Gay Bars to Female Patrons: Bachelorette Parties Not Welcome

[mkrishnan]

A little bit lighthearted and a little bit serious...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-trice-23-mar23,0,1502612.column

For years, some bar owners have tried to accommodate both groups, but that's becoming increasingly difficult. With California's vote last November in favor of the gay-marriage ban known as Proposition 8, some gays are saying that bachelorette parties at their bars are becoming more than a minor nuisance. They're a constant reminder that gays don't have equal marriage rights.

"The women are a hoot, and some can be just delightful," said Geno Zaharakis, the owner of Cocktail, a gay bar on North Halsted Street. "But because not everybody can get married, watching them celebrate, it's such a slap in the face. Prop 8 just reopened the wound."

Zaharakis told me that Cocktail stopped hosting bachelorette parties a couple of years ago when he noticed his gay patrons weren't just complaining about the women being minor irritants but about them "flaunting" their right to marry. So Zaharakis hung a sign on the front door of his establishment that says, "Bachelorette Parties Are Not Allowed."

[leekohler]

OK- I gotta say, I think it's fine to ban them. It's become far too common lately and very annoying. No one's saying straight people aren't allowed. We like you guys. But bachelorette parties get really obnoxious. If I want my a** grabbed by a straight woman I'll go to a straight bar (and yes, it happens). Please read the article and discuss.

They've become a familiar sight in gay bars: women holding bachelorette parties.

The bride-to-be is often easily identifiable. She's the one wearing either a veil or tiara or feather boa or phallic-shaped blow-up hat, and is surrounded by women who begin the night somewhat reserved but metamorphose into pelvis-thrusting vamps as their blood-alcohol levels rise.

The women come to celebrate without having to worry about straight men pawing them. The gay men are there because, well, they don't want to be around a lot of women.

For years, some bar owners have tried to accommodate both groups, but that's becoming increasingly difficult. With California's vote last November in favor of the gay-marriage ban known as Proposition 8, some gays are saying that bachelorette parties at their bars are becoming more than a minor nuisance. They're a constant reminder that gays don't have equal marriage rights.


"The women are a hoot, and some can be just delightful," said Geno Zaharakis, the owner of Cocktail, a gay bar on North Halsted Street. "But because not everybody can get married, watching them celebrate, it's such a slap in the face. Prop 8 just reopened the wound."

Zaharakis told me that Cocktail stopped hosting bachelorette parties a couple of years ago when he noticed his gay patrons weren't just complaining about the women being minor irritants but about them "flaunting" their right to marry. So Zaharakis hung a sign on the front door of his establishment that says, "Bachelorette Parties Are Not Allowed."

If that message isn't resonant enough, he offers a written statement: "Until same-sex marriage is legal everywhere and same-sex couples are allowed the rights as every heterosexual couple worldwide, we simply do not think it's fair or just for a female bride-to-be to celebrate her upcoming nuptials here at Cocktail. We are entitled to an opinion, this is ours."

Indeed some gay men and straight women have a friendship that's reminiscent of the old television show "Will & Grace." And many men make the distinction between their "girlfriends" who frequent gay bars and are sensitive to the marriage issue and other women who are merely seeking good music and "go-go boys" (translation: nearly naked male dancers) for a bachelorette party.

"We appreciate that these women are not homophobic and … want to party with us," said Jens Hussey, a gay man who's in a four-year relationship and worries about being able to make medical and other decisions regarding his partner. "But with all that's going on [in] the media about us not being able to marry, are [these women] willing to march with us or raise money with us or work to change somebody's attitude to help us get equal rights?"

Hussey recently was on hand at Circuit Night Club, a gay bar about three blocks north of Cocktail that caters to bachelorette parties. But he said he'd rather see women take such parties elsewhere until everybody legally can wed.

Circuit presents a Las Vegas-style male revue called SinZation that includes Honey West, billed as "the only transgender emcee of a male revue show anywhere in the country." Buff dancers don't strip bare-naked but get so close—using creatively draped G-strings—that hardly anything is left to the imagination.

On a recent Saturday night there, the gay marriage issue wasn't remotely on the minds of two groups of women whose inhibitions flew out the door as the dancers left the stage to retrieve dollar bills that the women strategically placed around their bodies.

"Gay men are far more reserved," said Hussey, watching and laughing from the sidelines.

One woman from Kansas City told me that she enjoyed being able to drink as much as she wanted and not having to worry about being propositioned by a straight guy or waking up the next morning in his bed.

I found it ironic that, as the women got liquored up, they were the ones doing the pawing and clawing until soon they resembled the straight guys they were trying to avoid.

And this, more than the equal rights issue, is why Art Johnston, the owner of the popular Halsted Street bar called Sidetrack, prefers not to hold bachelorette parties in his establishment.

"As gay men who understand discrimination, none of us want to look like we don't welcome folks," Johnston said. "But it comes down to ignorant, bad behavior. … That's the issue."

For others, though, the issue is gay marriage, and women who are considering hosting these parties should think about that issue. Such a party may feel less like a celebration in the presence of men who feel they're being discriminated against.

As the show got under way at Circuit with a theatrical mist floating over the audience, I asked reveler Blythe Thomas whether, in general, she believed holding bachelorette parties in gay bars was "heterosexist," or insensitive.

"I never would have thought about it like that," Thomas said, watching a curtainlike screen rise on four soon-to-be-nearly-naked dancers. "I could see how this could be frustrating to gay men. Maybe it's something I'll think about next time."

Maybe. But, for now, it was showtime.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-trice-23-mar23,0,1502612.column

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I love straight people as much as anyone else, but at the gay club I go to straight girls can be pretty annoying. They always bring their boyfriends who seem to have fun and be ridiculously uncomfortable at the same time.

[mkrishnan]

I posted it specifically for you, Lee. :) I think it's a reasonable policy... more power to them.

[leekohler]

I love straight people as much as anyone else, but at the gay club I go to straight girls can be pretty annoying. They always bring their boyfriends who seem to have fun and be ridiculously uncomfortable at the same time.

Well, the bachelorette parties in particular just turn into a bunch of drunk girls groping every guy they see, and even coming onto us pretty strongly, which gets damn annoying. My favorite is when they get all aggressive and go, "Why don't you like girls?! Are you afraid of girls?!", while they shove their hands down your pants. It can get a lot more gross than that. Why should I have to feel uncomfortable in a gay bar?

[Dmac77]

I wouldn't know how straight girls act at a gay bar, but if they're anything like the bimbos at my high school, I can understand why they want them out. And I fully support this.

Don

[mkrishnan]

Why should I have to feel uncomfortable in a gay bar?

That kind of double-standard / hypocrisy in a way is a kind of homophobia or heterosexism or whatever. It's absolutely absurd that a heterosexual woman would go to a gay bar to avoid unwanted advanced by heterosexual men, get drunk, and then make unwanted advances towards homosexual men. That's just in bad taste. I'm surprised that gay bars don't kick people who do that out right away whether they're in bachelorette parties or not. I wouldn't go to a lesbian bar and start trying to convert the lesbians. I might go because they're crazy mofo's and the party's fun, but that's neither here nor there. :p

[leekohler]

I posted it specifically for you, Lee. :) I think it's a reasonable policy... more power to them.

It's tough- but it got so out of hand. I hate that people can't control themselves to the point that somebody has to make a rule. But the bars were getting tons of complaints and losing business too.

That kind of double-standard / hypocrisy in a way is a kind of homophobia or heterosexism or whatever. It's absolutely absurd that a heterosexual woman would go to a gay bar to avoid unwanted advanced by heterosexual men, get drunk, and then make unwanted advances towards homosexual men. That's just in bad taste. I'm surprised that gay bars don't kick people who do that out right away whether they're in bachelorette parties or not. I wouldn't go to a lesbian bar and start trying to convert the lesbians. I might go because they're crazy mofo's and the party's fun, but that's neither here nor there. :p

Exactly- and that's fine. Anybody's welcome to show up. But the bachelorette parties just got way out of control.

And yes, lesbian bars are really fun. :) Those ladies know how to have a good time.

[Blue Velvet]

This fruit fly would still like to have the occasional drink with her friends in a venue of their choice. :o

[leekohler]

This fruit fly would still like to have the occasional drink with her friends in a venue of their choice. :o

Darlin'- no one is telling women not to show up. This is strictly in reference to bachelorette parties. Maybe it's a cultural phenomenon that isn't quite so annoying in the UK. You'd have to see it to believe it.

[bartelby]

Maybe it's a cultural phenomenon that isn't quite so annoying in the UK. You'd have to see it to believe it.

You have no idea how bad these things are over here!

[mkrishnan]

You have no idea how bad these things are over here!

We've heard tell of your hens.

[MikeDTyke]

Darlin'- no one is telling women not to show up. This is strictly in reference to bachelorette parties. Maybe it's a cultural phenomenon that isn't quite so annoying in the UK. You'd have to see it to believe it.

We call them Hen parties over here and yeah they can be irritating as hell. A hen party can turn a perfectly nice normal girl into a loud irritating horn dog nympho slag.

[Blue Velvet]

Maybe it's a cultural phenomenon that isn't quite so annoying in the UK.

I dunno. I'll ask around. And I sometimes pick up the free papers at the Queens Head, my gay local. I haven't been out clubbing for a long time so I'm not sure what general door policies might be at the mo over here.

Anyway, I'm in complete support of this idea. Hen nights (as they're called over here) can be a horrible crowd.

[bartelby]

We call them Hen parties over here and yeah they can be irritating as hell. A hen party can turn a perfectly nice normal girl into a loud irritating horn dog nympho slag.

Round here the annoyance in compounded by the horrendous screechy Welsh Valleys accents...

[steveza]

You have no idea how bad these things are over here!Indeed, the whole hen/stag thing is ridiculous. Some of the better bars and clubs ban them over here already.

[leekohler]

I dunno. I'll ask around. And I sometimes pick up the free papers at the Queens Head, my gay local. I haven't been out clubbing for a long time so I'm not sure what general door policies might be at the mo over here.

Anyway, I'm in complete support of this idea. Hen nights (as they're called over here) can be a horrible crowd.

Well now- this is very interesting. I wonder what this is all about culturally? We all know men are pigs, but I have to honestly say- I don't get this at all.

[OllyW]

Round here the annoyance in compounded by the horrendous screechy Welsh Valleys accents...

It's not improved when you substitute it for a Black Country accent. :eek:

[steveza]

It's not improved when you substitute it for a Black Country accent. :eek:Been out in Liverpool lately? :):eek:

[bartelby]

It's not improved when you substitute it for a Black Country accent. :eek:

Yes. I can imagine... :)

[chrmjenkins]

It's a sad introspective into the state of marriage in this country that people would go to an establishment, gratuitously engage in lewd public behavior while simultaneously flaunting their ability to enter a supposed faithful, monogamous relationship.

[freeny]

If I want my a** grabbed by a straight woman I'll go to a straight bar

Does that really work? :eek:
Note to myself...

[leekohler]

Does that really work? :eek:
Note to myself...

Of course it does. Are you kidding?

[joepunk]

I'll go along with the right of a gay bar owner to ban bachelorette parties

Perhaps there could be an exception. How about no banning on bachelorettes who make a sizeable donation to a gay organization or two fighting for marriage equality—and show up with a receipt to prove it.

[stevento]

People coming to a bar/nightclub in order to have a good time with strippers, how rude!

[TuffLuffJimmy]

People coming to a bar/nightclub in order to have a good time with strippers, how rude!

gay bar patrons aren't strippers...

well they might be professionally, but not in their free time

[Eanair]

Mayhaps it's just me, but I don't know why anyone would think it was appropriate or acceptable to go celebrate getting married at a gay bar where the people there are unable to get married... :(

I just think that would be a great slap in the face to everyone at the gay bar.

EDIT: And yes, I agree with other posts here. I've been in pubs where I've witnessed bachelorette parties...and I'm at a loss of words. I just. I can't... They're something else.

The bachelorette parties I've been to have usually been at someone's house and we end up watching girly flicks and make our own pina coladas.

[leekohler]

People coming to a bar/nightclub in order to have a good time with strippers, how rude!

It took you all day! Wow- and here I thought this could stay civilized. Why don't you read the thread and see what the objections are, stevento? They're legitimate. Women are always welcome. Bachelorette parties are an entirely different matter. They have become rude and disrespectful to the regular patrons on Halsted Street. We are not a bunch of zoo animals to be gawked at, abused, and ridiculed.

[mkrishnan]

Perhaps there could be an exception. How about no banning on bachelorettes who make a sizeable donation to a gay organization or two fighting for marriage equality—and show up with a receipt to prove it.

It seems like the boorishness / unwanted sexual advances are just as bad... it would send entirely the wrong message if it were, "You can come and grope the gay guys as long as you pay for it." ;)

[Rt&Dzine]

Can't any bar owner refuse to host bachelorette parties? The gay bar owner is perhaps more interested in making a statement, which makes sense ... as many people still don't see the injustice.

[Eanair]

Can't any bar owner refuse to host bachelorette parties? The gay bar owner is perhaps more interested in making a statement, which makes sense ... as many people still don't see the injustice.

I don't know for sure, but I don't see why not.

If the bar has worries that wild bachelorette parties could potentially drive off business, or create quite a stir, or are significantly disruptive, I don't see why a bar owner couldn't be able to institute a policy of not hosting such parties.

[FreeState]

I dont have a problem with them being banned - as long as all similar parties are banned (i.e. Bachelor parties). Actually under California Law you would have to outlaw all parties celebrating a marriage of any gender - then it would be legal (CA law dictates that services must be offered to all regardless of sexual orientation or sex, so if a bar offered bachelor parties they must offer bachelorette parties etc.).

The articles from Chicago so Im sure the laws are different there.

[iJohnHenry]

OK- I gotta say, I think it's fine to ban them. It's become far too common lately and very annoying. No one's saying straight people aren't allowed. We like you guys. But bachelorette parties get really obnoxious. If I want my a** grabbed by a straight woman I'll go to a straight bar (and yes, it happens). Please read the article and discuss.

What's this?? Mr. Equality-Under-The-Law??? :eek:

I posted it specifically for you, Lee. :) I think it's a reasonable policy... more power to them.

You are a bad person. ;)

[leekohler]

What's this?? Mr. Equality-Under-The-Law??? :eek:


For Christ sake- read the rest of the thread. No one's banning women- don't even try to make it about that. :mad:

[iJohnHenry]

I read it Son.

What constitutes a bachelorette party? Is that defined in the Constitution.

If they want to limit their patrons in that manner, let them become a private club. It would seem that's what they want anyway.

[leekohler]

I read it Son.

What constitutes a bachelorette party? Is that defined in the Constitution.

If they want to limit their patrons in that manner, let them become a private club. It would seem that's what they want anyway.

You've got to be joking. Wow. They aren't limiting their patrons, they're limiting what events can go on in their bar. That is their right.

And I'm not your son.

[iJohnHenry]

You've got to be joking. Wow. They aren't limiting their patrons, their limiting what can go on in their bar. That is their right.

And I'm not your son.

Any groping is covered by Assault & Battery. Let the Gays so abused press charges. People get hammered in bars. It should not be a shock to you that some of them are women.

And I agree with the son part.

[Shivetya]

We call them Hen parties over here and yeah they can be irritating as hell. A hen party can turn a perfectly nice normal girl into a loud irritating horn dog nympho slag.

and I thought that was what wedding rings were for. :eek:

[Tomorrow]

Well, the bachelorette parties in particular just turn into a bunch of drunk girls groping every guy they see, and even coming onto us pretty strongly, which gets damn annoying.

Very ironic considering why they SAY they're going to the gay bars in the first place.

My favorite is when they get all aggressive and go, "Why don't you like girls?! Are you afraid of girls?!", while they shove their hands down your pants. It can get a lot more gross than that.

Wow...sounds like I could stand to pretend to be gay next time I go out ;) j/k

Why should I have to feel uncomfortable in a gay bar?

Okay, heck has frozen over - a gay man feels uncomfortable in a gay bar, and I don't. :p

You have no idea how bad these things are over here!

Aah, last month when we went out for my birthday party there was also a bachelorette party in the same place. And yes, they were unnecessarily loud and obnoxious, and I think as time wore on drinks started spilling.

Alas, none of them tried to grope me - but hey, my party was me, my wife, and four other women :D

[leekohler]

Any groping is covered by Assault & Battery. Let the Gays so abused press charges. People get hammered in bars. It should not be a shock to you that some of them are women.

And I agree with the son part.

There are plenty of women in gay bars, and they're welcome. The bone of contention is bachelorette parties-women who have no respect for the bars they're in or the people who go to them, that's all.

[leekohler]

Very ironic considering why they SAY they're going to the gay bars in the first place.

Right?



Wow...sounds like I could stand to pretend to be gay next time I go out ;) j/k

I have gotten plenty of straight friends ladies in gay bars.

Okay, heck has frozen over - a gay man feels uncomfortable in a gay bar, and I don't. :p

Which is wrong, given the s*** we put up with daily.

[EricNau]

What constitutes a bachelorette party?
I see the dilemma. How do you determine an official bachelorette party from a group of women celebrating?

I can appreciate that the bar may no longer host or provide for bachelorette parties, but how can they prevent a group of women from celebrating a bachelorette party at their establishment?

It'd be like trying to ban birthday parties at a sports bar, no?

[Jpoon]

The lack consideration from some people, is just astounding. Not that I expected for people on the internet to be any less ignorant than the people I have to interact with on a daily basis.

[leekohler]

I see the dilemma. How do you determine an official bachelorette party from a group of women celebrating?

I can appreciate that the bar may no longer host or provide for bachelorette parties, but how can they prevent a group of women from celebrating a bachelorette party at their establishment?

It'd be like trying to ban birthday parties at a sports bar, no?

If no one can figure what a bachelorette party is- we're all in trouble. The bar in question is about the size of a large apartment- about 2000 square feet. It's very obvious if there's a bachelorette party going on.

[thebassoonist]

OK- I gotta say, I think it's fine to ban them. It's become far too common lately and very annoying. No one's saying straight people aren't allowed. We like you guys. But bachelorette parties get really obnoxious. If I want my a** grabbed by a straight woman I'll go to a straight bar (and yes, it happens). Please read the article and discuss.


I agree with you, Lee. I think it is just plain inconsiderate to have a bachelorette party at a gay bar. And to be honest, I don't see why a straight woman would want to have her (or her friends') party at a gay bar... why not just a straight bar or club?? Isn't the point of a bachelorette or bachelor party to get a little lovin' before you're wed?

[leekohler]

I agree with you, Lee. I think it is just plain inconsiderate to have a bachelorette party at a gay bar. And to be honest, I don't see why a straight woman would want to have her (or her friends') party at a gay bar... why not just a straight bar or club?? Isn't the point of a bachelorette or bachelor party to get a little lovin' before you're wed?

One would think. And given the actions of a lot them, you have to wonder WTF they're thinking.

[Tomorrow]

It'd be like trying to ban birthday parties at a sports bar, no?

I suppose so, but even then, isn't that up to the owner of the sports bar? You might not know immediately that it's a bachelorette (or birthday) party, but it becomes obvious soon enough. And management can ask patrons to leave at their discretion.

Isn't the point of a bachelorette or bachelor party to get a little lovin' before you're wed?

I thought so, but if you check out some of Lee's comments, it sounds like some of these women ARE trying to get some lovin' - even if it's from the gay clientele.

I chuckle inside whenever I hear of someone trying to "convert" a gay person, and usually it's some guy thinking he's man enough to convince a lesbian to "go straight." It's one thing to enjoy a challenge; it's another thing altogether to try to run through a mountain headfirst.

[EricNau]

If no one can figure what a bachelorette party is- we're all in trouble. The bar in question is about the size of a large apartment- about 2000 square feet. It's very obvious if there's a bachelorette party going on.
I was probably expecting a smaller party in a larger bar.

In any case, I suppose enforcement shouldn't be an issue; if the bar posts a sign prohibiting bachelorette parties, I would expect most to obey it, and those parties that don't would probably be smaller and less problematic.

[No1451]

I don't even see why this should be a point of contention, a business has the right to refuse service and this is really no different in my eyes.

@leek: Sigh, you're gay and you could still probably pick up a chick with more ease than me:p. The world is a truly strange place.

[thebassoonist]

I don't even see why this should be a point of contention, a business has the right to refuse service and this is really no different in my eyes.

@leek: Sigh, you're gay and you could still probably pick up a chick with more ease than me:p. The world is a truly strange place.

21/M? Into Macs? I'm interested. :p

[leekohler]

I chuckle inside whenever I hear of someone trying to "convert" a gay person, and usually it's some guy thinking he's man enough to convince a lesbian to "go straight." It's one thing to enjoy a challenge; it's another thing altogether to try to run through a mountain headfirst.

You just hit the nail on the head, man. That crap used to happen to me in Ohio a lot. It's completely rude, but most of the bars were straight, so I put up with it. I'm not about to put up with it in a gay bar in Chicago.

[blackfox]

I'm not really sure how I feel about this.

On one hand, if a particular group (bachelorette or otherwise) are being disruptive or inconsiderate, it is perfectly reasonable for the bar to eject the offenders. Working in (and going to) bars, I see (and am party to) this all the time. Sure, it can be dramatic and awkward at times, but there are de-facto rules for being out in a public venue and drinking. Right? Could this situation not be addressed per incident with a brief conversation?

OTOH, As a straight man, I can't really put myself in the appropriate shoes with regards to being harassed in these specific circumstances, nor have I had a right which I don't have flaunted in my face (however unintentional). So, barring any legal issues, I have to side with the proprietors' judgement(s) here.

Still, and I hope I am not trivializing anything, but in my experience you go to a bar with the knowledge that you may have to put up with some ************, as there are always douchebags and morons, and there are always people who drink too much and create drama - it just goes with the territory.

[leekohler]

I'm not really sure how I feel about this.

On one hand, if a particular group (bachelorette or otherwise) are being disruptive or inconsiderate, it is perfectly reasonable for the bar to eject the offenders. Working in (and going to) bars, I see (and am party to) this all the time. Sure, it can be dramatic and awkward at times, but there are de-facto rules for being out in a public venue and drinking. Right? Could this situation not be addressed per incident with a brief conversation?

OTOH, As a straight man, I can't really put myself in the appropriate shoes with regards to being harassed in these specific circumstances, nor have I had a right which I don't have flaunted in my face (however unintentional). So, barring any legal issues, I have to side with the proprietors' judgement(s) here.

Still, and I hope I am not trivializing anything, but in my experience you go to a bar with the knowledge that you may have to put up with some ************, as there are always douchebags and morons, and there are always people who drink too much and create drama - it just goes with the territory.

I don't know. If we kicked them out, I think we'd end up with the same complaining then. Trust me, these things affect business in a very bad way- especially in a space that small. Us guys see that going on and we won't even go in- we know what to expect.

[blackfox]

I don't know. If we kicked them out, I think we'd end up with the same complaining then. Trust me, these things affect business in a very bad way- especially in a space that small. Us guys see that going on and we won't even go in- we know what to expect.

Fair enough. Like I said, in circumstances like this, I defer to those directly involved - namely the regular patrons and proprietors of these places.

Next time I'm in Chicago, you'll have to show me around these places, so I can make a more informed judgement...besides, I've always had a blast all the times I've gone to gay bars - and met some great people (even a few dates)*

* women, though it wasn't for lack of trying on some of the mens' part...

[iBlue]

As much as I don't like the whole punish everyone for the stupidity of some methodology, I can understand a ban. Hen nights/bachelorette parties can be the most tacky disgusting obnoxious things ever. I can't put my finger on it but there is something that strikes me as especially rude about taking this behaviour to a gay bar.

[Prof.]

@leek: Sigh, you're gay and you could still probably pick up a chick with more ease than me:p. The world is a truly strange place.
Referring to a girl/women as a "chick" is your first mistake. ;)

[mkrishnan]

I can't put my finger on it but...

See, now, the fact that you do not put your finger on it makes you quite a bit less rude than the women in question. :D

(And an aside on the having fun at gay bars, the easily most fun dance club in Gainesville was also the primary / only (?) gay place. It was dominated by gay men but had a strong lesbian and bisexual turnout and was very friendly to heterosexuals. I've had a great time there with people of every orientation.

[leekohler]

As much as I don't like the whole punish everyone for the stupidity of some methodology, I can understand a ban. Hen nights/bachelorette parties can be the most tacky disgusting obnoxious things ever. I can't put my finger on it but there is something that strikes me as especially rude about taking this behaviour to a gay bar.

Let's put this another way- given the behavior were the same, would anyone have a problem with lesbian bars banning straight male bachelor parties?

[iBlue]

Let's put this another way- given the behavior were the same, would anyone have a problem with lesbian bars banning straight male bachelor parties?

Ah, maybe you have found what I couldn't put my finger on. (:D) No, I don't think I'd hesitate for a moment.

Though arguably lesbian women may make it a lot less fun for the males. Generally speaking I would think that gay men may be a bit more tolerant of straight women being idiots, versus how tolerant gay women would be of straight men being idiots. Perhaps this is because the unwanted behaviour may come across slightly more intimidating coming from a man.

Doesn't make it right though in either situation. I think unwanted advances like that are just out of order, full stop.

[leekohler]

Ah, maybe you have found what I couldn't put my finger on. (:D) No, I don't think I'd hesitate for a moment.

Though arguably lesbian women may make it a lot less fun for the males. Generally speaking I would think that gay men may be a bit more tolerant of straight women being idiots, versus how tolerant gay women would be of straight men being idiots. Perhaps this is because the unwanted behaviour may come across slightly more intimidating coming from a man.

Doesn't make it right though in either situation. I think unwanted advances like that are just out of order, full stop.

Lesbians would beat the crap out of straight guys if they pulled what these women pull in gay bars.

And again- we like straight folks to show up, it's fun. But it really isn't the appropriate place for a bachelorette party.

[arkitect]

Lesbians would beat the crap out of straight guys if they pulled what these women pull in gay bars.

True.
I also suspect that most stag night parties wouldn't have the cojones to walk into a lesbian bar… :p

Mind you, a posse of girls in full-on hen night mode is a scary sight. When I see those little pink cowboy hats coming I cross the road. :o

[Tomorrow]

Referring to a girl/women as a "chick" is your first mistake. ;)

Exactly. Most broads hate being called disrespectful names like that :p (I know, I know, I couldn't resist...sorry!)

Let's put this another way- given the behavior were the same, would anyone have a problem with lesbian bars banning straight male bachelor parties?

<snip>

Lesbians would beat the crap out of straight guys if they pulled what these women pull in gay bars.

I also suspect that most stag night parties wouldn't have the cojones to walk into a lesbian bar… :p

This brings up an interesting perspective - if I were going to a bachelor party, then I think both of the following would apply:

(1) I would much prefer to be surrounded by straight women rather than gay women - not hatin', just sayin'.

(2) I think I would feel more welcome just about anywhere else, including Chuck E. Cheese's, than at a bar full of lesbians.

[jackiecanev2]

Maybe this is because I live south of the Mason-Dixon line, where gay marriage seems to be a long way off...

I've worked in a gay bar/nightclub since I was 18. I'm 24 now, so I've been there for 6.5 years (the money is better than my real job, but thats another story). And no, it's not a small bar... maybe that makes a difference.

We routinely get bachelorette parties, at least a few nights a month. They're some of the most pleasant people to have in the bar, usually excessively drunk but they generally have a good attitude and are just out to have some "wild" fun. They wear crowns and bring their friends and leave their penis-shaped lollipops everywhere. Drag queens have fun with them, tease them and embarrass them and call them out for being straight. We have gays, lesbians, drag queens, transexuals, people who are so confused they they don't even know which way they bend anymore... straight people, swingers, lesbians who used to be men... whatever. Everyone, and their mother. And generally no one cares, because at the end of the day, 95% of the people in the bar are just that: people. People of whatever orientation and gender that want to go out with their friends and have a few cocktails, shoot some pool, and shove a dollar in the g-string of a hot drag queen. It's stereotypical to think that man-hating lesbians beat up on men that hit on them, and queeny gay boys are so flamingly homosexual that they queen out every chance they get. It doesn't really happen like that. I mean, it does. But it's few and far between.

The only people we really don't like are the sloshed jerks with the .22 BAC who start fights and throw up on the carpet.

As for the bar owner who thinks it's a slap in the face... I disagree. Be appreciative that there are women who are supportive and who want to patronize your business. Obviously they don't have a problem with "the gays" and have nothing to do with lawmakers who decide whether or nor you (and I) will unionize or marry. When they think of having an evening out with the ladies to celebrate their last crazy night in the single world... they are liberal-minded and comfortable enough to choose to spend that evening in a queer bar around a bunch of fag, dykes, and queens and whoever else might be present.

[iBlue]

That is a great post, jackiecanev2.

[Tomorrow]

...at the end of the day, 95% of the people in the bar are just that: people.

I *shudder* to think what the other 5% are. :eek:

[arkitect]

I *shudder* to think what the other 5% are. :eek:

Better not ask or we'll have to tell you…



;)

[mkrishnan]

Better not ask or we'll have to tell you…

There were thirteen models. One was sacrificed. :D

[leekohler]

Maybe this is because I live south of the Mason-Dixon line, where gay marriage seems to be a long way off...

I've worked in a gay bar/nightclub since I was 18. I'm 24 now, so I've been there for 6.5 years (the money is better than my real job, but thats another story). And no, it's not a small bar... maybe that makes a difference.

We routinely get bachelorette parties, at least a few nights a month. They're some of the most pleasant people to have in the bar, usually excessively drunk but they generally have a good attitude and are just out to have some "wild" fun. They wear crowns and bring their friends and leave their penis-shaped lollipops everywhere. Drag queens have fun with them, tease them and embarrass them and call them out for being straight. We have gays, lesbians, drag queens, transexuals, people who are so confused they they don't even know which way they bend anymore... straight people, swingers, lesbians who used to be men... whatever. Everyone, and their mother. And generally no one cares, because at the end of the day, 95% of the people in the bar are just that: people. People of whatever orientation and gender that want to go out with their friends and have a few cocktails, shoot some pool, and shove a dollar in the g-string of a hot drag queen. It's stereotypical to think that man-hating lesbians beat up on men that hit on them, and queeny gay boys are so flamingly homosexual that they queen out every chance they get. It doesn't really happen like that. I mean, it does. But it's few and far between.

The only people we really don't like are the sloshed jerks with the .22 BAC who start fights and throw up on the carpet.

As for the bar owner who thinks it's a slap in the face... I disagree. Be appreciative that there are women who are supportive and who want to patronize your business. Obviously they don't have a problem with "the gays" and have nothing to do with lawmakers who decide whether or nor you (and I) will unionize or marry. When they think of having an evening out with the ladies to celebrate their last crazy night in the single world... they are liberal-minded and comfortable enough to choose to spend that evening in a queer bar around a bunch of fag, dykes, and queens and whoever else might be present.

It's a completely different dynamic here. In the South, no one BUT liberal straight people would go to a gay bar. Here, it's different. You'll end up with women (honestly, I've only seen this with batchelorette parties) who normally would NEVER go to a gay bar. They just go because it's "cool" and there are strippers. We aren't necessarily talking about gay supportive people here. For them, it's more like a trip to the zoo to see the freaks. It's not a positive experience for a lot of us guys. If we're clamoring to avoid them and bars are banning them, that should tell you something.

[mkrishnan]

In the South, no one BUT liberal straight people would go to a gay bar. Here, it's different.

*cough* for the notable exceptions... usual suspects like Gainesville, Birmingham, Alanta, Athens, etc.... ;) I'm sure I wasn't the only liberal straight person there ;) but I'm also sure there were some homos there. :p

[leekohler]

*cough* for the notable exceptions... usual suspects like Gainesville, Birmingham, Alanta, Athens, etc.... ;) I'm sure I wasn't the only liberal straight person there ;) but I'm also sure there were some homos there. :p

Oh stop- you know what I meant. :p

[Blue Velvet]

^ I think this dynamic comes about because perhaps in more rural areas, gay bars might be a 'queer' oasis for everybody. In town, you tend to get more stratified options. I'm usually not comfortable going to bear bars, for instance, and am happy to let them have their own space free from the likes of me asking them to put some loo-paper in the ladies. ;)

[Applespider]

Anyway, I'm in complete support of this idea. Hen nights (as they're called over here) can be a horrible crowd.

I'm going to one in May although thankfully the chief bridesmaid also hates the really tacky dress-up ones so I'm hopeful it will just be a good night out.

Let's put this another way- given the behavior were the same, would anyone have a problem with lesbian bars banning straight male bachelor parties?

Would they want to go? I quite like gay male bars since the scenery tends to be better and they have better music. :D

[leekohler]

Would they want to go? I quite like gay male bars since the scenery tends to be better and they have better music. :D

Perhaps not, but the comparison is valid.

[mkrishnan]

Perhaps not, but the comparison is valid.

I think so too, although as Applespider pointed out, the problem doesn't actually exist, because I think that even straight men know that no good could possibly come of them taking their bachelor party to a lesbo bar. :p

But it's always a good principle to examine the role of sexism in things by testing the reverse case out. I learned that from Gloria Steinem and abuse it regularly. :eek: ;)

[Applespider]

I think the issue is inappropriate behaviour of bachelorettes who do get into the mindset that they are the most important people in the bar (gay or straight) and need to be the centre of attention while believing they're god's gift to the world and no-one else has ever been married before. <shudder>

If it was a group of girls dancing amongst themselves without veils and horns, not advertising the 'hen' aspect and not acting like lechers, then there shouldn't be any more problem than any group of women in the bar.

Still, I can see why people would feel they're flaunting their ability to marry in appropriately. But unfortunately, there's a bigger issue that we need to resolve to make that go away.

[maestro55]

I haven't been to very many bars (underage till June) and have not been to any gay bars. However, I have a friend that suggested I go meet women in Gay Bars. That is where he met his girlfriend. I don't understand why you would go to a gay bar to pick up women. I certainly understand why women would *want* to have a Bachelorette party at a gay bar but will agree that if they are getting out of hand than they should be asked to leave and if they are all getting out of hand than they should be banned.

[leekohler]

I think the issue is inappropriate behaviour of bachelorettes who do get into the mindset that they are the most important people in the bar (gay or straight) and need to be the centre of attention while believing they're god's gift to the world and no-one else has ever been married before. <shudder>

If it was a group of girls dancing amongst themselves without veils and horns, not advertising the 'hen' aspect and not acting like lechers, then there shouldn't be any more problem than any group of women in the bar.

And I would agree with you.

[Tomorrow]

...if they are getting out of hand than they should be asked to leave and if they are all getting out of hand than they should be banned.

I agree with this part, and as it applies to any other types of parties or patrons that show an undesirable pattern of behavior like this.

Logic like this makes it easy to see how you could extend the ban to straight bars, as well. I've been out a few times to straight bars in the presence of one or more bachelorette parties, and some of them can indeed get pretty rowdy.

[jackiecanev2]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (Danger hiptop 4.7; U; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050920)

Ok, I'm not that far south, nor rural. Virginia Beach. It's not exactly a liberal haven, but VA went blue for the first time since Kennedy and high schools have OUT alliances.

I suppose I see this in the light of every other gay issue: gay people are people, straight people are people. Whether you agree or not, everyone can live and let live. Tolerate the drunk bachelorettes who enjoy the novelty of drag queens, and maybe some straight people will tolerate your mad raving vogue dance when the dj at the straight bar plays a britney spears remix. I'm not a fan of the bear swingers group that comes in, or the pink essence geriatric transexual group... but it is what it is. They're just people. I'm sure a conservative woman is much more intimidated in an unfamiliar gay bar than a gay boy.

I personally have never been made to feel uncomfortable by heterosexuals in predominantly heterosexual places during heterosexual activities (bachelor parties, girls night out, etc) and maybe its because I am of a younger generation. I prefer to extend the openness, and welcome people in rather than segregate them away from my stomping grounds because they're mine. We expect tolerance and diversity but it seems that we are sensitive, at times too much, and we get our toes stepped on by happy heteros embarking on the wonderful/abysmal journey that is marriage. The problem isn't birthday parties or graduation parties or guys night out, its the marriage aspect. And in that right, it's selfish.

It is human nature to want, but we choose to be resentful. Isn't it simply easier to be happy for someone for what they are experiencing?

[Fiveos22]

Personally, I find it funny that so many bachelorette parties go to gay bars, where they'll "feel safe" away from all of us predatory straight men...only to cause typical drunk girl stunts that would only fly if you were at least remotely into that.

To be honest, I could take some of that ass grabbing off of your hands if you'd like...send 'em to my bar.

[leekohler]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (Danger hiptop 4.7; U; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050920)

Ok, I'm not that far south, nor rural. Virginia Beach. It's not exactly a liberal haven, but VA went blue for the first time since Kennedy and high schools have OUT alliances.

I suppose I see this in the light of every other gay issue: gay people are people, straight people are people. Whether you agree or not, everyone can live and let live. Tolerate the drunk bachelorettes who enjoy the novelty of drag queens, and maybe some straight people will tolerate your mad raving vogue dance when the dj at the straight bar plays a britney spears remix. I'm not a fan of the bear swingers group that comes in, or the pink essence geriatric transexual group... but it is what it is. They're just people. I'm sure a conservative woman is much more intimidated in an unfamiliar gay bar than a gay boy.

I personally have never been made to feel uncomfortable by heterosexuals in predominantly heterosexual places during heterosexual activities (bachelor parties, girls night out, etc) and maybe its because I am of a younger generation. I prefer to extend the openness, and welcome people in rather than segregate them away from my stomping grounds because they're mine. We expect tolerance and diversity but it seems that we are sensitive, at times too much, and we get our toes stepped on by happy heteros embarking on the wonderful/abysmal journey that is marriage. The problem isn't birthday parties or graduation parties or guys night out, its the marriage aspect. And in that right, it's selfish.

It is human nature to want, but we choose to be resentful. Isn't it simply easier to be happy for someone for what they are experiencing?

Excuse me- stop making this out to be some sort of "tolerance" issue, it's not. We gay people get harassed enough as it is. I don't think it's too much to ask to have places where we don't get harassed, especially when we started the businesses ourselves for that very purpose! Gay bars exist so we have safe places to go.

Straight women are more than welcome. However, bachelorette parties are a very specific event where straight women are focusing their attention on men- and the sexual aspect of men only. I don't feel it's my duty to submit myself to sexual harassment by these women. Don't make this out to be some sort of discrimination issue- it's not. Like I said before- if straight men were having bachelor parties in lesbian bars and behaving this way, no one would say one damn thing if they banned them. This is no different.

Your "novelty of drag queens" comment was very telling. This is the exact attitude I'm talking about. We gay people are not "novelties" or circus freaks who exist to amuse straight people. We're human beings. If straight people come to our bars, they need to treat us with the same respect they would treat others. Otherwise, please stay away.

[chrmjenkins]

Your "novelty of drag queens" comment was very telling. This is the exact attitude I'm talking about. We gay people are not "novelties" or circus freaks who exist to amuse straight people. We're human beings. If straight people come to our bars, they need to treat us with the same respect they would treat others. Otherwise, please stay away.

I think you're reading too much into his comment. It's completely possible he meant having fun with, and not making fun of. Drag shows were a huge hit at my college, and many of the students have never seen them before. I never saw anything to indicate the students thought they were freaks or worthy of contempt.

[leekohler]

I think you're reading too much into his comment. It's completely possible he meant having fun with, and not making fun of. Drag shows were a huge hit at my college, and many of the students have never seen them before. I never saw anything to indicate the students thought they were freaks or worthy of contempt.

And again- I'm talking about a specific event, bachelorette parties, not random people going to see a drag show. I didn't read anything into it- I more than adequately qualified my post.

[No1451]

Bah @ guy Leek quoted

This is NOT about tolerance or anything even remotely like that, this is a business refusing service on sound business grounds, those being that these sorts of events cause clientele to not frequent the bar as much. Businesses have a right to refuse service and this is no different. It's not them being intolerant, it's them distancing themselves from possible harassment and loss of business.

I imagine if I went into Future Shop and started groping customers I would be removed very quickly and likely never allowed back, why should a bar be any different?

@leek: Do you really face all that much of a *****torm? I have no idea how it might be, I've never understood the whole "hate the gays" mentality.

[leekohler]

@leek: Do you really face all that much of a *****torm? I have no idea how it might be, I've never understood the whole "hate the gays" mentality.

From bachelorette parties, yes. The weird thing is that you would think that these women would at least like us if they're coming to our bars. Most of the time, they don't even know one guy in the bar. It's just their group of girls, and that's it. They get drunk and think it's our duty to amuse them. When we refuse, they get aggressive. It's the very thing they hate about straight men. Rather ironic, don't you think?

As far as other things go- if you read the paper daily, there's almost always someone saying something negative about us. Watch TV and you see it even more. Work is another place many people hear nasty comments every day. Don't even get me started on how prevalent homophobia is on the internet.

Just listen to people in a cafe or on the bus or train- this or that is "gay", so-and-so is a "fag", etc. It's everywhere.