New hires making more money than existing employees?

[detz]

Just throwing this out there to see what people think. I've been at my job for little over a year now and the job is pretty good. Currently I'm the only engineer here, one left in January and they fired the other one just Monday. I talked to the CEO and he said I'm great and I'm what they're looking for in new hires so I'm pretty sure my job is safe. So, this week I interviewed two new people for the same job as I have as a replacement for the guy who left in January but I noticed something while looking over the email sent over from the recruiter. One guys minimum salary is the same as I'm making and the other guy is $10k higher than I'm making. :( I think I would feel pretty ****** if they brought a new hire on for the same job and he's making around 13% more than me.

[MacVixen]

Will you be supervising the new engineers? If so I would say that it is appropriate to speak with your supervisor or HR Manager about the salary discrepancy. If you are all going to be on an equal level..... well, sometimes them are just the breaks, BUT if you feel comfortable doing so you can still bring up to your boss the difference in salary. Be aware however, that there could be differences in experience levels, skill sets, etc, that would justify a higher salary for the new employees.

[waiwai]

they are paying that amount to stay competitive with their competitors. it happens all the time especially in the private industry. it sucks for the guy that's already been there for some time, but that's the way it is... if you feel really bothered by it I would suggest contacting HR and having one of the compensation people sit down with you to hear your frustration. if your employer promotes employment equity they'll work something out with you, IF they are generous of course. also go through your contract, the terms and conditions and company policy with respect to job advancement/seniority. in a lot of cases employees don't know what they're entitled to and sometimes they lose out.

[Tomorrow]

If you received the email(s) with those salary figures and you're very sure that those are accurate (more on that in a minute), you can use that to your advantage.

First of all, did you receive the information legitimately? If you got it by accident or by snooping, you do NOT want to bring up to your boss that you got the email.

Secondly, if you're sure that what you're seeing is correct, in my opinion the time to bring this up is your next salary/performance review. I would print out the copy of the email today, file it away, and have it with you the next time you negotiate your raise.

[sn00pie]

Talk to the CEO. You surely deserve to be making $10k more than any new hire.

[detz]

We don't have HR, the company is 15 people. :-) I think it boils down to they don't think I will leave and they are not going to pay me more if they don't have to(who would) Honestly if I left right now things would come to a halt since now I'm the only one that knows how everything works. I wouldn't do that because I like everyone here but if another job offer came in with more money...

I'm not good with confrontation and also I don't want to risk them just saying f-off and firing me so I probably wont say anything. It's just a bummer know that for the same job you're getting paid less than someone just coming aboard.

[detz]

Talk to the CEO. You surely deserve to be making $10k more than any new hire.

What do I say? "I noticed in the email that the CTO sent to me that had the resume attached that the new hire is asking for $10k more than me. If this is true I honestly don't think it's fair"?

Sounds weird. I'm guessing I shouldn't have seen that and if I didn't none of this would have come up. Also, just because that's what he's asking for does not mean that's what they're going to give him so I could be saying that just to have them say he's making xxxx not yyyy.

[bartelby]

First I'd make sure that discussing colleagues pay doesn't break any contract agreements.

[neiltc13]

Contact your Union rep about this immediately!

[Tomorrow]

...the new hire is asking for $10k more than me. If this is true I honestly don't think it's fair"?

<snip>

Also, just because that's what he's asking for does not mean that's what they're going to give him....

Exactly. But if the market is paying employees of your caiber $10k more than you're earning right now, you're well within your rights to either ask for a raise, or shop your talents elsewhere (not necessarily in that order).

[detz]

Exactly. But if the market is paying employees of your caiber $10k more than you're earning right now, you're well within your rights to either ask for a raise, or shop your talents elsewhere (not necessarily in that order).

This year(my second year) they offered to give me salary bonuses every quarter if I make certain numbers(which is odd since I'm in software and not sales). Even if I made every bonus I would still be under what this new guy is making at the end of my second year.

They gave me a raise of $3k this year.

[ChrisA]

One guys minimum salary is the same as I'm making and the other guy is $10k higher than I'm making. :( I think I would feel pretty ****** if they brought a new hire on for the same job and he's making around 13% more than me.

That always happens. Your salary jumps only when you switch jobs and while you remain in a job it only goes not by smaller cost of living raises. The way to get ahead is to move around. But then you can only do that while you are young. After 25 years you become to specialized to do that.

The pay is based more on age and experience than on how long you've been with the company. Are these guys roughly about you same age and experience level? Then pay should match up to within about 20% give or take. Sounds to me like it does if there sis only a $10k difference.

I'd expect at least a 10% jump in pay if I switched jobs. Some times I've done better then that. Sounds like these guys are about what I'd expect.

[detz]

That always happens. Your salary jumps only when you switch jobs and while you remain in a job it only goes not by smaller cost of living raises. The way to get ahead is to move around. But then you can only do that while you are young. After 25 years you become to specialized to do that.

The pay is based more on age and experience than on how long you've been with the company. Are these guys roughly about you same age and experience level? Then pay should match up to within about 20% give or take. Sounds to me like it does if there sis only a $10k difference.

I'd expect at least a 10% jump in pay if I switched jobs. Some times I've done better then that. Sounds like these guys are about what I'd expect.

I would think it would be cheaper for an employer to pay more to keep talent and experience. If I leave now now only are they going to have to pay more for the new hire but it will take him months to catch up to the level I'm at if he even can. Wouldn't it be better just to pay me the amount they are offering new people.

[it5five]

Contact your Union rep about this immediately!

Haha, is this a joke? The OP lives in the United States, land of the 12.4 percent union rate. I'd be shocked if he was in a union. Personally, I know two people in unions, one of them being myself (work for the Postal Service), the other being my girlfriends father (he's a firefighter). The only big union "groups" in this country are government employees and educators.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

Read up on it.

[leekohler]

Talk to the CEO. You surely deserve to be making $10k more than any new hire.

Good luck with that. My company pulls the same crap. Talked to them about it. They didn't care.

[waiwai]

We don't have HR, the company is 15 people. :-) I think it boils down to they don't think I will leave and they are not going to pay me more if they don't have to(who would) Honestly if I left right now things would come to a halt since now I'm the only one that knows how everything works. I wouldn't do that because I like everyone here but if another job offer came in with more money...

I'm not good with confrontation and also I don't want to risk them just saying f-off and firing me so I probably wont say anything. It's just a bummer know that for the same job you're getting paid less than someone just coming aboard.

If this is truly the case, then go and talk to your boss. Confrontation? This is your employment on the line, you better man up and stick up for yourself or else people will continue to step on you. No one except you can make things happen. I specialize in HR and have gone thru countless cases like yours. A lot of employees are afraid to talk to their boss in fear that they will get canned if they make a peep... That's not how it works these days... It's the year 2009!!! I'm not saying go to your boss and go all out guns blazing and quit. I'm saying setup a meeting with your boss. Tell him exactly what's bothering you and why in a calm and mature manner and ask him if he can make things right for you. The worse thing he will do is say... "I'm sorry... we just don't have the budget" or something around those lines. Best case is they give u a bump in pay and everyone's happy. If they don't... Well consider your employment prospects with other companys, and just go look around in a discrete manner. Don't wait on something like this, take the opportunity to meet with your boss while the issue is still fresh. The sooner you bring up the issue with your employer, the sooner change will come.

Oh and just to add... If things aren't working out and you just wanna keep it down low for a bit and stay with your employer, you can wait till your contract renews. When renewal time comes, know that everything in your contract is negotiable. If they say its not and aren't willing to negotiate... well, that's one very lame employer, and its unfortunate. If u are truly valued by your employer, everything is negotiable. Good luck man.

[steve2112]

I just want to clear something up. Was this the "minimum salary" the people had listed on their resume/application? If so, I wouldn't be as worried about it. What people put on their resume as a minimum salary and what they will actually take are often two very different numbers. I often put that number higher that what I will actually take, just to give a bit of wiggle room.

With that said, I agree with some other folks here. If they are at a similar age and experience/skill point as you, I would approach the subject (gently) with your higher ups and see how they react. Of course, they may not even get hired because they want too much money! :)

[detz]

I just want to clear something up. Was this the "minimum salary" the people had listed on their resume/application? If so, I wouldn't be as worried about it. What people put on their resume as a minimum salary and what they will actually take are often two very different numbers. I often put that number higher that what I will actually take, just to give a bit of wiggle room.

With that said, I agree with some other folks here. If they are at a similar age and experience/skill point as you, I would approach the subject (gently) with your higher ups and see how they react. Of course, they may not even get hired because they want too much money! :)

One said "Required salary", one said "Requested salary". The info came from the recruiter not from the people themselves.

[trule]

Asking and getting are two different things.

If a new hire would earn more than me I would raise that with whoever, and if no action was taken then I would look for a new job.

Simple.

[Demosthenes X]

I just want to clear something up. Was this the "minimum salary" the people had listed on their resume/application? If so, I wouldn't be as worried about it. What people put on their resume as a minimum salary and what they will actually take are often two very different numbers. I often put that number higher that what I will actually take, just to give a bit of wiggle room.

Whew. I thought I was the only one who had actually read the thread. All you saw was how much these recruits are expecting. Unless you know how much they're actually getting, you can't say it's unfair. They're entitled to ask for whatever they want...

[zelmo]

What do I say? "I noticed in the email that the CTO sent to me that had the resume attached that the new hire is asking for $10k more than me. If this is true I honestly don't think it's fair"?

Sounds weird. I'm guessing I shouldn't have seen that and if I didn't none of this would have come up. Also, just because that's what he's asking for does not mean that's what they're going to give him so I could be saying that just to have them say he's making xxxx not yyyy.

In the history of employment I've never known a prospective employee to not try to improve their situation by putting a salary requirement on their application that exceeds their present or most recent salary. I had one guy, who I was interviewing for a $40K/yr position, tell me he needed far more than that because he had been earning $75K at his last job. I asked him what he made last week and he said 'Nothing, they let me go." Exactly.

Life isn't fair. It will never be fair. If you were happy with your salary before you found out what this guy was asking for (not necessarily getting), what has changed? Yes, you have to look out for yourself, but if you are constantly casting furtive glances and worrying about who makes more than you for doing the same or less, life will just pass you by.

Good luck with whatever course you decide to pursue.

[rhsgolfer33]

Whew. I thought I was the only one who had actually read the thread. All you saw was how much these recruits are expecting. Unless you know how much they're actually getting, you can't say it's unfair. They're entitled to ask for whatever they want...

Exactly! These new recruits could have salary expectations that are out of line with what the company will pay them; just because its on their resume or application or whatever, doesn't mean that's what they'll be making if they come to work there.

Regardless, this situation happens quite often. New hire Ph.D. accounting professors are often being offered more than tenured faculty at more than a few colleges. If you don't like it, ask for a raise or look for a new job.

As for contacting a union, ha. That was a good laugh when I read that. If he had a union he'd likely already have a pre-negotiated union contract at a certain rate that was nonnegotiable unless it was done by the union as a whole for all employees at that level, and of course, this question never would have been asked.

[Sun Baked]

If the company thinks they have you by the balls once you start working there, and withhold veteran pay ... it looks like you might as well start looking for a new job.

These places tend to advance you up the ladder, and say sorry we can't give you a raise now, maybe in the future.

If you have the headhunters e-mail, call em and see what they can do about placing you with a new company.

If you've been there a year, you might think again after you've got a couple years under your belt, and more fluff for the resume.

[McGiord]

OP: you have a great opportunity to negotiate. Keep in mind that nobody is indispensable at any company. Money is not all, but how it helps!
The whole package is the key: ask for more benefits, a better severance package, more vacation days, more bonuses, etc...You must show why you deserve more, with hard facts, numbers, not only time in the company.

The salary of new hires is always based on the budget available to cover that position, and how difficult is to find someone with the particular skills, knowledge and experience to do the job.

Market value of someone like you is always more than what you rcurrenlty receive.

For companies to find someone always cost more than what they currenlty pay to similar employees, this is based on the fact that if it is for a specialized position they will need to hire from a competitor, and for the candidate to make the move there should be an incentive. Or hire someone with potential that requires training (money or other type of investment = time).
However with the current economy and the massive amount of people unemployed many companies take advantage and find people that may not be a perfect fit for what is needed, and they prefer to pay less and use the current experienced employees to coach and train them.

Even you have more time in the company, that doesn't mean that you deserve more money than a new hire, sometimes new hires are more talented or have specific knowledge, skills or experience than people that have decades working there.

Changing roles or positions within the same company or working for another one is the easiest way to get more money, and many times less responsabilities.

[pilotError]

That's life, get used to it.

I made more than my bosses for a number of years as an employee. As a manager, I had a handful of folks that made more than me.

Given the current economic environment, your in no position to be demanding anything. Wait until things start to turn around, then ask for the raise. It sounds like they are treating you well anyway, no need to shake up the hornets nest.

[mkrishnan]

Good luck with that. My company pulls the same crap. Talked to them about it. They didn't care.

This is a perennial problem in engineering (and also in a number of other fields). The sad thing is it really rewards people for maintaining their mobility and changing companies periodically. Sometimes you can work the system in such a way that you can run the evidence past your manager and they can get the raise for you, but it's just honestly hard to keep up with the pace of pay in the industry by staying with the same company unless you go after a rapid promotion track.

[leekohler]

This is a perennial problem in engineering (and also in a number of other fields). The sad thing is it really rewards people for maintaining their mobility and changing companies periodically. Sometimes you can work the system in such a way that you can run the evidence past your manager and they can get the raise for you, but it's just honestly hard to keep up with the pace of pay in the industry by staying with the same company unless you go after a rapid promotion track.

I've had three promotions. I get great reviews every year too. Our company just reduced all our salaries by 5% too.

[Foxglove9]

I've had three promotions. I get great reviews every year too. Our company just reduced all out salaries by 5% too.

Me too. Been with the company 5 years, got 3 promotions, and now just a 20% salary cut, brings me back to where I started now only 3x as much work and responsibility.

As someone said, don't rock the boat in these economic times or if you do be careful about it.

[Abstract]

I would think it would be cheaper for an employer to pay more to keep talent and experience. If I leave now now only are they going to have to pay more for the new hire but it will take him months to catch up to the level I'm at if he even can. Wouldn't it be better just to pay me the amount they are offering new people.

Um......isn't this a bargaining chip more than a hindrance? If what you described is true, why would you feel bad about asking for the same pay as the new employee? They don't want to lose you, and you're the only person who can do the job right now?

The only problem may be what Bartelby said regarding knowledge of other people's pay. Usually, you don't know this type of info about other employees due to this exact situation.......it makes some people upset. You're not supposed to know, so if you know, and you tell someone that you're upset about this email, you may get someone else in trouble.

[yg17]

One said "Required salary", one said "Requested salary". The info came from the recruiter not from the people themselves.


That sounds like it's what the employee put on the application, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get it. Hell, I could put I request a million dollars a year to flip burgers at McDonalds, obviously doesn't mean that would be my starting salary there.

[jessica.]

First I'd make sure that discussing colleagues pay doesn't break any contract agreements.

I was thinking the same as it does in my company despite the constant discussions had. Personally, I don't ask I don't tell. As for the OP, if you're at risk for violating some company policy then keep your trap shut and just be happy you have a job. In other words, save yourself.

[jecapaga]

That's life, get used to it.

I made more than my bosses for a number of years as an employee. As a manager, I had a handful of folks that made more than me.

Given the current economic environment, your in no position to be demanding anything. Wait until things start to turn around, then ask for the raise. It sounds like they are treating you well anyway, no need to shake up the hornets nest.

I agree with this post. I have direct reports who make more than I do. I've had discussions with my boss and some things have been done to improve my position. Have a discussion with your boss once they are hired, you have no idea what they will settle for once hired. And this is no time to be making any waves or complaining. If necessary, stick it out till things get better and move one.

[n8236]

As someone who have worked w/ recruiters. These "requested" and "required" salaries are asking salaries. So, these numbers are not set in stone. There is wiggle room for your employer to lower it and negotiate w/ the recruiting company.

As others have mentioned, salary depends mainly on one thing, experience.

Don't be surprised that the person you're interviewing may make more or be higher up than you. I have a friend who is a senior financial analyst and interviewed a financial director (his future boss) for his current boss' position. This procedure is simply to make sure you can get along w/ this new person whom you or they will be managing.

[petermcphee]

First I'd make sure that discussing colleagues pay doesn't break any contract agreements.

Winner.

It's situations like this (hurt feelings and feelings of unfairness, etc) that give rise to policies prohibiting salary information from being shared. I think the above poster gives some very sage advice. Determining the answer to that question should be the first step.

[Crawn2003]

That's how my company is. Except I'm the new guy...:D

My starting salary, benefits, etc. were better than some of the people that's been there 5 years.

But on the other hand, I'm the top performer for our market, do management roles that aren't required of me, and generally work harder/better than the people that have been there for years.

Crawn

[McGiord]

I have seen that many new hired "all stars" after their first month realize that they can get along with the experienced people inside the company they just joined, and many of them are a bluff, and the management realize about this and do stupid things like promote them to make them fail and fire them.
Also I have seen them get frsutrated about the company get a better paying position at another company, and after some motnhs~1-2 years they come back with a bigger salary to occupy the same position they had in the past.

Anyway, there are good exceptions to this, and good talent people do exist, and yes they deserve to have a good salary.

And many good talented people are also underpaid.

So we will not get the money we want while working for somebody else, you will get what you deserve when you work for yourself.