Panel Question imac 20'' (2009)

[tms568]

Hi all.
After selling my apple cube i am on the way to order the new imac (20'', 640 GB ATA, 4 GB DDR3, Wireless Mighty Mouse). Normally the 24'' display to me is, refering the size, a little "to much". The 20'' size would fit perfect. As i know from the 2008 imac's there was a big difference between the screens of the 20'' and the 24'' panel - the 20'' version a lot of user had critizised. In this forum some members wrote, that there was no change in the displays at all, others in contrast to that stated, that the 20'' panel is new. Is there anybody who can provide me with valid information, if the 20'' imac is a bad deal? Thanx for Feedback!

[iamthedudeman]

Hi all.
After selling my apple cube i am on the way to order the new imac (20'', 640 GB ATA, 4 GB DDR3, Wireless Mighty Mouse). Normally the 24'' display to me is, refering the size, a little "to much". The 20'' size would fit perfect. As i know from the 2008 imac's there was a big difference between the screens of the 20'' and the 24'' panel - the 20'' version a lot of user had critizised. In this forum some members wrote, that there was no change in the displays at all, others in contrast to that stated, that the 20'' panel is new. Is there anybody who can provide me with valid information, if the 20'' imac is a bad deal? Thanx for Feedback!



The Panel is new from the 2008 model. I recently had a 2008 model, a month ago. Traded it in on a 20' 2009 model. I also own for work a 24' 2009 model. The 2009 20' is fantastic, just as good looking as the 24' only smaller. Do a search on my username, and I explain in detail what the differences are. I went over this topic too many times.

The 20' panel is made by AUOptronics and is model number M302EW02. This is a new panel altogether from the 2008 model. I called the company, got some details. I don't see how you want somebody to provide you with 'valid information' if the 20' is a bad deal or not. Sounds like to me that you want to be convinced that one way or the other if the 20 is a good deal or not. Which no one but yourself can do but yourself. Most people on here are saying the panel is the same without ever seeing or briefly seeing a 2009 panel, totally disregarding the fact the new 2009 20' has a new panel from it's 2008 version, they are implying that the 2008 panel is carried over to 2009 which is not the case. I recently had a late 2008 model, and now own new 20' and 24' 2009 models. I lived with the computers hours on end and researched it to a point of absurdity. I even went so far as to call the company that makes the panels.

So I don't know how much more info you need to make a decision.

Just do a search all the answers are there for you.

[tms568]

Thank you iamthedudeman. I've read your discussion on that topic as well - but there were several guys who said the opposite of you. So i was a little confused about the truth. Even the apple support does either not know that the panel is new or the denied you opinion of a brand new 20'' panel.

BTW: It is just the other way around ;) i WANT to buy the 20'' imac BUT if possible with the certainty to get a panel with better quality :)

[iamthedudeman]

Thank you iamthedudeman. I've read your discussion on that topic as well - but there were several guys who said the opposite of you. So i was a little confused about the truth. Even the apple support does either not know that the panel is new or the denied you opinion of a brand new 20'' panel.

BTW: It is just the other way around ;) i WANT to buy the 20'' imac BUT if possible with the certainty to get a panel with better quality :)

I was being factious. I know what you meant. I am not trying to convince you but I was in your shoes just three weeks ago.

I know what you mean, but how many of them who said the opposite of me actually owned a late 2008 model recently, and now own a 2009 model and a 24 model for comparisons, not many. Or called the company who makes the panels. Do i have OCD or what?:o

There is no mistake on if the panel is new or not, it is a AU Optronics (AUO) part M302EW02, per ifixit.com. I called the company and they would not speak on the panel in question. Would not even acknowledge it even exists.

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/iMac-20-Inch/658/2

Point being that you have to find out for yourself, and go look at one(2009 20') and don't take anyone's word for it, even mine. I did more than my share of homework, and once I checked it out for my self backed up my theories on what i checked out. I sit in front of my 24' 2009 model eight hours a day, and when I sit in front of my 2009 20' I cannot tell the difference in screen quality. That does not mean that there isn't any difference, just I cannot see it.

What does that mean, who knows, maybe it means that the 20 2009 model is a better screen, or that the 24 2009 model is a lesser screen.

I will tell you one thing for a fact, that the 2009 20' is much brighter, and sharper.

Do yourself a favor and go look at a 20 2009 model, that will tell the tale, and make the decision for you. After all your spending the money, and a opinion is just that a opinion, not enough to make up for seeing it for yourself.

[Mike in Kansas]

I know what you mean, but how many of them who said the opposite of me actually owned a late 2008 model recently, and now own a 2009 model and a 24 model for comparisons, not many. Or called the company who makes the panels. Do i have OCD or what?:o


iamthedudeman: I appreciate the thoroughness you have put into figuring this out, and your willingness to provide this information to the forum. I think one of the reasons that you may have some "hecklers" doubting your analysis is that Apple still has the old specs listed for the 20"; being the lower viewing angle and dimmer display for the 20" compared to the 24". That would suggest that the 20" is NOT just a scaled-down version of the 24", but possibly using a different display technology. However, most on here would also agree that Apple sometimes takes the specs as "minimums", in that the actual performance may exceed the specs (like in the ATI 2600PRO versus ATI 2600XT downclocked debate).

To support your argument - I have both a 2008 24" for me, and a 2008 20" for my kids. The display quality differences are easily apparent to me. Not that the 20" is BAD (it's better than any LCD I have owned to date), it's just that the 24" is so much BETTER. My point is, the differences between the two are obvious even without putting the displays side-by-side; you can't miss it. You too were able to tell the differences, and if you CAN'T see the differences between the two current models, than something has indeed changed. I'm not suggesting that they are the same display technology, but am suggesting that the differences may no longer be a point of differentiation, because the differences in the 2008 are obvious.

Disclaimer - I shoot lots of video and images, and have developed a keen eye over the years. My kids can't tell the differences, and neither can my wife, between the 20" and 24" 2008. I can even convince myself that I can see the slight improvement in the contrast ratio of the 2008 20" over the 2008 24". A fair amount of users won't, unless the displays are side-by-side.

[JayLenochiniMac]

I'm not suggesting that they are the same display technology, but am suggesting that the differences may no longer be a point of differentiation, because the differences in the 2008 are obvious.

Agreed. It may be they're using a much better quality TN film panel in the 2009 20", just like how the MBA screen blows away MB screen despite being the same panel type.

I think we would have seen a few more threads on this subject if they actually went back to using IPS in the new 20" (given the uproar and lawsuit when they downgraded the panel going from white 20" to alu 20"), as well as if they started using TN film in the 24".

[iamthedudeman]

iamthedudeman: I appreciate the thoroughness you have put into figuring this out, and your willingness to provide this information to the forum. I think one of the reasons that you may have some "hecklers" doubting your analysis is that Apple still has the old specs listed for the 20"; being the lower viewing angle and dimmer display for the 20" compared to the 24". That would suggest that the 20" is NOT just a scaled-down version of the 24", but possibly using a different display technology. However, most on here would also agree that Apple sometimes takes the specs as "minimums", in that the actual performance may exceed the specs (like in the ATI 2600PRO versus ATI 2600XT downclocked debate).

To support your argument - I have both a 2008 24" for me, and a 2008 20" for my kids. The display quality differences are easily apparent to me. Not that the 20" is BAD (it's better than any LCD I have owned to date), it's just that the 24" is so much BETTER. My point is, the differences between the two are obvious even without putting the displays side-by-side; you can't miss it. You too were able to tell the differences, and if you CAN'T see the differences between the two current models, than something has indeed changed. I'm not suggesting that they are the same display technology, but am suggesting that the differences may no longer be a point of differentiation, because the differences in the 2008 are obvious.

Disclaimer - I shoot lots of video and images, and have developed a keen eye over the years. My kids can't tell the differences, and neither can my wife, between the 20" and 24" 2008. I can even convince myself that I can see the slight improvement in the contrast ratio of the 2008 20" over the 2008 24". A fair amount of users won't, unless the displays are side-by-side.


I don't consider any doubters "hecklers'. Lol. :D

I know that the 20' is probably not a scaled down version of the 24". Is the 24' a superior panel, most likely. Is the 24' 2009 model a IPS panel and the 2009 20' a different display technology most likely. Is it a TN panel not necessarily I am just saying after extensive research, bordering on the insane, the 20' panel is a different panel from it's 2008 counterpart and it is much improved. As far as it being a different panel, that was confirmed by Ifixit.com.

Just what that panel is or the 'real' specs only Apple and AUO knows. What we do know is that the panel in the 2009 model differs from the 2008 model by their model numbers. That much is known.

Now that being said. I don't think the panel in the 2009 model is a TN panel. If it is it's a damn good one.

When I called AUO, I asked for info on model number AU Optronics M302EW02 and they would not even recognize that the panel even exists. They only said that their 2009 panels use true 16.7 colors and not "dithering'.

That says to me that since the model AU Optronics M302EW02 is a 2009 model, does the claim also apply to model number AU Optronics M302EW02 since it is a 2009 model. I think it does. And the last time I checked TN panels dont do true 16.7 million colors and use only dithering. This says to me that the model AU Optronics M302EW02 either uses newer TN technology or that it does not use a TN panel or that I just got bad info. I am can only hope that the first and second reasons apply.

So the only info I have to go on is my first hand knowledge of owning recently the 2008 20' and a 2009 20' and a 2009 24'.

I got the late 2008 model is Feb of 09. One week later I ordered a 24' 2009 model for work and a 20' 2009 model for home and sent back the late 2008 model.

I can tell a big difference in the color saturation between the 2008 and 2009 models especially the brightness and color representation. Comparing the 2008 20 to the 2009 20' is like night and day and not unlike the comparison from the 20' to the 24' 2008 models both of which I have seen up close and personal.



Why hasn't Apple updated the specs on their website when we know that the panel in the 2009 model differs from the 2008 model, who knows. Maybe they are using a different manufacturer other than AUO.

[JayLenochiniMac]

When I called AUO, I asked for info on model number AU Optronics M302EW02 and they would not even recognize that the panel even exists. They only said that their 2009 panels use true 16.7 colors and not "dithering'........And the last time I checked TN panels dont do true 16.7 million colors and use only dithering. This says to me that the model AU Optronics M302EW02 either uses newer TN technology or that it does not use a TN panel or that I just got bad info.

In one of the big threads last year on the lawsuit over the 16.7 million colors claim in the 20", someone mentioned that not all TN panels are 6-bit per channel and that the panel type and the digital to analog converter are independent parts. So apparently some TN panels do display true 16.7 million colors without dithering.

[tms568]

Hi guys.
Today I went to a local apple partner und looked at the display of the new imacs. Unfortunatly they didn't have the imac 20'' 2008 in place any more. Nevertheless if you compare the 20 '' with the 24'' panel you see a slight difference. I thought that the contrast is a little bit lower at the 20'' -settings had been equal. BUT for me there was no fundamentadifference comparing the two panels to each other. So, I think I will take the 20'' imac an pimp it up with 4 GB RAM and a 600er ATA. That should be a good package for the next years and snow leo ;)

[MacAlpha]

Looks like you have made up your mind. I have to say that I agree with the others here. I bought my son a 2009 20" iMac and the screen quality is great. He uses it mostly for playing games, watching movies and surfing the internet and it has a really clear, high contrast picture. I would not hesitate to recommend it. I have not set it beside a new 24" iMac (and in the Apple store near where I live, the don't put the 20" and 24" side by side so a direct comparison is a little difficult, but when walking back and forth between them I could not tell the difference.

Of the displays that we have currently have in our "arsenal", I would say it would come in a clear second, behind my 24" ACD. Third would be my MBP and then last, my wife's MB.

[trip1ex]

I had a previous gen 20" iMac and I thought the screen was quite nice.

It wasn't perfect. It did have that contrast change from top to bottom, but it is not something that is easy to take in all at once and so you don't notice it unless you are doing comparisons top to bottom.

I did sell my 20" iMac last week, but only because I could. And I upgraded to the 24".

I don't notice that great of a difference between the screens. The 24" is bigger of course and that is most noticeable. The color though doesn't seem much better. It is a bit more vibrant to me after a few days use, but my wife said she really can't tell without a side by side comparison.

So I think the 20" iMac screen is very good and certainly much better than the Macbook's screen. The 24" perhaps reaches into the excellent category although the difference will be lost on many. That's how good the 20" is despite its flaws.

[jajo]

The latest 2009 iMac 20" still use a TN-panel. I checked it out yesterday in a store and it looked exactly like a 2008 20". I don't know if it is exactly the same panel, but the performance is surely much lower than of a 24" with H-IPS-panel.

If only Apple had an H-IPS with A-TW polarizer...

/ Jacob

[JayLenochiniMac]

I guess the biggest variable is the brain, for some people cannot tell the difference between H-IPS and TN film, whereas others can notice the difference between 2009 20" TN panel and 2008 20" TN panel.

[iamthedudeman]

The latest 2009 iMac 20" still use a TN-panel. I checked it out yesterday in a store and it looked exactly like a 2008 20". I don't know if it is exactly the same panel, but the performance is surely much lower than of a 24" with H-IPS-panel.

If only Apple had an H-IPS with A-TW polarizer...

/ Jacob

Really? How do you know the 2009 model is a TN? Where did you get your info? Do you have a link?

Checking it out yesterday in a store and owning them are quite a different thing. Of coarse everyone is going to have a opinion on how each screen looks.

No the 2009 is a completely different panel from the 2008 model. That is a fact. Weather it is a TN panel or not that much is not known. Does it show 16.7 million colors, according to AUO it does, regardless of weather it's a TN or not.

Now who's to say that AUO makes all the panels for the 20' imacs. I looked it up and that seems to not be the case. I checked my model number and it is indeed a AUO Panel. The one you looked at may not have been manufactured by AUO.


I previously owned a 2008 20 late model a month ago and now own a 2009' 20 and a 2009 24' and I cannot tell the difference other than the size.

And that is not looking at them at the "store' that is spending hours on them a day. Day in and day out.

[kurosov]

My 20" '09 panel is great. The viewing angle doesn't seem to be as good as some screens but it is still one of the best i have worked with.

If you want looks just be sure to recalibrate your gamma settings to 2.2

[tms568]

Hi.
Comming to an end I ordered the 20'' imac today. After reading all the stuff here and comparing the displays in an reseller store, I hope this system fits und works well for the next years. My last concerns refere now on dead pixels ;-)

[Sebby]

Really? How do you know the 2009 model is a TN? Where did you get your info? Do you have a link?

The ifixit team took one apart and found that it's this (http://auo.com/auoDEV/products.php?sec=monitor&func=info&product_id=111&items_id=1) panel.

[Canadian Bacon]

The ifixit team took one apart and found that it's this (http://auo.com/auoDEV/products.php?sec=monitor&func=info&product_id=111&items_id=1) panel.

Precisely! And iamthedudeman should know that, because he responded to the thread I started on this topic "2009 20" iMac panel vs. 2008 20" iMac panel" about two weeks ago.

[iamthedudeman]

Precisely! And iamthedudeman should know that, because he responded to the thread I started on this topic "2009 20" iMac panel vs. 2008 20" iMac panel" about two weeks ago.

Well, Sebby. CB. Hate to break it to you, ifixit.com just provided a link to the "old' panel for reference. Like I said I called the company, and inquired about the panel in question and they would not even acknowledge it even existed, "did you guys miss the whole thread? This topic has been beaten to death, and with very little searching on this site, most can be made of what is what regarding the panels.

Ifixit.com said so as much, the model number they found was for the AU Optronics M302EW02. They provided a "link' to the old model the AUO M201EW02 V8. As there is no reference to a AU Optronics M302EW02 as they were not revealed by AUO or Apple. Only by tearing down a 2009 imac was this little tidbit of info made known to the public. The specs for the panel they found in the 20" 2009 imac the AU Optronics M302EW02 are not currently known. We don't know if it is a TN panel, or not a TN panel. The only ones who know is Apple and AUO. What we do know is that the panels are different from the 2008 imacs to the 2009 imacs.

Check the site again and you will see that the panel that they provided a link to is the M201EW02, which is the panel on the 2008 imacs, which was confirmed by ifixit.com by the imac 2009 teardown.

You guys need to follow along a little better. ;)

[Sebby]

Sorry, I missed that, but you need to chill. ;)

But come on, it's going to be a TN with such a similar product number...

[JayLenochiniMac]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

[JayLenochiniMac]

From fixit:

"The second one is the LCD itself. It is an AU Optronics (AUO) part M302EW02 that was manufactured on ‘09/04′. iFixit is guessing that it means that the LCD was manufactured in the 4th week of 2009. Unfortunately, the AUO part is a TN (Twisted Nematic) LCD with a viewing angle of just 170/160. Not so good in my book. But since the iMac is targeted toward consumers and not design professionals, maybe this cost-cutting decision can be somewhat understood."

[iamthedudeman]

From fixit:

"The second one is the LCD itself. It is an AU Optronics (AUO) part M302EW02 that was manufactured on ‘09/04′. iFixit is guessing that it means that the LCD was manufactured in the 4th week of 2009. Unfortunately, the AUO part is a TN (Twisted Nematic) LCD with a viewing angle of just 170/160. Not so good in my book. But since the iMac is targeted toward consumers and not design professionals, maybe this cost-cutting decision can be somewhat understood."


Sorry, that is not from ifixit.com

I don't know how you think that is from ifixit.com, or why you would think that it is or imply that it is.

That is from this web blog:

http://www.displayblog.com/2009/03/05/2009-20-imac-ifixit-teardown/

Here is what they do:

http://www.displayblog.com/about-displayblog/

It's just someones opinion, that has no basis whatsoever on what type of panel it is. He is just stating his opinion based upon the linked website that ifixit.com provided which as mentioned earlier was to the "old' model of panel that was used in the 2008 version. Not the new panel.

Here is the original blog:

http://www.displayblog.com/2009/03/05/2009-20-imac-ifixit-teardown/

Has nothing to do with ifixit.com.

If it is a TN it's a better one than the 2008 model.

Looking from the side I can clearly see the screen, sitting on the floor looking up at the screen i can still see the screen clear as day.

Comparing the 2008 model panel to the 2009 panel is like night and day. I also own a 2009 24' and the only difference that I can tell from the 2009 20' and the 2009 24' is the size, that's it.

Not so with the 2008 model. Looking from the side, the screen was not even visible, from the floor the screen was hardly visible.

Like I said before, we don't know yet what the specs are other than that the screen models are different.

Lets keep in mind that the 20's screens are being manufactured by companies other than AUO.

[iamthedudeman]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

That's just the problem, it doesn't look like like a duck, walk like a duck, or quack like a duck, hence the confusion. :confused:

[iamthedudeman]

Sorry, I missed that, but you need to chill. ;)

But come on, it's going to be a TN with such a similar product number...


I personally don't think that it is.

Judging from "owning' recently the 2008 late model 20' imac, and owning the 2009 20' imac and a 2009 24' imac and the viewing angles alone suggest to me that the 2008 model was and is far "inferior' to the 2009 20 and 24 models I presently own.

Secondly, AUO stating to me that they "don't use dithering in any of our 2009 panels' and that "all our 2009 panels use "millions of colors'. And we know that the model in question was a 2009 model.

Thirdly, AUO is switching all their models to "MVA (multi-domain vertical alignment) panels for all their panels.

Here is some info:

"There are several "next-generation" technologies based on MVA, including AU Optronics' P-MVA and A-MVA, as well as Chi Mei Optoelectronics' S-MVA."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFT_LCD

and

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/panel_technologies_content.htm

Lastly. If I look at a angle my 2009' 20. Standing directly from the side, If I peek between six inches and a foot I can see the screen clearly, which is about a 178 degree angle. If I look at my 2009 24 the angle is about the same.

If you got a 2009 try it out you will see what I mean for yourself. Now like I said, AUO is not the only manufacturer of the 2009 20' model as far as the panels are concerned. So we have to keep that in mind.

Now if I were to try that on my previous 2008 model, the screen would be just a washout, totally.

[Canadian Bacon]

Check the site again and you will see that the panel that they provided a link to is the M201EW02, which is the panel on the 2008 imacs, which was confirmed by ifixit.com by the imac 2009 teardown.

You guys need to follow along a little better. ;)

...And this was posted by whom?....oh yeah, that was me. But, whatever.

[JayLenochiniMac]

I stand corrected on ifixit.


Secondly, AUO stating to me that they "don't use dithering in any of our 2009 panels' and that "all our 2009 panels use "millions of colors'. And we know that the model in question was a 2009 model.


I already informed you that not all TN panels are 6-bit. This information is meaningless and does not have any bearing on whether or not the panel is TN.


Thirdly, AUO is switching all their models to "MVA (multi-domain vertical alignment) panels for all their panels.

Here is some info:

"There are several "next-generation" technologies based on MVA, including AU Optronics' P-MVA and A-MVA, as well as Chi Mei Optoelectronics' S-MVA."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFT_LCD

and

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/panel_technologies_content.htm

"Is switching" usually means in the near future. I guess you're arguing/hoping that M302EW02 is this next generation panel. It could very well simply be a custom panel manufactured in bulk for Apple and other vendors.


Lastly. If I look at a angle my 2009' 20. Standing directly from the side, If I peek between six inches and a foot I can see the screen clearly, which is about a 178 degree angle. If I look at my 2009 24 the angle is about the same.

So you're saying that the tech specs on Apple's site is wrong. Somehow I find that difficult to believe given the huge uproar and lawsuit over Apple downgrading the panel in the 20" Alu iMac from the white 20" iMac. It's the first thing Apple would likely correct.

Finally, there's no conclusive evidence that the panel used in the 24" Alu iMac is in fact H-IPS, as nothing can be found on the manufacturer's site either. Really no different from what you're finding with in your search on AUO.

[Canadian Bacon]

Now who's to say that AUO makes all the panels for the 20' imacs. I looked it up and that seems to not be the case.

Care to share your sources for this?

[iamthedudeman]

Well, go to Macintosh HD, library, colorsync,profiles, displays, click on your profile, now scroll down to the "mmod' make and model information.

Now I cannot say for sure but alot of other people are looking up the same thing and some are getting different numbers, so it might be a false positive, but it seems to me that different model numbers means different panels, or maybe not. I am not sure. Just conjecture.

[iamthedudeman]

I stand corrected on ifixit.



I already informed you that not all TN panels are 6-bit. This information is meaningless and does not have any bearing on whether or not the panel is TN.



"Is switching" usually means in the near future. I guess you're arguing/hoping that M302EW02 is this next generation panel. It could very well simply be a custom panel manufactured in bulk for Apple and other vendors.



So you're saying that the tech specs on Apple's site is wrong. Somehow I find that difficult to believe given the huge uproar and lawsuit over Apple downgrading the panel in the 20" Alu iMac from the white 20" iMac. It's the first thing Apple would likely correct.

Finally, there's no conclusive evidence that the panel used in the 24" Alu iMac is in fact H-IPS, as nothing can be found on the manufacturer's site either. Really no different from what you're finding with in your search on AUO.


Well considering that AUO builds panels for many different manufactures and they use the same panel for all the same manufactures, go to their site and check out their products. The product listed for the 2008 model is on their site, if that was the case and they were specifically making panels just for Apple, the model would be anonymous and not a product listed on their site. Which isn't the case.

Apple signs a contract to many manufactures and some of those manufactures make panels for them, they sign a contract and usually Apple enjoys some 'exclusivity' for a short time as is the case with the 2008 model and is the case with the Nvidia 9400M as the specs were released by Apple before they were on Nvidia's site. And the specs on Apple's site were wrong, compared to Nvidia's site.


Apple tends to go light on the specs, this is nothing new. So yes their specs are wrong since they use more than one manufacturer for the panels other than AUO.

Personally I don't care if its a TN panel or not. I am not hoping for anything as I am already pleased with my 20 and 24 panels regardless. I am giving you my opinion, nothing more. Judging by the panel and owning the panel vs a 2008 model, which was a known TN panel, and judging by most TN panels use dithering, and by that AUO telling me themselves that none of their 2009 panels use dithering. Also the viewing angle is essintially the same, Apple is stating on their site a 178 degree angle, TN panels don't sport angles of 178, no matter how good the color is as far as I know, but since I don't know for sure, we will not know until they release the specs.

[JayLenochiniMac]

Apple tends to go light on the specs, this is nothing new. So yes their specs are wrong since they use more than one manufacturer for the panels other than AUO.

So you're suggesting that some 2009 20" use TN (judging from the published specs of 160/160 viewing angles) and some 2009 20" use something better like MVA. Sorry, but my BS detector is going off.

[nout72]

I honestly don't get the obsession with color accuracy.
Unless you're a professional photographer or graphic designer it is not that important.

Most amateur/hobbyist works are viewed at the computer, uploaded to a site.
Not one screen is calibrated exactly the same, the light conditions in the room where the computer sits very much differ from user to user.
So even if your work is made on an iMac with a perfect calibrated, color accurate screen it is not very likely Ahmed from Saudi Arabia or Sven from Sweden will see exactly the same colors.

The poor viewing angle of 'only' 160 degrees?
Honestly, how many times are you NOT sitting in front the screen while working?

[Canadian Bacon]

So you're suggesting that some 2009 20" use TN (judging from the published specs of 160/160 viewing angles) and some 2009 20" use something better like MVA. Sorry, but my BS detector is going off.

My sentiments exactly.

[Canadian Bacon]

Well, go to Macintosh HD, library, colorsync,profiles, displays, click on your profile, now scroll down to the "mmod' make and model information.

Now I cannot say for sure but alot of other people are looking up the same thing and some are getting different numbers, so it might be a false positive, but it seems to me that different model numbers means different panels, or maybe not. I am not sure. Just conjecture.

Can you give us a link to a post from one of these many people? You seem to be citing them as your sources.

[trip1ex]

Saw it today. Same screen as before for all intensive purposes. IT's a TN panel. It has a slight contrast shift from top to bottom. Don't get me wrong. It's a very good screen. Don't let the naysayers tell you it's not. It's just not the best screen. IT's not as good as the screen on the 24" imac. And remember the naysayers use the words "crap" or "terrible" for anything below the "best."

[JayLenochiniMac]

IT's a TN panel. It has a slight contrast shift from top to bottom.

I happened to be at Fry's Electronics today and can confirm the shift from top to bottom. It's clearly a TN panel.

[Canadian Bacon]

Hi all, there is a decent review of the 2009 iMacs in the April issue of the German magazine C&T (Computer & Technik). They had this to say about the panels (translations are mine):

20" panel: TN panel, somewhat reduced viewing angles compared to 24" panel, shows vibrant colors; contrast ratio: 897:1; minimum...maximum brightness: 53...313 cd/m2; response time: 22.6 ms (averaged)

24" panel:IPS panel, stable viewing angles, pleasant colour gamut; contrast ratio: 762:1; minimum...maximum brightness: 215...380 cd/m2; response time: 21.1 ms (averaged)

Here comes the interesting part - Power consumption comparisons:

20" model
power off: 0.7 W
standby: 1.3 W
idling at 100 cd/m2 brightness: 45,6 W
idling at max. brightness: 62.2 W

24" model
power off: 1.0W
standby: 1.7 W
idling at *215 cd/m2 brightness: 82.2 W
idling at max. brightness: 107.3 W
*Quote: "A considerable portion of the 82.2 W consumption is attributed to the display, as brightness cannot be lowered to below 215 cd/m2."

Here's the link to the online version of the article just to cite my sources. Keep in mind, the full article needs to be purchased, and it's in German. It does have a good table with CPU and GPU benchmarks though.
http://www.heise.de/ct/inhalt/2009/08/86/

[trip1ex]

Interesting that the 24" can't go below a certain brightness because man the brightness from this new refurb 24" iMac I got is kind of driving me crazy especially at night. Not sure I can take it. My old 20" was easier on my eyes in that respect and it wasn't exactly lacking for brightness either.

Also ...From Apple's site:

"iMac also decides which processor — CPU or GPU — is best suited to perform a task efficiently. That means when iMac is idle, it’s using as little power as possible."

[MacAndy74]

24" panel:IPS panel, stable viewing angles, pleasant colour gamut; contrast ratio: 762:1; minimum...maximum brightness: 215...380 cd/m2

:eek: 24" iMac has IPS Panel :cool: That's excellent news. What's the make of the IPS Panel?

Edit

LG/Philips IPS Panel (http://www.derekunderwood.com/general-computer/new-imac-24-is-basically-a-screen-with-a-free-computer/)

/happiness!

[Canadian Bacon]

:eek: 24" iMac has IPS Panel :cool: That's excellent news. What's the make of the IPS Panel?

Edit

LG/Philips IPS Panel (http://www.derekunderwood.com/general-computer/new-imac-24-is-basically-a-screen-with-a-free-computer/)

/happiness!

Yeah...I was waiting for someone to say that. Admittedly, much that was stated wasn't new, and they could have mentioned a few other things like what kind of TN panel... but as they say, don't shoot the messenger...it's their info. :)

[Canadian Bacon]

Also ...From Apple's site:
"iMac also decides which processor — CPU or GPU — is best suited to perform a task efficiently. That means when iMac is idle, it’s using as little power as possible."

This is a good thing. Energy prices in Europe are astronomical. Case in point: the price of gas. A litre of super unleaded was €1.27/l today. At today's exchange rate that's US $1.68/l. Edit: Electricity prices are also really high...but as an example, people probably relate to gas prices better.

[agentmouthwash]

for what it's worth,
I saw a 2008 iMac right next to a 2009 iMac at Best Buy and I maxed the brightness on both and the 2009 one was much brighter.

I too am thinking of the 20" iMac and was going to look into a refurb or clearance model, but the fact that the newer 20" panels are brighter made my choice more difficult.

[trip1ex]

for what it's worth,
I saw a 2008 iMac right next to a 2009 iMac at Best Buy and I maxed the brightness on both and the 2009 one was much brighter.

I too am thinking of the 20" iMac and was going to look into a refurb or clearance model, but the fact that the newer 20" panels are brighter made my choice more difficult.

Brightness is not a problem on iMacs. If anything it's a flaw especially on the 24" model.

[agentmouthwash]

Brightness is not a problem on iMacs. If anything it's a flaw especially on the 24" model.

why would it be a flaw? Because it's too bright?

[trip1ex]

why would it be a flaw? Because it's too bright?

Hell yeah. ... because the minimum setting is too bright.

[Sebby]

I'm used to it now. I still have it at full brightness!

[rjp]

I am thinking of buying one of the mid 2007 20" imac refurbs since they have the 2600 pro graphics which is better than the 9400m, and Apple is selling these for 849 now.

Are the 2007 20" screens the same as the 2008 20" screens?

Thanks for any info.

[trose]

for what it's worth,
I saw a 2008 iMac right next to a 2009 iMac at Best Buy and I maxed the brightness on both and the 2009 one was much brighter.

I too am thinking of the 20" iMac and was going to look into a refurb or clearance model, but the fact that the newer 20" panels are brighter made my choice more difficult.

I bought a 20" Refurb and the display is PLENTY bright. I have to turn it down a it or it starts to bother me. Much brighter than my old 22" Samsung 220BW LCD, which itself was a pretty decent monitor.

Unless you're accustomed to working on very high end monitors or the 24" models, which I hear are extremely bright, I doubt you'll have any qualms.

[trose]

I am thinking of buying one of the mid 2007 20" imac refurbs since they have the 2600 pro graphics which is better than the 9400m, and Apple is selling these for 849 now.

Are the 2007 20" screens the same as the 2008 20" screens?

Thanks for any info.

Why not just get the 2008 20"? It's not much more expensive, and it has a faster CPU and twice as much RAM.

[Canadian Bacon]

Hell yeah. ... because the minimum setting is too bright.

Any thoughts as to why the minimum brightness on the 24" would be deliberately set to 4x that of the 20" panel (i.e. 215 vs 53 cd/m2)?

[rjp]

Why not just get the 2008 20"? It's not much more expensive, and it has a faster CPU and twice as much RAM.

The RAM has no value since I will replace either with 4GB .
I can't decide if the CPU upgrade alone is worth 150, so I was wondering if the 2007 model has the same complaints about the display as the 2008.

[MacAndy74]

I know...I was waiting for someone to say that. Admittedly, much that was stated wasn't new, and they could have mentioned a few other things like what kind of TN panel... but as they say, don't shoot the messenger...it's their info. :)

For me it's made a very exciting purchase to very exciting +1 purchase :o I know I'm a total mac geek. ;)

[kvasir]

I'm still on the fence about the 2009 vs. 2008 20". The $999 price is tempting, but if the panel looks any better, I'd take the 2009 over the 2008. In person there was a perceived difference and one of the 2.4ghz models at Best Buy looked uglier than sin. I can get $50 off the 2009 model, but the $150 has me thinking that the 2008 refurbished is a MUCH better deal. Heck, for $50 more I could get a 24", but my wife says it would be too big for our desk and wouldn't work in the room.

Thoughts anyone?

[JayLenochiniMac]

I can't decide if the CPU upgrade alone is worth 150, so I was wondering if the 2007 model has the same complaints about the display as the 2008.

All 20" Aluminum iMacs to date use TN panels, so yes the complaints associated with TN panels would be the same. If you want 20" with a superior panel, you'd have to get the white iMac like in my sig.

[JayLenochiniMac]

Heck, for $50 more I could get a 24", but my wife says it would be too big for our desk and wouldn't work in the room.

Thoughts anyone?

Don't listen to the wife. The 24" has the same footprint as the 20" and unless your desk is 24" wide there's no way it's too big.

[iamthedudeman]

So you're suggesting that some 2009 20" use TN (judging from the published specs of 160/160 viewing angles) and some 2009 20" use something better like MVA. Sorry, but my BS detector is going off.


I am not suggesting anything. You are. You're denying the facts and coming up with your own BS. The fact of the matter is that the panel in the 2009 model is different. No one knows weather it's a TN, MVA, IPS or what. No one but Apple and AUO. I only gave my opinion on what it "might' be. Not on what it is. (by the way the viewing angles are 170/160).

Why would I suggest that a 2009 model uses anything when I clearly stated that I don't know what the 2009 models use? And why would I compare a 2009 model to another 2009 model when I clearly stated the above mentioned.

I never said the 20' 2009 panel uses something better than a TN, or a MVA. I was only giving my opinion on the panel in question and on what it might be. You "said' it was a TN, without any facts to back up your claim. So your claim in essence was in reality your "opinion'.

Stop acting like your know what you're talking about and spouting off like your "opionion' is fact.

I stated my 'opinion' between the 2009 panel and the 2008 Panel since I have recently 'owned' the 2008 model and now own a 2009' 20 and a 2009 24'. The viewing angles are a sharp contrast between the two as I already explained the differences between the two.

Further explaining my theory that the new panels use a better TN panel or a MVA. How you figure this theory is BS when I am comparing panels that I 'owned' and do 'own' is beyond me.

Do you even own a 2009 20'. Or have you ever owned a 2008 20'. No so how would you know how the quality is. Your own a old late model 2006 or early 2007. Non glossy, non aluminum imac, a completly different beast.

The only thing I am sure of is your clueless.

[iamthedudeman]

All 20" Aluminum iMacs to date use TN panels, so yes the complaints associated with TN panels would be the same. If you want 20" with a superior panel, you'd have to get the white iMac like in my sig.

Don't listen to this. Not all TN panels are the same and we don't know if the 2009 panels use a TN or not, neither does Jay. What I do know I stated earlier in the thread. How would you know how a 2009 panel looks when you never owned one your self? Stop giving your 'opinion' as fact. When it's just that, 'your opinion'.

[iamthedudeman]

I'm still on the fence about the 2009 vs. 2008 20". The $999 price is tempting, but if the panel looks any better, I'd take the 2009 over the 2008. In person there was a perceived difference and one of the 2.4ghz models at Best Buy looked uglier than sin. I can get $50 off the 2009 model, but the $150 has me thinking that the 2008 refurbished is a MUCH better deal. Heck, for $50 more I could get a 24", but my wife says it would be too big for our desk and wouldn't work in the room.

Thoughts anyone?

Well coming from a person who recently owned a 2008 model, and now own a 2009 read the thread from the beginning and get real info from someone who actually 'owned' both. The panel on the 2009 compared to the 2008 model is like 'night and day' difference. Go look for yourself, that would be the best info I could give you. I suggested this to a few others and they concurred with what I am saying in this thread.

Do a search and you will see what I mean.

[JayLenochiniMac]

(by the way the viewing angles are 170/160).

According to http://www.apple.com/imac/specs.html , it's 160/160. You must be getting the 170/160 figure somewhere else, but then again the panel in question does not exist on the manufacturer's page :confused:


Further explaining my theory that the new panels use a better TN panel or a MVA. How you figure this theory is BS when I am comparing panels that I 'owned' and do 'own' is beyond me.

The first theory is in fact what I already suggested, which is you're looking at a better TN panel in the 2009 20", but I don't buy the second theory that it's using a MVA. MVA does not have a contrast shift from top to bottom, which others and I have confirmed in the 2009 20". The horizontal viewing angles are very good though and nearly indistinguishable from the 24" I compared. Looks much closer like a 170/160, not a 160/160, but still the slight contrast shift from top to bottom gives it away that it's a TN panel.

[JayLenochiniMac]

Don't listen to this. Not all TN panels are the same and we don't know if the 2009 panels use a TN or not, neither does Jay. What I do know I stated earlier in the thread. How would you know how a 2009 panel looks when you never owned one your self? Stop giving your 'opinion' as fact. When it's just that, 'your opinion'.

Dude, I already mentioned that I physicially viewed a 2009 20" in person.

And, yes, my workplace has several aluminum 20" iMacs.

[iamthedudeman]

According to http://www.apple.com/imac/specs.html , it's 160/160. You must be getting the 170/160 figure somewhere else, but then again the panel in question does not exist on the manufacturer's page :confused:



The first theory is in fact what I already suggested, which is you're looking at a better TN panel in the 2009 20", but I don't buy the second theory that it's using a MVA. MVA does not have a contrast shift from top to bottom, which others and I have confirmed in the 2009 20". The horizontal viewing angles are very good though and nearly indistinguishable from the 24" I compared. Looks much closer like a 170/160, not a 160/160, but still the slight contrast shift from top to bottom gives it away that it's a TN panel.

I never said the panel existed on their website. Your referring a TN panel, thus referring to a imac. The viewing angle on the 2008 model is 170/160. Not confusing at all.

http://auo.com/auoDEV/products.php?sec=monitor&func=info&product_id=111&items_id=1

Well, you or "other's on this thread, looking briefly at a 2009 20' panel does not make your 'opinion' fact. It's just that your opinion. Just as my opinion on the 2009 imac's having a much improved panel is just that a opinion.

You and one other person on this thread is the only instance i have read on this forum of the 2009 panels having any 'contrast shift. My 2009 ' 20 does not have any 'contrast shift' at all. None, Zero, zip. Look up see if you can find any others with the same perceived problem.

I really don't know since the specs are not out yet. I don't really care what kind of panel it has since the screen looks fantastic. If it is a TN, MVA, or what. But not all TN's have a 'contrast shift'.

[kurosov]

You and one other person on this thread is the only instance i have read on this forum of the 2009 panels having any 'contrast shift. My 2009 ' 20 does not have any 'contrast shift' at all. None, Zero, zip. Look up see if you can find any others with the same perceived problem.

Mine has contrast shift.

[Canadian Bacon]

Hey...my iMac has this panel - manufacturer: 0610; model: 09C93
Anyone care to compare?

[JayLenochiniMac]

My 2009 ' 20 does not have any 'contrast shift' at all. None, Zero, zip. Look up see if you can find any others with the same perceived problem.

Canadian Bacon, Seeby, and other owners of 2009 20" iMac, can you test for this slight contrast shift from top to bottom on your 20"? Easiest way to do this is to resize the safari browser small and look at the grey color in the menu bar and you move up and down. Or look at the stripes in iTunes' song listings. You should see the light greys become inverted. Other colors won't fade or turn negative until greater angles.

But not all TN's have a 'contrast shift'.

Care to cite your source on this? Because everything I've read says it's the nature of TN film panels, especially in the vertical directions (in contrast to MVA's slight horizontal contrast shift). Of course, not all TN panels have poor viewing angles (compare MBA's superior TN panel to that of macbooks).

[kurosov]

The best way to check for contrast shift is to aim your screen up and get down low while looking at the apple symbol on your menu bar. If part of it goes white/pale coloured then you have a contrast shift.

The '09 imac does have a decent horizontal viewing angle but vertical contrast shift is still an issue.

[Canadian Bacon]

Well...after doing the safari test for a few minutes I'm voting for subtle contrast shift. The panel still looks way better than my laptop's though.

[JayLenochiniMac]

The panel still looks way better than my laptop's though.

Same with macbooks, which have pretty bad contrast shift.

[Sebby]

I had a look at the 20" in the Apple Store today, and whilst there's definitely a contrast shift, the screen was significantly better than I was expecting. I couldn't imagine anyone being disappointed with it; it's still an absolutely beautiful screen.

[rjp]

Well coming from a person who recently owned a 2008 model, and now own a 2009 read the thread from the beginning and get real info from someone who actually 'owned' both. The panel on the 2009 compared to the 2008 model is like 'night and day' difference. Go look for yourself, that would be the best info I could give you. I suggested this to a few others and they concurred with what I am saying in this thread.

Do a search and you will see what I mean.

dudeman,

I appreciate your input here and I would like to learn more. Personally I find it hard to believe that the 2009 screen would be significantly better than the 2008 screen on the 20" imac, or Apple would have advertised it as a benefit of the new model. Can you provide any links to other people's research that supports your findings?

Clearly you have shown the part numbers are different. Thanks for that info. And clearly your two 20" machines side by side look different, but I would be hesitant to draw any conclusions about all macs from this single comparison. My default position, without any knowledge to the contrary, would be that the screens are actually identical in quality and that the difference you are seeing is perhaps due to the aging of the backlight in the 2008 model. However, I am open to the possibility that you may be on to something, as clearly something is different if the part numbers changed.

Can you offer any quantitative evidence to support your observations, or perhaps links to similar threads by others?


Also: Does anyone have a part number for the 24" screens?

[Hellhammer]

dudeman,

I appreciate your input here and I would like to learn more. Personally I find it hard to believe that the 2009 screen would be significantly better than the 2008 screen on the 20" imac, or Apple would have advertised it as a benefit of the new model. Can you provide any links to other people's research that supports your findings?



Why would Apple advertise it if the resolution is same? Normal people don't understand QHWZQX-796 texts. They have no idead what IPS and TFT panels are.

[rjp]

Why would Apple advertise it if the resolution is same? Normal people don't understand QHWZQX-796 texts. They have no idead what IPS and TFT panels are.

You don't have to understand the technical underpinnings to perceive a quality difference. If the difference can be seen, it can be advertised as a benefit.

They could say something like, "All 2009 models now ship with our new improved display technology making your photos and graphics look better than ever!"

[rjp]

There is no mistake on if the panel is new or not, it is a AU Optronics (AUO) part M302EW02, per ifixit.com. I called the company and they would not speak on the panel in question. Would not even acknowledge it even exists.

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/iMac-20-Inch/658/2


Did you confirm this is not simply a typo? Perhaps the ifixit article has a typo in the part number. The reason I mention this is that the link ifixit provides goes to the M201EW02 panel on AUO. This combined with the fact that AUO wouldn't even acknowledge to you that such a part number exists makes me wonder about the possibility of a typo.

What AUO part number did the 2008 use by the way? was it this 201?

[gjw4u]

You don't have to understand the technical underpinnings to perceive a quality difference. If the difference can be seen, it can be advertised as a benefit.

They could say something like, "All 2009 models now ship with our new improved display technology making your photos and graphics look better than ever!"

What, and thus admit that the 2008 20" model had an inferior panel!

[JayLenochiniMac]

Also: Does anyone have a part number for the 24" screens?

I haven't seen any tear-down of 2009 24", but last-gen 24" is confirmed to use LG.Philips LM240WU2-SLB1, a H-IPS panel.

[nutritious]

just fyi, AUO is a low-end panel manufacturer. Funny apple goes to them for their "high-end" products" At least put a pva panel from samsung in the 20" imac, jesus.

[JayLenochiniMac]

just fyi, AUO is a low-end panel manufacturer. Funny apple goes to them for their "high-end" products"

Except the 20" has been the new 17" ever since the Alu iMac debuted, so not exactly "high-end" unless you consider all Apple products to be high-end.

[nutritious]

Except the 20" has been the new 17" ever since the Alu iMac debuted, so not exactly "high-end" unless you consider all Apple products to be high-end.

most people would consider apple products high-end

[iamthedudeman]

The best way to check for contrast shift is to aim your screen up and get down low while looking at the apple symbol on your menu bar. If part of it goes white/pale coloured then you have a contrast shift.

The '09 imac does have a decent horizontal viewing angle but vertical contrast shift is still an issue.

Just tried it. I could not tell from moving the screen, but I could tell a slight contrast shift if I look at the screen from sitting down and standing and vise versa. Very, very slight but it's there. The gray part of the screen gets lighter somewhat. Not noticeable if your not looking for it. Still looks almost as good as my 24 though, just by looking at the two of them I can't see much difference.

[iamthedudeman]

dudeman,

I appreciate your input here and I would like to learn more. Personally I find it hard to believe that the 2009 screen would be significantly better than the 2008 screen on the 20" imac, or Apple would have advertised it as a benefit of the new model. Can you provide any links to other people's research that supports your findings?

Clearly you have shown the part numbers are different. Thanks for that info. And clearly your two 20" machines side by side look different, but I would be hesitant to draw any conclusions about all macs from this single comparison. My default position, without any knowledge to the contrary, would be that the screens are actually identical in quality and that the difference you are seeing is perhaps due to the aging of the backlight in the 2008 model. However, I am open to the possibility that you may be on to something, as clearly something is different if the part numbers changed.

Can you offer any quantitative evidence to support your observations, or perhaps links to similar threads by others?


Also: Does anyone have a part number for the 24" screens?

Well I have not seen both 'side by side' as my 20' 2008 model was sent back for a 2009 model.

Apple would not advertise a "improved screen' as a benefit. As this would imply that there was something wrong with the "old screen'. Since they are still trying to sell off the remaining 2008's models, that wouldn't make much business sense.

My 2008 model was less than two weeks old. So CCFL back lighting would not be a issue.

Since the model numbers seem to indicate a newer updated model of screen I doubt that AUO would have the same specs as a previous model number. That would not be plausible. You always look to improve a model with new model numbers. Then again they may also be using multiple manufactures, that is also possible. They did with the 2007 and 2008 models.

As to my "sources' My sources were google. Thats it. I called the company AUO and they didn't tell hardly anything. Other than all of their 2009 models do not use "dithering', and if I would be interested in a batch order for my company. That's about it.

Here is a post of the new 2009 imacs as being 'too bright'.

http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20090330064741656

I don't have any inside info any more than anyone else here. Just my experience of having recently owned a new 2008 model and a new 2009 model, as well as a new 2009 24' for work.

I am just giving my thoughts and opinions and experiences on the subject.

Looking at my 2008 model from a angle the screen "flattened out' and produced a "mirrored' effect. Same thing happened with looking at it from below at a angle. My 2009 model does not have this problem. From looking from the side or from below, I can still see the screen. No mirrored look at all.

The brightness on my 2008 was turned up all the way when I got it, and it needed to be to even be watchable. But the screen was clear looking straight at it.

My 2009 20 brightness is turned to about half way. In comparison, the 2008 model needed to be turned up all the way to have the same level of brightness. Some people said that there 2008 screens were too bright. So my opinion on this is multiple manufactures of TN screens for the 2008 models.

This is probably true for the 2009 models as well.

The brightness and 'sharpness' on the 2009 model is quite noticeable in comparison to my 2008 model. In the Apple store, the same was also true.

[iamthedudeman]

Did you confirm this is not simply a typo? Perhaps the ifixit article has a typo in the part number. The reason I mention this is that the link ifixit provides goes to the M201EW02 panel on AUO. This combined with the fact that AUO wouldn't even acknowledge to you that such a part number exists makes me wonder about the possibility of a typo.

What AUO part number did the 2008 use by the way? was it this 201?

It's not a typo. That would be a pretty big typo seeing that they actually have taken the 2009 20 apart. Also I highly doubt that Apple would use the same part or parts for their new 2009 models as prominent as a screen.

The reason is that AUO usually only talks to manufactures of computers, not the general public. That info is reserved to companies that they do business with. Secondly, Apple usually signs a confidentially agreement with the companies or company they are partnered with. AUO is no exception. Especially if Apple has a exclusive to that said product. Which is usually the case with Apples partners.

Case in point is that Apple released the specs for the Nvidia 9400m before Nvidia did. And Nvidia makes the product.

[Canadian Bacon]

Also: Does anyone have a part number for the 24" screens?

I was at my electronics retailer today. They had a 24" 2009 iMac (2.93/GT 120) that wasn't locked into an Apple promo video - so I checked the panel make and model info. That iMac has this panel:

manufacturer: 0610
model number: 9C96

And, the other day I posted my panel info. My 2009 20" panel has the same manufacturer code:0610. So, can I logically conclude from this that the manufacturer of the panels for both my 20" iMac and the 24" model are the same? If yes, both would have to be AU Optronics, or both LG/Philips, wouldn't they? Anyone?

[rjp]

If you want to test for contrast shift, etc, go to this thread and look at the 4 color patches. I have never seen such a simple and effective test. On a TN panel, all the colors will shift as your viewing angle changes. For example, start by looking straight on at the screen, see the blue and purple patches on the left, then move your head down so you are looking somewhat up at the screen. At a certain angle the purple patch will start to lose it's red component and become more blue. Eventually the two patches will become an almost identical shade of blue. THis does not happen on the 24"

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4030968&postcount=3

I went to the Apple store yesterday and pulled up this page on both the 24" and 20" imacs (2009). The 24 shows almost no change at all in the four color patches when viewed from any angle (actually pretty amazing). The 20" shows drastic shifts at any angle greater than about 30 degrees from center.

The test very clearly and easily demonstrated the difference between the IPS and TN panel. It has nothing to do with the number of bits, just the technology used.

I just bought a mid 2007 20" refurb. Haven't decided if I'm keeping it yet. Just set it up this morning. The same pattern looks at least as good on this monitor as the new 2009 20" with the possible exception of the 2009 being brighter. I do not see any more color shift on the 2007 panel.

So my observations (so far) are that the 2009 screen is not better quality than the mid 2007. I plan to calibrate it using eye1 later and do some more tests before deciding if I will keep this or upgrade to the 24".

The 24" screen is truly amazing. I can't get over how the colors all hold rock solid at any angle, but I've got to admit, the 20" 2007 I'm looking at right now is pretty darn excellent too, at least for a TN.

More later, if I learn any more.

[JayLenochiniMac]

I was at my electronics retailer today. They had a 24" 2009 iMac (2.93/GT 120) that wasn't locked into an Apple promo video - so I checked the panel make and model info. That iMac has this panel:

manufacturer: 0610
model number: 9C96

And, the other day I posted my panel info. My 2009 20" panel has the same manufacturer code:0610. So, can I logically conclude from this that the manufacturer of the panels for both my 20" iMac and the 24" model are the same? If yes, both would have to be AU Optronics, or both LG/Philips, wouldn't they? Anyone?

I'm at work and just checked my white 20" iMac. Manufacturer is 0610 and model number is 9C59. It can't be AU Optronics, so maybe LG.Philips since the white 20" is known to have either LG.Philips S-IPS (same panel as the 20" ACD) or Samsung S-PVA panel. Either the manufacturer code is meaningless or some 2009 20" use something other than AUO.

For those of you wishing to find out the panel info, do the following:
1) Go to System preferences
2) Choose Display
3) Choose Color
4) Open Profile
5) Scroll down to number 13

[Canadian Bacon]

Either the manufacturer code is meaningless or some 2009 20" use something other than AUO.

Maybe the 0610 just refers to something like 'Apple-brand' i.e made for Apple. For those of us who tested for contrast shift - and own/have access to a new 20" iMac, could we perhaps check the make and model info to see if we're looking at the same panel number? This could help to clear up the multiple panel manufacturer theory. Thanks.

[JayLenochiniMac]

Also, you can find out what panel you have by opening terminal and pasting the following command:
ioreg -lw0 | grep IODisplayEDID | sed "/[^<]*</s///" | xxd -p -r | strings -6

My 24" is LM240WU2-SLB1 and manufacturer is 0610, but I've seen this same 0610 code used for AU Optronics, which leads me to think the manufacturer code is meaningless. The model number is what's important.

[Canadian Bacon]

Also, you can find out what panel you have by opening terminal and pasting the following command:
ioreg -lw0 | grep IODisplayEDID | sed "/[^<]*</s///" | xxd -p -r | strings -6

Thanks for posting that. I just tried it on our white Macbook X3100 at work. There are different panel numbers listed in parentheses. Apart from scrolling through loads of data and looking for any mentions of 'display' and 'panel', how do you locate the exact panel the computer has? Cheers. Edit: I figured it out, so disregard above question. Thanks.

[iamthedudeman]

If you want to test for contrast shift, etc, go to this thread and look at the 4 color patches. I have never seen such a simple and effective test. On a TN panel, all the colors will shift as your viewing angle changes. For example, start by looking straight on at the screen, see the blue and purple patches on the left, then move your head down so you are looking somewhat up at the screen. At a certain angle the purple patch will start to lose it's red component and become more blue. Eventually the two patches will become an almost identical shade of blue. THis does not happen on the 24"

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4030968&postcount=3

I went to the Apple store yesterday and pulled up this page on both the 24" and 20" imacs (2009). The 24 shows almost no change at all in the four color patches when viewed from any angle (actually pretty amazing). The 20" shows drastic shifts at any angle greater than about 30 degrees from center.

The test very clearly and easily demonstrated the difference between the IPS and TN panel. It has nothing to do with the number of bits, just the technology used.

I just bought a mid 2007 20" refurb. Haven't decided if I'm keeping it yet. Just set it up this morning. The same pattern looks at least as good on this monitor as the new 2009 20" with the possible exception of the 2009 being brighter. I do not see any more color shift on the 2007 panel.

So my observations (so far) are that the 2009 screen is not better quality than the mid 2007. I plan to calibrate it using eye1 later and do some more tests before deciding if I will keep this or upgrade to the 24".

The 24" screen is truly amazing. I can't get over how the colors all hold rock solid at any angle, but I've got to admit, the 20" 2007 I'm looking at right now is pretty darn excellent too, at least for a TN.

More later, if I learn any more.

Well, I did the test and did not see any blocks turning form purple to blue from the top, sides. Only from the bottom. The only way they turned is from viewed from the bottom. I even looked at extreme angles from the sides and top, no color change. They all kept their color.

The ones viewed in the store turned at any angle, am i right? So what does this mean? Different manufactures most likely.

I did the same test at work on my 24' and the did the same test. All colors did stay the same.

The advantages between a 2007 and 09 are much more than the screen. I have not seen the 2007 screens, but if they are like the 08's than I cannot see how you can justify keeping it.

My 2009 screen looks fantastic. Regardless. Viewing angles is almost on par with my 24 at work. I really don't know what you guys are looking at but I cannot tell a big difference at all in screen quality or contrast. Other than the size.

[Canadian Bacon]

Well, I did the test and did not see any blocks turning form purple to blue from the top, sides. Only from the bottom. The only way they turned is from viewed from the bottom. I even looked at extreme angles from the sides and top, no color change. They all kept their color.

The ones viewed in the store turned at any angle, am i right? So what does this mean? Different manufactures most likely.

My 2009 screen looks fantastic. Regardless. Viewing angles is almost on par with my 24 at work. I really don't know what you guys are looking at but I cannot tell a big difference at all in screen quality or contrast. Other than the size.

Could I ask you to post your panel number? Then we'd at least have a direct comparison of two 2009 20" panel numbers. Thanks in advance.

[kurosov]

Could I ask you to post your panel number? Then we'd at least have a direct comparison of two 2009 20" panel numbers. Thanks in advance.

just got mine from the terminal method above. (yes, its an 09 20")


LM201WE3-TLF7
Color LCD

[rjp]

Well, I did the test and did not see any blocks turning form purple to blue from the top, sides. Only from the bottom. The only way they turned is from viewed from the bottom. I even looked at extreme angles from the sides and top, no color change. They all kept their color.

The ones viewed in the store turned at any angle, am i right? So what does this mean? Different manufactures most likely.

I did the same test at work on my 24' and the did the same test. All colors did stay the same.

The advantages between a 2007 and 09 are much more than the screen. I have not seen the 2007 screens, but if they are like the 08's than I cannot see how you can justify keeping it.

My 2009 screen looks fantastic. Regardless. Viewing angles is almost on par with my 24 at work. I really don't know what you guys are looking at but I cannot tell a big difference at all in screen quality or contrast. Other than the size.


Because the 2007 with 2600 pro is only 849 from Apple refurb when you can find them. There were a few last week. What can beat this deal?

Yes, the purple only shifts blue when viewing from below. Some other colors shift more from the top. For example the yellow will go orange from the top, gray goes black from bottom but white from top. Read the whole thread in that link if you would like more details.

I have tested the 2009 20" at my the store and at my library and it appears identical in regards to the degree of color shift for all the patterns.

If you are seeing a difference perhaps you really did get a different panel in your 2009 than the two I have tested on.

Yesterday I calibrated th 2007 20" using eyeOne. After calibration to 6500K 2.2 gamma I measured maximum brightness at 304 cd/m2. It was 340 before calibration but the blue channel was too weak to maintain accurate grayscale at this power so overall brightness had to go down on red and green to match. The specs for the panel are 300 cd/m2 so seems to be right on. I measured contrast ratio of 889:1, specs are 1000:1. Was able to achieve deltaE less than 2 across the board. Display looks really nice now.

I will measure the brightness of the 2009 today.

[Canadian Bacon]

Via the terminal method I have this panel: LM201WE3-TLF7 Colour LCD
To summarise, mmod was: 0610, 9C93 (edited!)

The panel numbers were discussed here:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=665006

If that info is correct, the panel in my iMac is a 6-bit LG/philips panel using dithering, which was used in earlier iMacs.

[JayLenochiniMac]

My 2009 screen looks fantastic. Regardless. Viewing angles is almost on par with my 24 at work. I really don't know what you guys are looking at but I cannot tell a big difference at all in screen quality or contrast. Other than the size.

Could you post your panel number using the terminal method? At this point, it looks like we have a panel lottery and all the 2009 20" owners with LG.Philips LM201WE3-TLF7 are seeing contrast shift. You may be looking at the good bet in a panel lottery if you are truly not seeing contrast shift.

[rjp]

Because the 2007 with 2600 pro is only 849 from Apple refurb when you can find them. There were a few last week. What can beat this deal?

Yes, the purple only shifts blue when viewing from below. Some other colors shift more from the top. For example the yellow will go orange from the top, gray goes black from bottom but white from top. Read the whole thread in that link if you would like more details.

I have tested the 2009 20" at my the store and at my library and it appears identical in regards to the degree of color shift for all the patterns.

If you are seeing a difference perhaps you really did get a different panel in your 2009 than the two I have tested on.

Yesterday I calibrated th 2007 20" using eyeOne. After calibration to 6500K 2.2 gamma I measured maximum brightness at 304 cd/m2. It was 340 before calibration but the blue channel was too weak to maintain accurate grayscale at this power so overall brightness had to go down on red and green to match. The specs for the panel are 300 cd/m2 so seems to be right on. I measured contrast ratio of 889:1, specs are 1000:1. Was able to achieve deltaE less than 2 across the board. Display looks really nice now.

I will measure the brightness of the 2009 today.


Well, I'm at the library now on a new 2009 20" imac.

The panel info from the terminal method is:
LM201WE3-TLF7
Color LCD

The measured brightness is 301 cd/m2, Contrast ratio 779:1, uncalibrated. I can't run the calibration sw as limited user.

Bottom line. There is absolutely no measurable difference between the mid 2007 and early 2009 20" imac display panels. No difference in degree of color/contrast shift, and no difference in total brightness. Contrast ratio is nearly identical too.

If iamthedudeman is really seeing differences, he must have a different product. I am convinced the ones I measured perform identically.

Now, I'm going to go measure the brightness of the 24"


EDIT: Hey, isn't this the panel number for the 2008? Interesting. I used the following command to read this.

Last login: Mon Apr 13 10:55:44 on console
splstaffs-imac:~ kidd$ ioreg -lw0 | grep IODisplayEDID | sed "/[^<]*</s///" | xxd -p -r | strings -6
LM201WE3-TLF7
Color LCD


From "about this mac"
Hardware Overview:

Model Name: iMac
Model Identifier: iMac9,1
Processor Name: Intel Core 2 Duo
Processor Speed: 2.66 GHz
Number Of Processors: 1
Total Number Of Cores: 2
L2 Cache: 6 MB
Memory: 2 GB
Bus Speed: 1.07 GHz
Boot ROM Version: IM91.008D.B00
SMC Version: 1.36f3
Serial Number: WQ90440H0TF


From "color profile" line 13
Manufacturer 00000610
Model 00009C93

[rjp]

Just for comparison, the 2008 24" imac here at the library shows 352 cd/m2 on full brightness and 217 cd/m2 on minimum brightness for pure white patch.

Here's the display info from terminal

Last login: Tue Apr 14 08:23:58 on console
Macintosh-3:~ refappleuser$ ioreg -lw0 | grep IODisplayEDID | sed "/[^<]*</s///" | xxd -p -r | strings -6
LM240WU2-SLB2
Color LCD

From COlor Profile
00000610
00009C8E

From "ABout this mac"Hardware Overview:

Model Name: iMac
Model Identifier: iMac8,1
Processor Name: Intel Core 2 Duo
Processor Speed: 2.8 GHz
Number Of Processors: 1
Total Number Of Cores: 2
L2 Cache: 6 MB
Memory: 4 GB
Bus Speed: 1.07 GHz
Boot ROM Version: IM81.00C1.B00
SMC Version: 1.30f1
Serial Number: QP8410LZZE7

[Canadian Bacon]

As per the title, just a quick anecdote:
This iMac is my replacement - the first unit was crooked. The first unit's panel seemed unbelievably clear, bright and evenly lit. This iMac's panel is clear, but didn't "wow" me like the first one. And it doesn't seem as evenly lit on booting up when the apple logo appears on the grey and blue backgrounds. The dock icons' edges also don't seem as sharp and crisp in comparison. The screensaver options don't look as sharp either.

When I switched this iMac on for the first time, I immediately went for the increase-brightness button (which was already at max.), and I always keep it on full. I didn't do that on the first unit. In fact, it was quite the opposite - I almost never had it at full brightness, more like 70% of max. I didn't check the panel mmod on the first unit, because I was expecting an identical replacement. In retrospect, that might have been a big mistake. Especially, if other users do, indeed, report having a different panel. The supposed 'new' panel was actually the prime reason I didn't go for a 2008 model, even if there was no guarantee the rumors were true.

Of course, a little voice keeps telling me I'm imagining things now that I have model numbers, because the first screen was a direct comparison to my HP laptop's screen (dim and grainy with backlight bleed). This iMac is being compared to the first. Yet, even though this panel looks better than my laptop's, the nagging feeling that I had a different panel before isn't going away. Sigh.

[rjp]

As per the title, just a quick anecdote:
This iMac is my replacement - the first unit was crooked. The first unit's panel seemed unbelievably clear, bright and evenly lit. This iMac's panel is clear, but didn't "wow" me like the first one. And it doesn't seem as evenly lit on booting up when the apple logo appears on the grey and blue backgrounds. The dock icons' edges also don't seem as sharp and crisp in comparison. The screensaver options don't look as sharp either.

When I switched this iMac on for the first time, I immediately went for the increase-brightness button (which was already at max.), and I always keep it on full. I didn't do that on the first unit. In fact, it was quite the opposite - I almost never had it at full brightness, more like 70% of max. I didn't check the panel mmod on the first unit, because I was expecting an identical replacement. In retrospect, that might have been a big mistake. Especially, if other users do, indeed, report having a different panel. The supposed 'new' panel was actually the prime reason I didn't go for a 2008 model, even if there was no guarantee the rumors were true.

Of course, a little voice keeps telling me I'm imagining things now that I have model numbers, because the first screen was a direct comparison to my HP laptop's screen (dim and grainy with backlight bleed). This iMac is being compared to the first. Yet, even though this panel looks better than my laptop's, the nagging feeling that I had a different panel before isn't going away. Sigh.

Which model imac are you talking about? Is this a replacement? Sorry, I forget your story. Was the first one defective?

I can definitely relate to that nagging feeling and uncertainty about whether or not the other one was better. That's why I use the eyeOne colorimeter probe and HCFR calibration SW, because I can not trust my eyes to evaluate the image and remember it.

[Canadian Bacon]

Which model imac are you talking about? Is this a replacement? Sorry, I forget your story. Was the first one defective?

The model is the 2009 20" (see signature). Here's the story on the defective first unit: it's a short thread.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=677136

[rjp]

A quick search matches this as the panel in the 2009 20" imac (LM201WE3) I looked at today. It is LG, Philips.

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?pan=LM201WE3

The 24" also has a panel by LG, Philips, (LM240WU2) which could explain why the manufacturer codes match. Who said AUOs were used anyway?

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=LM240WU2&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

[JayLenochiniMac]

The 24" also has a panel by LG, Philips, (LM240WU2) which could explain why the manufacturer codes match. Who said AUOs were used anyway?


I dug up some threads that suggest manufacturer 0610 is AUO, hence my suspicion. However, this could be in error and 0610 is actually LG.Philips.

[Canadian Bacon]

The 24" also has a panel by LG, Philips, (LM240WU2) which could explain why the manufacturer codes match. Who said AUOs were used anyway?

I think ifixit.com is the culprit who got people - including myself - hoping for a new panel. Here's the link. Go to page 2 of the article to see the AU Optronics part number.

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/iMac-20-Inch/658/1

[iamthedudeman]

I'm at work and just checked my white 20" iMac. Manufacturer is 0610 and model number is 9C59. It can't be AU Optronics, so maybe LG.Philips since the white 20" is known to have either LG.Philips S-IPS (same panel as the 20" ACD) or Samsung S-PVA panel. Either the manufacturer code is meaningless or some 2009 20" use something other than AUO.

For those of you wishing to find out the panel info, do the following:
1) Go to System preferences
2) Choose Display
3) Choose Color
4) Open Profile
5) Scroll down to number 13

The manufacturer code is meaningless. My code is also 0610.

My model number is 9C92.

I think Jay your info just figured this thing out. I am going to run a calibration test now and do use terminal to figure out my model number.

[iamthedudeman]

Could you post your panel number using the terminal method? At this point, it looks like we have a panel lottery and all the 2009 20" owners with LG.Philips LM201WE3-TLF7 are seeing contrast shift. You may be looking at the good bet in a panel lottery if you are truly not seeing contrast shift.

Well your right on that one, as well as my panel being a TN.

Model:M201EW02 VF

The model for the 07 and 08 models were a M201EW02 VB. That pertains only to the AUO panel imacs.

I don't know the difference between the two.

Calling AUO now.


RJP, yes you were right, ifixit.com rick rolled us all by posting the wrong model number. This also explains why AUO did not know what I was talking about when i asked about the model number M301EW02.

Thanks ifixit.com

[rjp]

Well your right on that one, as well as my panel being a TN.

Model:M201EW02 VF

The model for the 07 and 08 models were a M201EW02 VB. That pertains only to the AUO panel imacs.

I don't know the difference between the two.

Calling AUO now.


RJP, yes you were right, ifixit.com rick rolled us all by posting the wrong model number. This also explains why AUO did not know what I was talking about when i asked about the model number M301EW02.

Thanks ifixit.com

So, after all, what is the number of your 20" 2009 display?

If interested, the calibration SW I am using is available free from HCFR. It is discussed in this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=983943

[iamthedudeman]

The AUO panel in question is a 8 bit panel. Hence the 16.7 million colors included on the spec page.

Also there are different variances of that model with different specs. The different model numbers are as follows.

M201EW02 V0
M201EW02 V1
M201EW02 V2
M201EW02 V8
M201EW02 V9
M201EW02 VB
M201EW02 VC

My model number is M201EW02 VF.

Quite different from that above. I really don't know what my specs are without buying 240 worth of calibration software. If anyone knows how to get the displays specs without breaking the bank I would greatly appreciate it.

To my knowledge some of these are 6-bit with FRC displaying 16.2 million colors via dithering, and some are true 8 bit displaying 16.7 million colors. Click here if you want to know if your panel is 6 bit or 8 bit.

This is a huge difference.

http://www.webdoodles.org/pages/screentest.htm

This would explain alot. A 8 bit panel would have a higher viewing angle and show colors more accurately. This is a big discrepancy in the 2009's panels. Some using 8-bit and some using 6-bit with FRC. Here is a good article explaining the issue.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/6bit_8bit.htm#8bit%20TN

[iamthedudeman]

So, after all, what is the number of your 20" 2009 display?

If interested, the calibration SW I am using is available free from HCFR. It is discussed in this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=983943

I just posted it. This is it. Model:M201EW02 VF

That is the model number of my display. By AUO.

Thanks for the calibration info.

[iamthedudeman]

So, after all, what is the number of your 20" 2009 display?

If interested, the calibration SW I am using is available free from HCFR. It is discussed in this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=983943


Downloaded the HCFR software, now what? I cannot get anything to respond?

Hoe do you get your panel info? The user Manuel is in French?

[rjp]

Downloaded the HCFR software, now what? I cannot get anything to respond?

Hoe do you get your panel info? The user Manuel is in French?

You need to buy a colorimeter probe to put on the screen. The SW is used to control the probe and record the measurements and compute color values and errors. I use a probe called EyeOne Display LT. It costs about 140 US on amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Xrite-EODLT-X-Rite-Eye-One-Display/dp/B000CR78CE/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1239855150&sr=8-3

You can also get a Spyder probe for less. HCFR supports a variety of probes. Yes, the team is in France and all their documentntaion is in French, but the avsforum is full of supporting documentation including full step-by-step tutorials about how to calibrate using this SW. Also, the HCFR authors participate daily on that forum.

Calibration like this is not for everyone. It is pretty complicated, but if it is of interest to you I am sure you could learn what you need by reading this forum. It is a fun hobby, and you can use it on your HDTV too. Good luck!

[iamthedudeman]

You need to buy a colorimeter probe to put on the screen. The SW is used to control the probe and record the measurements and compute color values and errors. I use a probe called EyeOne Display LT. It costs about 140 US on amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Xrite-EODLT-X-Rite-Eye-One-Display/dp/B000CR78CE/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1239855150&sr=8-3

You can also get a Spyder probe for less. HCFR supports a variety of probes. Yes, the team is in France and all their documentntaion is in French, but the avsforum is full of supporting documentation including full step-by-step tutorials about how to calibrate using this SW. Also, the HCFR authors participate daily on that forum.

Calibration like this is not for everyone. It is pretty complicated, but if it is of interest to you I am sure you could learn what you need by reading this forum. It is a fun hobby, and you can use it on your HDTV too. Good luck!


Thanks, but I am quite happy with the looks of my screen. I just wanted to know the specs of my screen. I appreciate the help.

It's a shame that the panel lottery going on with the 20's. I am fortunate to get a good 8-bit panel.

[iamthedudeman]

just got mine from the terminal method above. (yes, its an 09 20")


LM201WE3-TLF7
Color LCD

Interesting:

Here are the specs for your panel.

http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/... .../download.jsp?fileName=LG_Philips_LCD.PDF

Try this site and see what it says since your panel uses 6-bit dithering with FRC to achieve 8bit colors.

http://www.webdoodles.org/pages/screentest.htm

[trip1ex]

The spec page says "Millions of colors at all resolutions."

I trust my eyes. I was at Microcenter today. The 20" iMac looks the same as the last-gen 20" iMac. Now the panel might be technically a different model number, but same result. Many products change model numbers just because the manufacturer gets a new supplier for a specific part or three. It doesn't mean it's an upgrade at all.

I think the panel is fine. It's good. But the 24" is nicer.

However personally I just sold my 24" iMac refurb (made >$100 even. :) ) My wife thought is was too overwhelming for her so I'm going to get her a 20" which we had before the 24". Just not sure if its going to be a new 20" or the $999 20" refurb which is close to the same thing except it has the 2600 pro, 800mhz DDR2 Ram and 1 less USB port along with a larger keyboard.

[iamthedudeman]

The spec page says "Millions of colors at all resolutions."

I trust my eyes. I was at Microcenter today. The 20" iMac looks the same as the last-gen 20" iMac. Now the panel might be technically a different model number, but same result. Many products change model numbers just because the manufacturer gets a new supplier for a specific part or three. It doesn't mean it's an upgrade at all.

I think the panel is fine. It's good. But the 24" is nicer.

However personally I just sold my 24" iMac refurb (made >$100 even. :) ) My wife thought is was too overwhelming for her so I'm going to get her a 20" which we had before the 24". Just not sure if its going to be a new 20" or the $999 20" refurb which is close to the same thing except it has the 2600 pro, 800mhz DDR2 Ram and 1 less USB port along with a larger keyboard.


Actually thats not true:

Here are some specs for the following AUO products. Notice how the "C" is much improved over the last model "B'. My model number which ends in "VF" which is not listed. All models sport 'true' 8 bit panels. Not 6-bit with FRC. Which is a inferior panel.

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

Now the specs for the "other' panel:

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=LM201WE3&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

Notice how one uses 6-bit with FRC and one uses 8 bit. 6-bit with FRC uses a dithering method to achieve millions of colors. Dithering produces higher contrast shifts.

Take the test and see how you do.

http://www.webdoodles.org/pages/screentest.htm

[trip1ex]

Actually thats not true:



What's not true?

I think you are incorrectly assuming a new panel # means an improved panel. That is what is just not true.

[iamthedudeman]

What's not true?

I think you are incorrectly assuming a new panel # means an improved panel. That is what is just not true.

Really? The "VC' is not improved. What website are you looking at? If your theory was correct the specs should be the same for each, right?

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=&showobsolete=on&showunofficial=on


http://www.displaze.com/Html/ovManu_auo.html

On this site you can see what AUO panels are "in production'. As you can see, the M201EW02 models of AUO have different model numbers. My model number of M201EW02 VF is not listed but must either be the V8 or the VC. Since the M201EW02 V8 was produced in 2008 and the M201EW02 VC was produced in 2009 my panel most likely is the 'VC'. The "VF' may just stand for a model of the M201EW02 family that is 'Apple' specific.

[iamthedudeman]

Also, you can find out what panel you have by opening terminal and pasting the following command:
ioreg -lw0 | grep IODisplayEDID | sed "/[^<]*</s///" | xxd -p -r | strings -6

My 24" is LM240WU2-SLB1 and manufacturer is 0610, but I've seen this same 0610 code used for AU Optronics, which leads me to think the manufacturer code is meaningless. The model number is what's important.

Did you do the: ioreg -lw0 | grep IODisplayEDID | sed "/[^<]*</s///" | xxd -p -r | strings -6

What did you get?

[JayLenochiniMac]

Did you do the: ioreg -lw0 | grep IODisplayEDID | sed "/[^<]*</s///" | xxd -p -r | strings -6

What did you get?

You mean for my 24"? Yes, it's LM240WU2-SLB1 as I stated earlier. So we've confirmed the manufacturer code is meaningless since both LG.Philips and AUO use the same code.

[JayLenochiniMac]

I trust my eyes. I was at Microcenter today. The 20" iMac looks the same as the last-gen 20" iMac.

But we've just confirmed that the 2009 20" uses either a LG.Philips LM201WE3 or an AUO M201EW02 so unless you viewed both panels you can't make that claim. Dudeman's description of his M201EW02 in terms of colors and contrast shift seems vastly different from 2009 20" owners with the LG.Philips panel.

[Canadian Bacon]

Really? The "VC' is not improved. What website are you looking at? If your theory was correct the specs should be the same for each, right?

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=&showobsolete=on&showunofficial=on


http://www.displaze.com/Html/ovManu_auo.html

On this site you can see what AUO panels are "in production'. As you can see, the M201EW02 models of AUO have different model numbers. My model number of M201EW02 VF is not listed but must either be the V8 or the VC. Since the M201EW02 V8 was produced in 2008 and the M201EW02 VC was produced in 2009 my panel most likely is the 'VC'. The "VF' may just stand for a model of the M201EW02 family that is 'Apple' specific.

The first link shows that the AU M201EW02 VC panel comes with 4 backlights. The other AU panels list 6 backlights. The panel that ifixit looked at also had 4 backlights. Coincidence? Any thoughts?

[rjp]

The first link shows that the AU M201EW02 VC panel comes with 4 backlights. The other AU panels list 6 backlights. The panel that ifixit looked at also had 4 backlights. Coincidence? Any thoughts?

Yes, and 92% color gamut too!

Lucky.

Of course the "VF" version may be a special 6-bit model made for Apple imacs for all we know.

[rjp]

Interesting:

Here are the specs for your panel.

http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/... .../download.jsp?fileName=LG_Philips_LCD.PDF

Try this site and see what it says since your panel uses 6-bit dithering with FRC to achieve 8bit colors.

http://www.webdoodles.org/pages/screentest.htm

What is this site supposed to be showing me? I don't get it. All I see is the resolution and color depth of 32.

[trip1ex]

Really? The "VC' is not improved. What website are you looking at? If your theory was correct the specs should be the same for each, right?


?

I looked at the monitor with my own 2 eyes.


And when it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck.

You're ignoring all the visits folks made to stores to see with their own 2 eyes that the panel is the same as the previous generation (walks like a duck) and you are ignoring all the reviews that back this up as well (quacks like a duck.)

Instead you are incorrectly assuming a different model # on the lcd means something other than a different model number.

The rest of us are counting the horse's teeth by walking up to the horse and opening up his mouth and looking at the teeth themselves.

[trip1ex]

But we've just confirmed that the 2009 20" uses either a LG.Philips LM201WE3 or an AUO M201EW02 so unless you viewed both panels you can't make that claim. Dudeman's description of his M201EW02 in terms of colors and contrast shift seems vastly different from 2009 20" owners with the LG.Philips panel.

I can make that claim. I said a different panel number doesn't mean it is improved.

Dudeman's whole claim in based on a different #.

While the rest of us have all confirmed, by looking with our own 2 eyes, at many more iMacs than Dudeman has, that the new 20" iMac has the same panel. All reviews of the new iMacs have also backed this up.

Is there a chance Dudeman is right? Sure there's a chance. Just like Jim Carrey had a chance in Dumb & Dumber.

But the burden of proof is on him because he has the million to one odds. Not on me or anyone else saying that the panels are the same.

Show me the money. Dudeman can take pics to back up his claim. A couple from extreme angles from the side. And a couple of pics from a fixed position showing the title bar at the top and at the bottom of the screen.

Funny how he has the proof in front of him, but instead is speculating on model numbers.

[JayLenochiniMac]

It would be correct to say a new model number does not necessarily mean it's improved. It may or may not be improved. However, based on Dudeman's descriptions on colors and contrast shift I'm giving him the benefit of doubt and say he's looking at an improved TN panel. That is, until someone with the same M201EW02 VF panel comes here and say the contrast shift is definitely the same as the predecessors.

[trip1ex]

It would be correct to say a new model number does not necessarily mean it's improved. It may or may not be improved. However, based on Dudeman's descriptions on colors and contrast shift I'm giving him the benefit of doubt and say he's looking at an improved TN panel. That is, until someone with the same M201EW02 VF panel comes here and say the contrast shift is definitely the same as the predecessors.

Yes that would be correct. It's also correct to say a new model # doesn't mean it's improved.

I'm the opposite. There is no reason to believe Dudeman until there's some more proof. There are many in this thread backing up that the panels are the same as before. Every review does as well. I've seen at least 3 different 20" 2009 iMacs in 3 different stores myself.

IN this case Dudeman needs to present some more proof. So far the evidence is stacked against him.

[JayLenochiniMac]

I've seen at least 3 different 20" 2009 iMacs in 3 different stores myself.

Doesn't mean anything, for those 3 different 20" 2009 iMacs could happen to have the LG.Philips panel and you were merely checking the same panel rather than comparing different panels (LG.Philips vs. AUO).

[trip1ex]

Doesn't mean anything, for those 3 different 20" 2009 iMacs could happen to have the LG.Philips panel and you were merely checking the same panel rather than comparing different panels (LG.Philips vs. AUO).

Means alot. What doesn't mean anything is one random guy on the internet saying something different from what everyone else sees with their own 2 eyes.

I say show some proof. Take pics from an extreme side angle. The dramatic color shift is easy to spot in stores. And it should show up well enough in a photo. That would at least be something.

[Canadian Bacon]

I have since addressed this issue with AppleCare. I explained to the local agent that my replacement unit had a different display than the first unit I was sent. My case was referred to a technical supervisor. I openly stated that the second unit had the 6-bit LG/Philips panel. They asked me how I knew this – and I specifically stated how to check the iMac’s display model. They then checked the serial number of the first unit (from my AppleCare case number) against the second unit’s number. I declined an offer to bring my iMac to an Apple service provider for the display to be checked for ‘defects’ – in which case a new display could be ordered, and asked to be transferred to someone who could solve this issue. My case was then escalated to the technical department in Ireland. When I was asked what I expected to happen, I stated that I had expected the replacement unit to have the same display as the first, and that I was still hoping to receive an iMac with the 8-bit AU Optronics panel, as I was disappointed with the comparative performance of the LG/Philips panel. I maintained that, as a consumer, although I cannot influence Apple’s decision to use two different manufacturers for the displays, I can surely influence whether I am satisfied with the display the iMac was assembled with. They told me that they could theoretically send me a new unit, but that as I had ordered from the online Apple Store, they have no influence on which display is built into a particular batch of iMacs coming off the production line at a given point in time. The supervisor specifically stated that it is impossible to interfere with the production process in order to ensure that an individual iMac is assembled with components according to specific customer wishes. In the end, as the technical supervisor could not guarantee a new replacement unit would come with the same panel as the first iMac, I accepted an offer of a full refund for this iMac. Under the circumstances, I feel this is a suitable solution, although it means, I will soon be iMac-less again.

Please note, not once did the technical supervisor contradict my claim that the two specific panel manufacturers and panel types mentioned were being used for the current 20” iMacs. Please draw your own conclusions from this.

[JayLenochiniMac]

In the end, as the technical supervisor could not guarantee a new replacement unit would come with the same panel as the first iMac, I accepted an offer of a full refund for this iMac. Under the circumstances, I feel this is a suitable solution, although it means, I will soon be iMac-less again.

Why be iMac-less? Order the 24" when you get your full refund and you won't have to play the panel lottery :cool:

[Canadian Bacon]

Why be iMac-less? Order the 24" when you get your full refund and you won't have to play the panel lottery :cool:

You're probably right. If only I weren't so adamant about the 20" being the perfect size for my desk. I guess I'm just making it hard on myself. :(

[trip1ex]

You don't even know if your first iMac had a different panel. I think the speculation upon the speculation has gone too far. Let's see some proof.

[rjp]

Interesting:

Here are the specs for your panel.

http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/... .../download.jsp?fileName=LG_Philips_LCD.PDF

Try this site and see what it says since your panel uses 6-bit dithering with FRC to achieve 8bit colors.

http://www.webdoodles.org/pages/screentest.htm

INteresting. When I go to this site from a 24" imac it says color depth = 24, but when I go from a 20" imac is says color depth = 32. So I guess it's saying the 20 panels have 10.5 bits per color ;-) Ha ha.

Meaningless site.

[The Hammer]

You're probably right. If only I weren't so adamant about the 20" being the perfect size for my desk. I guess I'm just making it hard on myself. :(I feel your pain. I would like a 24" top of the line iMac because of the better graphics options but because the iMac isn't height adjustable a 20" will have to do.

[iamthedudeman]

The first link shows that the AU M201EW02 VC panel comes with 4 backlights. The other AU panels list 6 backlights. The panel that ifixit looked at also had 4 backlights. Coincidence? Any thoughts?

Well that why I think that the "VF' may be the "C' with a designiaton of "VF' specifically for Apple.

[iamthedudeman]

Yes, and 92% color gamut too!

Lucky.

Of course the "VF" version may be a special 6-bit model made for Apple imacs for all we know.

None of the current AU M201EW02 models are 6-bit. This is confirmed by the above link and also AUO stating to me that "we do not use dithering in any of our 2009 panels'.

[iamthedudeman]

?

I looked at the monitor with my own 2 eyes.


And when it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck.

You're ignoring all the visits folks made to stores to see with their own 2 eyes that the panel is the same as the previous generation (walks like a duck) and you are ignoring all the reviews that back this up as well (quacks like a duck.)

Instead you are incorrectly assuming a different model # on the lcd means something other than a different model number.

The rest of us are counting the horse's teeth by walking up to the horse and opening up his mouth and looking at the teeth themselves.

I just posted a link for all of the AUO 20.1 monitors in production all with different specs. Of coarse they are all the same "model family' I already said this numerous times. But they have different "designations'.

There is a difference. A family of products with different 'designations' mean that they all are the same "model' with different or improved specs or specs that are manufacturer specific. This is confirmed by this link:

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

Notice that the specs are quite different between the M201EW02 V0-V8 and the M201EW02 VC. Here are all the different 'designations' of the same 'model.

M201EW02 V0
M201EW02 V1
M201EW02 V2
M201EW02 V8
M201EW02 V9
M201EW02 VB
M201EW02 VC

Now notice how the M201EW02 V0-V8 specs are very different from the M201EW02 VC. From the above link. Now I have a M201EW02 VF panel. The VC and the VF are most likely the "same' panel. With the 'VF" being exclusive to Apple.

The 'designatons' with a "number' most likely have the same specs. As you can see here:

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

The numbers most likely indicate a different part number, or a panel for a specific manufacturer.

The ones ending in a "letter' most likely have different specs. There is a complete difference between the models here that end in a "number' as opposed to a 'letter'.

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=


Your assuming that I am the only person who sees a difference when that is not true. There are numerous people on this site, as well as others that stated that the 2009 models in general are "too bright'. I have already posted a link in this thread to the info. So you're the one ignoring the facts. Not me. I owned a late model 2008 20 and now own a 2009 20' so I guess I am crazy and you're right and I am wrong.

The 2009 models have different manufactures for the panel with different specs. AUO makes one panel that is 8-bit, LG makes the other that is 6-bit with FRC. That is a big difference.

[iamthedudeman]

I have since addressed this issue with AppleCare. I explained to the local agent that my replacement unit had a different display than the first unit I was sent. My case was referred to a technical supervisor. I openly stated that the second unit had the 6-bit LG/Philips panel. They asked me how I knew this – and I specifically stated how to check the iMac’s display model. They then checked the serial number of the first unit (from my AppleCare case number) against the second unit’s number. I declined an offer to bring my iMac to an Apple service provider for the display to be checked for ‘defects’ – in which case a new display could be ordered, and asked to be transferred to someone who could solve this issue. My case was then escalated to the technical department in Ireland. When I was asked what I expected to happen, I stated that I had expected the replacement unit to have the same display as the first, and that I was still hoping to receive an iMac with the 8-bit AU Optronics panel, as I was disappointed with the comparative performance of the LG/Philips panel. I maintained that, as a consumer, although I cannot influence Apple’s decision to use two different manufacturers for the displays, I can surely influence whether I am satisfied with the display the iMac was assembled with. They told me that they could theoretically send me a new unit, but that as I had ordered from the online Apple Store, they have no influence on which display is built into a particular batch of iMacs coming off the production line at a given point in time. The supervisor specifically stated that it is impossible to interfere with the production process in order to ensure that an individual iMac is assembled with components according to specific customer wishes. In the end, as the technical supervisor could not guarantee a new replacement unit would come with the same panel as the first iMac, I accepted an offer of a full refund for this iMac. Under the circumstances, I feel this is a suitable solution, although it means, I will soon be iMac-less again.

Please note, not once did the technical supervisor contradict my claim that the two specific panel manufacturers and panel types mentioned were being used for the current 20” iMacs. Please draw your own conclusions from this.

I know I am reaching here, but this could be very interesting.

If I am not mistaken, Apple uses two different Model numbers for the 2009 imac.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1758

MB417XX/A iMac (20-inch, Early 2009)
MC019XX/A iMac (20-inch, Early 2009)

Can one model number coincide with what panel are in each?

My model number is MB417LL/A. Hence the model family of MB417XX/A. Could these models use the AUO 8-bit panels? What was your last model number that you sent back if you suspect that it had a better looking screen. If may mean nothing but if you also had a MB417XX/A we may be onto something here.

Or maybe not. Worth a shot.

[iamthedudeman]

I can make that claim. I said a different panel number doesn't mean it is improved.

Dudeman's whole claim in based on a different #.

While the rest of us have all confirmed, by looking with our own 2 eyes, at many more iMacs than Dudeman has, that the new 20" iMac has the same panel. All reviews of the new iMacs have also backed this up.

Is there a chance Dudeman is right? Sure there's a chance. Just like Jim Carrey had a chance in Dumb & Dumber.

But the burden of proof is on him because he has the million to one odds. Not on me or anyone else saying that the panels are the same.

Show me the money. Dudeman can take pics to back up his claim. A couple from extreme angles from the side. And a couple of pics from a fixed position showing the title bar at the top and at the bottom of the screen.

Funny how he has the proof in front of him, but instead is speculating on model numbers.



How do you know how many imacs I have looked at? To state such a claim is a joke. Your making a fool of yourself.

How can imacs with with different panels from different manufactures be the same. Please explain this to me. I would really like to hear it.


It is confirmed that the new imacs use different panels. One a 8-bit one a 6-bit with FRC. This is a fact.

I am lying to you. My screen looks horrible. Lol.

Million to one odds.

"Show me the money. Dudeman can take pics to back up his claim. A couple from extreme angles from the side. And a couple of pics from a fixed position showing the title bar at the top and at the bottom of the screen."

Ok. Consider yourself owned.

I stated that there was not a difference in color from the sides but there is at the bottom.

Here is your proof. Two extreme shots from the sides showing no color shift, one from the bottom showing the color shift as stated. And one straight one for ownage.

[tms568]

Hi Guys.
Starting this thread I didn't thought of bringing up such a wide discussion. The "panel question" seems to be interesting to a lot of people ;-)

So, yesterday I've got my imac 20' from mactrade (german distributor) as build to order model. First of all I checked the model figures with the terminal method an run a dead pixel test. Thank god there are no dead pixel at all and the model number is:

manufacturer: 0610
model number: 9C96
model: M201EW02 VF

That would mean I'm, together with dudeman, the second person with this "maybe better" display. I will check the other model number (MB417XX/A, MC019XX/A) as well - were do I find this number on my imac?

Refering to the display quality I can underline dudeman's opinion. There is a minimal contrast shift from the sides, good viewing angles and of course a shift if you go up and down. For me, I'm very happy with this display ;-)

@ dudeman: Do you have changed the display settings to get an even better result? Can you please post the setting - I have no special programs or expert know-how to optimize the display/colours. Thanx !!

[iamthedudeman]

Hi Guys.
Starting this thread I didn't thought of bringing up such a wide discussion. The "panel question" seems to be interesting to a lot of people ;-)

So, yesterday I've got my imac 20' from mactrade (german distributor) as build to order model. First of all I checked the model figures with the terminal method an run a dead pixel test. Thank god there are no dead pixel at all and the model number is:

manufacturer: 0610
model number: 9C96
model: M201EW02 VF

That would mean I'm, together with dudeman, the second person with this "maybe better" display. I will check the other model number (MB417XX/A, MC019XX/A) as well - were do I find this number on my imac?

Refering to the display quality I can underline dudeman's opinion. There is a minimal contrast shift from the sides, good viewing angles and of course a shift if you go up and down. For me, I'm very happy with this display ;-)

@ dudeman: Do you have changed the display settings to get an even better result? Can you please post the setting - I have no special programs or expert know-how to optimize the display/colours. Thanx !!

You can find your model number right on the box. No doubt about it the panel you and I have is a better panel.

As far as the display settings. Mine is stock, no adjustments so far. I don't think I need to as I am happy with the settings as is.

Thanks for posting. It would be interesting to know if you have the same model as me. And if canadian B had the same one we may have something here.

[Canadian Bacon]

So, yesterday I've got my imac 20' from mactrade (german distributor) as build to order model. First of all I checked the model figures with the terminal method an run a dead pixel test. Thank god there are no dead pixel at all and the model number is:

manufacturer: 0610
model number: 9C96
model: M201EW02 VF

That would mean I'm, together with dudeman, the second person with this "maybe better" display. I will check the other model number (MB417XX/A, MC019XX/A) as well - were do I find this number on my imac?

I can't find these MB/MC numbers ANYWHERE, either on the box of the 2nd unit, or in my order invoices or emails from the Apple Online Store. The only part number, which was the same for both iMacs, appeared on the box and the invoices: ZOFN00164, model number: A1224

Both units were shipped from:
Foxconn Technology CZ, s.r.o
Karlov 245
284 01 Kutna Hora
Czech Republic

Edit: When I configure a CTO 20"er on the German Apple Store website, this part number appears in the browser's address bar: http://store.apple.com/de/configure/MB417D/A?mco=NDE4NDI4MA
Also, under Apple's 'technical specifications', only this number is listed under the picture of the 20" model: (MB417*/A)

[rjp]

How do you know how many imacs I have looked at? To state such a claim is a joke. Your making a fool of yourself.

How can imacs with with different panels from different manufactures be the same. Please explain this to me. I would really like to hear it.


It is confirmed that the new imacs use different panels. One a 8-bit one a 6-bit with FRC. This is a fact.

I am lying to you. My screen looks horrible. Lol.

Million to one odds.

"Show me the money. Dudeman can take pics to back up his claim. A couple from extreme angles from the side. And a couple of pics from a fixed position showing the title bar at the top and at the bottom of the screen."

Ok. Consider yourself owned.

I stated that there was not a difference in color from the sides but there is at the bottom.

Here is your proof. Two extreme shots from the sides showing no color shift, one from the bottom showing the color shift as stated. And one straight one for ownage.

Iamthedudeman,

Thanks for taking the trouble to post pictures, but I am afraid that in this case they show nothing other than the fact that you definitely have a TN monitor, which you already knew.

All of the TN monitors used in the 20" imac show the exact same effect that your images demonstrate. I explained this already on this thread.

You should see no color shift from the sides, and extreme color shift from top and bottom. From the sides the colors should hold pretty much steady but become washed out with low contrast exactly as shown in your photos.

Sorry you went through the trouble for nothing. I can not think of any photo you could possibly post that would prove you have a superior monitor.

If you were able to get side by side photos of your imac and another imac that does not have the superior panel then we could possibly observe the relative difference between the two. But all I see in your photos is an imac monitor that looks and behaves just like mine. And I have the LG, philips 6 bit.

[trip1ex]

Dudeman,

Unfortunately for you,

The color shift you show by taking a pic from the bottom proves the 20" monitor you have has the same subtle color shift from top to bottom that everyone complains about in every other 20" iMac. So the panel is not better in that regard. This is probably the biggest complaint from folks on this site regarding the 20" iMac panel.

And unfortunately your side pics are too washed out to judge the color shift from an extreme side viewing angle. Not all colors shift from the side. edit: actually the washout is probably the effect of the TN panel like rjp said above. It does get more washed out from the side.

Apple's specs say the viewing angle (of the 20" iMacs) is less than the 24" iMacs and the same as the previous gen 20" iMacs..... So Apple itself says the side angle is still just as bad.

Still maybe you can take some higher quality photos from the side angle?


Use a different color too. That tan color you have on your screen is the color the 20" iMacs shift to when looking at them from an extreme angle at least when the screen is white.

Take a picture of the screen with all white or as much white as possible (a webpage with alot of white in the background is fine) from a straight on angle and then take a picture of it from an extreme angle like you did above. But you'll have to work on making the extreme angle pictures more clear. And work on not losing the color to the background lighting.

I'm all for being owned if it means getting to the bottom of things. Unfortunately I think you've owned yourself here.

Note: I don't think the monitor is bad. I think it's very good. It's just not excellent. I ordered a 20" iMac last night for my wife. If I used the thing from extreme angles I would say it's a terrible monitor. But I don't. And I don't think most people do.

[iamthedudeman]

Iamthedudeman,

Thanks for taking the trouble to post pictures, but I am afraid that in this case they show nothing other than the fact that you definitely have a TN monitor, which you already knew.

All of the TN monitors used in the 20" imac show the exact same effect that your images demonstrate. I explained this already on this thread.

You should see no color shift from the sides, and extreme color shift from top and bottom. From the sides the colors should hold pretty much steady but become washed out with low contrast exactly as shown in your photos.

Sorry you went through the trouble for nothing. I can not think of any photo you could possibly post that would prove you have a superior monitor.

If you were able to get side by side photos of your imac and another imac that does not have the superior panel then we could possibly observe the relative difference between the two. But all I see in your photos is an imac monitor that looks and behaves just like mine. And I have the LG, philips 6 bit.

Actually from the sides, the colors are not washed out. From the pics you can clearly see the colors do not change, the wash effect is from the high gloss and the flash from the camera. From the sides you can clearly see the screen and the colors remain the same. From the bottom is a different story.

Try taking a picture of a 24' from the same angle, you will get the same wash out effect as my 20' from the flash and high gloss screen.
My main focus by posting the pictures was to show that the colors remain the same.

Seeing it close up is a different story. Pics do not do it justice. My 2008 mac from the side you could not see anything, it was totally washed out. My 2009 does not have this problem.

I will try again once I figure to reduce the gloss from ruining the picture.

[iamthedudeman]

Dudeman,

Unfortunately for you,

The color shift you show by taking a pic from the bottom proves the 20" monitor you have has the same subtle color shift from top to bottom that everyone complains about in every other 20" iMac. So the panel is not better in that regard. This is probably the biggest complaint from folks on this site regarding the 20" iMac panel.

And unfortunately your side pics are too washed out to judge the color shift from an extreme side viewing angle. Not all colors shift from the side. edit: actually the washout is probably the effect of the TN panel like rjp said above. It does get more washed out from the side.

Apple's specs say the viewing angle (of the 20" iMacs) is less than the 24" iMacs and the same as the previous gen 20" iMacs..... So Apple itself says the side angle is still just as bad.

Still maybe you can take some higher quality photos from the side angle?


Use a different color too. That tan color you have on your screen is the color the 20" iMacs shift to when looking at them from an extreme angle at least when the screen is white.

Take a picture of the screen with all white or as much white as possible (a webpage with alot of white in the background is fine) from a straight on angle and then take a picture of it from an extreme angle like you did above. But you'll have to work on making the extreme angle pictures more clear. And work on not losing the color to the background lighting.

I'm all for being owned if it means getting to the bottom of things. Unfortunately I think you've owned yourself here.

Note: I don't think the monitor is bad. I think it's very good. It's just not excellent. I ordered a 20" iMac last night for my wife. If I used the thing from extreme angles I would say it's a terrible monitor. But I don't. And I don't think most people do.

How about the google home page, that should work. I will try your suggestions. As far as owning myself, yes the photos are bad, but the damn high gloss makes it ipossible to get a good shot.

[Canadian Bacon]

Seeing it close up is a different story. Pics do not do it justice. My 2008 mac from the side you could not see anything, it was totally washed out. My 2009 does not have this problem.

For what it's worth, I took some pics of my 2nd unit with the LG panel before I packed it up, but I didn't use the colour shift grid (4 coloured boxes) to do it. However, my first reaction on seeing dudeman's pics was: "this iMac on my desk doesn't look as good as his does at those angles." - My first one did though (read: subjective recollection). Also, I'm confident I can confirm the judgement: "Seeing it close up is a different story." On my first unit, the dock icons' edges were as smooth as I remember them being on the 24" model. Not so on MY 2nd one. And all the wallpaper photos didn't look half as real on the 2nd unit. They all looked grainy, and pardon the pun, computer-generated.

So, just thinking out loud...what if someone else were to reproduce dudeman's pics using the 4-square color grid, and a shot of the white turning to tan color shift on a LG-panel iMac, and post them to make a comparison of the degree of washout, colour shift etc? Unfortunately, my pics wouldn't be ideal for this purpose, or I'd do it myself. And before I get blasted for suggesting that...I know it is difficult to reproduce the lighting conditions, exact viewing angles he used, and to take into account different cameras taking the pics, etc., etc., etc.

[iamthedudeman]

Dudeman,

Unfortunately for you,

The color shift you show by taking a pic from the bottom proves the 20" monitor you have has the same subtle color shift from top to bottom that everyone complains about in every other 20" iMac. So the panel is not better in that regard. This is probably the biggest complaint from folks on this site regarding the 20" iMac panel.

And unfortunately your side pics are too washed out to judge the color shift from an extreme side viewing angle. Not all colors shift from the side. edit: actually the washout is probably the effect of the TN panel like rjp said above. It does get more washed out from the side.

Apple's specs say the viewing angle (of the 20" iMacs) is less than the 24" iMacs and the same as the previous gen 20" iMacs..... So Apple itself says the side angle is still just as bad.

Still maybe you can take some higher quality photos from the side angle?


Use a different color too. That tan color you have on your screen is the color the 20" iMacs shift to when looking at them from an extreme angle at least when the screen is white.

Take a picture of the screen with all white or as much white as possible (a webpage with alot of white in the background is fine) from a straight on angle and then take a picture of it from an extreme angle like you did above. But you'll have to work on making the extreme angle pictures more clear. And work on not losing the color to the background lighting.

I'm all for being owned if it means getting to the bottom of things. Unfortunately I think you've owned yourself here.

Note: I don't think the monitor is bad. I think it's very good. It's just not excellent. I ordered a 20" iMac last night for my wife. If I used the thing from extreme angles I would say it's a terrible monitor. But I don't. And I don't think most people do.

Well I don't think that any pictures I post will do the justice for seeing it for yourself. The color saturation and brightness and angle are all superior to the previous panel I had on the 2008 model. Here are somemore pics from my iphone since it doesn't have flash. The white was maybe a bad idea, from straight on. Too much interference.

Here they are:

[rjp]

Dudeman,

I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm trying to say. The 4-color test is only to be used to reveal color shifts from top to bottom.

You should not expect any LCD screen to show color shifts from left to right.

The fact that yours does not shift left to right in not remarkable. It is normal.

All LCD screens will start to appear washed out at extreme angles left and right, even the 24 shows this.

The only way you will ever "prove" anything is to have two monitors side by side, same camera, same lighting.

You know what I'm thinking now, you just had a bad 2008 model. Your current pics look the same as my 2007.

[iamthedudeman]

Dudeman,

I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm trying to say. The 4-color test is only to be used to reveal color shifts from top to bottom.

You should not expect any LCD screen to show color shifts from left to right.

The fact that yours does not shift left to right in not remarkable. It is normal.

All LCD screens will start to appear washed out at extreme angles left and right, even the 24 shows this.

The only way you will ever "prove" anything is to have two monitors side by side, same camera, same lighting.

You know what I'm thinking now, you just had a bad 2008 model. Your current pics look the same as my 2007.

I know what you're saying. I am trying to show that there is not a 'washout' effect when looking from a angle. Not color. And on a 6-bit panel with "dithering' you will get that effect.

My panel does not have that effect. My last panel did. My last panel looked good, just not as good as the one I have. Take some pics from the side or look at your panel from the side. You will get my meaning.

My 24' at work does not have that effect. It does not become 'washed out' at angles. My 2009 does not become washedout at angles. My 2008 panel became 'washed out' at angles. There was nothing wrong with my 2008 panel. One panel is 8 bit with true color one is not. It's as simple as that.

You will see a 'mirroring' effect' and your panel will appear "washed out' with a 6-bit panel.

Take some pics and post them to get my meaning.

[iamthedudeman]

Here is a pic of a 6-bit panel even without a gloss screen. This is my daughter's dell. Notice the 'washout' effect or mirroring effect. My last 2008 had this same problem. Now compare that to my 2009 imac.

[Moriarty]

Looks like the Dell's screen brightness is set a lot lower to me.

[rjp]

Looks like the Dell's screen brightness is set a lot lower to me.

In addition to the brightness difference, what you are demonstrating here is the difference between matte and glossy.

[iamthedudeman]

In addition to the brightness difference, what you are demonstrating here is the difference between matte and glossy.

Well the brightness level is set to the same, in addition a glossy screen when viewed from the side should show a "mirror effect' if it is a 6-bit panel, as does this dell panel.

when viewed straight on the dell is as bright as my imac.

A easy way to settle this would be to have someone with a LG panel imac to submit a pic similar to mine. That would solve this easily.

In Addition. the facts as we know them are:

There are two manufactures of panels for the 2009 imacs. As in previous years.

The panels in question are the LM201WE3 which is a LG and a AUO M201EW02 VF. Here are the specs for each:

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?pan=LM201WE3

The M201EW02 VF is not listed here so we can surmise that of all the 2009 panels in production which there are three. A V8, a VO and a VC. of all of the ones listed the VC matches the AUO panel in the ifixit article tear down. With it having "four backlights'.

"As we mentioned earlier, this iMac still uses an LCD with a CCFL backlight. This particular display features four backlights, each of which require their own high-voltage AC power."

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/iMac-20-Inch/658/2

The only panel in production for 2009 for AUO that has four backlights is the 'VC' version. Also the "VC' also has a contrast ratio of 1000:1 same as the LM201WE3. I highly doubt that Apple would use panels with two different contrast ratio's. Here are the panels is question:

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

Now what we are essentially comparing here is a panel from two manufactures. One a 6-bit panel and one a 8-bit panel.

A 8 bit panel would have a higher viewing angle and show colors more accurately. This is a big discrepancy in the 2009's panels. As well as previous years. Some using 8-bit and some using 6-bit with FRC. Here is a good article explaining the issue.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/6bit_8bit.htm#8bit%20TN

So what you're basically saying that the 2007 panel that you have is no different that a 2009 regardless of who makes that panel. If so you're ignoring the facts. If that is what you want to believe, thats your prerogative. You would be ignoring the facts, no question.

[rjp]

Well the brightness level is set to the same, in addition a glossy screen when viewed from the side should show a "mirror effect' if it is a 6-bit panel, as does this dell panel.

when viewed straight on the dell is as bright as my imac.

A easy way to settle this would be to have someone with a LG panel imac to submit a pic similar to mine. That would solve this easily.

In Addition. the facts as we know them are:

There are two manufactures of panels for the 2009 imacs. As in previous years.

The panels in question are the LM201WE3 which is a LG and a AUO M201EW02 VF. Here are the specs for each:

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?pan=LM201WE3

The M201EW02 VF is not listed here so we can surmise that of all the 2009 panels in production which there are three. A V8, a VO and a VC. of all of the ones listed the VC matches the AUO panel in the ifixit article tear down. With it having "four backlights'.

"As we mentioned earlier, this iMac still uses an LCD with a CCFL backlight. This particular display features four backlights, each of which require their own high-voltage AC power."

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/iMac-20-Inch/658/2

The only panel in production for 2009 for AUO that has four backlights is the 'VC' version. Also the "VC' also has a contrast ratio of 1000:1 same as the LM201WE3. I highly doubt that Apple would use panels with two different contrast ratio's. Here are the panels is question:

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

Now what we are essentially comparing here is a panel from two manufactures. One a 6-bit panel and one a 8-bit panel.

A 8 bit panel would have a higher viewing angle and show colors more accurately. This is a big discrepancy in the 2009's panels. As well as previous years. Some using 8-bit and some using 6-bit with FRC. Here is a good article explaining the issue.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/6bit_8bit.htm#8bit%20TN

So what you're basically saying that the 2007 panel that you have is no different that a 2009 regardless of who makes that panel. If so you're ignoring the facts. If that is what you want to believe, thats your prerogative. You would be ignoring the facts, no question.

I'm not ignoring any facts. I hear all your facts any I'm weighing them as carefully as I can. So far, you seem to be the only one with one of these special 20" panels. Maybe as time goes on others will pos their panel numbers and we'll see how widespead this is.

But so far, I don't see anything about your display that looks any different than mine. If it is the panel you suspect and really is 8 bits, that's great. Good for you. You are lucky. That panel also has a 92% gamut! Do you understand just how significant that is? The other panels in the 20" imacs have around 76% color gamut. If I were Apple, and I offered a monitor with an incredible 92% gamut, you can be darn sure I'd advertise this fact!

Maybe they just got a hold of a handful of these higher quality screens and you lucked out in getting one. Or maybe you're making the whole thing up? So far your's looks no different than any other 20" imac screen I've seen, and you seem to be the only person possessing the AUO version if I'm not mistaken. (Well, you and Mr ifixit) Have there been any others?

[Canadian Bacon]

So far, you seem to be the only one with one of these special 20" panels. Maybe as time goes on others will pos their panel numbers and we'll see how widespead this is.

Or maybe you're making the whole thing up? So far your's looks no different than any other 20" imac screen I've seen, and you seem to be the only person possessing the AUO version if I'm not mistaken. (Well, you and Mr ifixit) Have there been any others?

Go to page 6 of this thread, post #137: tms568, the threadstarter stated he has this AU panel.

[Canadian Bacon]

But so far, I don't see anything about your display that looks any different than mine. If it is the panel you suspect and really is 8 bits, that's great. Good for you. You are lucky. That panel also has a 92% gamut! Do you understand just how significant that is? The other panels in the 20" imacs have around 76% color gamut. If I were Apple, and I offered a monitor with an incredible 92% gamut, you can be darn sure I'd advertise this fact!

That is a logical supposition, unless e.g. (just conjecture):

a) apple had only limited inventory of this panel which could not meet customer demand after the iMac update
b) there were quality issues with (batches of) this panel causing them to initially revert to using a different (previous) panel
c) apple felt there was no perceptible difference between the two panels
d) something else

[rjp]

Go to page 6 of this thread, post #137: tms568, the threadstarter stated he has this AU panel.

Thank you for the correction. So yes, there are at least two people reporting having this panel. It would be useful to get a larger sample if more people would try the terminal method and report.

So far we have no conclusive information as to whether this is a 6 or 8 bit panel since the model is not listed on AUO. I think there are screen test available that can determine this using gradients. The 6 bit version should have more banding. I will try to locate one.

Yes, quite possible Apple put these in just a few units and so did not mention it.

[mysterygirl]

Hi everyone,
I'm a first time poster and have been following this thread for several weeks. I have a two-week old 20' alu imac (2009) and think I may be able to clear up at least some of the confusion. Here are the specs of my imac:

1) Panel number is LM201WE3 (like most all posters at this point; different from dudeman)
2) Model number is MB417LL/A (same as dudeman)
3) I've done the color swatches test several times now, and the panel looks exactly the same as dudeman's. No color shift from the sides, but very obvious from the bottom (and top).

Based on dudeman's images, I don't have any reason to believe his panel is any different in quality from my own (since mine looks EXACTLY the same).

I've been following the thread because I've been debating seriously whether or not I could live with the 20 inch. The panel is BEAUTIFUL in almost every way, and I don't do graphic design, movie editing, etc, so am not engaged in any activity that requires extreme accuracy in color representation. However, the shift is obvious to me, even looking straight on at the computer (I can see that "whites" are different from top to bottom). I've been trying to get used to it for the last couple of weeks and have pretty much decided to keep the computer. It would have cost me $350 more (I got an additional discount on the 20inch) for the 24 inch, so I think I've decided I'd rather roll that money into something else (I'll buy more RAM, then think about getting either an ipod touch or a great pair of speakers...or even better, maybe I'll just get a flat-panel TV and save the TV viewing for a real dedicated item!).

It's been a tough decision, but at the end of the day, the 20in is a great computer and fits my needs. However, it does have color shift, and the theory about different model #s corresponding to different panel quality doesn't hold up. Additionally, my panel (with a different part # and manufacturer) behaves exactly as dudeman's, leading me to believe there's no difference in the quality of the two panel types.

Hope this helps. Again, the 20inch is a great computer. It pains me somewhat not to have the 24inch, but at the end of the day, it's not a necessity for my life and I can envision other uses for that $$.

[trip1ex]

Pics only proved that the this new panel model # still has the top to bottom contrast shift. Pretty much means it is a 6-bit panel.

[rjp]

Hi everyone,
I'm a first time poster and have been following this thread for several weeks. I have a two-week old 20' alu imac (2009) and think I may be able to clear up at least some of the confusion. Here are the specs of my imac:

1) Panel number is LM201WE3 (like most all posters at this point; different from dudeman)
2) Model number is MB417LL/A (same as dudeman)
3) I've done the color swatches test several times now, and the panel looks exactly the same as dudeman's. No color shift from the sides, but very obvious from the bottom (and top).

Based on dudeman's images, I don't have any reason to believe his panel is any different in quality from my own (since mine looks EXACTLY the same).

I've been following the thread because I've been debating seriously whether or not I could live with the 20 inch. The panel is BEAUTIFUL in almost every way, and I don't do graphic design, movie editing, etc, so am not engaged in any activity that requires extreme accuracy in color representation. However, the shift is obvious to me, even looking straight on at the computer (I can see that "whites" are different from top to bottom). I've been trying to get used to it for the last couple of weeks and have pretty much decided to keep the computer. It would have cost me $350 more (I got an additional discount on the 20inch) for the 24 inch, so I think I've decided I'd rather roll that money into something else (I'll buy more RAM, then think about getting either an ipod touch or a great pair of speakers...or even better, maybe I'll just get a flat-panel TV and save the TV viewing for a real dedicated item!).

It's been a tough decision, but at the end of the day, the 20in is a great computer and fits my needs. However, it does have color shift, and the theory about different model #s corresponding to different panel quality doesn't hold up. Additionally, my panel (with a different part # and manufacturer) behaves exactly as dudeman's, leading me to believe there's no difference in the quality of the two panel types.

Hope this helps. Again, the 20inch is a great computer. It pains me somewhat not to have the 24inch, but at the end of the day, it's not a necessity for my life and I can envision other uses for that $$.

Thanks for chiming it. Appreciate your input very much.

I also feel the 20" imac is a wonderful display. Like you, I have been torn between the 20 and 24. Yes, the 24 is obviously better, but this 20 is absolutely beautiful too! We forget this in these threads since the people most motivated to post are typically the ones who are unhappy. But hey, let me give credit where it's due, and it's due here.

I mean, this has got to be the most beautiful display I've ever seen! (At least when I'm looking directly at it).

Still can't decide if I want to pay 200 more for the 24" (refurbs here).

I'm actually afraid it might seem too massive.

[JayLenochiniMac]

Still can't decide if I want to pay 200 more for the 24" (refurbs here).

I'm actually afraid it might seem too massive.

Nonsense. You'll get used to it. I move between my 24" at home and the 20" at work daily, and I never think the 24" is too large nor the 20" too small.

[iamthedudeman]

Pics only proved that the this new panel model # still has the top to bottom contrast shift. Pretty much means it is a 6-bit panel.

You don't pay attention much do you? AUO 20.1 panels are all 8 bit. I have proven as much with the links I posted. If you have some hard info proving otherwise please post it.

[iamthedudeman]

Thank you for the correction. So yes, there are at least two people reporting having this panel. It would be useful to get a larger sample if more people would try the terminal method and report.

So far we have no conclusive information as to whether this is a 6 or 8 bit panel since the model is not listed on AUO. I think there are screen test available that can determine this using gradients. The 6 bit version should have more banding. I will try to locate one.

Yes, quite possible Apple put these in just a few units and so did not mention it.

There are thousands of people with this panel. Believe it or not not everyone who owns a mac is on this site.

"So far we have no conclusive information as to whether this is a 6 or 8 bit panel since the model is not listed on AUO."

Thats just a weak excuse. C'mon RJP. The model listed on ifixit.com and the teardown had four back lights. There is only one model of AUO 20.1 panel with four back lights and that is the "C'. Furthermore there is not a panel in AUO current production of 20.1 panels with a 6-bit panel. please find me one.

[CrankinJland]

Just checked my panel # using Terminal;
I have M201EW02 VF

The above is the number for my Alu iMac 20" 2009.
I have two other 20" Alu iMacs, my kid's 2008 (spring)
And the wife's 20" Alu iMac 2007 (summer)

I will check the other two numbers after I get through work.
Cheers.

[trip1ex]

You don't pay attention much do you? AUO 20.1 panels are all 8 bit. I have proven as much with the links I posted. If you have some hard info proving otherwise please post it.

My hard proof is in those pictures you posted. They show that the panel still has the contrast shift from top to bottom which was the biggest complaint about the 20" from what I remember.

So it is kind of a moot point now.

[JayLenochiniMac]

My hard proof is in those pictures you posted. They show that the panel still has the contrast shift from top to bottom which was the biggest complaint about the 20" from what I remember.


Doesn't say whether it's 6 or 8 bit though, just that it's a TN panel.

[trip1ex]

Doesn't say whether it's 6 or 8 bit though, just that it's a TN panel.

It doesn't say it is 10-bit either.

Contrast shift says it all.

[rjp]

It doesn't say it is 10-bit either.

Contrast shift says it all.

Are you sure about that? I thought it was the TN technology that caused the contrast shift, not the number of bits per color.

[trip1ex]

Are you sure about that? I thought it was the TN technology that caused the contrast shift, not the number of bits per color.

Anyone who doesn't care about the contrast shift will hardly care if the panel is 8-bit vs 6-bit. OR so it seems to me.

[trip1ex]

For what it is worth, based on what I've read TN panels are only 6-bit. And only achieve more colors through various techniques like dithering or FRC.

Manufacturers are listing more TN panels as 8-bit now or achieving 16.7 million colors, but again from what I read it seems like this is due to advanced techniques along the lines of dithering and FRC. At least I haven't seen any sources that reassure there are actual 8-bit TN panels.

[trip1ex]

Just got my new 2009 20" iMac. panel # M201EW02 VF

and

~: user trip1eX has been disconnected

[trip1ex]

Technical difficulty.

New panel is sweet. Just as good as 24". Obviously 8-bit. Contrast shift is minimal. I guess I won the panel lottery. Just as Dudeman said. I guess I was owned.


Now I have a few other problems though.

First, my dvd drive burps every 5-10 minutes with no disc in it. The sound is basically a second or two of what you hear when you put in a disc. It is like the drive senses a disc being inserted, starts up for a second or so and then quickly stops. I've heard this 10x or so since I got this thing yesterday. It's a fake starup noise. :)

Also fans seem a bit faster and louder. Computer is far from hot on the back. Matter of fact super cool compared to my previous iMacs. Maybe these fan speeds are why.

1200 rpm cpu
1600 rpm hard drive
1350 rpm optical.

The 24" had 1200 cpu fan going all the time. But optical and hard drive were at least 400-500rpms slower.

[rjp]

Technical difficulty.

New panel is sweet. Just as good as 24". Obviously 8-bit. Contrast shift is minimal. I guess I won the panel lottery. Just as Dudeman said. I guess I was owned.


Now I have a few other problems though.

First, my dvd drive burps every 5-10 minutes with no disc in it. The sound is basically a second or two of what you hear when you put in a disc. It is like the drive senses a disc being inserted, starts up for a second or so and then quickly stops. I've heard this 10x or so since I got this thing yesterday. It's a fake starup noise. :)

Also fans seem a bit faster and louder. Computer is far from hot on the back. Matter of fact super cool compared to my previous iMacs. Maybe these fan speeds are why.

1200 rpm cpu
1600 rpm hard drive
1350 rpm optical.

The 24" had 1200 cpu fan going all the time. But optical and hard drive were at least 400-500rpms slower.


Huh? You had just written that you were convinced the contrast shift demonstrated in dudeman's pics indicated it was a 6 bit panel. How can you now say it is as good as the 24"?

trip1ex wrote:
">> My hard proof is in those pictures you posted. They show that the panel still has the contrast shift from top to bottom which was the biggest complaint about the 20" from what I remember..
>> Pics only proved that the this new panel model # still has the top to bottom contrast shift. Pretty much means it is a 6-bit panel. "

I have an application that I downloaded last year called LCDTest 1.0 that presents nice color gradient patterns on the mac screen. Using this I can see the difference between 6 bit and 8 bit colors on my imacs. The 8 bit is much smoother, whereas the 6 bit has more distinct banding. The 8 bit still has bands, but they are much finer and harder to see.

I wish I could give you a link to the app but all the links I find online today are down. Perhaps I could send the application itself if you'd like to try it.

Here is the link. Maybe you can get it to work. You want the gradient test.
http://azlan.anilezfa.com/mac-lcd-test-for-find-dead-pixels

This is the only way I know of to distinguish 6-bit from 8-bit panels.

[trip1ex]

I got owned I guess. He was right.

Wife likes the 20" size better too. Go figure. There is something to be said about everything concentrated right in front of you.

My iMac does this weird sound though every 5-10 minutes still. It just did it as I was typing. It sounds like the optical drive is faking a start up.

[JayLenochiniMac]

I got owned I guess. He was right.

Wife likes the 20" size better too. Go figure. There is something to be said about everything concentrated right in front of you.

My iMac does this weird sound though every 5-10 minutes still. It just did it as I was typing. It sounds like the optical drive is faking a start up.

Congrats on winning the panel lottery. Get it repaired rather than replaced as you won't want to play the lottery again.

[iamthedudeman]

Huh? You had just written that you were convinced the contrast shift demonstrated in dudeman's pics indicated it was a 6 bit panel. How can you now say it is as good as the 24"?

trip1ex wrote:
">> My hard proof is in those pictures you posted. They show that the panel still has the contrast shift from top to bottom which was the biggest complaint about the 20" from what I remember..
>> Pics only proved that the this new panel model # still has the top to bottom contrast shift. Pretty much means it is a 6-bit panel. "

I have an application that I downloaded last year called LCDTest 1.0 that presents nice color gradient patterns on the mac screen. Using this I can see the difference between 6 bit and 8 bit colors on my imacs. The 8 bit is much smoother, whereas the 6 bit has more distinct banding. The 8 bit still has bands, but they are much finer and harder to see.

I wish I could give you a link to the app but all the links I find online today are down. Perhaps I could send the application itself if you'd like to try it.

Here is the link. Maybe you can get it to work. You want the gradient test.
http://azlan.anilezfa.com/mac-lcd-test-for-find-dead-pixels

This is the only way I know of to distinguish 6-bit from 8-bit panels.

I just provided "proof' that this a 8-bit panel by listing every AUO 20.1 2009 panel in production on this thread and none of them list being a 6bit panel. Re-read my posts and you will see what I mean. If this thread was law and order, you would be in jail. Lol.

Further more ifixit tore down a 20 2009 imac with my panel and it had four back lights, same as the 2009 i listed.

Is it as good as a 24' probably not. Does it look as good to me. Yes it does. Does that mean it is. No

Glad to see that I am not crazy, Tri. What ever you do don't hand in your mac if there is a problem, get it fixed.

[trip1ex]

What speed does your hard drive and optical disc fan on the new 20" run at?

[Canadian Bacon]

I got owned I guess. He was right.

Wife likes the 20" size better too. Go figure. There is something to be said about everything concentrated right in front of you.

Congrats too from this camper on getting a nice panel. I just spent the last few weeks ignoring iMacs due to my frustration with this silly issue, but now I'm sort of thinking it might be time to try again. BTW - the 20" was perfect for me, too.

[Canadian Bacon]

Just checked my panel # using Terminal;
I have M201EW02 VF

The above is the number for my Alu iMac 20" 2009.
I have two other 20" Alu iMacs, my kid's 2008 (spring)
And the wife's 20" Alu iMac 2007 (summer)

I will check the other two numbers after I get through work.
Cheers.

Thanks for posting. So...did you check the panel numbers on the other iMacs you own? Just out of curiosity, if you have iMacs with different panels, do you see any subjective differences in panel quality? Thanks.

[iamthedudeman]

What speed does your hard drive and optical disc fan on the new 20" run at?

I seriously don't know. How do you tell? What program are you using to find out? Let me know and I will let you know.

[JayLenochiniMac]

I seriously don't know. How do you tell? What program are you using to find out? Let me know and I will let you know.

Most of us use iStat Pro.

[CrankinJland]

Thanks for posting. So...did you check the panel numbers on the other iMacs you own? Just out of curiosity, if you have iMacs with different panels, do you see any subjective differences in panel quality? Thanks.

Hi, sorry for being late in posting, I didn't realize this thread was still going.


2007 20" iMac
Warranty card details: iMac 20"/2.0GHZ/1GB/250GB/SD/AM/BT
*MA876J/A*
*W873109JX85*

Panel number (from Terminal) LM201WE3_TLF1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2008 20" iMac
Warranty card details: iMac 20"/2.66GHZ/2GB/320GB/SD/AP/BT
*MB324J/A*
*W881269EZE3*

Panel number (from Terminal) LM201WE3_TLF1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2009 20" iMac
Warranty card details: iMac 20"/2.66/2GB/320/SD/MSE/KB
*MB417J/A*
*W89069X40TF*

Panel number (from Terminal) M201EW02 VF
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for noticing any difference in quality between the three panels;
I'm no expert but the 2007 and 2008 models have slightly poorer quality (faded lower/darker upper screen) than the 2009 model.
Looking from the sides all three panels seem to show the same amber darkening effect, though it is a little less obvious on the 2009 model.
Looking straight at the screens, however, I can see no discernable difference.
To sum up; the 2009 (M201EW02 VF) looks somewhat superior, if I use it from a standing or lying position with my head tilted to the far right or left of the computer.
Cheers.

[Canadian Bacon]

Hi, sorry for being late in posting, I didn't realize this thread was still going.

Thanks for the info. No worries...this thread's a survivor, though, isn't it? :)

[iamthedudeman]

just to sum up:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/6bit_8bit.htm#8bit%20TN

The two models in question on the 2009 models are a AUO panel and a LG. The model number are as follows. M201EW02 VF and a LM201WE3.

Here are the specs for both. Now the VF isn't listed. But I am going to list all the AUO 2009 models in production. On the ifixit.com teardown article it states that the panel that they had four back lights, and a production date of 2009.

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/iMac-20-Inch/658/2



Most likely the "VF" is actually the "C" model. Notice that all the AUO panels are all 8-bit. What the 'VF' stands for as opposed to the "C' I don't know, maybe it is Apple specific.

Most likely the "VF" is actually the "C" model. Notice that all the AUO panels are all 8-bit. What the 'VF' stands for as opposed to the "C' I don't know, maybe it is Apple specific. The 'C' probably stands for Color, as in "HiColor Technology". This technology uses improved CCFL and LED backlighting for improved color gamuts. This is just speculation of coarse, but it makes sense, and the specs fit.

http://www.auo.com/auoDEV/technology.php?sec=HiColor


http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=LM201WE3&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

[trip1ex]

Most of us use iStat Pro.

Yes iStat Pro.

[iamthedudeman]

What speed does your hard drive and optical disc fan on the new 20" run at?

HD:1598
OD:1348

[rjp]

just to sum up:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/6bit_8bit.htm#8bit%20TN

The two models in question on the 2009 models are a AUO panel and a LG. The model number are as follows. M201EW02 VF and a LM201WE3.

Here are the specs for both. Now the VF isn't listed. But I am going to list all the AUO 2009 models in production. On the ifixit.com teardown article it states that the panel that they had four back lights, and a production date of 2009.

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/iMac-20-Inch/658/2



Most likely the "VF" is actually the "C" model. Notice that all the AUO panels are all 8-bit. What the 'VF' stands for as opposed to the "C' I don't know, maybe it is Apple specific.

Most likely the "VF" is actually the "C" model. Notice that all the AUO panels are all 8-bit. What the 'VF' stands for as opposed to the "C' I don't know, maybe it is Apple specific. The 'C' probably stands for Color, as in "HiColor Technology". This technology uses improved CCFL and LED backlighting for improved color gamuts. This is just speculation of coarse, but it makes sense, and the specs fit.

http://www.auo.com/auoDEV/technology.php?sec=HiColor


http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=LM201WE3&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

Pure speculation.

You have no idea if this is 6 or 8 bits. Why persist is spreading this rumor. Keep trying to get the facts and then post. I know you have tried, but if you keep digging you may find the answer eventually.

[trip1ex]

HD:1598
OD:1348

Oh same as me. I guess it is normal. Seems like they turned up the fans on the new ones.

Does your optical drive make a sound every once in awhile like it is activating or "parking" itself?

I usually hear mine once or twice in 30 minutes. And that is with no disc in it. Wife noticed it too so it is not subtle. It last a second or two.

Oh and CR gave the 20" display an "excellent" rating.

[iamthedudeman]

Pure speculation.

You have no idea if this is 6 or 8 bits. Why persist is spreading this rumor. Keep trying to get the facts and then post. I know you have tried, but if you keep digging you may find the answer eventually.

How are you coming to that conclusion? Is this even up for debate at this point? Really.

I provided more than enough facts.

Here are all the 2009 panels in production by AUO currently with the model designation M201EW02. As of note, they don't make any other 20.1 panels with a different model number that are TN that are 6-bit. I have given you all the models with the designations of M201EW02. None of which are a 6-bit panel. AUO has not even made a 6bit panel of the 20' variety in over two years.

AUO has been making TN 8-bit panels for awhile now, they even have some that are "out of production' or obsolete. Here are all the AUO 20.1 panels past and present.

http://www.flatpanel-online.com/Displaze_se/Filter/PanelFilter.php?page=1&srt=

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=&showobsolete=on

This backs up this sites current production of AUO panels.

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

I more than provided enough evidence to back up my claims. Your ignoring the facts when you have no facts to back up your own.

Find me a M201EW02 6-bit panel. Anywhere. Better yet, find me a 20.1 AUO panel in production that is 6-bit period.

Like I said before I even called AUO. They claimed that they did not "have a 2009 panel that used dithering'. This is their claim and I have no doubt judging on the info provided that they are wrong.

Add to the fact that the ifixit.com teardown had a production year of 2009 and "four back lights'. Same as the " M201EW02 VC' AUO panel.

What is more plausable?

The info I gave above? or



Are you saying that a special AUO panel number with the designation of M201EW02 is a 6-bit panel, even though none exist on AUO's website and or any website for that matter and that Apple would use a inferior panel and not the latest technology for their imacs when a better one is available from AUO. And that AUO would use a outdated technology that they did not use for several years just for Apple? Does that even make sense?

This debate is squashed. Nothing to even debate at this point. If you want a better panel take your chances and get a 2009 imac that has a AUO panel. Get over it bro, the LG panel is 6-bit the AUO is 8-bit. That is just the way it is. You have a 6-bit panel. It is still a good panel. Not as good as a 8-bit panel. No big deal.

[iamthedudeman]

Oh same as me. I guess it is normal. Seems like they turned up the fans on the new ones.

Does your optical drive make a sound every once in awhile like it is activating or "parking" itself?

I usually hear mine once or twice in 30 minutes. And that is with no disc in it. Wife noticed it too so it is not subtle. It last a second or two.

Oh and CR gave the 20" display an "excellent" rating.


Yes and yes. If I am not mistaken the 2009 models also have a improved optical drive. According to this they are twice as fast. This may be the culprit to the noise.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/imac-aluminum-faq/differences-between-imac-core-2-duo-aluminum-early-2008-penryn-early-2009-models.html

[rjp]

How are you coming to that conclusion? Is this even up for debate at this point? Really.

I provided more than enough facts.

Here are all the 2009 panels in production by AUO currently with the model designation M201EW02. As of note, they don't make any other 20.1 panels with a different model number that are TN that are 6-bit. I have given you all the models with the designations of M201EW02. None of which are a 6-bit panel. AUO has not even made a 6bit panel of the 20' variety in over two years.

AUO has been making TN 8-bit panels for awhile now, they even have some that are "out of production' or obsolete. Here are all the AUO 20.1 panels past and present.

http://www.flatpanel-online.com/Displaze_se/Filter/PanelFilter.php?page=1&srt=

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=&showobsolete=on

This backs up this sites current production of AUO panels.

http://lcdtech.no-ip.info/en/data/monitor.lcd.panels.htm?sz=&man=&pan=M201EW02+&typ=&res=&col=&gam=&br=&cr=&va=&rt=&int=&dim=&pwr=&blt=&wei=&coa=

I more than provided enough evidence to back up my claims. Your ignoring the facts when you have no facts to back up your own.

Find me a M201EW02 6-bit panel. Anywhere. Better yet, find me a 20.1 AUO panel in production that is 6-bit period.

Like I said before I even called AUO. They claimed that they did not "have a 2009 panel that used dithering'. This is their claim and I have no doubt judging on the info provided that they are wrong.

Add to the fact that the ifixit.com teardown had a production year of 2009 and "four back lights'. Same as the " M201EW02 VC' AUO panel.

What is more plausable?

The info I gave above? or



Are you saying that a special AUO panel number with the designation of M201EW02 is a 6-bit panel, even though none exist on AUO's website and or any website for that matter and that Apple would use a inferior panel and not the latest technology for their imacs when a better one is available from AUO. And that AUO would use a outdated technology that they did not use for several years just for Apple? Does that even make sense?

This debate is squashed. Nothing to even debate at this point. If you want a better panel take your chances and get a 2009 imac that has a AUO panel. Get over it bro, the LG panel is 6-bit the AUO is 8-bit. That is just the way it is. You have a 6-bit panel. It is still a good panel. Not as good as a 8-bit panel. No big deal.

You can not find your model number right?

You assume that because AUO only listed 8 bit versions in the series that begins with the same numbers as yours that your's must also be 8 bits.

Is this a reasonable assumption? Yes, I think so, and you may very well have an 8 bit panel as you said. But you don't know for sure. Speculation is not a bad thing. It's fun to try to guess at things like this, and you have done a good job digging for evidence, but in the end you should not call it fact until you have proof.

Like I said, pure speculation. There is no debate.

[JayLenochiniMac]

But you don't know for sure. Speculation is not a bad thing. It's fun to try to guess at things like this, and you have done a good job digging for evidence, but in the end you should not call it fact until you have proof.

Sounds like rjp is giving you (iamthedudeman) a taste of your own medicine, for in the beginning of this thread you refused to admit it's a TN panel without some kind of hard proof on paper despite my educated guess based on observations and known facts.

And rjp is acting like trip1ex in the beginning of the thread.

[trip1ex]

More ammo for iamthedudeman:

This year Consumer Reports rates the 20" display "Excellent."

The previous year it rated the 20" display "Very Good."

[trip1ex]

Yes and yes. If I am not mistaken the 2009 models also have a improved optical drive. According to this they are twice as fast. This may be the culprit to the noise.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/imac-aluminum-faq/differences-between-imac-core-2-duo-aluminum-early-2008-penryn-early-2009-models.html


I think I noticed this when I was ripping a DVD. It seemed to go faster. I was thinking it was just the faster cpu.

Too bad optical discs on their way out though.

I am thinking of doing away with DVDs. And converting everything to H.264 on my hard drive. Even ordered 2 1 TBs the other day. I'm going to put one in my imac and use the external for backup.

[JayLenochiniMac]

More ammo for iamthedudeman:

This year Consumer Reports rates the 20" display "Excellent."

The previous year it rated the 20" display "Very Good."

And this goes to show that relying blindly on CR's judgment and recommendations is not always smart, for CR could have happened to obtain the model with the "excellent" AUO panel and there will be 2009 20" customers who end up with the "very good" LG panel.

[trip1ex]

And this goes to show that relying blindly on CR's judgment and recommendations is not always smart, for CR could have happened to obtain the model with the "excellent" AUO panel and there will be 2009 20" customers who end up with the "very good" LG panel.

I think it shows the 20" screen is great.

[kvasir]

This thread is epic.

[rjp]

This thread is epic.

Just 5 more posts till 200!

The 20 is excellent! At least mine was. And I had the mere 6-bit version;-)

[Canadian Bacon]

I think it shows the 20" screen is great.

That's the point, isn't it?....which 20" panel is "great/excellent"? For the two panels in question, people on this forum have used adjectives ranging from 'good' to 'gorgeous'. For Average Joe Consumer, of course, one person's good might be another person's gorgeous. But, IMO CR's quality rating change seems to fit people's general descriptions of the LG/AUO panels, even if CR didn't state which panel their test iMac was equipped with.

[taxdad]

Also, you can find out what panel you have by opening terminal and pasting the following command:
ioreg -lw0 | grep IODisplayEDID | sed "/[^<]*</s///" | xxd -p -r | strings -6

My 24" is LM240WU2-SLB1 and manufacturer is 0610, but I've seen this same 0610 code used for AU Optronics, which leads me to think the manufacturer code is meaningless. The model number is what's important.

Just curious - how does one come up with that command string information? Are things like that on Apple support web site? It seems a little complex to have come up with on your own. What was the source? Thanks.

[JayLenochiniMac]

Just curious - how does one come up with that command string information? Are things like that on Apple support web site? It seems a little complex to have come up with on your own. What was the source? Thanks.

It's the standard UNIX language, familiar to anyone who knows the language. I'm not fluent in it but I got it from someone through googling.

[iamthedudeman]

Sounds like rjp is giving you (iamthedudeman) a taste of your own medicine, for in the beginning of this thread you refused to admit it's a TN panel without some kind of hard proof on paper despite my educated guess based on observations and known facts.

And rjp is acting like trip1ex in the beginning of the thread.

I never refused it being a TN panel, I said I didn't think it was actually did not care if it was, but if it was it was a good one. Look up my post.

We have the model of the panel. The model is a AUO M201EW02 there is no speculation there. The VF does not make it "not' a M201EW02 model panel. The "VF' may stand for something Apple specific, or simply refer to a supplier of a part, but all M201EW02 panels are all 8bit. That is a fact, regardless of what designation it has after the model number. The "VF' as opposed to V8 or VC or V0 does not change the fact that the panel is of the M201EW02 model family.

The is no M201EW02 6-bit panels. They don't exist. AUO has not made a 6-bit panel at 20 inches in over two years. They have obsolete 8bit panels.


RJP is confusing the fact that the "VF' makes it a different panel, which is simply not the case. We don't know how different the VF is opposed to the VC lr V8 or V0 but we do know that they are all M201EW02 AUO panels. And there for 8-bit. Regardless.

As the saying goes "show me the money'. Show me one M201EW02 AUO panel that is 6-bit. Than you might be onto something.

[iamthedudeman]

This thread is epic.

You got that right bro, and thats 201 folks. :cool:

[taxdad]

Also, you can find out what panel you have by opening terminal and pasting the following command:
ioreg -lw0 | grep IODisplayEDID | sed "/[^<]*</s///" | xxd -p -r | strings -6

My 24" is LM240WU2-SLB1 and manufacturer is 0610, but I've seen this same 0610 code used for AU Optronics, which leads me to think the manufacturer code is meaningless. The model number is what's important.

I did this and I have the supposedly better M201EW02 VF panel. I'm wondering if the 20 inch 2009 panel "lottery" (where there are 2 panels and one is "better" than the other) has something to do with where and when one buys their iMac (for example, maybe the big box resellers have the inferior panel). Just a theory. Has that theory already been refuted? I've read all 200 posts and can't put together the answer. I bought mine at an Apple store in April 2009.

[kurosov]

I did this and I have the supposedly better M201EW02 VF panel. I'm wondering if the 20 inch 2009 panel "lottery" (where there are 2 panels and one is "better" than the other) has something to do with where and when one buys their iMac (for example, maybe the big box resellers have the inferior panel). Just a theory. Has that theory already been refuted? I've read all 200 posts and can't put together the answer. I bought mine at an Apple store in April 2009.

I have the standard panel and i got it from the official apple store, liverpool one, UK.

[JayLenochiniMac]

I'm wondering if the 20 inch 2009 panel "lottery" (where there are 2 panels and one is "better" than the other) has something to do with where and when one buys their iMac (for example, maybe the big box resellers have the inferior panel). Just a theory. Has that theory already been refuted?

It's really no different from hard drive lottery, in which Apple uses more than one vendor for a particular component. Someone could luck out and get the faster or more reliable HD, just as someone anywhere could get the good bet in a panel lottery.

Canadian Bacon, for example, got the AUO panel in his first (defective) iMac, but his replacement came with the LG panel, which was unacceptable to him so he returned it.

[Canadian Bacon]

I'm wondering if the 20 inch 2009 panel "lottery" (where there are 2 panels and one is "better" than the other) has something to do with where and when one buys their iMac (for example, maybe the big box resellers have the inferior panel). Just a theory. Has that theory already been refuted?

My local reseller put a 20"er on display in the last two weeks - it has an LG panel (I checked yesterday.) I was kind of hoping the lottery might be over. Guess not. Sigh.

[taxdad]

My local reseller put a 20"er on display in the last two weeks - it has an LG panel (I checked yesterday.) I was kind of hoping the lottery might be over. Guess not. Sigh.

You could always just spring for the 24 just to be done with it. A better display. More memory. Everyone says you get used to the 24 after a short time. Just a thought.

[kvasir]

I can attest to this. The 24" seems huge at first, but I think it's a perfect fit. I have multiple windows open and I don't feel the least bit crowded. I was teetering, but the 24" was a winner in the end.

[Canadian Bacon]

You could always just spring for the 24 just to be done with it. A better display. More memory. Everyone says you get used to the 24 after a short time. Just a thought.

Yup...that would probably put an end to my misery. I freely admit to being stubborn about wanting the 20" over the 24". But as other people have posted in another thread, I prefer the physical size (height) and thinness of the 20", the more user-friendly minimal brightness etc. But, the clincher is my desk, which is in my small living room of my small apartment. The 20" was perfect as I have low IKEA bookshelves behind my desk. Heightwise the 24" would just drown my particular room setup. Otherwise, the 24" base config would be a logical no-brainer. At the store the other day I looked at the 20" LG iMac panel, then looked left at the 24" panel, and essentially thought exactly what you're saying. I'm just being a knob. :o

[jtgotsjets]

^dude, how small is your apartment that four inches is all of a sudden drowning you?

[Canadian Bacon]

^dude, how small is your apartment that four inches is all of a sudden drowning you?

LOL - I guess I opened myself up for that one. We live in Europe - our apartment is small by any sort of N. American standards, and space is really tight. But, basically my wife and I didn't want a computer on our living room desk that's bigger than our 20" TV. It would just look huge. We've always been laptop people, but I've been drooling over a smallish iMac for ages. Many people wouldn't worry about it. We do - it's just us.

[CrankinJland]

our apartment is small by any sort of N. American standards, and space is really tight. But, basically my wife and I didn't want a computer on our living room desk that's bigger than our 20" TV. It would just look huge. Many people wouldn't worry about it. We do - it's just us.

I live in a Japanese apartment and feel exactly the way you do.
The 20" is perfect for us.

[iamthedudeman]

Yup...that would probably put an end to my misery. I freely admit to being stubborn about wanting the 20" over the 24". But as other people have posted in another thread, I prefer the physical size (height) and thinness of the 20", the more user-friendly minimal brightness etc. But, the clincher is my desk, which is in my small living room of my small apartment. The 20" was perfect as I have low IKEA bookshelves behind my desk. Heightwise the 24" would just drown my particular room setup. Otherwise, the 24" base config would be a logical no-brainer. At the store the other day I looked at the 20" LG iMac panel, then looked left at the 24" panel, and essentially thought exactly what you're saying. I'm just being a knob. :o


If I had to do it all over again, I would also go with the 24". Problem is I have plenty of room. It's the height of the imac that is the problem. The 20' because of my desk is about three to four inches above my head. Even with my chair at full height.

I have a old desk, a expensive one at that that is wood with a "shelf' made for regular monitors. Not one with the height of the imac. The imac was made to sit on a desk without a "shelf'.

So the 24 would be six inches or more above my head. No can do. Next time in a few years, I will get a new desk, chair and imac and be done with it.

[iamthedudeman]

Yup...that would probably put an end to my misery. I freely admit to being stubborn about wanting the 20" over the 24". But as other people have posted in another thread, I prefer the physical size (height) and thinness of the 20", the more user-friendly minimal brightness etc. But, the clincher is my desk, which is in my small living room of my small apartment. The 20" was perfect as I have low IKEA bookshelves behind my desk. Heightwise the 24" would just drown my particular room setup. Otherwise, the 24" base config would be a logical no-brainer. At the store the other day I looked at the 20" LG iMac panel, then looked left at the 24" panel, and essentially thought exactly what you're saying. I'm just being a knob. :o


If I had to do it all over again, I would also go with the 24". Problem is I have plenty of room. It's the height of the imac that is the problem. The 20' because of my desk is about three to four inches above my head. Even with my chair at full height.

I have a old desk, a expensive one at that that is wood with a "shelf' made for regular monitors. Not one with the height of the imac. The imac was made to sit on a desk without a "shelf'. The 20 looks huge because you have to look up at it. The 24' would be just too much. The keyboard sits way low due to the chair sitting up so high, making for a non comfortable environment.

So the 24 would be six inches or more above my head. No can do. Next time in a few years, I will get a new desk, chair and imac and be done with it.

[trip1ex]

I Like the 20".

I like that the brightness goes much lower than the 24". The 24" brightness control ranges from extremely bright to insanely bright. That brightness was too much.

The 20" screen is easier to take in too. Everything is front and center. You don't need to turn your head.

The 20" also weighs less. I do move my iMac every so often to the kitchen table.

The 20" uses less energy.

The 9400M gpu performs better at the lower resolution of the 20".

And the 20" has a greater pixel density.


I might be the only one that switched from a 24" back to a 20". :D

[Canadian Bacon]

If I had to do it all over again, I would also go with the 24". Problem is I have plenty of room. It's the height of the imac that is the problem. The 20' because of my desk is about three to four inches above my head. Even with my chair at full height.

I have a old desk, a expensive one at that that is wood with a "shelf' made for regular monitors. Not one with the height of the imac. The imac was made to sit on a desk without a "shelf'. The 20 looks huge because you have to look up at it. The 24' would be just too much. The keyboard sits way low due to the chair sitting up so high, making for a non comfortable environment.

So the 24 would be six inches or more above my head. No can do. Next time in a few years, I will get a new desk, chair and imac and be done with it.

That's how I feel too. The LED Cinema Display has almost the identical overall height of the 20" iMac, which I feel is ideal. If I had €2000 burning a hole in my pocket, I'd just buy a Macbook with the LED display, enjoy the best of both worlds (and not worry about value for money compared with a 24" iMac.) That would have the additional benefit of the better brightness settings of the LED Display over the 24" iMac, too. If the 24" iMac were lower though, I'd probably buy that instead to save money.

[Canadian Bacon]

I Like the 20".

I like that the brightness goes much lower than the 24". The 24" brightness control ranges from extremely bright to insanely bright. That brightness was too much.

The 20" screen is easier to take in too. Everything is front and center. You don't need to turn your head.

The 20" also weighs less. I do move my iMac every so often to the kitchen table.

The 20" uses less energy.

The 9400M gpu performs better at the lower resolution of the 20".

And the 20" has a greater pixel density.


I might be the only one that switched from a 24" back to a 20". :D

I think I read that someone was giving you flak for that in another thread, but to me your reasoning seems right on the money. And re: power consumption, the 20" uses 56% of the power that the 24" consumes (46W vs. 82W) due to the brightness settings (posted earlier in this thread). That alone is a big deal for people like me living in places like €urope where energy costs a fortune.

[Canadian Bacon]

I live in a Japanese apartment and feel exactly the way you do.
The 20" is perfect for us.

Cool! When I posted that I was thinking of a friend of mine who spent 6 years in Japan in a tiny apartment with her kids.

[iamthedudeman]

I Like the 20".

I like that the brightness goes much lower than the 24". The 24" brightness control ranges from extremely bright to insanely bright. That brightness was too much.

The 20" screen is easier to take in too. Everything is front and center. You don't need to turn your head.

The 20" also weighs less. I do move my iMac every so often to the kitchen table.

The 20" uses less energy.

The 9400M gpu performs better at the lower resolution of the 20".

And the 20" has a greater pixel density.


I might be the only one that switched from a 24" back to a 20". :D

I agree totally as I use a 24' for work every day. But that being said I don't like the fact you have to play the panel lottery.

By the way, my model number is MB4I7LL/A. What is your model number. Maybe there is a correlation between panels and model numbers?

[trip1ex]

I agree totally as I use a 24' for work every day. But that being said I don't like the fact you have to play the panel lottery.

By the way, my model number is MB4I7LL/A. What is your model number. Maybe there is a correlation between panels and model numbers?

Same model # here. MB417LL/A.

I put a 1TB drive in my iMac a few days ago. :D Love the extra space. I'm digitizing quite a few movies now.

[485250]

The 9400M gpu performs better at the lower resolution of the 20".

And the 20" has a greater pixel density.




Hey Trip1ex, Could you please clarify on those two aspects?

[AlexisV]

Any GPU will give you a higher frame rate when it has less pixels to display.

[rjp]

Hey Trip1ex, Could you please clarify on those two aspects?

The 20" has fewer pixels overall, but more pixels per square inch (denser/ closer together)