree they should have (maybe). I don't know that I would call the iMac "crippled", it more than fit's the performance needs of an overwhelming majority of the market which is their main target. The fact is that the new i7 line isn't available in this form factor yet. The fact is we will see it in a matter of months.

While the RAM speed is slower (offering less BW) the overall bus speed (FSB) is higher (1333 vs 1066). So the iMac wouldn't be faster (if the clock rate were equal).

[jimterry]

I have read every dang post on this site it seems and I am still not sure what to do. I, like many others, have been waiting for this "update" to the iMac line up. I am now stuck with trying to decide whether to march down to my local store and pick up a 3.06G and hoping they have the ATI card or just wait? I have an 03 1.25G powerbook g4 that will not edit AVHD video... this is my main aim -but I am looking for a good price point. 2.93 with the ATI card? 3.06 with the ATI card? Or just get an older model with whatever graphics card they offer. How long till the next "update"? I wish there were a hard and fast rule I could use for video editing / photoshop work (all hobby) that would help me decide.

[Val-kyrie]

Thanks (I just realized I could look that up on apple's imac page :o ). Lose the only FW 400 and gain a 4th USB? That's not a good trade, IMO.

Before yesterday, I would have agreed with you, but then I came across an article at Barefeats (http://www.barefeats.com/mbpp10.html) that demonstrated why Apple swapped the FW400 for USB - the conclusion: the new USB controller is almost as fast as FW400. In speed tests, there is now little difference between FW400 and USB with the NVidia chipsets. I haven't looked any further so I don't understand why, but the new USB controller(s) appear to be marginally, if even noticeably, slower than FW400. I am assuming that the shift to NVidia across the board means all newer Macs come with the same speed benefits to USB.

This is not good for those with lots of FW400 gear, but it at least shows some reason why Apple changed up their ports and now only include FW in the "800" variety. Only FW800 is noticeably faster than USB in the current Mac lineup. I would like to know, however, if the speed of the new USB controller is sustained or just burst speed (the latter being the biggest critique of USB of which I am aware).

[Monty1]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/03/04/unboxing-of-the-early-2009-imac/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2009/03/04/140835-2009-03-04imac-8.jpg_425.jpg

Engadget has posted (http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/04/imac-early-2009-unboxing-and-hands-on/) an unboxing gallery (http://www.engadget.com/photos/imac-march-2009-unboxing-and-hands-on/) of the new iMac. Externally, there is not much different in the new machine with the exception of a FireWire 800 port and mini DisplayPort.

Article Link: Unboxing of the Early 2009 NVIDIA iMac, Early Benchmarks (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/03/04/unboxing-of-the-early-2009-imac/)

Its "difference"

Yes I am a little typo bitch

[itommyboy]

I have read every dang post on this site it seems and I am still not sure what to do. I, like many others, have been waiting for this "update" to the iMac line up. I am now stuck with trying to decide whether to march down to my local store and pick up a 3.06G and hoping they have the ATI card or just wait? I have an 03 1.25G powerbook g4 that will not edit AVHD video... this is my main aim -but I am looking for a good price point. 2.93 with the ATI card? 3.06 with the ATI card? Or just get an older model with whatever graphics card they offer. How long till the next "update"? I wish there were a hard and fast rule I could use for video editing / photoshop work (all hobby) that would help me decide.


Jim, you are not able to walk into an Apple store right now and pick up a new iMac with the ATI card. They won't be out for 4 - 6 weeks or whenever the next version of OSX is out.

In my humble opinion you would be very well suited to try and get one of the previous model 3.06 Ghz 24" iMacs. Either from a VAR or there is one in the :apple: refurb store right now for $1,899. It is a beauty of a beast machine for that price, even after Tuesdays "updates".

It gives you (standard) a 500 GB hard drive and the Nvidia 8800 GS which is still a very good 512MB dedicated video card - in the imac arena at least. It will eat the photo/video editing you do up and spit it out. It's even nicer if you put 4GB of RAM in it vs the 2GB it comes with stock ( you can pick up 4 GB DDR2 iMac kits for about $50 - $65 with shipping right now from crucial, OWC and others). Just my 2 cents.

For what it's worth I pulled the trigger on the machine I'm suggesting to you only a week ago and have decided to keep it vs return it for a newer model - simply because the only model that is better than this one again, won't be out for 4-6 more weeks. That being said if you are willing to wait a bit longer and spend some more money, the 3.06 GHz machines with the ATI HD4850 card will indeed be the best iMacs on the block. Not to mention future proof you a good while longer.

Good luck with your decision and let us know what you purchase!

[boss1]

I've always generally agreed with the direction Apple goes with their hardware initiatives. Getting rid of the floppy drive. Trying to let go of the CD Drive etc .. but getting rid of the number pad? why? to save a few inches of space on a desk? Apple is literally turning off a large segment of the business market, & average mac consumers that appreciate a number pad for fast numerical number crunching.

[realdeal1]

ok so i been reading this thread and find it very interesting cause i feel that it is a necessity that i get the imac ... i mean it just has a lot of features things that i really want and have been looking for

im very excited about this and i appreciate all the detail information to help me make a choice thanks a ton http://**************/img/3012/y09w0131xdtc/82(2).gif

[jimterry]

Thanks itommy. Went to the apple store and it is just as you said... the ATI card is a 4-6 wk wait. I am leaning toward getting a new machine although I have been looking at that 3.06 at the refurb area of the online store. I just can't see not waiting... heck I have waited this long what is a little longer. Thanks for the help.

jt

[itommyboy]

No problem glad I could help. For what it's worth I think your making a smart move - as you said what's a few more weeks at this point and that ATI 4850 iMac will be a screamer for a long time.

[iMaggot]

no full keyboard for the desktop line? Are they nuts?

They are not nuts, they are Apple ;)

[unid]

Its "difference"

Yes I am a little typo bitch

I must correct you there then.

it's difference

[lucab1982]

Been hunting the refurb store for a long time for a 3.06Ghz 2008 model. Given that the machine was a BTO the only place you could have ordered it from was Apple.

Is there anywhere else where you can buy these refurbs from in the UK?

[myca]

Been hunting the refurb store for a long time for a 3.06Ghz 2008 model. Given that the machine was a BTO the only place you could have ordered it from was Apple.

Is there anywhere else where you can buy these refurbs from in the UK?

You could try cancom!

[KnightWRX]

I've always generally agreed with the direction Apple goes with their hardware initiatives. Getting rid of the floppy drive. Trying to let go of the CD Drive etc .. but getting rid of the number pad? why? to save a few inches of space on a desk? Apple is literally turning off a large segment of the business market, & average mac consumers that appreciate a number pad for fast numerical number crunching.

When did they get rid of the number pad ? I still see it on Apple.com and can still get a keyboard with it free on the purchase of an iMac or Mac Pro, like before...

[NomadicTy]

People buying from Apple stores would be in for an unpleasant surprise when they realize the desktop computer they bought does not have num keypads. What was Apple thinking!

Geesh, Apple, some people do non-artistic work with your computers!

[riviera]

Finally this is what I decided to do, too, thanks everyone for helping us to decide.

I, too, have waited that much and can wait a little longer to buy an iMac I will be proud of for a long time and not just half-heartedly like, wondering if I made the right purchase or not

No problem glad I could help. For what it's worth I think your making a smart move - as you said what's a few more weeks at this point and that ATI 4850 iMac will be a screamer for a long time.

[lhammer610]

no full keyboard for the desktop line? Are they nuts?

It means to me that I now have to build in the cost of a new keyboard into the purchase price. Might as well get the mini then, buy the keyboard and monitor that I want.

Sometimes Apple makes some silly choices...

[troller]

they should change their name to: ripoffle

[minik]

they should change their name to: ripoffle

Hello, troll.

[Eidorian]

Hello, troll.With age comes wisdom...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=5312190&postcount=895

[Geetus]

It has been established by this point that the apparent price hike on iMac models in the UK is not actually a price hike and more like apple adjusting for changes in currency values. I'm willing to accept that now that I've had a few days to calm down and do the maths for myself.

What I'm wondering, however, is what happens if the pound begins to regain its value (I know, a big 'if' in the current climate) and reaches the levels it used to be at compared to the US$? Will Apple be conscientious enough to re-adjust UK prices or will we be stuck with these high prices for the next 11+ months until the next iMac refresh?

On the one hand, apple hasn't seemed to be too bothered in the past when it has benefited from currency discrepancies (when the $ was 2 to 1 against the £, prices stuck). On the other hand, it seems very possible that apple desktop sales will plummet in the UK as most consumers are just going to see higher prices without much to show for them.

[jbernie]

On the one hand, apple hasn't seemed to be too bothered in the past when it has benefited from currency discrepancies (when the $ was 2 to 1 against the £, prices stuck). On the other hand, it seems very possible that apple desktop sales will plummet in the UK as most consumers are just going to see higher prices without much to show for them.

So long as the consumer sees value in the product being offered by Apple they should be ok. Though if economies continue to get worse, even if value is seen there is no gurantee that people will be willing to spend that much money and may default to a cheaper alternative for two years or more until confidence returns.

[DirtyHarry]

I hate that the high end mini is still only 2.0 ghz, if only it came with the 2.26 processor standard, that would seem trully a step forward compared to the low end mini.
I can´t decide between the minis since hd or ram can always be upgraded so the higher mini doesn´t seem that appealing to me. It's price is just too close to the lower end iMac, wich seems a better investment for the money.

Newbie question; is the 128 mb graphic card on the lower model a real difference to consider compared to the 256 mb card? Why should I consider the 256 mb card? Previous Mini had only 64 mb card so new 128 mb already doubles it.
If you were to choose between 2.26 ghz/128 mb grapchic card mini (upgraded lower mini) or a 2.0 ghz/256mb graphic card what would you choose?

[newb16]

I so hope Apple makes something in this direction. Yes, the keys are backlit and that is a touchscreen on the right. :eek:

Iphone docking station.

[3.1416]

Newbie question; is the 128 mb graphic card on the lower model a real difference to consider compared to the 256 mb card? Why should I consider the 256 mb card? Previous Mini had only 64 mb card so new 128 mb already doubles it.There's no difference between the "cards". If you only have 1GB RAM the GPU will only use 128MB. If you have 2GB or more it will use 256MB, so you can get the 1GB mini and upgrade later.

[gmcalpin]

It means to me that I now have to build in the cost of a new keyboard into the purchase price. Might as well get the mini then, buy the keyboard and monitor that I want.

Or, you could buy it online and get it with the numeric keypad for the exact same price. You haven't been paying attention, have you?