Microsoft Releases Second 'Laptop Hunters' Commercial

[Apple Genius]

So why on these very forums have you made comments such as Apple employing illegal immigrants, Apple users all being arrogant etc, running down macos stability and Apple build quality without a scrap of evidence for any of them except your opinion.

Because opinions are the new evidence dude. Look bro, my homie, my ace, this ain't court. No one's gonna win jack ****.
I say Acer is the greatest laptop EVER and it is. You know why it is, my home skillet? I'll tell you why...


























http://www.webontario.com/fighting/stonecold_steveaustin/steveaustinlogo.jpg

[Rob0711]

haha. the whole thread reminds me so much of the 90´s when the actual bashing was going on. though this is a lame shadow of it :) which again reminds me of that ms ad campaign. but well. that seem to be the signs of the times. after all a new windows version is coming up :eek: duck and cover boys and girls. duck and cover

[DMann]

haha. the whole thread reminds me so much of the 90´s when the actual bashing was going on. though this is a lame shadow of it :) which again reminds me of that ms ad campaign. but well. that seem to be the signs of the times. after all a new windows version is coming up :eek: duck and cover boys and girls. duck and cover

7 up - watch it fizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[mosx]

Uh huh. Google "iPod overpriced." Apple haters have been whining about iPod prices since Day One. Then Microsoft jumps into the fray, prices their players the same as equivalent iPods, and the Winbots stop their yammering and crawl back into their holes.

Only fans of cheap Chinese players ever complained about iPod prices.

Other players generally start out with prices similar to Apples and go down from there.

You think MS isn't bothered that Apple makes many multiples of $$$ for every computer they sell compared to what Microsoft makes on every machine they manage to foist an OEM copy of Windows on?

You really think Microsoft really cares about how much money Apple makes on one system sold when Microsoft's OS is on more than ten times as many units? You really think Microsoft cares that Apple makes a bit more of a profit on one system than MS does on their OS, when, in the short time Vista has been available, more than 10 as many people are using it than there are Mac users total? Not to mention the tens of millions of units XP still sells, on top of other Microsoft software, like Office.

You think MS isn't bothered that people consider them merely an evil necessity; a boorish, imagination-less company that's flopped on pretty much everything they've tried aside from tying your dad's spreadsheet app to your family computer's OS and shoving them both down the world's throats?

You think MS isn't bothered that kids (i.e. "future customers") look at you as the tech world doofus? The social equivalent of wearing your dad's plaid slacks to the prom?

You see, theres one big flaw with your argument. You're part of an extremely vocal, yet extremely small minority. You seem to forget that what you and other people in your small minority say on message boards such as theses does not reflect how people in the real world, or even at more populated forums think. Honestly, if you tried your anti-Microsoft speech over at a forum like AVS, Head-fi, Futuremark, or other places populated with knowledgeable people and those who reflect real world users, you'd get laughed off about as fast as you started posting.

You seem to forget that Apple plays itself off as a vanity brand. As part of that, Apple ignores virtually every emerging market, where all of the true "future customers" are and Microsoft is already in deep in those markets and doing everything they can to make sure their platform is the dominant one. Yet Apple avoids those markets because those customers can't afford to pay their prices and have no interest in vanity computers anyway.

You speak of "kids" as being "future customers".. But you're forgetting something. These so-called "kids" like to play games. What platform let's them play games? Ah, Windows. Some of these people might buy into the fact that Macs can run Windows. But what happens when they see their friend's $1,299 Asus running circles around the MacBook Pro they just bought that cost twice as much? Thats right, they're going to switch back to Windows.

What about "real" people who are currently customers? Even if they feel Apple is superior, they refuse to spend so much money on a computer. My sister is a good case in point argument here. She needed a new computer. Could have afford any Mac up to $2,000. What'd she buy? A full computer set that was on sale at Walmart during Black Friday a year ago and upgraded the RAM. I asked her why she didn't get a Mac. "This computer does everything I need it and cost more than $1,000 less than the Mac I would have bought."

No matter what Apple or the Apple fanboys say, money talks.

Again, you and the rest of the anti-MS crowd are a very small and overly vocal minority. If everything your crowd said was to be believed, Vista would take 30 minutes to boot every time, crash multiple times daily, get viruses by simply opening a browser, and throw up blue screens left and right. Not only that, but nobody would own an Xbox360 (current true "next generation" market leader), and Apple's sales would be through the roof. In reality though, sales of Microsoft products and products that ship with/rely on Microsoft are going up steadily and projected to grow even more, by the hundreds of millions as the next few years pass. All while Apple's marketshare is in the very low single digits worldwide and very unreliable in the US as far as growth goes. Sometimes it grows good, sometimes it shrinks just as much.

And the desperation of their followers shows everywhere you look - from the Engadget comments board of every Apple related story to the MacRumors site, where the trolls wail and gnash their teeth.

Oh yes, Microsoft's followers are "desperate". Thats why nobody said a peep about Apple's misleading and outright false "Get a Mac" campaign, yet when Microsoft airs ads that are completely and brutally honest about Apple's pricing, Apple fanboys are out in full force on every forum they can be on, spreading FUD about Microsoft. The only time you see Microsoft followers out is when the Apple fanboys are out spreading FUD. Microsoft users are out quashing the lies and making sure the truth is known, to control the Apple fanboy FUD rampages.

It is hilarious that you say Microsoft and the Microsoft "followers" are getting desperate though. That Microsoft's "Empire" will fall. I hate to break it to you, but Apple's marketshare worldwide is what? It's between 2.4% to 3% depending on which numbers you go buy. Likewise, Microsoft's marketshare is what worldwide? Roughly 90% depending on the numbers you read. Yeah, think about that for a minute. You're looking at 3% versus 90%. Thats sort of like a small ant going up against a human wearing shoes. Who do you think will prevail?

I also want to point out the fact that the whole "Macs in schools mean future Mac users!" argument doesn't work. I had Macs all throughout elementary, middle, and high school. I didn't buy my own Mac until I had been out of high school for many years. Not only that, but what do those in school do? They use a Mac at school and go home to a PC. And contrary to popular belief, most kids don't like school and things associated with school are bad in their eyes. Think about that too.

Apparently, MS seems determined to reverse the direction of their slow and gradual decline.

What decline? Sales of computers running Windows are UP worldwide. Especially in emerging markets that Apple has chosen to outright ignore.

On the other hand, Snow Leopard does look promising, performance wise, to the extent that it may actually render arguments which claim that Macs have "underpowered hardware" no longer applicable, as machines with comparable specs running SL may indeed outperform those running W7.

How so? OpenCL? Similar technology already exists in Windows, OpenCL is cross-platform, and MS is building similar technology into DirectX.

"Grand Central"? All that does is make it easier for incompetent developers to write multi-threaded apps. Don't forget that Windows had multi-core/processor support BEFORE Mac OS did, and that multiple processors have been standard fare in Windows PCs for awhile, not just the "high end" market either. Plus multi-processor systems were very easily available in the 90s.

Although it's been said that iMac 3.06 is a laptop on a stand, it performs well enough to mix and bounce several heavily plugged and layered tracks simultaneously using Logic Pro, in some ways more efficiently than did a dual G5.

Maybe because the Core 2 Duo at 3.06GHz, even the mobile version, is considerably faster than a PowerPC processor? The power of the PPC line was greatly over exaggerated by Apple and never lived up to the hype it received.

It actually keeps up with the 8 core with some tasks - of course, this will likely change once SL is released. All in all, the iMac is not badly priced for a high performance laptop with a 24"screen.

Maybe because most apps are still single threaded? More multi-threaded apps exist in Windows than in OS X. It's a sad thing if OS X developers have to wait for Apple to spoon feed them easy ways to make multi-threaded apps before they actually do it, when Windows developers have been doing it for many years now...

The iMac is poorly priced. It's a "desktop" computer according to Apple. If it were to truly compete against desktops, it would not be able to stand up against PCs costing half as much that are more than twice as powerful with better screens.

So why on these very forums have you made comments such as Apple employing illegal immigrants

Actually, no. Don't take what I said out of context. The comments were made that when you call AppleCare you get someone in the US who speaks fluent English. I made the point that half of the time I've called AppleCare, I've spoken to someone with a very thick accent that was obviously not a US native which made me question who they hired.

Apple users all being arrogant etc

Some, not all. And many of the posts in this thread by the Apple fanboys prove that point.

running down macos stability and Apple build quality without a scrap of evidence for any of them except your opinion.

You know, its funny you say "without a scrap of evidence" when you yourself posted in my thread where I posted pictures of my MacBook that had cracked due to poor build quality.

In fact when presented with real evidence that shows for example that Apple leads HP and Dell (especially HP) in customer satisfaction and build quality of their products - it is actually you that buries his head in the sand.

No, I pointed out the FACT that Apple's computers are largely sold to a small and loyal fanbase that will say they are happy regardless of the situation. I also pointed out the numerous posts at this very forum that back up that statement. Go ahead and look for yourself. You'll find plenty of people here who are still satisfied with Apple despite the fact that they had to send their system in for repairs multiple times in a row. You'll find posters who had to have the motherboards in their Macs replaced numerous times and Apple never offered a replacement system. Yet those posters are still satisfied with Apple because its Apple and not running Windows.

Apple leads customer satisfaction because of the comparatively small user base that is incredibly loyal. You have to keep in mind that Dell or HP sell more computers in one year than Apple has total users. When you're selling so many more products you're bound to run into more unhappy people. Plus with PCs you don't have the loyalty to brand that you have with Apple. If HP treats someone the way Apple treats a loyal customer, that person that was treated poorly by HP is going to go off and rant to as many people as possible. While that Apple customer is still going to follow the Apple crowd and proclaim their happiness, despite the poor treatment, because it's Apple and Apple is simply better!

But it's not like these forums haven't seen you presenting your single experience and opinion as fact before.
By mixing up opinion as fact you are guilty of spreading the very FUD that you say you are here to prevent MacFanBoys doing about Windows.

A single experience huh? Thats funny, because I thought I was on my THIRD Mac now due to Apple's poor build quality and I had used multiple versions of OS X in the course of my owning a Mac. On top of that, all but now ONE of the Mac users I've known over the years has switched back to Windows.

In fact why did you keep the MacBook - the money you would have got for it as a brand new untouched machine would have bought you the ultimate HP (IYO) - yet you kept it. Do you feel that actually owning a Mac, justifies your unsubstantiated posts on these boards.

Again, its funny you say "unsubstantiated" because you yourself saw the pictures of my MacBook suffering from Apple's poor build quality. And, again, everything I've said about Apple's build quality, Apple's customer loyalty, etc. can be backed up by reading posts at this forum.

Why did I keep my Mac? Well, because people online who wanted to buy it wanted me to send it out COD. Hah! Locally, the economy has gone to hell and nobody in Southern California, in their right mind, would buy a used system at the price that Apple fans think its worth. And I sure wasn't going to lose money when I felt that the experience I had was not even partially worth the $1406 the first purchase had originally cost me. The only way I'll part with it is if A) I get a good price on a used sale or B) I keep it and run it into the ground, which is probably what I'll do. I probably won't upgrade to Snow Leopard. But you can bet that I'll have Windows 7 on it. XP is already my default OS on this system.

[Rob0711]

ah well :) i jump out of this discussion :) far too sunny to spend my breaks on the machine :)

[diamond.g]

I guess my question in all of this is, if Microsoft is so bad then why do folks here support them?

Everyone that buys Snow Leopard and/or iPhone (iPod Touch) is basically supporting the thing they hate. Microsoft doesn't just give out ActiveSync for free...

Nor do they just give out Exchange licenses for free...

[polaris20]

In honor of Mosx, I'll do his favorite posting style: The Multi-Quote

So why on these very forums have you made comments such as Apple employing illegal immigrants, Apple users all being arrogant etc, running down macos stability and Apple build quality without a scrap of evidence for any of them except your opinion. In fact when presented with real evidence that shows for example that Apple leads HP and Dell (especially HP) in customer satisfaction and build quality of their products - it is actually you that buries his head in the sand.

Please don't confuse customer satisfaction studies with fact! Mosx had 2 broken laptops! 2 > *

But it's not like these forums haven't seen you presenting your single experience and opinion as fact before.
By mixing up opinion as fact you are guilty of spreading the very FUD that you say you are here to prevent MacFanBoys doing about Windows.

In fact why did you keep the MacBook - the money you would have got for it as a brand new untouched machine would have bought you the ultimate HP (IYO) - yet you kept it. Do you feel that actually owning a Mac, justifies your unsubstantiated posts on these boards.

Apple fanboyism is Apple fanboyism. Microsoft fanboyism is defending the faith against evildoers spreading FUD.

And didn't ya know? We're done with facts and truth on this board. Instead we'll be using opinions and personal anecdotes (however severely limited) as their replacements. Don't worry, we'll still call them facts and truth, so as not to confuse the general population.

And you don't think our dear friend would stop coming here if he no longer had a Mac, do you? Of course he would! He's got to fight the good fight!

[KnightWRX]

It should be obvious - all-in-ones don't sell if people have the option of a mini-tower and separate monitor !!!

Uh, so wait, the iMac wasn't a huge success ?

[KnightWRX]

Heh, are you kidding? The Cell is a joke of a processor. It has one PPC core with a bunch co-processors tacked on for good measure.

Don't forget both the Cell and Xbox360 run at 3.2GHz. If they were so much more powerful than the Core 2 line, why would PC game ports of the same games have much lower clock speed requirements? PS3 games ported to the PC generally run better on a PC with a dual-core Athlon or Pentium D combined with a GeForce 8 card than they do on the PS3.

Just this comment here shows your complete lack of knowledge about the POWER architecture and what it is used for. You think those kid toys that are the consoles are the only thing using it ? No, they're simply used to offer volume and lower R&D margins on shipped processors.

The POWER architecture is used today in most big computation solutions, in scientific arenas. It is perfect for that task, moreso than ia-32 and x86-64. If you really think Athlon's are the pinacle of processor design and power, you're again just spouting anecdotes and opinion as fact, which is why you are labelled a troll around these parts.

Go to ibm.com and read up on POWER.

[KnightWRX]

And didn't ya know? We're done with facts and truth on this board. Instead we'll be using opinions and personal anecdotes (however severely limited) as their replacements. Don't worry, we'll still call them facts and truth, so as not to confuse the general population.

Heck, from the invasion of Microsofties we've had since these commercial started to air, you'd think Microsoft was trying to turn this site into MSrumors. Anyway, that's what these guys are peddling, a rumor that Microsoft is good and that they make good products.

Don't think it can't happen, it happened to Slashdot! You can't even begin to discuss anything about Linux there anymore, even in stories about Linux, without some trolls showing up to remind everyone how much better Vista is than Linux, completely ignoring the fact that no one was even remotely talking about consumer desktop OSes before they came.

[-hh]

Egads...miss a couple of days and BOOM! 50 more pages.

No what I'm saying is suck it up and stop acting like 7 lbs. is going to kill you.

The problem is that all weights are relative ... to each other. 6lbs is less than 7lbs and is thus 'more portable'.


I dont think batt life is not as important as you think, 2 and half hour is good enough for me...

Ditto for battery life: when all other factors are equal, "more is better".

Personally, I was on two 5hr coast-to-coast flights last week, so a ~2.5hr battery life would have only lasted for half of each flight, which hinders utility/productivity. Also, those battery life ratings are the 'brand new' ones: what do you think its battery life is really going to be a year from now?

What a bunch of pussys. I carried 20 pounds of books all day in college.

With the US Military, there's a saying:

"80lbs of lightweight gear is still 80lbs"

And they're currently spending Billions of your taxpayer dollars trying to shave 10lbs off of that. What do they know that you don't?


-hh

[-hh]

It does seem that the majority of people who favor Macs have experienced the Windows platform on PCs long enough to appreciate the upgrade to the Mac platform.

Fundamentally, the pattern seems to be that their experience with Windows has been so unsatisfactory that they've gotten fed up with it, and they're willing to pay to get away from it. As such, the first tier of Mac customers aren't really desiring Macs, but are desiring a "Not Windows" product.


...unless you need 64-bit Photoshop - sorry, not on Apples, only on Windows.

Since when have new features ever been delivered to all OS platforms simultaneously?

The reality is that leapfrogging occurs constantly: for example, Apple just got the new Xeon chips out to market before any Windows PC manufacturers did.

Mac Photoshop CS5 is expected to have 64 bit and is expected in early '10, which means that Adobe will have 6-9 months after Snow Leopard goes golden master to work out any remaining bugs...and probably some OpenCL goodness. Thus it will be Adobe/Mac's turn to be ahead for awhile in the leapfrog game...won't last forever, since it never does.


Too many choices can be bad. See The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice:_Why_More_Is_Less) by Barry Schwartz for more details.

Glad you mentioned this, although the individuals who really need to read it probably still won't (I've mentioned Schwartz's book before).


Maybe because the mid-range desktop is dying ? Maybe, just maybe, computer sales are divided into low-end e-mail/office/chat systems and high-end professional/gaming systems ? Maybe there just isn't that much of a mid-range market left and the competition for it is fierce ?

Do you have industry sales figures to back up that conjecture?

I didn't think so.

He might not have, but I did. And the business case has all been outlined before; check the archives (you'll even find your comments on them, too):


In brief summary, 70% of Mac sales are laptops (and growing).

Apple is merely ahead of where the rest of the PC market is going: in December 2008, it was reported that Windows has now also crossed the "50% laptops" threshold.

For Apple, the remaining 30% is divided amongst its desktop line, which consists of the mini, the 20" iMac, the 24" iMac, and the Mac Pro....evenly split at 1/4 each, this means each gets only 7.5% of all Mac sales.

Adding a 5th desktop (xMac) will result in some new sales but also some cannibalization of sales. Assuming even splits still and only 50% cannibalization, it means that the current 4 models will suffer a 10% drop in sales as it makes room for the xMac, which will increase their manufacturing cost by 5%, which has to either be eaten by a decrease in profitability or an increase in their retail price.

The bump up in sales from the new desktop xMac will provide roughly a 10% gain on desktop sales...which in the bigger picture will probably merely delay the current trend's decline by roughly 2-3 months.


(interesting chart)

Interesting, but only to a degree: the inference is that the desktop decline is predominantly due to the economy, and while this is projecting a recovery starting in 2010, the key take-away is that in 2013, the sales of desktops will still be 7% lower than 2008...and at the slow 2-3% rate of growth, it will be 2015 or later until it will be back to parity. Unfortunately, the broader reality is that sales projections for this far out are invariably 70% guesswork based on broad assumptions.

And while 130 million does sound promising, that's the worldwide market, whereas Apple's strengths are the USA (and IIRC, Japan): you'll notice that the future projections for desktops in the USA market drop from 34M to 29M in 2009, then continue to decline all the way out through 2013, to 23M ... a 33% decline projection vs 2008 numbers, and a 20% decline below what is expected for 2009.


FWIW, there was also the point that a lack of new models at Apple was responsible for their downturn. Sure, and with the new desktop models in March, we will shortly learn just what the level of significance is of that factor. I got a case of Belgian beer that says that it won't be enough to change the 70%-30% back to a 50%-50% sales equity for even one sales quarter...any takers?


-hh

[Wikinerd]

maybe MS gets a cut from HP advertising HP in their ads lol

I might be a bit late, but MS only advertises HP because Dell is known for being disloyal, seen from their famous switch to give users the option for Linux. Sony also happens to be a competitor of MS (XBox vs PS3). Asus and Acer is simply not famous enough for the average joe to recognize.

... It seems that MS is running out of "loyal" manufacturers...

[Anuba]

Heck, from the invasion of Microsofties we've had since these commercial started to air
"Invasion", sure. Why it's a veritable stampede!

I count two dual-platform users who defend Windows to (X) degree... mosx and yours truly. That's, what, a ratio of 100:1? 200:1?

We can't really help that this is a sensitive stuff to the Mac faithful, that these MS ads represent to them what the Muhammad drawings represented to Muslims.

[KnightWRX]

"Invasion", sure. Why it's a veritable stampede!

I count two dual-platform users who defend Windows to (X) degree... mosx and yours truly. That's, what, a ratio of 100:1? 200:1?

We can't really help that this is a sensitive stuff to the Mac faithful, that these MS ads represent to them what the Muhammad drawings represented to Muslims.

Let's look at number of posts instead of just number of trolls. What's the Pro-Microsoft to Pro-Apple post ratio in this thread ? You having the highest number of posts by quite a margin...

[AidenShaw]

Originally Posted by AidenShaw
It should be obvious - all-in-ones don't sell if people have the option of a mini-tower and separate monitor !!!

Which is why HP, Dell, and Sony feel compelled to offer all-in-ones, right?

And how many HP, Dell and Sony all-in-ones have you seen in the wild?

The difference is that other vendors add an all-in-one to the lineup for the minority of customers who might like them - not because of an almost religious zeal that an all-in-one is the right form factor for a desktop.

Sony's an odd case, but they're mainly a consumer gadget manufacturer, not a computer maker. (Hmmm. See the parallel?)

[Rob0711]

well the thread started with people talking about the spot being bad at best, not about what you or anyone should use. and if there are people wo like this style of advertising i guess they get what they deserve. some forum marketing guys (and the people unconsciously following their lead) using these forums as an advertising forum is a completely different matter. and actually bad style advertising from a moral point of view (and no i don´t want to start a thread on advertising ethics) besides just wasting time since the people here actually use these machines. and i like many others have a far better experience than i ever had on a microsoft os. that´s no religion. that´s just fact. and being atheist the whole mac religion stuff makes me rofl either way. i´d say if you don´t like osx. start winrumors. i have nothing about a debate. but this is ridiculous and this thread has already moved from comparing apples to rotten tomatoes to car/truck analogies... seems like the .net worshippers are the religious ones :)

edit: and no. no punch to any believer out there intended.

[Chappers]

In honor of Mosx, I'll do his favorite posting style: The Multi-Quote



Please don't confuse customer satisfaction studies with fact! Mosx had 2 broken laptops! 2 > * I was forgetting his single user experience of 2 damaged laptops proves his point. And because I saw the pictures of one of them - even more proves his point. Not forgetting all customers of Apple instantly become fanboys on buying Macs, although that doesn't explain why the beloved HP is loosing ratings points.


And you don't think our dear friend would stop coming here if he no longer had a Mac, do you? Of course he would! He's got to fight the good fight! Of course not - I just wish I had as much time as him to write such epic replies. I did have enough time however to find this totally biased poll that rated HP extremely badly. Its all lies of course.

[AidenShaw]

The reality is that leapfrogging occurs constantly: for example, Apple just got the new Xeon chips out to market before any Windows PC manufacturers did.

And Compaq introduced DVD burners a week before Apple. Big deal.

Other than fueling the vanity of the Apple Cult, there's no real advantage to Apple getting chip X announced a couple of weeks before other makers.

Intel's chip was known - it was reviewed in many places, it was known that the last week in March was the formal announcement, and the single socket version of the chip (Core i7) was already available from other companies.

A couple of weeks isn't a "leapfrog", it's a rounding error.


Mac Photoshop CS5 is expected to have 64 bit and is expected in early '10, which means that Adobe will have 6-9 months after Snow Leopard goes golden master to work out any remaining bugs...and probably some OpenCL goodness. Thus it will be Adobe/Mac's turn to be ahead for awhile in the leapfrog game...won't last forever, since it never does.

"Ahead". Don't you mean that Apple will stop being behind?

Unlike a few weeks head start with a chip, Apple will be a year and a half behind on 64-bit.

And, as far as the OpenCL hype goes, you did realize that Photoshop, Premiere and AfterEffects are *already* GPU-accelerated on Windows?
http://www.nvidia.com/object/builtforadobepros.html
http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_home.html


For Apple, the remaining 30% is divided amongst its desktop line, which consists of the mini, the 20" iMac, the 24" iMac, and the Mac Pro....evenly split at 1/4 each, this means each gets only 7.5% of all Mac sales.

Please cite your sources for these statistics.


Adding a 5th desktop (xMac) will result in some new sales but also some cannibalization of sales. Assuming even splits still and only 50% cannibalization, it means that the current 4 models will suffer a 10% drop in sales as it makes room for the xMac, which will increase their manufacturing cost by 5%, which has to either be eaten by a decrease in profitability or an increase in their retail price.

Pure fiction.


The bump up in sales from the new desktop xMac will provide roughly a 10% gain on desktop sales...which in the bigger picture will probably merely delay the current trend's decline by roughly 2-3 months.

More speculation.


I got a case of Belgian beer that says that it won't be enough to change the 70%-30% back to a 50%-50% sales equity for even one sales quarter...any takers?

Whatever gave you the idea that "success" of the Apple quad-core mini-tower means a return to a 50-50 split?

It goes back to the swings/carousels concept from Sweden(Anuba). Many people are not switching because none of the desktops are practical for them. Give them an affordable mini-tower, and over time they'll probably buy Apple laptops and laptops-on-a-stick.

It's the mini-tower Halo effect.

[BenRoethig]

Let's look at number of posts instead of just number of trolls. What's the Pro-Microsoft to Pro-Apple post ratio in this thread ? You having the highest number of posts by quite a margin...

If you count pro Microsoft as what, anything that doesn't paint Apple as a perfect Godlike entity that knows what's good for everyone and is incapable of making mistakes. Apple is a great company, but they have many flaws and biases. Their product lineup has many holes because of those biases and flaws that Microsoft is taking advantage of. Those of us who view our Macs as a tool and not as part of some Holy War against everything non-Apple can see that. They're doing good, but they could be doing better.

[KnightWRX]

Pure fiction.

More speculation.

And you guys saying Apple will die if they don't sell you a xMac aren't spouting pure fiction and speculation. You saying the iMac isn't a huge sales success and that people don't want or buy all-in-ones isn't speculation.

It's funny how you guys are allowed to spout your opinions as fact, but that is not allowed of people that disagree with you :rolleyes:.

If you count pro Microsoft as what, anything that doesn't paint Apple as a perfect Godlike entity that knows what's good for everyone and is incapable of making mistakes. Apple is a great company, but they have many flaws and biases. Their product lineup has many holes because of those biases and flaws that Microsoft is taking advantage of. Those of us who view our Macs as a tool and not as part of some Holy War against everything non-Apple can see that. They're doing good, but they could be doing better.

Or they could be doing worse. There's a reason some of the guys in this thread that criticize Apple are doing it from their homes and not from the board room.

[LagunaSol]

And how many HP, Dell and Sony all-in-ones have you seen in the wild?

One doesn't typically see a desktop computer "in the wild." And I don't wander though strangers' homes to check out their PC setups very often.

Oh, and guess how many Zunes I've seen in the wild? ONE. Yet Microsoft keeps making them. And trying to sell them.

[4D4M]

I'm here for two reasons. One being to counter the FUD spread about Windows. Second reason being to help new users who are thinking about buying a Mac see the truth about the whole "Apple Experience" and make a proper and well informed decision based on reality and not one sided blindness that Apple apologists tend to suffer from.

So what you're saying is, your mission is to stop people from buying Macs and steer them towards Windows. This is fascinating, for the same reason that the MS commercials are.

5 years ago any employee of Microsoft would have laughed at the thought of Apple being a threat, or even a competitor. Apple was nothing more than a tiny 2% market share player that wouldn't even license its OS to any other manufacturer. No threat at all.

I can't really see what's changed. Sure, Apple's market share has increased slightly, but not a lot. Why is MS suddenly making commercials like this, backed by legions of people like you? I would have thought Linux is more of a threat. It would only take a great marketeer like Jobs to come along with a polished distro. The world is ready to give up Microsoft.

Maybe its just that they're running scared and are trying to fight fires from all angles, because Vista is such a disaster.

How is Microsoft making the Mac seem more "cool" and "exclusive" with these ads? If anything they're pointing out the cold hard fact that the Mac brand is a vanity brand and you don't get what you pay for.

That one has been covered 10 times over on this discussion so I'm not going to dwell on it. Take out the word "don't" and you've pretty much answered your own question.

You get style, sure. But you don't get hardware up to spec with the price. Look at the MacBook Pro. It has specs that are about equal to a $900 PC (below in the case of the GPU). The case, size, and OS X are not worth the minimum $1,100 premium.

Definitely worth it to me, and seemingly to a lot of other people too, or you wouldn't be concerned with trying to tell people it isn't. My brand new MacBook Pro 17" running Leopard is putting a big smile on my face. (That smug Mac person's smile you really hate).

If you're expecting to be able to get a good amount of money for your MBP in two years, you're in for a harsh reality. Outside of the closed Mac communities, resale value of Macs has plummeted.

That is such utter crap, I don't know where to begin. My 2.5 year old MBP is on eBay at the moment, and its doing very nicely thank you, despite the recession. Lots of watchers, bids already. My friend sold his MB last week and was stunned by the price he got. His iMac is currently listed and is looking like it will exceed his expectations.

You may not like it, but there are lots of people out there who aspire to own a Mac, and there always will be. It is a "vanity brand" as you point out, and in two years time when I sell my new MPB, there will be no shortage of takers.

Sooner or later Apple's marketshare growth will stall (if it hasn't already, seeing as how it dropped last quarter)

Good, I hope it does. I want Apple to remain a profitable and financially healthy company, but I don't want them to increase their market share, because in order to do that they'd have to go for the high volume, low cost end of the market and build boring business boxes. And then they'd stop being the Apple I know and love.

Apple is a company that only cares about seeing how high they can push prices until their sales drop

Yes, they are a business run by greedy execs. Just like any other. I'm under no illusion.

[LagunaSol]

Other than fueling the vanity of the Apple Cult...

Your moronic generalizations reveal you for the bitter troll that you are.

But keep on fueling the Waah-I-Hate-Apple Cult (or the Sweaty Ballmer Is God Cult). It's your time. I suppose one has little else to do while his PC is busy running a spyware scan.

[Anuba]

Of course not - I just wish I had as much time as him to write such epic replies. I did have enough time however to find this totally biased poll that rated HP extremely badly. Its all lies of course.
The poll is probably not that far from the truth, although brand perception can sometimes screw up these reliability polls. Apple is like BMW, it's one of those brands that give some people a boner (which doesn't happen with HP or Toyota, as they make very unsexy products for the most part). And so there's a tendency to forgive and smooth over faults, just like some men will gladly smooth over a drop-dead gorgeous woman's complete absence of a brain.

BMW ranks very highly in satisfaction and reliability ratings, although they're actually quite mediocre reliability-wise and no match for Toyota. But some BMW owners will still insist that the reliability is great even after the wheels fall off and the engine explodes.

So, I would take these polls with a grain of salt. Not the whole salt shaker, but a grain.

[AidenShaw]

Originally Posted by AidenShaw
Other than fueling the vanity of the Apple Cult...

Your moronic generalizations reveal you for the bitter troll that you are.


Apparently you haven't noticed how many times any timing advantage that Apple gets is brought up in these boards....

And, I used "Cult" rather than "fanbois" - do you prefer "fanbois"? ;)

[KnightWRX]

The poll is probably not that far from the truth, although brand perception can sometimes screw up these reliability polls. Apple is like BMW, it's one of those brands that give some people a boner (which doesn't happen with HP or Toyota, as they make very unsexy products for the most part). And so there's a tendency to forgive and smooth over faults, just like some men will gladly smooth over a drop-dead gorgeous woman's complete absence of a brain.

BMW ranks very highly in satisfaction and reliability ratings, although they're actually quite mediocre reliability-wise and no match for Toyota. But some BMW owners will still insist that the reliability is great even after the wheels fall off and the engine explodes.

So, I would take these polls with a grain of salt. Not the whole salt shaker, but a grain.

Of course the poll wasn't about reliability, it was about build quality. Fit and finish on a BMW is spotless usually, not so much on a Toyota. Cheap plastics, rough edges, apparent welds, cheaper paint, no finishing trims.

Apparently you haven't noticed how many times any timing advantage that Apple gets is brought up in these boards....

And, I used "Cult" rather than "fanbois" - do you prefer "fanbois"? ;)

How about neither ? At this point, everybody that's still posting here is a fanboy of something or another. It's a useless insult thrown around in order to try to descredit the other camp. In a way, you're a midrange tower fanboy and you can't see that maybe, just maybe, those don't sell well anymore.

It's like you're in this xMac cult...

[LagunaSol]

It must drive some of these tools nuts that people spend good money on, say, a pair of jeans or a nice watch when a burlap sack and a sundial made from a stick in the dirt would do the job just fine.

It's hilarious that of all the manufacturers who make products for people to buy, even upscale products that are even more expensive, that it's Apple that earns the derision of these joyless two-bit hacks. Wouldn't you just love to wander through Anubus' or AidenShaw's place and point things out? I'm assuming their closets aren't filled with burlap and their cabinets aren't filled with Top Ramen.

"Wow, why did you buy that? You know you could have bought X brand cheaper, right?"

"Steaks in the refrigerator? Seriously??? Hamburger is, like, 1/6 the cost. What are you, a member of the Steak Cult? Idiot."

Sounds stupid, doesn't it. Yet here they are. Trying to derive some dollop of pleasure from doing exactly the same thing. I bet they're a real hit at parties.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Hmm, I suddenly have an ad idea for the Grade D Hamburger Manufacturers Association of America. "We gave Lauren $1 to buy lunch..."

[Prekesh]

Meh, these ads don't bother me.

If you want a windows machine, get one, if you want a Mac, get one. Don't moan about the price or whatever, you get what you pay for.

Personally, I've used loads of PC's over the past 7 years, and none of them come even close to how reliable my MacBook is, i won't go in detail but many of you know what i mean.

Mac's > PC's

although, i have to say, with this much attention these adverts are doing there job pretty well.

[LagunaSol]

But some BMW owners will still insist that the reliability is great even after the wheels fall off and the engine explodes.

Which I'm sure happens all the time. :rolleyes:

Seriously, man. We understand that you're bitter. Windows will do that to you. Step outside. Get a breath of fresh air. Go for a drive in your Corolla. Relieve some of that anxiety while you wait for the Redmond horde to figure things out. Windows 7 will fix everything. Just hold on...

[KnightWRX]

Sounds stupid, doesn't it. Yet here they are. Trying to derive some dollop of pleasure from doing exactly the same thing. I bet they're a real hit at parties.

Actually, I see these "but you can get X for cheaper" posts as just trying to push your own needs unto someone elses. Mosx obviously loves hand built, spare parts bin PCs on the cheap. He doesn't care about spending an afternoon trying to track down the exact part that just failed in order to RMA it to one of 10 different manufacturers that participated in his box. It is folly to think someone would rather just have to deal with 1 manufacturer who will do it all for free under warranty because he sold the entire thing to you. Time is of no value to this man and thus shouldn't be of value to anyone else.

Then there's the aidenshaw that insists people need a mid-range tower at all costs, that laptops or high-end workstations can't replace the mid-range tower and that it is a gaping hole. He ignores the fact that some people don't even have a desk and wouldn't know what to do with a fixed computer, or that the high-end workstation can still double as a e-mail/web/office machine.

Then there's Anuba, who basically.. hum... I don't quite get this guy. First it was 1999 ads in relation to a 2005 announcements. Because things don't change in 6 years. Then there's the "fact" that Apple doesn't ship you a box to return your Mac to Applecare, because he didn't get one after talking to 1 person, vs 300 other forum posters assuring him of the contrary. Finally, he goes on to say that yes, there are other things than raw power in life, it is the mid-range tower, but he doesn't need it, but Apple should sell it, because he doesn't need it.

...

And we're the fanboys and cult.

[Rob0711]

hmm actually i think they don´t (the ads). if there were over 2k posts talking about the and i´d give credit to the agency which made them. but this is a general mac vs. pc debate (and no debate since it´s pointless in the first place) but since most agencies love to present the steaming results their campaigns achieved this thread will be pushed on to eternity until the magic number of 3k posts (someeone said that number earlier) is reached so it can be put in a snug powerpoint presentation so the client will be happy to give them more money to make ads :) but since i don´t fund ms i don´t care.

[KnightWRX]

Which I'm sure happens all the time. :rolleyes:

Seriously, man. We understand that you're bitter. Windows will do that to you. Step outside. Get a breath of fresh air. Go for a drive in your Corolla. Relieve some of that anxiety while you wait for the Redmond horde to figure things out. Windows 7 will fix everything. Just hold on...

Windows 95 will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows 95 OSRB will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows 98 will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows 98 SE will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows ME will fix everything. Just hold on...

Windows NT 4.0 will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows 2000 will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows XP will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows Vista will fix everything and look pretty while doing it this time, honest. Just hold on...

It's the same BS story everytime there's a BETA release. All the MS fanbots are all over the thing, scream at how it's : stable, fast, slim, awesome looking. Then it ships... I've been stuck listening to them for the last 15 years. Heck, I was one of them, having participated in the Windows 98 Beta and finding it awesome. Funny how that turned out.

[BenRoethig]

And you guys saying Apple will die if they don't sell you a xMac aren't spouting pure fiction and speculation. You saying the iMac isn't a huge sales success and that people don't want or buy all-in-ones isn't speculation.

A) nobody has disputed that people will buy all in ones. They are great consumer machines, but they have their uses.
B) Apple desktop sales have degraded at a rate far beyond windows machines
C) Apple stopped reporting individual model sales a couple years back so its now impossible to know how a specific model is doing.
D) Towers did well not too long again against the predecessor to the current iMac which was comparatively more powerful and much easier to upgrade than the sealed laptop on a stick we have now.

It's funny how you guys are allowed to spout your opinions as fact, but that is not allowed of people that disagree with you :rolleyes:.

The difference here is that we recognize the great things Apple has done and what has happened before in similar times. You and your buddies in the unofficial Apple religious police do not allow for anything other than Apple is right good or bad, successful at the time or not.

Or they could be doing worse. There's a reason some of the guys in this thread that criticize Apple are doing it from their homes and not from the board room.

That is the kind of arrogance that brings down companies and allowed Apple to give back all that they gained during the original iMac boom shortly after. What do I see: a company who is hugely popular, dominating the PMP market (of which their entires have no holes) who can barely manage 10% of the U.S. market and 4% internationally. Given the popularity, this isn't a success, this is scrapping along bare minimum compared to what they could do.

[KnightWRX]

A) nobody has disputed that people will buy all in ones.

Actually, yes Aidenshaw did. 1 or 2 pages back. Hence why I commented on it.

Also note I don't defend Apple. I'm just saying that you guys want them to ship something, but they don't. They did before and decided not to. I'm just pointing out to you guys that there might be a reason that you backseat Marketers are missing and should probably think about. If that is Apple fanboyism, then so be it. I live in reality, and in reality, Apple dropped the mid-range tower market like a bad habit.

Also you might find it arrogant, but it's the same thing as fat slobs in their couch that are always criticizing the coach of their favorite sports franchise. Guess what, those guys wouldn't last 2 seconds as coaches. Same for the people in this thread, they probably wouldn't understand or be able to run niche business like Apple does and would probably be making a lot of the mistakes Apple already made and learned from long ago.

That's the problem with these arguments, they get polarised fast and people not in one camp get automatically thrown into the other, no matter where they actually sit as far as opinions go.

[BenRoethig]

How about neither ? At this point, everybody that's still posting here is a fanboy of something or another. It's a useless insult thrown around in order to try to descredit the other camp. In a way, you're a midrange tower fanboy and you can't see that maybe, just maybe, those don't sell well anymore.

Apple stopped selling them when they were selling, just like the eMac, the low end iMac, and the big screen iBook. The big difference between us and you is that we want Apple to do better. You're absolutely terrified of anything other than what Apple is doing at one minute. I'm guessing you're one of those who argued against the move to intel, the iPhone, the Macbook Air, etc. (which doesn't have a largest enough market to be worth their while either) until Apple introduced them.

[KnightWRX]

Apple stopped selling them when they were selling, just like the eMac, the low end iMac, and the big screen iBook. The big difference between us and you is that we want Apple to do better. You're absolutely terrified of anything other than what Apple is doing at one minute. I'm guessing you're one of those who argued against the move to intel, the iPhone, the Macbook Air, etc. (which doesn't have a largest enough market to be worth their while either) until Apple introduced them.

Wait, so you think Apple didn't have Apple's best interest in mind when dropping product lines and models ? So you're saying there's been management and shareholder incompetence and that you are a better fit to manage the company, having better insight ?

Do you also think that changing out that runningback during the last Cowboy's game was a big mistake, even though they did get that touch down ?

I didn't argue anything about the Intel switch, I even e-mailed all my Mac fanboys a big "I told you so". I'm not a super long time, Apple only user. I use Unix and Unix like systems. Mac OS X happens to be one of them. I used to laugh at OS 9 and destroy it every chance I got (yes, it was that bad).

[AidenShaw]

Originally Posted by BenRoethig
A) nobody has disputed that people will buy all in ones.

Actually, yes Aidenshaw did. 1 or 2 pages back. Hence why I commented on it.

HP and Dell make all-in-ones, yet sales are very low - those companies also make affordable towers (as well as laptops).

The Imac sells well, because there's no practical, affordable alternative.

[LagunaSol]

Microsoft (and its brainwashed followers) have now officially become your grandma.

"You paid how much for that thing??? Are you crazy? Why didn't you buy X instead? It's much more reasonably priced. Or better yet, why didn't you just keep your old one? It worked just fine. Why, when I was a girl..."

I'm a PC. Now get off my lawn, you damn kids with your stupid overpriced sneakers...

[Rob0711]

the funny thing is , i might be called a fanboy by some. but i´d never ever think about going to a ms fan site and try to convince people of my os being superior to theirs. or anything equivalent. actually that´s a brand new level of fanboyism. or fanatism ?

[KnightWRX]

The Imac sells well, because there's no practical, affordable alternative.

Again, you're ignoring the fact that for a long time (years) Apple sold the iMac and the cheap PowerMAC G3, then G4, then G5 at the same time.

the funny thing is , i might be called a fanboy by some. but i´d never ever think about going to a ms fan site and try to convince people of my os being superior to theirs. or anything equivalent. actually that´s a brand new level of fanboyism. or fanatism ?

Shill is what it's called :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

[BenRoethig]

Wait, so you think Apple didn't have Apple's best interest in mind when dropping product lines and models ?

The question is who definition of best interest?

So you're saying there's been management and shareholder incompetence
All of them were hand picked by Jobs.

and that you are a better fit to manage the company, having better insight ?

No, but someone else might be. Doesn't take a genius to recognize what Apple's doing right, but apparently it takes something extra these days to figure out they are incapable of doing something wrong. I would prefer it happens before we hand Redmond everything right back once again. Apple needs to take that next step for once instead of the usual cycle of success, arrogance, giving everything back, and hard times.

Again, you're ignoring the fact that for a long time (years) Apple sold the iMac and the cheap PowerMAC G3, then G4, then G5 at the same time.

And you're ignoring that they dumped the affordable towers because they were outselling the iMac

[AidenShaw]

Again, you're ignoring the fact that for a long time (years) Apple sold the iMac and the cheap PowerMAC G3, then G4, then G5 at the same time.

The entry B&W G3 was about 40% more expensive than the entry Imac.

[KnightWRX]

And you're ignoring that they dumped the affordable towers because they were outselling the iMac

That would be shareholder and management incompetence. I doubt a business would drop a successful and profitable product line to promote a less successful or profitable one. Apple is publicly traded and as such, must answer to shareholders and the SEC.

The entry B&W G3 was about 40% more expensive than the entry Imac.

Ok, so now Apple's mid-range offerings weren't cheap enough for you ? Are you sure you don't want a low-end tower too ?

[LagunaSol]

i´d never ever think about going to a ms fan site

There are MS fan sites??? :D

[Anuba]

Of course the poll wasn't about reliability, it was about build quality. Fit and finish on a BMW is spotless usually, not so much on a Toyota. Cheap plastics, rough edges, apparent welds, cheaper paint, no finishing trims.
Exactly. Which pretty much mirrors my experience with Dell vs. Apple. With Dell's consumer models you get cheap plastic, rough edges, and design that's somewhere between ugly and unremarkable, but for some inexplicable reason it all holds together fine. Macs on the other hand have perfect and spotless fit & finish, but then after some time you start reading stuff like...

"The hinges on the Titanium PowerBook display are notorious for breaking under typical use. Usually the hinge (which is shaped like an 'L') will break just to the left of where it attaches to the lower case on the right hinge, and just to the right on the left hinge (where the right hinge is on the right side of the computer when the optical drive is facing you)."

"Several MacBook Air users since the release of the first-generation product have complained of problems with severe overheating, causing CPU lockup. Users of the first revision are encountering issues where the plastic holding the right hinge cracks under normal use, making the notebook nearly unusable."
It's understandable though. Toyota Corolla is the best-selling car in history. When you sell in numbers like that it's much easier to detect reliability issues and address them. And there's also a greater chance that the manufacturer works his butt off to not allow any potential reliability issues in the first place, because it's one thing to do a recall of, say, 50,000 cars and a whole other story to have to recall 5,000,000 of them.

[LagunaSol]

Macs on the other hand have perfect and spotless fit & finish, but then after some time you start reading stuff like...

Hmm, my old Compaq laptop was a huge POS, but I don't remember reading any news stories about its flaws. How odd. Perhaps Mac buyers expect more and complain more loudly when those expectations are not met? Or maybe PCs are spread among such a huge range of makes and models that it's unlikely that any common flaw in any one model is going to get any significant attention? And perhaps Apple haters tend to focus a white hot spotlight on anything that validates their fear and loathing of all things from Cupertino?

The correct answer is D) All of the above.

Oh, BTW: reliability and customer satisfaction survey numbers seem to disprove your theory of Apple's mediocre hardware quality...

Toyota Corolla is the best-selling car in history.

The answer is clear. We should all be driving Corollas.

[polaris20]

If you count pro Microsoft as what, anything that doesn't paint Apple as a perfect Godlike entity that knows what's good for everyone and is incapable of making mistakes. Apple is a great company, but they have many flaws and biases. Their product lineup has many holes because of those biases and flaws that Microsoft is taking advantage of. Those of us who view our Macs as a tool and not as part of some Holy War against everything non-Apple can see that. They're doing good, but they could be doing better.

I've been critical of you in the past, but I agree with your post here.

I think being critical of Apple doesn't equal being pro-Microsoft, however continual bashing of OS X with anecdotal evidence based on 3 machines is ridiculous.

Then to say there's nothing wrong at all with Vista, and even that there was nothing wrong with Me, and you've got a diehard MS shill.

I agree with you that there are gaping holes in their product line-up, however while I remain cautiously optimistic, I doubt Apple will ever fill them.

[dejo]

And you're ignoring that they dumped the affordable towers because they were outselling the iMac
Where is your proof of this?

Because Apple has never released figures of "affordable" tower units shipped vs. iMacs. They have always lumped all the towers together, which includes the "less affordable" towers. Product Summary names have included "Power Mac G4" and "Power Mac" but never have separated models within those lines. And then for Q3 2005, they started breaking it down to just "Desktops" and "Portables".

http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q301data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q401data_sum.pdf

http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q102data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q202data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q302data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q402data_sum.pdf

http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q103data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q203data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q303data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q403data_sum.pdf

http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q104data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q204data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q304data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q404data_sum.pdf

http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q105data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q205data_sum.pdf
http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q305data_sum.pdf

[charlituna]

What's the point in having a $1,500 "desktop" PC with a 24" screen if it can't perform? The only way to get dedicated graphics in an iMac is to go up to $1,799. And then you're getting something thats considered mid-range. One could ask why even bother spending $1,499 on a "desktop" computer thats an all-in-one and doesn't perform as well as notebooks in the same price range, especially when you can build a significantly more powerful PC with a better screen (and one thats 16x9 rather than 16x10!) for several hundred less.. but thats another argument for another day..

You are asking why is Apple doing this but then not looking at it like Apple does. you want an answer coming from the viewpoint of someone that is a techno geek. a user that wants what he wants, the way he wants it, the price and parts he wants. that is NOT the person that the macbook, the mini or the imac was made for. You are who the Mac Pro is for, and maybe the MacBookPro (which has a few more upgrades than the Macbook if you order online)

The other 3 are for the regular user. The folks that don't need superfast, hyper charged graphics etc. Why has Apple downgraded the graphics in the mini and the imac you asked. because they weren't being used. I will bet my rent money for the month (and I live in LA so that's not chup change) that 95% of 20" and lower end 24" imacs have been going to folks that wanted to email, web surf, maybe use the webcam to talk to family, organize photos and sync my ipod. and perhaps some grade school lab leases. and that's pretty much it. the software, or lack of, bought with the machine, surveys done on buyers etc would tell them this. so Apple pulls back the parts cause the more expensive ones are needed. in some cases, ups the harddrive size or some other tradeoff. in others just adds the savings into the profit till (what you didn't know that Apple is trying to make lots of money. like every other business)

when you try to look at it from Apple's POV a lot of what they do makes a lot more sense. The power users are the ones that would build a hackintosh and not care that it's totally illegal and a violation of the EULA. but so long as they are doing it for personal use and not to make tons of money, Apple isn't likely to bark. it's only when folks like Pystar build a whole company out of it that it's an issue. So given this detail, why should they market everything to the power users. why should they strive to make that small group happy and maintain a tiny cut of the market when they can look to the other 98% of the folks out there. the ones that will buy into the fact that there's more to the cost than just the computers innards and buy a laptop for $1300 + tax to do basic tasks and let the kiddies play a few games.

Nah.. if it did work on them, Apple's US marketshare wouldn't have shrunk last quarter and it wouldn't be in the low single digits worldwide ;)

last report I saw was that the world market share was just under 10% and had gone down perhaps 1/2 of a percent.

why don't you illuminate us with a full time line of the numbers (with sources would be very nice).

Lets say I had an issue with service provided in an Apple store,

have you ever bought anything at an apple store, had something fixed, taken a class.

I have, or friends have, done all of these. and everything single time either on our paper receipt or on the email one, was an invitation to do a survey about the experience. One friend was really pissed off because he went to a workshop (he had reserved a space so they had his email) and it was just sitting there listening to someone 'blah on and on for an hour' and he said so on the survey. rated the whole thing pretty much a zero. He got a call the next day from the store's head trainer. Said she was real nice and listened to everything he had to say. Gave him an email address for the store and asked him to email her at that address if he had any other thoughts. This was about six months ago. Well perhaps 3 months later, he got an email from her to let him know that they had had lots of surveys that said the same thing so the company was going to test some new hands on workshops and they were a test store. The trainer personally asked my friend to come to one and let her know if it was an improvement over the other way.

I have had other friends and even myself go into stores and the staff were rude, too busy chatting with each other, couldn't answer what should have been a basic question and didn't even try to get the answer. Every time did the survey. every time got a call (not an email but a phone call) from the store in question.

you try that at Best Buy. You can hardly get a manager to come talk when you are there. And if you file a complaint you don't get a call back from the store in question, you rarely get anything.

[KnightWRX]

Why has Apple downgraded the graphics in the mini

When did they do this ?

[pr5owner]

The poll is probably not that far from the truth, although brand perception can sometimes screw up these reliability polls. Apple is like BMW, it's one of those brands that give some people a boner (which doesn't happen with HP or Toyota, as they make very unsexy products for the most part). And so there's a tendency to forgive and smooth over faults, just like some men will gladly smooth over a drop-dead gorgeous woman's complete absence of a brain.

BMW ranks very highly in satisfaction and reliability ratings, although they're actually quite mediocre reliability-wise and no match for Toyota. But some BMW owners will still insist that the reliability is great even after the wheels fall off and the engine explodes.

So, I would take these polls with a grain of salt. Not the whole salt shaker, but a grain.

the problem with car analogies is they dont work when you throw them up against computer manufactures as counterparts.

by that definition a BMW M3 will slaughter a corolla for 3x the price (meaning 3x the performance and its true in the real world with cars)

but in computer terms that M3 will get slaughterd by the corolla for half the price in ALL categories (handling, in car electronics, horsepower and torque, etc, etc)

Apple = BMW M3 = 120HP, seating for 3.5, 12" wheels, and no anti rol bars (handles like CRAP)

DIY PC = Corolla = 450HP, weighs nothing, seating for 30, 20" rims, 30mm antisway bar, racing suspension, and can fly with upgrades

[AidenShaw]

last report I saw was that the world market share was just under 10% and had gone down perhaps 1/2 of a percent.

It's way, way less than 10%

http://static.arstechnica.com/osx-share-ww.png

http://static.arstechnica.com/osx-share-sales.png


http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/02/mac-market-share.ars

[Trajectory]

the problem with car analogies is they dont work when you throw them up against computer manufactures as counterparts.

by that definition a BMW M3 will slaughter a corolla for 3x the price (meaning 3x the performance and its true in the real world with cars)

but in computer terms that M3 will get slaughterd by the corolla for half the price in ALL categories (handling, in car electronics, horsepower and torque, etc, etc)

Apple = BMW M3 = 120HP, seating for 3.5, 12" wheels, and no anti rol bars (handles like CRAP)

DIY PC = Corolla = 450HP, weighs nothing, seating for 30, 20" rims, 30mm antisway bar, racing suspension, and can fly with upgrades

Do you realize you just did what you said doesn't work?

[LagunaSol]

DIY PC = Corolla = 450HP, weighs nothing, seating for 30, 20" rims, 30mm antisway bar, racing suspension, and can fly with upgrades

Here's my question, since Apple isn't the only PC manufacturer out there: do you guys lurk around the Dell and HP forums too, telling people how stupid they are for overpaying for a pre-made box?

I doubt it...

Oh, and enjoy your Corolla with 20" rims. :D

[KnightWRX]

Here's my question, since Apple isn't the only PC manufacturer out there: do you guys lurk around the Dell and HP forums too, telling people how stupid they are for overpaying for a pre-made box?

I found a photo of mosx :

http://www.allthingsyank.com/uhf15/kunibw.jpg

(If you don't get the pun, watch Weird Al's UHF movie).

[LagunaSol]

Do you realize you just did what you said doesn't work?

Actually, I find his analogy perfect. Take a drive around any Orange County, CA city center on a Friday night and you'll see these fools everywhere. Take a Honda Civic. Throw in a turbo system. Fart-can exhaust. New suspension. Trick wheels. Put a big wing on the back. Bingo! You have an M3 at half the cost...

...that looks like crap, sounds like crap, and has the resale value of...a Honda Civic.

Brilliant! How BMW can sell any cars at all is simply inexplicable. BMW buyers must be idiots. And I assume there are Honda Civic owners on the BMW forums that are more than happy to tell them that.

[Trajectory]

Microsoft (and its brainwashed followers) have now officially become your grandma.

"You paid how much for that thing??? Are you crazy? Why didn't you buy X instead? It's much more reasonably priced. Or better yet, why didn't you just keep your old one? It worked just fine. Why, when I was a girl..."

I'm a PC. Now get off my lawn, you damn kids with your stupid overpriced sneakers...

LOL! You hit the nail on the head. Instead of "fanboys" we'll just call them Grandma.

[LagunaSol]

Compare that to my notebook desk -- spot any cables there?

Dude, you know you could have bought a keyboard, mouse, and sound system for way less than what you paid, right? :rolleyes:

[trent0090]

My biggest qualm with these ads is...

MICROSOFT DOESN'T MAKE HARDWARE.


Thank you, I have worked in a mac store (not an Apple store, the store was a third party one.) and this was the big thing a ton of people didn't get. The amount of high end software you get compared to an HP is staggering. Yes iphoto is no photoshop but to the weekend photographer it is a fun and very useful product. Same goes with garage band, I knew a man that bought a nice mic and used his machine to record all his lectures at school while taking notes as well. Plus imovie is a pretty easy to use.
Also I'm sorry for the rant. Oh and on top of that since 2007 even PC world has been saying that Macbooks and Macbookpros run Windows better than HP and Dells.

[pr5owner]

Here's my question, since Apple isn't the only PC manufacturer out there: do you guys lurk around the Dell and HP forums too, telling people how stupid they are for overpaying for a pre-made box?

I doubt it...

Oh, and enjoy your Corolla with 20" rims. :D

i havent seen another manufacture AS overpriced as apple, not even close, alienware machines are a total rip off but they have performance to back them up.

apple does not for the most part.

also my computer isnt mainstream (corolla = mainstream = hp, dell, acer, etc) i doubt anyone else in the entire world has a configuration like mine, its totally unique to my specfic needs (since i built it with my own specs in hand)

mine would be more like a K-1 Attack but with a quad rotor engine (other peoples computers will look like mine but underneath it wont be the same)

http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/9306448/0401_14z+k_1_attack_roadster+top_front_right.jpg

Actually, I find his analogy perfect. Take a drive around any Orange County, CA city center on a Friday night and you'll see these fools everywhere. Take a Honda Civic. Throw in a turbo system. Fart-can exhaust. New suspension. Trick wheels. Put a big wing on the back. Bingo! You have an M3 at half the cost...

...that looks like crap, sounds like crap, and has the resale value of...a Honda Civic.

Brilliant! How BMW can sell any cars at all is simply inexplicable. BMW buyers must be idiots. And I assume there are Honda Civic owners on the BMW forums that are more than happy to tell them that.

that doesnt work becuase those civics still do not outperform the M3 in handling, stopping, or any track times.

those civics would have to be outperforming Corvette Z06's. (which is why the car analogy does not work)

a self built system overclocked (turbo'd, SC, nitrous) runs generally around 4-4.5GHz currently with core2duos, core2quads and i7's for the price of a Macmini, now tell me, what macmini will perform the same or, what "econo" car will perform the same as a super car for half the price?

the closest comparsion i canmake is a lancer EVO or Lancer RS450 compared with a ferarri 550.

the lancer will slaughter the ferarri in all weather conditions on or off track rain, snow, etc.

Ferarri = looks
Lancer = performance and can seat 5.

I found a photo of mosx :

http://www.allthingsyank.com/uhf15/kunibw.jpg

(If you don't get the pun, watch Weird Al's UHF movie).

lowering yourself to insult other people on the internet doesnt change the fact apple is bad value, bad performance, sheepish looks. lets get back on toping shall we?

oh look! apple admits their design is crap

http://i.gizmodo.com/5204395/apple-privately-admits-white-macbooks-notorious-crack-problem

Hon hai builds them but under apples specific guidelines and specs. this is a fault of apples design.

[polaris20]

the lancer will slaughter the ferarri in all weather conditions on or off track rain, snow, etc.

Ferarri = looks
Lancer = performance and can seat 5.

And yet given the choice between a Mitsubishi and a Ferrari, I'd still rather have the Ferrari.

Nice analogy!

[LagunaSol]

alienware machines are a total rip off but they have performance to back them up

Interesting contradiction...

[polaris20]

Interesting contradiction...

I wonder who's on the committee that decides what is and is not a good value, what is and is not a rip-off?

I hereby elect Mosx and Pr5Owner.

May they bestow upon us knowledge from on high, so that us lowly fanboys be set straight once and for all.

[Trajectory]

grandmas dont play games nor do they have overclocked selfbuilt computers nor do they drive super cars or modified cars, just buicks. but grandmas have macs! i know lots of grandmas with iMac 24's

Dude, your cork has popped. Why don't you bop on over to the AppleInsider forum and complain about the price of Macs there for a while. I'll help you cross the street.

[pr5owner]

Also I'm sorry for the rant. Oh and on top of that since 2007 even PC world has been saying that Macbooks and Macbookpros run Windows better than HP and Dells.

you mean this rediculous article?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/136649/in_pictures_the_most_notable_notebooks_of_2007.html

comparing a macbookpro to an ultraportable? please, if you believe that you should not be in any profession related to IT.

PC world just randomly tested laptops, none of them were in the same category as the others.

then they say MBP faster than even an alienware WOW, not all alienwares are for performance, alienware machines have a machine in EACH category, portability, gaming, ultra gaming, affordability, value.

they tested an affordable alienware with apple's most expensive machine. why not try testing most expensive with most expensive, (that means an alienware with dual video cards, dual HDDs in raid 0 and a quadcore CPU, then we'll see who wins)

i just cant understand why apple users cant nail down the facts.

[AidenShaw]

What will tomorrow's new advert be?

I'd like to see the gamer look for a laptop...

[KnightWRX]

lowering yourself to insult other people on the internet doesnt change the fact apple is bad value, bad performance, sheepish looks. lets get back on toping shall we?

What insult ? Do you know the character ? Do you realise that this character is always saying "STOOOOOPID" to everyone for whatever it is they do ?

There was no insult, only a comparison, and a fair one at that.

[polaris20]

What will tomorrow's new advert be?

I'd like to see the gamer look for a laptop...

Honestly, if we're to look at the pro-MS thing, I thought the commercials with the kid showing how easy stuff is to do was a better approach, as were the commercials where all these different people were PCs.

These current commercials are almost insulting to Windows, because it says to me that instead of proclaiming what a great OS it is, they're saying how cheap the machines are.

Er, what if I want an expensive PC that runs Windows?

An operating system company should focus on selling their operating system. At this point they might as well be selling Ubuntu on cheap PC's; going by the commercial, I wouldn't know the difference.

[Trajectory]

What will tomorrow's new advert be?

I'd like to see the gamer look for a laptop...

It will be Grandma looking for the cheapest, ugliest PC she can find to run Windows 95: Senior Edition, so she can receive photos of her grandchildren over the Internets. HOT!

[pr5owner]

I wonder who's on the committee that decides what is and is not a good value, what is and is not a rip-off?

I hereby elect Mosx and Pr5Owner.

May they bestow upon us knowledge from on high, so that us lowly fanboys be set straight once and for all.

Interesting contradiction...



sorry i forgot your mac fans, you have no capability of looking up something yourself.

custom built DIY

Phenom II 2.6GHz QUAD CORE
4 GB DDR2 1066MHz ram (OCZ Reaper)
Asus AM3 Mobo
640GB HDD 16MB Cache NCQ
ATi 4870 1GB GDDR5
Antec 300 case
650W Corsair PSU
21.5" 1080P fast 2ms response

$900 CANADIAN Shipped (USD = divde by 1.3)

Alienware

Athlon X2 2.7GHz (Dual core, NOT QUAD)
9800GT 512MB (good card, but not as fast as the 4870, but can still play games)
2GB Ram 800MHz (not as fast, higher latency, more Value ram than performance OCZ Reaper or Patriot Viper like the above computer)
250GB HDD (again, not as fast or as good as the 640GB 16MB Cache)
nice looking case, but im more conservative and like black cases
no monitor

$999 (way more than the machine i built above)

Apple iMac 20" (cheapest one)

$1199 (WAY More than both of them)

Core2duo 2.66 (again, dual, not quad, NO Memory controller)
2GB of ram 1066MHz with mem controller on slow ass northbridge
320GB HDD (slow, not alot of cache)
nvidia 9400 onboard NO Video ram (laughable at best)


so what do we have?

the computer i built is faster than all of them with a better monitor
the alienware can still play games but is over priced
the mac is WAY overpriced and CANT play games

remember a gaming computer can be a regular desktop too, just a faster regular desktop.

do you understand? do you need someone to hold your hand to read through this?

And yet given the choice between a Mitsubishi and a Ferrari, I'd still rather have the Ferrari.

Nice analogy!

yes because you choose looks and brand name over functional specs and peformance

PC users choose the latter. however PC users have many looks and can change looks when they feel like (changing cases, etc)

although i think this looks better than a Macpro

http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/dell-xps-730.jpg

What will tomorrow's new advert be?

I'd like to see the gamer look for a laptop...

that will be the end of this forum because the posts will exceed a million and whatever servers this forum is hosted on will run out of space and bandwidth.

And yet given the choice between a Mitsubishi and a Ferrari, I'd still rather have the Ferrari.

Nice analogy!

it still doesnt work though

Ferarri = V8/V12
Lancer = 2.0L Turbo

Apple = low end Core2duo
PC = Core i7s and Phenom IIs

thats like saying 4 is more than 12 (dual core is more than quad core with HT showing up as 8CPU's)

to make it the same it would be
Ferarri 2.0L I4
Lancer V12 Quad Turbo (turbo = overclock)

Do you realize you just did what you said doesn't work?

OF COURSE IT DOESNT WORK, im saying comparing computers to cars DONT WORK AT ALL! but you people keep trying to make apple's look like high end german cars. and PC's like underpowered economy cars.

Originally Posted by pr5owner
the problem with car analogies is they dont work when you throw them up against computer manufactures as counterparts.

[dejo]

custom built DIY

..clip..

$900 CANADIAN Shipped (USD = divde by 1.3)

Alienware

...clip...

$999 (way more than the machine i built above)


Way more? Really? $99 is way more? Yikes!

[pr5owner]

Way more? Really? $99 is way more? Yikes!

ugh, why can you not read?

Canadian Currency + Shipping amount < American + NO s/h included

900 = $733ish USD Shipped
$999 (NO S/h) > $733

the diffrence? lets say the alien ware was shipped for $999

for $266 LESS i get
1080p gaming monitor (Vs none), bigger HDD, faster HDD, more Ram, FASTER Ram, Faster CPU (Phenom 2 on AM3 socket vs Athlon X2 AM2 socket), More Cores,

[dejo]

ugh, why can you not read?
ugh, kinda hard to read what's not written.

[4D4M]

the closest comparsion i canmake is a lancer EVO or Lancer RS450 compared with a ferarri 550.

the lancer will slaughter the ferarri in all weather conditions on or off track rain, snow, etc.

Ferarri = looks
Lancer = performance and can seat 5.

Ever driven a Ferrari?

There's a hell of a lot more to the whole experience than numbers on paper. I'm not just talking about the brand name either. I mean the 'wow' factor that can't be quantified - that the Evo, great though it is, just can't quite match.

A better comparison with Apple would have been Porsche, because like Apple, they build desirable machines that give you a fabulous user experience and they also build cheaper, lower performance models that you still want to own even though they're outperformed on paper by cheaper competition. And unlike Ferrari, they have good build quality!

[pr5owner]

okay okay, i got it..........

Apple = Rolex Watches
PC's = Citizen Watches

Lets compare

Rolex Oyster Peretual

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/pr5owner/forum/rolex-oyster-perpetual.jpg

What do you get?

Decent craftsmanship
automatic movement
poor accuracy (even with COSC certification its still like 6 seconds off a day)
automatic calender
sapphire crystal
stainless steel case and bracelet (can get the crap scratched out of it)
complications (date)

Price = Around the $5000 mark, depends if you get gold trim or not


Citizen Attessa W/ DLC

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/pr5owner/forum/532834_l03.jpg

Quality Craftsmanship
Solarpowered, never need a battery, lasts 2 years in the dark
100% accuracy (automatic time sync with atomic clock every day, never lose a SINGLE second)
perpetual or automatic calender (sync with atomic clock)
sapphire crystal
titanium Case and bracelet (lighter and just as strong)
DLC Coating (unscratchable, this guy just keyed his own watch!, no problem Link (http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=74924)
complications (everything under the sun, timer, stopwatch, date, world time, etc, etc)

Price = $1300 CAD ($999USD i think?)

Rolex, people say it has more class, thats TBD, better resale value,
what do you get? a nice looking watch thats inaccurate and a brand name

Citizen , known for quality since almost all quarts watches have citizen movement, expensive AND cheap models, basically anything that has myota movement is Citizen, an large set of features, will last longer than the rolex due to the DLC (Heatsinked Patriot viper ram lasts longer than apples micron value ram)

[dejo]

okay okay, i got it..........

Apple = Rolex Watches
PC's = Citizen Watches


And how much does your custom-built DIY wristwatch cost? ;)

[pr5owner]

Ever driven a Ferrari?

There's a hell of a lot more to the whole experience than numbers on paper. I'm not just talking about the brand name either. I mean the 'wow' factor that can't be quantified - that the Evo, great though it is, just can't quite match.

A better comparison with Apple would have been Porsche, because like Apple, they build desirable machines that give you a fabulous user experience and they also build cheaper, lower performance models that you still want to own even though they're outperformed on paper by cheaper competition. And unlike Ferrari, they have good build quality!

yeah you just cant compare computers with cars, it doesnt work.

[Schtumple]

In all seriousness, WAKE UP.

First of all, it's more than 3%


I don't care for US market share, you aren't the only country in the world you know :p

[pr5owner]

And how much does your custom-built DIY wristwatch cost? ;)

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390040611298

$250 (becuase im not a watch freak like some other ppl on that watch forum) but mine is a pathfinder with

Altimeter + Memory
Barometer
Compass
Temperature sensor
Tide Graph
Moon Phase
Waveceptor (atomic sync)
Titanium case and bracelet
Auto EL

but i also have a breitling, a Skagen, Citizen Calibre 2100, cheap chinese watch that has a cool clear/black alternating face

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrA0kR7YQiw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI1A0cbWTfw

[Rob0711]

i wonder why the ms fanboys (from whom i still can´t understand why they waste their time here, unless they only live to entertain us) always have to use games and performance together. heck one post even said grandmas don´t play games (which with our newfound analogy for that type of poster sounds really funny) but do you guys really know that there are people out there who actually work with their machines ? i doubt my boss´d like me tuning my computer or my car all day ? sure the liquid nitrogenium cooled super overclocked beast might be the fastest thing you can get playing your games. but i can´t live with a machine crashing during the night or the day (sure all computers crash. but there are differences in that :) big ones). although as entertaining as it is :) i still can´t see any point in your guys mindless bashing. but if you like to :) actually one should start a winrumors site :) would be a great place for all the people needing help out there

[polaris20]

sorry i forgot your mac fans, you have no capability of looking up something yourself.

Had you actually read my posts, you'd know I use all 3 platforms, and have built many, many PCs over the years, just as you have.

do you understand? do you need someone to hold your hand to read through this?

Apparently you do, because you completely missed everything I've said so far.

yes because you choose looks and brand name over functional specs and peformance

Really? how so? Sure I've got a Mac, but I've also got a Thinkpad running Windows, and a custom built server running Xenserver. You'd know that though, had you actually read any posts, or even glanced at my sig.


it still doesnt work though

Ferarri = V8/V12
Lancer = 2.0L Turbo

Apple = low end Core2duo
PC = Core i7s and Phenom IIs

thats like saying 4 is more than 12 (dual core is more than quad core with HT showing up as 8CPU's)

to make it the same it would be
Ferarri 2.0L I4
Lancer V12 Quad Turbo (turbo = overclock)

Have you even driven a Ferrari? Somehow I doubt it.

Anyway, your comparisons of your home built work of art and Apple remain pointless in this thread, as neither Apple nor the ads being discussed are pointed at people like you.

[Trajectory]

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390040611298

Egad, that's one ugly watch. That explains a lot.

[codo]

yes because you choose looks and brand name over functional specs and peformance

PC users choose the latter. however PC users have many looks and can change looks when they feel like (changing cases, etc)

although i think this looks better than a Macpro

http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/dell-xps-730.jpg


Yeah so what if I choose a brand over another? Welcome to capitalism - you'll like it.

Dell is still a brand, my friend. You should source the parts yourself and build it yourself to achieve the true PC you are trying to preach. Heck every Tom, Dick & Harry should. All these mugs around the world paying for other people to design and build stuff for them... They should also write all their own software - that way you can avoid the tiresome position of having to choose one brand of media player, web browser or word processor over another. They should grow all their own vegetables and rear their own cattle too.

Of course any self-built PC would be full of hardware of particular brands (Do I use an ATI or an nVidia graphics card? Crucial or Hynix memory? Intel or MSI motherboard?) so designing and manufacturing your own components will be important too...

The average "PC user" does not "change looks whenever they feel" or ever even look inside the machine - no. They buy a some lump of junk from PC World, use it until it's unbearable or gets a virus they are unable to remove, and move on to their next cheap PC.

And that Dell is quite honestly one of the least aesthetically pleasing objects I have ever been unfortunate enough to gaze upon.

People who can afford to buy luxury goods will - be it a Ralph Lauren sweater, with a manufacturing/design/etc cost of probably less than 10% of the retail value, or an Apple computer (which do not have margins as high as Ralph Lauren polos!). Get real - people like nice things!

[pr5owner]

Egad, that's one ugly watch. That explains a lot.

LOL all about looks for apple users, when your outdoors what is a rolex going to do for you?

when you do a little hardcore camping (nothing but a knife and some food after walking for days in a random direction) you arent going to rely on a pretty watch to guide you back to your dropoff point.

i needed a compass and barometer plain and simple
however i did mention i have a brietling as well diffrent watch, diffrent purpose (obviously the Skyland avenger is for dress)

Have you even driven a Ferrari? Somehow I doubt it.

yep, a 355, and i said you cannot compare cars to computers, it simply does not work. that whole post was the prove that comparing cars to computers is a waste of time.

[-hh]

And Compaq introduced DVD burners a week before Apple. Big deal.

Yup, "Film at 11" (yawn).

However, I wasn't the one making a big deal out of Photoshop CS4 already being 64 bits under Windows...so go take it up with the poster who was trying to make that a big deal.

Other than fueling the vanity of the Apple Cult, there's no real advantage to Apple getting chip X announced a couple of weeks before other makers.

Agreed again. And now let's try to have the guy who claimed that there was some profoundness of 64 bit Photoshop explain himsef.

A couple of weeks isn't a "leapfrog", it's a rounding error.

And when the feature isn't needed yet for 99% of their users, does that smack of uber goodnesss, or functional irrelevance?

For example, consider the real world value-added for the 128bit ZFS filing system today...hard drives aren't yet even big enough to be limited by 64 bit systems.

Ditto for a Dell PC that can accomodate 150+GB of RAM today. How many buyers are going to sell their house to be able to buy that RAM?

This is part of the nonsense that is repeated in this MS-commercial. Goofball BadHairGuy throws around a few random hardware specs to prove that he can. Want me to throw around useless specs too? Okay...

We can start with my 911's tire pressure. Sounds like a random enough 'technical' specification to me. You can claim that your car's Tire Pressure is higher (or lower) and thus, that somehow means something profound.

Okay, you "win" whatever waving contest we were having. And I'll let you also "win" the race out on the highway too...the State Troopers are using Laser quite a bit lately, so I could use a good 'Rabbit' on the way home tonight. It will work even better if your car is bright red, although the black jeep SUV (the other day) did fine as well.

It doesn't have to be about being the first one to arrive, but how enjoyable the journey was. Grok the analogy?


Please cite your sources for these statistics.

Thank-you, but I decline. This was previously done and previously already commented on, IIRC by you within the past 3 weeks. If it is so blessed important to you to read it again, please go look it up yourself in the Archives.

Pure fiction.

Nevertheless, it stands until someone provide sources that offer a more reasonable alternative.

FYI, you should perhaps note that the xMac was cut a huge break in assuming that its existence would have zero cannibalization of any laptops. Thus, a more reasonable alternative vignette should take this factor into account.

More speculation.

Its a basic business case examination, and as is often typical, the specific numbers aren't anywhere near as important as the overall structure. Feel free to vary the numbers to do a sensitivity analysis: you'll find that the underlying conclusion won't really change.

That overall conclusion is that fragmenting one's product lines in a declining market is not a particularly profitable endeavor to persue.

Whatever gave you the idea that "success" of the Apple quad-core mini-tower means a return to a 50-50 split?

It doesn't have to be 50-50, but currently, there's 5 notebook product tooling lines, so if the desktop line is going to grow to be 5 also, what number makes more sense than 5:5 --> 50%-50%?

And while going from 70-30 to 60-40 would arguably be a "success" for desktops, this occurrence would then require closer examination of segments to ascertain how much of the sales came from laptop cannibalization. In the end, it wouldn't be hitting a "Home Run" but merely a "Double", or maybe just a "Single": there's hopefully going to be an initial surge of demand, but this will invariably dampen out after a few quarters as it reaches steady state.

It goes back to the swings/carousels concept from Sweden(Anuba). Many people are not switching because none of the desktops are practical for them. Give them an affordable mini-tower, and over time they'll probably buy Apple laptops and laptops-on-a-stick.

It's the mini-tower Halo effect.

Won't happen when the cost of entry is the same, plus this misses out because of both on the Pareto Principle and Occam's Razor: the reason why notebook-class powered PCs are so popular today is because they pass the "Good Enough" test. For an iMac and (xMac + monitor) at the same basic price point, a segment won't bother to differentiate based on horsepower or longer term expandability, so they'll choose on asthetics instead...there simply is no "upsell" potential to exploit.

And all of this needs to be balanced back across what the financial implications are of an additional model: it has fixed development costs that have to be paid for somehow: the only way that a 'Halo' works is if it is pure gain with zero downside .... which effectively means that it generally works across product lines (ipod to Mac), and not within.


-hh

[Trajectory]

LOL all about looks for apple users, when your outdoors what is a rolex going to do for you?

Outdoors? My watch works just fine outdoors and does everything I need, plus it looks good, too.

You see, just because you drive a Yugo doesn't mean you have to hate on everyone else who drives something else. Stop being a hater.

[pr5owner]

i wonder why the ms fanboys (from whom i still can´t understand why they waste their time here, unless they only live to entertain us) always have to use games and performance together. heck one post even said grandmas don´t play games (which with our newfound analogy for that type of poster sounds really funny) but do you guys really know that there are people out there who actually work with their machines ? i doubt my boss´d like me tuning my computer or my car all day ? sure the liquid nitrogenium cooled super overclocked beast might be the fastest thing you can get playing your games. but i can´t live with a machine crashing during the night or the day (sure all computers crash. but there are differences in that :) big ones). although as entertaining as it is :) i still can´t see any point in your guys mindless bashing. but if you like to :) actually one should start a winrumors site :) would be a great place for all the people needing help out there

overclocking to a point that its not stable is not really overclocking, thats called stupidity.

overclocking includes making it run stable as well or we wouldnt be able to play games for 16 hours straight. (games are more demanding and problems would arise faster in stability than just running a word processor)

gaming computers do work just as well or better, before i had just my gaming computer for all my computer needs, email, surfing, and writing up my resume. gaming computers arent restricted to just games.

[Rob0711]

wow i envy you being able to play games for 16 hours straight ! and one hell of a computer that must be that survives running for 16 straight hours !

actually i don´t care if you compare watches, cars or whatever. the point is some people just do other things. so i guess everyone finds something that fits to his needs. as most people here already have

[polaris20]

yep, a 355, and i said you cannot compare cars to computers, it simply does not work. that whole post was the prove that comparing cars to computers is a waste of time.

I agree for the most part, however one thing that rings true for computers and cars is that pure speed is not the only factor in what makes the product a good value or not, nor is it up to you to decide for everyone else, despite yours and Mosx's efforts.

[pr5owner]

Outdoors? My watch works just fine outdoors and does everything I need, plus it looks good, too.

You see, just because you drive a Yugo doesn't mean you have to hate on everyone else who drives something else. Stop being a hater.

you didnt read the rest of the post did you?

why was the pathfinder created, well lets take a look

"Pathfinder watches not only feature authentic outdoor styling, but have distinguished themselves as “genuine tools” for use in the Great Outdoors. Every model is equipped with sensors to help you observe Nature and monitor its changes."


the sea pathfinder has a depth gauge, o2 reserve monitor, etc, etc

why do you even need those? why not just stay under until your o2 runs out, you dont need to monitor your rate of accent, you can just die on the bottom of the sea with a nice looking watch.

[polaris20]

wow i envy you being able to play games for 16 hours straight ! and one hell of a computer that must be that survives running for 16 straight hours !

actually i don´t care if you compare watches, cars or whatever. the point is some people just do other things. so i guess everyone finds something that fits to his needs. as most people here already have

That's another thing that's apparently lost on these guys; not everyone uses their computer for games and watching movies. Some of us actually do work on them.

[pr5owner]

wow i envy you being able to play games for 16 hours straight ! and one hell of a computer that must be that survives running for 16 straight hours !

actually i don´t care if you compare watches, cars or whatever. the point is some people just do other things. so i guess everyone finds something that fits to his needs. as most people here already have

that was just an example,

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2120472/second-gamer-dies-massive-binge

played for 86 hours straight,

anyways by my example if you play games for that long that means 100% stress on your system (CPU, RAm , Video, some HDD) while being overclocked, thats pretty stable for most gaming machines running at 4GHz from 3ish GHz.

if it can do that, then it can run a word processor and regular desktop stuff
indefinately

overclocking = FREE performance

That's another thing that's apparently lost on these guys; not everyone uses their computer for games and watching movies. Some of us actually do work on them.

in my other post i said i did do work on my gaming computer (when it was the only machine i had)

how else work i get computer work done? my gaming machine ran VMware at the time with 8 VM'sin the background for network software testing, ran it quite fast actaully.

gaming computers can do anything regular computer can do, just FASTER.

[LagunaSol]

although i think this looks better than a Macpro

http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/dell-xps-730.jpg

Yeah, I'm sure all your buddies at the LAN party will be impressed. Nice lighting effects! *snicker*

[pr5owner]

Yeah, I'm sure all your buddies at the LAN party will be impressed. Nice lighting effects! *snicker*

in my other post i stated i like all black cases, and i hate dell and prebuilt computers but just saying that cases looks nicer than the macpros case

[polaris20]

in my other post i said i did do work on my gaming computer (when it was the only machine i had)

how else work i get computer work done? my gaming machine ran VMware at the time with 8 VM'sin the background for network software testing, ran it quite fast actaully.

gaming computers can do anything regular computer can do, just FASTER.

Yeah, I totally realize that, but thanks for filling me in. Gosh, I didn't know a gamer PC can do work too! :rolleyes:

Jesus dude, just who exactly are you trying to convince of all the crap you're saying? Do you really think you're going to change anyone's mind? Do you really think people give a rat's ass how many computers you, me, or anyone has built or how much money they saved doing so?
Do you care how many OSes I currently have on my Xen server? I'm guessing not. Do you care that I've been running Win7 for nearly two months flawlessly on several different machines? Probably not.
Do I care that you think Apples are overpriced and not a good value? Without a doubt, absolutely not.

[gkarris]

yes because you choose looks and brand name over functional specs and peformance

PC users choose the latter. however PC users have many looks and can change looks when they feel like (changing cases, etc)

although i think this looks better than a Macpro

http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/dell-xps-730.jpg

Yeah, I'm sure all your buddies at the LAN party will be impressed. Nice lighting effects! *snicker*

And when the lights "malfunction" you get to call rude Dell Customer Service Reps... :eek:

Okay, rant over...

Gaming rigs are NOT Apple's customers anyways. The closest that Apple will ever get to gaming is to use Intel processors and boot into Windows (which the ended up doing :) ).

AFA "an open Mac Tower" - well, Apple, just like iPhone unlockers, indirectly says go build your own - we certainly don't have the time. :eek:

(I know someone at work with a Hackintosh - it's pretty neat!)

It's not like they're going to arrest us iPhone unlockers and Hackintosh owners anyways... :)

How did Steve and Woz start out? ;)

[-hh]

...overclocking includes making it run stable as well or we wouldnt be able to play games for 16 hours straight. (games are more demanding and problems would arise faster in stability than just running a word processor)...

Fair enough, but there's also a difference between asking for 16 hours of flawless runtime and 16 days or 16 weeks of flawless runtime. Its simply a different priority set.

This is the crux of the debate with Microsoft's Lauren and G-Boy ads: their priority set resonates because it is divergent from what Mac-centric individuals would consider.

Its technically not "Wrong" - - its "Different", and if it was a real person instead of a marketing piece, there would be nothing wrong with it: afterall, in that circumstance, it would be their money and their choice.



gaming computers do work just as well or better, before i had just my gaming computer for all my computer needs, email, surfing, and writing up my resume. gaming computers arent restricted to just games.

To play Devil's Advocate, I'd venture to say that you were "Ripped Off".

Afterall, for websurfing, pretty much any PC one buys today is going to be limited by the bandwidth of the connection, so you bought "too fast" of a PC.

Next, for reading email, even more so, since the bandwidth limitation is the human ability to read ... that's around 2400 baud; 9600 baud for reading USENET where there's more headers that can be ignored.

And for writing a resume, that's even slower than reading email.

As such, what was the magnitude of your ... shall we call it a "Gamer PC Tax"? :D

As I said: nothing technically "Wrong" - - just "Different", assuming that you're a real person and its your money and your choice. However, we all need to remember to return the courtesy in allowings others a similar freedom of choice without it being labelled as "Wrong", or a "Rip Off".

Afterall, its not necessarily always about being the first to arrive: there's also value to be had in having a less stressful trip such that one enjoys the journey.


-hh

EDIT: PS:

overclocking = FREE performance

Not necessariliy so. There's invariably some trade-off somewhere, particularly when the Manufacturer doesn't do something (like this) on his own. For example, overclocking typically generates higher operating temperatures which generally shortens the product's life. Granted, you might not care if it was reduced from 5 years to 4 if you upgrade every 3, but that's still a reduction and thus at some level, a hidden cost incurred by someone.

FWIW, it used to be a fairly common practice in some regions to overfill AL80 scuba tanks. But after a few of them blew up and killed a couple of fill operators, people finally started to get the clue that overfilling didn't come "Free" with zero downsides.


-hh

[DMann]

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390040611298

$250 (becuase im not a watch freak like some other ppl on that watch forum) but mine is a pathfinder with

Altimeter + Memory
Barometer
Compass
Temperature sensor
Tide Graph
Moon Phase
Waveceptor (atomic sync)
Titanium case and bracelet
Auto EL

but i also have a breitling, a Skagen, Citizen Calibre 2100, cheap chinese watch that has a cool clear/black alternating face

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrA0kR7YQiw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI1A0cbWTfw

No GPS? For that price? That swatch is way underpowered - you have seriously been ripped off!

[jbernie]

Totally. Rule #1 in business: Never sell people what they ask for.

Speaking of that, I was thinking of starting a car company. I have this great idea for a product lineup, tell me what you think.

And then, for pros and prosumers, something a little more high-end -- The Wac Pro:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/68/191338286_731295d063.jpg?v=0

I've thought about it carefully but I don't really see any gaps in this lineup, it covers all bases, IMO.

Great post Anuba :D I want me a Wac Pro to get groceries and take the kids to school. I think it will suit my needs perfectly.

[polaris20]

Fair enough, but there's also a difference between asking for 16 hours of flawless runtime and 16 days or 16 weeks of flawless runtime. Its simply a different priority set.

This is the crux of the debate with Microsoft's Lauren and G-Boy ads: their priority set resonates because it is divergent from what Mac-centric individuals would consider.

Its technically not "Wrong" - - its "Different", and if it was a real person instead of a marketing piece, there would be nothing wrong with it: afterall, in that circumstance, it would be their money and their choice.





To play Devil's Advocate, I'd venture to say that you were "Ripped Off".

Afterall, for websurfing, pretty much any PC one buys today is going to be limited by the bandwidth of the connection, so you bought "too fast" of a PC.

Next, for reading email, even more so, since the bandwidth limitation is the human ability to read ... that's around 2400 baud; 9600 baud for reading USENET where there's more headers that can be ignored.

And for writing a resume, that's even slower than reading email.

As such, what was the magnitude of your ... shall we call it a "Gamer PC Tax"? :D


See, that's the thing: any machine from the last 7 or 8 years will be fine for 90% of the users out there looking to use their iPod, surf the net, and do Office-type stuff. That's why netbooks have gotten so popular. A Pentium M from 5 years ago benchmarks faster, but for many things, it doesn't matter.

That's why people looking at Macs as being a rip-off because they don't have the raw power (be it CPU or GPU) as a similarly priced PC don't get it. Many people don't want a Mac for those reasons, they want it for the experience. They want to have everything work together, with a minimal amount of hassle. They want the experience.

They like the way OS X works, plain and simple. And if that's what they like, then let them like it. It's their choice if they want to overpay for a Mac. It's not up to any one like Mosx and PR5Owner to tell them they're "wrong" or are getting "ripped off".

I still have my 400mhz G4 TiBook. It runs Entourage, Word, Excel, and Firefox all while playing a DVD full screen without a single stutter.

A modern Mac is fine for all the additional things digital life brings us, like video, audio, etc.

So is a Windows machine. So is Linux. It's all personal preference.

[superbungalow]

This would probably be a horrible horrible plug of my blog, if my blog wasn't a pile of crap no-one reads, which has no advertising or anything, but related to this thread, has anyone seen that stupid Apple Tax report? I wrote a huge rant about it:

http://superbungalow.wordpress.com/2009/04/09/apple-tax-report-bollocks/

Yeah sorry about not typing it all here, where it's far more likely to get read, but that was easier to format and shizzle.

[DMann]

hmm actually i think they don´t (the ads). if there were over 2k posts talking about the and i´d give credit to the agency which made them.

The Ford Edsel was also well advertised, avidly talked about, and became a hot topic of conversation for decades.

There are MS fan sites??? :D

Their servers have been down for quite a while now, due to bad drivers.

I've been critical of you in the past, but I agree with your post here.

I think being critical of Apple doesn't equal being pro-Microsoft, however continual bashing of OS X with anecdotal evidence based on 3 machines is ridiculous.

Then to say there's nothing wrong at all with Vista, and even that there was nothing wrong with Me, and you've got a diehard MS shill.

I agree with you that there are gaping holes in their product line-up, however while I remain cautiously optimistic, I doubt Apple will ever fill them.

Oh come on... Vista, I'll give you. But do ya have to diss the Millenium Edition?

grandmas dont play games nor do they have overclocked selfbuilt computers nor do they drive super cars or modified cars, just buicks.

but grandmas have macs! i know lots of grandmas with iMac 24's

Yep, their countless Dells, HPs, and Gateways, purchased six months ago, all of which have frozen up on them, have been stowed up in the attic.

[polaris20]

This would probably be a horrible horrible plug of my blog, if my blog wasn't a pile of crap no-one reads, which has no advertising or anything, but related to this thread, has anyone seen that stupid Apple Tax report? I wrote a huge rant about it:

http://superbungalow.wordpress.com/2009/04/09/apple-tax-report-bollocks/

Yeah sorry about not typing it all here, where it's far more likely to get read, but that was easier to format and shizzle.

Nice post. That spreadsheet is kinda stupid, because it's not even a direct comparison.

[Apple Genius]

Ok, mosx guy,

you started off with some valid points and I'll agree with you that Apple people are not cool for owning Apple products, but talking smack about the OS X and the iPod... Well, you've crossed the line to the dark side. :mad:

IPOD PWNS U! PART I
I have factual evidence and scientific data that proves that the iPod OWNS:

A) In 2000, no one liked Macs, but TRILLIONS of people bought iPods, leading to the comeback of Apple, *** yea!
and B) CAUSE STONE COLD SAID SO!!!!1


And by the way, China is cool now so stop with the hate and get with the times, huh? Cause whn they take over the world, I'ma be like "Ni-Hao!"

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t216/tsuki_minamoto/Animals/NiHao.jpg

[DMann]

You really think Microsoft really cares about how much money Apple makes on one system sold when Microsoft's OS is on more than ten times as many units? Apparently, they do.

It is hilarious that you say Microsoft and the Microsoft "followers" are getting desperate though. That Microsoft's "Empire" will fall. I hate to break it to you, but Apple's marketshare worldwide is what? It's between 2.4% to 3% depending on which numbers you go buy. Likewise, Microsoft's marketshare is what worldwide? Roughly 90% depending on the numbers you read. Yeah, think about that for a minute. You're looking at 3% versus 90%. Thats sort of like a small ant going up against a human wearing shoes. Who do you think will prevail? Hilarious, but true. Out of the 88-87% of MSs worldwide marketshare, their number two competitor, the Windows pirated/unlicensed segment, is quite substantial - enough to cause great concern, as it is a competitor which is tough to beat, especially with the current economy. It's staggering to realize how much of their world wide share has lost money to piracy, and continues to do so at an accelerated rate. This does not bode well for MS.

[Sehnsucht]

....although i think this looks better than a Mac Pro

http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/dell-xps-730.jpg

Ehhh...the case design is tolerable...but what's with the glowing red *********? :eek: If the case was silver, white or even glossy black it would be so much better.

I prefer Mac Pros for their processing power, by the way. ;)

[NoSmokingBandit]

Apparently, they do.

Hilarious, but true. Out of the 88-87% of MSs worldwide marketshare, their number two competitor, the Windows pirated/unlicensed segment, is quite substantial - enough to cause great concern, as it is a competitor which is tough to beat, especially with the current economy. It's staggering to realize how much of their world wide share has lost money to piracy, and continues to do so at an accelerated rate. This does not bode well for MS.

Somewhere i read that the majority of MS's profits are from oem installs.

[Sehnsucht]

but grandmas have macs! i know lots of grandmas with iMac 24's

My grandma has a Mac mini. :D She got it as a replacement for her ancient, beige Dell with the following specs:


5 GB hard drive
128 MB RAM
2 USB 1.0
2 parallel ports
old CRT monitor
floppy drive


She caved in and got the mini just to get me to shut the ***** up about how slow her old box is. :D But hey, she likes OS X better now!

[pr5owner]

No GPS? For that price? That swatch is way underpowered - you have seriously been ripped off!

wrong GPS is another $100

http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-SUUNTO-X10-WRISTOP-ALTIMETER-GPS-WATCH-SS014005010_W0QQitemZ250401926163QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Jewelery_Watches_Watches_MensWatches_GL?hash= item250401926163&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1215%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1309

this is not solar powered either or titanium.


Not necessariliy so. There's invariably some trade-off somewhere, particularly when the Manufacturer doesn't do something (like this) on his own. For example, overclocking typically generates higher operating temperatures which generally shortens the product's life. Granted, you might not care if it was reduced from 5 years to 4 if you upgrade every 3, but that's still a reduction and thus at some level, a hidden cost incurred by someone.

-hh



not really, becuase part overclocking is ensuring the CPU is cooled properly (not using stock heatsink) my e8400 has a tuniq tower HSF (the HSF is so big it can cool the e8400 passively)

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4353/hpim3191pp5.jpg

my Duron 700@1.1GHz is still running to this date from 2001
my athlon XP 2500@2.3GHz is again, still running at a friends house as a file server thats on 24/7

almost every computer in my house is overclocked, and they are all running an working fine, i have yet to see a computer die from overclocking. the only CPU that did die that ive seen is my friend tightening a water block on too tight and cracking the die. that is only a result of stupidity not heat.

Great post Anuba :D I want me a Wac Pro to get groceries and take the kids to school. I think it will suit my needs perfectly.

along with your 350ton earth hauling job

[whitefang]

I've been critical of you in the past, but I agree with your post here.

I think being critical of Apple doesn't equal being pro-Microsoft, however continual bashing of OS X with anecdotal evidence based on 3 machines is ridiculous.

Then to say there's nothing wrong at all with Vista, and even that there was nothing wrong with Me, and you've got a diehard MS shill.

I agree with you that there are gaping holes in their product line-up, however while I remain cautiously optimistic, I doubt Apple will ever fill them.

Look in the help section to see how many "help my os x has stopped working" threads there are. Does that mean OS X is bad as Vista?

It's unfair that Vista is installed on crappy hardware with poor drivers WHILE OS X is installed in very high-end hardware and proper written drivers.

At the end of the day, Vista on a high-end machine with proper drivers will beat OS X any day in terms of productivity (for business of course).

The windows taskbar cannot be beat when multiple windows are open. Expose cannot beat it. The time it takes to open expose and move your mouse to the correct window (you gotta find the window first) is MUCH longer than just clicking on the taskbar. Those milli-second differences add up when you are constantly switching windows (for example, switching between MySql Editor and XCode).

[DMann]

Somewhere i read that the majority of MS's profits are from oem installs. And they give up a significant portion of their share to Unlicensed Windows copies:

[DMann]

It's unfair that Vista is installed on crappy hardware with poor drivers WHILE OS X is installed in very high-end hardware and proper written drivers. Hence, the premium.

[whitefang]

Hence, the premium.

The premium??? So you are blaming Microsoft instead of hardware vendors like Dell and HP?

In that case, maybe I'll blame Apple because my HP printer isn't working.

[DMann]

She caved in and got the mini just to get me to shut the ***** up about how slow her old box is. :D But hey, she likes OS X better now!However, that is not a very nice thing to say about your grandma.

[KnightWRX]

The premium??? So you are blaming Microsoft instead of hardware vendors like Dell and HP?

In that case, maybe I'll blame Apple because my HP printer isn't working.

Apple hasn't certified your HP printer to work. As soon as there is a "Vista Ready" sticker on a computer, it has been certified by Microsoft. Are you saying that Microsoft is lax in its approvals of Dell and HP hardware, which all bear this sticker ?

If Microsoft stamps it, Microsoft is to blame.

[Anuba]

Ehhh...the case design is tolerable...but what's with the glowing red *********? :eek: If the case was silver, white or even glossy black it would be so much better.
The aluminium case was originally silver (I own the grandfather of that red behemoth).

http://www.toptenreviews.com/i/rev/ce/large_box_shot/ce9883-l.jpg

Since then it's been silver/red, red/red, black/black, blue/black... take your pick.

http://dodevice.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/dell-xps-710-h2c.jpg

Sadly, gamers like their machines pimped out so there are these LEDs on the front and back that you can set to any color. I set mine to white before I disabled them.

I prefer Mac Pros for their processing power, by the way. ;)
They're nice, but the Apple tax soars to 50% on the Pros. I'd be OK with 15-20% Apple tax for the ability to run an extra OS, but 50%? Come on. I still think I'm getting an MBP, but the MP deal is sooooo off.

[DMann]

The premium??? So you are blaming Microsoft instead of hardware vendors like Dell and HP?

In that case, maybe I'll blame Apple because my HP printer isn't working.

Apple makes both, and integrates the OS and software with the hardware they sell, saving time and hassle - this is worth something. When Apple sold Laserwriters, they had no problem working with Macs either. An HP printer not working? I've never had a problem with over 9 models - you might want to Google it, or, as a last resort, contact HP.

[dejo]

Apple hasn't certified your HP printer to work. As soon as there is a "Vista Ready" sticker on a computer, it has been certified by Microsoft. Are you saying that Microsoft is lax in its approvals of Dell and HP hardware, which all bear this sticker ?

If Microsoft stamps it, Microsoft is to blame.
Which brings to mind the whole "Vista Capable" lawsuit wherein it was learned that Intel pressured Microsoft into allowing that sticker on machines that they knew were not good enough to run Vista.

[whitefang]

Apple hasn't certified your HP printer to work. As soon as there is a "Vista Ready" sticker on a computer, it has been certified by Microsoft. Are you saying that Microsoft is lax in its approvals of Dell and HP hardware, which all bear this sticker ?

If Microsoft stamps it, Microsoft is to blame.

How many 17" macbook owners are complaining about the vertical lining issue, the screen issue, and other issues right after launch? Apple put the NVidia cards. Are you saying Apple is lax in the QA department? Did they do any testing at all? It's a wide-spread issue, just look at the apple forums.

[whitefang]

Which brings to mind the whole "Vista Capable" lawsuit wherein it was learned that Intel pressured Microsoft into allowing that sticker on machines that they knew were not good enough to run Vista.

Again, 99% of the "low-end" machines with the "Vista capable" stickers can run Vista perfectly fine. It's just that the machines come with so much bloatware and crap installed, it slows Windows down and all the components. It would slow OS X down if OS X had bloatware installed too! Yet Vista gets blamed.

The thing with UAC is that Windows come with the "minimal" set of programs and requires configuration. Each time you configure/install, the UAC prompt comes up. The same would happen to OS X but OS X comes with a set of programs so the issue is less than UAC.

If you want to compare Vista to OS X, and PC to Mac, then do a fair comparison. Start with very high-end machines, and properly installed/configured OSes. Windows wins productivity everytime, OS X wins ease of use.

[mosx]

Just this comment here shows your complete lack of knowledge about the POWER architecture and what it is used for. You think those kid toys that are the consoles are the only thing using it ? No, they're simply used to offer volume and lower R&D margins on shipped processors.

Hmm the consoles are kids toys? Well, I hate to break it to you but the average "kid" playing an Xbox360 or PS3 is the 18-35 year old male. Even better is the fact that the average age is getting older because they're not stopping their gaming as they get older.

Don't forget the fact that theres more console gamers out there than there are Mac users total ;)

In fact, the average age is now 35 http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2008/07/17/survey:-average-u.s.-gamer-age-35%3B-40%25-are-women

The POWER architecture is used today in most big computation solutions, in scientific arenas. It is perfect for that task, moreso than ia-32 and x86-64. If you really think Athlon's are the pinacle of processor design and power, you're again just spouting anecdotes and opinion as fact, which is why you are labelled a troll around these parts.

Go to ibm.com and read up on POWER.

Yeah I'm going to go to IBM and read all of their sales pitch material regarding a product they sell to convince myself its a good product. Next, would you like me to go to Intel.com and read about how great their GPUs are? :rolleyes:

If The PowerPC architecture is so much better than Intel architecture, why did Apple completely abandon it? Why did the old MacBook Pros and iMacs run circles around the PowerPC G5 based Macs available at the time? Why have most Linux distros that supported PowerPC architecture abandoning their projects if they haven't already? I've been googling for a few minutes here trying to find interesting ways PowerPC is still being used. The only thing I can find is that the next generation "POWER7" MIGHT be considered to be used in a single super computer. AMD and other processors are being considered for the same project.

Apple is merely ahead of where the rest of the PC market is going: in December 2008, it was reported that Windows has now also crossed the "50% laptops" threshold.

By a mere 100,000 units. Thanks in large part to netbooks.

As I've said before, Apple's notebook sales are only so high because they have an awful desktop lineup.

"Invasion", sure. Why it's a veritable stampede!

I count two dual-platform users who defend Windows to (X) degree... mosx and yours truly. That's, what, a ratio of 100:1? 200:1?

We can't really help that this is a sensitive stuff to the Mac faithful, that these MS ads represent to them what the Muhammad drawings represented to Muslims.

hahaha Exactly!

And how many HP, Dell and Sony all-in-ones have you seen in the wild?

The difference is that other vendors add an all-in-one to the lineup for the minority of customers who might like them - not because of an almost religious zeal that an all-in-one is the right form factor for a desktop.

Sony's an odd case, but they're mainly a consumer gadget manufacturer, not a computer maker. (Hmmm. See the parallel?)

Exactly. I've only seen one HP All-in-one in the wild, and that was at Fry's last weekend. They had one model set up and nobody was using it. Everyone else was interested in the notebooks and standard tower desktops, even the models costing more than the all-in-one. The Apple section was largely empty, minus the people looking at iPods.

So what you're saying is, your mission is to stop people from buying Macs and steer them towards Windows. This is fascinating, for the same reason that the MS commercials are.

No, I want people to make informed decisions.

5 years ago any employee of Microsoft would have laughed at the thought of Apple being a threat, or even a competitor. Apple was nothing more than a tiny 2% market share player that wouldn't even license its OS to any other manufacturer. No threat at all.

I can't really see what's changed. Sure, Apple's market share has increased slightly, but not a lot. Why is MS suddenly making commercials like this, backed by legions of people like you? I would have thought Linux is more of a threat. It would only take a great marketeer like Jobs to come along with a polished distro. The world is ready to give up Microsoft.

As Aidenshaw pointed out with a link, Apple is still at single digit marketshare in the US and worldwide. Apple's marketshare would have to increase by about 5x at the same time Microsoft's would have to drop by nearly half for Apple to be a real threat to Microsoft in the US. Worldwide, Apple's marketshare would have to increase by about 25x while having Microsoft drop by half.

But that won't happen because Apple is flat out ignoring emerging markets because the citizens of those countries can't afford to buy vanity computers.

Maybe its just that they're running scared and are trying to fight fires from all angles, because Vista is such a disaster.

Really? Thats why over 300 million Vista licenses have been sold so far?

How many copies of Leopard have been sold?

That one has been covered 10 times over on this discussion so I'm not going to dwell on it. Take out the word "don't" and you've pretty much answered your own question.

Not really, because you don't get what you pay for with a Mac. Apple advertises the Mac as a well built all-in-one solution that is faster than the rest and can do everything you'd ever want it to. And thats simply not true. First of all, they're not faster than much cheaper PCs. They can't do everything those cheaper PCs can, and in many ways, they're not built as well as those cheaper PCs either.

My brand new MacBook Pro 17" running Leopard is putting a big smile on my face. (That smug Mac person's smile you really hate).

Good for you. You spent $2,799 on a computer thats less powerful than one that would have cost you about $1400. You just paid a $1300 Apple Tax for a less powerful and less capable system.

And I'll take the 24" screen I'm using right now over any Apple display, notebook or otherwise ;)

My 2.5 year old MBP is on eBay at the moment, and its doing very nicely thank you, despite the recession. Lots of watchers, bids already. My friend sold his MB last week and was stunned by the price he got. His iMac is currently listed and is looking like it will exceed his expectations.

And how many of those are buying their first Mac? I guarantee you that every bidder is someone who has already bought into the Apple hype and not an average person ;)

You may not like it, but there are lots of people out there who aspire to own a Mac, and there always will be.

Like I was. Then I got it, saw how things really were, and wish I could get rid of the thing.

I want Apple to remain a profitable and financially healthy company, but I don't want them to increase their market share, because in order to do that they'd have to go for the high volume, low cost end of the market and build boring business boxes. And then they'd stop being the Apple I know and love.

Yeah, let's all hope Apple continues on the same path with no change. Let's all hope they keep screwing all customers in favor of maintaining that 3% worldwide marketshare, rather than doing the intelligent thing and appealing to everyone.

Mosx obviously loves hand built, spare parts bin PCs on the cheap. He doesn't care about spending an afternoon trying to track down the exact part that just failed in order to RMA it to one of 10 different manufacturers that participated in his box. It is folly to think someone would rather just have to deal with 1 manufacturer who will do it all for free under warranty because he sold the entire thing to you. Time is of no value to this man and thus shouldn't be of value to anyone else

Ah, another failed argument.

Spare parts bin PC parts? I don't think so. When I build my PCs, with the exception of optical drives, all of the parts I use have better standard warranties than Apple's extended warranty. I can build a PC with the fastest, highest quality components, and best warranties out of the box and still come in at half (or even less) the cost of an equal Apple product.

Another amazingly bad part of your argument is the time argument. Heres a perfect example:

A friend of mine bought her MacBook before her and I met and became friends. She bought the black MacBook with AppleCare. A year and a half into owning it, the HDD started to fail. So she took it for service. She was without her MacBook for an entire week just for a HDD swap. On top of that, she ended up spending another $150 for an external drive (Apple would only use one of the drives they sold) and the service for data recovery. A full WEEK. If she had come to me (this happened after we met), her data could have been recovered for free AND she could have had an upgraded HDD for half the cost and it would have all taken no more than a couple of hours for data recovery and software installation and about 5 minutes to physically swap the drives.

And look at what happened to my first Mac. In it the optical drive went bad. It took a full THREE WEEKS of failed repairs on Apple's part to finally get things right. If it wasn't for the fact that you had to perform major system surgery on the plastic MacBook, which would have voided the whole system warranty, and buy a ridiculously expensive drive (about $200 at that time), I could have done it myself in just a matter of minutes.

With the iMac, Mac mini, MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro, you have to deal with Apple's support. Which means you're out of the game for at least a week, if not longer depending on how sub-par their service center feels like performing. With the Mac Pro, if one of the non-user replaceable parts fails, you still have to deal with Apple's support.

With a custom built PC, if something fails you're only out for as long as it takes you to get that new part. Let's say a motherboard dies. I can get in the car and drive to Fry's and get a motherboard for only a few dollars more than it would cost at newegg and be back up and running all in a couple of hours time. The drive to Fry's would take longer than anything else. If the motherboard in an iMac dies, you're out of the game for a week.

The good thing about buying quality PC components is that they're not likely to fail until you're ready to upgrade anyway. And when they do fail you have the choice of RMA'ing it under warranty or just taking the opportunity to upgrade.

With an Apple product, with very few exceptions, you have to deal with Apple directly no matter what. If the display in my iMac dies out of warranty I'm basically SOL, unless I want to use the all-in-one system with an external display. But have fun getting that to work since OS X extends the desktop by default. If the motherboard in my iMac dies out of warranty, I can't just go swap it with any board that will fit the case specifications. Nope, have to go through Apple or buy an extremely overpriced replacement part from a 3rd party.

So in reality, your argument completely fails. Because by going with a PC you both save time AND money.

Windows 95 will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows 95 OSRB will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows 98 will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows 98 SE will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows ME will fix everything. Just hold on...

Windows NT 4.0 will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows 2000 will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows XP will fix everything. Just hold on...
Windows Vista will fix everything and look pretty while doing it this time, honest. Just hold on...

It's the same BS story everytime there's a BETA release. All the MS fanbots are all over the thing, scream at how it's : stable, fast, slim, awesome looking. Then it ships... I've been stuck listening to them for the last 15 years. Heck, I was one of them, having participated in the Windows 98 Beta and finding it awesome. Funny how that turned out.

And what was there to fix with those OSes? Windows 95 brought pre-emptive multi-tasking to consumer OSes nearly 6 years before Mac OS had it. Windows NT had multi-processor support before Mac OS did, but not like that would have mattered anyway considering Mac OS up until OS X had co-operative multi-tasking.

As someone who has been using Windows since 3.0, I've never had any of the problems that Apple and the fanboys claim Windows has had. Sure it hasn't been 100% problem free. But the problems I did have were in the 90s and caused by me being overly cheap at that time and buying low quality hardware. Since I started buying good hardware, which I came to find out had minimal cost difference, I've had very few issues with Windows. Any issue with Windows these days would boil down to poorly written 3rd party software screwing things up. Or certain pieces of software, I'm looking at you iTunes+Quicktime, trying to take over the entire system and the user not wanting that to happen but the software being designed to do so no matter what.

I mean, in reality, all of these so-called problems that Windows has and needs fixing... it all only exists in the minds of Apple's marketing department and the minds of Apple fanboys who have no real Windows experience.

that is NOT the person that the macbook, the mini or the imac was made for. You are who the Mac Pro is for, and maybe the MacBookPro (which has a few more upgrades than the Macbook if you order online)

Actually, no. The Mac Pro and MacBook Pro are not for me. I'm too intelligent to buy them. I'm most certainly not going to spend several thousand dollars on a Mac Pro when I can get 90% of the processing power for about $700. And I'm certainly not going to buy a MacBook Pro at any price when I can get more power, more options, and more capabilities for around $1300 in a PC.

The other 3 are for the regular user. The folks that don't need superfast, hyper charged graphics etc. Why has Apple downgraded the graphics in the mini and the imac you asked. because they weren't being used. I will bet my rent money for the month (and I live in LA so that's not chup change) that 95% of 20" and lower end 24" imacs have been going to folks that wanted to email, web surf, maybe use the webcam to talk to family, organize photos and sync my ipod.

No sensible person is going to spend $1500 on an iMac when a PC that does everything the same, with the same size yet higher quality screen, can be had for less than half that amount.

If someone wants to just browse the web, sync their iPods, and play with digital pictures, a $500 PC from Walmart with a $250 24" 16x9 screen will do that just fine. I mention 16x9 because Apple's screens are all 16x10 and are bad for movies. People love their movies. The best part about that is the cheap PC will have a DVD writer, it will have a similar amount of RAM and storage space, and a relatively decent processor for the money.

so Apple pulls back the parts cause the more expensive ones are needed. in some cases, ups the harddrive size or some other tradeoff. in others just adds the savings into the profit till (what you didn't know that Apple is trying to make lots of money. like every other business)

Do you realize how cheap HDDs are? Or how cheap high quality displays are these days? By going with the 9400M in the entry 24" iMac, I would bet Apple is making more of a profit off that system than they did the previous generation unit just because HDDs are dirt cheap and the 9400M takes care of the entire system chipset plus GPU for only a few dollars on top of what the Intel chipset itself would have cost.

t's only when folks like Pystar build a whole company out of it that it's an issue.

And thats only because Pystar shows Apple's ridiculous pricing schemes ;)

So given this detail, why should they market everything to the power users. why should they strive to make that small group happy and maintain a tiny cut of the market when they can look to the other 98% of the folks out there. the ones that will buy into the fact that there's more to the cost than just the computers innards and buy a laptop for $1300 + tax to do basic tasks and let the kiddies play a few games.

It's not about power users at all. It's about giving people CHOICE. THe CHOICE to buy what THEY want and use it how THEY want. Not at all about catering to the "power users".

The whole argument here and with these Microsoft ads is that you simply have NO choice with Apple. You either have to buy what they tell you you need or want or nothing at all. Thats the problem.

Oh, and like I said before, the average gamer is 35 years old ;) Far from being a "kiddie".

last report I saw was that the world market share was just under 10% and had gone down perhaps 1/2 of a percent.

why don't you illuminate us with a full time line of the numbers (with sources would be very nice).

Again, I'd like to thank Aidenshaw for the numbers posted already. http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/02/mac-market-share.ars

I also want to say one last thing..

People tend to claim that Apple uses high end hardware thats better than PCs. Well, thats kind of funny to me. In my MacBook I have a Hitachi HDD, LG DVD writer, LG screen, Intel processor, and nvidia chipset. in my HP I have a Fujitsu HDD, LG DVD writer, LG screen, Intel processor, Intel chipset, and nvidia GPU. In the Dell Studio XPS 13 you'll find one of the same screens by the same manufacturers used as Apple, same DVD writers (Panasonic and LG), same HDDs, same nvidia chipset, same Intel processor.. need I go on?

Macs are the exact same hardware put in a prettier yet more poorly built enclosure.

[KnightWRX]

How many 17" macbook owners are complaining about the vertical lining issue, the screen issue, and other issues right after launch? Apple put the NVidia cards. Are you saying Apple is lax in the QA department? Did they do any testing at all? It's a wide-spread issue, just look at the apple forums.

You're talking about a bug in software Apple wrote. How does this relate at all with Microsoft's certification program, where they don't produce anything, just certify it ?

[whitefang]

You're talking about a bug in software Apple wrote. How does this relate at all with Microsoft's certification program, where they don't produce anything, just certify it ?

There's no excuse for Apple not discovering this bug especially since it's very "obvious" bug. Are you telling me that all apple consumers are beta-testers for Apple????

Microsoft can certify those machines because when properly configured/installed, Vista works fine on those machines. Can you not read? I said before, most of those machines comes with bloatware which will slow down ANY OS. Microsoft certified the HARDWARE not the bloatware. Get your facts straight.

[r.j.s]

Everyone needs to move here. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=7437376#post7437376) This one is old.

[-hh]

See, that's the thing: any machine from the last 7 or 8 years will be fine for 90% of the users out there looking to use their iPod, surf the net, and do Office-type stuff. That's why netbooks have gotten so popular. A Pentium M from 5 years ago benchmarks faster, but for many things, it doesn't matter.

Agreed, although personally, I just wouldn't necessarily reach back that many years, particularly for laptops (as they get physically beaten up).

That's why people looking at Macs as being a rip-off because they don't have the raw power (be it CPU or GPU) as a similarly priced PC don't get it.

The paradigm is that they've been eating hamburger for so long, they have no concept that there's any other cut of beef...they simply say "Hamburger is Hamburger" and buy it as a commodity (price).

Precisely what the MS Ad's G-guy did...and thus, tried to reenforce this product perception.

Many people don't want a Mac for those reasons, they want it for the experience. They want to have everything work together, with a minimal amount of hassle. They want the experience.

They like the way OS X works, plain and simple. And if that's what they like, then let them like it. It's their choice if they want to overpay for a Mac. It's not up to any one like Mosx and PR5Owner to tell them they're "wrong" or are getting "ripped off".

You mean there's cuts of beef besides hamburger? No, that can't be right. ;)

I still have my 400mhz G4 TiBook. It runs Entourage, Word, Excel, and Firefox all while playing a DVD full screen without a single stutter.

I suspect that more and more users are starting to catch on too...hence the rise of Netbooks...and on a slightly different angle, its also partly why an old G4 Mac Cube still sells for $150.


Somewhere i read that the majority of MS's profits are from oem installs.

Not to contest this, but to redirect: its not only about where MS is making money, but also where their lost moneymaking opportunities are. Thus, one major competitor to selling another copy of Windows is the pirated copy of Windows...that's clearly a lost revenue opportunity for MS.

And thus, what makes this MS Advertising campaign particularly interesting is that they're now actually making the effort to focus on Apple...does this perhaps suggest that the Mac OS market share is now threatening to become larger than the pirated Windows OS market share?


-hh

[KnightWRX]

Hmm the consoles are kids toys? Well, I hate to break it to you but the average "kid" playing an Xbox360 or PS3 is the 18-35 year old male. Even better is the fact that the average age is getting older because they're not stopping their gaming as they get older.

Don't forget the fact that theres more console gamers out there than there are Mac users total ;)

In fact, the average age is now 35 http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2008/07/17/survey:-average-u.s.-gamer-age-35%3B-40%25-are-women

You don't have to lecture me on who buys console. I'm an avid console gamer and over 30 myself. Guess what, it's still a Kid's toy. Us people over 30 don't mind saying so. It's not as if being kids for a few hours while playing a game is a very bad thing.

[Sehnsucht]

They're nice, but the Apple tax soars to 50% on the Pros. I'd be OK with 15-20% Apple tax for the ability to run an extra OS, but 50%? Come on. I still think I'm getting an MBP, but the MP deal is sooooo off.

I know. :( I really want to set up a graphic design studio with at least one MP, but it looks like the only way I'm getting the money is to sue someone for a million bucks and win. Or win the lottery. :D

[-hh]

not really, becuase part overclocking is ensuring the CPU is cooled properly (not using stock heatsink) my e8400 has a tuniq tower HSF (the HSF is so big it can cool the e8400 passively)

Ummm...and how do I get that heatsink into a laptop?
Thanks, but no thanks.

...i have yet to see a computer die from overclocking. the only CPU that did die that ive seen is my friend tightening a water block on too tight and cracking the die. that is only a result of stupidity not heat.

Sorry, but that's incorrect. Logically, all tasks that are required to implement overclocking (and I'm assuming that this one was) are part of the cumulative 'risk of loss', which feed into the final Risk:Benefit assessment. Thus, your friend's error counts, as well as the cost of whatever had to be replaced, plus all that downtime while awaiting replacement parts, etc, etc.


-hh

[-hh]

It's not about power users at all. It's about giving people CHOICE. THe CHOICE to buy what THEY want and use it how THEY want. Not at all about catering to the "power users".

The whole argument here and with these Microsoft ads is that you simply have NO choice with Apple. You either have to buy what they tell you you need or want or nothing at all. Thats the problem.

Bogus alert.

Every consumer has a choice: the choice to buy any Windows machine, or to buy any Apple machine.

The lack of thousands of permutations for hardware is a limitation when making the Mac OS choice, but that's merely part of the trade-off. You get that hardware gradation feature on HP, Dell, etc...but then you have no choice to run (legally) anything other than Windows OS.

Thus, name your poison: choice in hardware but not OS, or choice in OS but not in hardware. Life isn't fair...suck it up and move on.

I also want to say one last thing..

People tend to claim that Apple uses high end hardware thats better than PCs. Well, thats kind of funny to me. In my MacBook I have a Hitachi HDD, LG DVD writer, LG screen, Intel processor, and nvidia chipset. in my HP I have a Fujitsu HDD, LG DVD writer, LG screen, Intel processor, Intel chipset, and nvidia GPU. In the Dell Studio XPS 13 you'll find one of the same screens by the same manufacturers used as Apple, same DVD writers (Panasonic and LG), same HDDs, same nvidia chipset, same Intel processor.. need I go on?

Don't bother. What's missing from your list is that you don't know where the OEM has additional contract terms for those components. It may or may not relate to hardware features, for it can simply be ISO-9001 requirements.

And if you don't want to believe this, have a knowledgeable friend take you to your local Home Depot and then to Lowes or another similar supplier: when you know where to look, you'll find examples where the same exact Brand & Model # is sold at two different outlets, but when you actually dig into the details, you'll find that they're actually different items under the skin and label. Two examples that I'm personally familiar with are Timberline brand roofing shingles (measure the difference in height of the package ... they're using different weight felts) and some power tools (one has bushings where another has bearings).

Macs are the exact same hardware put in a prettier yet more poorly built enclosure.

Yet the key product differentiation for the consumer isn't the hardware, but the OS.

That's what the MS Advertisement is trying to obfuscate: they're trying to ignore the software and make it into a simple hardware 'commodity' comparison. And there's a large segment who will buy that hook, line and sinker ...which IMO appears to even includes you.



-hh

[-hh]

In that case, according to your "risk assessment", don't turn on your macbook. This is because turning it on will cause the micro-processor to heat up and could shorten the life of the processor. It also counts towards the "risk of loss".

Yes, you're correct that that is an objective risk. And to be pedantically balanced, there's even an objective risk incurred when one installs aftermarket RAM.

Some risks (such as turning the machine on to use it) are effectively unavoidable, since there would otherwise be no utility from the tool.

In the case of overclocking, the question isn't the normal 'unavoidable' risks, but what additional risks were being introduced by the decision to modify the hardware.

The corollary observation from this which people often overlook is that if there was no objective Benefit that resulted, then incurring any risk (no matter how small) would be divided by zero Benefit, which results in an 'infinite' unfavorable ratio condition.


-hh

[LagunaSol]

CNET on why this ad campaign fails:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10216245-37.html?tag=mncol;title

Ultimately the message is: "We know you really want a Mac, but you're just too poor/cheap. So how about this sticker-covered plastic brick instead with that unnamed OS that everyone hates? Did we mention it's cheap???"

A big problem with this campaign is this: most consumers out there are already familiar with cheap PCs and the pain of Microsoft Windows. They're buying Macs because they're tired of the Windows gauntlet of doom. All these ads are saying to them is "we know we suck, but at least it's an inexpensive kind of suck."

The Apple ads, on the other hand, tell people what most of them don't know: that they don't have to live with the Hell of Windows anymore.

[Goona]

Sorry, but that doesn't add ANY credibility (cnet is a joke). If you look at the history of the poster, you can see he is clearly an apple fanboi. The apple ads are nothing more than lies and vista bashing. In fact, I did not see a single apple commercial where they explain the useful features of OSX. Instead, they resort to barbaric lies. Apple is worse than Microsoft. In fact, this whole Microsoft commercials must be a way of "Microsoft making joke commercials just so it can laugh at Apple".

Most uninformed technically challenged consumers who are very cheap are familiar with the pain of Microsoft Windows DUE to bloatware and poor install/configuration. These are the same consumers who would never buy Apple.

So Apple couldn't bash Vista like the mainstream press and users who gave Vista the lowest satisfaction rating were doing? :rolleyes:

[DMann]

LOL at this dude. So now you want to insult people because they had problems with Vista, I mean they were just deluded, there was nothing wrong it. I mean from the mainstream press to bloggers on the net, to users giving it a bad reviews and low satisfaction ratings, they were all deluded, Vista was really good, there was nothing wrong with it. It was all in their imagination and also due to Apple's lies. :p:rolleyes:
Seems that the percentage of users satisfied with Vista has been undeniably low in 2008. For corporations, it's worse, with 8% of corporate users satisfied with Vista:

http://vista.blorge.com/2008/03/31/only-8-of-corporate-users-satisfied-with-vista/

This speaks volumes about Vista's reception, considering the alleged massive volumes of Vista distributed.

[Goona]

Seems that the percentage of users satisfied with Vista has been undeniably low in 2008. For corporations, it's worse, with 8% of corporate users satisfied with Vista:

http://vista.blorge.com/2008/03/31/only-8-of-corporate-users-satisfied-with-vista/

This speaks volumes about Vista's reception, considering the alleged massive volumes of Vista distributed.

Dude you don't know there's nothing wrong with Vista, it's all due to Apple's lies about it and it's in everyone's imagination.

[KnightWRX]

Hate to tell you this but 90-99% of windows problems link to those same things.... Very little is the OS itself. If you are going to using that argument for OSX then you have to accept it for windows as well.

I've never seen OS X having a problem where it takes forever to copy a file from a hard drive to the same hard drive. That was one of Vista's shipping bugs that didn't get addressed until SP1.

Pretty major if you ask me. :rolleyes:

[DMann]

Dude you don't know there's nothing wrong with Vista, it's all due to Apple's lies about it and it's in everyone's imagination.

Please, say it isn't so...

http://blip.tv/file/340692/

[AidenShaw]

I've never seen OS X having a problem where it takes forever to copy a file from a hard drive to the same hard drive. That was one of Vista's shipping bugs that didn't get addressed until SP1.

Pretty major if you ask me. :rolleyes:

And I've never had a Windows upgrade reformat any attached external drives on me.

(It's pointless to start a tit-for-tat about serious (or other) bugs, both sides have huge databases of examples of things that *should* have been caught.)

ps: I've never experienced the "infinite copy" bug, although it obviously happened.

[Goona]

Please, say it isn't so...

http://blip.tv/file/340692/

Goddamn this is some hilarious *****. :D

"The company who taught their users how to turn off their computers by pressing start."

[DMann]

Goddamn this is some hilarious *****. :D

"The company who taught their users how to turn off their computers by pressing start."

This was done, however inadvertently, to reflexively train them how to re-START.

[AidenShaw]

"The company who taught their users how to turn off their computers by pressing start."

On Windows, you go to the "Start" menu to initiate tasks and applications.

It makes perfect sense to "start" the task of shutting down the computer.

In any event, that's ancient history. Vista and Windows 7 just have the logo on the button, the five letters "S t a r t" are no longer present.

For me, it's always seemed ludricous that on Mac OS dragging a floppy into the "Trash" bin didn't delete the files on the floppy, but instead ejected it. Makes no sense at all.... ;)

[-hh]

It has to do with simplifying things as plainlanguage.gov explains.

So let's see you step up to the challenge of paraphrasing it accurately, but shorter, in the style you're suggesting to use.

Restated, in 5th Grader terms: "Put up or shut up". ;)

This is what his trying to do http://plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/9easysteps.cfm, it's obvious. It wasn't an insult, it was a recommendation.

Please. Risk Assessment methodologies are quite easy to expound on; this could easily be 3x the length simply by mentioning the RA dimensions of Probability and Consequence.

It wasn't an insult, it was a recommendation.

Sure it wasn't. Attacking the messenger instead of the message.

*sigh*, we sure were better off when you were on time-out.

But not yet: the ball is now in his court to show that what I wrote could be written shorter while still encompassing the same statements. I suspect that his challenge will be in trying to avoid also adding a condescending tone.


-hh

[wesk702]

For me, it's always seemed ludricous that on Mac OS dragging a floppy into the "Trash" bin didn't delete the files on the floppy, but instead ejected it. Makes no sense at all.... ;)

Just curious if you have even used a mac recently, because as soon as you hold down the left click on a cd, the 'trash' bin immediately turns into an 'eject' icon. You aren't dragging the cd to the trash at all. I'd see it as 'luDIcrous?' too, if it occurred the way you imagined.

and no... it does not make perfect sense to hit 'start' to initiate the task of shutting down. which vista forum did you get this off of?

[LagunaSol]

If you look at the history of the poster, you can see he is clearly an apple fanboi.

Of course. Anyone who doesn't wear a jeweled vial of Ballmer sweat around his neck is an Apple "fanboi," right? (Which you're probably clutching desperately right now)

The apple ads are nothing more than lies and vista bashing.

The only liar I see here is you. Tell me where the ads lie. UAC is intrusive: TRUE. Consumer PCs come loaded with crapware: TRUE. Consumer PCs needed hardware upgrades to run Vista sufficiently: TRUE. Macs come with better digital media software out of the box: TRUE. Apple Stores have a Genius Bar to help you out: TRUE. Vista comes in a baffling number of versions: TRUE. College students prefer Apple notebooks: TRUE. I could go on. And on. And on.

Just because you wish them to be untrue doesn't make it so. No matter how many tears you shed on your Ballmer pillow at night.


For me, it's always seemed ludricous that on Mac OS dragging a floppy into the "Trash" bin didn't delete the files on the floppy, but instead ejected it.)

wesk702 pointed out your obvious ignorance regarding OS X, but even funnier is your reference to floppy discs, which is so relevant to the topic at hand.

Oh wait, PC users still use floppy discs...

[jbernie]

Seems that the percentage of users satisfied with Vista has been undeniably low in 2008. For corporations, it's worse, with 8% of corporate users satisfied with Vista:

This speaks volumes about Vista's reception, considering the alleged massive volumes of Vista distributed.

With all due respect the average training provided to any user regardless of ability at most companies is likely to be:
1) desk
2) chair
3) phone
4) computer
5) this is your login
6) login to anything else

I think if you put any very average corporate Windows user in front of a machine with OSX they would struggle just as much, and you could get the same results.

[DMann]

Just because you wish them to be untrue doesn't make it so. No matter how many tears you shed on your Ballmer pillow at night. What a ghastly image! The pillow would need to be fully laminated to keep the moisture in.

Troll Different.
great sig!

[jbernie]

wesk702 pointed out your obvious ignorance regarding OS X, but even funnier is your reference to floppy discs, which is so relevant to the topic at hand.

Oh wait, PC users still use floppy discs...

really? I would need to go buy a USB floppy drive for my laptop if i did. and the point was relevant, you can't delete the content of most CDs or DVDs.

[LagunaSol]

And users who gave Vista bad reviews are technology inept (also proved by the mojave experiment by Microsoft).

Ah, so Vista really is "amazing." Which explains why Microsoft is scrambling to get its successor out the door, right?

Apparently an integral part of Microsoft's new marketing campaign is activating its Winbot sleeper cells on every Mac-related website and forum to start spouting their juvenile LAN-boy gibberish.

SMELL THE DESPERATION! :D

[DMann]

With all due respect the average training provided to any user regardless of ability at most companies is likely to be:
1) desk
2) chair
3) phone
4) computer
5) this is your login
6) login to anything else

I think if you put any very average corporate Windows user in front of a machine with OSX they would struggle just as much, and you could get the same results.

Perhaps, but for many corporate workers I speak with, after the purgatory they've suffered through with Windows for the past 14 years, OS X has become quite the respite.

[Eidorian]

Just curious if you have even used a mac recently, because as soon as you hold down the left click on a cd, the 'trash' bin immediately turns into an 'eject' icon. You aren't dragging the cd to the trash at all. I'd see it as 'luDIcrous?' too, if it occurred the way you imagined.

and no... it does not make perfect sense to hit 'start' to initiate the task of shutting down. which vista forum did you get this off of?

wesk702 pointed out your obvious ignorance regarding OS X, but even funnier is your reference to floppy discs, which is so relevant to the topic at hand.

Oh wait, PC users still use floppy discs...Take a trip down memory lane with Mac OS. X doesn't always mark the spot.

[DMann]

and the point was relevant, you can't delete the content of most CDs or DVDs.Which makes the original point that much more inane: dragging a CD over the trash wouldn't logically delete your files in the first place.

[vipergts2207]

For me, it's always seemed ludricous that on Mac OS dragging a floppy into the "Trash" bin didn't delete the files on the floppy, but instead ejected it. Makes no sense at all.... ;)

Did I wake up this morning in 1998 or something? :confused:

Oh and one other guy already pointed out that the trash can turned into an eject button.

[Razeus]

Third ad is now out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qui43P1kztw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rage3d.com%2Fboard%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D33943195%26page%3D9&feature=player_embedded

[vipergts2207]

Third ad is now out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qui43P1kztw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rage3d.com%2Fboard%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D33943195%26page%3D9&feature=player_embedded

Wow, I can't believe Microsoft mentioned Blu-ray in a commercial. :eek: I'd also like to know what the specs are on that "gaming computer."

[LagunaSol]

Wow, I can't believe Microsoft mentioned Blu-ray in a commercial. :eek:

Yeah, when do we get to see the ads where someone is in Best Buy shopping for a game console?

"Let's see, I could get this white one with the green (or red, depending on the minute) lighted circle on the front, or I could get this shiny black one....OOOHHH BLU-RAY!!!"

[LagunaSol]

Did I wake up this morning in 1998 or something?

There are diehard Windows users astroturfing here. Please understand they're a bit behind the times...

[Sehnsucht]

Third ad is now out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qui43P1kztw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rage3d.com%2Fboard%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D33943195%26page%3D9&feature=player_embedded

This one was much more tolerable. At least this time it wasn't an HP...Sony VAIOs are ridiculously better than HPs. :eek:

"Let's go look at the Macs...they are popular with this age." Oh, you silly wabbit, Macs are for kids!" :D :D

[LagunaSol]

Third ad is now out:

"Pssst, hey anonymous people - we'll give you FREE MONEY if you'll buy a Windows laptop..."

Now THERE'S brand confidence!

[Sehnsucht]

Apparently an integral part of Microsoft's new marketing campaign is activating its Winbot sleeper cells on every Mac-related website and forum to start spouting their juvenile LAN-boy gibberish.

Winbot sleeper cells...Microsoft botnets!!! That's a scary thought! :eek:

:D

[maclover001]

Third ad is now out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qui43P1kztw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rage3d.com%2Fboard%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D33943195%26page%3D9&feature=player_embedded

Maybe I'd rather go PC
People say that?

[Razeus]

well I have news for Microsoft.

I'm a PC. (personal computer)


It's just my operating system is a Mac.

[LagunaSol]

Winbot sleeper cells...Microsoft botnets!!! That's a scary thought!

And people foolishly thought Conficker didn't actually do anything last week...

[Goona]

With all due respect the average training provided to any user regardless of ability at most companies is likely to be:
1) desk
2) chair
3) phone
4) computer
5) this is your login
6) login to anything else

I think if you put any very average corporate Windows user in front of a machine with OSX they would struggle just as much, and you could get the same results.

What does that have to do with people having problems with Vista, why does Leopard have a significantly higher percentage?

[LagunaSol]

...is what happens after the cameras stop rolling.

Kid: "I'm a PC, and I'm 11."

Mom: "And I'm not....a PC. I have a 17" MacBook Pro at home. Let the kids use the cheap junk. Wait, what do you mean I can't say that? Fine, you can just edit it out later then. Whatever. Are we done here? Great. Thanks. Goodbye."

Mom and son head back into Best Buy, receipt in hand, for an instant $1500 rebate on a unibody MacBook. :D

Reminds me of the time MS offered a $300 instant rebate at Best Buy just to sign up for their lame Internet service. Problem was, in California it was understood (at the time) that they couldn't legally commit people to a specific amount of subscription time. So people were buying a bunch of stuff, getting their $300 rebate, then calling from the parking lot to cancel their service. There was literally a line of people outside the store waiting to screw MS out of 300 smackers.

Hell yeah, we were all PCs then. BEST MICROSOFT PROMOTION EVER!!!! LOL.

Sadly, MS recognized the error of their ways and retracted the offer a day or two later. I'd have loved to see Ballmer's sweat stains that week. "FLOTATION DEVICES TO THE CONFERENCE ROOM PLEASE!"

[pr5owner]

well I have news for Microsoft.

I'm a PC. (personal computer)


It's just my operating system is a Mac.

so what if you are dual booting windows and osx? are you a transvestite?

[pr5owner]

Third ad is now out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qui43P1kztw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rage3d.com%2Fboard%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D33943195%26page%3D9&feature=player_embedded

FFS EVERY SINGLE computer at best buy SUCKS, why the hell do they keep going there, in fact, theres nothing good in that entire freaking store.

[NoSmokingBandit]

FFS EVERY SINGLE comptuer at best buy SUCKS, why the hell do they keep going there, in fact, theres nothing good in that entire freaking store.

I really just lol'd at the ignorance of this post.

[pr5owner]

...is what happens after the cameras stop rolling.

Kid: "I'm a PC, and I'm 11."

Mom: "And I'm not....a PC. I have a 17" MacBook Pro at home. Let the kids use the cheap junk. Wait, what do you mean I can't say that? Fine, you can just edit it out later then. Whatever. Are we done here? Great. Thanks. Goodbye."

Mom and son head back into Best Buy, receipt in hand, for an instant $1500 rebate on a unibody MacBook. :D

Reminds me of the time MS offered a $300 instant rebate at Best Buy just to sign up for their lame Internet service. Problem was, in California it was understood (at the time) that they couldn't legally commit people to a specific amount of subscription time. So people were buying a bunch of stuff, getting their $300 rebate, then calling from the parking lot to cancel their service. There was literally a line of people outside the store waiting to screw MS out of 300 smackers.

Hell yeah, we were all PCs then. BEST MICROSOFT PROMOTION EVER!!!! LOL.

Sadly, MS recognized the error of their ways and retracted the offer a day or two later. I'd have loved to see Ballmer's sweat stains that week. "FLOTATION DEVICES TO THE CONFERENCE ROOM PLEASE!"

i dont know what to say, the fanboy is strong with you? why not drink a little more koolaid. maybe we can all be in your dream world of underpowered overpriced computers?

[pr5owner]

I really just lol'd at the ignorance of this post.

sorry but bestbuy only carries the low end consumer garbage
consumer level stuff is already garbage, but bestbuy carries the WORST of it.

name 1 thing at bestbuy and ill beat it with a better product for cheaper.

notice none of the "gaming" laptops at bestbuy have dual HDDs in raid 0 and dual video cards in SLI? because they are not high end

notice none of the desktops have GTX285s or GTX295s? why? they are all low grade *****

speakers? bose? please what a waste of my time, i would take energy over bose and energy is a cheap canadian brand. notice they dont carry wilson audio, genesis stuff? why? LOW END CRAP is only being sold.

usb flash drives? do they have anything over 200x? no?

cameras? no good DSLR? useless

MONSTER CABLE! OMG! best stuff ever! YAY! ALL AVALIBLE at best buy!

EDIT: actaully, what ive noticed is only ignorant people go to best buy becuase they dont know of any other place that exists for electronics. bestbuy has the worst products for the highest prices, but people arent smart enough to hop onto froogle and type in what they want.

[NoSmokingBandit]

sorry but bestbuy only carries the low end consumer garbage
consumer level stuff is already garbage, but bestbuy carries the WORST of it.


You know Best Buy sells macs, right?

[Sehnsucht]

So people were buying a bunch of stuff, getting their $300 rebate, then calling from the parking lot to cancel their service. There was literally a line of people outside the store waiting to screw MS out of 300 smackers.

I'd like to catch whoever wrote Conficker so I can collect Microsoft's $250K reward!!! Can you say Mac Pro/Xserve render farm with a heaping helping of cinema displays and Wacom Cintiq tablets? Oh yeah and throw in an Airport Extreme and a couple of MacBook Pros. :D :cool:

[DMann]

People say that?

What would be even less credible, would be to have them say: "Maybe we'd rather go Windows."

[vipergts2207]

sorry but bestbuy only carries the low end consumer garbage
consumer level stuff is already garbage, but bestbuy carries the WORST of it.

name 1 thing at bestbuy and ill beat it with a better product for cheaper.

notice none of the "gaming" laptops at bestbuy have dual HDDs in raid 0 and dual video cards in SLI? because they are not high end

notice none of the desktops have GTX285s or GTX295s? why? they are all low grade *****

speakers? bose? please what a waste of my time, i would take energy over bose and energy is a cheap canadian brand. notice they dont carry wilson audio, genesis stuff? why? LOW END CRAP is only being sold.

usb flash drives? do they have anything over 200x? no?

cameras? no good DSLR? useless

MONSTER CABLE! OMG! best stuff ever! YAY! ALL AVALIBLE at best buy!

EDIT: actaully, what ive noticed is only ignorant people go to best buy becuase they dont know of any other place that exists for electronics. bestbuy has the worst products for the highest prices, but people arent smart enough to hop onto froogle and type in what they want.

I will say that best buy is a fantastic place to buy televisions when you can find 12% off coupons online. And online at least, BB has Canon dslr's which I'm pretty sure are good, though I'm no photographer. And yes, Monster Cable is BS.

[LagunaSol]

maybe we can all be in your dream world of underpowered overpriced computers?

But by all your arguments on this thread, aren't Sony Vaios "underpowered overpriced computers?"

Why yes. Yes they are.

Have some more kool-aid.

what ive noticed is only ignorant people go to best buy

Sounds like the perfect place for someone looking for a Windows machine then.

So...what's the problem exactly?

[AidenShaw]

and no... it does not make perfect sense to hit 'start' to initiate the task of shutting down. which vista forum did you get this off of?

Obviously none, since Vista does not have a "start" menu.

It was a deliberate choice on my part to talk about "floppies" and "Mac OS" - since the "start menu" argument is so outdated.

[LagunaSol]

I'd like to catch whoever wrote Conficker so I can collect Microsoft's $250K reward!!! Can you say Mac Pro/Xserve render farm with a heaping helping of cinema displays and Wacom Cintiq tablets?

Sorry, that $250K must be spent on Windows PCs. From Best Buy. Where Microsoft is all about "choice." So long as the PC in question has Windows on it.

[DMann]

Sorry, that $250K must be spent on Windows PCs. From Best Buy. Where Microsoft is all about "choice." So long as the PC in question has Windows on it.

Little to no resale value with that deal.

[AidenShaw]

But by all your arguments on this thread, aren't Sony Vaios "underpowered overpriced computers?"


Well, Lisa and Jackson found a 16.4" VAIO with Blu-ray for under $1500 - so at least the "overpriced" is wrong ;)

Wow, I can't believe Microsoft mentioned Blu-ray in a commercial. :eek:

Why not - their operating system supports hardware-accelerated 1080p playback....

[Sehnsucht]

Did the part where the mom jokingly asks her son if he wanted the pink laptop crack anybody else up? :D And the really long pause where the poor kid doesn't respond?

Let's see, Microsoft has now insulted its own customers a total of five times. First they implied that PC buyers are poor and uncool, then they said PC users have no taste, and now they're saying that PC users are 11 years old and hiding in the closet.

:D :D

/sarcasm :cool:

[vipergts2207]

Why not - their operating system supports hardware-accelerated 1080p playback....

Apparently you don't know much about their console war with Sony, specifically the blu-ray hd-dvd portion of it. Hey I don't mind, advertisement for blu-ray is advertisement for Sony and I like Sony as much as I like Apple. I just think it's ironic is all.

[Eidorian]

Apparently you don't know much about their console war with Sony, specifically the blu-ray hd-dvd portion of it.Why is Sony selling notebooks with Intel processors running Microsoft Windows as the operating system again? :D

[Chappers]

We can't really help that this is a sensitive stuff to the Mac faithful, that these MS ads represent to them what the Muhammad drawings represented to Muslims.


hahaha Exactly!


Why am I not surprised by the fact that you two find that funny. And that fact, regarding material produced to incite a response says a lot about you both and what you are doing here. MS would probably be saddened to know that it has people like yourselves championing its cause.

I prefer the adverts.

[mosx]

You don't have to lecture me on who buys console. I'm an avid console gamer and over 30 myself. Guess what, it's still a Kid's toy. Us people over 30 don't mind saying so. It's not as if being kids for a few hours while playing a game is a very bad thing.

Hah yeah, consoles are kids toys. Thats why the majority of games sold are games like Grand Theft Auto 4, Halo 3, and Gears of War. Yup, definitely for kids ;)

Bogus alert.

Every consumer has a choice: the choice to buy any Windows machine, or to buy any Apple machine.

The lack of thousands of permutations for hardware is a limitation when making the Mac OS choice, but that's merely part of the trade-off. You get that hardware gradation feature on HP, Dell, etc...but then you have no choice to run (legally) anything other than Windows OS.

Thus, name your poison: choice in hardware but not OS, or choice in OS but not in hardware. Life isn't fair...suck it up and move on.

Lack of understanding alert.

Nothing says that you can't run any OS other than Windows on a Dell or HP. They just won't give you software support for any other OS than what your system shipped with or they offered to upgrade you to in the case of the early upgrade programs.

Don't forget that Dell and HP and other pre-built PCs are NOT your only choice when it comes to non-Apple hardware. Theres absolutely nothing stopping you from building your own system piece by piece and throwing whatever OS you want on it.

Again, this boils down to the lack of choice with Apple. It's either the iWay or the Highway. You have to buy what hardware they tell you that you want or nothing at all. If you're a consumer and you want a laptop, you're stuck with either a really poorly built plastic 13.3" notebook, a slightly less poorly built notebook thats even more expensive.. or you can go for the "Pro" machines which are really just really expensive consumer devices. Again, Apple offers no choice. I can't get a cheap 17" notebook through Apple nor can I get a truly "pro" system through them. ITs either the one system or nothing at all.

And you're right, people do have the choice to not buy Apple. And they don't. Thats why Apple's marketshare is so insignificant world wide and and so small in the US. People want choice and Windows PCs give them that choice.

What's missing from your list is that you don't know where the OEM has additional contract terms for those components. It may or may not relate to hardware features, for it can simply be ISO-9001 requirements.

So Apple somehow orders parts that are built to higher quality specifications? :rolleyes: Please. Look up the part numbers for your HDD and optical drive and such and you'll find they're no different than ones used in other systems. The only difference is that Apple gets a little Apple logo put on the stickers on their drives. Otherwise they are exactly the same.

And if you don't want to believe this, have a knowledgeable friend take you to your local Home Depot and then to Lowes or another similar supplier: when you know where to look, you'll find examples where the same exact Brand & Model # is sold at two different outlets, but when you actually dig into the details, you'll find that they're actually different items under the skin and label. Two examples that I'm personally familiar with are Timberline brand roofing shingles (measure the difference in height of the package ... they're using different weight felts) and some power tools (one has bushings where another has bearings).

You know, Best Buy, Fry's, Walmart, and Target all do this on a number of products too. You know why they do it? Not because they want technically different products, but so that way you can't go from Home Depot to Lowes and say "Home Depot has this product for this much, I want you to use your price matching policy on it". They do it so that way they can say "sorry, we don't carry that exact product". Best Buy and Circuit City started doing this YEARS ago. I mean years and years ago on computer products. You'd find the same exact computer in their fliers. Exactly the same down to the look and specs. The difference is that they'd have slightly different model numbers, off by one or two numbers. That way they could each say they didn't carry each others products and not match the prices.

Yet the key product differentiation for the consumer isn't the hardware, but the OS.

That's what the MS Advertisement is trying to obfuscate: they're trying to ignore the software and make it into a simple hardware 'commodity' comparison. And there's a large segment who will buy that hook, line and sinker ...which IMO appears to even includes you.

Yes it does include me. Why? Because, having used OS X for years now, I know for a fact from personal experience that it is entirely overrated and not nearly as capable as Windows is. The latest commercial makes it a point to mention "blu-ray", something OS X can not do. Something important to me, since I like movies.

You just have to accept the fact that OS X isn't all its cracked up to be and that its not as capable as Windows. These commercials show you get much more for your money all around.

CNET on why this ad campaign fails:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10...ag=mncol;title

Ultimately the message is: "We know you really want a Mac, but you're just too poor/cheap. So how about this sticker-covered plastic brick instead with that unnamed OS that everyone hates? Did we mention it's cheap???"

A big problem with this campaign is this: most consumers out there are already familiar with cheap PCs and the pain of Microsoft Windows. They're buying Macs because they're tired of the Windows gauntlet of doom. All these ads are saying to them is "we know we suck, but at least it's an inexpensive kind of suck."

The Apple ads, on the other hand, tell people what most of them don't know: that they don't have to live with the Hell of Windows anymore.

CNET? Nobody with any sort of real technical knowledge things of CNET as anything other than the equivalent of the Three Stooges of technology news sites. Their reviews and product insights are a joke. This proves it. They're playing into the Apple fanboys to drive up readership on their site to increase ad revenue.

You know, if people were truly that "tired" of Windows and really believed it was bad, as the overly vocal minority would have you believe, the average person could switch. But they don't. Because Windows does everything they need AND want it to do, unlike OS X.

I've never seen OS X having a problem where it takes forever to copy a file from a hard drive to the same hard drive. That was one of Vista's shipping bugs that didn't get addressed until SP1.

Pretty major if you ask me.

That "bug" was taken care of via hotfixes very early on. Had you actually known what you were talking about when it comes to Windows and not believing just Apple and the fanboys lies, you'd know this ;) It's only mentioned with SP1 because SP1 generally contains all fixes prior to release of the service pack.

I can tell you what OS X bugs I've encountered. My favorite was when I clicked "Burn" in Finder in a Burn Folder and the entire computer locked up. That was fun.

Tell me where the ads lie. UAC is intrusive: TRUE.

Not true. I only ever see UAC as often as I see a password prompt in OS X. You should try actually using Vista.

Consumer PCs come loaded with crapware: TRUE

Not true. The only "crapware" PCs come loaded with these days is usually a Norton trial and an Office trial. Don't forget that it wasn't too long ago that Macs shipped with both iWork and Office trials, the same amount of crapware as a PC.

Consumer PCs needed hardware upgrades to run Vista sufficiently: TRUE.

No more true than Macs needing upgrades to run Leopard. Leopard runs AWFUL on 1GB of RAM. I know from experience. Leopard and Vista both have very similar hardware requirements. Which is why both MS and Apple are focusing on optimization for their next major releases.

Let's not forget that Apple was still selling computers with 512MB of RAM standard while the rest of the industry had moved on to 1 and 2GB configurations as standard. Plus PC manufacturers were selling low end notebook systems with 1GB before Apple, and they cost less than Apple as well. Generally half as much.

You were much less likely to have to upgrade your PC to run Vista properly than you were to have to upgrade your Mac to run Leopard properly. I'm still in awe over how bad Leopard runs on 1GB of RAM.

Macs come with better digital media software out of the box: TRUE.

iPhoto doesn't do anything that Windows Photo Gallery doesn't do, other than the sometimes working sometimes not facial recognition. iMovie and iDVD? Please, I'll take the higher quality software that ships with any digital video camera.

Apple Stores have a Genius Bar to help you out: TRUE.

Because everyone lives near a Genius Bar. I live in southern California and the closest Apple store is 70 miles away! Plus the Genius Bar is useless. They look at the system and say "Oh we have to send this out for repair" so you're without the system for a week anyway.

Vista comes in a baffling number of versions: TRUE.

And starting at Vista Home Premium, all of which are more capable than OS X.

Windows 7 will only have 2 versions available to the general public. Home Premium and Pro. The rest will only be available for special orders.

College students prefer Apple notebooks: TRUE.

Because all of those college students getting their liberal arts degrees really know what they're doing! It has nothing at all to do with the fact that their parents are paying for everything and they wanted to conform and go along with the rest of the trendy students.

Now after they get their degree and they're working at McDonalds, lets see what computer they choose when they have to pay for it.

Ah, so Vista really is "amazing." Which explains why Microsoft is scrambling to get its successor out the door, right?

Apparently an integral part of Microsoft's new marketing campaign is activating its Winbot sleeper cells on every Mac-related website and forum to start spouting their juvenile LAN-boy gibberish.

SMELL THE DESPERATION!

What desperation?

By the time Windows 7 comes out, Vista will have been available for roughly 2.5 years. Thats a typical product cycle for MS. XP was the only exception to this rule. Every other product has had a 2-3 year product cycle.

As I said before, going by this logic, Apple is scrambling to get the successor to Leopard out for the same reasons. Leopard is bloated, slow, and has high system requirements. Snow Leopard is just like Windows 7, not too much new and most of the improvements under the hood.

[Wikinerd]

7 up - watch it fizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I'll wait till it actually comes out before I make any comments.

[KnightWRX]

sorry but bestbuy only carries the low end consumer garbage
consumer level stuff is already garbage, but bestbuy carries the WORST of it.

name 1 thing at bestbuy and ill beat it with a better product for cheaper.

Of course in your case, better is pretty subjective. :rolleyes:. Best buy is a retail outlet. I'm sure everyone of their products can be found cheaper if you're willing to order online. Some people prefer to have stuff the same day and encourage the local economy while their at it. Getting out in the sun and driving can also be a good by itself.

notice none of the "gaming" laptops at bestbuy have dual HDDs in raid 0 and dual video cards in SLI? because they are not high end

RAID 0, lol. Why buy a Laptop if you want dual HDDs and SLI video cards. That thing isn't even going to make it out the door with the battery still charged, even in sleep mode.

If you're that desperate for a high-end gaming rig, just save money and get a desktop. Not man enough to carry that big case to the lan party ?

[Wikinerd]

True that.

Life without Windows, since there are no walls

Invaluable.


Anyways I'm wondering if any of the Windows fanboys here can help me with this problem?

When I boot the computer displays "hal.dll is missing". I pop the disk in, transfered another copy in following an online guide; problem wasn't solved. Again, I pop the disk in, went for the "repair" option. Didn't work; now I'm stuck; the HDD is stuck inside the computer so I can't take it out and transfer the files, and I'm wondering how I can solve this. Maybe you can help me out.

[Wikinerd]

RAID 0, lol. Why buy a Laptop if you want dual HDDs and SLI video cards. That thing isn't even going to make it out the door with the battery still charged, even in sleep mode.

If you're that desperate for a high-end gaming rig, just save money and get a desktop. Not man enough to carry that big case to the lan party ?

Exactly what I was thinking; anything heavier than 6 pounds is way too heavy for any "portability". Anything more than that, you'll be better off with a desktop.

I don't [regularly] use Windows computers and I know that--

[-hh]

Thus, name your poison: choice in hardware but not OS, or choice in OS but not in hardware. Life isn't fair...suck it up and move on.
Lack of understanding alert.

Nothing says that you can't run any OS other than Windows on a Dell or HP.

"Nothing" that is, except for Apple's EULA.

Even if you don't want to honor the EULA as a valid contract, Michael Dell has had his company (Dell) is choosing to honor Apple's EULA, despite publicly expressing his desire to have OS X 3 years ago. (http://www.betanews.com/article/Dell-We-Would-License-Mac-OS-X/1118955105)

Theres absolutely nothing stopping you from building your own system piece by piece and throwing whatever OS you want on it.

Incorrect: there's evidence that it will not run as well (hence, Hackintosh patches) and the existence of the EULA means that there is not a zero risk of legal problems. And since DIY systems don't have a single-source Warranty, that's another hassle to consider in a trade-offs.

And since all 3 of these problems can be solved simply by throwing money at the problem (eg, paying the 'Apple Tax'), that also can be factored into a purchase decision.

Again, this boils down to the lack of choice with Apple. It's either the iWay or the Highway.

And my point is simply that "The Highway" is yet another choice.

You have to buy what hardware they tell you that you want or nothing at all.

Factually incorrect. You can go buy a Windows OS machine, or you can go buy an older used Mac OS machine.

And you're right, people do have the choice to not buy Apple. And they don't. Thats why Apple's marketshare is so insignificant world wide and and so small in the US. People want choice and Windows PCs give them that choice.

And Porsche doesn't make/sell pickup trucks ... but that doesn't stop people from buying what they do make.

What you don't want to accept is that no company is under any obligation to offer a complete line of products, to be "Everything to Everybody".

And if you haven't noticed, the "Everything to Everybody" business model has its flaws ... an example that you're now literally paying for ... is General Motors (GM).

So Apple somehow orders parts that are built to higher quality specifications? :rolleyes: Please. Look up the part numbers for your HDD and optical drive and such and you'll find they're no different than ones used in other systems.

And go to Home Depot (as I said) and compare part#s and they'll be "Identical" too.

You know, Best Buy, Fry's, Walmart, and Target all do this on a number of products too. You know why they do it? Not because they want technically different products... That way they could each say they didn't carry each others products and not match the prices.

That's another, different trick than what I'm referring to.

To clarify, the two tricks are:

a) Identical product, different Part# (what you're referring to)

b) Different product, identical Part# (what I'm referring to).

One of the things that I've done professionally (not for Apple) is to buy Products that have been tested & qualified to our higher in-house standards. Technically, one can go out and buy the "Same Part#" from our supplier, but that doesn't mean that the production lot really is an equal: occasionally, we'll reject a lot as not good enough for our needs, but because its "good enough" for other buyers, they'll sell it to others rather than scrapping it.

In some instances, we've caught vendors trying to "salt in" bad pieces from a failed inspection lot into one of our new production runs. There's all sorts of games manufacturers play like this, often because of how they choose to incentivize their line supervisors.


Yes it does include me. Why? Because, having used OS X for years now, I know for a fact from personal experience that it is entirely overrated and not nearly as capable as Windows is. The latest commercial makes it a point to mention "blu-ray", something OS X can not do. Something important to me, since I like movies.

You just have to accept the fact that OS X isn't all its cracked up to be and that its not as capable as Windows. These commercials show you get much more for your money all around.

Sorry, but I currently use both OS's daily...and have been for at least a decade. Its your prerogative to conclude that for your needs that there's no differentiation, just as it is mine that there is. In both cases, we decide on our own how much we're willing to pay for the level of differentiation that we see and put value upon. This is classical "Adam Smith" stuff.

If you don't see adequate value for yourself in OS X, then don't buy it.
Yes, you have a choice...and so do I.


iPhoto doesn't do anything that Windows Photo Gallery doesn't do...

iPhoto handles RAW files better, and it has more output options, such as hard stock cards and books (photo albums). The combination of iPhoto and a first grandchild is essentially why my one brother finally gave up on Windows last month and got a new 24" iMac.


-hh

[Wikinerd]

I have no sympathy for people who hang on to their 6-year-old computer as their only computer and then watch in horror when they install the latest operating system (or at least try to) and their computer bursts into flames. A question, why do people try to prove the superiority of one operating system over another based on which one runs "best" on a couple megabytes of RAM? Please name me one operating system out there that isn't a BITCH to deal with running on outdated hardware. Windows XP on a beige Dell with 128 MB RAM? Hellish. :eek: Leopard on a PowerMac with 512 MB RAM? Sloooooow! (Although for some strange reason, actually booted faster than my 6+ month old iMac with 4 GB). :confused:

And Microsoft might "support" Windows 2000, (probably from a call center in India) but good-effing-luck trying to find any modern software that will run on it. At work, I get the occasional octogenarian customer who still has an old 98/ME box and feels the need to bitch me out because my store doesn't carry any new printers (using parallel ports) that will work with his ancient P.O.F.S. :D :D

A more adequate comparison: running Vista on 256GB DDR RAM, 1st gen Pentium 4 processors.. funn**

[WeegieMac]

I made a little picture for you - to help you understand - mosx would be proud of you

Excellent, a screenshot ... just in case he thinks I made up the specs I read off the side of the Leopard box.

:D

[-hh]

Haha, no you didn't ... stop backtracking just because you ******** up.

Plus, some of us are watching him trying to ignore that "plain english" rewrite articulation challenge.

But no, you decided to leap onto my first point about having never had to upgrade the hardware to run the latest version of OS X and spouted some nonsense about Leopard and PowerPC Macs.

Time then to include this screen shot, to show Leopard running on an actual PPC Mac:

[Wikinerd]

Well you can count me out of the "Apple crowd" in that regard. :cool:

And as for having to replace the machine, no *****. If the computer is 5 - 6 years old, it's high-effing-time for a new computer anyway, incompatible OS upgrade or not. :D

That being said, I've used several old Power Macs (running Tiger) that I've found surprisingly usable for things like Photoshop. Not to mention that when it's time to sell, you can easily get $500+, whereas nobody would pay five bucks for a PC the same age. :D

+1

I would naturally want a new one in about half that time (~3 years), since computer graphics software are some of those that would require computing power.

[4D4M]

No, I want people to make informed decisions.

Ill-informed more like.

As Aidenshaw pointed out with a link, Apple is still at single digit marketshare in the US and worldwide. Apple's marketshare would have to increase by about 5x at the same time Microsoft's would have to drop by nearly half for Apple to be a real threat to Microsoft in the US. Worldwide, Apple's marketshare would have to increase by about 25x while having Microsoft drop by half.

But that won't happen because Apple is flat out ignoring emerging markets because the citizens of those countries can't afford to buy vanity computers.

Way to completely ignore what I said and go off on a tangent! I was AGREEING with you - Apple's market share is insignificant and not likely to get much higher. So why is Microsoft so scared?

Really? Thats why over 300 million Vista licenses have been sold so far?

How many copies of Leopard have been sold?

There you go again, trying to deflect Vista's relative failure onto OS X. Of course a release of Windows is going to dwarf a release of Mac OS, nobody is disputing that. But it's well documented that Vista's reception from both critics and users was disappointing. Everybody knows people who haven't upgraded because of the bad press or who have gone back to XP because they can't get on with Vista.

Not really, because you don't get what you pay for with a Mac. Apple advertises the Mac as a well built all-in-one solution that is faster than the rest and can do everything you'd ever want it to. And thats simply not true. First of all, they're not faster than much cheaper PCs. They can't do everything those cheaper PCs can, and in many ways, they're not built as well as those cheaper PCs either.

It simply IS true. My Mac does everything I want it to, and it does it faster than a PC, because OS X is a joy to use and doesn't get in the way and piss me off with stupid popups like Vista does.

Good for you. You spent $2,799 on a computer thats less powerful than one that would have cost you about $1400. You just paid a $1300 Apple Tax for a less powerful and less capable system.

Actually I spent more than that, I live in the UK. And it was worth every penny. Not only is it a work of art, it makes my job a pleasure to do. A much better user experience than a crappy PC.

And how many of those are buying their first Mac? I guarantee you that every bidder is someone who has already bought into the Apple hype and not an average person ;)

You guarantee? Where is your evidence? Ever considered that maybe eBay buyers are those who want to dip their toes in without splurging on a brand new one?

Your use of the phrase "bought into the Apple hype" is ironic, given your use of the phrase "Apple Tax". Shows you are just buying into the Microsoft hype in the latest ad.

Like I was. Then I got it, saw how things really were, and wish I could get rid of the thing.

Wish you would.

Yeah, let's all hope Apple continues on the same path with no change. Let's all hope they keep screwing all customers in favor of maintaining that 3% worldwide marketshare, rather than doing the intelligent thing and appealing to everyone.

I sincerely hope so.

[-hh]

mosx: Like I was. Then I got it, saw how things really were, and wish I could get rid of the thing.

Wish you would.

MacRumors has a Forum (http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=132) for people looking to sell their unwanted gear.

mosx does know about it. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=581154&highlight=mosx) Apparently, he was soured by a cracked case problem on a mid-2007 Macbook in October 2008 (a year after purchase?)...even though Apple apparently fixed (replaced?) it for free (or under AppleCare), which apparently ended his interest in dumping it.

In any case, if its still running OK, I'll offer $200 for that 2007 MacBook right now...and offer an extra $100 if mosx also closes down his MacRumors account too. And if he provides proof of age, I'll throw in a case of Belgian Beer, too. ;)


-hh

[LagunaSol]

...and offer an extra $100 if mosx also closes down his MacRumors account too.[/I];)

Better yet, MacRumors needs a trollblock button. Whitefang is filling the pipes with idiocy too. Both these tools need to be blocked from my view - I have no time for their stupidity. Let these mindless Winbots go commiserate with their ilk on the Dell support forums, the Steve Ballmer Sweatclub, or some lame overclocking gamer board.

Gizmodo on the Dell Adamo:

"The Adamo is a bit of a strange beast. It's not as feathery as the Lenovo X301 or the MacBook Air, and even with that extra pound of heft, it's (overall) not as powerful as the MacBook Air—a computer that's incidentally cheaper than the Adamo in its base configuration."

So much for the Apple Tax...

[Chappers]

mosx does know about it. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=581154&highlight=mosx) Apparently, he was soured by a cracked case problem on a mid-2007 Macbook in October 2008 (a year after purchase?)...even though Apple apparently fixed (replaced?) it for free (or under AppleCare), which apparently ended his interest in dumping it.

In any case, if its still running OK, I'll offer $200 for that 2007 MacBook right now...and offer an extra $100 if mosx also closes down his MacRumors account too. And if he provides proof of age, I'll throw in a case of Belgian Beer, too. ;)

-hh

Apple gave him a unibody MB after that - which he still has. Obviously he could has sold it (it being brand new) but prefers to make up excuses for why he's kept it. Quite sad really

[pr5owner]

Plus, some of us are watching him trying to ignore that "plain english" rewrite articulation challenge.



Time then to include this screen shot, to show Leopard running on an actual PPC Mac:

i can run XP on a 9 year old computer, can you run leo on a 9 year old mac? (this i think would be a G3ish computer)

[brop52]

i can run XP on a 9 year old computer, can you run leo on a 9 year old mac? (this i think would be a G3ish computer)

G3 has no velocity engine. That means Leopard isn't supported. Besides graphics there isn't much difference between Tiger and Leopard (Time Machine). G3s run fine with Tiger. What's the point of spending money to upgrade to an OS that is worth more than the computer you run it on? I would hope your machine can run XP as it came out in 2001. Leopard came out in late 2007. They aren't even comparable.

[Eidorian]

G3 has no velocity engine. That means Leopard isn't supported. Besides graphics there isn't much difference between Tiger and Leopard (Time Machine). G3s run fine with Tiger. What's the point of spending money to upgrade to an OS that is worth more than the computer you run it on? I would hope your machine can run XP as it came out in 2001. Leopard came out in late 2007. They aren't even comparable.Power Mac G3 Blue & White + Tiger + Radeon 7000 PCI + PCI Extreme (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/OSX/quartz_extreme_PCI_mod.html) :cool:

[polaris20]

i can run XP on a 9 year old computer, can you run leo on a 9 year old mac? (this i think would be a G3ish computer)

How about comparing it to something relevant, like Panther, which came out a little after XP? Because yes, it runs on 9 year old PC's.

Oh and Tiger, that came out several years after XP, runs just great on my TiBook from 2001.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g4/stats/powerbook_g4_400.html

[-hh]

i can run XP on a 9 year old computer

I would certainly hope that you could run an 8 year old OS on a 9 year old computer!

can you run leo on a 9 year old mac? (this i think would be a G3ish computer)

The G3's were superseded with G4's circa 2000-2001.

The official minimum requirement from Apple for Leopard is a 867MHz or faster G4, which means that the G4 'Quicksilver' (introduced 2001.07.18) probably qualifies, which is only an 8 year old machine.

To turn the tables back to Windows, this would be like asking XP to run on an 8 year old PC, which would be 2001-8 = 1993. And a 1993 vintage PC would be approx a 66MHz Pentium, which falls well short of XP's official minimum of a 233 MHz Intel Pentium/Celeron family (with 300MHz recommended).

The exercise could be repeated for Vista: a 1999 PC (550-733 MHz Pentium III), versus an official minimum of 1 GHz (and support for DirectX 9 graphics and 32 MB of graphics memory would probably be a challenge too).

For Win7 to run on a 2002 PC (1.6-2.4GHz Pentium 4) will probably work, "but..." (http://dvice.com/archives/2009/02/windows_7_minim.php), plus this is probably illustrating more so that the rate of change for computer horsepower has flattened out.


-hh

[xbjllb]

I'd like to catch whoever wrote Conficker so I can collect Microsoft's $250K reward!!! :D :cool:

WHAT do you think Jobs left Apple to do? ;)

:apple:

[LagunaSol]

i can run XP on a 9 year old computer, can you run leo on a 9 year old mac? (this i think would be a G3ish computer)

-hh already shot you down on this silly question, but what I find amazing is that so many people (including me) are still running XP (an 8 year old OS) because Microsoft has failed to deliver anything better since.

This is when they say "your best days are behind you." And what, exactly, has Microsoft succeeded with since XP?

Live Search: destroyed by Google.
Plays For Sure: destroyed by Microsoft itself.
MSN Music: destroyed by anyone else who had an online music store.
Zune: destroyed by iPod.
Xbox 360: destroyed by the lowly Wii (and its own horrific failure rate).
Vista: destroyed by users who recognize it for the crap that it is.
Office 2007: a big seller I'm sure (due to long-term IT agreements with MS), with an interface that is more loathed than loved.
Windows Mobile: destroyed by iPhone, and soon by Pre as well. The sales numbers don't yet reflect it, but they're headed in that direction quickly.

This is a company that can't stand not to have its fingers in everyone's pie. And the lack of focus has resulted in a vast collection of mediocre to bad products.

Yep, their best days are behind them.

[skaertus]

-hh already shot you down on this silly question, but what I find amazing is that so many people (including me) are still running XP (an 8 year old OS) because Microsoft has failed to deliver anything better since.

This is when they say "your best days are behind you." And what, exactly, has Microsoft succeeded with since XP?

Live Search: destroyed by Google.
Plays For Sure: destroyed by Microsoft itself.
MSN Music: destroyed by anyone else who had an online music store.
Zune: destroyed by iPod.
Xbox 360: destroyed by the lowly Wii (and its own horrific failure rate).
Vista: destroyed by users who recognize it for the crap that it is.
Office 2007: a big seller I'm sure (due to long-term IT agreements with MS), with an interface that is more loathed than loved.
Windows Mobile: destroyed by iPhone, and soon by Pre as well. The sales numbers don't yet reflect it, but they're headed in that direction quickly.

This is a company that can't stand not to have its fingers in everyone's pie. And the lack of focus has resulted in a vast collection of mediocre to bad products.

Yep, their best days are behind them.

I wouldn't say that. Office 2007 was definitely a winner. Nobody else has managed to match it yet, and it's over 2 years old. The interface is controversial, but most people like it, although some may find it a little strange at the beginning.

XBOX 360 has sold more than Playstation 3 so far. Wii is definitely cheaper, and perhaps not a direct contender. XBOX 360 and PS3 are about graphics and processing power, for enthusiasts, and Wii is about the casual gamer. You can't call XBOX 360 a failure; it sold almost 30 million copies.

Windows Vista is not the success Microsoft says, and not the complete failure Mac enthusiasts wish it to be. It's somewhere in-between. Still, Vista is the second most popular OS in the world (XP is first) and roughly 4x more than MacOS Leopard. Could have done much better, though.

[DMann]

You can't call XBOX 360 a failure; it sold almost 30 million copies. Failure, not necessarily. Loser, Yes. MS has lost a total of $4.5 Billion in subsidies for the first generation XBox, and just recently started to turn a profit for the 360s. They were actually losing money on each sale, just to create an incentive to buy it, and to remain competitive with the rest of the game console market. It's going to take a significant amount of future sales to reconcile this deficit.

[Wikinerd]

Liberal arts aren't real majors? However incredibly ignorant. I guess CERN doesn't hire people with real majors.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=&cd=7&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhomepage.mac.com%2Feric.c%2Fhpc%2Fcontents%2Fpapers%2Flcg-macos-paper-v1.0.pdf&ei=u5_fSbDEE6DpnQf1h-m2CQ&usg=AFQjCNFhm4iW5g52kRShztI5EoUCPz4N0Q&sig2=hGUFnfLUjqjUJ1D4DEzJ2Q

http://www.apple.com/science/profiles/briancox/

Oh, that reminds me, that the first web server, WorldWideWeb, ran on NeXTStep, which became the basis for Mac OS X. (Apple bought NeXT... )

I guess the most famed computer scientists doesn't have real majors either...

[polaris20]

Oh, that reminds me, that the first web server, WorldWideWeb, ran on NeXTStep, which became the basis for Mac OS X. (Apple bought NeXT... )

I guess the most famed computer scientists doesn't have real majors either...

Nope. That guy is still at CERN as far as I know. But he's just some dumb liberal arts major, I guess. :D

[Wikinerd]

-hh already shot you down on this silly question, but what I find amazing is that so many people (including me) are still running XP (an 8 year old OS) because Microsoft has failed to deliver anything better since.

This is when they say "your best days are behind you." And what, exactly, has Microsoft succeeded with since XP?

Live Search: destroyed by Google.
Plays For Sure: destroyed by Microsoft itself.
MSN Music: destroyed by anyone else who had an online music store.
Zune: destroyed by iPod and Microsoft (well they made that PoS, after all).
Xbox 360: destroyed by the lowly Wii (and its own horrific failure rate).
Vista: destroyed by users who recognize it for the crap that it is.
Office 2007: a big seller I'm sure (due to long-term IT agreements with MS), with an interface that is more loathed than loved.
Windows Mobile: destroyed by iPhone, and soon by Pre as well. The sales numbers don't yet reflect it, but they're headed in that direction quickly.

This is a company that can't stand not to have its fingers in everyone's pie. And the lack of focus has resulted in a vast collection of mediocre to bad products.

Yep, their best days are behind them.

I like how you used the word "it"... which is correct, because although Microsoft is a corporation and legally we should refer to it as "it", I'd say we refer to that company as "it" because of the abomination it is and have since become.

[KnightWRX]

Oh, that reminds me, that the first web server, WorldWideWeb, ran on NeXTStep, which became the basis for Mac OS X. (Apple bought NeXT... )

I guess the most famed computer scientists doesn't have real majors either...

Ah, OS X looked so pretty back in those days (Yes, that's WorldWideWeb, the first browser) :

[Wikinerd]

Nope. That guy is still at CERN as far as I know. But he's just some dumb liberal arts major, I guess. :D

... Tim Berners-Lee? No... He's currently employed at the W3C and University of Southampton...

The other CERN guy? dunno. dun care.

[pr5owner]

This part here is the troll logic. For normal people, it reads :

Fact : Apple leads Dell by 10%

Conclusion : Apple beats Dell in customer satisfaction.

on consumer garbage or corporate level stuff?

[KnightWRX]

on consumer garbage or corporate level stuff?

Customer satisfaction, if you were even following that few pages old conversation, not market share.

[Wikinerd]

Please, say it isn't so...

http://blip.tv/file/340692/

OMG. Priceless.

[Wikinerd]

Of course. Anyone who doesn't wear a jeweled vial of Ballmer sweat around his neck is an Apple "fanboi," right? (Which you're probably clutching desperately right now)



The only liar I see here is you. Tell me where the ads lie. UAC is intrusive: TRUE. Consumer PCs come loaded with crapware: TRUE. Consumer PCs needed hardware upgrades to run Vista sufficiently: TRUE. Macs come with better digital media software out of the box: TRUE. Apple Stores have a Genius Bar to help you out: TRUE. Vista comes in a baffling number of versions: TRUE. College students prefer Apple notebooks: TRUE. I could go on. And on. And on.

Just because you wish them to be untrue doesn't make it so. No matter how many tears you shed on your Ballmer pillow at night.

Begone, ignorant Winbot. You're the most brainless of the bunch on this thread so far. At least the other guys were actually trying...

Troll Different.

You, sir, are one h*ll of a hero. (Not sarc/)

[NoSmokingBandit]

OMG. Priceless.

Priceless as in "someone spends way too much time spreading hate" or priceless as in "omg ms is teh suxxorz!"?

[KnightWRX]

Priceless as in "someone spends way too much time spreading hate" or priceless as in "omg ms is teh suxxorz!"?

Priceless as in it was a funny joke. Like that Fishsticks joke. Do you like Fishsticks ?

[Wikinerd]

Priceless as in it was a funny joke. Like that Fishsticks joke. Do you like Fishsticks ?

My point exactly.

Priceless: adj invaluable: having incalculable monetary, intellectual, or spiritual worth.


@NoSmokingBandit : Like LagunaSol said,

Troll Different.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Priceless as in it was a funny joke.

It might have been funny if i wasnt already numb to the mindless Vista bashing. We all get it now, Vista sucks, lets move on and stop harping on the same facts over and over and over again.
its like people picking on George Bush. It got to the point where people werent even making jokes, they would just say "bush is dumb" and everyone would laugh like it was the funniest thing.

[Wikinerd]

It might have been funny if i wasnt already numb to the mindless Vista bashing. We all get it now, Vista sucks, lets move on and stop harping on the same facts over and over and over again.
its like people picking on George Bush. It got to the point where people werent even making jokes, they would just say "bush is dumb" and everyone would laugh like it was the funniest thing.

But they deserve all the negative attention they get. I've lost countless hours thanks to Vista and it's incompatibilities. (Mainly due to driver problems. And when I want to downgrade to XP, guess what? HP doesn't provide the drivers for XP!)

[KnightWRX]

its like people picking on George Bush. It got to the point where people werent even making jokes, they would just say "bush is dumb" and everyone would laugh like it was the funniest thing.

That's because sometimes, you just have to laugh it off. Bush drove one of the world's supernation almost to economic and diplomatic disaster. You can either cry about it for the rest of time, or laugh about it and rebuild.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Thats what i mean. People want to stand around bashing him for everything instead of moving on. Bush screwed up alot, everyone knows it by now, so if a comedian cant come up with an original joke they should just quit. I cant tell you how many times i was watching a comedian on tv and out of nowhere they throw a 'bush is retarded' joke in and the audience laughed their collective ass off. After the billionth 'bush is dumb' joke they start to lose their flair, much like bashing vista over and over and over again gets more boring than funny.

[Wikinerd]

Thats what i mean. People want to stand around bashing him for everything instead of moving on. Bush screwed up alot, everyone knows it by now, so if a comedian cant come up with an original joke they should just quit. I cant tell you how many times i was watching a comedian on tv and out of nowhere they throw a 'bush is retarded' joke in and the audience laughed their collective ass off. After the billionth 'bush is dumb' joke they start to lose their flair, much like bashing vista over and over and over again gets more boring than funny.

But then Obama isn't as dumb as Bush, is he?

That's why they're still teasing Bush. Anyhow he deserves it.

Sorry, but I guess I'll never get tired of the "Vista bashing", maybe because of the firsthand horrors I've seen. (My mother bought one computer with Vista on it, you see.. and you know the rest.)

[skaertus]

Failure, not necessarily. Loser, Yes. MS has lost a total of $4.5 Billion in subsidies for the first generation XBox, and just recently started to turn a profit for the 360s. They were actually losing money on each sale, just to create an incentive to buy it, and to remain competitive with the rest of the game console market. It's going to take a significant amount of future sales to reconcile this deficit.

Yes, but that was the strategy from the beginning, wasn't it? Microsoft knew it was going to burn a lot of money in order to take on Sony... the videogame market is very competitive these days and both Microsoft and Sony are willing to lose money in the beginning just to make their consoles more popular in the end.

[Trajectory]

Thats what i mean. People want to stand around bashing him for everything instead of moving on. Bush screwed up alot, everyone knows it by now, so if a comedian cant come up with an original joke they should just quit. I cant tell you how many times i was watching a comedian on tv and out of nowhere they throw a 'bush is retarded' joke in and the audience laughed their collective ass off. After the billionth 'bush is dumb' joke they start to lose their flair, much like bashing vista over and over and over again gets more boring than funny.

You mean the way they made fun of Clinton (and still do) for many years after he was no longer President? No one will forget Bush and his stupidity for a very, very long time. Get used to it.

Besides, what does this have to do with Microsoft? I highly doubt Bill Gates voted for Bush anyway, he's actually a pretty decent guy compared to most other billionaires.

[NoSmokingBandit]

You mean the way they made fun of Clinton (and still do) for many years after he was no longer President?

Yes.
The vista bashing gets old, just like the Bush bashing (which is how this came about). Vista sucks, get over it and make an original joke. Then i might find it amusing. Perhaps i just like originality when someone is entertaining me. You guys can laugh at the same stale joke over and over again, but i'll wait for something to do something that actually requires talent.

[dwl017]

But then Obama isn't as dumb as Bush, is he?

That's why they're still teasing Bush. Anyhow he deserves it.

Sorry, but I guess I'll never get tired of the "Vista bashing", maybe because of the firsthand horrors I've seen. (My mother bought one computer with Vista on it, you see.. and you know the rest.)

What first hand horrors? I have been running Vista for over two years now without a single problem. Yes I use OS X also and I enjoy using both no I am not trolling just getting tried of all the BS and lies.

[LagunaSol]

You can't call XBOX 360 a failure; it sold almost 30 million copies.

Most of them at a loss.

And I'll bet 10 million of those died and had to be replaced. My brother is on his 3rd. I've heard of people who have gone through 5 or 6.

If I sold 30 million of *anything*, had to repair/replace a third of them, and lost money on almost every one I sold, would you call me a success?

No.

Xbox is a money pit for MS. But they'll pay anything to be "cool."

[BMWFan]

Most of them at a loss.

And I'll bet 10 million of those died and had to be replaced. My brother is on his 3rd. I've heard of people who have gone through 5 or 6.

If I sold 30 million of *anything*, had to repair/replace a third of them, and lost money on almost every one I sold, would you call me a success?

No.

Xbox is a money pit for MS. But they'll pay anything to be "cool."

So why is your brother still on the Xbox when he could have sold the console and all the games with it and just bought a PS3?

Maybe, he just realises that the Xbox is a good platform?

[LagunaSol]

So why is your brother still on the Xbox when he could have sold the console and all the games with it and just bought a PS3.

Some people just aren't very bright. I.e. Microsoft's customer base. :p

P.S. and it's hard to sell a console that doesn't work.

[BMWFan]

Some people just aren't very bright. I.e. Microsoft's customer base. :p

P.S. and it's hard to sell a console that doesn't work.

You said he was on his 3rd one and you knew others that were on their 5th or 6th.

Surely he could have sold his console after he got it repaired or replaced from Microsoft. If he couldn't get it repaired or replaced.

[KnightWRX]

I highly doubt Bill Gates voted for Bush anyway, he's actually a pretty decent guy compared to most other billionaires.

You'd be surprised. At the time, the democrat's DOJ was all over him like toilet paper on your behind after all-you-can at the refriend beans place.

[applecultvictim]

You'd be surprised. At the time, the democrat's DOJ was all over him like toilet paper on your behind after all-you-can at the refriend beans place.

elaborate please

[KnightWRX]

elaborate please

Wikipedia has a good summary :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft

[Sehnsucht]

Some people just aren't very bright. I.e. Microsoft's customer base. :p

I wouldn't say that. I've met all kinds of users while proselytizing for Apple (:D) and I've met many people who have never heard of Macs, people who used the old Macintoshes back in the late '80s and forgot about them, and people who have heard of Macs but know nothing about them whatsoever. I'd say a large majority of people use Windows PCs because they're simply unaware that there's lots of other stuff out there. The conversations usually go something like this:

Them: I need a new computer...what kind should I get?
Me: (grinning) Get a Mac!
Them: A Mac? What's Mac?
Me: You know...Macintoshes...Apple computers.
Them: Oh...Macintosh...I used one at work back in the '80s. I didn't like it because it didn't work with any of the software for our other computers.
Me: The Macs have changed a lot since then. There's Mac versions of a lot of software nowadays, and if there isn't a Mac version for a particular program you need, you can install Windows on the Mac and use it that way.
Them: Really? Well then if you have Windows on it, what's the point of getting a Mac? Why not a new Dell?
Me: Because the Mac operating system is more stable and is less prone to viruses and malware. Plus it's easier to use.
(later.....)
Them: My daughter said Macs don't have floppy drives. I have about 2 milk crates full of floppies in my office that have lots of important crap saved on them.
Me: That's true, they don't, but you can buy a 16-gigabyte flash drive and transfer everything from the floppies and still have space left over.
Them: Really? All that stuff on that tiny little thing? Well, how much is a Mac?
Me: It depends on which one you get. (huge grin) The most expensive one is the Mac Pro. If you configure it with the most expensive components from Apple, it goes up to about $20,000. You do want that one, right? :D
Them: NO THANKS!!! :eek: What's the cheapest one?
Me: The Mac mini...see this is it...you can attach your monitor, mouse, keyboard, speakers to it without having to get new ones. It starts at $599 but since you use all that media software, you should probably get the 2.26GHz processor upgrade and 4 GB of RAM. Now it comes to a little over $1,000.
Them: Well, that's about what I paid for my Gateway awhile back. Awww, is that the mini? That's cute, it's so small!!!

You get the idea. :D (Apple should be paying me for all the free advertising I do.) It's just a shame that the Redmond monopoly has reduced many people's idea of a computer to a "Windell" box at Walmart.

:cool:

[Wikinerd]

What first hand horrors? I have been running Vista for over two years now without a single problem. Yes I use OS X also and I enjoy using both no I am not trolling just getting tried of all the BS and lies.

Driver problems. (New computer in '06, somewhat decent power, ~2.0GHz core 2 duo 4GB RAM, *forgot about graphics card but I do remember it's mid-high end*) Bad user interface; couldn't get something done in an hour that can be done on Ubuntu, XP, or OS X for 5 minutes. Tried to downgrade. Nope, HP won't provide drivers for XP, even though Vista's drivers suck. So I'm stuck with Vista; oh, and I was h*ll annoyed by the sheer amount of stuff compatible (i.e. none? this was '06). Ended up selling it.

...Then my mother bought another one. She was always like "the printer is not working", "the computer is asking me whether or not to do ___" or things like that.. or at least she did until I gave up and Hackint0sh'd her computer; from that moment on she didn't bother me like she did before.


When a hackint0sh runs better than the original, you know you've got a problem.


And yeah. Everything I say is "BS and lies". You won't know until you've seen it for yourself (just that your computer ran flawlessly doesn't mean everyone else's did.).

[bruinsrme]

Pretty poor idea on the whole.

"Microsoft, because you can't afford anything better"

Is that really the consensus?

I wanted a MBP but the hardware didn't match my desires. Should I have purchased a MBP at an extra $800 for something that didn't fit my needs/wants?

Apple can make a beautiful machine with what some think as the best and only OS but if it isn't a fit for me it's because I can't afford it?
I don't get it.

[usclaneyj]

BTW why don't you ask Giampaolo if he had to follow a script.

I'm sure a lot of us would like to know! ;)

It's been a while, but I thought I would report back on this:

Nope, no script. He thought he had signed up to be part of a focus group about computers. He didn't even know he was in a commercial until after he left the store and there were 40 crew members outside. The only people inside with him were a camera guy, a sound guy, and the guy running the "focus group".

[k2spitfire88]

It's been a while, but I thought I would report back on this:

Nope, no script. He thought he had signed up to be part of a focus group about computers. He didn't even know he was in a commercial until after he left the store and there were 40 crew members outside. The only people inside with him were a camera guy, a sound guy, and the guy running the "focus group".

This was found where? Just curious to know your source

[usclaneyj]

This was found where? Just curious to know your source

I know the guy personally. Have for about 7 years. He went to school with an ex of mine. He moved to LA a few years back and we lost touch. Then he popped up on my tv screen. Naturally, I facebooked him to see how he was doing. In the process, we discussed how he ended up in the commercial.

[k2spitfire88]

I know the guy personally. Have for about 7 years. He went to school with an ex of mine. He moved to LA a few years back and we lost touch. Then he popped up on my tv screen. Naturally, I facebooked him to see how he was doing. In the process, we discussed how he ended up in the commercial.

Ok. Not saying that I don't believe you, but, this is the internet, and anyone can say anything. You may be telling the truth, however, there is no way for the rest of us to verify that unfortunately.

[usclaneyj]

Ok. Not saying that I don't believe you, but, this is the internet, and anyone can say anything. You may be telling the truth, however, there is no way for the rest of us to verify that unfortunately.

You're right, there's not. :) Someone pointed out that the previous girl was a SAG member and implicated Giampaolo to be one too. He's not, and I said as much.

I'm not going to go out of my way to prove myself, so it's up to y'all to trust my comments or not. haha

[LagunaSol]

Who cares who this guy is? He got a crappy laptop with a crappy OS for a reasonable price - just like millions of other unfortunate souls. :D

He's just one of the faceless masses taking it in the shorts by Microsoft every single day. But hey, at least he got a good deal!

The beauty of it is he's not allowed to talk about his HP laptop with Windows experience. :rolleyes:

The funny thing about this ad campaign is it doesn't tell anyone anything they don't already know: that Windows junk is cheaper. Well, duh. People aren't switching to Macs to save money, you idiots at Microsoft, they're switching to get away from your craptastic software.

[djellison]

But hey, at least he got a good deal!

He did. Every day computer works just fine under Windows. I'm not sure quite you expect to happen when someone switches on a PC. It boots up, they load outlook and IE and Word, do the things they need to do, then turn it off. To quote an IT firm.. it just works. Seriously - the way people write in this place, it's as if they honestly think a PC when turned on will delete your work, explode your printer, format the internet, corrupt your digital camera, and run off with your wife.

They work fine, thanks. I wouldn't change my XP64 desktop machine for a Mac Pro running OSX.

Your Mac-evangelism is admirable, but when you write posts like that, you eliminate any hint of credibility.

[LagunaSol]

Your Mac-evangelism is admirable, but when you write posts like that, you eliminate any hint of credibility.

Sorry to burst your bubble, amigo, but I've been using Windows 40+ hours a week since 1992. I've built my own PCs. I'm the "go to" person at work when people have problems in Windows. When it comes to comparing Mac to Windows, I have all the credibility I need, thank you very much. And Windows does not "just work," no matter how many Microsoft MVP newsletters you read.

Just last week I was using PowerPoint 2007 and clip art thumbnails would not display. I got the message "Clip Organizer cannot complete the operation. Interface not registered. Error Code 0x80040155."

Helpful! Thanks Microsoft! Fortunately I had Google, who told me I had to register my Ole32.dll file. WTF???

In all my years of using the Mac, I have never seen an error message in any way similar to that. But with Windows it's a way of life.

Microsoft = bad software built for people who just don't know any better.

Enjoy your Windows crapbox. Me, I continue use Windows only when I have to. Which sadly, is much of the time. And I'll protest it every step of the way.

OS X > any version of Windows you want to throw at it. Period.

Keep drinking the Redmond kool-aid...

[djellison]

Enjoy your Windows crapbox.

Sorry to burst YOUR bubble - but I use both Windows AND OSX.

Neither is leaps and bounds ahead of the other

They're both different ways of doing the same stuff. They both get it done. Some pay a premium because they prefer one. Some use the other because they're happy with what they got for the money.

We can only speak from our respective experience. Mine, however, is such that I would be neither over joyed nor heart broken if I was told I had to use just one OS or the other from now on. They both have issues.

Now hopefully I can post this before Safari crashes again. That'll be the fourth time today.

[Shivetya]

^^^1366 x 768 resolution on a 16". That's really pathetic.

Aimed clearly at showing movies.

Plus many will probably hook it to a display, I think my MBP's native 1440x900 or whatever is pathetic considering I had Dells many many years ago with far better displays and resolutions

[Shivetya]

Customer satisfaction, if you were even following that few pages old conversation, not market share.

I think I would take Dell's trade, 10% less consumer satisfaction for many more sales.

[LagunaSol]

Neither is leaps and bounds ahead of the other

If so, Microsoft has nothing to worry about. No one will buy Macs, as anyone can get an equivalent software and hardware experience at a much cheaper price with a Windows/PC combo. And Microsoft won't have to run television ads trying to convince people that sticking with Windows really is their best choice (since, you know, it's cheaper, and just as good).

Oh, wait...

[LagunaSol]

I think I would take Dell's trade, 10% less consumer satisfaction for many more sales.

Comparing Apple's profits to Dell's, I think I'd take Apple's position.

Selling fewer things yet making more money doing it seems to be the better business position, IMO. :D

[djellison]

If so, Microsoft has nothing to worry about. No one will buy Macs, as anyone can get an equivalent software and hardware experience at a much cheaper price with a Windows/PC combo. And Microsoft won't have to run television ads trying to convince people that sticking with Windows really is their best choice (since, you know, it's cheaper, and just as good).

Oh, wait...

No need for the 'oh, wait'. Look at Market share. People are happy with what they've got for the money they pay.