PDA

View Full Version : iTunes Europe Update


MacRumors
Apr 16, 2004, 01:23 PM
Reuters reports (http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4850830) on Apple's ongoing efforts to launch iTunes Europe this year.

Apple's European chief, Pascal Cagni, promised "When we launch in Europe, we want to do it well". According to Cagni, they are still aiming for a 2004 release but acknowledges a few month delay.

Previous rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/02/20040210003959.shtml) had indicated that licensing issues have been holding back the launch of the European service.

Trowaman
Apr 16, 2004, 01:27 PM
better late than never? :confused:

JoeMacDaddy
Apr 16, 2004, 01:27 PM
Even though it might be delayed, it is good news to have iTunes in Europe. This is a great market to enter and I want some of the music I can't get in the US.

Bravo Apple.
;)

telecomm
Apr 16, 2004, 01:31 PM
What about Canada? You know, that place up north? We've had a (PC only) music download service operating since last fall, what's the hold up here?

If they are going to have a Europe-wide site as well as a US site, why couldn't they just expand the current US site to itunes North America?

There were rumors of discussions going on last year, but it's been pretty quiet lately.

k2k koos
Apr 16, 2004, 01:34 PM
Long over due, thanks to once again the politics of the record companies in europe. Get your act together SONY, Virgin, EMI,Dreyfus, Polydor etc etc etc!!!
:mad:

Okay I had my moan, Apple , keep on releasing cool stuff, and services, and if you do it well, that means sync your stores in the US and Europe, so that all music is available everywhere, no 'import album' ************ etc, Music is universal, and should univerally be available! Go get em! :)

aftk2
Apr 16, 2004, 01:37 PM
This is a great market to enter and I want some of the music I can't get in the US.Bravo Apple.
;)

No doubt. This is one reason I think more US customers should be clamoring for iTunes worldwide. Not only would it mean that our friends elsewhere could use the iTMS, it would mean, theoretically (and I hope it means this), that we can have instant, inexpensive access to heretofore unavailable (or prohibitively expensive) songs.

I'm a fan of several Australian pop bands. Well, after their albums didn't do very well in the United States, their follow-ups are only available here (through Amazon, for example) as highly priced import CDs. Well, I don't want to pay $36.99 but I'd gladly pay $9.99 or $12.99.

BornAgainMac
Apr 16, 2004, 01:38 PM
Soon I can move back to my country. The reason: iTunes.

deepkid
Apr 16, 2004, 01:42 PM
What about Canada? You know, that place up north? We've had a (PC only) music download service operating since last fall, what's the hold up here?

If they are going to have a Europe-wide site as well as a US site, why couldn't they just expand the current US site to itunes North America?


It's never that simple. Canada is a different country, with its own laws. Any online music store has to negotiate with the country/territory in question, the record label and also publishers and artists themselves, depending on how each record contract was structured.

Add a dash of uniformed skepticism since the online music business is still a cottage industry and you can easily see how much progress Apple's made in a very short time.

So the question is, should Apple turn inpatient and accept any haphazard offering from a country/record label/publsher/artist.. or should it stay the course, blaze a new and smart trail, then introduce their online store with the ease of use and joy associated with the U.S.-based iTMS?

I think the latter.

Omad0n
Apr 16, 2004, 01:43 PM
QUestion, with iTunes Europe launched, does this mean that we will get the European lables on our iTunes? I ask because a lot of what I listen to is from Europe, and it'd be great if I could get it through iTunes.

Jack White
Apr 16, 2004, 01:54 PM
Even though it might be delayed, it is good news to have iTunes in Europe. This is a great market to enter and I want some of the music I can't get in the US.

Bravo Apple.
;)
i would think you would be able to buy music in your own country's store only. so someone in the us would only be able to buy in the us, not the europe one.

D*I*S_Frontman
Apr 16, 2004, 01:54 PM
I, too, am wondering if the iTunes catalog will be one huge international one or divided by region.

My prog band is on iTunes domestically, but there is a whopping HUGE prog fan base in Europe we would love to reach. If our album and songs are available on the new iTunes Europe site, life would be grand...

winmacguy
Apr 16, 2004, 01:54 PM
Long over due, thanks to once again the politics of the record companies in europe. Get your act together SONY, Virgin, EMI,Dreyfus, Polydor etc etc etc!!!
:mad:

Okay I had my moan, Apple , keep on releasing cool stuff, and services, and if you do it well, that means sync your stores in the US and Europe, so that all music is available everywhere, no 'import album' ************ etc, Music is universal, and should univerally be available! Go get em! :)

Once again, its not the record companies that are the problem it is the International EU laws that are prohibiting a European wide release of iTMS

telecomm
Apr 16, 2004, 01:58 PM
It's never that simple. Canada is a different country, with its own laws. Any online music store has to negotiate with the country/territory in question, the record label and also publishers and artists themselves, depending on how each record contract was structured.


I didn't mean to imply that I thought it would be simple, but since negotiations have apparently been underway since sometime last year, I would expect that it wouldn't take as long to make arrangements with one country as it would to arrange licensing with all of Europe.

It seems as though apple may be aiming for one (semi) global launch date of the various music stores, and I suspect that would leave Canadians waiting longer than necessary.

nsb3000
Apr 16, 2004, 02:01 PM
The Article claims that they want to wait "until they get it right". Perfectionism might be helpful when designing a product such as an computer or ipod, but with an online service you can tweak it all the time. I would think getting it out ASAP should be the number one goal.

msconvert
Apr 16, 2004, 02:03 PM
..... I want some of the music I can't get in the US.

I bet, with the varied license agreements between all the EU countries and even the US, that there will be different catalogs between the US and European markets. So, you will be stuck with the same selection.

nacl99
Apr 16, 2004, 02:05 PM
Once again, its not the record companies that are the problem it is the International EU laws that are prohibiting a European wide release of iTMS

Damn Straight
Europeans have no one to blame but their own overreaching governments and laws. A good example of this is Frances tax on MP3 players. Over controlling governments suck.

coolfactor
Apr 16, 2004, 02:10 PM
Now im seriouse who cares i mean you can get it free on kazaa,hotline client, shareaza and limewire not to mentions thousands more :p :D :mad: :(

The only good thing about this is its made by apple :) :cool:

You can also get free pepsi by fishing out half-empty bottles from the garbage that some else has paid for. That's what it comes down to... people using p2p networks (yes, I'm guilty of it since I'm in Canada and can't yet buy tunes from iTMS), are only scavengers trying to get freebies of what others have paid for.

No wonder concerts are so expensive... because that's the only way for artists to make any real money these days... selling their songs doesn't do it because of the "music should be completely free" generation. Well, it's time for that generation to move on.

coolfactor
Apr 16, 2004, 02:14 PM
The Article claims that they want to wait "until they get it right". Perfectionism might be helpful when designing a product such as an computer or ipod, but with an online service you can tweak it all the time. I would think getting it out ASAP should be the number one goal.

Take as long as you need Apple! We know that when you set your mind to do something, you aim to do it right, and that's what makes you so great. Don't listen to anyone try to get you to shortcut the process. There are already so many other companies out there that do that, and now we live in a Walmart warehouse world instead of people taking the time to build quality, well-crafted wares.

Thanks for your hard work. I'm ready to buy from you when you come to Canada.

Patmian212
Apr 16, 2004, 02:15 PM
You can also get free pepsi by fishing out half-empty bottles from the garbage that some else has paid for. That's what it comes down to... people using p2p networks (yes, I'm guilty of it since I'm in Canada and can't yet buy tunes from iTMS), are only scavengers trying to get freebies of what others have paid for.

No wonder concerts are so expensive... because that's the only way for artists to make any real money these days... selling their songs doesn't do it because of the "music should be completely free" generation. Well, it's time for that generation to move on.


Well im living with my parents and in 15 and i get $20 a week . i cant afford cds with that and if i do buy one i wont go out for the rest of the week.

SCAVANGERS im ofended it is true that tunes should cost something but some people just cant afford it.

P2p is fine its sharing you put your stuff out there and you get peoples stuff its a big happy family.

Nothing wrong with p2p!!!!!

reaper
Apr 16, 2004, 02:18 PM
The Article claims that they want to wait "until they get it right". Perfectionism might be helpful when designing a product such as an computer or ipod, but with an online service you can tweak it all the time. I would think getting it out ASAP should be the number one goal.

i would think that the waiting "until they get it right" has more to do with licensing agreements and technical aspects of drm in europe rather than the look and feel of the site.

i think apple has a good head for business in this arena (digital music and drm) and i wouldn't think they would want to delay the launch any longer than was absolutely necessary to work out the licensing logistics.

- reaper

adamsan
Apr 16, 2004, 02:34 PM
Damn Straight
Europeans have no one to blame but their own overreaching governments and laws. A good example of this is Frances tax on MP3 players. Over controlling governments suck.


Yeah that'll be it... only last week Tony Blair jumped out in front of me at the Virgin Megastore and screamed *really loudly* at me until I put that Beach Boys CD back on the shelf. And then Jacques Chirac came to my house and threatened to imprison me for listening to the radio. If only we had proponents of personal freedom like GWB and John Ashcroft over here to help us out.

Do you not think this is more of a commercial issue that a political one?

AppleMatt
Apr 16, 2004, 02:49 PM
This is good news I suppose, but "few months delay" worries me, Apple never admit delays but somehow often managed to get them. If they're admitting the delay...

Anyway, it looks as-if we're catching up a bit. iPhoto Europe printing, a London Apple store, and eventually iTunes.

I'm starting to anticipate 10.4 now, it's getting close to WWDC...

AppleMatt

gekko513
Apr 16, 2004, 02:51 PM
Well im living with my parents and in 15 and i get $20 a week . i cant afford cds with that and if i do buy one i wont go out for the rest of the week.

SCAVANGERS im ofended it is true that tunes should cost something but some people just cant afford it.

P2p is fine its sharing you put your stuff out there and you get peoples stuff its a big happy family.

Nothing wrong with p2p!!!!!
Weell you're stealing someone elses intellectual property. This is people who have been working for you to enjoy this artform.

I suppose you would be outraged if some stranger took most of your wage because they couldn't afford a trip to Singapore, followed up by excusing themselves by saying they think travel ought to be availiable to all ... and finally ... actually getting away with it.

Windowlicker
Apr 16, 2004, 02:53 PM
Somehow...someway...I am sure this means new G5 PowerBooks next week.

I just know it...

haha! nice one! ;D

but honestly.. this is only good news from my point of view, since I don't own a credit card as of yet. so what I mean is they can discuss things out with the european music company bastards we have here..
if they get enough music i listen to added to itms, they'll have a customer here for sure (and i have to get that credit card).

gotohamish
Apr 16, 2004, 03:00 PM
The Article claims that they want to wait "until they get it right". Perfectionism might be helpful when designing a product such as an computer or ipod, but with an online service you can tweak it all the time. I would think getting it out ASAP should be the number one goal.

I wholeheartedly disagree - if they just hash it together, then make it live, and it has faults this causes a problem.

Imagine you hear about the iTMS, give it a try, and something goes wrong, or it's not as clear as you thought, then you'd get pissed off, and go for an alternative - that's why it's worth getting it right, and stealing customers, rather than just getting out there first.

Look at the iPod - not the first of it's type by a long way, but they waited, and when it came out, it's was perfect - and now look at it!

the future
Apr 16, 2004, 03:01 PM
Once again, its not the record companies that are the problem it is the International EU laws that are prohibiting a European wide release of iTMS

Huh? As the whole EU is a free trade zone, it has to be a problem with the record companies.

whocares
Apr 16, 2004, 03:02 PM
Damn Straight
Europeans have no one to blame but their own overreaching governments and laws. A good example of this is Frances tax on MP3 players. Over controlling governments suck.

Ok, lets no make this a politcal thread, like most other threads that involved Apple and Europe did.

I'd like to remind some of you that personally attacking a country is against forum rules and can get you in trouble.

msconvert
Apr 16, 2004, 03:36 PM
Damn Straight
Europeans have no one to blame but their own overreaching governments and laws. A good example of this is Frances tax on MP3 players. Over controlling governments suck.

Canada has an mp3 tax too. It just they charge you on CD media as well as the players. Maybe that is why they don't have an iTMS either.

winmacguy
Apr 16, 2004, 03:54 PM
The Article claims that they want to wait "until they get it right". Perfectionism might be helpful when designing a product such as an computer or ipod, but with an online service you can tweak it all the time. I would think getting it out ASAP should be the number one goal.

If there is one thing that is crucial with the launch of the European iTMS that would be to GET RIGHT THE FIRST TIME! otherwise the entire European press will be all over Apple like a bad smell. So if Apple wants to do some thorough testing with its music store to have it "perfect" and "ease of use" then I am all for that.

Windowlicker
Apr 16, 2004, 03:55 PM
The Article claims that they want to wait "until they get it right". Perfectionism might be helpful when designing a product such as an computer or ipod, but with an online service you can tweak it all the time. I would think getting it out ASAP should be the number one goal.

The "until they get it right" means getting the laws and DRM or something like that working with each other, not tweaking a piece of software (which would be iTunes in this case). The service would totally suck for us europeans if the rules were different for us (unless they were better;).

Also, how will the tunes be priced in other countries? There are lots of things they have to calculate and make deals with the companies and countries. That's what they mean by getting it right.

winmacguy
Apr 16, 2004, 04:08 PM
Huh? As the whole EU is a free trade zone, it has to be a problem with the record companies.

Apparently the EU is going to sign an agreement sometime this summer to allow music to be downloaded legally from the internet in allow EU member countries which will enable the type of system that Apple has set up where iTMS is the same for every country. From what I can make out that is part of what the problem has been up till now, as well as all the record companies requireing different distribution release dates and prices.

eSnow
Apr 16, 2004, 04:11 PM
Take all the time it takes, legal issues, licensing, we understand.

After all, there are currently only 3-5 existing commercial download services over here, so obviously it is next to impossible to license music for download...

Apple, get real! Your market share is less than 3% over here for a reason - and being lackadaisical in inplementing the iTMS and throwing smoke screens is not going to help.

Spagolli94
Apr 16, 2004, 04:15 PM
iTunes this, iPod that.

Doesn't Apple make computers anymore?

page3
Apr 16, 2004, 04:24 PM
The World doesn't need a European iTunes store. It needs a UK store, a French store, a German store etc etc. We could have been downloading legal music a long long time ago... sigh.

Foocha
Apr 16, 2004, 04:27 PM
Let's not blame Apple's delays on the European Union - it may have its downsides, but it's surely working in Apple's favour, since it agenda tends to be about harmonising law, tax, currency etc between member states. The truth is, it's probably a lack of European integration that's giving Apple the headache.

The reason that Apple is still working on this whilst other legal music download services have already launched in the EU is because they're trying to do a pan-European store - nothing similar currently exists to my knowledge. If they pull it off, it could be really cool.

Regarding iTMS in Canada - since P2P music sharing serices are apparently legal there, is there any need for a paid-for service? I'm genuinely interested in this point - not trolling - some of my best friends are Canadian...

rjwill246
Apr 16, 2004, 04:27 PM
Take all the time it takes, legal issues, licensing, we understand.

After all, there are currently only 3-5 existing commercial download services over here, so obviously it is next to impossible to license music for download...

Apple, get real! Your market share is less than 3% over here for a reason - and being lackadaisical in inplementing the iTMS and throwing smoke screens is not going to help.

Wow! We all know that Apple has absolutely no interest in selling product, particularly if it is to foreigners. For that reason alone, they would hardly have done any due diligence in securing the rights to launch the iTMS overseas. Of course, having Apple Corp trying to sue them might not help.
And all the hoopla about iPods, I bet they haven't got a single ad in the London subways promoting them. Actually, I have never seen any Macs in ANY foreign country come to think of it. Shame. I really, really wish they seriously wanted to market 'just one more thing.'

PickledSquirrel
Apr 16, 2004, 04:33 PM
Yeah that'll be it... only last week Tony Blair jumped out in front of me at the Virgin Megastore and screamed *really loudly* at me until I put that Beach Boys CD back on the shelf. And then Jacques Chirac came to my house and threatened to imprison me for listening to the radio. If only we had proponents of personal freedom like GWB and John Ashcroft over here to help us out.

Do you not think this is more of a commercial issue that a political one?

:D :D :D It seems to me that the boundaries between commercial and political issues are dwindling.
But nevertheless, an iTunes store in Europe would be very welcome and who- or whatever is causing the delays, I didn't bloody vote for it :)

Foocha
Apr 16, 2004, 04:40 PM
Actually, I have never seen any Macs in ANY foreign country come to think of it. Shame. I really, really wish they seriously wanted to market 'just one more thing.'
I run a Web design business in London - we're entirely Mac & Linux based.

Apple has been running extensive Outdoor & TV advertising for iPod - there's a whole Mac world outside the US, you know! :)

MCCFR
Apr 16, 2004, 04:41 PM
Once again, its not the record companies that are the problem it is the International EU laws that are prohibiting a European wide release of iTMS

Once again, you're wrong!

It's actually music industry bureaucracy, as illustrated by having several rights collection societies - which are commercial entities - for writers, performers, producers and - since the most recent amendment to the Berne Convention on copyright - even session musicians.

If it was EU bureaucracy, we would have a store for Norway, Switzerland, Japan and a host of other countries, but it isn't.

Actually, the European Commission is very concerned that the diversity of rights bodies is holding back the EU digitally and is talking about legislating to unify rights collection across the EU.

Too many pigs with their noses in the trough, who aren't representing the interests of their members especially those who have the most to gain from iTMS.

Makosuke
Apr 16, 2004, 04:41 PM
Hey, I'm not a music industry expert, but you just know that the licensing system across international borders has got to be a total mess. It'll be a miracle if Apple manages to come out with a fair, universally available European store that covers every country, and it'll be well worth the wait for the business it'll do. I'm being patient, and I think they're going about it the right way.

As much as I don't think this'll happen, I do desperately hope that the'll be music cross-pollenation. Not for Europe, but if Japanese acts start getting on the iTMS, I'll spend so much money there it won't even be funny.

Hey, if they can swing a deal somewhere around 100 yen a track in Japan, it'd be huge, considering that CDs sell for upwards of $30 there (and you thought $16 was overpriced).

nacl99
Apr 16, 2004, 05:18 PM
Yeah that'll be it... only last week Tony Blair jumped out in front of me at the Virgin Megastore and screamed *really loudly* at me until I put that Beach Boys CD back on the shelf. And then Jacques Chirac came to my house and threatened to imprison me for listening to the radio. If only we had proponents of personal freedom like GWB and John Ashcroft over here to help us out.

Do you not think this is more of a commercial issue that a political one?

You missed the point, however I would say that the politics of some countries hurts the good parts of capitalism.

Hey at least GWB doesn't make me pay the poor record companies $30 when I buy an mp3 player :-)

nacl99
Apr 16, 2004, 05:22 PM
Ok, lets no make this a politcal thread, like most other threads that involved Apple and Europe did.

I'd like to remind some of you that personally attacking a country is against forum rules and can get you in trouble.

Attack not.

The MP3 tax is a fact, I had no idea Canada did it too on cds, thats baffles the mind.

Je suis stupéfié!

greg75
Apr 16, 2004, 05:25 PM
Once again, its not the record companies that are the problem it is the International EU laws that are prohibiting a European wide release of iTMS
Buy yourself a clue. Copyright laws are similar in most of the world as they are implementations of WIPO treaties.

It is the record companies who divide up distribution rights who are to blame.

Btw, international EU laws, haha, good one. You are very bright indeed.

greg75
Apr 16, 2004, 05:32 PM
Apparently the EU is going to sign an agreement sometime this summer to allow music to be downloaded legally from the internet in allow EU member countries
Apparently you are talking out of your ass.

*IF* it was illegal (It's not) to download songs (that are being legally distributed) off the Internet in the EU, they would not sign an agreement (you don't sign agreements with yourself), they would repeal or amend the directive in question.

hob
Apr 16, 2004, 05:56 PM
A few points:

1. It distrurbs me that kids only a couple of years younger than me feel it is ok to download music illegally. True, there is no legal way for me to do it on my powerbook right now, but I know Apple are working on something - and I always purchase anything I download and keep (in the end!)

2. Why does the E.U have to sign an agreement to allow legal downloading? We already HAVE legal downloading services in the UK - e.g. Coke Music (http://www.mycokemusic.com).

3. After studying (and living in) the E.U. for many years - my main concern is that there's a two-tier system, and it always contradicts itself - it shouldn't be possible for an individual nation state to impose a tax on something - without either prior approval from the E.U. (at least) or without it being widespread legislation. It's just the way that the E.U. impose all these rules on many different aspects of our lives (e.g. british farming practices) and then let us still dictate many of our own terms for other things - it should be total control or none - then you wouldn't get headaches like Apple is obviously getting for iTMSEU! (as I like to call it :P)

Anyway, that's my two... PENCE! :D

Spyd3y
Apr 16, 2004, 06:07 PM
Please excuse my stupidity, but what does the MS in iTMS stand for? :confused:

Foocha
Apr 16, 2004, 06:07 PM
There are strong arguments in favour of tax harmonisation - principally concerning the single market.

The counter argument concerns subsidiarity - taking decisions at the most local level appropriate. Withdrawing the rights of members states' national parliaments to set local taxation will substantially reduce their powers and autonomy.

Personal view - we do not yet have adequate democratic accountability at an EU level for EU-wide tax harmonisation - it's just not appropriate for the European Comission, which is not democratically accountable, and not very transparent, to be setting taxation levels. Let's have a directly elected EU president, and misiters appointed by the president from members of the European parliament instead of commissioners. With such democratic institutions in place, then we can really start talking about Europe wide legislation, and maybe get an iTunes Music Store Europe up and running a little faster too ;)

winmacguy
Apr 16, 2004, 06:38 PM
Please excuse my stupidity, but what does the MS in iTMS stand for? :confused:
MS in the iTMS = Music Store which = iTunes Music Store

whocares
Apr 16, 2004, 07:47 PM
Attack not.

Maybe, but "Over controlling governments suck." is. ;)

I do however agree that taxing MP3 and CDs is a useless measure. But it's not what's holding iTMS back, it's most likely the greedy/foolish music companies.

iLilana
Apr 16, 2004, 08:03 PM
Who cares? CMRRIA TAKE NOTE! Get your **** together and work something out with apple!!! Canada needs iTMS! :mad:

CmdrLaForge
Apr 17, 2004, 02:16 AM
The sooner the better. There are already some other services starting in europe and it would be a shame if Apple is soo late behind others.

Bring it on !

Zaty
Apr 17, 2004, 02:47 AM
Once again, you're wrong!

It's actually music industry bureaucracy, as illustrated by having several rights collection societies - which are commercial entities - for writers, performers, producers and - since the most recent amendment to the Berne Convention on copyright - even session musicians.

If it was EU bureaucracy, we would have a store for Norway, Switzerland, Japan and a host of other countries, but it isn't.

Actually, the European Commission is very concerned that the diversity of rights bodies is holding back the EU digitally and is talking about legislating to unify rights collection across the EU.

Too many pigs with their noses in the trough, who aren't representing the interests of their members especially those who have the most to gain from iTMS.

Actually, a representative of Apple Switzerland said in an interview earlier this year that iTMS was ready to be launched in Switzerland but Apple wanted to launch it in all European countries simultaneously. If they can't achieve that goal within next the few months, they should really reconsider their all-at-once strategy and get iTMS out of the door where it's ready.

eSnow
Apr 17, 2004, 03:13 AM
Actually, a representative of Apple Switzerland said in an interview earlier this year that iTMS was ready to be launched in Switzerland but Apple wanted to launch it in all European countries simultaneously. If they can't achieve that goal within next the few months, they should really reconsider their all-at-once strategy and get iTMS out of the door where it's ready.

Yeah, but Switzerland is no part of Europe ;)

Zaty
Apr 17, 2004, 03:28 AM
Yeah, but Switzerland is no part of Europe ;)

Excuse me? Just because we're not a member of the EU doesn't mean we're not part of Europe.

Vonnie
Apr 17, 2004, 07:50 AM
If there is such a big problem with european laws, such a big problem that a relatively big company like Apple can't handle, why are there so many music-download-services available in Europe? If I wanted to, I could buy lots of WMA songs online..

msandersen
Apr 17, 2004, 10:05 AM
I'm a fan of several Australian pop bands.
Well, at least you have good taste :p
There are a couple of Aussie bands who have had a cult following overseas, especially England. I think it was when Icehouse had their last concert outside the Opera House, a lot of Brits came over to their surprise for the weekend then back to work. Over 24hrs flying each way.

We're still waiting down here for iTunes, damnit. Telstra, our biggest Telco, is ramping up its advertising for their WMA-based service, especially on 'cool' radio stations. I think there may be other services here by now.
http://bigpondmusic.com/
The terms for this and other WMA services are more restrictive than iTunes, so I think it's a case of the music companies favouring the WMA-based services now that their Mac-experiment proved successful. If they can have terms where people don't have the right to put their music on CDs or copy onto portable music players, why not? (Not quite that bad for bigpondmusic, barely).

The real game for Microsoft is Digital Rights Management, and the royalties therefrom, which goes far beyond mere music, and they intend to be quite ruthless in establishing a new monopoly in this area. This also ties into the whole Palladium thing, where developers will have to pay MS big money in future to certify their software "trustworthy", or it won't run alongside other "trusted" software or use their data (eg OpenOffice won't be able to open Word documents, you'll need MS mediaplayers to play sound and video, etc, even on other platforms).

This is also why I think Apple should accept Real's offer, whatever people may think of their spyware. We need more people using AAC, and any other remotely open standard, and if FairPlay is needed to shore up support for it as opposed to WMA, then Apple and whoever owns the license should oblige at a competitive price, as once Microsoft gets their stores up, there will be a WMA-based Microsoft store on every new PC. Same goes with competitors like Sony, even if they use competing formats, if they use FairPlay versus WMA DRM, so much the better.
iTunes could go the way of Netscape if they're not careful, and I don't think Jobs fully realises it. Having a headstart does not guarantee you the upper hand long term, and they don't even have that outside the US. Apple had a monopoly on the Desktop once, but their overpricing and refusal to license cost them that.

rodnarms
Apr 17, 2004, 10:25 AM
I did some investigating.

Dear Rodney:

Thank you for posting a question to the CMRRA web site
(http://www.cmrra.ca).

We are as frustrated as you with the fact that iTunes Music Store (IMS)
isn't yet available in Canada. We would be delighted to see them here.

We are presently in negotiations with Apple to license IMS for activity in
Canada, and we hope those negotiations lead us to an agreement soon.
However, the launch date for IMS is entirely in Apple's hands. As well as
completing their agreement with us, they must also make licensing
arrangements for the use of the recordings they will distribute, establish
their infrastructure and billing system for Canada and develop a marketing
plans for Canada. I have no doubt that Apple is capable of completing all
of these tasks, but they are all prerequisites to launching IMS in Canada.

You might do well to convey your interest in IMS to Apple, as I'm sure they
would be interested in knowing that there's real demand for their product
in this market. However, as I noted above, the timing and manner of the IMS
launch in this country is entirely in Apple's hands.

Yours truly,

David Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

E-mail: dbasskin@cmrra.ca
Phone: (416) 926-1966, ext. 222


Hi Rodney,

Thanks for your email.

Unfortunately, I can't give you a concrete timeline because it's my
understanding that the launches of Mac-compatible iTunes' and other U.S.
based companies (i.e. MusicNet, Napster) in Canada are taking longer than
expected because of their need to iron out logistics like G.S.T. and
exchange rates, etc.

I do know that iTunes has approached the publishers and they're currently in
final negotiations so we should expect news of their launch here in the near
future. For further information, you should contact the publishers'
association, CMRRA (www.cmrra.ca).

Regards,

Jennifer Hardy
Manager of Administration & Communications
Canadian Recording Industry Association
890 Yonge Street, Suite 1200
Toronto, ON M4W 3P4
Tel: (416) 967-7272 ext. 105
Fax: (416) 967-9415
jhardy@cria.ca

pepita
Apr 17, 2004, 10:37 AM
The World doesn't need a European iTunes store. It needs a UK store, a French store, a German store etc etc. We could have been downloading legal music a long long time ago... sigh.

I highly doubt that would have taken less time and hassle (and money) to set up than one single European store...

pepita
Apr 17, 2004, 10:46 AM
Copyright laws are similar in most of the world as they are implementations of WIPO treaties.

It is the record companies who divide up distribution rights who are to blame.

Exactly...

I subscribed for the tryout period on emusic.com, and half of the albums I wanted to get were "not available outside the US due to licensing restriction". I'm not aware of licensing restrictions being imposed by anyone other than the record companies themselves.



How could anyone find a way to attribute music distribution issues to the EU is beyond me...

Anyway, this is good news, at least, they're saying something! I was starting to worry the silence meant there was no certainty it would even open at all :p

I only hope we get the same variety in the catalogue as the US store, at least. (Possibly even more varied by then!)

pepita
Apr 17, 2004, 10:52 AM
Actually, a representative of Apple Switzerland said in an interview earlier this year that iTMS was ready to be launched in Switzerland but Apple wanted to launch it in all European countries simultaneously. If they can't achieve that goal within next the few months, they should really reconsider their all-at-once strategy and get iTMS out of the door where it's ready.

Ok then, the solution is simple: abolish nations, discard national laws, close national parliaments, dissolve national hq of record companies as well as national labels, and have Steve Jobs as our one and only super euroman dictator, just so Apple can open the iTunes Music Store simulsupertaneously in all former-countries of the new European Nation!

Yeah!

I mean, it'd be surely worth it, right? :p

NOV
Apr 17, 2004, 12:01 PM
I only know it's really frustrating to be able to listen to previews and not being able to buy anything :(

Especially when it seems to be possible for other companies to launch their music download services.

Vonnie
Apr 17, 2004, 06:48 PM
Not too long ago, there was an experiment here in belgium. A music download store, with only a few (belgian) songs. Encoded in OGG Vorbis and MP3 (you could pick which one you wanted), it had no DRM, so you could do with it what you wanted. (It had a watermark though, so if it would end up on kazaa, they could track you down).

They wanted to see if it had success, and if so they would turn the experiment in a store. Well, it had success, but they stopped the experiment. Why? Because the music labels got greedy. They wanted more money, eventhough it is normal you give a discount to new music formats.

Example, when we went from tape to CD, the CD itself was allot more expensive so they reduced the price of the music license itself. Later on, you could make CDs cheaper, and increase the music license price again.

The music labels here didn't want to do the same for the online music downloads though. (Eventhough you have basically the same "setup" costs as you had with cd's).

I am betting that the same thing is happening with Apple in Europe, Canada, Australia, well the rest of the world. Music labels see the success in the US and they raised the price. Heck, they are already talking about increasing the price of a song to 3$ in the US.

I don't believe for a second that european/canadian/asian/australian laws are holding back the introduction of the music stores. I mean, if it was available in canada, mexico, australia, japan, but not in europe, then yes, it is probably because of european laws. But I seriously doubt that the entire world except for the US has laws that prevent the introduction of an online music store. No, it's just the typical greed of the music labels.

But Europe does make for an easy target. Heck, most local politicians blame everything on Europe when something goes wrong. Taxes? Oh that's because of Europe. New ****ed up laws? Yeah, Europe.. Your dog bit you in the ass? You guessed it.. Europe :-)

whocares
Apr 18, 2004, 03:03 AM
(...)

But Europe does make for an easy target. Heck, most local politicians blame everything on Europe when something goes wrong. Taxes? Oh that's because of Europe. New ****ed up laws? Yeah, Europe.. Your dog bit you in the ass? You guessed it.. Europe :-)

So true! :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I agree with you, the music industry is being way to greedy in Europe. And if songs were to go up to $3, then iTMS would be heading straight down the drain...

plonk420
Apr 18, 2004, 04:59 AM
UGH.

this licensing BS royally IRKS me. i'd buy the Popstar single from Sita (dutch popstar) for 99 cents here in the US, hell, maybe even $1.50, but because of all the corporations fighting over money, the artist gets screwed, i can't buy the single i'm actually willing to pay for, so i'll end up downloading the MP3 Scene release that sounds just as good, maybe ever so slightly better (IIRC, this release still uses the old but good 192CBR Stereo bitrate). i'm out of money to get the single off ebay or amazon, however i could prolly go without a 99 cent Wendy's Ceasar Side Salad and make a musical impulse purchase, but, i guess i can't.

plonk420
Apr 18, 2004, 05:01 AM
Ok then, the solution is simple: abolish nations, discard national laws, close national parliaments

and, as Bulworth said, let's all screw until everyone's the same color ^_^

hob
Apr 18, 2004, 06:37 AM
...just so Apple can open the iTunes Music Store simulsupertaneously in all former-countries of the new European Nation!

Simulsupertaneously is the BEST word I've EVER read on these boards :D

xy14
Apr 18, 2004, 06:22 PM
What about Canada? You know, that place up north? We've had a (PC only) music download service operating since last fall, what's the hold up here?

If they are going to have a Europe-wide site as well as a US site, why couldn't they just expand the current US site to itunes North America?

There were rumors of discussions going on last year, but it's been pretty quiet lately.
I know that some judge in Canada made downloading music off of file sharing networks legal as long as you do not upload them. If you are interested, you can download my favorite file sharing program, Poisoned. (http://gottsilla.net)

telecomm
Apr 18, 2004, 07:21 PM
I know that some judge in Canada made downloading music off of file sharing networks legal as long as you do not upload them.[/URL]

Right, but that's an option who's days are numbered. At the Juno awards, the Heritage Minister promised the music industry that copyright laws would be changed, and, of course, that ruling is being appealed.

It's not like I'm having a hard time finding music, it's just that the itunes music store is one more option that I'd like to have available to me, and it's starting to look more and more like apple's responsible for holding up the show in Canada, waiting for all of Europe to get sorted out. (See rodnarms's post above.)
music downloading (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/TechNews/2004/04/12/418173.html)