CNN Polls / Lack of historical knowledge

[idkew]

So, I look at CNN.com on a daily basis usually. Today's poll is "Are the U.S. and coalition casualty figures in Iraq higher than you expected?" (http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/10228.content.html)

Now, this really bothers me that most people believe there has been more than expected casualties. I can only hope people have voted this way because they thought that Iraq would be an "easy out". Otherwise, people need to read more history.

This poll was not about whether you believe we should be there or not, so lets try and keep that out of this thread. What I am ranting about is the lack of historical knowledge most americans, and probably other people, contain.

Is it really that obscure that the taking of Berlin took the lives of 100,000 russians? Do people just try to forget this? Yes, we have lost some people in the occupation of Iraq, but this is war folks, and unfortunately, in war, people die.

The world has lost 500 or so coalition troops. I for one, think this is a low number, and I am happy about how low casualties have been. It could be a lot worse. I am not happy that people have had to die, but if this will happen, the lower the number, the better.

I just wish that the media, and stupid americans would realize that this occupation and transfer of power is not an easy task to accomplish. It seems everyone is calling for a miracle, and they seem astonished that no miracle has occurred.

We are entering the age of decadence. Soon will be the fall, not because of others, but because of our stupid citizens.

[zimv20]

expectations were not properly managed. i think the poll results are a direct result of bush et. al. saying the iraqis would be welcoming, w/ flowers even.

not _everyone_ bought that, of course. i'm surprised that the number of american dead is as low as it is. of course, once you count casualties (i'm not certain the pentagon is publishing that number), then it starts looking like a real war.

[IJ Reilly]

Let us also not forget Bush's aircraft carrier stunt. If the American people are confused about the Iraq occupation, its purposes, its justification, its timeline, and how much it will cost in dollars and lives, we can point the boney finger at the White House for sowing the seeds of that confusion, and doing it purposefully. At the same time we might ask ourselves how a majority of the American people came to believe that Saddam was responsible for 9-11.

[idkew]

:)

I guess the thought never crossed my mind to *trust* the government.

[takao]

i have to agree on your post .. many people just have forgotten how terrible war can get:
"the european hiroshima" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II)

"3,907 tons of bombs were dropped. Out of 28,410 houses in the inner city of Dresden, 24,866 were destroyed. An area of 15 square kilometers was totally destroyed, among that: 14,000 homes, 72 schools, 22 hospitals, 19 churches, 5 theaters, 50 bank and insurance companies, 31 department stores, 31 large hotels, and 62 administration buildings"

and for losses:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Ypres

[kgarner]

I think a lot of it stems from the media over-stating the precision of our weapons. They talk about "surgical strikes" and people think that we are some kind of military tornado. Able to destroy one building and leaving the other completely untouched. While our weapons are getting more and more precise, there is always going to be casualties in war, and this war has been very light in that department.

[Frohickey]

Not a whole lot of things to destroy over in the Middle East. :p

So we build instead. :eek:

[zimv20]

Not a whole lot of things to destroy over in the Middle East. :p

So we build instead. :eek:
http://www.islamicity.com/Culture/MOSQUES/Jerusalem/DRockin.JPG
http://maps.unomaha.edu/Peterson/funda/Pictures/SaudiaArabia/0015.jpg
http://maps.unomaha.edu/Peterson/funda/Pictures/SaudiaArabia/0001.jpg
http://turing.wins.uva.nl/~grunberg/photos/may-2001/pics/abbas-castle.jpg
http://turing.wins.uva.nl/~grunberg/photos/may-2001/pics/isthar-gate.jpg

yeah, not much at all. let's put in some strip malls.

[diamond geezer]

Russians in WW2?

But I thought the US single handedly saved the World! that certainly tends to be the Hollywood portrayal.

I've just got back from London, there's a bit of a anger over the new "fact based" Tom Cruise movie, about a US pilot that flew in the Battle of Britain.
Old fliers are worried that it will show the "rag-tag" group of Yanks saving England.

The reality is that the pilot Cruise plays, had zero kills before he was shot down, I wonder if that's how the movie will play out.

Apart from U-571, It's generally Mel Gobson movies that under the guise of fact have twisted the truth, for a bit of Brit-bashing (The Patriot & the Scottish movie, whose name eludes me).

[idkew]

Apart from U-571, It's generally Mel Gobson movies that under the guise of fact have twisted the truth, for a bit of Brit-bashing (The Patriot & the Scottish movie, whose name eludes me).

Braveheart maybe?


anyway- if you believe what is in hollywood movies, you have no right to be mad that you were misled. these movies are made for entertainment, not education. facts are changed to make the movie more entertaining.

one more reason we are in our age of decadence. we get our "history" from pop culture.

[Frohickey]

[IMG]yeah, not much at all. let's put in some strip malls.

I don't see wheelchair ramps in those buildings. :eek: ;)

How much new construction is there?

By now, I would have expected them to have paved over the Sahara Desert, and it should be littered with casinos filled with slot machines, and all you can eat buffets. :D

[mactastic]

Not a whole lot of things to destroy over in the Middle East. :p

So we build instead. :eek:

Wow, more blatant racism from Frohickey... Nice going. How about some more of those French jokes? Got any about Jews?

[Frohickey]

Wow, more blatant racism from Frohickey... Nice going. How about some more of those French jokes? Got any about Jews?

Racism? You have to do better than that. Please counter arguments with other argument and not personal attacks.

As for French jokes and Jewish jokes, you have the power of the Internet at your fingertips, go find your own jokes. :p

Okay, here are a few (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blfrenchjokes.htm), for you Google-impaired folks.

[takao]

nice pictures zimv20: i really hope the things plundered from the baghdad museum get found or are brought back
(and yeah and hope when the country is peacefull they even bring back the original parts of the ishtar gate and other historic elements which are in london/berlin since more than 80 years now)

oh just to remind you it could be worse:
we all can be happy that the US Air Force doesn't have the guys which make the maps for CNN to be responsible for their cruise missiles

[idkew]

Racism? You have to do better than that. Please counter arguments with other argument and not personal attacks.

As for French jokes and Jewish jokes, you have the power of the Internet at your fingertips, go find your own jokes. :p

Okay, here are a few (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blfrenchjokes.htm), for you Google-impaired folks.


what about the french-jew jokes?

[pseudobrit]

Not a whole lot of things to destroy over in the Middle East. :p

So we build instead. :eek:

Yup, all sand and tents and camels. No suburbs or streets or anything like a civilisation.

[mactastic]

Racism? You have to do better than that. Please counter arguments with other argument and not personal attacks.



Lol, sorry did I hurt your feeling? :(

And come off it, you've said more than a few completely racially insensitive things around here. Insinuating that MIddle Easterners have nothing of value to blow up is just another in a long line of these kinds of things from you. :mad:

[Frohickey]

Lol, sorry did I hurt your feeling? :(

And come off it, you've said more than a few completely racially insensitive things around here. Insinuating that MIddle Easterners have nothing of value to blow up is just another in a long line of these kinds of things from you. :mad:

Never said they have nothing of value. Said that there is not many.
Racially insensitive... if a factual comment is racially insensitive, just the basis of it being fact should mandate that it be said. Racially insensitive is inconsequential. Facts are supreme.

With the amount of natural resources under the sands, and the wealth it brings, why is the ME still considered part of the 3rd world? Maybe extra-religious people are just not that fond of worldly conveniences.

[mactastic]

Never said they have nothing of value. Said that there is not many.

You said there was 'not a whole lot of things to destroy' over there. That is either total ignorance of their rich cultural heritage, or it is racist BS. Which do you plead?

Racially insensitive... if a factual comment is racially insensitive, just the basis of it being fact should mandate that it be said. Racially insensitive is inconsequential. Facts are supreme.

Sure, if what you said was even close to accurate. But it wasn't. Of course maybe you could 'prove' there is nothing there! :eek: What do you think, the Middle East is all sand and camels? It's not like the Tigris and Euphrates valley was the cradle of civilization or anything. No, they don't have anything over there to destroy, do they?

With the amount of natural resources under the sands, and the wealth it brings, why is the ME still considered part of the 3rd world? Maybe extra-religious people are just not that fond of worldly conveniences.
Dunno. Go ask Jim Baker or Pat Robertson. Maybe they can enlighten you here.

[Frohickey]

You said there was 'not a whole lot of things to destroy' over there. That is either total ignorance of their rich cultural heritage, or it is racist BS. Which do you plead?

Sure, if what you said was even close to accurate. But it wasn't. Of course maybe you could 'prove' there is nothing there! :eek: What do you think, the Middle East is all sand and camels? It's not like the Tigris and Euphrates valley was the cradle of civilization or anything. No, they don't have anything over there to destroy, do they?

Dunno. Go ask Jim Baker or Pat Robertson. Maybe they can enlighten you here.

Yes. Rich cultural heritage. Since the late 600AD. After 14 centuries, you would expect some type of cultural heritage. They were responsible for saving a lot of christian works by translating them into Arabic. [url=http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/980408/1998040840.html]Baghdad is the site of the 'college of translation'.[/url[ These are all past accomplishments, and contributed to the world as a whole. But the decendants of these people have not contributed as much as their ancestors.

On the one hand, you seem to support arabic culture with lot of religious extremists. On the other hand, you seem to denigrate western culture with a few religious extremists. Do you support state religion, as Osama/al qaeda and the taliban do?

Weird. Saw a "Defend Abortion Rights" poster in the Wash,DC anti-Iraq war protest. Abortions are forbidden by Sharia law.

A little consistency would be nice.

[Frohickey]

I heard somewhere that the Madrassas (sp?) religious schools are where all of these extremist teachings are put forth to the students. Since these schools are free, while universities that teach math/science/etc cost money, most poor muslim parents send their children to these religious schools instead.

Sounds like the Arab world needs an accreditation body for all schools of higher learning. Maybe they can pattern it after the federal "Leave no child behind" program. :p

[mactastic]

Yes. Rich cultural heritage. Since the late 600AD. After 14 centuries, you would expect some type of cultural heritage. They were responsible for saving a lot of christian works by translating them into Arabic. [url=http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/980408/1998040840.html]Baghdad is the site of the 'college of translation'.[/url[ These are all past accomplishments, and contributed to the world as a whole. But the decendants of these people have not contributed as much as their ancestors.

BS. Or do you think the descendants of our founding fathers have not contributed as much too?

BTW, ever heard of Zaha Hadid?

On the one hand, you seem to support arabic culture with lot of religious extremists. On the other hand, you seem to denigrate western culture with a few religious extremists. Do you support state religion, as Osama/al qaeda and the taliban do?

Nice misdirection attempt. This is about you making ridiculous claims about a culture you seem not to understand and have much contempt for. Have you EVER heard me support state religion? Didn't think so.

Weird. Saw a "Defend Abortion Rights" poster in the Wash,DC anti-Iraq war protest. Abortions are forbidden by Sharia law.

A little consistency would be nice.

Ok, so you try to put words from a protester in my mouth, then ask me for consistency? How does that work?

[takao]

Never said they have nothing of value. Said that there is not many.

was new york,berlin,london or paris mentioned in the bible ?
nope thats the middle east, as example babylon is mention multiply times

was the US the birth place of 3+ world-wide-religions ?
surprise,surprise ! it's the middle east !!

who used as first written language _without_ symbols ? and where ?
sumerians, and they lived where right between euphrat and tigris,now iraq

first written laws ?
middle east, "Codex hammurabi" ~1500 before christ in ...babylon (i guess you know the sentence: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"

first use of iron ?
again the middle east, Hethits in norther iraq,turkey

who decides what has value and what has not ? you ?

Yes. Rich cultural heritage. Since the late 600AD. After 14 centuries, you would expect some type of cultural heritage

america was discovered 1492 by accident (well the native americans where there but we all know what happend to them) that's 512 years
the USA exist since 1776..that's 228 years

the ishtar gate in babylon is 2566 years old
2566 years ago most ancestors from US citizents lived in northern or eastern europe, wearing furs,fighting bears and living in tents (generalizing and over dramatic, but i guess correct for most people with indo-germanic roots)

and 600 anno domine (which translate into "year of the lord"
our ancestors are still wearing furs(and finally the first boots),fighting not only bears but each others (but with better weapons of course) and finally starting to build real houses from stone (when we are not fighting those evil terrorist-bears of course)
...

just because many things are lying in ruins or are old doesn't mean it hasn't any value or are not a culture heritage...

i can find more _private_ houses here that are older than the USA (1776) in 15 minutes than i have fingers to count them
give me 1 hour and i do the same with houses older than 500 years
give me 1 hour and a car and i show you ruins of brigantium (roman city founded in the fur-wearing days) and roman roads 4 times older than the USA , 5-6 castles (ruins sadly) of the local knights and everything in 10-20 miles distance (and if you want i can show you the one of the first fully electrofied house from the 19th century, one of the first _long_ telephone lines of europe, and some of the first hydro-electric powerplants)

and where do i live ? someplace where lot of important things happend in the past ? near a big urban area ?
no i'm living in a small town with 40.000 people, 3 20.000 people neighbour towns, and 4-5 5000 people towns
the highest buildings are churches,with enourmous 50-75 meter for the towers

just imagine a american suburban region with less cars (hardly SUVs),better train and bus system,sometimes cattle on the streets, add more olderand different looking houses, add some non air-polluting industrie complexes, a shopping mall & cinema and tadaaa ! extremly boring city where nothing exiting happens...

throw a stone in the middle east .. dig out a 10 meter hole in the ground and i bet you find something historical interesting thing (and watch out when throwing the stone .. you might start some wars ;) )

offtopic i think i start a thread in the pictures section about "where do MR-members live (with pictures)"

[Frohickey]

BS. Or do you think the descendants of our founding fathers have not contributed as much too?

BTW, ever heard of Zaha Hadid?

Nice misdirection attempt. This is about you making ridiculous claims about a culture you seem not to understand and have much contempt for. Have you EVER heard me support state religion? Didn't think so.

Ok, so you try to put words from a protester in my mouth, then ask me for consistency? How does that work?

Nope. You don't support state religion, at least, I don't think you would. I also don't think you support banning abortions, or the woman's right to choose. But it does seem that you are supporting a group that supports state religion and banning abortions.

Actually, the only contempt I have are for cultures that have a strong desire to kill me, and annihilate my culture.

[Frohickey]

was new york,berlin,london or paris mentioned in the bible ?
nope thats the middle east, as example babylon is mention multiply times


And Babylon hasn't changed a bit since Biblical times. ;)

[takao]

And Babylon hasn't changed a bit since Biblical times. ;)

for some of them america doesn't look too different from sodom & gomorah either ;)

(and sometimes americans surprise me too with new freaky things even that i like american style fast food from time to time)

BTW: (just came back from memory):guess how many wars have been fought between 2 different countries which both have mcdonalds restaurants?
zero,zip,nada,not a single war...

so it would be quite logical to built imedeatly some macdonalds restaurants everywhere on the world and all wars may stop the next day :rolleyes:

[mactastic]

But it does seem that you are supporting a group that supports state religion and banning abortions.

What group am I 'supporting'? Al Qaeda? Is that what you are saying here? Or are you calling me a supporter of Saddam, or the Taliban? Just what are you suggesting?

And once you finish answering that how about this one, if I support your right to spew foul hatred does that mean I support or agree with what you say?

Actually, the only contempt I have are for cultures that have a strong desire to kill me, and annihilate my culture.

Don't get your cultures mixed up with your extremist groups. It makes you sound like one. Do you suppose over there they tell them that we want to annihilate their culture?

[Frohickey]

What group am I 'supporting'? Al Qaeda? Is that what you are saying here? Or are you calling me a supporter of Saddam, or the Taliban? Just what are you suggesting?

And once you finish answering that how about this one, if I support your right to spew foul hatred does that mean I support or agree with what you say?

Don't get your cultures mixed up with your extremist groups. It makes you sound like one. Do you suppose over there they tell them that we want to annihilate their culture?

Iran, maybe? An American pullout of Iraq prior to the June 30th deadline would turn Iraq into a client state of Iran.

Time for the culture to denounce and clean their house of extremist groups. We are helping them, but they need to help as well.

[mactastic]

Iran, maybe? An American pullout of Iraq prior to the June 30th deadline would turn Iraq into a client state of Iran.

Time for the culture to denounce and clean their house of extremist groups. We are helping them, but they need to help as well.

LOL! You're accusing me of supporting Iran??? Where do you get this stuff?

[pseudobrit]

Time for the culture to denounce and clean their house of extremist groups. We are helping them, but they need to help as well.

I think we need help getting rid of our extremists too.

[Frohickey]

I think we need help getting rid of our extremists too.

I think we should start with the eco-terrorists from ELF and animal rights terrorists from ALF.

[Frohickey]

LOL! You're accusing me of supporting Iran??? Where do you get this stuff?

Iran, maybe. That is what a pullout of Iraq will do. You probably do not support any foreign country, but a pullout of Iraq now will support Iran.

We'll pull out June 30th.

[mactastic]

Iran, maybe. That is what a pullout of Iraq will do. You probably do not support any foreign country, but a pullout of Iraq now will support Iran.

We'll pull out June 30th.

Have I ever advocated pulling out of Iraq?

[mactastic]

I think we should start with the eco-terrorists from ELF and animal rights terrorists from ALF.


OK, but only if we also can take out our christian-terrorists and the gun nuts at the same time! :D :eek:

[numediaman]

Just for the record: no troops are scheduled to be pulled out on or before June 30th. The June 30th date only has to do with the hand over of power to an interim Iraqi government. So, even if power is turned over on this date, troop levels will not necessarily decline.

Of course, at this point, neither Bremer or Bush know who power is to be turned over to:
From yesterday's presidential press conference:
Q: "Who will we be handing the Iraqi government over to on June 30th?"
A: "We'll find that out soon. That's what Mr. Brahimi is doing."

Tim Russert to Paul Bremer on Meet the Press last Sunday:
Q: "You're going to turn the keys over to the Iraqis. Who do you turn them over to?"
A: "Well, that's a good question," Bremer replied.

[Frohickey]

Have I ever advocated pulling out of Iraq?

Wow, if these are the open arms and flowers our government promised we would be recieved with in Iraq, I'd hate to see what they do when they get pissed at us.... (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=66115&page=3&pp=25&highlight=mactastic)

But there is also the problem of creating more terrorists by doing exactly what UBL said we would be invading Islamic countries. And sure, the military was the correct response - in Afghanistan. Not so in Iraq however. By invading and toppling the Taliban we increased our standing with, and as a result increased the level of cooperation from, the world community whom you cite as necessary to a police-style pursuit of terrorists. Then we blew all that away when we marched into Baghdad. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=66115&page=7&pp=25&highlight=mactastic)

[idkew]

Have I ever advocated pulling out of Iraq?

I never advocate pulling out. It is just too messy. ;)

[zimv20]

I never advocate pulling out. It is just too messy. ;)
go stand in the corner until recess

[mactastic]

(http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=66115&page=3&pp=25&highlight=mactastic)



Nice try, but that's not an advocation of 'cut and run' from me. Yeah, I'm unhappy we went to war there. But find one that says that now that we are there I want to withdraw.

[Frohickey]

Nice try, but that's not an advocation of 'cut and run' from me. Yeah, I'm unhappy we went to war there. But find one that says that now that we are there I want to withdraw.

What's the purpose of repeatedly denouncing the Iraq war and the US role in it?

Are you someone that cries over spilt milk? Do you also keep saying 'I TOLD YOU SO' to someone and only stop when the guy decks you because you are a pain in the butt? ;)

[mactastic]

What's the purpose of repeatedly denouncing the Iraq war and the US role in it?

Making sure we don't ******* up like that again. Or is dissent not allowed in your world? :mad:

Are you someone that cries over spilt milk? Do you also keep saying 'I TOLD YOU SO' to someone and only stop when the guy decks you because you are a pain in the butt? ;)

Are you threatening to deck me now?

And are you someone who keeps making the same mistakes over and over because they won't admit they were wrong from the beginning? :D

[toontra]

What's the purpose of repeatedly denouncing the Iraq war and the US role in it?

Quite simply because, as vast majority of the rest of the world (and an increasing number of people in your own county) have realised, it was a war based on untruths and is being prosecuted, by the US forces in particular, in an inhumane way. My guess is that it will be recorded in history as the biggest error of judgment in modern US foreign policy (but we'll have to wait on that one!)

If that isn't something worth repeatedly denouncing I'd like to know what is.

BTW, if you're so happy with the status quo, why the need to be so defensive here - you're guy's in charge & doing a great job, right? Why not just sit back & gloat at the good news that rolls in day after day. Allow us malcontents the simple pleasure of re-assuring each other that some sanity remains in the world!