Snow Leopard in September, Xserve in June, Mac Pro Speed Boost, and More?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/04/01/snow-leopard-in-september-xserve-in-june-mac-pro-speed-boost-and-more/)

HardMac posted (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2009/04/01/instead-of-april-fool-jokes-we-offer-you-some-rumours) a collection of rumors they've received. They don't seem particularly confident about the information but do provides some believable tidbits:

- Snow Leopard will not be ready before September. Significant amounts of work left on QuickTime X, Open CL, and Grand Central
- New Xserve in June alongside a Mac Pro bump to 3.2GHz with Quadro FX 5800
- Notebooks to move to Nehalem in November
- Final Cut Studio 3, DVD Studio Pro, Shake, Logic updates.

The Mac Pro 3.2GHz speed boost is conceivable as Intel did officially release the Nehalem Xeon (http://blogs.pcmag.com/miller/2009/03/the_new_xeons_a_big_step_forwa.php) processors that run up to 3.2GHz. Apple currently only offers Mac Pros that run up to 2.93GHz.

Article Link: Snow Leopard in September, Xserve in June, Mac Pro Speed Boost, and More? (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/04/01/snow-leopard-in-september-xserve-in-june-mac-pro-speed-boost-and-more/)

[Grimace]

I imagine that the 3.2Ghz will be even more expensive, and won't push the 2.26 out of the lineup to reshuffle the price mix.

2.26: $3299
2.66: + $1400
2.93: + $2600
3.20: + $3200?

That 4GB Nvidia card is a beast! But my understanding is that is more useful for crunching numbers, and not as much for gaming.

[11800506]

The bump might make a lot of people angry though. Maybe that would also include a bump of the 2.26 to the 2.4?

As for Snow Leopard, I think September sounds a little late. Other rumors have more pegged it as an August release. All these rumors sound plausible however.

[Boneoh]

Grand Crental! My imagination is running wild, LOL. :p

And the linked article at hardmac called it Large Central! LOL

[dwsolberg]

It's interesting about Snow Leopard not being ready, but it makes sense based on other information. It doesn't look like they'll have a feature-complete developer build until the developer conference, and it'll take some time after that to squash bugs. I'm excited Snow Leopard, but I want it to be stable and FAST.

[sn00pie]

Bumping to Nehalem? That's going to make a few people angry.

[Sky Blue]

August/September looks likely for Snow Leopard.

[Moof1904]

Dear Apple,

Please learn from recent events (Leopard and MobileMe come to mind) and please do not release Snow Leopard until it's fully ready, even if that's September (or even December).

Yes, we want it today but we very much want it to not suck.

Love,

We who are making you tons of money

[Umbongo]

The 3.2GHz and Quadro FX options are no brainers to suggest, but I'm not convinced we will see them so soon.

The question is why didn't Apple have them at launch? For the processors I've seen it suggested Apple launched Nehalem early when Intel didn't want them to, so it may have been they didn't have enough supply of the 3.2GHz processors. The Quadro FX 5800 had been out 4 months when the Mac Pros launched so are Apple struggling for engineering resources?

When was the last time Apple bumped processor speed 3 months after the launch of a product?

[Schtumple]

Bumping to Nehalem? That's going to make a few people angry.

By November the unibodies would've been out a full year, I think that's sufficient time for an update... Anybody that does complain is just doing so for the sake of it.

[swissmann]

DVD studio pro update? Hopefully with full Blu-Ray support.

[voyagerd]

I probably wont be able to afford a Mac Pro until June, even if I do get $1000 for my G5.

[DELLsFan]

Dear Apple,

Please learn from recent events (Leopard and MobileMe come to mind) and please do not release Snow Leopard until it's fully ready, even if that's September (or even December).

Yes, we want it today but we very much want it to not suck.

Love,

We who are making you tons of money

+1

Since this release doesn't look to WOW with much that is new, they can take all the time they want - to make OSX even more perfect. :apple:

[fleshman03]

Meh that killed my hopes and dreams.

I was hoping to get a new MBP w/ Nehalem w/ 4-8gb RAM w/ Snow Leopard over the summer. Poo Poo.


Oh well. I guess 3k will be in the bank (or under the mattress... IDK which is safer) till then and my coming iPhone will need to do.

Or maybe there will be a bad ass Tablet/netbook @ WWDC. That would allow me to get that + a MP + the new Display.

[iMacmatician]

Interesting rumor set…maybe it's time for me to get out of my more-pessimistic-than-usual state I've been in since March 3. :D

- Snow Leopard will not be ready before September. Significant amounts of work left on QuickTime X, Open CL, and Grand CentralAgreed.

- New Xserve in June alongside a Mac Pro bump to 3.2GHz with Quadro FX 5800Feasible, although I believe the 3.2 GHz will be an addition (like the 2007 Clovertown) rather than a replacement for the 2.93 GHz (with everything else shifted down).

- Notebooks to move to Nehalem in NovemberSince Clarksfield is 45/55 W (35/45 W in Penryn terms), only the low-end Clarksfield(s) are likely to be able to fit in the MacBook Pro unless cooling has been improved. Since the MacBook uses 25 W CPUs, who knows if they'll be able to support Clarksfield. MacBook Air…nope.

Also, Clarksfield is to be as high-end as the current 2.0/2.27/2.53 GHz quad-cores (which are $348 to $1038), so I doubt they'll be used in the MacBooks (which use $241 and cheaper CPUs).

But if Apple gets Arrandale early (Intel said production in Q4 I think), then we could see Clarksfield/Arrandale notebooks in November, although I don't think that's likely.

- Final Cut Studio 3, DVD Studio Pro, Shake, Logic updates.Agreed.

By November the unibodies would've been out a full year, I think that's sufficient time for an update...Unless they get updated in the next few months with the Penryn updates.

[gan6660]

DVD studio pro update? Hopefully with full Blu-Ray support.

I hope macs will support blu ray and that blu ray drives will come in notebooks soon.

[iBug2]

Dear Apple,

Please learn from recent events (Leopard and MobileMe come to mind) and please do not release Snow Leopard until it's fully ready, even if that's September (or even December).

Yes, we want it today but we very much want it to not suck.

Love,

We who are making you tons of money

When will people get it. There's no such thing is fully ready. Every OS will go through revisions all the time and they'll never be fully ready. As long as it's ready for "most" stuff, it's ok to be released.

[W1LLk]

+1

Since this release doesn't look to WOW with much that is new, they can take all the time they want - to make OSX even more perfect. :apple:

I wouldn't be right to release "snow" leopard in the summer anyways. :D

[Grimace]

3.2 with Blu-ray writer, to compliment the BR support in Final Cut Studio 3! :)

[iBug2]

I wouldn't be right to release "snow" leopard in the summer anyways. :D

Hahahahahaha, good one :)

[Moof1904]

When will people get it. There's no such thing is fully ready. Every OS will go through revisions all the time and they'll never be fully ready. As long as it's ready for "most" stuff, it's ok to be released.

I spent 12 years in the software development field. I understand that nothing is perfect. "Fully ready" is a term I used to mean that the appropriate balance of timeliness and quality had been struck.

[shamino]

It's interesting about Snow Leopard not being ready, but it makes sense based on other information. It doesn't look like they'll have a feature-complete developer build until the developer conference, and it'll take some time after that to squash bugs. I'm excited Snow Leopard, but I want it to be stable and FAST.
Agreed. This release, more than ever, must have the mantra "better late than broken" (assuming it's not insanely late, of course.)

When you're releasing a version that has no major externally-visible features, then it had better be rock-solid. Otherwise, the press and the bloggers (and a lot of other people) will start writing "all this did was make perfectly good systems start breaking." The presence of an all-new internal architecture won't matter one whit to non-developers.

[iMacmatician]

Apple will start to re-examine its range of video software and will start with Final Cut Studio 3. It will certainly be announced during the next months, but in a 32 bit version. An update to 64 bits compatible only with Snow Leopard will be offered after the release of Snow Leopard. This OS will be obligatory because one will need QuickTime X. This will be even able to work with the RED cameras.Okay…yeah…I tend to agree here.

[Schtumple]

Unless they get updated in the next few months with the Penryn updates.

But that won't be a major bump, nothing to get too upset over...

[miggitymac]

SL in Sept and Nehalem in Nov...throw in non-defective NVidia cards and I'm sold!

[Eric S.]

- Notebooks to move to Nehalem in November

So Clarksfield will be shipping in November?

[Michael73]

The Quadro FX 5800 has got to be for the halo effect. The list price of that card ($3,100) is equal to the cost of the MacPro. I can't imagine they'll sell too many of that card.

Where I used to work, anything over $2,500 was deemed a capital purchase and received A LOT more scrutiny. I'm glad I'm not the one who would have to explain why one of my developers has to have that card.

[iMacmatician]

But that won't be a major bump, nothing to get too upset over...Except that other components like HD and GPU may receive significant boosts. I'm also hoping for a resolution boost in the near future. A midyear bump would go nicely with an Arrandale update in Q1 2010.

No update until Nehalem would be like the iMac, in that update cycles are getting closer to a year.

So Clarksfield will be shipping in November?Q3 2009 is what I've heard.

[jcwacky]

- Final Cut Studio 3, DVD Studio Pro, Shake, Logic updates.
No mention of Aperture 3? :( Have Apple abandoned Aperture?

[Jamo12]

When was the last time Apple bumped processor speed 3 months after the launch of a product?

Didn't they bump the 15" unibody macbook pro's speed from 2.8GHz to 2.93GHz right after the new unibody 17" came out?

[manu chao]

Grand Crental! My imagination is running wild, LOL. :p

And the linked article at hardmac called it Large Central! LOL
Hardmac most likely uses machine translations to translate the original French content at macbidouille.com into English, with a human just touching things up. And that human missed that glitch.

[iMacmatician]

Didn't they bump the 15" unibody macbook pro's speed from 2.8GHz to 2.93GHz right after the new unibody 17" came out?They've done that several other times with the MacBook Pros, although one time was the addition of a BTO 2.6 GHz CPU to the top 2 models.

And the linked article at hardmac called it Large Central! LOLFAIL!

:D

[reallynotnick]

Ugh none of these rumors are in my favor. I'm probably looking at a low end 15in MBP, I would hope there is some kind of update before then. I really want a bigger battery and matte screen like on the 17in. Also having it come with snow leopard come on it would save me some money.

[gmcalpin]

Oh well. I guess 3k will be in the bank (or under the mattress... IDK which is safer) till then and my coming iPhone will need to do.
In the bank, you'll earn a massive 1% interest. If you're lucky.

[iMacmatician]

Ugh none of these rumors are in my favor. I'm probably looking at a low end 15in MBP, I would hope there is some kind of update before then. I really want a bigger battery and matte screen like on the 17in. Also having it come with snow leopard come on it would save me some money.I got a low-end MacBook Pro not long ago and when the other two models were bumped it was kinda both a good thing (2.4 GHz is still current) and a bad thing (low-end MBP wasn't bumped). :D

I would also like to see 17"-type batteries on the rest of the Apple lineup.

[gmcalpin]

So Clarksfield will be shipping in November?
That sounds about right.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/21/intels-clarksfield-to-begin-production-in-second-half-of-2009/

(no date in the article, but "second half of 2009" to begin production and a November release fit.)
I would also like to see 17"-type batteries on the rest of the Apple lineup.
Shhhhh. You'll wake the trolls.

[JohnMC]

I don't get how this rumor could be found plausible. Shake was a disco product a few years ago, but now they are going to bring it back? Seems weird to me. If they do bring it back, the studios who paid 100K+ for the source code to shake will be very mad.

[Anonymous Freak]

The original MacBook Pro had its speed bumped between announcement and release (From 1.66/1.83 to 1.83/2.0;) then the addition of an even higher BTO speed a little after that (BTO 2.13)! And the higher BTO proc dropped in price by a not insignificant amount only a couple months later. So at time of announcement in January, high end was 1.83 GHz for $2499; in March, high end 'stock' was 2.0 GHz for $2499, $2799 for 2.13 GHz, by April, high end was 2.13 GHz for $2599.

As for the 3.2 GHz Mac Pro; the issue here is heat. The 2.93 GHz processor is a 95 Watt (http://ark.intel.com/cpu.aspx?groupId=37111) part, the 3.2 GHz processor is a 130 Watt (http://ark.intel.com/cpu.aspx?groupID=37113) part. That extra 70 Watts (combined between two processors,) might be too much for the existing cooling system.

[iMacmatician]

I don't get how this rumor could be found plausible. Shake was a disco product a few years ago, but now they are going to bring it back? Seems weird to me. If they do bring it back, the studios who paid 100K+ for the source code to shake will be very mad.Could be the rumored successor ("Phenomenon").

[Ambrose Chapel]

i really hope that the iMac gets Nehalem at around the same time as the "portables" or i won't be too pleased...

[iSee]

If they update people get angry.
If they don't update people get angry.

[Dias]

Shake was discontinued, to begin with. That's enough to assume that everything else are fake rumors.

[coolfactor]

Was there ever a release date published by Apple? If not, then there's nothing to say that September would be "late". Leopard is running great, so I don't see why they need to rush to supersede it.

[iMacmatician]

The original MacBook Pro had its speed bumped between announcement and release (From 1.66/1.83 to 1.83/2.0;) then the addition of an even higher BTO speed a little after that (BTO 2.13)! And the higher BTO proc dropped in price by a not insignificant amount only a couple months later.I thought the BTO 2.17 GHz was added at the same time as the standard models were bumped to 1.83/2.0.

Was there ever a release date published by Apple? If not, then there's nothing to say that September would be "late". Leopard is running great, so I don't see why they need to rush to supersede it."About a year" after WWDC 2008 in June.

[jeffy.dee-lux]

I wonder if the Logic update will be Logic 9 or just a point release. I wish they hadn't said anything about Logic.... I was all set to buy it (in non-upgradeable academic version).

[nuckinfutz]

Very shaky rumor

Hell anyone of us could have posted that.

I'm of the opinion that they have no credible sources here.

[11800506]

Interesting too that the original HardMac rumor makes significant mentions of Blu-Ray. I'd be skeptical of Apple finally supporting it, but putting it into Snow Leopard does make some sense.

[KevinPlusPlus]

I wouldn't be right to release "snow" leopard in the summer anyways. :D

When it's summer in one half of the globe, it's winter in the other...

[iMacmatician]

Very shaky rumor

Hell anyone of us could have posted that.

I'm of the opinion that they have no credible sources here.I'm starting to think these rumors might be closer to what we would like to see rather than what really will happen, especially from the Nehalem notebooks in November bit.

[Marx55]

"Notebooks to move to Nehalem in November".

Hopefully like this:

Next Apple moves will be Books and Games…
http://spidouz.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/next-apple-moves-will-be-books-and-games

[iSee]

- Notebooks to move to Nehalem in November

Is there any way there could be a quad-core MBP?

I'm thinking about upgrading from my 1st gen MBP, and I'd love it if it could go quad-core when plugged in. Nov '09 is good timing for me, too...

[blueicedj]

would they be updating the express versions of their software or just the pro ones?

[Anonymous Freak]

I would also like to see 17"-type batteries on the rest of the Apple lineup.

heh.

The two machines I want to see Apple release:

The MacBook mini, almost exactly as the (almost certainly faked) mockup looks (with an American keyboard for me, though.)

A 15" MacBook Pro that is the exact same specs as the newly-released 17".

I either want a 'full' featured 15", or a true subnotebook. I grudgingly replaced my 12" PowerBook G4 with a 15" MacBook Pro; and have come to accept my MBP's form factor. But would still like to return to a subnotebook.

[iMacmatician]

The MacBook mini, almost exactly as the (almost certainly faked) mockup looks (with an American keyboard for me, though.)That too, although I'm not so sure about the specs that came along with the mockup.

[Eidorian]

New stuff can't come soon enough.

[amac4me]

Clearly, Apple will release Snow Leopard weeks AFTER it's demo'd at WWDC.

[Cliff3]

Dear Apple,

Please learn from recent events (Leopard and MobileMe come to mind) and please do not release Snow Leopard until it's fully ready, even if that's September (or even December).

Yes, we want it today but we very much want it to not suck.

Love,

We who are making you tons of money

Agreed. And TALK TO YOUR ISVs - I don't want to wait until the .2 release to upgrade because you broke Lightroom.

[Goona]

If they update people get angry.
If they don't update people get angry.

That's the whole story of the Apple world.

[joeshell383]

SL in Sept and Nehalem in Nov...throw in non-defective NVidia cards and I'm sold!

You're tough to impress. :rolleyes:

[sl1200mk2]

Dear Apple,

Please learn from recent events (Leopard and MobileMe come to mind) and please do not release Snow Leopard until it's fully ready, even if that's September (or even December).

Yes, we want it today but we very much want it to not suck.

Love,

We who are making you tons of money


Personally, I don't care if it's September 2010 or 2011. Just get it right. I can perfectly live with the current version of Leopard until then.

[bigtriece]

No chance in hell arrandale 32nm in q4.

Expect q2 2010 folks.

But Dell will have it in q4 2009, they always get the new intel chips (eg. i7) before Apple.

[mdntcallr]

I hope macs will support blu ray and that blu ray drives will come in notebooks soon.

me also, it is sickening how long Apple is stalling on Blu-Ray.

I want a Mac Pro or Imac 24" that can write and playback blu-ray.

on MBP, i'd take model which just reads blu-ray and burns DVD/CD's

[iMacmatician]

No chance in hell arrandale 32nm in q4.

Expect q2 2010 folks.

But Dell will have it in q4 2009, they always get the new intel chips (eg. i7) before Apple.Notably except for Gainestown.

[nuckinfutz]

No chance in hell arrandale 32nm in q4.

Expect q2 2010 folks.

But Dell will have it in q4 2009, they always get the new intel chips (eg. i7) before Apple.

Seeing as how Apple doesn't buy Bloomfield Core i7 chips here it would have been impossible for you to be wrong here.

me also, it is sickening how long Apple is stalling on Blu-Ray.

I want a Mac Pro or Imac 24" that can write and playback blu-ray.

on MBP, i'd take model which just reads blu-ray and burns DVD/CD's

Sickening..yes but also obvious. Apple's in the content selling business with iTunes. They'll eventually support Blu-ray but my guess is they'll attach it to $$$ Mac Pro purchases.

[rhett7660]

By November the unibodies would've been out a full year, I think that's sufficient time for an update... Anybody that does complain is just doing so for the sake of it.

I agree..... Pushing updates to hardware within or at a year is great. Keep em coming!

[Yvan256]

Well, I guess this means a new Mac mini around september for me. After all those months of waiting for a decent Mac mini, I'm now waiting for the new version of Mac OS X. It makes no sense to buy a 730$CAD computer now and pay 130$CAD later for a new version of the OS when I got a perfectly functional Mac mini with Leopard right now.

I'm upgrading because of the (much) better GPU, the slightly faster CPU, the DVD burner, FW800 and the new maximum of 4GB RAM. :eek:

I just hope it's available for my birthday! :cool:

[Eric S.]

Was there ever a release date published by Apple? If not, then there's nothing to say that September would be "late". Leopard is running great, so I don't see why they need to rush to supersede it.

"About a year" after WWDC 2008 in June.

Also when Leopard was released (October '07) Apple said its goal was to make future OS releases in 12-18 month intervals, after Leopard had taken 2.5 years from Tiger.

[LaDirection]

I hope macs will support blu ray and that blu ray drives will come in notebooks soon.

The original story is much more in depth in french. Hardmac is a super badly translated version of Macbidouile.

In a nutshell: developper builds of Snow Leopard will soon start to include Blu-Ray support, but the official release might drop them if the Apple can't get a licensing agreement with Sony. The problem as Macbidouille has been reporting for over a year is that Sony wants Apple to open the OS X kernel and build DRM Blu-ray protection into it. Apple refuses.

DVD Studio pro updated with Blu Ray authoring support has been available for a while but will not be realized until a licensing deal is signed.

As for the RED part, the actual rumor says that Quicktime X (and therefore all FCS app) will offer native RED raw playback and edit.

[commander.data]

The 3.2GHz and Quadro FX options are no brainers to suggest, but I'm not convinced we will see them so soon.

The question is why didn't Apple have them at launch? For the processors I've seen it suggested Apple launched Nehalem early when Intel didn't want them to, so it may have been they didn't have enough supply of the 3.2GHz processors. The Quadro FX 5800 had been out 4 months when the Mac Pros launched so are Apple struggling for engineering resources?

When was the last time Apple bumped processor speed 3 months after the launch of a product?
I think the Quadro FX 5800 is very likely since the Mac Pro is missing a high-end GPU option. The 512MB HD4870 is a mid-range card with a MSRP of $150 so it should have replaced the HD2600XT not the 8800GT. Personally, I'm hoping that Apple adds the upcoming 1GB HD4890 alongside the Quadro FX 5800 since the HD4890 is a true high-end GPU.

The delay with the Quadro FX 5800 probably isn't engineering resources on Apple's part but more availability of the 55nm GT200b chips since I'm guessing nVidia is concentrating them on the desktop market to beat back ATI's HD48xx series.

In regards the 3.2GHz model, if it's introduced it'll have to be as an option on top rather than directly replacing a previous model since Intel has no near-term Xeon price drops planned. People shouldn't have much reason to complain since there would be no changes to existing configurations.

As for the 3.2 GHz Mac Pro; the issue here is heat. The 2.93 GHz processor is a 95 Watt (http://ark.intel.com/cpu.aspx?groupId=37111) part, the 3.2 GHz processor is a 130 Watt (http://ark.intel.com/cpu.aspx?groupID=37113) part. That extra 70 Watts (combined between two processors,) might be too much for the existing cooling system.
Heat shouldn't be a big issue. The 3.2GHz Harpertowns used in the previous Mac Pros had 150W TDPs for 300W total. Dual 3.2GHz Nehalems with 2x130W TDPs would still have breathing room.

Personally, I'm still disappointed with Apple's overall CPU choices for the Mac Pro. The entry level Nehalem Mac Pro uses a 130W TDP 2.66GHz W5320 which costs $284 (http://ark.intel.com/cpu.aspx?groupID=39718&code=W3520). In contrast, the previous entry level Mac Pro used dual 2.8GHz Harpertown E5462 which cost $797 each (http://ark.intel.com/cpu.aspx?groupID=33084&code=e5462). Since Intel has each price point representing a performance class, Apple is choosing significantly lower-end CPUs for the latest Mac Pro, but I can't see them making changes now.

[nuckinfutz]

Quicktime X is playback only so I don't see what it really has to do with RED other than previewing content.

There are already solutions for working with RED's native codec although not as natively as many RED owners want.

[milo]

No Logic update until fall? Horribly lame, but completely believable based on Apple's track record (or lack of it) with that app.

The related question is whether the next version of Soundtrack will still suck to the point of unusability.

[bedifferent]

me also, it is sickening how long Apple is stalling on Blu-Ray.

I want a Mac Pro or Imac 24" that can write and playback blu-ray.

on MBP, i'd take model which just reads blu-ray and burns DVD/CD's

When Circuit City held their going out of business sale, I grabbed an LG rewritable Blu-Ray and plugged it into my 2 x 2.8 Quad Mac Pro using one of the two SATA ports left for optical drives on the logic board. I've used it in Leopard to back up data, but booting into Vista to watch Blu-Ray (if ever) is a bit of a downer. I know Apple wants to push wireless media with iTunes and as such is refusing to even acknowledge Blu-Ray (yet they're on the Blu-Ray board), however at this point conceding that both formats are worthy of use would seem logical. Oh well. Priorities, priorities, there's a war in Darfur, it could be worse.

[cg0def]

Total BS. Those are not rumors but guesses based on some presumably accurate date on previous releases. Cut the crap, Snow Leopard will be announced and demoed on WWDC and this is exactly the reason why Jobs is coming back. Xserve will most likely get an update too but as far as the rest of the updates go those are wishful thinking. There will be no Nahlem for notebooks this year and no Mac Pro updates either ( especially when the Mac Pro just got updated ).

There will be a new iPod though and hopefully with a better camera this time.

[JoeDMD]

This is great.

If they bump the quad core from 2.66 to 3.2, then it wouldn't be a total rip off.

[fleshman03]

When Circuit City held their going out of business sale, I grabbed an LG rewritable Blu-Ray and plugged it into my 2 x 2.8 Quad Mac Pro using one of the two SATA ports left for optical drives on the logic board. I've used it in Leopard to back up data, but booting into Vista to watch Blu-Ray (if ever) is a bit of a downer. I know Apple wants to push wireless media with iTunes and as such is refusing to even acknowledge Blu-Ray (yet they're on the Blu-Ray board), however at this point conceding that both formats are worthy of use would seem logical..

I agree with that. The potential for mass media storage is great. I'm not too thrilled with the media for video watching though. Once they are the same price as DVDs, then we'll talk. Backup and storage are a whole other thing...

[P-Worm]

Shake was discontinued, to begin with. That's enough to assume that everything else are fake rumors.

That's the first thing I thought of. The only thing this could be reference to is the much rumored Apple Phenomenon, but that has seen so little light that I consider it vaporware.

P-Worm

[iMacmatician]

I think the Quadro FX 5800 is very likely since the Mac Pro is missing a high-end GPU option. The 512MB HD4870 is a mid-range card with a MSRP of $150 so it should have replaced the HD2600XT not the 8800GT. Personally, I'm hoping that Apple adds the upcoming 1GB HD4890 alongside the Quadro FX 5800 since the HD4890 is a true high-end GPU.

The delay with the Quadro FX 5800 probably isn't engineering resources on Apple's part but more availability of the 55nm GT200b chips since I'm guessing nVidia is concentrating them on the desktop market to beat back ATI's HD48xx series.

In regards the 3.2GHz model, if it's introduced it'll have to be as an option on top rather than directly replacing a previous model since Intel has no near-term Xeon price drops planned. People shouldn't have much reason to complain since there would be no changes to existing configurations.


Heat shouldn't be a big issue. The 3.2GHz Harpertowns used in the previous Mac Pros had 150W TDPs for 300W total. Dual 3.2GHz Nehalems with 2x130W TDPs would still have breathing room.

Personally, I'm still disappointed with Apple's overall CPU choices for the Mac Pro. The entry level Nehalem Mac Pro uses a 130W TDP 2.66GHz W5320 which costs $284 (http://ark.intel.com/cpu.aspx?groupID=39718&code=W3520). In contrast, the previous entry level Mac Pro used dual 2.8GHz Harpertown E5462 which cost $797 each (http://ark.intel.com/cpu.aspx?groupID=33084&code=e5462). Since Intel has each price point representing a performance class, Apple is choosing significantly lower-end CPUs for the latest Mac Pro, but I can't see them making changes now.Agreed on all points.

[kramden88]

i was hoping to buy a new mac before the fall semester starts. i believe there's a discount for upgrading the os shortly after buying a new computer, can anyone enlighten me on it? thanks!

[commander.data]

There will be no Nahlem for notebooks this year and no Mac Pro updates either ( especially when the Mac Pro just got updated ).
I don't see why either is out of the question.

Clarksfield is out in Q3 and will have models that have 45W TDP which will fit in the MacBook Pro since thats about the same TDP as current 35W TDP CPUs + ~10W northbridge. It's not like the processors aren't available. And the MacBook Pro would be due for a refresh by November anyways.

For the Mac Pro, the 3.2GHz W5580 wouldn't be added to replaced existing configurations since Intel has announced any price drops. If it's added, it'll instead by an additional more expensive option and won't change existing configurations to avoid complaints. I'm pretty sure this exact same thing happened with Cloverton which was added as an option alongside existing Woodcrest CPUs instead of replacing them.

One thing that I would like see updated is the Apple TV. It's hardware is more than 2 years old now. I'm sure nVidia is itching to get Apple to publicize their Ion platform, since dual core Atom + 9400M for h.264 decode would be perfect for the Apple TV.

[nuckinfutz]

That's the first thing I thought of. The only thing this could be reference to is the much rumored Apple Phenomenon, but that has seen so little light that I consider it vaporware.

P-Worm

Yup I'm thinking Phenomenon is V-A-P-O-R

Apple hasn't shown me that they can develop a Shake class application from the ground.

[t0mat0]

Since Clarksfield is 45/55 W (35/45 W in Penryn terms), only the low-end Clarksfield(s) are likely to be able to fit in the MacBook Pro unless cooling has been improved. Since the MacBook uses 25 W CPUs, who knows if they'll be able to support Clarksfield. MacBook Air…nope.

Also, Clarksfield is to be as high-end as the current 2.0/2.27/2.53 GHz quad-cores (which are $348 to $1038), so I doubt they'll be used in the MacBooks (which use $241 and cheaper CPUs).

But if Apple gets Arrandale early (Intel said production in Q4 I think), then we could see Clarksfield/Arrandale notebooks in November, although I don't think that's likely.

Agreed. Unless they get updated in the next few months with the Penryn updates.

What's happening with Clarksfield release date - is Arrandale going to slide? Presuming it's too hot for a laptop, will Intel get Apple Arrandale by November?
Could Intel pull a 35W Clarksfield out of the hat for the next MacBook Pro?

[iMacmatician]

Clarksfield is out in Q3 and will have models that have 45W TDP which will fit in the MacBook Pro since thats about the same TDP as current 35W TDP CPUs + ~10W northbridge. It's not like the processors aren't available. And the MacBook Pro would be due for a refresh by November anyways.I hope that's what they'll do, even if quad-core is only an option, but I'm also considering the view that the whole line, MacBooks and iMacs, will go Arrandale next year.

Could Intel pull a 35W Clarksfield out of the hat for the next MacBook Pro?45 W Clarksfield is 35 W in Penryn terms. So it would fit in the MacBook Pro. The most concrete info I've seen about Clarksfield says the low-end model (successor to 2.0 GHz Penryn quad) is 45 W while the other two (successors to 2.27/2.53 GHz) are 55 W.

[commander.data]

What's happening with Clarksfield release date - is Arrandale going to slide? Presuming it's too hot for a laptop, will Intel get Apple Arrandale by November?
Could Intel pull a 35W Clarksfield out of the hat for the next MacBook Pro?
Clarksfield's release date is unchanged as H2 2009 leaning more heavily toward Q3. Arrandale's release date is also unchanged at H1 2010, leaning towards Q1.

Apple doesn't need a 35W TDP Clarksfield for the MacBook Pro. They just need high clock speed 45W TDP Clarksfield. Clarksfield is a quad-core chip with the northbridge chipset integrated and so the 45W TDP includes both parts. Current MacBook Pros use 35W TDP CPUs and the 9400M has a 12W TDP so 47W. Going to 45W TDP Clarksfield will actually be cooler. Going to 55W TDP Clarksfield from the current 47W TDP may not be much of a stretch for the 17" MBP at least, especially if the southbridge is more power efficient and the GPU is choosen carefully. It's also important to note that Nehalem has better power control logic than Penryn, so even if TDP is higher, average usage should still see lower heat and longer battery life.

And on the IGP issue, it's painfully obvious that Apple's alliance with nVidia IGPs is short lived. With the northbridge already integrated in the CPU, there is no need for a separate northbridge with a IGP as is the case now. Clarksfield also doesn't come with an Intel IGP. Clarksfield and Arrandale also don't have QPI links and only have DMI links that are low-bandwidth and only suitable for connecting a southbridge. The good thing is that this should force Apple to include discrete GPUs.

[angemon89]

Nehalem, Snow Leopard & 15" Matte MacBook Pro. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4)

[BlizzardBomb]

I think the Quadro FX 5800 is very likely since the Mac Pro is missing a high-end GPU option. The 512MB HD4870 is a mid-range card with a MSRP of $150 so it should have replaced the HD2600XT not the 8800GT. Personally, I'm hoping that Apple adds the upcoming 1GB HD4890 alongside the Quadro FX 5800 since the HD4890 is a true high-end GPU.

In regards the 3.2GHz model, if it's introduced it'll have to be as an option on top rather than directly replacing a previous model since Intel has no near-term Xeon price drops planned. People shouldn't have much reason to complain since there would be no changes to existing configurations.


Heat shouldn't be a big issue. The 3.2GHz Harpertowns used in the previous Mac Pros had 150W TDPs for 300W total. Dual 3.2GHz Nehalems with 2x130W TDPs would still have breathing room.

Personally, I'm still disappointed with Apple's overall CPU choices for the Mac Pro. The entry level Nehalem Mac Pro uses a 130W TDP 2.66GHz W5320 which costs $284 (http://ark.intel.com/cpu.aspx?groupID=39718&code=W3520). In contrast, the previous entry level Mac Pro used dual 2.8GHz Harpertown E5462 which cost $797 each (http://ark.intel.com/cpu.aspx?groupID=33084&code=e5462). Since Intel has each price point representing a performance class, Apple is choosing significantly lower-end CPUs for the latest Mac Pro, but I can't see them making changes now.

Agreed on all points, but maybe an HD 4890 is being a bit too optimistic (although it would be awesome). Apple's never really been at the cutting edge for graphics cards and they probably won't make an exception.

I'm assuming the Nehalem chips Apple will use for their notebook will be dual-core (4 threads, i.e. virtual quad core). I hope Apple gets rid of the useless two graphics cards design and just have one strong graphics card which can downclock to save energy in the MBP.

I also hope the iMac comes down in price again and they offer better graphics cards all round in preparation for Snowy (HD 4770 please) :).

[realfx]

That's the first thing I thought of. The only thing this could be reference to is the much rumored Apple Phenomenon, but that has seen so little light that I consider it vaporware.

P-Worm

Yeah, strange about the Shake update. Shake is dead!

Maybe thre just putting it in there because it still listed as a Apple Pro App. There was a 4.1.1 update a month ago or so.

Werid

[fleshman03]

Nehalem, Snow Leopard & 15" Matte MacBook Pro. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4)

Very informative link!

Hey - what are the the icons under the user name? Are they new or am I just losing my mind?

[milo]

Yup I'm thinking Phenomenon is V-A-P-O-R

Apple hasn't shown me that they can develop a Shake class application from the ground.

Hell, Apple hasn't even shown that they can buy a decent app and even keep it up to the same standard - see Logic.

[DaBrain]

Nehalem, Snow Leopard & 15" Matte MacBook Pro. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4)

Is that video a reflection of your last date? :rolleyes:

[nuckinfutz]

Hell, Apple hasn't even shown that they can buy a decent app and even keep it up to the same standard - see Logic.

Jury is still out deliberating on Logic. Though let me not mince words here. Logic, prior to Apple ownership and UI reworking, was a mess. Once the learning curve was done I'm sure it was ok but for new users it was anything but "Logic" in design. Good news is, now that the UI is done I expect more rapid development of Logic.

[elppa]

It was the matte 15" MacBook Pro that got me.

Good effort.

[twoodcc]

i don't know, that's a lot of stuff in there for one rumor. i sure hope snow leopard gets here before that though

[~Shard~]

Hey - what are the the icons under the user name? Are they new or am I just loosing my mind?

Whether you are loosening or tightening your mind is your business, but if you mouse over the icons I think you'll understand why these icons appeared today... :p ;)

[Henri Gaudier]

.... just reduce the ********** prices in Europe!!!!:mad:

[fleshman03]

Whether you are loosening or tightening your mind is your business, but if you mouse over the icons I think you'll understand why these icons appeared today... :p ;)

Fixed... Funny though...

It says "rule A" "rule j) that kind of thing....

[Bye Bye Baby]

So long as they get it right.

[~Shard~]

Fixed... Funny though...

It says "rule A" "rule j) that kind of thing....

The "j)" is actually a "P", so now keep going, you've almost got it... :p :D

[fleshman03]

The "j)" is actually a "P", so now keep going, you've almost got it... :p :D

lol! Someone PMed me the answer. I don't really want to say it in case someone else is as gullible as me... Very cool though.

[SHOlover]

In the bank, you'll earn a massive 1% interest. If you're lucky.

and....Itsgone.

[Xibalba]

Bumping to Nehalem? That's going to make a few people angry.

not really, my macbook will still perform great even when new versions come out...plus anyone can simply sell and "upgrade" for a minimal cost difference if they have to be on the front lines of new technology.

hearing about the news now may make some people upset but november is still 7 months away...

[Umbongo]

I think the Quadro FX 5800 is very likely since the Mac Pro is missing a high-end GPU option. The 512MB HD4870 is a mid-range card with a MSRP of $150 so it should have replaced the HD2600XT not the 8800GT. Personally, I'm hoping that Apple adds the upcoming 1GB HD4890 alongside the Quadro FX 5800 since the HD4890 is a true high-end GPU.

You may feel the 4870 is a midrange card but it is not. It is at the low end of AMD's highest consumer tier and the basis of their high end pro cards. As for replacing the 2600XT, price isn't as relevent as it being noisey and you couldn't fit 4 in a Mac Pro.

The delay with the Quadro FX 5800 probably isn't engineering resources on Apple's part but more availability of the 55nm GT200b chips since I'm guessing nVidia is concentrating them on the desktop market to beat back ATI's HD48xx series.

The FX 5800 uses the older chip found in the GTX 280 and I can't see them forgoing selling a $3000 card to Apple for the AMD battle.

The following is based on what I have read and been told:
Apple develop the drivers themselves for Nvidia cards and driver development for the previous Quadros probably wasn't too hard or much of an issue as they also were selling GeForce cards that were based on the same hardware. This time they don't have a GeForce card to share that development with, so they would be developing drivers soley for the Quadro. I can easily see it just not being worth them doing it due to sales volume. I don't know how much effort is needed for such things, but I assume it isn't trivial given Apple's very limited set of cards.

In regards the 3.2GHz model, if it's introduced it'll have to be as an option on top rather than directly replacing a previous model since Intel has no near-term Xeon price drops planned. People shouldn't have much reason to complain since there would be no changes to existing configurations.

Agreed, I'm certainly not going to be suprised if they turn up from Apple.

[Anonymous Freak]

That too, although I'm not so sure about the specs that came along with the mockup.

Yeah, as I commented in the mockup/rumor thread, I would rather see it with an "Ultra Low Voltage" (up to 1.86 GHz, at 17 Watts,) Core 2 Duo. I would also like to see "Certified Wireless USB" (the official spec,) on it, too; to make up for the single USB port.

[Xibalba]

One thing that I would like see updated is the Apple TV. It's hardware is more than 2 years old now. I'm sure nVidia is itching to get Apple to publicize their Ion platform, since dual core Atom + 9400M for h.264 decode would be perfect for the Apple TV.

I completely agree - I just bought an aTV a few months ago and love the device. Boxee and XBMC work awesome and give me instant access (wirelessly) to my entire media collection. Also, my wife loves watching trailers to wind down at night - and several of the $0.99 movie rentals have been great as well.

[jgbhardy]

I'm probably not looking into buying another mac until September 2010, so hopefully by then SL will have sorted the release bugs, but I'm greatly excited by the prospect of a new OS that will have improvements under the hood.

I forget is the Nehalem a Quad core mobile processor? With SL taking more advantage of multi core CPUs are we too expect the system to possible take advantage of this by organising programs into using core's that are not active to increase the power?

[Mr. Giver '94]

Just watch. Snow Leopard will become the new Push Notification service. :p:D

Snow Leopard=Slow Leopard

[Bye Bye Baby]

It looks like november for my new macbook pro.

Bring it on.

[Scottsdale]

Since it is April Fools Day, I seriously doubt anything written at all today.

Most of this seems more like speculation than anything.

[iMacmatician]

I forget is the Nehalem a Quad core mobile processor? Nehalem is the microarchitecture.

Nehalem has two mobile variants: Clarksfield and Arrandale. Clarksfield is the higher-end, quad-core variant and Arrandale is the lower-end, dual-core variant.

Technically Arrandale is a Westmere variant, as Westmere is the 32 nm shrink of Nehalem.

[thejadedmonkey]

Agreed. This release, more than ever, must have the mantra "better late than broken" (assuming it's not insanely late, of course.)

When you're releasing a version that has no major externally-visible features, then it had better be rock-solid. Otherwise, the press and the bloggers (and a lot of other people) will start writing "all this did was make perfectly good systems start breaking." The presence of an all-new internal architecture won't matter one whit to non-developers.

That'll never be more true then this fall when Microsoft releases Windows 7, which looks like a re-write of Vista, and it SCREAMS. With comparison like that, if OS X 10.6 isn't a screamer as well, the bloggers will be up in arms.

[Jacksteruk309]

It will be interesting to see how they fit a Nehalem into the Macbooks. I'm guessing they'll be waiting until the 32nm shrink comes out, but will Intel be able to get the TDP down to the 25W in the current Macbook's P8600? If they can't then I'm wondering where they'll make the power saving, perhaps they'll have to go back to Intel graphics? Or maybe they'll have to up the capacity of the battery, which would result in a heavier Macbook.

[ThomasJL]

By November the unibodies would've been out a full year, I think that's sufficient time for an update... Anybody that does complain is just doing so for the sake of it.

And just like many recent Macs which were out for over a year with no revision, Apple will not lower the price what they charged when the machines were first released.

[nxfxcom]

I seriously hope that they will get a HighEnd Video Card soon, i am still running the last Generation Mac Pro with a 8800, and if they come out with some better cards i would seriously thinking about getting the new one with the new card! CANT WAIT

[miggitymac]

You're tough to impress. :rolleyes:

Well...I didn't find your attempt at dry-wit humorous, so that may be true...:p (that's a joke...plz don't get all snarly...too much of that on this forum lately)

But if SL delivers what ppl are expecting it to deliver...and it has Nehalem to work with...then I'll have enough incentive to retire my early 2008 MBP this November. The unibodies weren't enough for me to do that.

And I don't know many ppl that are pleased with the fact that the NVidia cards in their laptops are EXPECTED to fail eventually...

[Pika]

Was there ever a release date published by Apple? If not, then there's nothing to say that September would be "late". Leopard is running great, so I don't see why they need to rush to supersede it.

Apple is preparing Snow Leopard to compete against Windows 7.

[BTW]

That makes sense that Snow Leopard is coming out in September. I would expect them to give a board beta copy to developers at WWDC. It would be nice if they'd beta to the general public. I'm sure there's some willing consumers.

[acearchie]

So inline with the pro video app updates does anyone reckon we will see a Final cut express 5?

Im eager for some new features!

[nuckinfutz]

September sounds pretty late.

I'm more thinking along the lines of August..not too much of a difference but we'll see.

[commander.data]

You may feel the 4870 is a midrange card but it is not. It is at the low end of AMD's highest consumer tier and the basis of their high end pro cards. As for replacing the 2600XT, price isn't as relevent as it being noisey and you couldn't fit 4 in a Mac Pro.
http://www.dailytech.com/Radeon+4870+Gets+50+Price+Cut+to+149+Radeon+4850+Will+Drop+to+129/article14433.htm

I'm pretty sure the $150 price point is decidedly mainstream and the 512MB HD4870 dropped to that segment before Apple introduced it in the Mac Pro. When it was originally introduced around $300, it was definitely a performance segment card, with the HD4850 at $200 as the high-end mid-range option. Market segment classification isn't a matter for speed but price. The HD4870 may form the basis of high-end cards, but I don't think a $150 graphics card can be considered an entry high-end graphics card even if it's performance punches above it's price point and it's named like a high-end card.

To justify their small die strategy in the HD4xxx generation, AMD has stated that they view the market in 5 segments: Enthusiast, Performance, Balance, Mainstream, and Value. They didn't break down all the specific price points, but they did say that the Performance segment is $200-$300, which is why the HD4870 was originally launched at $299, and they were giving up making single die GPUs for the $300+ Enthusiast market. The HD4850 was originally priced at $199 which is the Balance segment. The $100-$149 is then likely the Mainstream segment, and sub-$100 is the value segment. By pricing the 512MB HD4870 at $149 it's now a Mainstream part, the second lowest tier.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3469&p=6

Let NVIDIA take the crown, let them have the halo part, we’ll compete in the $200 - $300 market. Yeah, right.

What followed were heated debates, if ATI were to stake the future of its graphics business on not building the absolute faster GPU, but rather a GPU targeted at a lower market segment the proposition was risky.

ATI viewed the graphics market as five segments: Enthusiast, Performance, Balance, Mainstream and Value. In the Spring of 2005, ATI decided to shoot for the Performance segment, and not Enthusiast.
And so the best GPU currently available for the Mac Pro is a mainstream GPU which is disappointing. The GT120 is a value GPU, and the I believe the 8800GT in the last Mac Pro was a Performance segment GPU when the Harpertown Mac Pro was released which was decent. A 1GB HD4890 or GTX285 option would definitely be useful.

[Shiner]

I imagine that the 3.2Ghz will be even more expensive, and won't push the 2.26 out of the lineup to reshuffle the price mix.

2.26: $3299
2.66: + $1400
2.93: + $2600
3.20: + $3200?

That 4GB Nvidia card is a beast! But my understanding is that is more useful for crunching numbers, and not as much for gaming.

Funny you should mention that, It sucks for gaming!! LOL. I bought one for work -3D imaging X-ray structures and molecular dynamics. Loaded WOW on there the other night man did it suck!!

[mdriftmeyer]

FYI: Internel Dev builds of OS X are always dozens of revisions ahead. It's been that way when we did it at NeXT and Apple while I tested them.

[tumblemonster]

I doubt we'll see Shake updates. Apple dropped Shake 2 years ago to work on a replacement called Phenomenon, based partly on shake and partly on new development from Motion, but it hasn't been heard of since. I'd love to see a new pro level compositing product from Apple, but it probably won't be called Shake.

[iMacmatician]

It will be interesting to see how they fit a Nehalem into the Macbooks. I'm guessing they'll be waiting until the 32nm shrink comes out, but will Intel be able to get the TDP down to the 25W in the current Macbook's P8600? If they can't then I'm wondering where they'll make the power saving, perhaps they'll have to go back to Intel graphics? Or maybe they'll have to up the capacity of the battery, which would result in a heavier Macbook.Subtract 10 W from the listed Nehalem TDP and you get the Penryn TDP equivalent. So Arrandale (35/45 W) can fit into the MacBook.

[Riemann Zeta]

I think we all knew that we wouldn't see 10.6 until Sept/Oct--I have been thinking Oct 2009 since last summer. One look at the current builds and it is clearly apparent that 10.6 is in no way close to being ready for release. Besides, what company wants to release an important major OS update right at the inflection-point of a recession? Instead, why not spend more time debugging the OS while waiting a few months until money starts to move again. We will get to see the beta release in Jun, however--I know Apple is extremely paranoid about showing anything related to a new OS (which is a very dumb strategy if debugging is the theoretical goal), but this one will leak to the intertubes quickly after annoncement at the show.

[Umbongo]

http://www.dailytech.com/Radeon+4870+Gets+50+Price+Cut+to+149+Radeon+4850+Will+Drop+to+129/article14433.htm

I'm pretty sure the $150 price point is decidedly mainstream and the 512MB HD4870 dropped to that segment before Apple introduced it in the Mac Pro. When it was originally introduced around $300, it was definitely a performance segment card, with the HD4850 at $200 as the high-end mid-range option. Market segment classification isn't a matter for speed but price. The HD4870 may form the basis of high-end cards, but I don't think a $150 graphics card can be considered an entry high-end graphics card even if it's performance punches above it's price point and it's named like a high-end card.

To justify their small die strategy in the HD4xxx generation, AMD has stated that they view the market in 5 segments: Enthusiast, Performance, Balance, Mainstream, and Value. They didn't break down all the specific price points, but they did say that the Performance segment is $200-$300, which is why the HD4870 was originally launched at $299, and they were giving up making single die GPUs for the $300+ Enthusiast market. The HD4850 was originally priced at $199 which is the Balance segment. The $100-$149 is then likely the Mainstream segment, and sub-$100 is the value segment. By pricing the 512MB HD4870 at $149 it's now a Mainstream part, the second lowest tier.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3469&p=6


And so the best GPU currently available for the Mac Pro is a mainstream GPU which is disappointing. The GT120 is a value GPU, and the I believe the 8800GT in the last Mac Pro was a Performance segment GPU when the Harpertown Mac Pro was released which was decent. A 1GB HD4890 or GTX285 option would definitely be useful.

We will have to agree to disagree on the 4870. I consider it a $150 part now, but they aren't selling for that and whatever the price it wasn't going to replace the 2600XT for reasons I mentioned.

I completely agree the GPU options are poor. I was dissapointed they didn't go for the 4670 as the base option and the GTX 260 Core 216 as the improved option and even those aren't amazing. For whatever reasons Apple only offer a low power card that can be used in fours to power 8 displays and a more powerful card for those using heavier 3D applications and probably due to the small audience that seems to mean the best value card in the high consumer tier. Which the 4870 is surely a contender for. In the end it was probably a case of AMD giving Apple the best deal and Apple being happy that the 4870 was enough of a card.

Maybe AMD will come out with some 3rd party cards, but it's such a niche market they would be catering too. Or maybe things will change in the future as Nvidia rebrand and AMD drop prices rather than new evolutions replacing everything.

[nuckinfutz]

I think we all knew that we wouldn't see 10.6 until Sept/Oct--I have been thinking Oct 2009 since last summer. One look at the current builds and it is clearly apparent that 10.6 is in no way close to being ready for release. Besides, what company wants to release an important major OS update right at the inflection-point of a recession? Instead, why not spend more time debugging the OS while waiting a few months until money starts to move again. We will get to see the beta release in Jun, however--I know Apple is extremely paranoid about showing anything related to a new OS (which is a very dumb strategy if debugging is the theoretical goal), but this one will leak to the intertubes quickly after annoncement at the show.

People said the same thing about Leopard and then it quickly went final candidate and then gold master.

and as mdriftmeyer says above Apple's internal builds are ahead of what's available to ADC members. Now Snow Leopard could indeed ship in October but there's little information as to why it would be delayed so late.

My assumption is that there are key features in OS X that are still hidden and won't be visible to Snow Leopard builds until the iPhone is delivered. Totally baseless assumption but I think that Snow Leopard development jumps into high gear once the team launches iPhone 3rd Rev and finishes the 3.0 SDK

[Analog Kid]

Dear Apple,

Please learn from recent events (Leopard and MobileMe come to mind) and please do not release Snow Leopard until it's fully ready, even if that's September (or even December).

Yes, we want it today but we very much want it to not suck.

Love,

We who are making you tons of money
I don't often do this, but: +1

[InkMaster]

So... no quad core MacBook Pros till Q4 at earliest? Sigh... thats all I want... that and 8 gigs of ram...

[Rocketman]

I am just glad that after the announcement by Steve Jobs several years ago that the IBM Power PC G5 will be 3 ghz, that now sometime by late 2009, we will have an Intel Nahelem 3+ ghz chip.

Better never than late I always say.

Rocketman

[dagomike]

Didn't they bump the 15" unibody macbook pro's speed from 2.8GHz to 2.93GHz right after the new unibody 17" came out?

Yup. It was probably about three months too. I'm really hopping they add the 3.2 GHz soon. I'm looking to buy and I'm willing to pay for it. I really don't think this will be a bump, just a new BTO option. I'm assuming the 3.2 GHz isn't there because they couldn't get the chips and didn't want to backlog a ton of orders for a couple months.

[deconstruct60]

Apple doesn't need a 35W TDP Clarksfield for the MacBook Pro. They just need high clock speed 45W TDP Clarksfield. Clarksfield is a quad-core chip with the northbridge chipset integrated and so the 45W TDP includes both parts. Current MacBook Pros use 35W TDP CPUs and the 9400M has a 12W TDP so 47W. Going to 45W TDP Clarksfield will actually be cooler. Going to 55W TDP Clarksfield from the current 47W TDP may not be much of a stretch for the 17" MBP at least, especially if the southbridge is more power efficient and the GPU is choosen carefully. It's also important to note that Nehalem has better power control logic than Penryn, so even if TDP is higher, average usage should still see lower heat and longer battery life.


You seem to be assuming that all the northbridge did was talk to memory.

If you look at several Northbridge chips they also have duties talking to highbandwidth PCI. From example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Media_Interface has a few links to some Intel Northbridge chips.

The Nehalem era X58 is still a northbridge. It didn't disappear. It has fewer duties but it isn't gone. Primarily, the X4x series also have the PCI-e 8x connectivity in addintion to memory.

Wouldn't putting your graphics on the other side of DMI limit your bandwidth. Granted not going to have multi GPU kinds of data movement but this is same southbridge where all the other I/O is coming from too. Putting EVERYTHING (graphics + graphics memory , disks , etc. ) on the other side of DMI seem to unbalance the system significantly. Doing heavy disk I/O a the same time as heavy graphics going through the same pipe ( a PCI 4x sized one) ? [ Like pull and decode HD video for example. ]

Likewise, the 9400M has a huge chunk dedicated to graphics. Those Watts aren't going to disappear from a system that doesn't have one.

Likewise for AMD ( which has had emedded memory controllers for a even longer time)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_AMD_chipsets

Note the column that outlines the name of the Southbridge. Some of nVidia design might have collaspsed into one ( or they just sell them bundled. )




And on the IGP issue, it's painfully obvious that Apple's alliance with nVidia IGPs is short lived.


Does Nvidia have ability to do DMI ( or just the CPU/Northbridge one)? I thought it is the QPI interface that they are suing on?



With the northbridge already integrated in the CPU


The memory controllers are integrated in the CPU; not the Northbridge.


, there is no need for a separate northbridge with a IGP as is the case now. Clarksfield also doesn't come with an Intel IGP. Clarksfield and Arrandale also don't have QPI links and only have DMI links that are low-bandwidth and only suitable for connecting a southbridge. The good thing is that this should force Apple to include discrete GPUs.

Discrete GPUs hooked to what? If there is only a Southbridge left you'd have to hook the those to the Southbridge. So some discrete GPU that gets some fraction of a PCI-e 4x worth of bandwidth.

[queshy]

Ah, snow leopard seems like such a distant thought...Apple is good at delaying things haha. I'll be surprised - very surprised if it comes as early as september.

[deconstruct60]

My assumption is that there are key features in OS X that are still hidden and won't be visible to Snow Leopard builds until the iPhone is delivered. Totally baseless assumption but I think that Snow Leopard development jumps into high gear once the team launches iPhone 3rd Rev and finishes the 3.0 SDK

Or maybe even nothing hidden. (of course there is something glitzy hidden so can get oohs and aahs at WWDC's demo). It isn't like Mac OS X hasn't been delayed before due to additional resources needed to get iPhone OS out the door.

October seems reasonable if want to actually get lots of developer feedback about their applications before going out the door. Folks with lots of extra resources can spare folks to do builds on early OS build, but if want folks to get serious would have to tell them when the OS is mostly complete (no more curve balls coming that might effect their code.)

If freeze in September can go build DVDs and packages. 3 months after WWDC is September. Otherwise if folks find broken stuff at WWDC or shortly after not really going to have much time to ship fixes and get back confirmations (of both the fix and no regressions).... assuming that a few of this initial fixes don't work and have iterate some.

Redoing Quicktime is a crossplatform situation also. Probably need to get Quicktime X working on Windows 7 too. So can release at same time.
Plus whatever Windows 7 hype blitzkriegh Microsoft puts on.... best not to compete head-on-head with that.

[Apple iKid]

Was planning to buy a MBP this summer... oh well... guess it will have to wait until November now.

[Mac Kiwi]

I guess if they still had "some" of the Shake dev team,maybe they could do a kind of service update.I think then though we know they are working on Phenomenon.

[nuckinfutz]

October seems reasonable if want to actually get lots of developer feedback about their applications before going out the door. Folks with lots of extra resources can spare folks to do builds on early OS build, but if want folks to get serious would have to tell them when the OS is mostly complete (no more curve balls coming that might effect their code.)


Redoing Quicktime is a crossplatform situation also. Probably need to get Quicktime X working on Windows 7 too. So can release at same time.
Plus whatever Windows 7 hype blitzkriegh Microsoft puts on.... best not to compete head-on-head with that.

October is in fact reasonable though I don't think we'll have to wait that long. Apple is moving along nicely with a new ADC 10.6 seed with 64-bit kernel support (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=96941).

Let's see...April May June (WWDC could deliver feature complete SL) then another 2-3 months of polishing sounds about right. I'm guessing that Aug/Sept Golden Master dates are probably correct. If Apple's got the 64-bit kernel ready for testing most of the big bugs should be gone by WWDC.

[t0mat0]

People said the same thing about Leopard and then it quickly went final candidate and then gold master.

and as mdriftmeyer says above Apple's internal builds are ahead of what's available to ADC members. Now Snow Leopard could indeed ship in October but there's little information as to why it would be delayed so late.

My assumption is that there are key features in OS X that are still hidden and won't be visible to Snow Leopard builds until the iPhone is delivered. Totally baseless assumption but I think that Snow Leopard development jumps into high gear once the team launches iPhone 3rd Rev and finishes the 3.0 SDK


The rumored timeline looks feasible, no?
So not feature complete till WWDC/June, but spilling a bit more this month.

[commander.data]

You seem to be assuming that all the northbridge did was talk to memory.

If you look at several Northbridge chips they also have duties talking to highbandwidth PCI. From example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Media_Interface has a few links to some Intel Northbridge chips.

The Nehalem era X58 is still a northbridge. It didn't disappear. It has fewer duties but it isn't gone. Primarily, the X4x series also have the PCI-e 8x connectivity in addintion to memory.

Wouldn't putting your graphics on the other side of DMI limit your bandwidth. Granted not going to have multi GPU kinds of data movement but this is same southbridge where all the other I/O is coming from too. Putting EVERYTHING (graphics + graphics memory , disks , etc. ) on the other side of DMI seem to unbalance the system significantly. Doing heavy disk I/O a the same time as heavy graphics going through the same pipe ( a PCI 4x sized one) ? [ Like pull and decode HD video for example. ]

Likewise, the 9400M has a huge chunk dedicated to graphics. Those Watts aren't going to disappear from a system that doesn't have one.

Likewise for AMD ( which has had emedded memory controllers for a even longer time)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_AMD_chipsets

Note the column that outlines the name of the Southbridge. Some of nVidia design might have collaspsed into one ( or they just sell them bundled. )





Does Nvidia have ability to do DMI ( or just the CPU/Northbridge one)? I thought it is the QPI interface that they are suing on?




The memory controllers are integrated in the CPU; not the Northbridge.



Discrete GPUs hooked to what? If there is only a Southbridge left you'd have to hook the those to the Southbridge. So some discrete GPU that gets some fraction of a PCI-e 4x worth of bandwidth.
I think we have a misunderstanding of what Nehalem chips we are talking about. First for clarity Nehalem is not a chip it's an architecture. Specific chips include Bloomfield, Gainestown, Clarksfield, and Arrandale (which is really a 32nm shrink as part of the Westmere architecture update).

Current Nehalem chips are Bloomfield used in the Core i7 and the Xeon 35xx series (in the single processor Mac Pro) and Gainestown. These both feature QPI links and don't have an integrated northbridge only an integrated memory controller. They require a separate northbridge now called an I/O hub that contains PCIe links.

Mainstream desktop and all mobile chips will come in the form of Clarksfield and Arrandale which actually integrated the whole northbridge. This includes memory controller, PCIe links, and an IGP in the case of Arrandale. Discrete graphics cards can connect directly to Clarksfield and Arrandale through standard PCIe links as always. These chips don't have QPI since the northbride is already onboard. They only have a DMI link which is low-bandwidth and has always been used to connect southbridges.

And now onto the nVidia-Intel licensing issue. My view is that the entire thing is pointless from an implementation perspective.

Mainstream desktop and mobile chips already have the northbridge onboard. I don't see what advantage nVidia's southbridge could have over Intel's southbridge when their feature-sets are pretty much standard anyways. If anything, Intel's southbridge for mobile Nehalem would probably be the first to adopt USB3.0 seeing that Intel lead it's development.

The entire nVidia-Intel Nehalem chipset debate is a non-issue for Apple and Macs. No mobile Nehalem chips will have QPI links or need a northbridge and therefore will not support an nVidia IGP. It doesn't matter whether nVidia wins a license or not, there aren't the QPI links to connect it.

nVidia has never manufactured chipsets for Xeons and seeing that the whole point of Xeons and it's higher prices is tight platform integration for guaranteed stability over performance, there is little advantage with going with nVidia. It's not like the Mac Pro needs an IGP. I doubt nVidia is arguing that their license extends to Nehalem Xeons seeing that it never extended to any previous Xeons to begin with.

The only narrow Nehalem niche for nVidia chipsets is high-end desktop chips which don't have an integrated northbridge and have QPI links. However, Apple has never used Intel desktop chips. And the idea of better integration of GPUs and chipsets for Hybrid Power is now dead on desktops, with nVidia no longer supporting Hybrid Power with the GTX285 and GTX295, while the previous GTX280 had support.

The nVidia-Intel chipset licensing war is largely irrelevent since they are going to end up fighting over making southbridges which is hardly a product differentiator. Instead of focusing on making an IGP chipset with no processor to connect to nVidia and Apple should be focused on powerful, low-cost GPUs which would be better than the IGPs that Intel can come up with anyways.

[powers74]

anyone bring dip?

[deconstruct60]

Nehalem is the microarchitecture.

Nehalem has two mobile variants: Clarksfield and Arrandale. Clarksfield is the higher-end, quad-core variant and Arrandale is the lower-end, dual-core variant.

Technically Arrandale is a Westmere variant, as Westmere is the 32 nm shrink of Nehalem.

If Clarkfield is circa October not so sure this "end of 2009" is really going to hold up ( expect for getting the hardware vendors numerous copies for extensive testing.)

http://www.ubergizmo.com/zoom.php?dir=2009/2/Intel-Westmere/&page=1

Arrandale has fewer cores in part because it nukes 2 cores to move the digital portion of graphics ( and PCIe interface ) onto the die. That somewhat solves the problem of moving the GPU to the other side of a relatively limited DMI interface. However, now need to get the video signal out of the package containing the CPU too. So pulling the graphics apart a bit.

http://www.ubergizmo.com/zoom.php?dir=2009/2/Intel-Westmere/&page=5

So it isn't till the next shrink that get close to the Northbridge really disappearing and that is at the sacrifice of a couple of cores.


Which makes the Clarkfield somewhat of an oddball chip. Presumably "need" 4 cores on your laptop because need high performance, but then choke down the on the I/O pipe. Or they are assuming that mostly reading everything out of memory so most of of the I/O pipe can be used for graphics.

[Apple iKid]

Will waiting another 8 months be worth an upgrade to the Nehalem Processor type?

How much of a difference do you think it will make in the notebooks?

[commander.data]

So it isn't till the next shrink that get close to the Northbridge really disappearing and that is at the sacrifice of a couple of cores.

Which makes the Clarkfield somewhat of an oddball chip. Presumably "need" 4 cores on your laptop because need high performance, but then choke down the on the I/O pipe. Or they are assuming that mostly reading everything out of memory so most of of the I/O pipe can be used for graphics.
http://images.brighthub.com/B2/4/B2437A8CCD3F0A2194EB3D5ED8D618955F892A4F_large.jpg

Maybe this will make things more clear for you. Clarksdale is 4-cores and integrates the whole northbridge. Memory and PCIe graphics will connect directly to Clarksdale. There is only a DMI link for the southbridge.

[Pooshka]

Snow Leopard is very likely to be released around the same day Leopard was, i.e., end of October. Personally, I'd be infinitely happy if it made it before the end of the year. :rolleyes:

[h'biki]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/04/01/snow-leopard-in-september-xserve-in-june-mac-pro-speed-boost-and-more/)

HardMac posted (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2009/04/01/instead-of-april-fool-jokes-we-offer-you-some-rumours) a collection of rumors they've received. They don't seem particularly confident about the information but do provides some believable tidbits:

[snip]

- Final Cut Studio 3, DVD Studio Pro, Shake, Logic updates.


Shake was EOL'ed many years ago. Its Captain Awesome, Ron Brinkmann, left for the Foundry where he worked on Nuke. Nuke is orders of magnitude superior to Shake (except for the paint tools & the price).

They COULD be talking about Phenomenon - the rumoured Shake successor - but that project seems so unlikely to me.

Predicting the other updates its a bit of a truism. They're due for updates.

Final Cut Pro is ALREADY compatible with the RED cameras - unless they're specifically talking about Scarlet and Epic, but even that seems 'well, duh' as they'd be based on the same redcode codec.

End broadcast.

[topgun072003]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post
In the bank, you'll earn a massive 1% interest. If you're lucky.

and....Itsgone.

Hilarious! :D

[deconstruct60]

...

Mainstream desktop and all mobile chips will come in the form of Clarksfield and Arrandale which actually integrated the whole northbridge. This includes memory controller, PCIe links, and an IGP in the case of Arrandale.


Intel does some funky things with Mutli chip modules ( e.g., throw to dual cores out there as a quad core ). That smells much more of Northbridge + die in a MCM where you just can't externally see the QPI between the Northbrdige/IOHub and "CPU" than they actually integrated. [edit: this seems to support that. http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/926/1050926/intel-talks-32nm-westmere ]

I didn't see the earlier parts about having an "on board" PCIe that makes the Clarksfield not look so oddball. I saw intel slides on the Westmere stuff.
However, finally tracked this one down.
http://en.expreview.com/2008/07/16/intel-roadmap-indicates-multiple-havendale-incoming-q309.html

Still you are only getting a very limited subset of PCI lanes. ( what if you need a fast Ethernet / RAID / etc. card or something. ) Either DMI has more pep or these will be limited to machines where folks don't push them very hard. Laptops that's OK but this is also the desktop.

The Core5 chips still have PCIe slots... the report mentions Kings Creek having 2 PCI 8x http://www.dailytech.com/Intel+Targets+BacktoSchool+Season+With+Core+i5+New+Chipsets/article14228.htm

So if the Northbridge is on the CPU package why are there more on this P5x chip? perhaps there is just one PCI 8x slot just for graphics? I can see 8 wire/pins for a slot. What not so sure about is how get 2-3 8x slots coming out along with the rest.


Doesn't make much sense to have those on the other side of DMI (if it is bascially a 4x-ish )




Discrete graphics cards can connect directly to Clarksfield and Arrandale through standard PCIe links as always. These chips don't have QPI since the northbride is already onboard. They only have a DMI link which is low-bandwidth and has always been used to connect southbridges.






And now onto the nVidia-Intel licensing issue. My view is that the entire thing is pointless from an implementation perspective.
....
nVidia has never manufactured chipsets for Xeons and seeing that the whole point of Xeons and it's higher prices is tight platform integration for guaranteed stability over performance,
[/QUOTE]

But to some sense Intel was standardizing on QPI for a situation similar to what AMD did with HyperTransport.

Not too surprising that Intel would flip the game to a MCM approach to squeeze both AMD/ATI and nVidea more completely out of the integrated graphics space. They've gotten their butts kicked so far in that space when it comes to performance so just eliminate the competition. Then they won't look as bad. :)



The only narrow Nehalem niche for nVidia chipsets is high-end desktop chips which don't have an integrated northbridge and have QPI links.
...
The nVidia-Intel chipset licensing war is largely irrelevent since they are going to end up fighting over making southbridges which is hardly a product differentiator..

Not so sure the "southbridges" are going to be so low performing unless the multislot PCIe boxes disappears. ( the desktops all move to iMac style kinds of expansion. )


low-cost GPUs which would be better than the IGPs that Intel can come up with anyways.


What is perverse is that if Intel goes to a model where they put a IGP on every single option you can choose, even if nVidia does come up with a better solution Intel still gets paid for the IGP that you aren't going to use.
Just gives them more money to keep shooting at Intel.

Hope that OpenCL allows the GPUs to compete with Intels CPU as far as where folks put their additional money for "more power". Otherwise very long term going to end up with a Duopoly. Or perhaps folks just move off to a newer platform where there is more competition.

If I was nVidia I'd try to repair the AMD relationship rather than try from keeping Intel from slamming the door shut in their face. HT (or the equivalent) to the their classic kinds of Northbridge / Southbridge set up is much more open to competition and gets you better classic desktops. ( for the all-in-one market the intel will probably work better longrun... if AMD gets back in the game. )

[deconstruct60]

http://images.brighthub.com/B2/4/B2437A8CCD3F0A2194EB3D5ED8D618955F892A4F_large.jpg

Maybe this will make things more clear for you. Clarksdale is 4-cores and integrates the whole northbridge. Memory and PCIe graphics will connect directly to Clarksdale. There is only a DMI link for the southbridge.

The entire Northbridge is 2 slots?

This one has up to 4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:X58_Block_Diagram.png


As commented in another reply ... perhaps all mainstream PCs are heading to the iMac and/or 10 lb laptop model. But wonder where all the "I need an expandable minitower" folks are going to go then. :)

edit: More think about this looks like they are farming NB functionality partially to the CPU package and partially to the SB package. The chip package count is going down, but the actual entities as chip dies not so much.

[TheScavenger]

Mobile Nehalem!

Will Apple get early access to the mobile Nehalem chips much like they did with the Nehalem Xeons? :apple:

Just dreaming...

[deconstruct60]

Mobile Nehalem!

Will Apple get early access to the mobile Nehalem chips much like they did with the Nehalem Xeons? :apple:

Just dreaming...

Not likely. Read somewhat ( can't remember) that Apple got Xeons for Mac Pros early because the volume of expected Mac Pros sold is so low they could keep up with Apple's initial demands with pre-full scale production abilities.

Apple sells laptops in much higher volumes. Maybe if the 17" went early, but since it came out last in the last update round that doesn't seem likely since it is least due for a refresh.

[commander.data]

Still you are only getting a very limited subset of PCI lanes. ( what if you need a fast Ethernet / RAID / etc. card or something. ) Either DMI has more pep or these will be limited to machines where folks don't push them very hard. Laptops that's OK but this is also the desktop.

The Core5 chips still have PCIe slots... the report mentions Kings Creek having 2 PCI 8x http://www.dailytech.com/Intel+Targets+BacktoSchool+Season+With+Core+i5+New+Chipsets/article14228.htm

So if the Northbridge is on the CPU package why are there more on this P5x chip? perhaps there is just one PCI 8x slot just for graphics? I can see 8 wire/pins for a slot. What not so sure about is how get 2-3 8x slots coming out along with the rest.
The entire Northbridge is 2 slots?

This one has up to 4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:X58_Block_Diagram.png


As commented in another reply ... perhaps all mainstream PCs are heading to the iMac and/or 10 lb laptop model. But wonder where all the "I need an expandable minitower" folks are going to go then. :)

edit: More think about this looks like they are farming NB functionality partially to the CPU package and partially to the SB package. The chip package count is going down, but the actual entities as chip dies not so much.
You are making still far more complicated than it is, probably because you aren't clear what the capabilities of the traditional northbridge and southbridge are.

Even in Pre-Nehalem chipsets, not all PCIe lanes come from the Northbridge. The PCIe links from the northbridge are traditionally for graphics cards, ie. high-bandwidth applications. And links don't necessarily equate to slots. Most northbridges have 16 links so that motherboard makers can make 1 PCIe x16 slot or 2 PCIe x8 slots. High-end northbridges have 32 links that can be implemented as 2 PCIe x16 slots or 4 PCIe x8 slots.

This is functionality will be replicated in Nehalem chips. Specifically Bloomfield and Gainestown are high-end chips and so they have external northbridges with at least 32 links just like previous high-end chipsets. Clarksfield and Arrandale which are mainstream processors will have integrated northbridges with 16 links, just as was common before.

Additional PCIe links for expansion cards like a sound card have always been provided by the southbridge connected through DMI. This doesn't change with Nehalem.

With Nehalem, you aren't losing I/O bandwidth or functionality in # of slots. Performance-wise you are gaining from reduced latency. The only thing you are losing is some flexibility since you can't really select your northbridge anymore. But realistically, mainstream Nehalems are already coupled with a mainstream chipset, so it's only the people who buy a high-end chipset with a mainstream CPU looking to upgrade the CPU later that are disadvantaged, which I guess Intel figures isn't the majority.

What is perverse is that if Intel goes to a model where they put a IGP on every single option you can choose, even if nVidia does come up with a better solution Intel still gets paid for the IGP that you aren't going to use.
Just gives them more money to keep shooting at Intel.
In regards to being forced to pay for Intel IGPs, the IGP will only be included in Arrandale which is a dual core part and would be pretty low-end by the time it's released in 2010. In that segment, IGP usage would be common anyways so for most people it isn't a big deal. And for people that don't, Intel's IGPs do support GPU switching with discrete nVidia and ATI GPUs, in notebooks at least, so you do get the functionality of using the IGP to save power and switching to a discrete for more performance. So it isn't completely useless. An Intel was part of the working group that ratified OpenCL and they have pledged to support it in products sooner or later. If the IGP in Arrandale does support OpenCL, you could use it as a processing target while your discrete GPU focuses on graphics related stuff or vice-versa.

[Pika]

This rumor is an april fool !

[michael.lauden]

dude finally. Snow Leopard!!!

[AidenShaw]

This rumor is an april fool !

No, an "April Fool" would be "Snow Leopard to be released at WWDC".

After the MWSF'09 keynote ended and there was no 10.6 demo in the keynote, the first thing that I thought was that "it's slipping, not before fall".

[Sehnsucht]

The bump might make a lot of people angry though.

:D Yeah I can see it now:

Nehalem Mac Pro Gets Speed Bump to 3.2GHz, Now Shipping (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 20 60 90 150 319 500 750 ... Last Page)

Or maybe that's the "Mac Pro Now Uses Agere FireWire Chipset" thread. :D :D :D

[synth3tik]

I really couldn't care less about QT or Grand Central, Since 10.6 is focused on function and not features, I just want 10.6 for the performance.

I do hope there is a Logic update. Particularly I hope Apple really works at making 3rd party AUs more stable. I always thought the idea was that an AU that has any issues would not hang Logic, this is simply not so, maybe it's me, but I would expect to see something, even just a stability update.

I got my Mac Pro back in Sept. of '06, and it will be the last desktop I buy from Apple. I can see the update really pissing people off. I mean my machine is already over 2 years old and Apple only did one real update in that time, increasing the cost along the way. Then less then a year later pop out an new one, when Apple could have simply held off until the official Intel release.

[Drag'nGT]

I'm not too worried about Snow Leopard's release. Apple can't have a sour release after all their talk about Vista's issues. I'm confident it will be solid.

[commander.data]

No, an "April Fool" would be "Snow Leopard to be released at WWDC".

After the MWSF'09 keynote ended and there was no 10.6 demo in the keynote, the first thing that I thought was that "it's slipping, not before fall".
From a strategic perspective, I wonder what Apple feels is the best way for Snow Leopard to compete against Windows 7. Even if Apple feels OS X is already leading Windows, there is no doubt the common feeling will be to pit Snow Leopard and Windows 7 against each other.

Would it be more advantageous for Snow Leopard to launch before Windows 7 or after? There are no doubt advantages and disadvantages either way whether you want to be seen as leading the market before Windows 7 or having the advantage of being a strong response once the initial Windows 7 launch and euphoria is done. The Apple-Microsoft near launches may well single-handedly revive flagging newspaper and TV advertising revenues. Whatever the case, Apple shouldn't be pressured into rushing Snow Leopard and launching before it's ready since that would be terrible after MobileMe.

[mdriftmeyer]

I really couldn't care less about QT or Grand Central, Since 10.6 is focused on function and not features, I just want 10.6 for the performance.

I do hope there is a Logic update. Particularly I hope Apple really works at making 3rd party AUs more stable. I always thought the idea was that an AU that has any issues would not hang Logic, this is simply not so, maybe it's me, but I would expect to see something, even just a stability update.

I got my Mac Pro back in Sept. of '06, and it will be the last desktop I buy from Apple. I can see the update really pissing people off. I mean my machine is already over 2 years old and Apple only did one real update in that time, increasing the cost along the way. Then less then a year later pop out an new one, when Apple could have simply held off until the official Intel release.

Grand Central is performance. It's provides the Multicore APIs for applications to become OpenMP compliant.

[Firefly2002]

When was the last time Apple bumped processor speed 3 months after the launch of a product?

They've done that plenty of times. The 9600s, the Beige G3s, the B&W G3s, the G4s, etc.

Anyway, I really REALLY don't wanna wait till November for Nehalem MBPs. I'll be a month away from 23, ugh. Old as ****. Anyway, w/e. . .

[bigwig]

How much of a difference do you think it will make in the notebooks?
Since much of Nehalem's architectural improvements are focused on floating point and vector performance (it's practically an Itanium replacement, especially considering its much higher clock), my bet is not much.

[iMaggot]

I call BS on the "SL" rumor, but i believe the Mac Pro speed boost ;)

[Schtumple]

And just like many recent Macs which were out for over a year with no revision, Apple will not lower the price what they charged when the machines were first released.

What's your point? Apple's always done that... literally, before Intel, before even PowerPC... That's just the way they've done things.

Heck the Mac Mini went about 1 and a half years without an update, at the same price, and it had terrible specs to begin with...

[MattInOz]

Mainstream desktop and mobile chips already have the northbridge onboard. I don't see what advantage nVidia's southbridge could have over Intel's southbridge when their feature-sets are pretty much standard anyways. If anything, Intel's southbridge for mobile Nehalem would probably be the first to adopt USB3.0 seeing that Intel lead it's development.

The entire nVidia-Intel Nehalem chipset debate is a non-issue for Apple and Macs. No mobile Nehalem chips will have QPI links or need a northbridge and therefore will not support an nVidia IGP. It doesn't matter whether nVidia wins a license or not, there aren't the QPI links to connect it.

nVidia has never manufactured chipsets for Xeons and seeing that the whole point of Xeons and it's higher prices is tight platform integration for guaranteed stability over performance, there is little advantage with going with nVidia. It's not like the Mac Pro needs an IGP. I doubt nVidia is arguing that their license extends to Nehalem Xeons seeing that it never extended to any previous Xeons to begin with.

The only narrow Nehalem niche for nVidia chipsets is high-end desktop chips which don't have an integrated northbridge and have QPI links. However, Apple has never used Intel desktop chips. And the idea of better integration of GPUs and chipsets for Hybrid Power is now dead on desktops, with nVidia no longer supporting Hybrid Power with the GTX285 and GTX295, while the previous GTX280 had support.

The nVidia-Intel chipset licensing war is largely irrelevent since they are going to end up fighting over making southbridges which is hardly a product differentiator. Instead of focusing on making an IGP chipset with no processor to connect to nVidia and Apple should be focused on powerful, low-cost GPUs which would be better than the IGPs that Intel can come up with anyways.

Wouldn't that be the idea. Instead of making a southbridge per say, nVidia make a GPU that hangs off the 16 Lane PCI bridge of these CPUs that also has built in to it all the southbridge functions like USB and other bus support.
Maybe there isn't a need for a southbrigde at all.

The nvidia chip maybe be able to power up it graphics core on demand and over take the Intel IGP which is likely to be bad.

It depends what Apple has up the sleeve if SL can dynamically work the switches of differnet power settings better than Leopard can with the MacBookPros.

Of interest is nVidia comment about a change where the GPU becomes the main processor. If they add in a ARM core to this centralised GPU then the Intel Processor could become the on demand processor. Imagine what that could do for Battery life.

[mrklaw]

Sickening..yes but also obvious. Apple's in the content selling business with iTunes. They'll eventually support Blu-ray but my guess is they'll attach it to $$$ Mac Pro purchases.

I *never* understand this argument. They are also in the computer and OS business. These days bluray is a big part of that, and as a 'premium' brand, Apple would be risking a lot to not support it simply because one part of their company sells movie downloads.

[chedda]

I think windows 7 will come before snow-leopard or it will be a close call there are some advantages of being last. The initial hype will have calmed and some comparisons can be made .EDIT maybe not as microsoft stated a 3 year time frame in 2007 for 7. Steve compared leopard to vista once before on stage this could happen again. The later snow leopard is, the more of a chance an incremental mac pro speed increase will be. The published snow leopard benchmarks will be done on a 3.2. The 2.26 octo will be dropped they will keep the 3 options and keep it simple. The quadro is a no brainer although the price remains questionable as apple dropped their premium ram prices (wishfull thinking) . The card will be a silent update and could happen anytime.As a long shot the lack of activity from nvidia recently could mean they are preparing something mac pro specific and designed for open cl (something like that special photoshop card they are working on). I expect there is a lot of work writing the drivers which is down to apple. The quadro platform i believe has always favoured windows users in performance, hopefully this will level things out. If this workstation is going into the 2D,3D & CAD field then full quadro support is warranted. The only real question i still have is when will the mac pro have 12 ram slots ? This i think involves a larger case as they would have done it last time if possible.

[opeter]

I probably wont be able to afford a Mac Pro until June, even if I do get $1000 for my G5.

1000 $ for your G5? Hahahaha ...

[OZMP]

I just hope SL is an improvement on a quad-core... even though my MP is for home use, I wouldn't mind another year or so before it goes to media server dutys!

On the rumored new MacBook later this year? FINGERS CROSSED!
I trialed a BlackBook and returned it due to a terrible screen and the fact it was so horribly slow to use, it was click, then **** happens, where even though my MP is old(ish), it was significantly snappier... soo

All i want by christmas is a macbook as "snappy" as my MP, hopefully the elimination of the FSB solves this!

[Umbongo]

1000 $ for your G5? Hahahaha ...

Higher end G5s still sell for $1000+

[AidenShaw]

My assumption is that there are key features in OS X that are still hidden ...

That's a recipe for a bug-filled release, of course. Nobody tests "hidden" features.


If they bump the quad core from 2.66 to 3.2, then it wouldn't be a total rip off.

The MP quad 2.66 is $800 more than a better Dell Precision Workstation T3500 configuration.

Dell offers the W3570 3.2, but it's pricey:

Quad Core Intel® Xeon® W3570 3.20GHz, 8M L3, 6.4GT/s Turbo [add $1,390]

If Apple charged $600 for the W3570, then it wouldn't be a rip-off. If they charge $1400, the Apple will still be $800 more than the Dell.


When was the last time Apple bumped processor speed 3 months after the launch of a product?

I don't understand the concern about a "new model" with the 3.2 GHz. It's just the same model with another CTO option for processor speed.

It's not a "new model".

[Umbongo]

I don't understand the concern about a "new model" with the 3.2 GHz. It's just the same model with another CTO option for processor speed.

It's not a "new model".

I don't think it is a big deal, but with Apple I also don't think anything is a certainty. I'm really just interested to know why it wasn't an option at launch.

[Stridder44]

Bumping to Nehalem? That's going to make a few people angry.


Too bad. That's the industry. Always has been and always will be. This is true with any computer manufacturer.

[JoeDMD]

The MP quad 2.66 is $800 more than a better Dell Precision Workstation T3500 configuration.

Dell offers the W3570 3.2, but it's pricey:

Quad Core Intel® Xeon® W3570 3.20GHz, 8M L3, 6.4GT/s Turbo [add $1,390]

If Apple charged $600 for the W3570, then it wouldn't be a rip-off. If they charge $1400, the Apple will still be $800 more than the Dell.



Actually, the T3500 speced out like the Mac Quad (2.66)
w/ 3GB of ram and a 500GB drive is $2129, only $370 less than the Mac Pro, which is closer than I thought, but for $2579 dell gives you the 2.93.

Dell charges 450 for the upgrade, Apple charges 500. Same chip.
Intel charges $278.

What I don't undstand at all is how or why dell can offer the Gainestown processors in single chip configuration. Less power consumption?

Surprisingly, the 8 core from dell t5500 is more expansive than the 8 core mac pro, but of course, the dells include a monitor
They can also apparently can hold a lot more memory.
Its weird that dell doesn't offer a 64 bit OS BTO.

[jmpage2]

I would believe a September release of SL, maybe even an October release. Windows 7 is not going to be the pile of crap that Vista was on release, and Apple knows it.

They need a polished, high performance OS with minimal issues to launch against Win7. If SL is not ready, and doesn't have a heavy coat of shellac on it (Marble interface, Blu-Ray support, etc) then the press is going to have a field day showing how "advanced" Win7 is compared to Snow Leopard.

Also, there are very few quad core Macs out there so there's no rush on getting an OS out there that will bring the most out of them.

I just hope that now that Sony has greatly simplified Blu-Ray licensing that Apple will bring Blu-Ray support, with at least a Blu-Ray reader DVD burner super drive to the entire Mac line. Win7 will have Blu-Ray support baked in, and Steve is going to continue to call Blu-Ray a "bag of hurt"? I just don't see it, and I don't see Win7 giving kernel support to Sony DRM implementation for Blu-Ray, so not sure why this is an issue with Apple.

[AidenShaw]

Actually, the T3500 speced out like the Mac Quad (2.66)
w/ 3GB of ram and a 500GB drive is $2129, only $370 less than the Mac Pro, which is closer than I thought.

My Dell quote is:

Dell Precision T3500 64bit
Starting Price $1,980

Dell Precision T3500, CMT, Standard Power Supply T3500 1 [224-4422] 1
Genuine Windows Vista« Business Service Pack 1, with media, 64, ENG VB61E 1 [310-8642][420-8954] 11
No Energy Star NOESTAR 1 [330-3201] 25
Quad Core Intel« Xeon« W3520 2.66GHz, 8M L3, 4.8GT/s W3520 1 [317-0125] 2
Mini-Tower Chassis Configuration MT 1 [311-7463] 15
3GB, 1066MHz,DDR3 SDRAM, ECC (3 DIMMS) 3G3E663 1 [317-0106] 3
512MB NVIDIA« Quadro« FX 580, DUAL MON, 2 DP & 1 DVI FX580 1 [320-7893] 6
C1 All SATA drives, No RAID for 1 Hard Drive SATA1 1 [341-8562] 9
Integrated Intel chipset SATA 3.0Gb/s controller NSASCTL 1 [341-9289] 24
750GB SATA 3Gb/s with NCQ and 16MB DataBurst CacheÖ 750GS 1 [341-7033] 8
16X DVD+/-RW w/ Cyberlink PowerDVDÖ and Roxio CreatorÖ Dell Ed DVRW16 1 [313-7457][420-7980][420-9179] 16
No Floppy Drive and No Media Card Reader NFD 1 [341-5255] 10
No Monitor NMN 1 [320-3316] 5
Dell QuietKey Keyboard QUSB 1 [330-3203] 4
Dell USB 2 Button Optical Mouse USBO 1 [330-3945] 12
No Speaker option NSPKR 1 [313-2663] 18
Documentation, English, with 125V Power Cord DOCENG 1 [330-3156][330-3157] 21
No Resource DVD NORCD 1 [330-4024] 27
Shipping Material for System SHIP 1 [330-3209] 40
3 Year Basic Limited Warranty and 3 Year NBD Onsite Service U3OS 1 [992-8982][993-3080][993-9018][993-9027] 29
No Onsite System Setup NOINSTL 1 [900-9987] 32


I used a 750 GB disk, to make it bigger than the MP.

Also note that since the Dell has a 3 year next-business-day onsite warranty, you should at least add Applecare to the MP, bringing it to $2748. That's a $768 difference.


Its weird that dell doesn't offer a 64 bit OS BTO.

They do - see my quote. Note that the 32/64 choice is made on an earlier page - since that choice affects the set of options.

[JoeDMD]

My Dell quote is:



I used a 750 GB disk, to make it bigger than the MP.

Also note that since the Dell has a 3 year next-business-day onsite warranty, you should at least add Applecare to the MP, bringing it to $2748. That's a $768 difference.




They do - see my quote. Note that the 32/64 choice is made on an earlier page - since that choice affects the set of options.

It look like you only get the 64 bit option if you select "large business." Also, by going through small business, the same specs cost 2050. Strange.

[deconstruct60]

I don't think it is a big deal, but with Apple I also don't think anything is a certainty. I'm really just interested to know why it wasn't an option at launch.

If Apple was getting pre-full run capacity production chips, then the ones with the highest Hz will have the lowest yields. So perhaps not even enough for Apple's relatively limited requirements. Plus, I bet might help with relations with the other vendors who didn't get to launch for weeks a consolation prize if Apple is at the end of the line for these parts.

And it gives Apple another "Oh and more thing " to just add another configure-to-order option at WWDC (or some other event).

This really shouldn't be a big deal. Just for the folks who "need" to buy MacPro at the far end of the scale should this make a difference to. There are likely a very small number who have pressed their brand new 2.93 into a fully 100% utilized state.

[deconstruct60]

The published snow leopard benchmarks will be done on a 3.2. The 2.26 octo will be dropped they will keep the 3 options and keep it simple.


What is magical about only 3 options. Why is 4 options significantly more complicated? Especially one which probably won't get pulled all that often, but will be priced with even higher margins.

(Small upside for Apple can wait to see if there are buyers for 3.2 machines at those prices before commit to it. Lots of companies are not buying anything these days. The minimal 2.93 machine is close to $6K. Does Apple really need the pub of a $6+K workstation right now. The 17" laptop has already been spun into a effective "Apple is expensive" commercial. )



The only real question i still have is when will the mac pro have 12 ram slots ? This i think involves a larger case as they would have done it last time if possible.

Not until a new MacPro case design which likely means serveral years... at which point it wouldn't matter. (since the memory density would have dropped).

12 slots run counter to the objective that Apple has for their "pop out" CPU/Memory tray. (http://www.apple.com/macpro/design.html#memory)
By making the tray perpendicular to the rest of the motherboard they are constrained in width by the width of the MacPro case. There is no room for 12 slots on that tray.

Maybe on the single CPU tray. But that also means a different design approach. Apple did 1 DIMM / controller approach ( and a mode where one of the controllers does 2 if fill all 4 slots). The 12 DIMMs in the dual CPU package setup means each of the three controller has two DIMMs. So perhaps could do 6 on the Single CPU tray.

Once 4GB DIMMS drop in price won't be as big of a deal. Folks are using 12 to go "large" with only affordable 2GB increments.

[iMacmatician]

What is magical about only 3 options. Why is 4 options significantly more complicated? Especially one which probably won't get pulled all that often, but will be priced with even higher margins. The Clovertown addition in 2007 gave 4 options, and the Harpertown Mac Pros also had 4 CPU options.

We kinda have 5 CPU options with Gainestown: 1x 2.67 GHz, 1x 2.93 GHz, 2x 2.27 GHz, 2x 2.67 GHz, 2x 2.93 GHz.

[JGowan]

Sickening..yes but also obvious. Apple's in the content selling business with iTunes. They'll eventually support Blu-ray but my guess is they'll attach it to $$$ Mac Pro purchases.I don't think it has anything to do with iTunes business... Apple knows that if people want Blu-ray, they'll buy it and hook it to their HDTVs... Blu-ray is sooo much more than a very clear video... it's got enough space on one disc to put a TON of other content that iTunes will never provide. A dual layer disc will hold 50GIGS!!! iTunes is never going to really compete with this.

The argument from what I understand is that Sony wants Apple to open up the OS kernal to put in copyright protection and Apple won't do it. It has nothing to do with selling a movie.

[deconstruct60]

You are making still far more complicated than it is, probably because you aren't clear what the capabilities of the traditional northbridge and southbridge are.

....

This is functionality will be replicated in Nehalem chips. Specifically Bloomfield and Gainestown are high-end chips and so they have external northbridges with at least 32 links just like previous high-end chipsets. Clarksfield and Arrandale which are mainstream processors will have integrated northbridges with 16 links, just as was common before.


I understand. What I'm not seeing is an incremental improvement here. The mainstream Nehalem are going to be roughly equivalent to the 2 generations back high-end chips. If those chips were better matched to the external northbridge with the equivalent of 32 links, you are going backwards in terms of being able to take full advantage of the bandwidth that workloads the leverage that power require.

Pragmatically, you are probably right, but that is more so because mainstream folks aren't going to fire up all 4 cores and have them run full blast. It also helps give Intel the market segmentation to push you into the current generation high end Northbridge if you need to max out performance.


Removing bottlenecks was part of what initial Nahalem Xeons have done with respect to memory. Reshuffling the deck chairs doesn't do much with these other Northbridge moves do much other removing the options for choice in terms of performance. Going to same some space and perhaps a tad cheaper.



The only thing you are losing is some flexibility since you can't really select your northbridge anymore.
...
In regards to being forced to pay for Intel IGPs, the IGP will only be included in Arrandale which is a dual core part and would be pretty low-end by the time it's released in 2010.


For these next two iterations yes. However, where Intel consistently makes moves to remove your ability to select a options from other vendors. (It isn't so much that the intel options were pragmatically paired, as it was that you had other option. You didn't HAVE TO buy a Intel Northbridge.) Your explanations seems bounded by the presumption that you are going buy Intel chipsets anyway.

If Intel is going to herd you into your Northbridge choice now, it is just a matter of time before they will try to herd all the mainstream folks into their IGP solution also.

[mark.kroes]

Dear all,

I want to buy a new MBP 15" but really don't know when to buy it when I'm reading al this information. Someone please help and provide me with tips because I want it now :) but don't want to read in 2 months that there is a new one coming with new ghz and gigabites .......

[Eric S.]

I want to buy a new MBP 15" but really don't know when to buy it when I'm reading al this information. Someone please help and provide me with tips because I want it now :) but don't want to read in 2 months that there is a new one coming with new ghz and gigabites .......

This is the best place to start:
http://guides.macrumors.com/MacBook_Pro_Buyer%27s_Guide

Unfortunately Apple is very secretive about new product plans, so previous trends and speculation are about the best you can do.

[runningman1228]

"- Notebooks to move to Nehalem in November"

Does this mean the iMac will move to Nehalem as well. I couldn't see the laptops being Nehalem and the iMac not?
Any idea as to when we will see a quad iMac....?

[grue]

That's a recipe for a bug-filled release, of course. Nobody tests "hidden" features.


That's how Apple rolls with OS X. Every single 10.x release has been buggier than Paris Hilton's panties. They use the public as beta testers because they know they have a faithful legion of idiots who'll dive onto the software just so they can brag about having the new OS, and they won't complain about the inane bugs.

[finalcut]

bah september for snow leopard. Hope to get it sooner hehe

[Eric S.]

bah september for snow leopard. Hope to get it sooner hehe

Sooner and buggier? ;)

[Plymouthbreezer]

My feelings:

• While September feels like a long way away, I'd rather Apple take their time and give us a trouble free release. Anyway, Leopard has been decently stable with the last few updates, I'm in no rush to upgrade.
• The prospect of getting a 17" anti-glare MBP come this rumored updates is tempting... I could use the extra screen-space, and the upgraded processing power. I wonder how much I could get for my current MBP...

[IronRoses]

It's all good upgradiging the mac pro...again....but what about graphics. It seems to me the only reason apple went for nvidia in the first place is because most mid-range nv cards don't need seperate power.

Since apple are so tight about wires showing their unable to put REALLY high end graphics cards int heir machine and so are we.

I'd love to put in a 4890 ATI in a amc pro, if i owned one but i wouldn't be able to because it need it#'s own power connecter.

They are going to have to do it soon because sep[erate power is the way forword as it looks.

I'm sure that'll be the point when apple buy out ati or nvidia and designs their own cards. i hope not though....

My other problem is mac pro updates. why so many, yet again, a great way to piss us off apple....thanks for ripping us off. Reminds me a bit like the iphone releases.....once again, thanks Apple we still love you. hmmmm

[maestro55]

I was looking for to getting Snow Leopard over the summer. I am sad to see that it is rumored we will have to wait until the fall to get Snow Leopard. Exchange 2007 support in mail.app will make my job supporting mac users in the field so much easier. Entourage is AWFUL!