Windows Team Blog: 'Avoid the Apple Tax – Cash in on the value of Windows' [Archive]

fpbecker

Apr 9, 2009, 04:09 PM

With the ailing global economy, I am looking at ways I get better value for my money. One way I can do this if I need to replace a computer is by avoiding the “Apple Tax.”

Microsoft sponsored a new whitepaper (PDF) from Roger Kay of Endpoint Technologies Associates which takes a look at the tax from a tech analyst’s viewpoint. His paper shows the “Apple Tax” is the combination of what people pay up front when purchasing a Mac and what people pay over the life of their computer – the hidden tax.

Roger looked into both aspects in his whitepaper, and has discovered some interesting findings around the “hidden tax” of owning a Mac – using the scenario of a hypothetical family of 4 and their costs over a five year period. Knowing that Tax Day is just around the corner here in the US (April 15), I decided to have a little fun with his findings by building a mock up tax form using Roger’s numbers that show the whopping difference this family would get purchasing Windows PCs over Macs: $3,367.

Read the rest of the article on the Windows Experience Blog. (http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/windowsexperience/archive/2009/04/09/avoid-the-apple-tax-cash-in-on-the-value-of-windows.aspx)

Whoa. What's with Microsoft being this aggressive towards Apple and the 'Apple Tax' lately? And: When and how will Apple respond?

NT1440

Apr 9, 2009, 04:13 PM

Why does it factor in the cost of software to put on a mac (office amongst others) but doesn't say a damn thing on the cost of software to put on a pc?:confused:

r.j.s

Apr 9, 2009, 04:15 PM

Why does it factor in the cost of software to put on a mac (office amongst others) but doesn't say a damn thing on the cost of software to put on a pc?:confused:

Because the paper was sponsored by MS.

I love how you MUST get One to One and 5 years of MobileMe.

Why is an iLife upgrade on there?

NT1440

Apr 9, 2009, 04:17 PM

Because the paper was sponsored by MS.

Ah of course! Because MS knows that Windows ships with all the software you need ;)

Raid

Apr 9, 2009, 04:17 PM

^^ I noticed that, and that the option for sony blu-ray drive is more expensive for the Mac. ... and what about equivalent options for Mobileme for the PC

:rolleyes:

Sigh, I for one wouldn't mind a non-biased evaluation, but I'm not going to hold my breath for it.

r.j.s

Apr 9, 2009, 04:20 PM

And why is the same GPU different prices?

WTF is Other Software for $70?

dvdhsu

Apr 9, 2009, 04:31 PM

I've decided.
Is there anybody who can get me a text version of this?
I'm going to go through it, and then write a paper arguing against it.
A five page report!

dvdhsu

Apr 9, 2009, 04:32 PM

I just discovered that I can copy and paste. Expect a report/essay soon.

dvdhsu

Apr 9, 2009, 04:43 PM

What Price Mainstream?
Users may know they pay less for PC hardware, but much of the “Microsoft Tax” is hidden.

By David Hsu

Sponsor: None

Introduction: I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference
Two major competitors have emerged from the pack: Mac and PC. They are radically different, and diverge in profound and philosophical ways.
With respect to operating systems, the question of price has to be looked at. Microsoft and Apple have taken significantly different approaches to building a Platform. Microsoft worked with partners to provide a greater range of choice, while Apple took care of the whole Platform, providing a significantly more integrated, albeit less flexible Platform.
An outgrowth of Apple’s strategy is Apple’s pricing, and luxurious Platform experiences. For Microsoft, it is flexibility, at the cost of malicious software.

*LTD*

Apr 9, 2009, 04:43 PM

The value of Windows? What value??

Is it the value of:

Running antivirus software
Slowdowns over time
Regular maintenance
A slipshod UI
Poorly integrated software
Messy interface
Badly designed software
A massive target for virus writers
Conficker (which is now awake, have fun Winblows zombies! (Again))
Hardware/software compatibility issues
The worst browser in history, fully integrated into the OS (Bonus!)
HIG guidelines that are hardly ever followed
An OS that so obviously tries to be an ass-backwards, upside down clone of OS X
Running Crysis faster than the other basement shut-in living next door
And . . .

The happy knowledge that you come off looking cheap, and worse, a loser that secretly lusts after OS X . . . mostly because MS said so in their ads.

Lots of value there. I'd pay extra (a lot extra) just to avoid all of that.

Fontaine

Apr 9, 2009, 04:57 PM

And people seriously wonder why you where banned from Neowin posting rubbish like that. Apart from having to install A/V software I have never ran into any of those other problems, and I have been using Windows for years. Is my PC magic or something?

The happy knowledge that you come off looking cheap, and worse, a loser that secretly lusts after OS X . . . mostly because MS said so in their ads

You assume every user wants to use OSX? Funny, looking at OSX personally makes me feel like vomiting.

Pandya

Apr 9, 2009, 04:59 PM

And why is the same GPU different prices?

WTF is Other Software for $70?

That's actually a very good question.

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB999ZM/A

http://www.amazon.com/Sapphire-Radeon-HD4870-PCI-Express-Graphics/dp/B001J6FS3I/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1239310578&sr=8-1

...why IS the same GPU different prices. Guess you'll have to ask Apple.

IJ Reilly

Apr 9, 2009, 05:00 PM

In recessions, people eat out just about as often as during better times, but they tend to eat fast food instead of going to good restaurants -- not necessarily because they can't afford the better restaurant, but because they're afraid for their own futures and at least pretend to spend a little less. So here is Microsoft trying desperately to capitalize on the fear consumers typically experience in recessions. It's a completely negative strategy, which even if it succeeds marginally, will look ridiculous when the economy improves.

This is a classic Microsoft tactic. They've always been better at motivating people through fear than desire. Old habits are hard to break.

barkmonster

Apr 9, 2009, 05:01 PM

Consultant

Apr 9, 2009, 05:10 PM

Actually this is more like it:

MS tax
http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=442

Pandya

Apr 9, 2009, 05:29 PM

Actually this is more like it:

MS tax
http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=442

You'd think that given how easy it is to discredit the MS-sponsored white paper, it won't take long to do the same to ZDNet. After all, fair is fair.

First of all, it should be pointed out that while Microsoft are making a higher margin, it isn't respective of a higher per unit cost - as the article states, profit margins are simply revenue less costs...Microsoft's vastly higher gross margins is respective of lower costs and higher revenue (volume as much as per-unit price). It doesn't mean these costs are at all passed on to consumers as 'tax' -besides reduced costs and increase volume, Microsoft make some dizzyingly expensive enterprise software.

The ZDNet article also makes an interesting notion that the Zune is crushed by Apple...it wouldn't be fair to say Apple is crushed by Microsoft (just outperformed in sales)...it occupies a smaller, but steady volume of sales. Again, the Xbox 360 isn't crushed by the Wii, and similarly, Vista isn't crushed by XP (and even if it did, the money ends up in the same pocket, so it isn't really a major concern for Microsoft's financial health).

Equally, the resale numbers are mis-represented - Apple products cost more in the first place, and have a smaller volume, so when it comes to resale, their resale is in line with their original retail price. Whilst the percentages may favour Apple for retaining value, in the example given, a $1200 Macbook losing 50% value is then worth $600...the $600 Dell losing 80% value is then worth $120...losing $480 in value. The loss is higher with the Apple product, and the lower cost of the Dell makes it more easily replaced.

The finishing comment is flawed...it makes the assumption that Ballmer is suggesting consumers settle for an inferior product due to cost...cost does not represent value.

ravenvii

Apr 9, 2009, 05:34 PM

You assume every user wants to use OSX? Funny, looking at OSX personally makes me feel like vomiting.

Really? Then your keyboard and desk (and perhaps your screen) must be just utterly disgusting, since you bothered to come here, register, and post. OS X is all over the place here - it's a Mac site after all.

Hope you have a coherent explanation to your mommy and daddy for why you became anorexic.

clevin

Apr 9, 2009, 06:41 PM

Why does it factor in the cost of software to put on a mac (office amongst others) but doesn't say a damn thing on the cost of software to put on a pc?:confused:
good point, maybe everybody is pirating on windows......

Eidorian

Apr 9, 2009, 06:42 PM

I have to say that the value of Windows is the choice of your hardware. It lacks polish in the UI and layout environment otherwise.

clevin

Apr 9, 2009, 06:48 PM

I have to say that the value of Windows is the choice of your hardware. It lacks polish in the UI and layout environment otherwise.
I think Vista and windows 7 is polished enough, as far as UI is concerned. "Polish" in this regard is such a subjective "feelings", which has no standard to measure comprehensively.

surferfromuk

Apr 11, 2009, 06:51 PM

What about the Microsoft Tax? - a clear 50% wastage of ALL YOUR FREE TIME trying to get stuff done with their products.

chaos86

Apr 11, 2009, 08:24 PM

The only apple tax is on the hardware. Apple's update cycle is much slower, so right after each update the hardware costs roughly the same as a dell, but months later it's the same cost after the dell's price has fallen or it's been updated.

The rest is just MS BS. iLife upgrade? .Mac for 5 years? One-on-One care? Why does a mac user need quicken and office, but a PC user doesn't need anything? No video software, no AV software, nothing?

This "whitepaper" is called a white paper because it's printed on white paper. That's it's most credible feature.

synth3tik

Apr 11, 2009, 08:32 PM

You'll spend the money either way you go. Chances are with Apple you'll be giving them the money instead of a third party, but having experience with both over long periods of time, and you are spending pretty much the same.

Apple has a good business model that GETS us to continue spending with Apple. For instance the iTMS. Using Apples applications to purchase stuff from Apple, that is genius. MS has somewhat tried with that, but the store is just the face of what Apple has down, and all of what MS has done.

Melrose

Apr 12, 2009, 01:44 PM

I can't believe he even registered just to post something like this...

The term whitepaper is very subjective. It's supposed to mean a fact-based document that proves a point or otherwise makes a logical statement based on points of reasoning or comparisons.

That said, I don't understand how a company expects to pass off something like this as factual, when they are one of the parties involved - talk about bias.

What's even more amazing is that there are shallow-minded people who read that and then believe it. Microsoft fills their customers' minds with garbage like this, it's no wonder the PC users I've personally discussed things like this with are clueless and uninformed.

Eidorian

Apr 12, 2009, 09:51 PM

I think Vista and windows 7 is polished enough, as far as UI is concerned. "Polish" in this regard is such a subjective "feelings", which has no standard to measure comprehensively.My big problem is that within Vista itself you'll have applications with wildly differing layouts and button schemes. I had a picture at one point that pointed out all the different schemes with the bundled applications alone. It seemed like they didn't even try to stick with one predefined usability outline.

Menus or nonexistent menus. Help buttons or accessing help from the menu.

clevin

Apr 12, 2009, 10:01 PM

My big problem is that within Vista itself you'll have applications with wildly differing layouts and button schemes. I had a picture at one point that pointed out all the different schemes with the bundled applications alone. It seemed like they didn't even try to stick with one predefined usability outline.

Menus or nonexistent menus. Help buttons or accessing help from the menu.
aha, i recall such a thread when vista was out, a bunch of screenshots made by somebody, posted here at MR.

To be honest, I dont believe that was fair nor was that a big deal, I used many vista machines, so do the friends around me, nobody complain that much about those.

The fundamental question is if that really slow down and/or causes problems for end users, I dont think I saw any such report saying users are unhappy with it. Microsoft conducts user experience research, not like they do things for no reasons.

Eidorian

Apr 12, 2009, 10:04 PM

aha, i recall such a thread when vista was out, a bunch of screenshots made by somebody, posted here at MR.

To be honest, I dont believe that was fair nor was that a big deal, I used many vista machines, so do the friends around me, nobody complain that much about those.

The fundamental question is if that really slow down and/or causes problems for end users, I dont think I saw any such report saying users are unhappy with it. Microsoft conducts user experience research, not like they do things for no reasons.Quite true. Too many users believe that Vista still lacks the polish that it did in the Beta days and pre-SP1. It isn't 2006 anymore.

I need to work on improving my own workflow because I'm still stuck in the XP mindset and I'm repeating certain tasks far too often when I could streamline it.

nick9191

Apr 12, 2009, 10:13 PM

I don't think I have ever read a bigger pile of junk in my life.

BornAgainMac

Apr 12, 2009, 10:19 PM

Why does it factor in the cost of software to put on a mac (office amongst others) but doesn't say a damn thing on the cost of software to put on a pc?:confused:

PC people pirate maybe.

NT1440

Apr 12, 2009, 10:25 PM

PC people pirate maybe.

I really doubt a Windows team wants to assert that Windows users pirate more than any other people.

Jpoon

Apr 12, 2009, 10:28 PM

I really doubt a Windows team wants to assert that Windows users pirate more than any other people.

That goes without saying.

The market majority uses Windows to do everything for their personal computing needs. So naturally, Windows users would hold 1st place for any feat in the personal computing area that decides standing by sheer numbers.

NT1440

Apr 12, 2009, 10:30 PM

That goes without saying.

The market majority uses Windows to do everything for their personal computing needs. So naturally, Windows users would hold 1st place for any feat in the personal computing area that decides standing by sheer numbers.
Thats not really a fair statement to make though.

crain300

Apr 12, 2009, 10:48 PM

lets us send an email to bill
make windows 7 up yours
love all apple people

aaquib

Apr 13, 2009, 09:48 AM

PC people pirate maybe.

It was meant to show a switchers perspective, in which case, if they already had all the software on Windows, they'd have to rebuy the OS X versions.

costabunny

Apr 13, 2009, 09:59 AM

wow. I am disappointed the writer could not make a fair comparison (like for like H/W and the costs for S/W and support (I note in particular the cost of 5yrs mobile.me, but not equivalent for the PC (as there isn't one)).

such a shame. I am almost tempted to do over his findings....

same old sad, petty pokes from windows @ macs (and likewise Ive seen blogs that poke macs @ windows so we are not squeaky clean)

I think with a fair set of figures it may have made for an interesting read.

gnasher729

Apr 13, 2009, 11:22 AM

I've decided.
Is there anybody who can get me a text version of this?
I'm going to go through it, and then write a paper arguing against it.
A five page report!

It's worth a frontpage headline "Microsoft conjures imaginary Apple tax" to the Register. Here's the article:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/11/microsoft_flames_macs/

The only apple tax is on the hardware.

I hope you realize that the term "Apple Tax" is an invention and production of Microsoft. Nobody used this term until Microsoft started it. So by repeating this term, you just demonstrate that you have fallen for the Microsoft propaganda machine.

A "tax" on a product would be something that you have to pay on top of the normal price without getting anything for it. For example, if you buy a PC with Linux installed, and the manufacturer has to pay money to Microsoft for a Windows license whether a computer ships with it or not, that can be called a tax. If you buy more for a product because it is better designed, better made, or just better marketed, that is not a tax. You pay for what you get. Sure, you can call the more expensive product "more expensive", and then you can check whether it's worth paying the higher price or not, but calling it a "tax" is pure propaganda.

Now calling Microsoft a "convicted monopolist" wouldn't be propaganda, that would be just the truth. For example, Microsoft has just recently been convicted to pay 7 million Euros in Germany for price fixing on educational prices.

clevin

Apr 13, 2009, 11:26 AM

I think with a fair set of figures it may have made for an interesting read.
lol, you call that fair? Who buy those together. lol again
It was meant to show a switchers perspective, in which case, if they already had all the software on Windows, they'd have to rebuy the OS X versions.
that makes sense.

instaxgirl

Apr 13, 2009, 01:07 PM

I skimmed the "Apple Tax" paper. The software iLife/Office etc bit was just misleading but I had to roll my eyes at the Apple Airport Extreme base station costs more than this other router. No one is stopping you from buying the cheaper option . . .

NT1440

Apr 13, 2009, 01:17 PM

It was meant to show a switchers perspective, in which case, if they already had all the software on Windows, they'd have to rebuy the OS X versions.

It was my understanding that this was supposed to be an honest comparison (a complete joke) of ownership of a Mac vs PC without preconditions, I dont know where you got the idea its supposed to be from a switchers perspective?

r.j.s

Apr 13, 2009, 01:21 PM

It was my understanding that this was supposed to be an honest comparison (a complete joke) of ownership of a Mac vs PC without preconditions, I dont know where you got the idea its supposed to be from a switchers perspective?

It's in the PDF ...

One cost that people switching from Windows to Mac often forget is the tab for
reacquisition of software. Many of the programs that Windows users either already own or enjoy as
part of the Windows environment cost extra in the Apple world, on occasion a lot extra.

NT1440

Apr 13, 2009, 01:29 PM

It's in the PDF ...

Damn, I only looked at the pictures that were already there, I hate having adobe open up just to look at something :o

r.j.s

Apr 13, 2009, 01:30 PM

Damn, I only looked at the pictures that were already there, I hate having adobe open up just to look at something :o

I see. Distracted by something shiny.

NT1440

Apr 13, 2009, 01:32 PM

I see. Distracted by something shiny.

What is that supposed to even mean?

r.j.s

Apr 13, 2009, 01:33 PM

What is that supposed to even mean?

Nevermind. I was commenting about how you were distracted by the pictures.

Watabou

Apr 13, 2009, 04:46 PM

It seems as if Microsoft is becoming very interested in telling people not to buy a Mac. I wonder why.

Eraserhead

Apr 14, 2009, 06:26 PM

My big problem is that within Vista itself you'll have applications with wildly differing layouts and button schemes. I had a picture at one point that pointed out all the different schemes with the bundled applications alone. It seemed like they didn't even try to stick with one predefined usability outline.

Menus or nonexistent menus. Help buttons or accessing help from the menu.

aha, i recall such a thread when vista was out, a bunch of screenshots made by somebody, posted here at MR.

To be honest, I dont believe that was fair nor was that a big deal, I used many vista machines, so do the friends around me, nobody complain that much about those.

The fundamental question is if that really slow down and/or causes problems for end users, I dont think I saw any such report saying users are unhappy with it. Microsoft conducts user experience research, not like they do things for no reasons.

I think you're talking about: http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2008/06/microsoft-learn-from-apple-III.ars

coupdetat

Apr 17, 2009, 09:13 PM

Meh, Mac users just close their ears and whine whenever something like this comes out. As a longtime Mac user, I can definitely understand that some OSX software is much better than Windows counterparts (Adium, Grapher, Papers, OmniOutliner, and a few others come to mind). However, there are also some GREAT programs on Windows that are unavailable or noticeably inferior on Macs--for example, Office, Winamp, Foobar, and Matlab.

Switching from one OS to another takes some adjustment. There will be some programs that one would find better and some worse, regardless of the direction of the move. After 6 years on Macs, I became very acclimated to OSX. However, I came across this deal a couple months ago:

Vaio TZ
2.8lbs
8hr battery (real world! I'm using it right now)
1.33ghz ULV processor
64gb SSD
250gb HDD
Carbon fiber casing

$1000 shipped, refurbed direct from Sony. How could I justify a MacBook Air when the TZ is so much superior in terms of hardware? I wound up selling my Rev. A MBA and switching back to Windows for my main machine.

Now, moving to Windows did have some inconveniences. Navigating Vista isn't as fluid as OSX for me and the TZ's carbon fiber casing isn't as durable as the MBA's aluminum one, but I have made huge productivity gains because of being untethered to outlets (since I'm a college student) and especially because Office 2003 is just so much better than anything offered on OSX.

Basically what I'm saying is, there are benefits and pitfalls to both operating systems. I think most would agree that OSX is the better OS--even Michael Dell. But sometimes, the Apple Tax is just so steep that people might be willing to endure some quirks and imperfections in order to save tons of money. Not every computer user is a "Graphic Designer".