Apple 2nd Quarter Financial Results Stream [Archive]

SiliconAddict

Apr 2, 2004, 11:09 AM

yes its been said but my question is does Apple want 1 out of 100 new machines to be a Mac or do they want .5%? when will it be low enough? What they are doing now with product line is all wrong.

It doesn't matter anymore. Clones will always be able to sell more systems then one vendor. Apple is fighting against an industry and losing. Market share numbers will continually be a downward spiral for Apple. As it stands they can't meet demand for many of their products while Dell, Gateway, Toshiba, Compaq/HP, Sony, Alienware, et all continue to crank out tons of these systems. Short of Apple picking one or two OEMs to create a low end cheap clone that covers the low end of the market that Apple can crank out cheaply and efficiently Apple may be in the sub single digit market share within a couple years.
This IMHO is bad. Actual numbers mean exactly jack squat to developers who are looking for the largest market to develop their wares. The Windows vs. OS X platform is different enough to make moving a piece of software from one platform to another a PITA. Why develop on the Mac when you can on the PC and get a higher chance of a potential sale then on the Mac platform? I've preached this over and over again and I firmly believe that Market Share does matter.

That being said. Apple isn't dead yet. Just this morning I convinced my 18th person to consider a iMac for their kid. He went to the Mac store yesterday and came back with a few questions. I answer as best I could but there are limits to my knowledge on the Mac since I don't own one yet. Hehe. I can send them to Apple but convincing the occasional user isn't going to save Apple's market share in the long run. They need something BIG to happen. Check that big and CHEAP to happen.

7on

Apr 2, 2004, 11:34 AM

It's going to be one of two things:

Small marketshare and good profits

or..

Good marketshare and low profits

I don't see how they could be both.

nmk

Apr 2, 2004, 11:39 AM

I don't really want to get into the "Apple is dying" thing, but I really do think this will be an increadibly pathetic quarter for them. And you know what, they deserve it. Any company that is this neglegent should suffer.

bathysphere

Apr 2, 2004, 11:55 AM

It's going to be one of two things:

Small marketshare and good profits

or..

Good marketshare and low profits

I don't see how they could be both.

how about small marketshare and low profits? which is what will probably happen. i mean, they've done less work than me this semester.

Mantat

Apr 2, 2004, 11:58 AM

Second quarter are always bad, so investor expect that and its already taken into account in the current value of the stock. So selling/buying back the stock wont give you much profit compared to the risk of a bad surprise.

My guess is that most of the calls are going to talk about apple not producing enough iPod mini and why the ITMS is not out in other countries. These are two things under apple control and are directly linked to Steve Jobs lack of business sense.

The low sales of power mac and server will be fixed next quarter so no need to worry there. There might be some frustration about a lack of G5 upgrade tho.

Well, we will see...

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 12:27 PM

Wonder if the big ol' dip in harware sales will light a fire under Apple to get their act together.. But then, has it ever? :rolleyes:

macshark

Apr 2, 2004, 12:29 PM

Second quarter are always bad, so investor expect that and its already taken into account in the current value of the stock. So selling/buying back the stock wont give you much profit compared to the risk of a bad surprise.

Normally, I would agree with you, but the last few weeks, Apple stock has seen pretty strong upward movement, sometimes even on down days of the market. So there is some type of expectation built in on the buy side. If the results are not that great (i.e. lower revenue than previous quarter, net loss, etc.) we could see a 15-20% knee-jerk reaction the day after the call.

My guess is that most of the calls are going to talk about apple not producing enough iPod mini and why the ITMS is not out in other countries. These are two things under apple control and are directly linked to Steve Jobs lack of business sense.

The low sales of power mac and server will be fixed next quarter so no need to worry there. There might be some frustration about a lack of G5 upgrade tho.

Well, we will see...

Superdrive

Apr 2, 2004, 12:31 PM

What they are doing now with product line is all wrong.

Why aren't you running Apple then? You had better give them a call next week!

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 12:31 PM

how about small marketshare and low profits? which is what will probably happen. i mean, they've done less work than me this semester.

:D That's concise, to the point, true, and hilarious.

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 12:32 PM

Me, DHM, and a pack of rabid monkeys could do a better job at Apple.. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Why aren't you running Apple then? You had better give them a call next week!

legion

Apr 2, 2004, 12:41 PM

Well, with the new accounting practices issued about expensing stock options, Apple should show quite a loss (as they would have for the past few quarters at least!) This will be a bit of a reality check for those who believe that Apple's profitablity is secure.

On a sidenote, Microsoft was one of the first tech companies to expense stock options. I believe they started doing so about 2 quarters ago when their earnings looked a little anaemic (well, anaemic for Microsoft would still be a great quarter for pretty much any other company.) Apple stockholders took a vote on this issue quite awhile ago, but Jobs and Co (the board) swayed stockholders not to adopt these new (some would say "more realistic") accounting practices. It was only a matter of time before it caught up with everyone in the wake of all the SEC issues in the past few years. It will also level the playing field between those forward-thinking companies and those hanging on to the past (plus it'll be a lot easier for stockholders to evaluate the standings of companies when there aren't two different ways of doing things.)

All I can say for now is that be prepared to see a lot of red in Apple's ledger books for awhile.

invaLPsion

Apr 2, 2004, 12:43 PM

How are you going to spin we have now reached the 1% market share that all the bmw lovers say is Great for Apple. you know the ones who want to be the only one with a Mac. This will be a very very bad qtr for Apple. taking to long to boot out G4 and taking to long to get everyone on a current chip such as G5. Its Apples Fault for taking way to long to get off the turtle they have been riding known as G4. The Desktop line is a mess. Apple should focus on computers that the public wants not computers that Jobs & Ives want to build. Powermac,Imac,Emac everyone of these are missing the market. Unless you want that 1% :rolleyes:

I agree partly. In terms of Apple as a computer company it has been a horrible quarter. But, the over-hyped line of iPods will still woo investors into buying Apple stock.

But, because there have been no new computer releases, it has been a simply horrible quarter in my opinion.

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 12:45 PM

There was an argument a while back, and it was a porr and incorrect one, that Apple would always be around in some form otherwise M$ would be a true 100% monopoly.. So, popular thought was that Gates, or some such entity, would keep Apple afloat to keep the justice department at bay.

Well, now 2 things have happened:

1. We've seen that the justice department doesn't care that M$ has a monopoly (only the EU seems to), so M$ can so whatever they please.

2. Linux. Linux has overtaken Apple for OS markethare, and will probably soon do so on install base. So, it can be said that Linux is the new Apple of sorts. Accept, that Linux is widely accepted, cheap, stable, open, and actually worries M$, unlike Apple who no one, save us here on these boards, thinks is viable anymore.

With Linux, Apple isn't needed from the market's perspective, and Steve hasn't woken up to that yet. So, he'll charge double, not supply, and it's spiraling. Unless he's planning on spinning off the music section of Apple and letting the computer harware biz die, then he's got to do something.

How are you going to spin we have now reached the 1% market share that all the bmw lovers say is Great for Apple. you know the ones who want to be the only one with a Mac. This will be a very very bad qtr for Apple. taking to long to boot out G4 and taking to long to get everyone on a current chip such as G5. Its Apples Fault for taking way to long to get off the turtle they have been riding known as G4. The Desktop line is a mess. Apple should focus on computers that the public wants not computers that Jobs & Ives want to build. Powermac,Imac,Emac everyone of these are missing the market. Unless you want that 1% :rolleyes:

nagromme

Apr 2, 2004, 12:55 PM

My guess is that most of the calls are going to talk about apple not producing enough iPod mini and why the ITMS is not out in other countries. These are two things under apple control and are directly linked to Steve Jobs lack of business sense.

1. iPod Mini production is limited by the number of 1" hard drives being made by the only supplier who has them: Hitachi. This is not Apple's bad business sense.

2. Non-US iTunes store is limited by the red tape of other countries' laws and lawyers and the labels in those countries. That is why nobody ELSE has created a uniform internaltional music store either. Just something in certain markets. Apple is going for doing it right.

nagromme

Apr 2, 2004, 01:04 PM

unlike Apple who no one, save us here on these boards, thinks is viable anymore.

Amusing trolling there.

As for Linux... it has it's place and it's a BIG place and that's all good. But it is in NO way a replacement for Mac OS X. The percentage of people who would be served as well by Linux as by OS X is pretty small. And that awareness is increasing.

The idea that Linux is "as good as" OS X is more amusing trolling.

a17inchFuture

Apr 2, 2004, 01:10 PM

Don't you need to release products to have financial results??

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 01:13 PM

I actually think Linux is better than OSX, but that's the Slashdotter in me. :-)

OSX is the GUI on UNIX/BSD.. the GUI works for the newbs, and for those of us who are technical, the command line is best. Apple wants into corporate, college,science, so those folks can be served very well, and arguable better on some things, with Linux, and better on some things with OSX.

Also take into account that Linux is only roughly 10 years old, and hasn't reached anything close to maturity.. That being said, it's amazing that it's as, well, amazing as it is with only being picked up by the "corporate world" in the past couple years.

When it comes to maturity, just think of it's numbers compared to Apple.. it'll be many, many times over. Just slap a GUI on it, which IBM is doing, and you've got yourself a desktop OS ready to go. How does that not serve OSX users needs?

It's not trolling really, I love OSX, and I'm using it right now, and will continue to do so, I'm just saying that Linux is gaining momentum, and Apple's engine's sputting out. Can that be fixed? Absoultely!! But not the way they're going about it now.

As for Linux... it has it's place and it's a BIG place and that's all good. But it is in NO way a replacement for Mac OS X. The percentage of people who would be served as well by Linux as by OS X is pretty small. And that awareness is increasing.

The idea that Linux is "as good as" OS X is more amusing trolling.

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 01:14 PM

:D Take that sense of humor over to Slashdot (http://www.slashdot.org)..
witty, on the nose comments need not apply here ;-)

Don't you need to release products to have financial results??

johnpg

Apr 2, 2004, 01:28 PM

Just slap a GUI on it, which IBM is doing, and you've got yourself a desktop OS ready to go. How does that not serve OSX users needs? That's completely absurd. See http://daringfireball.net/ for a reality check.

Having said that, I always thought that it would have been interesting had Apple built OS X on top of the Linux kernel and userland base. If they had (and I'm not saying it would or wouldn't have been better, I'm just speculating) we'd have by FAR the best Linux distro in the world. There are lots of places your mind can take you with that fantasy. But unfortunately or not, it's just that, fantasy.

John

rog

Apr 2, 2004, 01:31 PM

Let's see, few new products, and those that were new never shipped in volume or in the volume needed to meet demand. The mini has an incredibly small profit margins and probably ate somewhat into sales of higher end and higher profit margin iPods. Millions of songs were given away for free and millions more were spent to promote two things that most consumers couldn't get for most of the quarter, the mini and the Pepsi bottles. Expect the entire line of computers to be down because people were waiting for updates that never came. The entire mac line is long overdue for updates. The newest model, the iBook is now 5.5 months old and it's a pathetically glacially slow performer. The G5 is nearly 10 months from announcement and 8 months from shipping.

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 01:36 PM

Listen, I know Linux isn't what OSX is.. I get it, but for the average person, for e-mail, web surfing, listening to music, etc., Linux is ready. For enterprise computing, Linux is ready. For CGI, Linux is ready. For ipoding, there's a bit to go ;-).

Did I not articulate well? I'm just saying the Linux is being distributed more widely now that Apple, and will be installed further than Apple soon. I don't like it, I don't want it, but it's coming. And when Linux hits the desktop for real, then what's Apple to do? I'm not picking a fight, I'm genuinely concerned here.

There's been a wacky rumor around Linux boards, and /., that Linux will be integrated into 10.4,10.5... how they know is beyond me, but hey, Apple could do Linux, and wouldn't that be great?? You'd have not only the most advanced OS in the world, but it'd be ready to rock on all the PPC hardware that IBM's cranking out :-) We'd have the same vulnerabilities as Linux users do, so that'd be icky.. Dare to dream though.

That's completely absurd. See http://daringfireball.net/ for a reality check.

Having said that, I always thought that it would have been interesting had Apple built OS X on top of the Linux kernel and userland base. If they had (and I'm not saying it would or wouldn't have been better, I'm just speculating) we'd have by FAR the best Linux distro in the world. There are lots of places your mind can take you with that fantasy. But unfortunately or not, it's just that, fantasy.

John

a17inchFuture

Apr 2, 2004, 01:39 PM

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 01:39 PM

Don't forget The New Accounting Rules (http://www.macminute.com/2004/04/02/accounting)

Maybe they should release new hadware on the same day to distract from all the bad news :rolleyes:

Let's see, few new products, and those that were new never shipped in volume or in the volume needed to meet demand. The mini has an incredibly small profit margins and probably ate somewhat into sales of higher end and higher profit margin iPods. Millions of songs were given away for free and millions more were spent to promote two things that most consumers couldn't get for most of the quarter, the mini and the Pepsi bottles. Expect the entire line of computers to be down because people were waiting for updates that never came. The entire mac line is long overdue for updates. The newest model, the iBook is now 5.5 months old and it's a pathetically glacially slow performer. The G5 is nearly 10 months from announcement and 8 months from shipping.

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 01:41 PM

Power refers to the Price not the performance ;-)

Yeah, and the powerbooks, which are stilll WAY BEHIND the G5's, which are way behind. Ah, gotta love the theoretical nature of their power line . . .

[Note: the BBB's recent decision]

johnpg

Apr 2, 2004, 01:45 PM

Did I not articulate well? I'm just saying the Linux is being distributed more widely now that Apple, and will be installed further than Apple soon. I don't like it, I don't want it, but it's coming. And when Linux hits the desktop for real, then what's Apple to do? I'm not picking a fight, I'm genuinely concerned here. Yeah I probably should have been more specific. I didn't really disagree with most of what you said. It was just the "slap a GUI on it and it's ready" part that I thought was really wrong. Linux totally and completely sucks as a desktop OS. I say that and at the same time say I LOVE Linux. But it's not ready and I'm finding it hard to imagine how it ever will be unless there really is some serious consolidation in the GUI and real guidelines that people follow. Who knows when/if that will happen?

There's been a wacky rumor around Linux boards, and /., that Linux will be integrated into 10.4,10.5... how they know is beyond me, but hey, Apple could do Linux, and wouldn't that be great?? You'd have not only the most advanced OS in the world, but it'd be ready to rock on all the PPC hardware that IBM's cranking out :-) We'd have the same vulnerabilities as Linux users do, so that'd be icky.. Dare to dream though.

I doubt that will happen though. What's worse, even if it did, unless Apple completely open sourced the full GUI and let other distributions (even x86) use it they wouldn't really increase their adoption. Even if OS X ran commercial Linux binaries (which it wouldn't since most would be x86) they'd still all use X11 and not Aqua. So the situation wouldn't be much different than it is now. It's easy to recompile for OS X and X11. They'd have to completely open Aqua to make it work right and be accepted. But if they did that they'd be dead. Nobody would buy Macs anymore. It's a no win situation unfortunately.

John

aftk2

Apr 2, 2004, 01:48 PM

OSX is the GUI on UNIX/BSD.. the GUI works for the newbs, and for those of us who are technical, the command line is best.

First off, the command line, for certain tasks, is faster. That does not necessarily make it better. I mean, the last time I did some graphic design, page layout, web application programming, or video editing the GUI was pretty important. I bet I can manipulate programs and documents faster in Expose than you can using 'fg'.

Also take into account that Linux is only roughly 10 years old, and hasn't reached anything close to maturity.. That being said, it's amazing that it's as, well, amazing as it is with only being picked up by the "corporate world" in the past couple years.

If you think that Linux is anything but an extension of UNIX, which has been around for ages, you're deluding yourself. (Yes, OS X is too).

When it comes to maturity, just think of it's numbers compared to Apple.. it'll be many, many times over. Just slap a GUI on it, which IBM is doing, and you've got yourself a desktop OS ready to go. How does that not serve OSX users needs?

"Slap a GUI on it?" Ugh. Maybe you should read this (http://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability). You know what? There's another OS that's pretty damn stable, and has a better UI than Linux - it's called Windows XP. And guess what...? It doesn't serve OS X users' needs.

It's not trolling really, I love OSX, and I'm using it right now, and will continue to do so, I'm just saying that Linux is gaining momentum, and Apple's engine's sputting out.

Could you please explain to me how Apple's engine is "sputting out?" No, really - I think their improvements to OS X in the past two years have been amazing. Linux is gaining momentum because it's free, runs on shoddy PC hardware that people have sitting in their den, closet, or office, has better security than Windows, and has an active developer community.

aftk2

Apr 2, 2004, 01:52 PM

That's completely absurd. See http://daringfireball.net/ for a reality check.Hah nice - I swear I didn't read your post before I linked to the same article, for exactly the same quote.

Having said that, I always thought that it would have been interesting had Apple built OS X on top of the Linux kernel and userland base. If they had (and I'm not saying it would or wouldn't have been better, I'm just speculating) we'd have by FAR the best Linux distro in the world.Instead we'll have to settle for the best operating system in the world. ;)

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 01:55 PM

Well, IBM (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14773) has really taken to Linux on the Desktop in a big way, for better or for worse. And Sun (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/31/1734228&mode=thread&tid=102&tid=126&tid=163&tid=185&tid=187&tid=190) has begun their push as well, but yes, I agree, there needs to be a standard, and I think there will be, just because there's so much money to be made from it.

I use RedHat (http://www.redhat.com/) on x86 and YDL (http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/) on PPC. Once a big company, IBM (http://www-1.ibm.com/linux/news/lotuslinux.shtml) , throws their weight behind a major distro, then the public will feel better about adopting it on the desktop. In my argument, that's when Apple is truly, truly in trouble

Yeah I probably should have been more specific. I didn't really disagree with most of what you said. It was just the "slap a GUI on it and it's ready" part that I thought was really wrong. Linux totally and completely sucks as a desktop OS. I say that and at the same time say I LOVE Linux. But it's not ready and I'm finding it hard to imagine how it ever will be unless there really is some serious consolidation in the GUI and real guidelines that people follow. Who knows when/if that will happen?
John

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 01:59 PM

But that's kinda my point.

Linux is gaining momentum because it's free, runs on shoddy PC hardware that people have sitting in their den, closet, or office, has better security than Windows, and has an active developer community.

aftk2

Apr 2, 2004, 02:01 PM

Expect the entire line of computers to be down because people were waiting for updates that never came. The entire mac line is long overdue for updates.You know, I don't exactly know what the financial conference call will say. Sales may be down. But you know what? I really doubt this would be the reason why. While PowerMac G4s were languishing, sales were down because of slow performance, and the fact that something was on the horizon. But if a business or a professional needs a G5 right now, they'll buy a G5.

Take note: I'm excluding everyone on MacRumors from that above statement. You know why? Because we're on MacRumors. We obviously follow this kind of stuff, and even get some enjoyment out of it. But along with that comes the tendency to think that even 1% of people out there think along those same lines. That's not the case. I went to the Apple Store this weekend, and it was full of people - and not just on the iPods. (And you know what...? Some of them were even looking at the "glacially slow" iBook.)

God, I'm posting a lot today. Maybe it's an attempt to rid myself of the "macrumors newbie" scarlet letter. ;)

gekko513

Apr 2, 2004, 02:03 PM

how about small marketshare and low profits? which is what will probably happen. i mean, they've done less work than me this semester.
Depends on how much work they put into that Apple Bluetooth mouse firmware upgrade ;)

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 02:05 PM

From your lips to Buddah's ears :-)

if a business or a professional needs a G5 right now, they'll buy a G5.
I went to the Apple Store this weekend, and it was full of people - and not just on the iPods. (And you know what...? Some of them were even looking at the "glacially slow" iBook.)

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 02:06 PM

That one firmware update took 50K developers, 35 years to test, and made Apple 41 Billion dollars. Don't knock that BT update, it's the only thing we've had to go on this year! ;-)

Depends on how much work they put into that Apple Bluetooth mouse firmware upgrade ;)

aftk2

Apr 2, 2004, 02:13 PM

But that's kinda my point.

But if that's the case, then that means Linux won't eat into Mac market share. It'll eat into Windows. Why would someone seriously considering a Mac want to go with something with sketchy support and a lousy UI? (I'm being a bit melodramatic...I tried knoppix on my laptop and was actually impressed.) By "seriously considering" I mean "someone who has the money." Yeah, they might just decide..."you know...why pay all this money when I could pay a whole lot less?" But if that's the case...why wouldn't they go to Windows?

The problem, here, then, is that people are using marketshare in a huge, stupefying computer market to gauge the health of the Macintosh. This market includes not only personal and business desktop and laptop computers, but also cheap knockoffs going to China, pre-loaded with Linux to make way for pirated copies of XP. It includes the "adding machines" of the 21st century (apologies to Jon Gruber). The problem is that people are pitting Apple against the entire x86 industry, rather than against individual computer makers. The problem, then, comes down to whether you think Apple is a hardware company, or a software company.

I realize that, if Apple didn't care about marketshare, they'd become an insular and ultimately dead company (after all, if your marketshare gets too low, outside software vendors will stop making products for you.) But that hasn't happened yet.

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 02:22 PM

Oh, I'm fully aware, as I think we all are, that "marketshare" isn't the end all be all in the least.. My thing was that Apple's got to compete, or if not compete, at least deliver.. A Linux desktop can be had for $199 at walmart.. granted it's crap, but it works.. compare that to the money you'll spend on an Apple, and the average person makes their decision (and the clearly have since Apple's Hardware sales are going down, down, down) The actual sales numbers are a far better indicator that market share, and those numbers aren't so great, you've got to give me that much..

I'm saying that you can't charge double, triple for machines, then not get them to people when they order them (huge delays)..it's just not going to make you last, and your sales will suffer, as they clearly have..

Linux is taking up that enterprise/business market that Apple had, and wants back.. they're not getting in, Linux is.. precisely because it can run on everything (not just the latest, greatest from Apple, which you can't get on time), it's scalable, open, etc.

I'm not arguing that Apple's OS isn't the best, or that they make awful machines, I'm arguing that what they're doing business-wise is bad, and is going in an awful direction (see DHM's initial post)..

But if that's the case, then that means Linux won't eat into Mac market share. It'll eat into Windows. Why would someone seriously considering a Mac want to go with something with sketchy support and a lousy UI? (I'm being a bit melodramatic...I tried knoppix on my laptop and was actually impressed.) By "seriously considering" I mean "someone who has the money."

The problem, here, then, is that people are using marketshare in a huge, stupefying computer market to gauge the health of the Macintosh. This market includes not only personal and business desktop and laptop computers, but also cheap knockoffs going to China, pre-loaded with Linux to make way for pirated copies of XP. It includes the "adding machines" of the 21st century (apologies to Jon Gruber). The problem is that people are pitting Apple against the entire x86 industry, rather than against individual computer makers. The problem, then, comes down to whether you think Apple is a hardware company, or a software company.

I realize that, if Apple didn't care about marketshare, they'd become an insular and ultimately dead company (after all, if your marketshare gets too low, outside software vendors will stop making products for you.) But that hasn't happened yet.

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 02:25 PM

Many, many software vndors have stopped making software for the Mac, precisely because Apple's userbase is small and getting smaller..That's a problem that Steve and Apple haven't addressed, and have made far worse with the decisions they've made..

Again, I'm not picking a fight, I'm just looking for realism so that maybe a singular voice can be made to wake them up, if that's possible.

I don't want to have the userbase go down to 0.0005% with the remains saying that Apple can do no wrong and it's everyone else's fault. It's mostly their fault, and they need to do something about it.

I realize that, if Apple didn't care about marketshare, they'd become an insular and ultimately dead company (after all, if your marketshare gets too low, outside software vendors will stop making products for you.) But that hasn't happened yet.

Nicky G

Apr 2, 2004, 02:35 PM

Lotta trolls out today -- thought I was in Middle Earth for a moment.

Don't you kids have some Social Studies or Algebra homework to be be doing, or something? :rolleyes:

Wash!!

Apr 2, 2004, 02:38 PM

:eek: And Apple is going out of business all their inventory is to be put on ebay to se if they scrape a few bucks for them!!!! :eek:

People please all this complaining about Apple's market share it just been done to death give it a rest.....

aftk2

Apr 2, 2004, 02:50 PM

Oh, I'm fully aware, as I think we all are, that "marketshare" isn't the end all be all in the least..Yes, I know...but it's the first thing that comes up in debates like these. For example:

How are you going to spin we have now reached the 1% market share that all the bmw lovers say is Great for Apple.Here's a tip, DHM. When you predict something in a previous post, and then you say it, like its fact, in a later post, that doesn't make you into Kreskin.

Anyway, back to your post...

Everything you mention after your quote above boils down to desiring Apple to release just one low-cost, reasonably high powered computer. Like the iMac (the original iMac, not the current one.) It was low cost, but powerful (for its time...266Mhz G3 processor and all that.) And you know what...? I agree! Apple's consumer end is much less appealing than its high end (for all the kvetching about benchmarks and Opterons and lack of updates, the G5s are sweet machines that every pro user should look at.). The consumer end is at the same point that the PowerMacs were at, right before last year's WWDC.

It'll probably happen, too. For example, with the iPod mini, Apple is sacrificing some profit to get into a market it hasn't been able to enter. Now, the fact that they're leveraging their very successful current mp3 player to do so might make such a move more feasible than doing the same thing with a computer. But we'll see.

(aah...n00b no more...)

Beck446

Apr 2, 2004, 02:59 PM

This is the slowest quarter in recent memory. I've almost stopped reading MacRumors. The horror!

Numbers can't be that good.

nagromme

Apr 2, 2004, 03:11 PM

Many, many software vndors have stopped making software for the Mac, precisely because Apple's userbase is small and getting smaller..

That's hard to take seriously. Where do you get that from? The only software apps I'm aware of being cancelled for Mac are those that couldn't make it because a BETTER alternative exists. Meanwhile developers are flocking TO OS X every day, many of them joining us from the land of UNIX. I see evidence of Mac development increasing--what makes you say otherwise? And to the extreme of "many, many" no less?

Obviously software companies for ANY OS go under all the time and new ones pop up. So I guess you could say "many, many vendors have stopped making software for Windows" too?

As for Apple's userbase getting smaller.... the only way that could happen is if MORE people were throwing away (or storing permanently) Macs than buying them. (Giving a Mac away doesn't change the user base.) So that's pretty absurd.

Mac's user base is growing rapidly--just not AS rapidly, right now, as Windows, especially if hardware sales is what you count. (But hardware sales doesn't take into account the Macs last longer.) The market Mac developers can sell to is growing.

Sadly, the market for Mac viruses continues to do poorly ;)

I'll stop feeding the troll now.

TimDaddy

Apr 2, 2004, 03:31 PM

Again, I'm not picking a fight, I'm just looking for realism so that maybe a singular voice can be made to wake them up, if that's possible.

I'm sorry, this is WAY off topic, but kind of funny. I had just paid my cell phone bill before getting online. I thought you had mis-spelled singular! It's supposed to be Cingular!!! :p

thatwendigo

Apr 2, 2004, 03:59 PM

Ho hum... DHM and a17inch are out in force today, I see. Others have dealt with it appropriately, so that really only leaves me one thing to say.

Go take a look at the thread I started in Apple/Hardware, where the miscellaneous Apple related discussions take place. I brought over an article that analyzes installed base and market share, breaking them down so that people can understand the numbers a bit better.

An example, though:

Say that there are only two computers in the world, and the users go two different ways. One buys a mac, the other a PC. Two years later, the PC user updates to a new version of Windows. From the standpoint of market share, Windows now has a 75% lock, but in installed base, they're still 50%.

Market share is new sales, not anything else, and it doesn't take into account buying patterns that go for more than one or two years. Mac users tend to buy every 3-4.5 years, and so we don't show up very well on the market share figures, but the best numbers the guy who wrote the article came up with show that the mac is actually the number one single OEM installed base.

Also, based on OS X adoption, as of late 2002, we were at 6.1% of OS sales, not 2 or 3%. Microsoft had sold 46 million copies of XP, and only 3 million copies of OS X had been sold. We're now at, what, 8 or 10 million copies of OS X in two more years? That's sales that are steady year over year, even if they're not growing as fast as the market is.

BornAgainMac

Apr 2, 2004, 04:15 PM

Perhaps on April 13th (Tue), new Apple products will be announced or shipping. Then they will have something to talk about for the stockholder meeting that is forward looking. It will be a boring conference call without any new product announcements.

It's funny. Microsoft announced products years in advance. Like the next version SQL Server, Longhorn, Virtual PC for G5s and Office 2004. I can plan what products my future grandchildren will buy from Microsoft when they go to college.

That is why there isn't any www.microsoftrumors.com domain in use today.

gekko513

Apr 2, 2004, 04:18 PM

One buys a mac, the other a PC. Two years later, the PC user updates to a new version of Windows. From the standpoint of market share, Windows now has a 75% lock, but in installed base, they're still 50%.
Did the Windows user buy both Windows ME and Windows 2000 or did you mean 67%?? :cool:

fluidinclusion

Apr 2, 2004, 05:10 PM

I might want to sell my stock tuesday... then buy thursday.... what da ya think?

Why would you do that? It depends upon when you purchased and at what price. Do you have a profit in AAPL? If you're one of the long-term shareholders who does NOT have a profit, then you SHOULD NOT sell and buy back two days later becuase you can't use the loss on your Schedule D form unless you wait at least 30 days.

Furthermore, you may want to look into the length of time you've held (and will hold) your AAPL shares to determine the tax rate (i.e. capital gains or not) if you sell for a profit.

If this isn't vaguely familiar to you, then you should get some advice on investing before trading your own stock. These are CRITICAL items that can cost you thousands of dollars!

fluidinclusion

Apr 2, 2004, 05:14 PM

I'd sell it short if I had stock in Apple... but don't blame me if you loose your bankroll.

If you had AAPL, and then sold it, you wouldn't be selling short. Do you know what "short" means? I sincerely believe that guy doesn't even have a margin account anyway.

Shorting is BAD news. You will get burned eventually. There is only so far down a stock can go (0). When long, you know you're maximum possible loss. When short, the highest a stock can go is ------>>>>>>>? Your losses are NOT finite or known.

Wonder Boy

Apr 2, 2004, 05:38 PM

By "economic" I'm sure you mean Apple's own fiscal and operational effectiveness? There's a big difference.

you're right, i do mean apple's own fiscal and operational effectiveness.

Dont Hurt Me

Apr 2, 2004, 05:48 PM

Nicky G

Apr 2, 2004, 06:16 PM

Well look at it this way :cool: after this qtrs numbers it will be hard to go lower. :eek: How can you guys spin these new machines sold numbers? 1 out of 100? and you guys can spin this with a straight face? :o

What is this, The No Spin Zone with Bill O'Reilly? Who here really knows how many machines were sold this past quarter? Do you? Really? Have any idea at all? Or just a hunch? What is it?

What a bunch of armchair experts, sheesh! My bet -- 90% of the armchair analysts who could do it better than Apple are in their early 20's or less, and actually have no business experience at all. :rolleyes:

nightcap965

Apr 2, 2004, 06:19 PM

Just where do you get the idea that there can only be two - Microsoft and some token minority? I will grant you that under the current interregnum here in the U.S., rapacious predatory monopolists seem to be able to operate with near-impunity, but you've missed Apple's greatest asset: They innovate. Linux (and don't get me wrong - I love Linux, been using it for over 10 years) has many advantages, but it is imitative, not innovative. Microsoft acquires, they don't innovate.

The truth is that Microsoft et alia need Apple. Apple is the computer industry's best R&D lab. Sometimes their innovations work, sometimes they go down in flames, but they always advance the state of the art.

You need to take a longer view.

There was an argument a while back, and it was a porr and incorrect one, that Apple would always be around in some form otherwise M$ would be a true 100% monopoly.. So, popular thought was that Gates, or some such entity, would keep Apple afloat to keep the justice department at bay.

Well, now 2 things have happened:

1. We've seen that the justice department doesn't care that M$ has a monopoly (only the EU seems to), so M$ can so whatever they please.

2. Linux. Linux has overtaken Apple for OS markethare, and will probably soon do so on install base. So, it can be said that Linux is the new Apple of sorts. Accept, that Linux is widely accepted, cheap, stable, open, and actually worries M$, unlike Apple who no one, save us here on these boards, thinks is viable anymore.

With Linux, Apple isn't needed from the market's perspective, and Steve hasn't woken up to that yet. So, he'll charge double, not supply, and it's spiraling. Unless he's planning on spinning off the music section of Apple and letting the computer harware biz die, then he's got to do something.

Some_Big_Spoon

Apr 2, 2004, 06:20 PM

We'll find out in 12 days, and I'll bet you $20 that DHM is pretty darn close in his estimate.

What is this, The No Spin Zone with Bill O'Reilly? Who here really knows how many machines were sold this past quarter? Do you? Really? Have any idea at all? Or just a hunch? What is it?

What a bunch of armchair experts, sheesh! My bet -- 90% of the armchair analysts who could do it better than Apple are in their early 20's or less, and actually have no business experience at all. :rolleyes:

rdowns

Apr 2, 2004, 07:56 PM

I'll add my few thousand dollars here. I think it's time I sold enough of my Apple stock to lock in my profits. Since I bought most of it in the 15-17 range, I think I'll sell 400 shares and keep 250. I think their 2Q results will be dismal.

I do expect Apple to grow when they finally get off their a$$es and bring their line into the 21st century. I'm just not willing to bet all the money they've made me.

MrSugar

Apr 2, 2004, 09:50 PM

Well look at it this way :cool: after this qtrs numbers it will be hard to go lower. :eek: How can you guys spin these new machines sold numbers? 1 out of 100? and you guys can spin this with a straight face? :o

Is anyone else sick of these posts from DHM? Every time I look I just see you talking trash about apple, you never offer any valid points except flaming about how Apple is under powered and overpriced. I seriously wish you would leave this site or start making legitimate posts, I am so sick of reading the current trash. I know what I am saying is mean, but I don't care anymore, I am so sick of this. Even when you do make good points you put such a negative spin on it that it's just complaining, blah.

Edit: typo

Coca-Cola

Apr 2, 2004, 09:53 PM

I am willing to bet that apple is getting purchases from new sources. I think government contracts are way up. Scientific purchasing is going to be up. A very strange source of new purchases will be switchers. People who would normaly consider HP's or gateways. I see them picking up the consumer line numbers. Retail stores are going to have great numbers.
The bad news :( is that I can see graphic studio purchases going down. Waiting for new G5's or getting Wintels(yikes!) After getting burned by those slow g4 Powermacs. Newspaper publisher purchases will be down as well. It is going to be a very unusual quarter.

aswitcher

Apr 2, 2004, 09:55 PM

Is anyone else sick of these posts from DHM? Every time I look I just see you talking trash about apple, you never offer any valid points except flaming about how Apple has under powered and overpriced. I seriously wish you would leave this site or start making legitimate posts, I am so sick of reading the current trash. I know what I am saying is mean, but I don't care anymore, I am so sick of this.

Well if DHM sees little future for Apple and a rapidly slidding market share then I guess natural attrition should see him switch away from Apple and leave us in peace sometime soon ;) :p

thatwendigo

Apr 2, 2004, 11:15 PM

Is anyone else sick of these posts from DHM? Every time I look I just see you talking trash about apple, you never offer any valid points except flaming about how Apple is under powered and overpriced. I seriously wish you would leave this site or start making legitimate posts, I am so sick of reading the current trash. I know what I am saying is mean, but I don't care anymore, I am so sick of this. Even when you do make good points you put such a negative spin on it that it's just complaining, blah.

In a word: Yes.

Many of us are tired of his constant, poorly typed, poorly reasoned, and largely speculative posts. It doesn't take that much effort to cite your information and provide links to it, or to posts where you've already done so. It takes even less to run your text through a rudimentary spellcheck and be rid of the worst of the mistakes and make it easier for people to understand what you're saying. Above and beyond that, punctuation is somewhat necessary to the communication of points, especially when making more than one in a particular sentence.

DHM and his ilk think they could run Apple better, but what they keep forgetting to add into their analysis is that the company is at one of its strongest positions in years. OS X is ascendant in sales and converts, there's cash in the bank and no debt, and we have a chip that's got legs, rather than the embedded-oriented G4... Yes, it's taking time to filter down, but that's going to be true regardless of what was done to fix the situation.

Well if DHM sees little future for Apple and a rapidly slidding market share then I guess natural attrition should see him switch away from Apple and leave us in peace sometime soon ;) :p

Actually, he's said that he's buying an Alienware Aurora, because AMD is the saviour of all things computing. It's obviously a better computer because it runs games faster, and that has nothing to do with DirectX or the other PC competition-blockers. :rolleyes:

My first thought when I was made aware of that thread was that I might finally hear an end of his posts. No such luck. ;)

topicolo

Apr 3, 2004, 01:06 AM

I might want to sell my stock tuesday... then buy thursday.... what da ya think?

Your broker's gonna love you

billyboy

Apr 3, 2004, 02:48 AM

I might want to sell my stock tuesday... then buy thursday.... what da ya think?

If you want to speculate on that sort of basis, I guess you have thousands of shares, a crystal ball and cast iron balls.

If you actually bought AAPL shares because you did your homework and wanted to own a part of a company with a decent financial basis, and pretty good but not spectacular prospects in the next couple or three years, hold onto your shares, keep your peace of mind and tee off the broker vultures.

A good playtime pastime is to set up a mock portfolio and "buy" shares in companies that are likely takeover targets, or for even more spectacular returns, read around and buy up shares in any companies that are going into or going to win litigation with Microsoft - I wish I had really bought and sold some burst.com, sun....

iMeowbot

Apr 3, 2004, 03:13 AM

Many, many software vndors have stopped making software for the Mac, precisely because Apple's userbase is small and getting smaller..That's a problem that Steve and Apple haven't addressed, and have made far worse with the decisions they've made..

On the other hand, other new Mac-only stuff has been showing up too, from newer, typically smaller, vendors.

Percentages aren't everything. The raw numbers of machines out there doesn't exactly suck, and selling software and accessories to a market with less saturation and competition has definite advantages.

Some of the same general ideas are what make Linux an attractive platform for ISVs, but the Mac userbase is still one where customers are willing to pay a bit extra in exchange for relief from dealing with install/configure/usability pain.

I guess I'd be more worried about the market share thing if decent replacements weren't appearing when the entrenched bloatware vendors wandered away.

ggrund

Apr 3, 2004, 05:36 AM

OK.. I've been reading all your posts regarding this "horrible" Q2 for Apple. Now, my question is, how do you all know that this is going to be a horrible quarter for Apple? I know that they haven't updated any of their systems, but could this be because they are selling? I mean, if the G5 is selling well with the current specs, would they not try to delay the next update as long as they can?

nmk

Apr 3, 2004, 10:48 AM

I agree with some of the previous posters. I, myself, am quite dissatisfied with the current state of affiars in Apple. I have made my thoughts known in previous posts. However, I don't see the point in repeatedly beating Apple over the head. If you've decided to go with the wintel platform (DHM), then good for you. You might as well leave this forum and stop bitching. Truth be told, I have also considered switching to Windows but am forced to reconsider everytime I use a windows computer. I would be sad if Apple were to go under. I can only hope that they do get their act together sometime soon. Maybe its time to fire Steve again ;)

nightcap965

Apr 3, 2004, 11:15 AM

Every body's different. Your mileage may vary. Each cat his own rat.

There, now that I've handled the disclaimers, I can put political correctness aside.

It doesn't matter what Apple's second quarter results are any more than it matters what Daimler Chrysler's second quarter results are. My Dodge Caravan will keep running no matter how well they did in the second quarter, and my Macs will keep running for the same reason. Apple is a 28-year-old company with no debt and lots of money in the bank - they don't need to pull rabbits from hats every three months. They can afford to take a longer view.

If you're dissatisfied with Apple's computers and operating system, and you think you'll be happier with Windows, Linux, or AtheOS, go for it and goodonya. If you're dissatisfied with the way Apple is run, here's what you do: Spend $28 and buy a share of AAPL. All you need is one share to get into the Shareholder's meeting. Then cast your vote to throw the bums out.

But let's not have any more nonsense that a single quarter's results - good, bad, or indifferent - matter a rat's patootie to anyone, least of all those of us who use and enjoy Apple's products.

I agree with some of the previous posters. I, myself, am quite dissatisfied with the current state of affiars in Apple. I have made my thoughts known in previous posts. However, I don't see the point in repeatedly beating Apple over the head. If you've decided to go with the wintel platform (DHM), then good for you. You might as well leave this forum and stop bitching. Truth be told, I have also considered switching to Windows but am forced to reconsider everytime I use a windows computer. I would be sad if Apple were to go under. I can only hope that they do get their act together sometime soon. Maybe its time to fire Steve again ;)

kherdin

Apr 3, 2004, 12:19 PM

Ok, to the poster talking about how great Linux is and that it will soon kill OS X, I say this:

You claim the commandline is better than the GUI. Fair enough, I agree that for some things it is. Are you forgetting that Mac OS X has a commandline? This is in no way an advantage of Linux over Mac OS X - both share the feature.

You say that the Linux market share and soon installed base is greater than Mac OS X. This is not whatt he "hard evidence" shows - if you take a look at the Google Zeitgeist (search for link in google :P), you can see that Linux is only at 1% and the Mac has climbed to 4% from 3% in the last month. So again, this is BS.

Next, you claim that Linux being popular is going to murder OS X. Not so! It will actually be benefitial, porting software back and forth between the two is much easier than between the Mac and Windows. In fact, one game developer I've recently seen an interview with (search on OSNews for it), mentioned that it was easier in one case to port a game from Linux (to which it was ported before) than to port that same game from its Mac OS 9 version. It's easier to go from Linux->Mac OS X, than from Classic->Carbon - imagine that! Popularity of Linux will only mean good things for the Mac, my friend, very good things indeed.

And finally, let me remind you that Linux is only a kernel. It is not an OS - Redhat Linux is an OS, Mandrake Linux is an OS, SuSE Linux is an OS, etc. Linux is a kernel. A unix-like kernel, just like what Mac OS X uses (Darwin, a fork of FreeBSD). It would not be that hard to migrate Mac OS X to Linux if there was a need (although it's questionable if there really is one - benchmarks show that Linux 2.6 is only marginally better perfomance-wise than FreeBSD, so the migration would result in a little gain of performance, plus a lot of headaches for the developers - it doesn't seem worthwhile).

AidenShaw

Apr 3, 2004, 04:38 PM

IMHO, the biggest impediment to adoption of Linux is the horrible dependence on the kernel version.

With Windows, driver and other system interfaces are architected so that only major system changes require new drivers. (My old scanner driver was last updated for Windows 2000 - yet that driver runs fine on XP and even on the Longhorm preview that's widely available.)

On Linux, I need to keep the sources for my network and video drivers online. Whenever there's a kernel change (sometimes even as innocent as running the RedHat software update (up2date)) I need to recompile my drivers against the new kernel sources.

Even worse, some software needs hooks that affect the kernel, so that I need to rebuild the kernel occasionally. (The same software on Windows uses architected filter drivers, so no problems as Windows or the software versions change.)

I don't think Linux will be on my grandmother's desktop until this issue is addressed....

elgruga

Apr 3, 2004, 05:30 PM

Its Apples Fault for taking way to long to get off the turtle they have been riding known as G4. The Desktop line is a mess. Apple should focus on computers that the public wants not computers that Jobs & Ives want to build. Powermac,Imac,Emac everyone of these are missing the market. Unless you want that 1% :rolleyes:

YES! I agree 100% with this post.
Apple should get off the design bandwagon for a week or two and build some serious simple boxes.
Yes, I said boxes.

Headless Imac. Small, cheap, with OSX and a few apps. Just a little box, pizza style, whatever.

MOST OF US LOVE THE DESIGN THING, BUT WE ALSO WANT SIMPLE FUNCTIONALITY AS WELL.
Can you hear me, Stevie?

I am appalled to see Adobe dropping Apple products.
Do something, Apple!
Why doesnt Jobs sell some SIMPLE boxes?

XServe is bull***t. ANY computer can be a server - so a headless imac in a box will do the job, right?
We dont all run big corporations.....

Why does Apple have to make such special products? Why the ******* cant we have a few simple, functional products?

Oh man - bring back the clones.

I am working on a G4 powerbook that is almost 2 years old. I would LOVE to buy a cheap G4 or G5 box, running at, say, 1.25 ghz, and do my web work on it. Plug it into my 17" LCD and not have to use the slow-ish PB.

But my choices are that behemoth of a G5 at a price I CANT afford, or an iMac with a screen I already have......and I cant get in there and change the video card etc. etc.

Sure I'd love one, but I dont have that kind of cash.

You have to give people choice, and, as much as I love the iPod, it doesnt build any web pages for me. Its just a little music box. And I already have one.

Please, Apple, get some ordinary product out there - it doesnt mean you have to stop making fancy stuff.
Guess what - you can do both!

elgruga

Apr 3, 2004, 05:36 PM

Have to say there are some damn good posts on here today.

Good to see complaints about Apple that are positive in nature, and as a few people have said, if you wanna look at Windows, go for it.

As one guy said earlier, every time you look at alternatives, you come back to OSX, which is a brilliant OS.

I dont care too much about the financials - hey, I just buy my Apple stuff and get on with life.

As someone said here, Apple are a 28 year old co. in good shape.

But they aint perfect, and we need to acknowledge that.

aftk2

Apr 3, 2004, 09:08 PM

I would LOVE to buy a cheap G4 or G5 box, running at, say, 1.25 ghz, and do my web work on it. Plug it into my 17" LCD and not have to use the slow-ish PB. But my choices are that behemoth of a G5 at a price I CANT afford, or an iMac with a screen I already have......and I cant get in there and change the video card etc. etc.

Voila.
This is literally what you asked for. (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72002/wo/pA4Muh4ukJ1y3pcFKxcFzLEbfYD/1.0.7.1.0.5.25.1.0.21.3.1.1.0?31,13)

It's 1.25 ghz. It's exandable. You can plug your LCD into it. And it's cheaper than the iMac you mentioned in your post (that you didn't want, because you had the LCD).

Now you have three options: you can purchase it; you can refrain from purchasing it, but remain silent; or, you can refrain from purchasing it, and talk about how it's too expensive, the technology's too old, or make some other nebulous argument.

I fear you will choose the latter.

I was going to stop my post there, but I thought it might sound a bit caustic. So instead, I'll offer up some advice: if you want to spend even less money, while sacrificing a little speed and expandibility, get an emac. Hell, if you're adventurous, with the ibook/emac screen spanning hack, you can get yourself a dual monitor workstation (using the LCD that you already have).

nightcap965

Apr 3, 2004, 09:24 PM

I'm pretty familiar with the alternatives. I've been a computer enthusiast since the days of time-sharing Lunar Lander with a 110 baud modem and a teletype, and an IT professional for twenty years. I've used just about every OS: CP/M, DOS, Windows, OS/2, BeOS, NEXTstep, MacOS, a bunch of Unices, and of course, Linux. I love Linux because you can do anything in it, but it does get wearying downloading and compiling and working out the inevitable bugs. Sometimes you just want to get work done without the endless tuning and finagling.

MacOS X Panther is the best end-user experience available. It's stable, attractive, well thought out, and powerful. It's not perfect (I have a little list...), but it's head and shoulders above the competition.

Have to say there are some damn good posts on here today.

Good to see complaints about Apple that are positive in nature, and as a few people have said, if you wanna look at Windows, go for it.

As one guy said earlier, every time you look at alternatives, you come back to OSX, which is a brilliant OS.

I dont care too much about the financials - hey, I just buy my Apple stuff and get on with life.

As someone said here, Apple are a 28 year old co. in good shape.

But they aint perfect, and we need to acknowledge that.

in_my_head

Apr 3, 2004, 09:27 PM

I might want to sell my stock tuesday... then buy thursday.... what da ya think?

For those that are trying to catch intra day moves in AAPL, I wish u luck...Of course u could be a 'true beliver' and just hang on to the stock while it bounces around here in the mid to high 20's before it makes the real move to the high 30's...(+50%).....but then again that takes patience and conviction......if u don't have that and u want to trade, try MSFT.....:-)

thatwendigo

Apr 3, 2004, 10:07 PM

YES! I agree 100% with this post.
Apple should get off the design bandwagon for a week or two and build some serious simple boxes.
Yes, I said boxes.

Riiiight... Apple should build plain boxes because the last time that was done, they were really cleaning up in market sha... Oh, wait. They were getting their butts handed to them by the cloners, who used cheaper parts and crappier materials to sell competing boxes.

TANSTAAFL. You get what you pay for, and I'd rather have a real mac, thanks all the same.

MOST OF US LOVE THE DESIGN THING, BUT WE ALSO WANT SIMPLE FUNCTIONALITY AS WELL.
Can you hear me, Stevie?

I'm rather glad he can't, actually, and that he likely wouldn't listen if he could. Because of the unique economies of scale, Apple can't compete in the lowend market any more aggressively than they already do with the eMac. To drop prices more means dipping into inferior manufacturing, and if you think that the stories we hear about problems are bad now, just wait until you see what a move like that would result in.

I am appalled to see Adobe dropping Apple products.
Do something, Apple!
Why doesnt Jobs sell some SIMPLE boxes?

Because Adobe is only dropping products where Apple has them beaten, hands down, in useability and performance. As for simple boxes... Apple isn't a generic manufacturer. If you want a beige box that will last a year or two, go find yourself another OEM.

[quoute]XServe is bull***t. ANY computer can be a server - so a headless imac in a box will do the job, right?
We dont all run big corporations.....[/quote]

Then you're obviously not the target market for the xServe, and so it's not intended for your consumption. While it's true that any machine can technically function as a server, the demands of a rigorous and continual load, not to mention space constraints on server farms, lend themselves to solutions that are tailored to the task (i.e. the sServe).

Why does Apple have to make such special products? Why the ******* cant we have a few simple, functional products?

Pssst... Here's a simple box you can plug your monitor into. (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72102/wo/f558FoZAcdiK2ZCIeHI5g4Ef8w4/0.0.7.1.0.5.21.1.2.1.2.0.0.1.0) It's even something around the price of an iMac, but without that LCD you don't want.

But my choices are that behemoth of a G5 at a price I CANT afford, or an iMac with a screen I already have......and I cant get in there and change the video card etc. etc.

Sure I'd love one, but I dont have that kind of cash.

Hmmm... G4 iMac with a 15" LCD - $1299 (lower speed RAM and processor, lower graphics card, PATA HD). G5 1.6 Single, no monitor - $1,570 (G5, faster RAM, better graphics card, SATA HD, reduced to combo drive and no modem).

What were you saying, again? You can afford an iMac, but not a G5 that would smoke it?

You have to give people choice, and, as much as I love the iPod, it doesnt build any web pages for me. Its just a little music box. And I already have one.

You have choices, right now. It's not Apple's fault that you're too greedy and iimpatient, nor that you want something that really would cannibalize half of the sales into a market that won't really support them at all. The fact that you want cloning again pretty well establishes that you're interested not in what benefits the mac platform as a whole, but in what benefits you individually.

chubad

Apr 4, 2004, 03:00 AM

Closing in on 100 posts to a statement that Apple is going to stream a financial call. Talk about a dry spell for Apple Rumors!
Oh well. It will be funny to read all of the wailing and gnashing of teeth when the next Powerbook revision comes out and it turns out to be only a speed bumped G-4. ;)

uktroll

Apr 4, 2004, 06:16 AM

The contribution by the UK market should help the corporate bottom line quite a bit.

A quick bit of maths on the USD prices on the Apple Store suggests that the current price level in the UK is somewhere around 20-25% above the price level in the US. This is what the numbers show (based on a USD rate of $1.80 to the GBP)

iBook 12" - USD 1099 - GBP (VAT Incl) 717.40 - Apple UK GBP 849.00
iMac 17" 1.25 - USD 1799 - GBP (VAT Incl) 1174.35 - Apple UK GBP 1449.00

Imagine what Apple UK could do in the market place if they dropped the prices by 20%...

Perhaps we will shortly see the parallel import business take hold in the market again ?

visor

Apr 4, 2004, 07:29 AM

But if that's the case, then that means Linux won't eat into Mac market share. It'll eat into Windows. Why would someone seriously considering a Mac want to go with something with sketchy support and a lousy UI? (I'm being a bit melodramatic...I tried knoppix on my laptop and was actually impressed.) By "seriously considering" I mean "someone who has the money." Yeah, they might just decide..."you know...why pay all this money when I could pay a whole lot less?" But if that's the case...why wouldn't they go to Windows?

Well, I'll try to make a point here:
Of course, as a user, very few people want to go for linux. It still sucks in the UI, and that's all that counts.
For a developer however, Linux is a good choice, because chances are that if he develops server side Applications, he will deploy it to a linux maschine. Now, if your deploy base is 95% Linux, that you have to have one of those, just to check if everything works.
It doesn't make any sene for me to look deeper into Cocoa and Quicktime frameworks, if I can't sell the xserveG5 with the app - and then, most people don't understand why they should buy an Xserve, if they already a have a linux serverfarm, or solaris or whatever. Esp. if the servers are very costly (other platforms are, too - but if you have them already..)

Next problem with the xserve is - availability. Last time I checked they had deliverytimes of 7 weeks. Theres nothing to add to that. I just can't wait almost 2 month for hardware. 1 week is painfull already.

visor

Apr 4, 2004, 07:43 AM

XServe is bull***t. ANY computer can be a server - so a headless imac in a box will do the job, right?
We dont all run big corporations.....

Well, xserve is for companies who need a lot of power in small space. I work in a small company with lots of caluculation work and storage going on. We have a server room - and it's stuffed to it's limits with computers. Now we have a couple of racks with servers takuing up half the room - and a couple of 'boxes' that take up way to much space, while having very little power.
Turns out we'll have to rent new rooms to get our computers stuffed in - now, with that in mind - wouldn't it make sense to go for an xserve rather than, say, a g5 2*2 that uses up 2 to 3 times as much space?

Oh, btw - when I started at the company, the serverroom was mostly empty - only 3,5 years ago.

h'biki

Apr 4, 2004, 09:12 AM

yes its been said but my question is does Apple want 1 out of 100 new machines to be a Mac or do they want .5%? when will it be low enough? What they are doing now with product line is all wrong.

They're making a profit, that's the only thing that matters. (Well, almost)

Who cares if you have a large market share if you lose money hand over fist like Gateway?

neonart

Apr 4, 2004, 09:59 AM

They're making a profit, that's the only thing that matters. (Well, almost)

Who cares if you have a large market share if you lose money hand over fist like Gateway?

Ouch!

VERY MUCH THE TRUTH.

Sped

Apr 4, 2004, 10:37 AM

It will be funny to read all of the wailing and gnashing of teeth when the next Powerbook revision comes out and it turns out to be only a speed bumped G-4. ;)

I wouldn't mind a speed bumped G4. In fact, that is all I was expecting last month. Although I have some fear that OS X will become highly optimized for 64 bit computing leaving G4 and older processors out in the cold, the G4 is a strong, dependable CPU. It isn't the fastest on the block, but as one of my friends at work mentioned, "it just works."

Not to get too far off on a tangent, I agree with one of the previous posts stating company financials don't have much to do with product. When you see the debt rating services like Moodys or S&P downgrading AAPL, then you might become concerned about financials affecting product. Till then, bring on the new products!

dontmatter

Apr 4, 2004, 04:29 PM

Heck of a lot of good rumors these days.....

aswitcher

Apr 4, 2004, 06:47 PM

They're making a profit, that's the only thing that matters. (Well, almost)

Who cares if you have a large market share if you lose money hand over fist like Gateway?

If they were bigger economies of scale would bring down their prices and they would grow...that would be nice.

nightcap965

Apr 4, 2004, 09:45 PM

If they were bigger economies of scale would bring down their prices and they would grow...that would be nice.

If we had some ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had some eggs. :)

Seriously, I'd like to thank each and every one of you for not coming up with any new rumors this weekend. You knew my G5 is only a week old and didn't want to make me feel bad. Thanks - you people are the greatest.

:p

AidenShaw

Apr 5, 2004, 12:25 AM

Although I have some fear that OS X will become highly optimized for 64 bit computing leaving G4 and older processors out in the cold....

Don't worry - OS X is still a 32-bit operating system, and Apple has not even begun to describe their roadmap for moving to a 64-bit operating system.

By the time they finish the transition, the G4 will be so old that few people will even care....

rhodescholar

Apr 5, 2004, 12:51 AM

B!nej

Apr 5, 2004, 01:40 AM

What did you expect him to say? "New machines in a month, no need for you to buy one of these!"? Something like that? An Apple expert is not Apple, and just because he's a fool doesn't imply that everyone who works at apple is a fool. Shop assistants will never know _anything_ about future product releases, so I don't know why you even bothered asking him.

I disagree with the rest of your post as well. From my point of view, this is the best time (and for me, the only time) in history to own a Mac. They have the best high end line they've had in years, and the desktop line will surely be updated soon enough - I'm thinking June or before.

The cost of being a developer on the Mac has never been lower, the tools and frameworks have never been better, and I've never seen a better range of software available for the mac than is available now. I know five people (three from Unix, one from Ancient PC Land, one iMac upgrade) who have bought Macs in the last year, and _all_ of them are happy with their machines. I don't know anyone who has bought a new PC in the last year.

I own both a Mac and a PC Wintel laptop. The laptop is about three times faster than my eMac, and you know, that's utterly useless to me, because it's still so much easier and faster for me to get work done on my Mac. This is going to be even better when my G5 arrives in a few days. :)

...his response was that "macs are so much faster than what ever else is out there, they dont need to put any machines out for years." Is this guy on crack?...

Nicky G

Apr 5, 2004, 02:38 AM

I think it's funny that an audio guy with an old-as-heck G4 is bashing Apple because they have no decent desktop offerings? I guess the G5s that will blow away any PC in terms of raw audio performance is, uh, nothing to bother with? That's right -- for audio processing, memory bandwidth is KEY, and the G5 has more than any other desktop out there. Why don't you actually look at the performance tests of the G5 vs. Intel and AMD solutions when it comes to audio work. The G5s blow them ALL away.

What ridiculous trolling. This is THE low point to own a Mac in the past 25 years? The best OS ever made, a hardware platform that actually has legs and can compete head-to-head with AMD and Intel offerings...

Sometimes I _really_ think that a lot of these anti-Apple posts are made by guerilla Intel marketers or something. For real -- this kind of thing does happen, maybe it's happening here? I don't know what else could explain such an utterly ridiculous lack of logic and common sense, other than a few 15 year olds having some fun with the Mac zealots. I doubt these people even own Macs.

Btw, Logic is too expensive for you, but you claim to be an audio pro or something? Give me a break, I doubt you are more than a hobbyist. Maybe Logic Express is more up your ally. Or reason. Or maybe you should look for a new hobby, and leave Logic and kick-butt G5s to the pros.

Sheesh. The trolls are really getting out of hand these days. I don't really remember it being this bad between product updates before. I guess Apple is doing something right, and is starting to scare the anti-Apple crowd even more than usual. That probably means awesome things coming down the pipe.

billyboy

Apr 5, 2004, 04:24 AM

"How are you going to spin we have now reached the 1% market share that all the bmw lovers say is Great for Apple. you know the ones who want to be the only one with a Mac. This will be a very very bad qtr for Apple. taking to long to boot out G4 and taking to long to get everyone on a current chip such as G5. Its Apples Fault for taking way to long to get off the turtle they have been riding known as G4. The Desktop line is a mess. Apple should focus on computers that the public wants not computers that Jobs & Ives want to build. Powermac,Imac,Emac everyone of these are missing the market. Unless you want that 1%"

How a rational person can call this trolling is beyond me.

I have owned macs for longer than many of you have probably been alive, going back to 1982. I have been thru it all, clones, steve jobs, no steve jobs, etc., and this is without a doubt the low point of owning a mac.

It is also the closest i have come to purchasing a pc, as it seems apple has simply abandoned its hardware desktop market. I was in compusa, and when i asked the apple specialist why hadnt there been any info about a desktop release, his response was that "macs are so much faster than what ever else is out there, they dont need to put any machines out for years." Is this guy on crack?

What is so typically irritating about this response is the utter arrogance of it, that the average apple customer has no knowledge of the world, only what jobs WANTS you to know. The fact that it is absolute crap only worsens the situation. I told the guy he is totally wrong, and left it at that.

I use my mac for music composition, in the past apple's second strongest after video production, that apple has abandoned the fastest. I have a G4/450 and was looking to upgrade to a new mac, but realize that it could be 5-6 months before the next generation of G5s is released. As such, i am seriously looking at a pc desktop and purchasing cubase, given that apple bought emagic and raised the price of logic to $1,000 - an outrage if there ever was one., given that there is no upgrade path unless you have a VERY recent copy of logic.

The fact is, is that apple has basically told its userbase to screw off, they, like gateway, are moving into other markets (iPod), and dont care that noone is buying their desktop products anymore.

Funny guy. Look seriously at a PC, do your homework on Apple sales, say and do what you like. It is a free world of ever inproving access to information. The info you are spreading seems to not bear up, but whatever.

rhodescholar

Apr 5, 2004, 11:36 AM

Yes, i work for intel, and love bill gates. Get real, not everyone who complains about apple's bad decisions MUST be an enemy. You sound like an islamic-fascist: "either you agree with me that apple is above reproach, or else!!"

Funny thing happened to me this morning. I was sitting in an office lobby and the 4/04 Money magazine issue had an article mentioned on the cover that said EXACTLY what others have said in this thread before me, that the ipod is NOT going to save apple, and that apple's market share is falling fast.

This article has the statistics for numbers of desktop machines sold, which is more important than the number of OS' sold. Apple can sell 1 trillion ipods, and given the low profit margins on them, it wont make much difference. Apple needs to update its line more often than every 2 years or so.

As for my situation, unless you know the marketplace you are discussing, you are better off not mixing in. Everyone in audio KNOWS the g5 is faster, but this means nothing when apple JUST released a functional logic version that is compatible with osX. Go check the raging logic forum in yahoo groups to see what happened, and why so many composers are refusing to get a g5. I wont get into it here, but even apple's reps on the board (which is their primary venue for customer support for logic) were saying to stay with os9 for now. It is called "logic-forum" in yahoo groups if you are interested.

Further, apple changed its pci card structure so that all scsi-based legacy equipment, which many ppl rely upon (samplers, hardware recorders, etc) is now incompatible with the g5 - unless you want to spend $400 for an ultra-scsi card which buys FAR more capability than is needed. If they switched from the 5V pci slot to 3.3v for a good reason, fine, then they should offer a scsi-card thats is compatible with CURRENT g5, or at least leaned on 3rd party companies to make one like they did when they switched from serial to uSB. Since the cards changed, the audio recording solutions are up in the air, with m-audio possibly being the only reasonable solution for the moment.

rhodescholar

Apr 5, 2004, 11:41 AM

[QUOTE=Nicky G]"I think it's funny that an audio guy with an old-as-heck G4 is bashing Apple because they have no decent desktop offerings? I guess the G5s that will blow away any PC in terms of raw audio performance is, uh, nothing to bother with? That's right -- for audio processing, memory bandwidth is KEY, and the G5 has more than any other desktop out there. Why don't you actually look at the performance tests of the G5 vs. Intel and AMD solutions when it comes to audio work. The G5s blow them ALL away."

Who cares if apple is selling a supercomputer? If their own software doesnt work right - which logic didnt for a long time until in the last few months - what dif does it make?

Btw, Logic is too expensive for you, but you claim to be an audio pro or something? Give me a break, I doubt you are more than a hobbyist. Maybe Logic Express is more up your ally. Or reason. Or maybe you should look for a new hobby, and leave Logic and kick-butt G5s to the pros.

Where did i claim to earn a living from music? All i said was that i use my mac to make music. If you stopped being so hostile you might come across better.

evetommy

Apr 5, 2004, 01:50 PM

"The Xserve shipping was delayed because: Google's Gmail is powered by Apple's Xserve and all produced units went Google's way..."

Interesting how many of you are wary about Apple's Q2 (including myself). However Steve Jobs knows a thing or two about huge announcements and surprises. The above rumour if through would be enormously positive for Apple's Xserve business.
The "claim" was posted to the Fool.com Apple forum and apparently reported by macslash.org (?)...

Even if the above claim isn't correct (it's pure speculation or fabrication probably, though it would be fab if it were true) I'm sure many of us can come up with other fab suprises that could swing the Q2 conference call in positive territory...

Nicky G

Apr 5, 2004, 11:48 PM

Who cares if apple is selling a supercomputer? If their own software doesnt work right - which logic didnt for a long time until in the last few months - what dif does it make?

What _are_ you talking about? I have been using Logic on Macs since v.4, and it has always been light years ahead of other OS X-based audio programs. I have been on the Logic yahoo forum in the past, and I am a moderator on www.osxaudio.com. Lots of VERY happy Logic OS X users.

Is it hostility you sense in me, or, no pun intended, logic? I'm sorry, but your observations just do not mesh with those of TONS of other people. Your qualms may be legitimate, but they are hardly universal.

thatwendigo

Apr 6, 2004, 07:25 AM

How a rational person can call this trolling is beyond me.

It's really, really easy, actually, since DHM has very little in the way of facts to ever back anythign he says. It's an awful lot off impassioned personal testimony and opinion, but little citation.

Reading over your post, I can see why you agree with him. To arms...

I have owned macs for longer than many of you have probably been alive, going back to 1982. I have been thru it all, clones, steve jobs, no steve jobs, etc., and this is without a doubt the low point of owning a mac.

Actually, you're wrong. Most of the people around here are older than me, and I was born before you started using macs. This is especially funny, since you claim that you've been using macs since 1982, but the Macintosh 128k (http://www.lowendmac.com/compact/128k.shtml) wasn't released until January 1984. At the time, I was using an Apple IIe, but I remember the Macintosh in its early days.

So, with this simple statement, you've already called your credibility into question.

It is also the closest i have come to purchasing a pc, as it seems apple has simply abandoned its hardware desktop market. I was in compusa, and when i asked the apple specialist

.....

The fact that it is absolute crap only worsens the situation. I told the guy he is totally wrong, and left it at that.

The inability of a salesman in a non-Apple store to answer your questions doesn't say anything about the company, nor does it reflect on the product line in any way. If that's your idea of a damning criticism of Apple, I suggest that you go remain right where you are, since the salespeople are just as likely to be ignorant of new happenings in the PC market.

Intel's facing a huge problem at the moment with their own megahertz myth, because it's poisoning their sales of Centrino laptops. People are buying the cheaper P4-M and Celeron laptops because the clock is higher, even though the newer chip is more power efficient and just as fast. There are some rumors floating around that Centrino desktops will start showing up soon, because they're not nearly as hot as P4s, but comparable in many aspects of performance.

I use my mac for music composition, in the past apple's second strongest after video production, that.....given that there is no upgrade path unless you have a VERY recent copy of logic.

Why? The current G5s are at least competitive with, if not superior to, anything in the PC creative sector for audio, and Logic is pretty highly looked upon in is latest incarnation. That being said, I have to wonder if you can point out a similarly high-grade creative professional program that has an upgrade path which would follow something more like what you apparently want. If you're running a Sawtooth and a copy of Logic purchased around the same time, then you've had some four or five years to have been maintaining your copy of the software.

I'm sure Microsoft will allow you to upgrade from 98 to XP for a discount. :rolleyes:

The fact is, is that apple has basically told its userbase to screw off, they, like gateway, are moving into other markets (iPod), and dont care that noone is buying their desktop products anymore.

They're moving off into other markets, which is why a major outlay was made on a totally new dual-processor systems, allied with the only major player in the desktop PPC game, sitting on an architecture that's still competitive after a year, and committed to jumping it by the end of the summer. That's probably also going to explain why they spent all the time and money to release, and then continue to maintain Panther...

You sound like an islamic-fascist: "either you agree with me that apple is above reproach, or else!!"

Well, you narrowly avoided the Nazi reference. Good for you!

Funny thing happened to me this morning. I was sitting in an office lobby and the 4/04 Money magazine issue had an article mentioned on the cover that said EXACTLY what others have said in this thread before me, that the ipod is NOT going to save apple, and that apple's market share is falling fast.

Oh no, not the media predicting Apple's death again, and again, and again, and... You get the point, don't you? Apple has been dying for 20 years, if you listen to the media. It's what they apparently do best, since it's what's always reported on, because it makes better news than any kind of success story or, you know, actual journalism.

This article has the statistics for numbers of desktop machines sold, which is more important than the number of OS' sold. Apple can sell 1 trillion ipods, and given the low profit margins on them, it wont make much difference. Apple needs to update its line more often than every 2 years or so.

Yet Apple is making money and free of debt... Funny that.

Further, apple changed its pci card structure so that all scsi-based legacy equipment, which many ppl rely....Since the cards changed, the audio recording solutions are up in the air, with m-audio possibly being the only reasonable solution for the moment.

How can I put this?

The G5 moves on to entirely faster formats, things that are vastly superior to their older counterparts - USB2, FireWire 800, SATA, PCI-X, AGP 8x, PC3200, and so on. The whole package is new, and I couldn't put my legacy ATA drive in there, nor could I strip the RAM from my existing tower, were I to buy one. I can't reuse my graphics card, either! Horror!

You were just complaining that your G4 Sawtooth was too slow, and that tells me a lot about just how much money you're making as an audio "professional." Oh, wait... Now you're denying it and blaming your lack of clarity on others. How lovely.

rhodescholar

Apr 6, 2004, 09:08 AM

[QUOTE=thatwendigo] Actually, you're wrong. Most of the people around here are older than me, and I was born before you started using macs. This is especially funny, since you claim that you've been using macs since 1982, but the Macintosh 128k (http://www.lowendmac.com/compact/128k.shtml) wasn't released until January 1984. At the time, I was using an Apple IIe, but I remember the Macintosh in its early days. So, with this simple statement, you've already called your credibility into question.

Get real. apple/macinstosh.. who gives a sh-t, except a fanatic apple lover like you? I hate gates more than anyone, but its fanatics like you who lap up everything jobs throws at you that is equally nauseating. Do you really think jobs, if he had 95% of the market, would be any less malevelant than billy? Dont bet on it.

The inability of a salesman in a non-Apple store to answer your questions doesn't say anything about the company, nor does it reflect on the product line in any way. If that's your idea of a damning criticism of Apple, I suggest that you go remain right where you are, since the salespeople are just as likely to be ignorant of new happenings in the PC market.

The apple reps are in a whole, imho, more arrogant than their pc brethren.

Why? The current G5s are at least competitive with, if not superior to, anything in the PC creative sector for audio, and Logic is pretty highly looked upon in is latest incarnation. That being said, I have to wonder if you can point out a similarly high-grade creative professional program that has an upgrade path which would follow something more like what you apparently want.

Hmmmm....performer, cubase...etc

If you're running a Sawtooth and a copy of Logic purchased around the same time, then you've had some four or five years to have been maintaining your copy of the software.

I never said i wouldnt pay for an upgrade, but i paid $700 for logic 4 years ago. Asking the user base to shell out another $999 for version 6 is BS, esp with the various logic forums raging about the incapatibilities. Did i mention how sounddiver is also pretty nonfunctional in osX? A setup with more than 1 device is useless without it.

They're moving off into other markets, which is why a major outlay was made on a totally new dual-processor systems, ...

What markets? They have lost home users, education, business, enterprise...all they have left is a slice of audio and video, with companies like adobe and others no longer offering mac versions of their apps. This is a problem.

Oh no, not the media predicting Apple's death again, and again, and again, and... You get the point, don't you? Apple has been dying for 20 years, if you listen to the media. It's what they apparently do best, since it's what's always reported on, because it makes better news than any kind of success story or, you know, actual journalism.

Point taken, but the numbers, if taken as a trend from 20 years ago, dont look good for apple. My preference would be to buy a mac BY FAR again, and was about to, but the lack of support the mac is getting, along with the lack of compatibility of osX with many audio apps, plugins, hardware etc., stopped me. My research has not been comforting to those who want to just go out and buy a new g5 and plug in all of their legacy equipment.

Computers need to be like the highway system, where just b/c you buy a new car doesnt mean you need to change the road system to drive it. Until the computer industry gets in their head that backwards compatibility is crucial, especially for those like me who no longer have hours on end to research solutions - and just throwing out all older equipment/spending vast $$ to solve the issue buying new - there will be significant resistance to upgrading.

Yet Apple is making money and free of debt... Funny that.

This is not accurate. Money posted public financial information, and apple is barely profitable. Margins are 1/4th of what they were 4 years ago.

The G5 moves on to entirely faster formats, things that are vastly superior to their older counterparts - USB2, FireWire 800, SATA, PCI-X, AGP 8x, PC3200, and so on. The whole package is new, and I couldn't put my legacy ATA drive in there, nor could I strip the RAM from my existing tower, were I to buy one. I can't reuse my graphics card, either! Horror!

Its more than just the video card, its many thousands of dollars in samplers, recording equipment, etc.

You were just complaining that your G4 Sawtooth was too slow, and that tells me a lot about just how much money you're making as an audio "professional." Oh, wait... Now you're denying it and blaming your lack of clarity on others. How lovely.

I didnt say it was too slow. I simply felt after 5 years it was time to upgrade to a newer machine. Can i still survive with my current setup? Sure, and there are people recording albums today using atari STs that are 20 years old or so. This upgrade is based more on personal desire, rather than on professional/functional need. Do i hear gear lust?

And since it didnt sink in the first 2 times, heres the third: i am not making money off my writing of music. Get it now?

rhodescholar

Apr 6, 2004, 09:11 AM

What _are_ you talking about? I have been using Logic on Macs since v.4, and it has always been light years ahead of other OS X-based audio programs. I have been on the Logic yahoo forum in the past, and I am a moderator on www.osxaudio.com. Lots of VERY happy Logic OS X users.

Is it hostility you sense in me, or, no pun intended, logic? I'm sorry, but your observations just do not mesh with those of TONS of other people. Your qualms may be legitimate, but they are hardly universal.

I accept your comments, but understand that several audio engineers i am friends with, who are active in the logic forum and make a living in mastering/production, all independantly corroborated the same osX issues. I do not deny that some, even many osx/logic users are working correctly, but there are definitely compatibility issues. Thank you for the link, i will review the forum diligently, as it might have solutions to some of my questions.

thatwendigo

Apr 6, 2004, 10:04 AM

Get real. apple/macinstosh.. who gives a sh-t, except a fanatic apple lover like you? I hate gates more than anyone, but its fanatics like you who lap up everything jobs throws at you that is equally nauseating. Do you really think jobs, if he had 95% of the market, would be any less malevelant than billy? Dont bet on it.

Who cares? I'd say that anyone who's interested in the veracity of your claims ought to be paying attention to how you fumble something that easy and verifiable. I'm not a fanatic, but I am an Apple supporter, because I honestly haven't ever used a computer that had the same ease of use, but I know that it's possible something better will come along. If it does, then I'll switch, but until that day... Apple is the best GUI OS on the market, hands down, and it has been for some time.

Also, any point you make about Steve Jobs is irrelevant to this discuussion. Whether or not he would be ruthless doesn't matter to a discussion of Logic and the G5, because that situation doesn't exist.

The apple reps are in a whole, imho, more arrogant than their pc brethren.

Oh, well... I guess that it must be true if it's in your humble opinion.

Hmmmm....performer, cubase...etc

Cubase SX $799.99
Cubase SL2 $499.99

After that, I have a little trouble deciphering the chart, since I've never been a user of Cubase and don't know what the price points for the older version are.

I never said i wouldnt pay for an upgrade, but i paid $700 for logic 4 years ago. Asking the user base to shell out another $999 for version 6 is BS, esp with the various logic forums raging about the incapatibilities. Did i mention how sounddiver is also pretty nonfunctional in osX? A setup with more than 1 device is useless without it.

Then buy another program. The only vote that counts in a capitalist economy is the one that you make with your dollar. If you think Logic is overpriced, then don't use it, but whining about it on a web forum isn't going to change anything, and it only clutters the board with something that most of us see for what it is - sour grapes. You can't have your shiny new setup as cheaply as you want, so you're trying to get everyone else to avoid it, too.

What markets? They have lost home users, education, business, enterprise...all they have left is a slice of audio and video, with companies like adobe and others no longer offering mac versions of their apps. This is a problem.

I was being sarcastic about your ridiculous claim that Apple is moving into the music player market and only doing that.

Computers need to be like the highway system, where just b/c you buy a new car doesnt mean you need to change the road system to drive it. Until the computer industry gets in their head that backwards compatibility is crucial, especially for those like me who no longer have hours on end to research solutions - and just throwing out all older equipment/spending vast $$ to solve the issue buying new - there will be significant resistance to upgrading.

Then go bitch and moan at the manufacturers of your equipment, and not Apple. Expecting a hardware company to keep every legacy format in their machines is completely ludicrous. I mean, someone might still want to use the tape drive from their Commodore, so we better keep that in... While we're at it, let's make sure that everyone can plug in 5.25" floppies, magnetic spools, and IBM punchcards!

Would you like a side of ADB with that?

This is not accurate. Money posted public financial information, and apple is barely profitable. Margins are 1/4th of what they were 4 years ago.

It's not accurate, because Apple is barely profitable, according to a magazine. Well, I guess that shows us, since barely being profitable isn't a part of the subset of things that are included in "being profitable."

:rolleyes:

Its more than just the video card, its many thousands of dollars in samplers, recording equipment, etc.

Congratulations on expending that kind of money on outdated hardware. You know what's sitting in my garage? "Many thousands of dollars" in obsolete computer equipment. I better go complain that Apple doesn't make sure that my external SCSI CD drive doesn't plug into my eMac, or even into my G4 tower!

This upgrade is based more on personal desire, rather than on professional/functional need. Do i hear gear lust?

I figured that out before you ever admitted it.

And since it didnt sink in the first 2 times, heres the third: i am not making money off my writing of music. Get it now?

I got it, once you clarified that your self-righteousness was because of a hobby, and not from an actual profession.

Bhennies

Apr 6, 2004, 01:17 PM

"How are you going to spin we have now reached the 1% market share that all the bmw lovers say is Great for Apple. you know the ones who want to be the only one with a Mac. This will be a very very bad qtr for Apple. taking to long to boot out G4 and taking to long to get everyone on a current chip such as G5. Its Apples Fault for taking way to long to get off the turtle they have been riding known as G4. The Desktop line is a mess. Apple should focus on computers that the public wants not computers that Jobs & Ives want to build. Powermac,Imac,Emac everyone of these are missing the market. Unless you want that 1%"

I use my mac for music composition, in the past apple's second strongest after video production, that apple has abandoned the fastest. I have a G4/450 and was looking to upgrade to a new mac, but realize that it could be 5-6 months before the next generation of G5s is released.

The fact is, is that apple has basically told its userbase to screw off, they, like gateway, are moving into other markets (iPod), and dont care that noone is buying their desktop products anymore.

I totally agree. Go ahead, everyone give me *****. I am working on Pro Tools, and have to upgrade my hardware if I want to get a G5 (Digidesign pci-cards are no longer compatible). That alone is frustrating, but understandable, but the worst is I have been waiting for several months for the 23" display update, with a new g5- I have 6,000 waiting to drop on this computer, and can't wait any longer...my dual sawtooth is so slow! What is wrong with that picture? And no, I don't want to buy the Rev. A g5. And no, i don't want to buy the older 23" HD monitor that has the old LCD technology.

I agree that if Apple can't keep their die-hard users happy, those of us who literally use every spare inch of their computer's available power, then they essentially lose their marketshare completely. I have persuaded over 5 people close to me to buy Apple computers, including my mother, so I'm not some PC freak. I would never buy a PC, but I am thoroughly dissapointed in Apple right now. I could not convince anyone to buy Apple stock, at least for long-term hold (I know, I know, the iPod inflated the stock), because the company is run poorly. Customers shouldn't have to wait for products, especially after they've purchased them. They act like the airlines..they know that people need their products for certain things, so they get comfortable. That's why Apple stock is not recommended by anyone who knows the market who OBJECTIVELY can stand back and look at the long-term. It's hard to realize that when you love their products, which I do. I hope I'm wrong. Please proceed with the "if you hate Apple, then get off this forum, PC loving a$$hole" comments.

To rhodescholar, I suggest you check out something other than Logic. If you're into MIDI, check out Digital Performer. Audio, there's no choice but Pro Tools. Cubase is OK, but Nuendo has the best hardware for the $. I have an RME/Nuendo 8 i/o converter that I use with my Pro Tools Rig, and it sounds fantastic. Much better than MOTU / Digi stuff (except for 192 HD). However, the MOTU 192 HD is pretty sick as well. By the way, is "rhodescholar" referring to a Fender Rhodes piano? If so, very cool. I have a '75 Mark I.

By the way, i am a professional audio producer so don't try and character assassinate me on some Dick Clarke *****. Thanks for hearing me whine! New G5's soon please!