Wedding photography - absolute noob needs advice

[Marlat]

Hi everyone!

I got a big problem at hand. In two months a good buddy of mine is going to get married and asked me if I could shoot some nice pics for him. He knows that I have a nice camera and do relativitly (sp?) good pictures.

But a wedding is a whole different thing for me. Most of the time I shoot party pictures or still life in fairly decent light.

And now you guys & gals come into play.

I currently have a Pentax K10D, the 18-55mm kit lens, a 50mm F1.4 lens, some memorycards, two batteries. I'm going to buy a tele lens and a flash - which one I don't know exactly.
The lens I was looking at was the Sigma 70-200 EX HSM one, because of the silent focusing. An alternative would be the Pentax DA* 50-135, but I have the feeling I might be lacking some outreach. Has anybody a hint for me?
As for the flash, I'm totally dumb. Normally I would crank the ISO setting up to 640 and use my 50mm lens - so any help there would be neat too. Possible choices are the Pentax 540, Sigma 530 Super oder the Metz 58 AF.

Budgetwise I'm pending around 1k euro for both items and other stuff like baggage.

I feel quite honored that he wants me to accompany the paid shooter, but I'm also afraid I might not be up to the task.

Any proficient wedding photogs here who are willing to help me?
I'm really looking forward for any insight or tips.

[ftaok]

I'm not sure what the customs are in Europe, but in the US, I would follow some common sense.

1. Make sure the pro-photographer is OK with this set-up. Have your buddy talk it over with the pro.

2. Don't get in the way of the pro. There are going to be shots that the pro is required to take. Don't get in the way and don't screw up the pro's lighting.

3. Check with your buddy to see what he expects from you. I'm sure you want to do the best you can, but get a sense of what he expects from you. After you know what he wants, you can get the lenses you want (or don't buy anything at all). Personally, I wouldn't buy a lens specifically for this wedding if I didn't already want that lens in the first place. In other words, don't buy any lens/flash/etc just for the wedding.

Good luck!

BTW - I'm not a pro or anything, but I've been to many weddings (including my own). I once got "yelled" at by the pro because I left the AF-assist lamp on and was screwing up her shots.

[Marlat]

I'm not sure what the customs are in Europe, but in the US, I would follow some common sense.

1. Make sure the pro-photographer is OK with this set-up. Have your buddy talk it over with the pro.

2. Don't get in the way of the pro. There are going to be shots that the pro is required to take. Don't get in the way and don't screw up the pro's lighting.

3. Check with your buddy to see what he expects from you. I'm sure you want to do the best you can, but get a sense of what he expects from you. After you know what he wants, you can get the lenses you want (or don't buy anything at all). Personally, I wouldn't buy a lens specifically for this wedding if I didn't already want that lens in the first place. In other words, don't buy any lens/flash/etc just for the wedding.

Good luck!

Thank you. Point 1 and 2 were something I thought of myself already. If I screw his pictures up, I'll hear from the couple for the rest of my lifetime that I ruined there wedding - and well, I'm not that of a masochist ;)

You are also absolutely right about point 3. But I want a tele lens anyway, so I will buy it nonetheless. But for the flash gun, I don't know. Ah well, I guess I have to throw a coin on this one.

[Doylem]

Maybe let the pro do all the 'bread & butter' shots... while you get the pix he won't take: the funny, off-beat, informal moments during the day. Less pressure on you, too...

[ChrisA]

I feel quite honored that he wants me to accompany the paid shooter, but I'm also afraid I might not be up to the task.

Any proficient wedding photogs here who are willing to help me?
I'm really looking forward for any insight or tips.

I'm almost certain the professional photographer will simply ask you to leave. Or at least to leave the area where he is working.

Most of them are happy if you do your shots AFTER he is done but will not be happy at all if you follow him around and he will be very upset if you try and re-shoot his set-ups.

What you CAN do is shoot the shoots the pro would not shoot. Use yor 50mm or even a wider lens and capture things that you normally would do. Like those party shots and still life of details in the church. But don't try and do the pro'd job. The couple will by very busy and not have time to multiple setups of the same shots.

Above all do NOT ask any of your subjects to do anything or pose or take even a minute of their time. Shoot as iif you are a photo journalist covering the event. Photographers tend to use a lot of the wedding couple's time. Do't add to that. Stand in the background and and keep out of the way. Shoot candid pictures of other guests. in 20 years those photos will be the best ones.

[Marlat]

Maybe let the pro do all the 'bread & butter' shots... while you get the pix he won't take: the funny, off-beat, informal moments during the day. Less pressure on you, too...

Good idea. Hmm, maybe this won't be as hard as I thought.
Of course they will still hope to get some decent ones from me. :) But leaving the pro do his work might be what I was looking for.

I had the impression from my buddy, that he wants me to cover the whole wedding. Guess I have to speak a little bit with him - when he's not too busy getting the catholic church to do his wedding :D

[GuyNextDoor]

I shot photos for my sisters wedding, years ago (35mm) and I agree with ftaok's points.

I'd especially avoid being around the pro, snapping the same shots he is - he'll get annoyed and nothing you do will likely match his. He's trying to make a living here and doesn't need you underfoot.

I'd suggest concentrating on getting candids of the guests, especially shots that the pro is too busy to consider. He's there to be the official record of the event; be the subtext, the informal observer. As an example, while he's snapping the 400th shot of the bride and groom posed at the altar, you get that adorable shot of the flower-girl nodding off in the pew. He's shooting the bride and groom getting into their limo to head for the airport, you're snapping the teary-eyed mother seeing off her baby. That sort of thing.

[Marlat]

I'd suggest concentrating on getting candids of the guests, especially shots that the pro is too busy to consider. He's there to be the official record of the event; be the subtext, the informal observer. As an example, while he's snapping the 400th shot of the bride and groom posed at the altar, you get that adorable shot of the flower-girl nodding off in the pew. He's shooting the bride and groom getting into their limo to head for the airport, you're snapping the teary-eyed mother seeing off her baby. That sort of thing.

Ok. Man, you have some awesome ideas :) I guess it was the right thing to ask this here ;)

[ftaok]

Like those party shots and still life of details in the church.

As an example, while he's snapping the 400th shot of the bride and groom posed at the altar, you get that adorable shot of the flower-girl nodding off in the pew.

He's shooting the bride and groom getting into their limo to head for the airport, you're snapping the teary-eyed mother seeing off her baby. That sort of thing.
All of these are great ideas for shots, provided that they occur. The next wedding that I get invited to, these are the shots that I'm going to look for.

ft

[Consultant]

I shot photos for my sisters wedding, years ago (35mm) and I agree with ftaok's points.

I'd especially avoid being around the pro, snapping the same shots he is - he'll get annoyed and nothing you do will likely match his. He's trying to make a living here and doesn't need you underfoot.

I'd suggest concentrating on getting candids of the guests, especially shots that the pro is too busy to consider. He's there to be the official record of the event; be the subtext, the informal observer. As an example, while he's snapping the 400th shot of the bride and groom posed at the altar, you get that adorable shot of the flower-girl nodding off in the pew. He's shooting the bride and groom getting into their limo to head for the airport, you're snapping the teary-eyed mother seeing off her baby. That sort of thing.

Depends on photographer. Some are posed portrait style photographer, others document the event.

Those are the type of photos I shoot when I am covering a wedding. =)

I don't really have time for guest candids though. Hint.

[Marlat]

Depends on photographer. Some are posed portrait style photographer, others document the event.

Those are the type of photos I shoot when I am covering a wedding. =)

I don't really have time for guest candids though. Hint.

I guess the groom doesn't even know what kind of pro photog he wants (or will be hiring). It's a bit of a mess at the moment - the only thing that's definite is the date of the wedding.

[ftaok]

Depends on photographer. Some are posed portrait style photographer, others document the event.

Those are the type of photos I shoot when I am covering a wedding. =)

I don't really have time for guest candids though. Hint.Back during my wedding, my pro used his Hasselblad for the standard posed wedding shots and such and a 35mm SLR with B/W film for the "photo-journalist" shots.

It worked out very well ... although now I have 800+ negatives and no time to scan them all.

ft

[James L]

I guess the groom doesn't even know what kind of pro photog he wants (or will be hiring). It's a bit of a mess at the moment - the only thing that's definite is the date of the wedding.

My only comment is make sure there IS a pro. Do NOT become the only photographer there. Weddings are one of the toughest gigs to shoot properly, there are no retakes for those special moments, and if something goes wrong it can put a huge strain on your friendship.

Be the "other" shooter, don't worry about having a list of things to get, and just have fun!

[Marlat]

My only comment is make sure there IS a pro. Do NOT become the only photographer there. Weddings are one of the toughest gigs to shoot properly, there are no retakes for those special moments, and if something goes wrong it can put a huge strain on your friendship.

Be the "other" shooter, don't worry about having a list of things to get, and just have fun!

Oh, you can bet, I won't be showing up if there is no real pro. I might be good, but I'm not mad enough to risk my friendship.

[miloblithe]

If possible, talk to the pro before the wedding, even if it's early the day of the wedding to clarify each other's expectations. When I did this, the pro turned out to be incredibly nice and was even giving me hints and tips throughout the day. He understood I respected him as the pro and there were no issues through the day.

While I totally agree that you can concentrate on the gravy shots that the pro doesn't have time to consider, don't totally divorce yourself from the main scene either. Don't stand over the pro's shoulder and take the same shots by any means, but a different angle or approach may turn out to be something the bride and groom love. The B&G at one wedding I took pictures at definitely liked some of my pics more than the pro's.

[fridgeymonster3]

Oh, you can bet, I won't be showing up if there is no real pro. I might be good, but I'm not mad enough to risk my friendship.

I agree, definitely don't do that! I got wrangled into shooting a small ceremony a few years ago as a favor to my wife basically with last minute's notice because the pro cancelled on the couple. I was visiting, had none of my equiptment, and got stuck borrowing stuff. And I'm not a pro!! Don't do it, not for the sake of the group, but for that fact you may wish you could have done better. I know I could have!

[Consultant]

Back during my wedding, my pro used his Hasselblad for the standard posed wedding shots and such and a 35mm SLR with B/W film for the "photo-journalist" shots.

It worked out very well ... although now I have 800+ negatives and no time to scan them all.

ft

Yeah that's why I stopped doing film.
Have not shoot with the Hasselblad in years.

[theblueone]

If I were in your position, maybe I'd try to lower the B&G's expectations a little beforehand. Maybe even re-label yourself as "guest who's bringing his camera" instead of second photographer. I say this because I've had similar arrangments go pretty badly before. The worst was when one of the more-than -a-little-inebriated cousins/bridesmades insisted that the paid photographer stop between each of his poses so that I, "the other photographer" could take the same shot. Of course, this didn't happen, and you could see it in the pro's pictures on the face of the pissed-off cousin.

The best, by far, was when I told my friends, "sorry, I won't act in any way close to an official capacity, but I'll certainly bring my camera and get as many great shots as I come across.". I just flew under the radar and I didn't even take my camera out of the bag for the ceremony. I did get a ton of memorable shots of the nervous groom beforehand, and a bunch of the celebration at the reception.

With this kind of arrangement, my friends got more bang for their buck from their paid photographer since she could more comfortably pose and compose her shots, I got to relax and enjoy the wedding more, and the B&G got two entirely different sets of great photos.

[toxic]

where's the wedding going to be? lighting conditions? you may need to buy/rent a faster standard zoom, or even another prime or two. i'm not a wedding photographer, but i'm not so sure of the usefulness of a flash that isn't off-camera.

[TheReef]

Definitely get a recent Pentax Flash. (AF-360FGZ or AF-540FGZ only)

Your K10D supports wireless external flash mode (you'll need to download K10D firmware 1.3).

Hold the flash off to different angles you get really good results.
Much better results than if you mount the flash on the hot shoe, your photos will be in a whole different league.


This can be done comfortably holding the flash in one hand, stretched out the side and the camera in the other.


You can get cords for other flashes, but the convenience of a wireless flash means you can push the limits further, eg laying the flash on a table with a group sitting around it, and you shooting from a distance…

[rouxeny]

I think people have posted some very good points here. I was the "friend with a camera" at a recent wedding and I wasn't as crass as to follow the pro shooter around, but I think I may have been more intrusive than I should have been. Looking at my shots, there are definitely a few where their flash is visible in my shot, so presumably he must have had a few where mine ruined his shot. Were I to do it again now, I would be a bit more discrete and really let him try to do his job.

There are a lot of other opportunities to take fun wedding shots. I used a fisheye and had a few keepers and I thought that my interactions with the guests were a bit more natural than the pro's.

Good luck, try not to stress too much!

[termina3]

I would suggest against the flashgun. They're intrusive pretty much no matter what, especially with a pro wandering around. (That's my style though. I own one, but don't like using it because it seems to promote stiffness in images.)

But if you go for it, I suggest a good, sturdy, and comfortable bracket. You'll quickly tire of holding the flash up at odd angles, but previous posters have been totally correct in saying that leaving it on the hotshoe is a bad, bad idea. Don't forget the ttl cord.

[oblomow]

I think it depends on what the couple expects, formal photo's or just a registration of the event. I was asked last year by friends to shoot their wedding. They knew what to expect of my wedding photography quality..... (it was my first). The wedding itself was a small ceremony with a party afterwards. There was no professional photographer.
My advice is: if you do it, make sure you 3 all know what the expected result will be. And during the ceremony, be up there with the couple. You have been asked to shoot, so better (without being too intrusive) make sure you can make closeups of the rings beings handed over, the signing of the registration ( couple, witnesses). Oh, and get photo's of all the people in the audience. It would be a shame to have missed beloved aunt this or old friend so that travelled the world to attend the wedding. (if you don't recognize them, since you're a friend, it doesn't mean their presence is not important for the couple.)
Oh and if it's an indoor event, I would prefer to shoot high ISO instead of using a flash all the time. So if possible check out the locations before the event.

[SayCheese]

At my sisters wedding back in January this year I took my camera along, I didn't get it out during the ceremony but I did take loads of shots afterwards. The Pro was useless, the shots she presented a couple of weeks later are not particuarly great. At one point during the shooting she even turned to me and said "I ought to follow you, you've got some great ideas".

I have also been an official photographer at a wedding and trust me it's a nerve wracking experience. It is not something that I would want to do again in a hurry but I am this September.

The best advice I can give is take loads of memory cards. Work out how many you will need and then double it. You cannot take too many pictures. Also take spare batteries. If you can find somewhere at the reception venue to plug in your charger and keep a spare on charge then great. Do not ever delete a photo until you have backed them up on the computer at home. It is too easy on most cameras to accidently hit the delete all instead of delete this one button. If you don't already, learn your camera, learn everything you can about it, where every button is and what it does. Idea being that you can then adjust things like aperture and shutter speed whilst still looking through the viewfinder and you can do it quickly. That way you are less likely to miss the decisive moment.

Most of all though, enjoy it and have fun. It WILL make you a better photographer.

[wheelhot]

Awesome advices here! It seems MR has a great photog community. Bookmarked post!

[Marlat]

Man! You guys definitly rock! So much awesomeness here!
Sorry for my late answer, had some sleep to catch up ;)

But thanks everyone! Some great ideas and many new things for me to think over.

I guess first thing next week will be a visit to the bride and groom. This will clear things up for me.

[SecondDealer]

The only good picture I've ever taken at a wedding is the one below.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/918/p7261869.th.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p7261869.jpg)

[gerlan]

Hi Marlat- Things already seem to be getting out of hand- I'm sure your friends only expect some extra photos- you can relax as any pressure is on the Pro. Previous advice is all good, however at the risk of upsetting any enthusiasts i would recommend...
1) set camera to auto (yes auto!)...
2) concentrate on composition (and not missing the 'candids')..most of your photos can be improved on your computer to a very satisfactory standard as you're not expecting to produce poster size prints to Pro quality (trust your camera). The Freeware such as Picassa will produce acceptable results 90% of the time. If you remain calm and relaxed your photos will be better for it!
3)Yes, introduce yourself to the Pro- He/She won't mind when you make it clear that their work is paramount. Do allow the Pro to take some 'unique' shots ie They will probably shepherd the couple away to a quiet spot, so give them space while you then look for relaxed candids.
4) Weddings are fantastic opportunities for recording family reunions- it's amazing how many families don't have 'recent' photos- Groom/Parents, Uncle/Aunt with their children, Grandparents/Grandchildren, 3 generations, Bridesmaids etc You will be surprised at how grateful people will be!
5) keep thinking backdrop/framing/compostion ie how can i make photo more interesting- just moving someone 10 feet can make all the difference.
6) Any flash will be better than onboard flash but I suspect you will use flash a lot (social gatherings?) so invest!
7) If you like photographing people- 85mm prime lens excellent choice, faster the better?
8) It's all become too serious, relax, you're probably the only person making an issue of it?

[Marlat]

Hi Marlat- Things already seem to be getting out of hand- I'm sure your friends only expect some extra photos- you can relax as any pressure is on the Pro. Previous advice is all good, however at the risk of upsetting any enthusiasts i would recommend...
1) set camera to auto (yes auto!)...
2) concentrate on composition (and not missing the 'candids')..most of your photos can be improved on your computer to a very satisfactory standard as you're not expecting to produce poster size prints to Pro quality (trust your camera). The Freeware such as Picassa will produce acceptable results 90% of the time. If you remain calm and relaxed your photos will be better for it!
3)Yes, introduce yourself to the Pro- He/She won't mind when you make it clear that their work is paramount. Do allow the Pro to take some 'unique' shots ie They will probably shepherd the couple away to a quiet spot, so give them space while you then look for relaxed candids.
4) Weddings are fantastic opportunities for recording family reunions- it's amazing how many families don't have 'recent' photos- Groom/Parents, Uncle/Aunt with their children, Grandparents/Grandchildren, 3 generations, Bridesmaids etc You will be surprised at how grateful people will be!
5) keep thinking backdrop/framing/compostion ie how can i make photo more interesting- just moving someone 10 feet can make all the difference.
6) Any flash will be better than onboard flash but I suspect you will use flash a lot (social gatherings?) so invest!
7) If you like photographing people- 85mm prime lens excellent choice, faster the better?
8) It's all become too serious, relax, you're probably the only person making an issue of it?

Could you elaborate why I should set the camera to auto?

As for number 2, I got Adobe Photoshop CS4 and am quite good at retouching my pictures.

Regarding number 3: the pro photog will shoot the bride and groom alone. As I understood the groom it will be something like this: after the ceremony in the church the families and friends will walk over to the party place (guess one could call it so) while the pro shooter takes some staged photos of the bride and groom.

Number 7 is almost impossible. The Pentax 85mm F1.4 lens costs round 1400 dollar, if there is one on ebay. And thats almost never. So I have to rely on my 50mm F1.4 and the soon arriving 70-200m F2.8. Thats the fastest I can and will afford.

And finally: I'm making an issue out of it, because the bride and groom asked me personally that I take nice pictures for them. That puts alot of pressure on me - you are right, there will be many more who'll take pictures. But none of them were asked directly to deliver some high quality pics. And I'm qouting the groom here.

But oh well, maybe I should relax a bit :)

[anubis]

Hmm... a bit of a bizarre request from the B&G if you ask me... one of two things is going on here.. either there's a miscommunication and they don't actually want you to be the "second shooter" and just want to make sure they have people other than the pro taking pictures from a guest's point of view, OR they don't have any confidence that the pro will be able to capture the pictures they want.

The first scenario makes more sense, and may have used the term "second shooter" in a less literal sense, whereas you're interpreting their request very literally as "be the second pro photographer".

I guess the second scenario could happen, in which case we're left wondering why exactly they're paying a pro photographer to take pictures they think they won't even like.

Either way, as many others have already expressed, the pro photographer will not allow you to take pictures of scenes that he or she has arranged, and will be very annoyed if you try to shadow him or her all day and will probably ask you to leave.

Many, if not most, professional photographers require B&Gs to sign a contract that explicitly prohibits having a "second shooter". Additionally, contracts often contain clauses that prohibit allowing guests to use their cameras during the formal shots, etc. I certainly require my clients to sign such a contract. Of course, on the other hand, guests are certainly expected to take pictures of the ceremony while they are seated, and of the reception while they are mingling with the other guests. That's what I suggest you do. You will be able to take lots of great pictures in this capacity. But taking time with the B&G to do your own portraits with them will be seen by the pro as "stealing" his or her time with them. It would also be very bad for you to be walking around during the ceremony. The pro should be the only one out of their seat.

Hope this helps! You should talk with the B&G to very clearly articulate your expectations and let them know that while you will do your best to take photos, you won't have the same level of access as the pro and therefore they should not expect professional-level pictures.

[MacNoobie]

After shooting weddings assisting a pro in the business the B&G are getting into a remarkable grey area. The pro's I've worked with all want the guests to ******* off literally during formals. I've seen friends and families countless times whip out their P&S before and after a pro's setup a line up of people for formals and its pissed a pro off since he's getting his shots and being distracted by the brides sisters friend yelling at her for a shot for her camera now. Being a second shooter or trying to shadow the pro's shots is almost always going to piss the pro off even if they say otherwise because people have a problem with ok I see two people with fancy cameras so who do I look at.

My advice is to observe, just simply observe and have your camera at all times around your neck because you might get a shot that the pro wouldn't otherwise get. I also wouldn't stand behind the pro with your camera during formals lets say waiting till he's shot to get yours in because this will undoubtedly piss the pro off.

Lens wise a good wide angle is always good a moderate normal lens ~24-70+ range and a good telephoto like a 70-200ish would also help.

[Marlat]

Hmm... a bit of a bizarre request from the B&G if you ask me... one of two things is going on here.. either there's a miscommunication and they don't actually want you to be the "second shooter" and just want to make sure they have people other than the pro taking pictures from a guest's point of view, OR they don't have any confidence that the pro will be able to capture the pictures they want.

The first scenario makes more sense, and may have used the term "second shooter" in a less literal sense, whereas you're interpreting their request very literally as "be the second pro photographer".

I guess the second scenario could happen, in which case we're left wondering why exactly they're paying a pro photographer to take pictures they think they won't even like.

Either way, as many others have already expressed, the pro photographer will not allow you to take pictures of scenes that he or she has arranged, and will be very annoyed if you try to shadow him or her all day and will probably ask you to leave.

Many, if not most, professional photographers require B&Gs to sign a contract that explicitly prohibits having a "second shooter". Additionally, contracts often contain clauses that prohibit allowing guests to use their cameras during the formal shots, etc. I certainly require my clients to sign such a contract. Of course, on the other hand, guests are certainly expected to take pictures of the ceremony while they are seated, and of the reception while they are mingling with the other guests. That's what I suggest you do. You will be able to take lots of great pictures in this capacity. But taking time with the B&G to do your own portraits with them will be seen by the pro as "stealing" his or her time with them. It would also be very bad for you to be walking around during the ceremony. The pro should be the only one out of their seat.

Hope this helps! You should talk with the B&G to very clearly articulate your expectations and let them know that while you will do your best to take photos, you won't have the same level of access as the pro and therefore they should not expect professional-level pictures.

I guess it would help, if I told you that they are a bit cheap. They do not have a big budget - and I guess they will try to save as much money on the pro shooter. :) Sorry, that I missed that crucial information :)

[wheelhot]

Kay...time to bring down the intensity level a lil bit :D
Here is an idea, you walk directly opposite from the pro shooter and in fact dont even point your camera at the direction he/she pointing at if you are using flash.

But yea, do confirm with the B&G if they are treating you as a second official pro photographer or just asking you to take photos just cause your own a dSLR :(

The reason why I ask you to so that if the main photographer like ask you, "what are you doing?" and such, at least you can say that "Oh, the B&G asked me to become their 2nd main photographer" or something, better then "erm, the B&G asked me to take some photos for them".

[Marlat]

Kay...time to bring down the intensity level a lil bit :D
Here is an idea, you walk directly opposite from the pro shooter and in fact dont even point your camera at the direction he/she pointing at if you are using flash.

But yea, do confirm with the B&G if they are treating you as a second official pro photographer or just asking you to take photos just cause your own a dSLR :(

The reason why I ask you to so that if the main photographer like ask you, "what are you doing?" and such, at least you can say that "Oh, the B&G asked me to become their 2nd main photographer" or something, better then "erm, the B&G asked me to take some photos for them".

Just to clear things up a bit, I talked to the groom on the phone today, and he said, that I shouldn't care for the pro shooter (or as he told me: "******* him") - well that's the spirit a pro wants to work under.

I'm currently in the position to be the guy with a good camera that takes some candids. Not more, not less. :) I'm cool and relaxed now.

[sejanus]

Just to clear things up a bit, I talked to the groom on the phone today, and he said, that I shouldn't care for the pro shooter (or as he told me: "******* him") - well that's the spirit a pro wants to work under.

holy hell! I'm a full time wedding photog and if I heard any of my clients say that I'd give them a refund of their deposit and tell them good luck with their day.

I'm guessing the pro they have is a fairly cheap one - the more you charge people the more they seem to appreciate the effort needed in photography - I'm guessing your friend is at the opposite end to that :eek: :)

[Marlat]

holy hell! I'm a full time wedding photog and if I heard any of my clients say that I'd give them a refund of their deposit and tell them good luck with their day.

I'm guessing the pro they have is a fairly cheap one - the more you charge people the more they seem to appreciate the effort needed in photography - I'm guessing your friend is at the opposite end to that :eek: :)

Yea, I wouldn't want to hear something like that as that from a paying customer as well. I hope it's the stress, that brought him to so drastic words.

I wouldn't be surprised if he cancels the pro shooter and just has his friends (like me) do the photos.

[wheelhot]

Hmm, okay not to make anyone angry or something, but seriously, how do you classify "pro" I seriously think that word got no meaning right now cause I've seen many people work and they by no means consider themselves pro but the standard they give you, just make you say out loud "pro" whereas there is another crowd where they are labelled as "pro" while in truth their work is just okay and not THAT special, I guess they are just called "pro" cause of the fancy equipments they have :rolleyes:.

So seriously, how do you classify pro? Some people in this post mentioned that a "pro" photographer says that he/she should have followed the advice of another people, so would that still means he/she a pro? or he/she is called a pro only cause he/she got lucky and end up getting paid for his/her interest and owning fancy equipment?

I am saying this cause I get a bit shocked when I hear photographers acting angry and all over the job they are getting paid for anyway and a few miss shots wont ruin their collection of work, heck even the bride and groom wont realize he/she missed a few moment, we are humans anyway and humans make mistake regardless of how perfect we try to become.

Sorry if I offend anyone :)

I totally respect those pros who say, "I am still learning and by no means a pro" or something like that. That show how humble those photographer is.

[ftaok]

Hmm, okay not to make anyone angry or something, but seriously, how do you classify "pro" I seriously think that word got no meaning right now cause I've seen many people work and they by no means consider themselves pro but the standard they give you, just make you say out loud "pro" whereas there is another crowd where they are labelled as "pro" while in truth their work is just okay and not THAT special, I guess they are just called "pro" cause of the fancy equipments they have :rolleyes:. snip
I guess in the true sense of the word, a pro is anyone who gets paid for their work.

Whether or not they are any good is an entirely different matter. That's why there is such a wide disparity of prices for a wedding photographer. The good/great pros charge accordingly for their services. Inexperienced pros probably charge less.

Anyways, here's a less serious take on the matter from Ken Rockwell (http://kenrockwell.com/tech/7.htm).

[Marlat]

Hmm, okay not to make anyone angry or something, but seriously, how do you classify "pro" I seriously think that word got no meaning right now cause I've seen many people work and they by no means consider themselves pro but the standard they give you, just make you say out loud "pro" whereas there is another crowd where they are labelled as "pro" while in truth their work is just okay and not THAT special, I guess they are just called "pro" cause of the fancy equipments they have :rolleyes:.

So seriously, how do you classify pro? Some people in this post mentioned that a "pro" photographer says that he/she should have followed the advice of another people, so would that still means he/she a pro? or he/she is called a pro only cause he/she got lucky and end up getting paid for his/her interest and owning fancy equipment?

I am saying this cause I get a bit shocked when I hear photographers acting angry and all over the job they are getting paid for anyway and a few miss shots wont ruin their collection of work, heck even the bride and groom wont realize he/she missed a few moment, we are humans anyway and humans make mistake regardless of how perfect we try to become.

Sorry if I offend anyone :)

I totally respect those pros who say, "I am still learning and by no means a pro" or something like that. That show how humble those photographer is.

I guess they can be annoyed because they are paid for unforgetable moments captured in nice photos. And I don't know how much post-processing they are willing to do, but getting the flash of a flash-gun out of a photo is nearly impossible. If I were paid it would get on my nerve. Ok, mom and pop want nice photos too, but they have to understand that there is someone who was paid for that.

I won't be in the way of the paid shooter (let's call him this, and not pro, ok?) :) I will be getting more opportunities to take nice photos myself. So I don't mind, if I lose one photo. Besides: I'm there to enjoy myself ;)

[snberk103]

I guess the groom doesn't even know what kind of pro photog he wants (or will be hiring). It's a bit of a mess at the moment - the only thing that's definite is the date of the wedding.

I'm a pro, but I don't do weddings... if you screw up you don't get a 2nd chance. I don't need that kind of stress. You don't need that kind of stress.

When I'm asked about wedding photographers, I tell the couple that they should be prepared to spend to big bucks on the wedding photos. You can sometimes get a pro shooter for less than pro shooter price, but you can't count on it.

In 10 or 20 years they won't be sitting front of the fire, leafing through the reception menu or the DJ play-lists..... they will be going through their photo albums. They need to make sure they have the photographs in the first place.

[snberk103]

My second comment, is that your friend probably asked you to shoot the wedding based on what he saw of your existing work, and your "look". Don't go and change what you shoot because all of a sudden you are shooting the wedding. You said you did party stuff, etc.... then shoot this wedding just like your other work. Its what your friend likes.

Based on your friend's comment about not worrying about getting in the way of their photographer... a really nice wedding present would be to hire the another photographer for them (maybe get a few people to kick in some of the cost). They obviously don't respect the one they have. Go and look at a dozen or so photographers portfolios. On this short notice you may have problems finding one that is good, but you never know.... perhaps there is a cancellation.

If you arranged the photographer, you could make it clear up front what you would like to do, and arrange to step on each other's toes.

[Phrasikleia]

I am saying this cause I get a bit shocked when I hear photographers acting angry and all over the job they are getting paid for anyway and a few miss shots wont ruin their collection of work, heck even the bride and groom wont realize he/she missed a few moment, we are humans anyway and humans make mistake regardless of how perfect we try to become.

In some countries wedding photography is taken less seriously. In the United States, however, it's a huge deal. The best photographers show up with a team of assistants who might get secondary angles, hold reflectors, herd the crowd, etc. The shots then go through a substantial polishing phase in PP and are usually presented in elaborate albums. The best of them get paid many thousands of dollars for their services. This has been going on for decades, and expectations in the US are very high because of it. There are a number of standard shots that most American clients expect, and if any of those are missing, the photographer could be in big trouble (remember that the United States is an exceedingly litigious country). Wedding photographers are therefore under a lot of pressure in the US, hence all the stress and fretting you hear. They're not just worried about getting great shots for their portfolio; they're worried about getting sued or about angry clients trying to blackball them in a community.

In other countries, it's a much more lackadaisical affair. Expectations are not as high, and photographers can afford to miss some shots--no big deal, so long as they come through with some good ones. Perhaps you're more used to that kind of an environment?

[Marlat]

My second comment, is that your friend probably asked you to shoot the wedding based on what he saw of your existing work, and your "look". Don't go and change what you shoot because all of a sudden you are shooting the wedding. You said you did party stuff, etc.... then shoot this wedding just like your other work. Its what your friend likes.

Based on your friend's comment about not worrying about getting in the way of their photographer... a really nice wedding present would be to hire the another photographer for them (maybe get a few people to kick in some of the cost). They obviously don't respect the one they have. Go and look at a dozen or so photographers portfolios. On this short notice you may have problems finding one that is good, but you never know.... perhaps there is a cancellation.

If you arranged the photographer, you could make it clear up front what you would like to do, and arrange to step on each other's toes.

I doubt that they have a paid shooter in the first place. Like I said: they are a bit on a limited budget. But I don't want to speak bad about my friend - besides it's an honor for me, that he asked me in the first place.

[gerlan]

Sorry Marlat, but i am having technical prob with my computer- failed twice to enter message- will re send tomorrow- Trust me I've been where you'r going, so hope advice will suit.

[Marlat]

Sorry Marlat, but i am having technical prob with my computer- failed twice to enter message- will re send tomorrow- Trust me I've been where you'r going, so hope advice will suit.

Awesome, I'm looking forward to it. :)

[gerlan]

1)Why auto?- its important to you and the Groom. If you are comfortable with manual settings Great- if unsure why risk missing shot or making mistakes- I took a new Nikon out of box to my niece's wedding last year, autofocus is good so i caught every shot i wanted, good quality, no mishaps Couple were delighted. I am convinced that on that occasion my shots were better because i was totally relaxed!
2) CS4- now you're 'showing off;' Excellent
7) i was thinking NIKON (85mm f1.8 is one third price of f1.4- anything similar for you?) Even 105mm excellent for portraiture- i prefer prime lenses which is where i believe most of your budget should be spent (on lens that is, whichever lens you choose)
Re Pro will get back to you before anymore tech probs through me out)

[snberk103]

I doubt that they have a paid shooter in the first place. Like I said: they are a bit on a limited budget. But I don't want to speak bad about my friend - besides it's an honor for me, that he asked me in the first place.

That is an even better reason to hire them a wedding photographer. As I said earlier, in 20 years its nice to have some wedding photos. And, regardless of your skill as a photographer, you already have a job... as a friend you are there to eat their food, get a little tipsy on champagne, tell slightly embarrassing stories about the groom (never the bride unless you are a parent or maid of honour), and dance. Let a pro capture the formal shots, and you can have some fun with your particular way of shooting.

[gerlan]

And yet more!

Re Pro- maybe it does vary from area to area (or country)- I have never had problem when introducing myself to Pro, made it clear that they should not be shy in telling me if i get in their way! (if they did mind they missed their chance to say!). On every occasion of this nature The Pro has controlled their GIG- They have asked the crowd who wants to take photos, explained that after every set up the guest would get their chance to take a snap and duly turned to the guests and invited them to take their shots as and when it was apropriate- I am not aware that guests ever spoiled this common arrangement.- guests don't want to spoil the Big Day either! Its gonna hapen, its silly for a Pro not to deal with it to their advantage- USA aside IT SEEMS TO WORK??

Its not a competition- Pro has arsenal of Full Frame Body/tripod/light metre/lighting and Oh yes a bag full of lenses, the cheapest of which will buy every piece of equipment amongst the congregation, twice over!! Invest in the best lenses you can afford, everything else can either follow or be upgraded later.Oh and forgot to mention Pro SKILL IN ARSENAL!
have missed anything? Trust me- you will produce great shots if you concentrate on making the picture, and you can enjoy the day also ??!!

[sejanus]

Hmm, okay not to make anyone angry or something, but seriously, how do you classify "pro" I seriously think that word got no meaning right now cause I've seen many people work and they by no means consider themselves pro but the standard they give you, just make you say out loud "pro" whereas there is another crowd where they are labelled as "pro" while in truth their work is just okay and not THAT special, I guess they are just called "pro" cause of the fancy equipments they have :rolleyes:.

So seriously, how do you classify pro? Some people in this post mentioned that a "pro" photographer says that he/she should have followed the advice of another people, so would that still means he/she a pro? or he/she is called a pro only cause he/she got lucky and end up getting paid for his/her interest and owning fancy equipment?

I am saying this cause I get a bit shocked when I hear photographers acting angry and all over the job they are getting paid for anyway and a few miss shots wont ruin their collection of work, heck even the bride and groom wont realize he/she missed a few moment, we are humans anyway and humans make mistake regardless of how perfect we try to become.

Sorry if I offend anyone :)

I totally respect those pros who say, "I am still learning and by no means a pro" or something like that. That show how humble those photographer is.

I agree there is a lot of people out there passing themselves off as pros who aren't very high standard. Actually at the moment I'm trying to help a couple out who got ripped off by a photographic company who came to their wedding and shot garbage all day long.

This is why I got into wedding photography, because there was so much rubbish out there. I'm lucky enough to have turned it into a full time job and be fairly well sought after.

In general I don't mind other guests taking photos because it will show the couple how much better mine are :) As long as the guests don't get in my way, they can shoot as much as they like. Very rarely do I get guests who get in my way though, it's only happened 3-4 times in 300 odd weddings.

I'm in Australia - my wedding website is http://www.catoandpade.com.au

[wheelhot]

In some countries wedding photography is taken less seriously. In the United States, however, it's a huge deal. The best photographers show up with a team of assistants who might get secondary angles, hold reflectors, herd the crowd, etc. The shots then go through a substantial polishing phase in PP and are usually presented in elaborate albums. The best of them get paid many thousands of dollars for their services. This has been going on for decades, and expectations in the US are very high because of it. There are a number of standard shots that most American clients expect, and if any of those are missing, the photographer could be in big trouble (remember that the United States is an exceedingly litigious country). Wedding photographers are therefore under a lot of pressure in the US, hence all the stress and fretting you hear. They're not just worried about getting great shots for their portfolio; they're worried about getting sued or about angry clients trying to blackball them in a community.

In other countries, it's a much more lackadaisical affair. Expectations are not as high, and photographers can afford to miss some shots--no big deal, so long as they come through with some good ones. Perhaps you're more used to that kind of an environment?
Thanks for spending your time writing this, really enlightening. And yea, guess its very competitive there but still, to me doesn't justify the right getting pissed off cause they will have more then 1 shot of a single place and that let say they didn't have a great shot there, there are still many other great shots taken from that day that will compensate this problem. Of course he could also be polite and request to the guest to let him do his work first and later let the guest take photos.

Well I heard that some weddings, there are 2 photogs, 1 is for official and the other as candid. Anyone did/seen this before?

[gerlan]

UK Pro often pulls out 'STD' DSLR to take candids in between set ups?
Agree hire Pro- My brother received quotes between £1500.00-£2500.00 for niece's wedding and settled on person who 'connected' with them at home visit- haven't seen official photos yet but i know she was worth it just by observation.
If your friend really can't afford a Pro- what about local UNIVERSITY/COLLEGE lecturer recommending top notch student? Better than no Pro at all and they should really do their best if only for some fumnds and their portfolio? But get lecturer to recommend person suitable.

Meanwhile you will have loads of opportunity to get your shots- have i mentioned this??

[Phrasikleia]

Thanks for spending your time writing this, really enlightening. And yea, guess its very competitive there but still, to me doesn't justify the right getting pissed off cause they will have more then 1 shot of a single place and that let say they didn't have a great shot there, there are still many other great shots taken from that day that will compensate this problem. Of course he could also be polite and request to the guest to let him do his work first and later let the guest take photos.

Well I heard that some weddings, there are 2 photogs, 1 is for official and the other as candid. Anyone did/seen this before?

Yes, I've heard of teams that have one designated photographer for doing candids in addition to the main photographer and assistants getting the more formal shots.

As for getting shots "of a single place:" it's also about single moments (the first appearance of the bride, the father of the bride handing her off to the groom, the groom putting a ring on the bride's finger, the first kiss, the bouquet being tossed and caught, etc.). A missed moment cannot be redone.

[wheelhot]

As for getting shots "of a single place:" it's also about single moments (the first appearance of the bride, the father of the bride handing her off to the groom, the groom putting a ring on the bride's finger, the first kiss, the bouquet being tossed and caught, etc.). A missed moment cannot be redone.

Excellent examples, totally forgot about those :o

[Marlat]

UK Pro often pulls out 'STD' DSLR to take candids in between set ups?
Agree hire Pro- My brother received quotes between £1500.00-£2500.00 for niece's wedding and settled on person who 'connected' with them at home visit- haven't seen official photos yet but i know she was worth it just by observation.
If your friend really can't afford a Pro- what about local UNIVERSITY/COLLEGE lecturer recommending top notch student? Better than no Pro at all and they should really do their best if only for some fumnds and their portfolio? But get lecturer to recommend person suitable.

Meanwhile you will have loads of opportunity to get your shots- have i mentioned this??

I'll qoute the last of your posts, but will comment on some earlier ones.

Your lens advice is well appreciated, but I don't have a Nikon DSLR, I got a Pentax one ;) That's no disadvantage, but it has some limitations. Primarily concerning the autofocus. It's a bit noisy - and almost none third party lenses have HSM (or SWM or whatever it's called by the other manufactures). That's why I'm currently looking for a tele zoom (the Pentax one and the Sigma one have sonic motors in them).

Regarding CS4, I'm not showing off, I just had the luck, that I'm a student and got the version dirt cheap - otherwise I would have used Apple iPhoto which I got with my macbook. :)

I'm really grateful for all your tips and hints. I'll remember them when it's time. :)

[Marlat]

Excellent examples, totally forgot about those :o

I guess even the 'pro' will have his gripes with these shots :D As I heard, the priest is a bit anal, and doesn't allow any photos at all. But the groom is in discussion with him. Let's see what's coming out of this. :rolleyes:

[termina3]

the priest is a bit anal, and doesn't allow any photos at all.

Has he done a wedding in the past 30 years?

It sounds like you're going into a hostile situation; just stay cool and relaxed when someone starts yelling at you.

[Marlat]

Has he done a wedding in the past 30 years?

It sounds like you're going into a hostile situation; just stay cool and relaxed when someone starts yelling at you.

To keep it short: my buddy is catholic and his bride is protestant. So he wanted a catholic wedding, but the church said no (the pries said he hadn't time). Then they wanted to be married by a protestant, and now the catholic church is giving them a hard time. I don't really know what the new priest is so mad against photographs. But the groom'll talk to him, maybe it's just a misunderstanding.

[TheReef]

The DA* 55-135mm f2.8 would be in a useful range.


I still highly recommend the Pentax 360 FGZ wireless flash unit...

If you get one, be sure to make large bounce card for it and use it wirelessly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNCmuExlHvM

[Marlat]

The DA* 55-135mm f2.8 would be in a useful range.


I still highly recommend the Pentax 360 FGZ wireless flash unit...

If you get one, be sure to make large bounce card for it and use it wirelessly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNCmuExlHvM

Regarding flashes: which batteries should I use? I have some eneloop 2100mAh ones here, are they enough, or should I get stronger ones?

And second: do I understand wireless flash right? The on body flash fires a small impulse that the external flash gun recieves and triggers it to fire a flash blast?

EDIT: The youtube link sounds really interessting, gotta try it when I have chosen a flash unit. I am a bit jumpy on my decision :)

[TheReef]

Regarding flashes: which batteries should I use? I have some eneloop 2100mAh ones here, are they enough, or should I get stronger ones?

And second: do I understand wireless flash right? The on body flash fires a small impulse that the external flash gun recieves and triggers it to fire a flash blast?

EDIT: The youtube link sounds really interessting, gotta try it when I have chosen a flash unit. I am a bit jumpy on my decision :)

2100mAh should be fine, be sure to carry a set of 4 spares though, depends on how many times you use the flash obviously, as the batteries drain towards empty the time it takes to charge the flash increases.

Yes you are correct, popup the internal Flash to trigger the wireless flash, it works well.

Think of this as an opportunity to have some fun and be creative, don't stress, you have the Pro to take all the stress :p, enjoy yourself :)

[Marlat]

2100mAh should be fine, be sure to carry a set of 4 spares though, depends on how many times you use the flash obviously, as the batteries drain towards empty the time it takes to charge the flash increases.

Yes you are correct, popup the internal Flash to trigger the wireless flash, it works well.

Think of this as an opportunity to have some fun and be creative, don't stress, you have the Pro to take all the stress :p, enjoy yourself :)

Thank god, that the wedding is in june, that give me enough time to practice :)

[rouxeny]

I am going to a wedding this weekend. The B&G just asked me to "take a few candid shots."

Seems like an easy situation to find yourself in.