School shooting in Winnenden, Germany outside of Stuttgart

[cleanup]

At least 10 people have been killed in a shooting at a school in south-west Germany, police say.

Most of the dead are thought to have been pupils at the Albertville secondary school in Winnenden, north of Stuttgart.

Police say the gunman, who was reported to have been wearing black combat gear, has fled into the town.

A search is underway, with helicopters circling above the town. Police and rescue teams are at the school.

"We have to assume a death toll in the double-digits," a spokeswoman for the interior ministry in the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg told the Reuters news agency.

"These are students," she said.

The editor of the local paper, Frank Nipkau, told television channel N-TV that eight pupils and two adults were among the dead.

The incident is reported to have begun around 0945 (0845 GMT).

Local media reports say the gunman was a former pupil.

About 1,000 children are thought to attend the school, in the town some 20km (12 miles) north-east of Stuttgart.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7936817.stm

:(

[xUKHCx]

At least 15 dead now. Some killed as the gunman was running away from the school where he continued to shoot.

The gunman (17 year old ex pupil) apparently has been killed in a shoot out with police.

Not a good day.

10 People in Alabama have been shot as well (although not in a school).

[Henri Gaudier]

And no doubt Marilyn Manson was loading for him.

[Lord Blackadder]

It seems that the gunman did not turn the weapons on himself either - he was killed in a shootout with police. Suicide by cop.

[takao]

it looks like he used one of the legal guns of his father since one of them is missing
also multiple policemen are badly injured

[Nojja]

This is getting unoriginal. What is wrong with these kids, even if you are mobbed or maybe abused by your father or whatever, you make what you want of your experiences. There are people who have had a terrible start in their life, but have become wonderful people as grown ups then there are people who takes negative experiences and makes something negative out of it.

[takao]

according to the press conference on n-tv the father owned 15 guns, 14 which were locked up in a gun safe and 1 stored unsecured in the bedroom

now guess which one was taken ... (there is a reason why there is a law which requires locking up guns)

[G.T.]

And no doubt Marilyn Manson was loading for him.

Why would you even say that, I hope you are trying to be funny. Anyone that blames Manson or any other artist does not have any idea what they are taking about.

Manson is a very intelligent person who people are too quick to judge. When he got blamed for columbine he had this to say:

Michael Moore: If you were to talk directly to the kids at Columbine or the people in that community, what would you say to them if they were here right now?

Marilyn Manson: I wouldn't say a single word to them, I would listen to what they have to say and that's what no one did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90xJVOUuV-I

[Lord Blackadder]

now guess which one was taken ... (there is a reason why there is a law which requires locking up guns)

There's going to be a lot more laws soon I imagine, as the German lawmakers react to this tragedy. I wonder what gets banned after this.

[trule]

There's going to be a lot more laws soon I imagine, as the German lawmakers react to this tragedy. I wonder what gets banned after this.

Keeping guns at home. There are plenty of shooting clubs where they could be stored.

[Lord Blackadder]

Keeping guns at home. There are plenty of shooting clubs where they could be stored.

Good guess. Though the problem wasn't the guns that were locked up at home - it was the gun that wasn't locked up.

News articles have already mentioned revising gun laws in Germany as a result of this, but they are also blaming violent video games again. :rolleyes:

[takao]

News articles have already mentioned revising gun laws in Germany as a result of this, but they are also blaming violent video games again. :rolleyes:

as was expected ... though compared to the last time the actual guns are getting it this time

and from new informations the guy did actually shoot himself after getting wounded by a police round

it sure was quite a bit of a firefight
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1461134,00.jpg

[trule]

Good guess. Though the problem wasn't the guns that were locked up at home - it was the gun that wasn't locked up.


Yes, and they will decide that removing all guns from domestic homes is the best way to protect the population from negligent owners and their troubled family members (with the usual exceptions for law enforcement etc). Guns in Germany are tightly controlled already so this extra level is quite easy to implement.

They may also ban hand guns or guns with certain magazine size?

I don't think the Germans will take to well to this kind of thing happening again, its not really what people expect.

[Lord Blackadder]

I don't think the Germans will take to well to this kind of thing happening again, its not really what people expect.

More likely they'll just go for a more sweeping firearms ban, perhaps outlawing everything?

[iJohnHenry]

83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89?? That's not your Mother's shotgun, people!!!

Blame the shooter, then the weapon used, but not all guns.

[trule]

More likely they'll just go for a more sweeping firearms ban, perhaps outlawing everything?

No, there is quite a hunting heritage in Germany so that would not be possible. The one thing about Germans is that they usually are sensible about these things and tend to try to fix the actual problem, which in this case seems to be access to weapons and types of weapons available.

Perhaps something like in the UK will happen? In the end you have to ask why are handguns even available to the general public except in exceptional cases? I would like to shoot hand guns, its fun, but I don't like that they are in my neighbours house. I would happily have a gun and store it at a gun club.

Keep in mind this is Germany, not America, very different situation.

[trule]

83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89?? That's not your Mother's shotgun, people!!!

Blame the shooter, then the weapon used, but not all guns.

The focus will be on preventing, blame is not particularly helpful once the deed is done.

[Lord Blackadder]

No, there is quite a hunting heritage in Germany so that would not be possible. The one thing about Germans is that they usually are sensible about these things and tend to try to fix the actual problem, which in this case seems to be access to weapons and types of weapons available.

I'd probably read that as a ban on everything that is not a bolt-action or break-action hunting rifle. In other words: all handguns banned, all autoloading rifles and shotguns banned. Unless you grandfather in those guns already in the system, you're going to have to buy them back from owners (or force them to surrender them for free.).

In addition, you'd have to come up with a place people could store hunting/sporting weapons if it's not legal to keep them at home, and come up with a legal method for transporting them (some additional licenses I suppose).

[iJohnHenry]

Not all shotguns, just auto-loaders.

Single and double-barrel break-action ones should not be affected, IMO.

Sorry, a miss-read. "all autoloading rifles and shotguns banned"

[trule]

I'd probably read that as a ban on everything that is not a bolt-action or break-action hunting rifle. In other words: all handguns banned, all autoloading rifles and shotguns banned. Unless you grandfather in those guns already in the system, you're going to have to buy them back from owners (or force them to surrender them for free.).


If they went that far then yes, not so sure on the shotgun as that's used in some forms of hunting.

To be honest I doubt they will ban anything, or if they do it will only be hand guns.


In addition, you'd have to come up with a place people could store hunting/sporting weapons if it's not legal to keep them at home, and come up with a legal method for transporting them (some additional licenses I suppose).

Storage is no real problem, the gun clubs around here are pretty nice (I'm 15km from where the shooting happened) and adding secure storage would not be difficult. There are at least 2 gun clubs with 3km of my house, so its not like its an inconvenience for anyone to have their guns stored away from the home.

[EricNau]

That's very tragic. My heart goes out to the families and German community. :(

[Lord Blackadder]

That's very tragic. My heart goes out to the families and German community. :(

Indeed. Every time this happens my first reaction is always horror as I place myself in the shoes of the victims, then shock (WHY would someone want to do this?), then anger.

No matter what laws we pass afterwords or who we blame, we can't bring people back from the dead, and that's the tragedy that is so difficult to accept.

[Abstract]

10 People in Alabama have been shot as well (although not in a school).

I think people are always more shocked when it happens outside of the US. ;)


This is getting unoriginal.

Yeah, they should come up with a new way to take out their rage on people.

[dmr727]

Yeah, they should come up with a new way to take out their rage on people.

Once Germany bans handguns, I'm sure they will.

[Henri Gaudier]

Why would you even say that, I hope you are trying to be funny. Anyone that blames Manson or any other artist does not have any idea what they are taking about.

Manson is a very intelligent person who people are too quick to judge. When he got blamed for columbine he had this to say:

Michael Moore: If you were to talk directly to the kids at Columbine or the people in that community, what would you say to them if they were here right now?

Marilyn Manson: I wouldn't say a single word to them, I would listen to what they have to say and that's what no one did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90xJVOUuV-I

Don't fret GT it was meant to be a joke. I was implying that the media would regurgitate the usual claptrap.

[ski2moro]

As you probably know, the news in the US is not too complete when it comes to news outside of the country.

I have a couple of questions about the German school system.

When one finishes Realschule, is one qualified to go to work in his or her field or is more education required?

What type of career path can one choose to study in the Realschule?

At what age does one graduate from Realschule?


Is the German media saying what Tim K.'s area of study was?

Did he complete the curriculum or did he drop out?

Was he still studying something or was he employed?


Thanks.

[Winni]

They won't make the gun laws more restrictive. As even some German police spokesmen have already said, the laws that are currently in place are more than tight enough.

Especially with the hunting background, they just cannot ban handguns. The reasoning why every hunter is entitled to at least one handgun is the thing called "Gnadenschuß" -- when you've hit the game with the rifle, but only immobilized and not killed it. In this situation, the law says that a handgun is required.

Furthermore, fully automatic weapons cannot legally be purchased in Germany by civilians anyway, and semi-automatic weapons are also restricted.

Then you need to go through a LONG training (obtaining a hunter's license in Germany takes around two years of school training) and a lot of bureaucracy and exams before you are allowed to purchase a rifle.

How much more could this be restricted?

It's much easier - and quicker and cheaper - to talk to the "right" person in the "right" bar to get an illegal gun. And no law will ever prevent that sort of business.

Besides, no law could ever prevent a tragedy like this one from happening. Some people do not find a way to deal with the world as it is, and eventually they snap. If they don't use a gun, they might use a big truck and drive Amok instead of shooting. Or they lie fire to everything that comes in their way. Or they grab an axe and run through a pedestrian area. Or, or, or. There are infinite ways to run Amok, and none of them can be prevented.

And from what I've read today, this guy came from a "financially secure" family and "his parents bought him everything that he wanted". According to his teachers, he also was never mobbed, but even doing well in school and seemed to have been quite ambitious. Maybe nobody will ever know why he did what he did.

Spiegel Online wrote that he went for head shots and targeted mostly young women. Simple explanations would be that the preference for head shots could be related to zombie movies and first person shooters and the targeting of women could be related to sexual frustration or having been rejected by women that he was interested in.

Since he seemed to have been a quite intelligent person, he certainly was very aware of the consequences of his doing, so I think we can rule out an uncontrolled, spontaneous venting of aggression. I think this has been building up over a long time and he literally wanted to go out with blazing guns. Like somebody here said, this was a "suicide by cop", and he has probably fantasized about it for weeks or months before he had the opportunity (the unsecured gun) to realize it.

But no matter how long and deep this will be analyzed, the sad truth remains that tragedies like this cannot be prevented.

[Winni]

As you probably know, the news in the US is not too complete when it comes to news outside of the country.

I have a couple of questions about the German school system.

When one finishes Realschule, is one qualified to go to work in his or her field or is more education required?

What type of career path can one choose to study in the Realschule?

At what age does one graduate from Realschule?


Is the German media saying what Tim K.'s area of study was?

Did he complete the curriculum or did he drop out?

Was he still studying something or was he employed?


Thanks.

There are three main school paths in Germany (and a few others which I won't mention here): Hauptschule, Realschule and Gymnasium.

Hauptschule is nine classes, Realschule is ten classes and Gymnasium/Abitur used to be 13 classes in my time and is 12 classes today.

After Realschule, you usually learn a profession for another two to three years, while after finishing the Gymnasium you could go to a University and study.

So this guy has just graduated from a middle school and was on his way (or not) to learning a profession. I don't know more details about him, only that his parents were not doing bad financially - which implies that he most certainly did not have to worry about his future and was in no urgent need to find a job or an income. Unlike in the US, it is very common in Germany that the parents support their children even throughout their adulthood.

[takao]

T
Furthermore, fully automatic weapons cannot legally be purchased in Germany by civilians anyway, and semi-automatic weapons are also restricted.

Then you need to go through a LONG training (obtaining a hunter's license in Germany takes around two years of school training) and a lot of bureaucracy and exams before you are allowed to purchase a rifle.

How much more could this be restricted?

actually you have to consider the difference between an owning permit and a permit to carry the weapon
if somebody plans this for long what stops somebody from joining a shooting club (like this boys father was) take an entry course and then can easily get a gun with no hassle whatsoever .. that sure doesn't take 2 years
and over 25 a psychological review isn't needed anymore either

oh and just a few years ago the minimum age for shooting in a "Schützenverein" under supervision was reduced to 10 years by the german government (to get better sport shooters for sports competitions... oh teh irony)


that said in quite a bit european countries laws are less strict / different: in austria getting a long hunting rifle is easier (especially 1/2 barrel shotguns) 18 years and that's it

[trule]

Especially with the hunting background, they just cannot ban handguns. The reasoning why every hunter is entitled to at least one handgun is the thing called "Gnadenschuß" -- when you've hit the game with the rifle, but only immobilized and not killed it. In this situation, the law says that a handgun is required.


these laws are easily changed ... as are most laws



Then you need to go through a LONG training (obtaining a hunter's license in Germany takes around two years of school training) and a lot of bureaucracy and exams before you are allowed to purchase a rifle.

How much more could this be restricted?


the problem was a legal hand gun that was incorrectly stored, not a rifle nor a black market weapon ... check out the UK gun laws for an example of how this could be more restricted. or the gun laws in Australia.

[Lord Blackadder]

How much more could this be restricted?

Quite a bit, I imagine, but every nation has a different perspective. German gun ownerships seems to be predicated on a strong hunting culture. We have that too in the U.S. of course, but that's only part of the picture here.

the problem was a legal hand gun that was incorrectly stored, not a rifle nor a black market weapon ... check out the UK gun laws for an example of how this could be more restricted. or the gun laws in Australia.

I mentioned this earlier and it's an important point. It isn't that gun laws failed, rather that people failed to follow them.

[iJohnHenry]

1. Make it clear to parents that they are responsible for their kids and must be available to them. That means no matter how hard your job is, you MUST have time in your day where your kids can talk to you about their problems and feel like you take them seriously. Otherwise, DON'T HAVE KIDS!!!!

Forget that approach right away (except for the don't have kids part). The government now dictates how you may raise your kids. Some parents have just given-up the ghost, so the kids do what they want.

Btw. this also explains why in the US there is more shootings than in Canada even though Canadians have almost as many guns.

Source please, otherwise I'm calling BS.