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kaisera
Dec 2, 2001, 06:51 PM
Hi,

This is my first post here so bear with me if I break with any conventions.

I have been an avid PC user for my entire computing life. I am 21 years old. I did use Apple II and IIes in elementary school and loved playing Oregon Trail (great game!).

I have since become a film student (in my 3rd year) and my exposure to Macs expanded. I had since Avid systems, but never thought much of them because they were so expensive and what the pros used. I began to fiddle with Final Cut at school and really liked it. I wanted to buy a G4 desktop, but simply could not afford it. At the time the 733mhz was the highest spec at $3499 i think. I had purchased an Addon firewire card for my Windows pc several years back and used that. So this summer I wound up building a new PC and it only cost $1000. This fall I went to purchase a laptop. I bought a Sony Vaio all in one. IT has everything all built in, etc. IT was heavy and the battery SUCKED. So i wound up returning it, the very same week the 600mhz ibook was announced. I got one of those, FELL IN LOVE WITH IT.

My issue is that now with G5s coming soon, I will want such an animal for editing, etc. But it will be hugely expensive.

I think in order for Apple to increase its Market share significantly, they will need to address 2 issues:

1. Price - Yes their margins are high, but they need to make some solid decisions. If you lower your margins, hence your price, you get more users and then more people buying other products and upgrades down the line.

2. The Stigma - Mac's have always had a stigma for being somewhat of a boutique system. They need to center their marketing more around its everyday use and usability. Their digital hub campaign is a great thing, but needs to be explored me. If you look at Microsoft, they market things like wireless, etc. A good commercial would be someone with a laptop trying to install drivers for a wireless card, configuring a hub, etc. Instead his friend comes over with a ibook, and airport. PLugs in the card and the base station, BOOM. It works.

It's about Price more than anything. Consumers and Prosumers (which I consider myself to be) simply can't afford it. People unaware of its intuitiveness just blow it off and buy a piece of crap e-Machines system for $500.

So Apple, be more aggressive in your marketing. Compete in the pricing. This two things could really make a difference in my opinion.

Just a few words :)

AmbitiousLemon
Dec 2, 2001, 08:06 PM
I completely agree. i love my macintosh, and would never even consider buying a wintel machine. But lets face it macs and mac users are a joke to the pc community.

we mac users like having our exclusive little mac community, but if there were more mac users it would equal more money for r&d and more software.

intel and ms pour so much money into marketing and for the most part apple remains silient. occasionally we get a commercial showing off apple's sleek angles and some giddy apple user but these just reinforce the stigma.

apple users have long known that macos is the operating system that allows its users to do more with less work, but wintel users only see the bubbly imac shells and high prices and see macs as an expensive toy for a bunch of eccentrics.

address the price by either lowering prices or showing that a comparable pc system would cost much much more. ive seen these comparisons all over the web on various mac enthusiasts sites.

im still embarassed to whip out my laptop on plane flights because of all the strange looks i get (and lets not even discuss the fact the fact that the first thing any pc user notices today is an incredably slow and unusable macosx).

apple needs to get into computing stores and offer to train employees about macs. I see so many people walk into a computer store walk straight to the macs with smiles and then get led away from the macs by some employees who doesnt want to sell a mac since they dont know anything about them.

lets face it apple makes great computers, but apple is a terrible company. and id otn care if apple comes out with g5s at 3ghz in january it wont matter to non-mac users because macs are a joke and speed and pacakging cant bring respect in a market dominated by ignorant consumers.

Mike Gagne
Dec 2, 2001, 08:57 PM
But lets face it macs and mac users are a joke to the pc community.

Higher intelligence is always laughed at by those without it.

As a new user you will find even more things to feel good about concerning your Mac and its interface with your need to express yourself. Take heart, life is grand and more beautiful on a MacOS..... Aloha

Xapplimatic
Dec 2, 2001, 10:00 PM
I think Macs sell themselves to people when they get tired of Windows shenanigans. In the last year alone, I converted three friends and my mothers off of their PCs over to Macs. They wanted refuge from "illegal operation" errors, corruption issues (like having to reinstall Windows on a regular monthly basis), and general disintegration of hardware issues. They found refuge in the Mac and are all very happy new Mac owners on OS X. Many of them have told me, switching was much easier than they thought it would be and that they are glad that they did. They also frequently mention that they have no desire to go back.

AmbitiousLemon
Dec 3, 2001, 12:02 AM
id have to disagree with the macs sell themselves thing. to me when you tell your story of your friends and mother switching it is a testament to the need for an experienced mac user to step in and let these dissatisfied wintel users know that there is a better way.

i think most of us experienced mac users take it on ourselves to "sell" macs to the people we know. but a product in a modern economy should not rely on word of mouth to spread. the company needs to take up this role.

ive got a friend right now we who is considering buying an ibook. three years ago when this friend walked into my dorm room he considered macs the foulest computers around. it took a lot of time to break through that stigma.

apple encourages people to think different but people dont want to think. they woud rather bend over and let microsoft think for them while bill takes them for the a ride. apple needs to get through to these people and open their eyes to what computing should be.

Falleron
Dec 3, 2001, 08:24 AM
I think that you are completly wrong!!! Apple is a great company! Just look at recent evidence, Apple make a good profit where at the moment many pc companies are loosing a lot of money!! Plus, as you said they look so much better + they are more expensive because they use the best components, therefore, they dont go wrong as often!

As for OS X, I have found it to be perfectly responsive (on an ibook)!

mymemory
Dec 3, 2001, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Falleron
they are more expensive because they use the best components...

Hey, hey!!! the audio i/o is not the best. It is hardly ok.

Mac are about 10% too expensive. It is really an investment rather than an apliance.

If people doesn't have money to buy it Apple may say "If they really want our product they are gonna buy it, use credit then". All thouse cheap suckers thinks like that, that is why they have money.

Falleron
Dec 3, 2001, 12:20 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion I suppose!

jefhatfield
Dec 3, 2001, 01:22 PM
What does one mean by saying apple is a bad company?



Question 1) is apple bad at making products because the cube failed?

i think apple is a good product maker and i think even the cube was a good product even though sales were poor...yes, the cube was not that bad in my opinion and i know few may agree with me there

Question 2) is apple a bad company business wise?

most definitely...let's put it this way, i am glad apple made my ibook and i am also glad that apple inc. is not my accountant or banker...ok?

to say that apple is a good company because they have not lost as much as hp-compaq is a bad comparison and to say that apple is making a profit is not worth a damn if the stock value does not reflect that in any way...remember, apple inc is a publicly traded company and under those circumstances, a company lives or dies by its stock value regardless of net profits...we are not talking about a mom and pop fruit stand here with a single proprietorship business setup

dantec
Dec 3, 2001, 01:32 PM
Two years ago... (yes it was far in the past... I'm 13 now)... I started 7th grade (In Switzerland that counts as High School, don't ask me why!) we had to buy laptops. The school recommened Acers... What a hunk of Junk! 20 out of 24 acers where sent back for repair during half of their first year! Some the screen snapped off (not by force just by closing it), others the motherboard started fuming... you can just imagine the havoc.

I had always used PC's but my "primary" school always had macs (I learned DOS at the age of 4, you might not believe it but my dad made me sit infront of an IBM PS/2... I also had fun deleting windows system files... since I didn't know what they where :) Yes I did spill coke on the machine and destroyed it's time recognition chip and everytime it shutdown it forgot the time!) but I learned how to use the Mac OS, and adored it (I think it was system 7 back then...).

Anyway... I had a Compaq Presario 1260 at the time & when the iBook came out I fell in LOVE WITH IT! I got one immediately... (My Compaq is in a cuboard somewhere, collecting dust) and was made fun of for the first couple of months. They said... "Ha ha ha... It doesn't even have a diskette drive... Ha Ha Ha". As soon as they saw me play Quake (which none of there ****** acers could not do...) they suddenly realezed something... That my Mac could play a game decently and their Acers couldn't do ****! They also realized that my iBook is cheaper than one of those crap acers and was faster, could run word (A Microsoft program)... They also saw that it had enough power to emulate windows...

I have now converted 4 people of class to buy Macs (1 Icebook, 1 Powerbook & 1 Powermac). Noone makes fun of it anymore, and now that they saw my iPod today, the mood has really changed...!

Anyway... I am now a Mac faithful... Saw the real world... And if anyone wants to join me in MURDERING Bill Gates I would love in doing so... (just a joke)...

P.S. Now you know what my signature below really means...

Chris George
Dec 3, 2001, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Xapplimatic
I think Macs sell themselves to people when they get tired of Windows shenanigans. In the last year alone, I converted three friends and my mothers off of their PCs over to Macs.


I think that what some people might interpret 'sell themselves' as would be a display at your local Apple Store with 30+ iMacs and G4's stacked up - and people rusing in, grabbing one and throwing cash at the cashier on the way out - all because they saw it in the window.

I think that it might be better said that Apple computers' users sell the Apple brand.

I am a Multimedia Developer - former PeeCee user. A new employee we hired converted me. Our entire graphics department is now Mac based (on an NT network). My old boss now owns a G4. The Java developer owns a dual G4, I bought a Snow iMac for home, my brother bought an iMac based upon my recommendation - and I didn't even own a Mac for home at the time. I work on a PowerBook Pismo 400.

This is all due to one diehard Mac user that opened our eyes.

So, it's my opinion that the point made by Xapplimatic is perfectly valid, and certainly an important one.

Thanks for listening,

Chris George
Edmonton, Canada

jefhatfield
Dec 3, 2001, 01:57 PM
dantec

wow, you have really got your act together so early and that is good if you want to be a tech

in two years of being a pc tech in and around silicon valley, i am yet to meet, in thousands of people, a programmer with a computer science degree

i know of one ex-programmer with an associates degree in computer science and an ex-onsite lcd display tech who had his associates in computer science

this is mostly because many programmers i met got paid for the first time, sometimes really well, before they finished high school and the silicon valley recruits good talent, regargless of age...so you got a future

unlike medicine, where you need a mandatory 8 or so years of college, and teaching public schools, which ususally requires 5 years of schooling (with a credential), the IT field wants good people right now no matter how young they are...the IT field is the world's most competitive and today's sales are important because there may not be a tomorrow in this field

just look at teenage and former teenage phenoms named dell, gates, jobs, ellison, and that napster guy

btw, i met a retired and well off programmer in silicon valley...oh, and he wasn't even an american citizen, and he was, let's see, the ripe old age of 21 or 22 with nearly 10 years at companies like ibm ...i don't know how silicon valley gets around child labor laws ;-)

i learned in business school, where i got my BA in human relations (personnel management), that you have to be 15 1/2 to legally work as a full employee at any american business/company as i was when i worked for straw hat corporation

that is mostly why the permit driving age is also 15 1/2 years old in the usa which i think should be raised...but that's another issue!

but remember bill gates was only 14 when microsoft was still called traf-o-data before he and paul allen later applied for a proper corporate status and decided to call their software company microsoft in the 1970s (microsoft's first programs were an antiquated operating system which was used to control the traf-o-date roadway traffic counters you see on today's roads and highways)

...first year profits for the two kids' business was $50,000 (1970s dollars, folks)...i guess bill's parents stopped giving him allowance at that point!

[Edited by jefhatfield on 12-03-2001 at 07:26 PM]

jefhatfield
Dec 3, 2001, 02:06 PM
i know the law says you have to be 15 1/2 years of age, but i was two and a half months shy of my 15th birthday when i worked for straw hat coporation

but now that does not matter i guess since the pizzas still came out kind of ok

AmbitiousLemon
Dec 3, 2001, 07:36 PM
when i say apple is a bad company i mean this:

apple has by far a superior product... even its failures are brilliant

apple has stayed ahead in r&d despite several times being very close to bankruptcy

despite these two factors apple has failed to sell its machines to more than 5% of the market

any company that has better r&d and better products fails to sell its products and becomes known among its consumers as a joke and relies on its loyal customers to work hard to reverse the stigma that apple itself has created is doing a very poor job as a company.

come on people if i handed you a product that was 10x better than anything else and was at least 5 years ahead of the competition and asked you to sell it, you would have to be a moron if you failed.

im constantly shocked at the lack of an apple presence in the media. i have never seen the ipod commercial. in fact the last apple commercial i ever saw was for the Tibook when it first came out a year ago. but here im going to turn the tv on now and see how long it is before i see a wintel commercial. now i dont have cable so there are only 7 major broadcasting channels but lets see here. ok just flipping through the channels and poof 2 minutes flat and a gateway commercial. we could keep playing but i think ive proved my point.

evildead
Dec 4, 2001, 01:04 PM
BMW and mercedies only have 5% of the market combined in the U.S. So they must be even worse companies. I think Apple is great. They have created great products and pushed technology. They have even been called one of the best compaies to work for. A Gay Group (im not sure wich one but its a very big one) Called Apple one of the to 10 Co's to work for due to their non-discriminatory way of doing busness and taking care of their employees. Now MS is a bad company. They are still in Law suites with their employees over medical and other beenifits. For a while they would only highr people for 39 hours a week as part timers so they didnt have to give them medical, detal, vision, vacation, etc. THAT is a bad company

AmbitiousLemon
Dec 4, 2001, 01:20 PM
good points evil. but i still think a lot of us just dont want accept apple is a bad company because we love our computers so much.

bmw is known as a luxury vehicle. its a status symbol. and it certainly has respect. any american will tell you bmw makes some of the best stuff.

also the automobile industry isnt the best parallel to draw for manyy reasons. i'll just point out one here. no automobile company has a markey share much better than 5%.

apple on the other hand is a joke in the market. only apple users will tell you apple is the best. if apple wants to market itself as the bmw of computing then it needs to gain some respect.

agreed ms is a bad company but in a very different way.

i think most of us would want to work for apple, hell im not even interested in computers as a career and id still take a job at apple in a second (although i would have to leave after i finish my phd).

apple has a ton of great qualities as a company but the main job of a company is to sell its product (or service) and apple has largely failed at this despite having truly brilliant and revolutionary products.

if apple took 20% of the market and started practices similiar to ms id still say they are a bad company... but in a different way.

dantec
Dec 4, 2001, 01:30 PM
Apple is a great company but has some serious issues with marketing... Who thinks those iMac commericals where useless? I don't know anyone who would buy an iMac after seeing it in 360 angels?!?

Apple is also the only company out there developing a OS, apps & hardware. The money might be more tight between all 3 projects than a big overbloated MS who spends so much money promoting how ****** XP is! After seeing that commercial I don't think I really want to fly!

A bit of humor:
To some idiot would thinks that they will spend less on airfares because they can fly if they buy XP!

Well actually ambitions lemon, not any comptuer maker holds very much market share! It is spit between 20 (or more that's all I can think at the moment) competitors.

Foocha
Dec 4, 2001, 01:49 PM
I can't believe we're discussing Apple being a "bad" company.

This is the company that everyone had written off in '97. No one gave them a chance. This is the company that came back from the dead - the Lazarus company.

I honestly don't believe that anyone back in '97 gave Apple a chance. They were history.

Then the Next team came along and Jobs took the helm and things are looking very different. Jef, of course share price is important to a public limited company, but the fact that Apple is the only major PC manufacturer making a profit right now is significant and reflects well on Apple's senior management.

In fact, Apple's management team are so strong in many areas the organisation is beating Dell at their own game. I fell off my chair the first time I heard Fred Anderson & Jobs comparing themselves to Dell - Apple may have classy marketing, but Dell have classy hardware and management. These days Apple can hold their heads up high next to the big players.

Final evidence I would put forward in favour of Apple's industry leading management is the speed with which they developed OS X - a stunning product which is a strong platform for future growth. Apple had tried for so many years to create a next gen operating system, but it took Jobs and the Next crew to make it a reality.

The Apple of today is a strong, credible, best of breed business - which has done the impossible - returned from the grave to gain market share against a monopolistic collossus.

[Edited by Foocha on 12-04-2001 at 02:51 PM]

jefhatfield
Dec 4, 2001, 06:34 PM
i would liken apple more to the brooklyn dodgers

apple coming back from the dead in '97 was like the '55 brooklyn dodgers who finally beat the hardy new york yankees

but after that, the brooklyn dodgers did not win armfuls of world series like the yankees have ever since

what great gains apple realized with the imac has been almost all but gone mostly with a raping of their stock value from well over a hundred down to what it is today and expensive bloopers like the cube (which i liked anyway) and the 18 months it took apple to develop the paisley and blue dalmation imacs

... and there is no company called apple today that is heading into the 100 billion dollar mark cash surplus like that redmond company up north (heck, bill gates is worth 55-60 billion alone...and this being in the time after the dot.com crash!)

if you asked me two years ago, i would say, "sure, apple will have 90 billion in cash reserves like microsoft", only if their stock hits 150 a share which i was sure it would have done then (i would have even ventured to say that apple could have captured 15 percent of the market and gone in over 200 a share...the sky looked like the limit then for apple and a lot of other companies like yahoo, webvan, amazon, etc.)

the last i heard, apple has 4 billion in cash reserves and their stock is under 20 a share but i don't dare check anymore these days

and comparing apple as the best in a tubful of sinking pc companies is not the best place to be

apple needs to be a finacially stable company again and we can't think because we personally like their machines, that their management of funds must also be good

if i had to do mba school again, i would learn a lot more from apple's legendary financial bloopers than from all the harvard case studies that b-school pushes

apple is like a pitcher who starts his season with a no-hitter and follows his season up with 19 straight losses

i have been a user of apple computers since '82 and it seems to be their trend...hit a home run but still lose the game

look over somewhat near where you live...delorean was the coolest sportscar i have ever seen and the thing kicked serious butt, but that did not make them "financial" geniuses and the company went bust

if apple does well, the numbers will reflect that and their stock will go up...smart people put their money in companies they trust and right now, that is not with apple

so don't listen to me, look at the numbers on wall street for any measure of the "truth"

but what else is new?

so look at companies over the "long" term and don't rest on 4 year old laurels...if you are in high tech like me, you will know that 4 years is like a millenium (but the move to save apple in '97 still qualifies as a great feat, i just wish apple followed up with a couple of more great feats since then so we wouldn't be discussing this topic on macrumors

[Edited by jefhatfield on 12-04-2001 at 07:47 PM]

dantec
Dec 4, 2001, 09:54 PM
The problem with some stupid PC users is they think Apple will dissapear into bankruptcy. They do not get it in their small heads that that will not happen. - at least not overnight. I agree with all of you that Apple's Stock is a joke. Why the heck did they split it !!!?!!! Many PC users think that the death of the cube is a sign of warning, that Apple will never sell one more Mac, and the 25 million of us are all doomed!

We need to make them understand (somehow) that Apple is not going to become a past company. Apple needs to do more advertising, but not one of their 360 views of a Damlation iMac. They need to show people about their products. I think their retail stores are a great place to show this.

I personally liked Blue dalmation a lot. But I hated flowerpower.

Foocha
Dec 5, 2001, 02:15 AM
Jef - surely you know better than to assume that a bunch of city slickers in Wall Street know anything about the truth.

If the dotcom collapse showed us anything, it showed us that stock markets wouldn't recognise real value if it came up and bit them on the nose.

Wall Streets method for judging the value of a company is the equivalent of a bunch of whispering old ladies gossiping about subjects they know little or nothing about. It's a frightening thought that they hold the global economy by the balls.

BTW - Apple's stock now stands at 22.4, a 3 month high, and is still rising. Effortlessly outperforming the PC sector.

jefhatfield
Dec 5, 2001, 02:31 AM
mathematics is the international language and the numbers tell the only objective point of view

hey everybody, spin any angle you would like and be subjective like a lot of the posts have been on this thread and all you will do is pretend that a sub-20 a share apple is doing as well as a 120 a share apple...go ahead and convince yourself that one plus one equals three...but that will not change the reality that one plus one equals two

it is true that apple will not vanish overnight, but they have to get their financials in order and like dantec said, they need better advertising...not some 360 degree view of the imac

thank god us mac users (just about everyone i have seen on macrumors) are relatively loyal to apple and i will still love their products even if apple never reaches better than five percent of the market

it would just be nice to see apple hang onto to a real gain for a change much like ebay and microsoft did with the majority of their forward momentum

jefhatfield
Dec 5, 2001, 02:42 AM
if this was about my personal fulfillment in life or my spiritual point of view, i would not trust wall street as my truth per se

ok, let's be happy about where apple stands right now and make it a non-profit and put it on the puka shell exchange and elect richard hatch as our president and all attend parrothead concerts

while apple is a company on wall street's stock market, apple has to win by their rules and while one hundred cents equal one dollar, we have to go by that basic reality

sometimes i wish apple were a smaller independent business not at the mercy of investors and stockholders

Foocha
Dec 5, 2001, 03:27 AM
In the dotcom boom we saw a whole lot of overvalued companies (ebay, etoys, Amazon, Cisco, Marconi...)

Now we have the reverse situation with many companies undervalued - namely companies like Apple.

So much of Wall Street's decision making is based on sentiment and superstition rather than cold hard business fact and good judgement. When you add in the volatile effect of day traders you have a dangerously schizophrenic combination.

Of course Wall Street is extremely important. But I challenge you Jef on the assumption that today's share price represents a good metric for evaluating the performance of a business over the longer term. The events of September had a big impact on share prices, and the perceived value of companies on NYSE & NASDAQ, but that does not mean that the management of those companies suddenly became worse.

Foocha
Dec 5, 2001, 03:25 PM
The Apple share price stands at 23.76 at the time of this posting.

Follow this link to see how Apple has outperformed the NASDAQ over the last 12 months.

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/bigcharts/bigcharts.html?mode=basic&ticker=AAPL&mcomp=APPLE+COMPUTER+INC&compidx=nasdaq~3291&time=1yr&mocktick=1

Microsoft_Windows_Hater
Dec 5, 2001, 04:31 PM
Apple make greats products....True

Apple are reasonably sound in finances...True

Apple have a strong following...True

Apple have a good reputation...False

They need to market...NEED TO, and not some fancy iBook spinning with devices around it. That is too lame. People go 'look there is the laptop that you can plug an mp3 player into'.

It doesn't say, 5hr battery, Mac OS X, any device on the planet basically, iPod, lightness, durability, price. It just shows it floating around.

As if that is going to help in any way. They have to show to people like me, that is users of windows for such long periods who in fact hated macs, that they are a worthy product. I found out about it myself using the apple website. That is a great peace of advertising, yet it again is barely shown.

I love my Mac, and have stopped hating microsoft, to a point. I dont use windows, but i use Office v.x, thats what microsoft should do, make office suites. I have sold in 8 months 2 iBook's, 2 Powerbook's and another 8 iBook's are on the way. That is from someone who used to love to hate them.

Its finally time to prove to the world that Apple Computer's are great. There are so many fantastic products, its just time to start the advertising. Who cares if it eats a billion of Apple's cash, it will be worth it in the end.

My two cents

evildead
Dec 5, 2001, 05:08 PM
Apple gets lots of respect in the right industries. If you Shop at CompUSA the workers there never even venture into the Mac Section (exept in SanFransico... that is an impressive Apple display) But if you work in the Web desine, Music, or fiml industry; then Apple gets mad respect. At the Berkley School of Music in Bostin, aguably one of the best Music schools in the nation or even the world, they have rows and rows of Supped up G4's to teach with. Check out the latest EQ magazine. Every other add has an apple logo or image of a G4 on it some place... and they are NOT Apple Adds. Venders just like to brag that it their products work with Macs. Episode I anyone? All the CGI was made with Macs (i beleve). Remeber that kid that submitted some art he did and it got in to movie? Lucus put him on the pay roll for making a ship or something like that on his Mac at home. He got to come into the work shop and work with the pros!! I saw the interview on the news durring all the Starwars hype. I think Apple do have the same kind "clout". "Only pros use them". True I get trashed at geek.com a lot for being a MacHead and my budy that works for MS thinks he knows something about computers and likes to go 10 rounds with me... (he had to call me for Tech support when he jamed his a-drive with a bacwards floppy...and he works for MS!) When my buddies come over and they see the glory that is my QuickSilver with a 17' Apple LCD. Even the die hard Windows users have to say "wow.. thats one hell of a computer" . I get respect arround the office. I work for a defence contractor. All of our real work is done in UNIX or Linux. We all have to check our email with our Win2000 boxes but hey.. its just email and powerpoint. When I show off how OS X is UNIX based... People arround here know how powerfull Macs can be.

wow .. that was a long rant :)

[Edited by evildead on 12-05-2001 at 06:11 PM]

jefhatfield
Dec 6, 2001, 08:23 AM
i think apple has a good reputation for products and a bad reputation for running a business (it has always been seen that way where i live in northern california and silicon valley among everybody who is not a mac zealot)

zealots are idiots and don't like to hear things that mess with their "reality"

i can think of no company in recent american history that has lost momentum the way apple has right after a huge breakthrough product

apple has many of the best engineers and most likely has some good management people but steve jobs is the absolute worst when it comes to managing a company and that is the reason he once got fired from the company he helped start

without steve jobs, we would have not entered the home cumputer revolution as soon as we did and i can think of no person who can build a great following with a product and introduce it with such class and flair...he is a genius but that does not make him the best financial decision maker anymore than it makes einstein (the great scientist) a world class basketball player

where are all the articles that think steve jobs is a good ceo now? where is the confidence in apple as a good investment on the stock exchange? this is not a topic to be looked as subjectively or with an emotional slant...apple is as good at making computers as it is bad at retaining money or keeping the stockholders happy

don't get me wrong, apple is the best computer ever but i know the difference between a good money manager and a bad one and it does not take a millionaire or rocket scientist to see that in the business sector, apple is not the strongest company mostly because it was built around steve jobs' personality and his convenient way to spin a bad situation and make it look good and somehow believe in it himself

it is the most disappointing macworlds where steve jobs spins the prettiest webs and now more and more, us mac users are not impressed

we don't want hype in january...we want 1 GHz, G5s, or an LCD imac. period.

his way of outright deception (the reality distortion field as steve jobs and his style are called in business circles) makes for a whole culture of computer users who like to bend the facts because of the example steve jobs leads with

i only wish that the woz would come back to help take over the company because in truth, apple was at its most stable with him around because "he" is the real reason behind apple, inc

i am not saying the woz is the best businessman either but he is certainly more trusted and respected by us techies by far and that type of good word is what i think apple will need to get back into the higher realms of the stock market

steve jobs saved apple in 1997 and he should be congragulated for that feat...he just does not know how to follow through and every day, i think more and more that apple might need a new ceo someday yet sometimes it might be him keeping the fragile five percent market share intact because the mac faithful love him so much and a lot of the younger mac users i meet under thirty have no idea who steve wozniak was

read the book infinite loop

and check out http://www.woz.org for a more balanced view of what apple is really about

now this is at least one of several posts i have made on this thread way off topic (my usual style) so i will stop now...was this thread called something like from pc to mac?

Foocha
Dec 6, 2001, 08:52 AM
Woz left Apple before the Mac was developed. Woz has absolutely nothing to do with the Mac - he is a very nice guy though.

Seve Jobs was just a boy when he was booted out of Apple before - he's now a lot older and a lot wizer. He's not a nice guy like Woz, but who ever said that business was about being nice.

Falleron
Dec 6, 2001, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Foocha
Woz left Apple before the Mac was developed. Woz has absolutely nothing to do with the Mac - he is a very nice guy though.

Seve Jobs was just a boy when he was booted out of Apple before - he's now a lot older and a lot wizer. He's not a nice guy like Woz, but who ever said that business was about being nice.

How can you say steve jobs is not a nice guy?? Have you met him??

oldMac
Dec 6, 2001, 09:26 AM
He must have bought it at about 110 to be so pissed off about its current valuation.

Did you get out of your position, Jef?

Mood Indigo
Dec 6, 2001, 09:37 AM
Greetings from a first-time poster.

I have been reading this thread and must say I am in total agreement with those who feel Apple needs to do a better job at marketing themselves and their product. My three words for Apple: Advertise, advertise, advertise! And not just in Macworld and other Mac publications. And not just in business mags like Business Week. They need to be advertising in diverse mags like Teen People, Smithsonian, Playboy, whatever. And I agree that more TV ads are needed, as well as better ones that show what the Mac can do, not just how cool it looks.

Is there ANYONE in the US (with a TV, anyway) who does not know that Microsoft just released XP? You've got Madonna singing and people flying, and it's ubiquitous. You cannot turn the TV on without seeing one of their ads, and just in time for Christmas!

Everyone knows that Microsoft has, er, flattered Apple occasionally in the most sincere form (imitation). Here is a case where Apple should be imitating Microsoft.

As a long term Mac user, I don't mind singing the praises of Apple products to friends, but I don't think it should be our responsibility solely. Apple needs to pick up the slack.

[Edited by Mood Indigo on 12-06-2001 at 10:40 AM]

AmbitiousLemon
Dec 6, 2001, 09:49 AM
:) welcome to macrumors MoodIndigo, i believe it was just under a week ago that i posted my first message.

I think most people have been upset about my calling apple a "bad company." We all seem to agree apple hasnt been doing its job advertising. and most of us agree that this has resulted in ignorant peecee users creating a myth about macs as being overpriced pieces of... um...coprolites. if you can agree to all that and cant agree that apple is therefore a "bad company" than i think perhaps you are unable of seeing past beautiful computers :) and if you are that maccentric i cant say i really mind. but do try to see the world without your mac tinted sunglasses sometime... i think you would be surprised at what that rest of the world is like. ;)

Foocha
Dec 6, 2001, 10:22 AM
I think Apple does a fantastic job at advertising and marketing their products - hence their recent success.

Apple spends more on advertising their products than any other PC manufacturer. Of course their marketing spend does not equal that of Microsoft this year, but I'm not sure that level of spend would be smart for a company of Apple's size.

As Jef points out, marketing is one of Job's strong points.

Mood Indigo
Dec 6, 2001, 10:41 AM
Hey there, Foocha. Perhaps you're right, and I'm just not seeing the ads. But I'm an avid reader, and I see Microsoft, Gateway, and Dell ads in nearly every magazine I read, but I only very rarely see Apple ads. Parade Magazine, which comes with our local Sunday paper, features a Dell ad EVERY WEEK. (The last Apple mag ad I remember seeing consistently were the "Think Different" ads with Ghandi, Einstein, etc., which, while very cool, didn't really say much about what the Mac would do.) I'm not a huge TV watcher, but I have seen at most one or two apple ads over the course of years (the Pentium smashing steamroller was one), while I see the XP ad--literally--every time I turn on CSI or The Guardian.

Grantted, that is anecdotal evidence, and hardly a scientific sampling. You may watch more TV than I do. ;) Just kidding.

I believe Apple has great products, or I wouldn't be a Mac user. But if were were Joe Schmoe casual firsttime computer buyer, I'm not even sure I'd know there was an alternative to Wintel out there. I still say Apple needs to do a better job of reaching out to those people where they read (like People magazine or Sports Illustrated) and watch TV (like "Survivor" or "Friends.")

Falleron
Dec 6, 2001, 10:46 AM
I think you will find that Apple is in the top few recognised brands in the world!!!

Foocha
Dec 6, 2001, 10:56 AM
The Apple brand routinely scores very highly in brand recognition research. Also, Apple has the highest level of loyalty of any PC manufacturer.

The best other PC brands like Dell can hope to represent is value - Apple stands for things like innovation and creativity - this is proven time and time again in research.

The brand is one of Apple Inc's most cherished assets. It was waining a bit back in '97, but the recent polish Jobs has given it has put the brand back where it belongs - it's a Superbrand - official.

Regarding Jobs, since I haven't met him, I can't comment on how "nice" he is. The point I was making earlier is that he's not a "nice" guy in the way Woz is always portrayed as a nice guy. How do I know Woz is a nice guy? Because Wired magazine and jefhatfield tell me ;)

agreenster
Dec 6, 2001, 11:00 AM
FROM AMBITIOUS LEMON- "Episode I anyone? All the CGI was made with Macs (i beleve)."


No, they use SGI's. (Unix) Check out http://www.ilm.com and check out their job oppurtunities section. They want people with Unix experience. Most large studios write their own 3D software similar to Maya, and use Unix as their OS.

Foocha
Dec 6, 2001, 11:10 AM
Macs were used in the development of animatics - simple animated storyboards in the pre-production phase. Lucas is on record as saying this - I think this is shown in one of the documentaries on the DVD. It's cheap, quick, flexible and easy for them to do it this way with a Mac & final cut pro.

Macs were certainly not used to produce any of the final effects. Imagine - it would have taken them years to render all that on a Mac!!!

Falleron
Dec 6, 2001, 11:17 AM
Could have been worse!! Could have been rendered on a pc (running windows)!

AmbitiousLemon
Dec 6, 2001, 11:20 AM
im still pondering that thumbs down icon next to my name... so harsh.

im gonna go play snood and sulk.

justthefacts
Dec 6, 2001, 11:29 AM
15,000 grand for a dual cpu intel based ? not even close. It always kills me when i hear about macs being speed/performance tested against intel based. They always test like cpu clock speeds but forget that macs cost about 3x more. Right now 524 mb of mem. for a "wintel" is about 40 bucks. That dual 800 you spoke of could have 2 gig of mem and STILL cost much less than a mac. And it would probably blow the mac away in almost all areas if not all areas. Macs are specifically designed for graphic intense programs, or atleast it would seem that way. The macs are great "for their specific purpose" but as a general use machine they are a joke. That is why the average person will not buy them, and why the average person could never justify the cost. Have the macs even gone to a two button mouse yet ? On my wintel I have four monitors via a matrox MMS video card, it is also cable ready via a matrox card in addition to DVD, USB etc etc. Sure drivers are always something to install. But the fact is the following.
And i will make this very clear.

The "REALM" of possiblity with a "wintel" is MUCH MUCH greater than that of any mac. Clearly you can do more iwth a wintel, and you can do it cheaper and easier. WIth the greater realm of what you can do with the system also comes a greater realm of potential complications. That is just math pure and simple. For the people that compare macs as the mercedes of computers, if you look at what you can and CANT do with them, they are actually the Yugos. However they carry the pricetag of a mercedes. Its a paradox for sure.

It does not really matter what Mac does, until they address the above issue of USE, and expand the realm of what can and cant be done with a mac..they will never enjoy a larger market share. Macs are specilized systems. Microsoft and Intel designed their systems and technology to save people time, increase the realm of possiblity and counted on most people buying their product which in turn drove the prices down. Basically, they designed it for the masses. I do not put down the macs, they excel in their speciality and are clearly the better choice in some circumstances. But to hear mac people put down the wintel's is quite troubling and unfair. Microsoft revolutionized the computer world. The made computers easy and friendly for the average schmoe ! That schmoe who now has a computer is a potential customer, user, etc. Give them credit !

Just my opinion, but I feel it is a very solid one.


Additionally, there is one other area that mac is not looking at. They try to hoard their systems. What ?
Think about it.
I can buy parts and build a wintel from a host of different manufacturers. Can you do that with a mac ? OH NO !
Furthermore, mac doesnt even consider the "reseller community." If i was a computer reseller can i easily resell macs ? OH NO.

The real question is...do they really want to sell more macs ? From their actions....I would answer a clear and resounding NO !

[Edited by justthefacts on 12-06-2001 at 12:35 PM]

akuma
Dec 6, 2001, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by justthefacts
Right now 524 mb of mem. for a "wintel" is about 40 bucks.
Unless you've been livin in the 90's Mac and Wintel machines generally use the same RAM. (pc133)

Macs are specifically designed for graphic intense programs, or atleast it would seem that way. The macs are great "for their specific purpose" but as a general use machine they are a joke. That is why the average person will not buy them, and why the average person could never justify the cost.

Mac's are designed to be easy to use computers than just about anyone can start up and get something done on. At the time I bought my first mac, I was an "average" computer user. I bought a performa 6360 for around 2 grand.

I justified the cost by knowing that I would probably never have to replace a network card, a monitor cable, a modem, a keyboard, etc. I've had that computer for 7 years now almost and haven't had to replace a single thing! And I still use it quite frequently, since it is my print server.

I have since bought 2 other macs, a blue and white G3 and a G4 cube, and I haven't had a trouble with either of them.

Have the macs even gone to a two button mouse yet ?

How is this even relavent?

On my wintel I have four monitors via a matrox MMS video card, it is also cable ready via a matrox card in addition to DVD, USB etc etc. Sure drivers are always something to install.

I don't have it on mine but I know people who also have multiple monitors for thier macs, and it's a simple process of opening the computer, and putting a new card in. Not to bad and usually not a driver issue.

The "REALM" of possiblity with a "wintel" is MUCH MUCH greater than that of any mac. Clearly you can do more iwth a wintel, and you can do it cheaper and easier.
This may have been true about 5 years ago but with the mac system being pretty much the same components as a wintel box (ata drives, ide cd's, pc133 ram, pci cards, agp slots, etc..) this point is nearly non-existent these days.

WIth the greater realm of what you can do with the system also comes a greater realm of potential complications. That is just math pure and simple. For the people that compare macs as the mercedes of computers, if you look at what you can and CANT do with them, they are actually the Yugos. However they carry the pricetag of a mercedes. Its a paradox for sure.

What can't you do on a mac that you can do on a pc? Go ahead, fill me in.

Macs are specilized systems.

True
Microsoft and Intel designed their systems and technology to save people time, increase the realm of possiblity and counted on most people buying their product which in turn drove the prices down. Basically, they designed it for the masses.
After getting the idea from the macintosh.

I do not put down the macs, they excel in their speciality and are clearly the better choice in some circumstances.
This contradicts your above comments

But to hear mac people put down the wintel's is quite troubling and unfair. Microsoft revolutionized the computer world. The made computers easy and friendly for the average schmoe !
Microsoft doesn't make computers. And what they do make is a product that has a tight grip on society because of their monopolistic business practices.

justthefacts
Dec 6, 2001, 02:21 PM
Right now 524 mb of mem. for a "wintel" is about 40 bucks.
Unless you've been livin in the 90's Mac and Wintel machines generally use the same RAM. (pc133)

Yes this is true, I forgot. I was only addressing the fact that agreenster said that a dual 800 plus a lot of memory was 15 thousand. That is a gross exaggeration.


Macs are specifically designed for graphic intense programs, or atleast it would seem that way. The macs are great "for their specific purpose" but as a general use machine they are a joke. That is why the average person will not buy them, and why the average person could never justify the cost.

Mac's are designed to be easy to use computers than just about anyone can start up and get something done on. At the time I bought my first mac, I was an "average" computer user. I bought a performa 6360 for around 2 grand.

Well...is that is the case why dont more people buy them ? And I know people that have LOTS of troubles with Macs. The illusion you present that "mac's never have issues" is simply not true. My cousin and best friend is a DIE HARD mac guy, has been from the start and I have seen him have troubles with that machine. I dont have troubles with my "wintels" so what does that mean ? Does it mean wintels are perfect ? No, it means i know what i am doing, and perhaps my cousin doesnt, although I know he does. Its all relative. You cannot make such generalizations. The fact is, most systems used by most people are wintels and damned if the world doesnt keep going around pretty smooth !

I justified the cost by knowing that I would probably never have to replace a network card, a monitor cable, a modem, a keyboard, etc. I've had that computer for 7 years now almost and haven't had to replace a single thing! And I still use it quite frequently, since it is my print server.

I have two laptops and three desktops and have never replaced any of those things...so what are you insinuating ? And if a nic goes bad how is that the fault of intel tech. or microsoft ???? Get real. Now microsoft and intel are responsible for keyboard and nic manufacturers and their cards going bad ?

I have since bought 2 other macs, a blue and white G3 and a G4 cube, and I haven't had a trouble with either of them.

Have the macs even gone to a two button mouse yet ?

How is this even relavent?

I like two buttons, and wont use a computer that reduces my tools for input into the system.

On my wintel I have four monitors via a matrox MMS video card, it is also cable ready via a matrox card in addition to DVD, USB etc etc. Sure drivers are always something to install.

I don't have it on mine but I know people who also have multiple monitors for thier macs, and it's a simple process of opening the computer, and putting a new card in. Not to bad and usually not a driver issue.

Not as common on macs. and you have to put in a card for EACH monitor. Would there be room for anything else ?

The "REALM" of possiblity with a "wintel" is MUCH MUCH greater than that of any mac. Clearly you can do more iwth a wintel, and you can do it cheaper and easier.
This may have been true about 5 years ago but with the mac system being pretty much the same components as a wintel box (ata drives, ide cd's, pc133 ram, pci cards, agp slots, etc..) this point is nearly non-existent these days.

Thats not true at all ! Its not about the technology, its about how easy it is to do, how common, and how readily available things are. Most people dont even know that mac has FINALLY started using the same peripherals that intel uses in order to try to reduce their user friendliness issues.

WIth the greater realm of what you can do with the system also comes a greater realm of potential complications. That is just math pure and simple. For the people that compare macs as the mercedes of computers, if you look at what you can and CANT do with them, they are actually the Yugos. However they carry the pricetag of a mercedes. Its a paradox for sure.

What can't you do on a mac that you can do on a pc? Go ahead, fill me in.

What is the max charactor count in a thread ? Wouldnt it exceed it ?

Macs are specilized systems.

True
Microsoft and Intel designed their systems and technology to save people time, increase the realm of possiblity and counted on most people buying their product which in turn drove the prices down. Basically, they designed it for the masses.
After getting the idea from the macintosh.

So if they got the idea from mac, why did mac get away from it ?

I do not put down the macs, they excel in their speciality and are clearly the better choice in some circumstances.
This contradicts your above comments

No it doesnt, I am not putting down a mac but simply defining why most people will by an intel based. It is just analyzing, not judging.

But to hear mac people put down the wintel's is quite troubling and unfair. Microsoft revolutionized the computer world. The made computers easy and friendly for the average schmoe !
Microsoft doesn't make computers. And what they do make is a product that has a tight grip on society because of their monopolistic business practices.

If they have a monopoly it is because they have been so successful and it was INEVITABLE ! No one starts out as being a monopoly. They simply got into the spot they are in because they made it easy for EVERYONE. More people have goten rich selling microsoft products, intel products and intel based technology in general. If not for microsoft and intel there would be a LOT less people with systems. That would be a bad thing for a lot of reasons.

justthefacts
Dec 6, 2001, 02:53 PM
The fact is that Microsoft is NOT at fault for being what many of you call a "monopoly." They did a better job of marketing, listening to the consumer, and producing products that have a broad scope of capabilities and combined with the intel architecture that was already dominent and readily available the two have dominated the computer industry.
Unix variants and Macs are harder to attack with virus and excel in certain areas but it is all limited to certain areas of the overall field. Mac has made decisions that have helped unisolate them. And they were ISOLATED in their technology. They chose to be all alone and take their chances. I think that when Mac decided to move their technology in the direction of being friendly to the other technology it was clear proof of defeat. Much like saying "if you cant beat them, join them."

Macs are good systems, so is unix, wintel. They all play a part in this industry but on different levels and areas.

What I do not like, is mac people putting down wintel's. It is the same as putting down the people that buy wintel's. Which is rude.
You bought your system for your reasons.
Others buy theirs for their reasons.

That is how the world works.

Microsoft is a better ran company when you judge by bottom line.

Funny how you do not find wintelrumors.com that holds a forum of wintel owners criticizing mac owners/users.

Because we are busy living, enjoying, and being happy.

Perhaps some of you should do the same !

The fact is that IF mac wanted to gain more market share, they have high paid analyst to tell them how to do it.

I think they realy choose NOT to.

But the pictures you paint of network cards being bad, replacing keyboards etc etc is just not fair or realistic.
That is not how it goes !

Most of the systems out there are WINTEL's and the world keeps spinning so something out there somewhere must be working.

But the fact is that mac computers are not as "user friendly" as wintels. That cannot be seriously disputed.
Can you just drag your program folder to another folder and have the program still work...yes. But most people dont know anything about that.

And NO..the most complicated software and hardware will not run on a mac.

The fact is if mac wanted to gain market share they need to quite ignoring computer resellers. They are the companies that sell most of the products and steer public opinion.

For example, how often do you see a mac web server ?
Almost never !

Can it run dynamic web sites ? Asp, php, oracle, sql etc ?

So then when you deal with compatibility issues..who is going to do all of their work on a mac just to NOT be able to send reports and what not to the masses because MOSt people are on wintels ?

If mac REALLy wanted to gain market share, they should start building some wintels !

That is what they should REALLY do.
Offer the mac tech. and the wintel tech.
They could easily do it.
Let them instead enter the playing field of wintels and perfect it instead of trying to ignore it from across the ocean.

I do not think Mac could accomplish what the wintels have and do as well.
If the wintels never existed, we would have a much higher number of people without computers.

akuma
Dec 6, 2001, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by justthefacts
Yes this is true, I forgot. I was only addressing the fact that agreenster said that a dual 800 plus a lot of memory was 15 thousand. That is a gross exaggeration.

I believe he said 3 gigs of memory, in which case it would probably up the cost significantly since you'll have to outfit it with memory risers, etc.

Well...is that is the case why dont more people buy them ? And I know people that have LOTS of troubles with Macs. The illusion you present that "mac's never have issues" is simply not true.
I wasn't insinuating that mac's never have problems, I'm just saying that mine haven't had any.

My cousin and best friend is a DIE HARD mac guy, has been from the start and I have seen him have troubles with that machine. I dont have troubles with my "wintels" so what does that mean ? Does it mean wintels are perfect ? No, it means i know what i am doing, and perhaps my cousin doesnt, although I know he does. Its all relative. You cannot make such generalizations.

Nor can you. Just because you haven't had any problems doesn't count out the fact that some people will, just like the the argument you made above. Our two senarios hardly correlate to the thousands of other people that have had a mac die or a compaq die, etc.

I have two laptops and three desktops and have never replaced any of those things...so what are you insinuating ? And if a nic goes bad how is that the fault of intel tech. or microsoft ???? Get real. Now microsoft and intel are responsible for keyboard and nic manufacturers and their cards going bad ?

Well since apple bundles all thier devices together in a proprietary format you (or anybody) immediately blames apple for making a "crappy computer." This doesn't equate well in the "wintel" world if you try to compare it to just intel or only microsoft. Compare Apple to someone like Dell or Compaq/HP and it sits a little better.

Point is the above argument is irrelevent, if a nic goes bad in the a wintel computer, it's the manufacturer of the nic's fault. If a nic in the apple computer goes bad it's apples fault. Even though apple may not have made the nic, it still gets blamed for the fault. Only because it was in their computer.

Have the macs even gone to a two button mouse yet ?

Mine have, yes.

I like two buttons, and wont use a computer that reduces my tools for input into the system.

Some people find that less = more.

Not as common on macs. and you have to put in a card for EACH monitor. Would there be room for anything else ?

Sadly there are not any cards that have 4 monitor support for mac, but you can get cards that have dual monitor support, so it wouldn't take up too much room.

Thats not true at all ! Its not about the technology, its about how easy it is to do, how common, and how readily available things are. Most people dont even know that mac has FINALLY started using the same peripherals that intel uses in order to try to reduce their user friendliness issues.

Most people who use a mac, know this. And getting a peripheral for a mac isn't that hard, if you know where to look.

What is the max charactor count in a thread ? Wouldnt it exceed it ?

Clever :) . Go ahead, give me a couple of examples.

So if they got the idea from mac, why did mac get away from it ?
How have they gotten away from it?

I'm not trying to do a pc vs mac thing here. I like my mac and I think it is the best tool to do what I need to do. I'm not about "converting" pc users.

If you like PC's then by all means continue to use them.
I like mac's and I'll continue to use it.

What kind of computer(s) do you have by the way.

akuma
Dec 6, 2001, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by justthefacts
Funny how you do not find wintelrumors.com that holds a forum of wintel owners criticizing mac owners/users.

We don't generally criticize wintel users here, in fact most people here have/use wintels.

Because we are busy living, enjoying, and being happy

as are we

For example, how often do you see a mac web server ?
Almost never !

I've seen them around, macaddict for one, I'll see if I can find others.

Can it run dynamic web sites ? Asp, php, oracle, sql etc ?

yes (os x)

So then when you deal with compatibility issues..who is going to do all of their work on a mac just to NOT be able to send reports and what not to the masses because MOSt people are on wintels ?

Uhh, this argument is irrelevant. Mac's have been relatively cross platform and conforming to the Wintel society for years now.

justthefacts
Dec 6, 2001, 03:54 PM
Actually he said 16 Gig of memory. I took that as a joke.
I appreciate that you admit macs have problems, so many mac users submit the same opinion which is "macs never have problems and wintels are full of them."

I have always maintained that most problems are OE (operator error) or in the choice of configuration.

One major benefit to wintel's is the CHOICEs you have. Does mac offer a tv tuner ? Yes i believe there are one or two out there, but by far wintel's give you more options. And I love being able to build my own systems.

Most of the limitations in the macs these days are on the software side, although the hardware area has most of the same bases covered but with much less options in general. That is not even addressing how readily available those few choices are. Mac stores are few and far between for the average person, and getting someone to work on them is another story. And yes they do need worked on from time to time just like wintels. If the wintels were limited to the same software and hardware options as the macs then the problems with them would greatly reduce. That is a fact. Problems on wintels are generally caused by people loading to much "crap" on them. But i still prefer to use technology that gives me lots of options as to what to load and use on my system.

As to mac users "knowing where to look" to get peripherals, wintel user dont need to know where to look. The market is saturated.

And remember, I never started this out to be mac vs. pc issue either. I am simply stating why the macs are not the NORM and enjoying greater market share.

I do know their first step to gain market share should be to allow third party companies to openly develope mac based systems including the motherboards etc. And OPEN IT ALL UP.
That alone will expand the market and exposure.

If i, as a reseller, could build and sell macs I would seriously consider doing it ! I really would.

I am a reseller and in a few years have personally built and sold close to 1,000 computers. I have always picked my own parts and have had great success with warranties and performance over the long-haul. Sure the occasional cd-rom goes bad, but that is more because of the technology than anything else.

Personally my laptops are sceptre's http://www.sceptre.com and my home systems are clones I have built.
I am still on Dual PIII's.
I can build a dual PIII 900mhz with add on raid, mirrored and striped 40 giger, two gig of mem and all the bells and whistles for about 1,000.00. Of course the four 21 inch monitors ran me 500.00 a piece from sceptre, but that was worth it in my opinion.

I will also say that compaq and hp are jokes when it comes to serious systems. I dont stay up on the dells and gateway's anymore, but from past experience they probably are too in my opinion.

The basis for me staying in the wintel world is the options i have which I would not have in the mac world.

I sincerly wish mac would open their world up to resellers and the average joe schmoe.

justthefacts
Dec 6, 2001, 04:09 PM
I do want to address your comparison of mac to dell, compaq etc.

Its not really true.

Mac is like dell in that they sell OEM systems.
However, they are also like Intel that they drive the technology behind the chip.

They are also like microsoft that they control the OS.

So they are really all by themselves in how they control and operate the mac world.

They do NOT want anyone else building "macs". Heaven forbid another company could do it cheaper.
Unlike with a Wintel you cannot run another OS on a mac. You can run unix on a wintel, or dos, linux, solaris etc.

Mac decides to stay in their own little world, and by doing so they have alienated themselves. Their small market share is not because "wintel users dont know that macs are better." The people in this forum that think that mac simply needs to get more people to understand that are SERIOUSLY naive.

The fact is it starts in the schools, which if my info is correct, mac already has a great handle on. However, they lose people because the world is saturated with wintels. ANd that is NOT the fault of the monopolistic microsoft.
Microsoft is not a monopoly.
Most of their products are not sold to the end user by microsoft, but by resellers. The resellers drive the market, and that...and that only..is the KEY to mac getting a greater market share.

But..they know that.

and for whatever reason, they dont care. ANd i think it is because they know if they open it up, the resellers and other oems will do it better, and cheaper and put them OUT OF BUSINESS !
So they stay behind closed doors, and take their little 5% market share.

akuma
Dec 6, 2001, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by justthefacts
Unlike with a Wintel you cannot run another OS on a mac. You can run unix on a wintel, or dos, linux, solaris etc.
I don't disagree with any of you remarks except the above.

You can run linux (www.yellowdowlinux.com or http://www.linuxppc.com)and beOS (granted not a lot of choices) but if I absolutely had to i could run any variant of windows.

http://home.austin.rr.com/akuma/mac_windows.jpg
i only use windows to check on my access databases that I run at work, everything else I need software-side i already got on a mac.

other than that I think we are on the same page regarding apples marketing decisions.

:)

evildead
Dec 6, 2001, 06:08 PM
You can also run any blend of Windows by running Virtual PC. OS X is built on UNIX so if you bring up the scary looing termnial you are welcomed with the # promt. (well not really.. I think tch is the defalut shell. So Mac OS X is really 2 OS's in one or at least you can think of it that way if you want to. And as Akuma said.. you can run Linux on a Mac as well. True Apple harware is a pit picky about what runs on it but then again why would you want to run an inferior OS on a Mac anyway? I do runother OS's ontop of Mac OS.. but Mac OS is allways going to be there.

akuma
Dec 6, 2001, 06:24 PM
thats what that link in my post is, a screen shot of VPC running win98 and win2000.

hinkhous
Dec 6, 2001, 09:24 PM
I am still waiting to hear what you can do on a PC that you can't do on a Mac...Anyone else curious?

justthefacts
Dec 6, 2001, 10:42 PM
OK hinkhous and the rest of you. I checked with my cousin Steve, he is the most PRO Mac person I know (notice i actually capitalized the first letter of Mac that time :-).) and there isnt much if anything in hardware that you cant do on a Mac these days, although its definately not the way its always been. However, as he said.."the choices are definately limited." Which is unfortunate.
But when it comes to software there is a lot you cant do. Although the same could be said from a mac point of view about the wintels.

The Macs have come a long way from my perspective (wintel enthusiast), and I give them credit for this.
But to gain market share they have a long way to go.
One day they may view resellers as a formidable "sales force" and if they open those gates up, they might find a larger chunk of the market awaits them.

I love linux for what it is good for. I could never push linux boxes to the average person, nor could I do what i do on a linux box everyday. I definately could never ask my wife to learn linux. I see Mac the same way but BETTER. I could get my wife used to a Mac. But the fact is a reseller I dont expect to pay FULL price for a box, but with a mac I would have too. Furthermore there is no profit for me to sell them. Mac SHOULD consider me a "sales person" and get something set up so i can make money selling and pushing their systems, but instead they align themselves as my competitor, which means I will not push their products.

As we all know, when it really comes down to it, you can survive and prosper with a Mac or a Wintel. That applies to ALL OF US. There really isnt anything that you HAVE to do on a Mac or a Wintel. They both are formidable systems that cover all of the bases.
But this was all started because of market share.(?) And Mac is definately missing the boat on many issues. Even if they DONT drop prices, they could create a reseller program that allows the systems to pass through a reseller who can make a profit for pushing the system, and therefore more systems would be sold. The reseller deals with support, sells perepherials etc..and its all good.

But..Mac wants to stay secluded....hence the small market share.

I live in a medium sized town in Indiana. All of my business customers ask me what to buy, what technology to use. And since I can accomplish their goals with either Macs, or Wintels, I choose Wintels because I can make a profit selling them. Although two of my largest customers are radio stations and we have to use Wintels. Most companies do. Most people are FORCED into using wintels by third party companies and other reasons, but of course this is not microsoft's fault. In fact, Microsoft is NOT a monoply, we all have a choice, a clear choice. But the fact is, for most Microsoft and Intel are the BEST choice. You all think of it in terms of performance and speed etc. But the fact is that it is ALL ABOUT MONEY. If i have a client that pays me 30,000.00 for x number of computers and time spent configuring software for business purposes, there isnt much doubt that to accomplish the same general task in a mac world it would take a greater amount up front, not to mention to train people how to use the macs.

That is the bottom line, and its the ONLY line that matters.

So the issue is really two fold. Cost, and resellers. That is the heart of Macs' problem with gaining market share. As a man who enjoys options, I would love to have Mac in my stable of "solutions." but the fact is I wont sell their product for them, they wont allow me to make money selling their product...so they can just stay at 5% market share.
Several people in these forums have referred to wintels as just "word processor machines." That actually is a gross exaggeration, BUT..the fact is that documents, spreadsheets and databases are what drives the world for most people on their computers.
So excelling in that, specifically microsoft with their office suites is just good business. In fact, I would say its better business than what Mac manages to do. !

What are they really thinking I wonder ???????

The computer industry is all about compatiblity and the number of users/market share you have.
Why is Corel down so much ? Because Microsoft got Office packaged with so many OEM systems that it basically became the "norm" for wintels. So if you are on a wintel and use corel people look at you funny !
Is that monopolistic practices on microsoft's part ? NO NO NO, that is just good business.
All the people that criticize microsoft should remember this is AMERICA, home of free enterprise. There has never been anything that microsoft has done or been charged with that cant ALSO be argued is just good business, and there are some formidable people that do argue exactly that. And i mean objective third parties.

So to you all...lighten up !
If you were microsoft, you would have completly different opinion. And mac..is mac..and mac is where..it is..because they CHOOSe to be there. Or they are in denial..or they are greedy !
I think they are afraid to open up their systems to us resellers and other business, for obvious reasons. But the fact is that intel and microsoft to NOT drive the computer industry, not does compaq, dell, ibm etc.
The fact is that most systems are wintels but they come from so many different Oem's and clone builders that NO ONE has a overwhelming chunk of the share. That is how it should be !
Mac..is the one going against the grain, being greedy, and trying to gain market share and not let ANYONE else share in the profit. As long as that is their attitude, they will remain ALONe and not a major player. ANd in all actualy, in terms of dollars and cents they ARENT a major player in the computer industry, not relatively speaking they arent. 5% is NOTHING when you consider they numbers of everyone else. And when you consider 5% is what they represtent in terms of their systems, technology and OS..its really bad.

They should perhaps design the Mac os to run on an Intel based, or build a intel based Mac...they need some cross over and to open their world...they will do nothing but benefit from it. And if they fold...they deserve it.

[Edited by justthefacts on 12-07-2001 at 12:10 AM]

dantec
Dec 7, 2001, 01:49 AM
Whatever comes up - must come down. Microsoft's good days are over! When Apple's contract with Microsoft is over apple will buy the Mac Office team and create Appleworks 7 - 8 which will seriously kick some butt.

You see the problem is Apple is tooooooo nice. They let MS copy everything & get away with it. It's time Apple plays it at it's own game... :)

I used to be a Wintel user, and every time I turn on my Mac I wondered how I survived in a Wintel world!

It is true that Macs are more expensive, but they are the actual "BMW's" of the market. (Mercedes quality has gotten extremely bad after the merger with Mitsubishsi & Chrysler).

I personally have used Windows XP (my neighbor has it), and find it CRAP! Mac OS 10 kicks it's butt in everyway...

Windows XP now has CD burning... Uh ahhh Apple has had that for over a year know.
WIndows XP has a fancy interface .... OHHHHH Mac OS 10 kicks it on all fronts (who wants a green start menu??)
Xp has tons of over bloated crap features

AND AT LEAST I DON'T HAVE TO WORK ON A BEIGE BOX!

I swear one day Apple will rise from it's 5% market share and take over the rest of the industry. What apple needs to show people that we are no more "an isolated" type of computer. Apple's can now do more than the average PC (even top ends for that matter).

About price... When I bought my rev. D iMac 3 years ago for 2000 sfr... It was extremely cheap (compared to other wintel boxes!). My powermac was expensive (5900 sfr) but it came with a beatifle 17" display. Tell me... Can you build a system with a DVD burner + The best DVD burning software?

No you cant't! Once Apple realizes that if they market people to "see" their great & easy products. The whole world will wither!

Go APPLE go Apple.

P.S. PC's have millions of bugs compared to Mac's. OS 10 whoops 95/98/2000 & Xp in wraps. The only Microsoft OS I have seen with no bugs (as far as I could see) was DOS & Win 3.1! Win 2000 crashes all the time at my school (even the school server crashes every week, at least once). And windows 98 crashes and shutdown if you put it into 32bits of color (i'm not talking about second edittion... The absolute first retail version of 98). How sad is that?

dantec
Dec 7, 2001, 01:58 AM
You actually don't have to train people to use Macs! Heck i moved to macs when I was 9 & now I know linux.

If your talking about programs... most Mac programs are the same on both platform (adobe ones for sure).

So basically you hate the Mac cause you can't make a profit of them... Smart... This is a discussion not on who's making a profit or whatever... This is (at least I am) a discussion about Mac technology vs. Windoze technolglogy!

AmbitiousLemon
Dec 7, 2001, 02:49 AM
im glad this justthefacts character came around, because he illustrates a fact that we have been discussiing but many of us simply dont believe. peecee users are morons... ok i'll be nicer (sorry for the harshness). peecee users are ignorant. but its a whole lot worse than that. many of these ignorant peecee users run around pretending they know somethign about computers and about macs. they arent qualified to use their own computers let alone talk about what macs are.

dantec, you are so right. we all know it. nothing you said is new to any of us, but im certain our justthefacts friends will question much of what you said. further more, there are so many things wrong with justthefacts thinking that we cant even begin to correct... this fellow is so ignorant and so convinced of himself that he will post a page long message advertising his ignorance to a room full of mac users.

how many of you read that and either just started laughing or just started getting angry about each and every thing this guy said? the sudden silience following his post is evidence that we were all shocked at the audacity and ignorance of this self proclaimed wintel fanatic.

m$ is a lot like the american GOP, they spout off lies to a sea of morons and the louder they get the more the ignorant masses believe their lies.

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 07:09 AM
OMG, so now I am a moron.

Ok..lets go with that..it will demonstrate my point just perfectly.

Lets say I AM a moron...completely.

The fact is this.

1. Someone is WRONG, i thought this started over why Mac has a small market share ?
2. It is very possible that pound for pound Mac is a better computer. I am not convinced of that, but I will SURELY agree that it is quite possible.
3. As to your wintel server at school crashing every week, you NEED not go there.
Servers, specifically web servers and programming in C++, VB, ASP, and Oracle is my business. Has been for a LONG time. You CANT...CANT do what you do in a windows web server world on a mac. You can argue linux and unix all day and I will AGREE..but Mac has to basically stay out of that argument. The main reason for choosing asp (and therefore windows tech.) over unix and java based technology is because of compatibility. And..my friend..i know windows servers that never get rebooted.
I would say that either you windows server at school or whatever is either not ran properly or has junk hardware.

I have a home system...four monitors, television, dvd, games, programming stuff, cable internet etc etc..and i go weeks and weeks without a reboot.

4. yes you can burn dvd's on a wintel.
5. Remember...this is about small market share.
6. If i am a moron, and all of us wintel users are morons that is why Wintel's have the huge market share. Because it allows a "moron" like me to become a programmer, make tons of money selling programming services, networks, servers, etc.

Mac can be superior, and they just might be already. But it doesnt matter. There is a LOT MORE to commanding a greater market share. And maybe in a dream world, the BEST product will get the largest market share, but in the REAL world that just does not play out !

From my point of view..i say "who is the moron?"
Who is naive about the reality of the computer industry ?
Who is very unrealistic that "mac will suddenly take over ?

If i was a betting man..i would bet that the Mac is BETTER !
Yes i would.
Of course defining how to define that would be a difficult thing to do..and because of that it is really hard to say one is better. I could NOT do what I do, make what I make, and accomplish the solutions I sell in a mac world. So surely that counts for something in the big picture of better.

But..for the record....when it comes to PERSONAL computing I will concede that in most areas Macs are user friendly, better performing etc etc.
And of course, they are more expensive !

I dont really believe that, if i look at ONE aspect of a computer I do believe it, but then on another aspect I dont. ANd it goes back and forth on many different aspects.
And that is simply reality. And its simply not even relevent !!

Mac can be better, can be superior.
And you know what..even if that is true..and they drop the price..the market share wont go up..or not much at all.
Its a much larger issue.
And i know I am right.
And..well..umm...I am not a moron..but thanks anyway.

Yes..i do not deal with Macs because I cant make money on them. But..thats why my house is paid off, my vehicle is paid for..and at this moment I am sitting on the couch, in my boxers..posting this.
Most days..i lazily get up, because of how successful I have been in the "wintel world."
And whether Mac is superior or NOT, I cant go over to the "mac side" obi one because the MONEY IS NOT THERE !
And my family has to eat, my vehicle needs gas, my boat needs new fishing rods..etc etc.

And until Mac deals with that issue...they will NEVER command a significant amount of market share.

It is pathetic that a computer (mac) that probably is superior in most ways...only has 5%.
It really is pathetic.

[Edited by justthefacts on 12-07-2001 at 08:11 AM]

akuma
Dec 7, 2001, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by justthefacts
Servers, specifically web servers and programming in C++, VB, ASP, and Oracle is my business. Has been for a LONG time. You CANT...CANT do what you do in a windows web server world on a mac. You can argue linux and unix all day and I will AGREE..but Mac has to basically stay out of that argument.

Sadly, my friend, you are wrong on that point. The new Mac OS is Unix based. Therefore, just about anything you can do on a Unix/Linux box, you can do on a mac nowadays. And Unix has been around far longer than MS Windows.

Here's my take on the situation:

Apple's market share is small. Something like 5%. Okay. However, with that measly little 5%, they still manage to get new products out, stock prices are slightly improving, and they even managed to post a profit last quater.

It's possible that apple could maybe get 10 - 15 % of the market share on computers, but would they really want to? I think that they are content with the base that they have. Sun probably has about the same market share (maybe even less) but no one is pushing Irix sun computers on everyone. Why? because they are specialized boxes. Same with a Mac. Graphics/Music/Pre-press people typically use a mac to get theie job done, and make money.

Just because you cannot make money from the resale/repair of macs, doesn't classify it as a bad system. There are probably tons of resellers that make money off the sale of macs. Maybe, had you started sooner in the mac game you could have built up your lifestyle around mac sales, but you didn't, and money isn't necessarily everything.

If apple had a bigger market share than they did now, they would most certainly fall under a more scrupulous eye, and let me tell you, the mac community is probably harder on apple than the wintel community is! We tend to be a very picky lot, just read some posts from this site and you'll get that feeling very fast. :)

I think your narrow views of Macs are flawed in most aspects. However I am not here to convert you or to prove you wrong. You have yor beliefs and I have mine.

As you can see most Mac users are happy with there boxes and we know that they have a small market share, but you know what? That just makes me feel better about my computer. Same way a BMW/Mercedes owner feels about their car. I worked hard to get my macs and I am proud of them. They are extremely dependable. Moreso than the pc's I've had.

Foocha
Dec 7, 2001, 08:33 AM
OK, so maybe you can't do everything on a Mac that you can do on Windows, but that's not much of an arguement for Windows as a secure platform to use on the Internet.

Microsoft have acknowledge that there are serious problems with IIS, at the moment they're busy working on a replacement for IIS, and all Microsoft developers are entirely dependant on their endevours.

The difference with UNIX is that it's open source, which makes it more secure. Patches are reguarly released, and security holes come to light quickly, rather than being kept a secret by MS.

As for ASP v JSP - you CANT... CANT do as much with ASP as you can do with JSP - it's scripting v programming language.

As a server, OS X is a humble beginning, but it's more standards-based than Windows in the sense of being based on Open Source industry standard UNIX, rather than Microsoft's flawed proprietary solutions.

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 09:15 AM
WHO HAS THE FACTS WRONG???

People, go to IBM.com. Look at their new Intellistation Z systems. The have the Dual Itanium 800mHz processors, and their systems are upgradable to 16 gig (yes 16 GIG) of ram. Look for yourself before you slander my facts. They are 15,000 dollars. Before anyone else makes some idiotic reply that I have my facts wrong, go look yourself.

http://commerce.www.ibm.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/CategoryDisplay?cgrfnbr=2072508&smrfnbr=1&cntrfnbr=1&cgmenbr=1&cntry=840&lang=en_US&scrfnbr=73

These are high-end systems, and better than macs. But my point is, for 12,000 less, you can get a nice Dual 800 G4 and work your heart away.

Please, people. Think. This is exactly why people dont like mac users so much. Talk with your brain engaged, and dont automatically think that everyone else is wrong.

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 09:39 AM
agreenster, you didnt mention it was an itanium system in your original post, that is an important fact !

Do more with JSP ? I dont think so !! Way wrong, I program in both ! Jsp limits you to the java family. Asp lets you also go into vb, java, c++, C etc. ASp is more open because of COM which JSP doesnt support.

Mac server running unix ? Hmm..i didnt know that but its exactly what I was proposing. They let ANOTHER OS run on their system. THe mac OS will not serve as a REAL business solution for the masses.

Where does Mac stand on POS (Point of Sale), I have never heard of a Mac POS system and they are HUGE industry.

And i see now we are back the mercedes, BMW, I know most people dont have them and I like that argument.

This all started about Market Share. And now you are all back to being proud mercedes owners. Thats all well and good..but like mercedes, Mac has a small market share. And actually....Win2k pound for pound is the FASTEST thing for surfing the net..that has been proven hands down. Microsoft greatly changed the TCP/IP stack.

I do agree that Mac users are hard on macs. Many people in this forum have said that for LESS money they can buy a Wintel that WHIPS their mac in everyway. Hmmmmm does that mean wintel is better ? Perhaps !

And finally...it is said, as I said, Mac's are SPECIALIZED systems. Which means small market share.


As for Mac/Unix servers. The ever so dependable specialized Unix ( and I say that sincerely !) has been running on Intels for years without issue..SO WHY pay more to run it on a mac ? You would have to be stupid. I hope Mac doesnt think they are going to sell a lot of those.
What marketing idiot came up with that idea ?

And Mr. Greenster, no company DESERVES more market share. You get what you get. There are mathmatically based reasons for the low apple market share. Until/unless those reasons are addressed, it will not change. And how do you say Microsoft will take over the entire consumer market and you will lose apple ? You are not comparing apples to apples. It is a lot more than Microsoft.....so get your facts straight ! And....as your own Mac forum users have attested in other post...it doesnt take a 15,000.00 computer to beat a mac. It takes much less than that. Look around the forum and you will see what I mean.

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 09:46 AM
You all ignore one simple fact. From POS systems, to Programming to Surfing and hodge podge networking multiple OS's Windows is very open, friendly, and attempts to OFFER IT ALL. Do they deliver on that ? Not completely but they come pretty close. That is why they have BUGS, because they try to offer EVERYTHING.

Of course you wont have hardware conflicts with a mac. Jeez Mac's have such limited options for hardware anyway. Dont you know that by opening things up on the Mac like the wintels that more hardware problems will come with it ? It is simple math. If you can only choose between 2 tv tuners for mac, it stands to chance that your chances of conflict are greatly reduced than if you had a wintel and had literally hundreds of viable solutions.
Owning wintel's gives the USEr the options, sure you can configure it to mess all up. But...when wintel users want something we dont have to wait for microsoft or Dell, Gateway to offer it. There are millions of companies offering software and hardware for the systems. Thats the beauty of it. Its all OPEN ! not a monopoly. Everyone has a choice. Much the same way that we all have a choice between the Mac, Wintel, and others. And..umm...well..in case you havent noticed..these Billions of people choose wintels. But I guess you few mac users (maybe 50 million at best ?) know better huh ?

Falleron
Dec 7, 2001, 09:46 AM
If you are using programs like Photoshop I think that you will all find that the Mac is FASTER than any pc! Just wait for the speed bumped G4's in january + G5's when they come out. (I use both mac's + pc's)

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 09:49 AM
Macs are better at graphics and video editing. But if you give me the money you spend on a MAC, I can put up a good fight and possibly win a performance test with a custom Wintel. In fact..more than a few Mac Users have said exactly that in this forum. Look around and read..you will see !

Falleron
Dec 7, 2001, 09:55 AM
Maybe a good fight (with current machines)! I think the mac would still just edge out the pc. However, the macs are due for some major changes in the months to come which should set the record straight.

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 09:58 AM
Ok....wait a minute...can we only deal with reality..as in TODAYS current technology.

This is like saying..well its a fair fight now..but im going to train and beat you up someday !?

Mac, Wintels...its all progressing.

Although..mac is a monopoly in the Mac world..and that hurts you all..you just dont realize it ! If you want a mac..you got ONE PLACE to get it manufactured from.

If I want a wintel..i have lots of options including building my own.

So whose so OPEN..and whos not ?
Sure...if i want the Win part of Wintel ...i got microsoft..but is that their fault ? Their OS is the most GUI based, userfriendly one on the market today. ANd ive used macs, unix, linux even with the GUI it doesnt compare.

Some of microsoft's practices have been debated as monopolistic, but NOTHING has ever been CLEARLY monopolistic..hence the reason they are not being severaly penalized. They are definatly guilty of being schrewd in R&D, marketing, strategy, and execution.

I applaud them for that.



LEts be real here !

Falleron
Dec 7, 2001, 09:59 AM
It is true that Apple has lost some performace compared to the pc's over recent months because of Motorola not being able to deliver what they promised!

The last update to the powermacs was only ugraded to 867Mhz. However, they were supposed to be 1Ghz machines but because of a scalability problem with the G4 it was not possible!

Falleron
Dec 7, 2001, 10:02 AM
You have to be joking!!! XP is like a fisher price set!!! It forces you do give personal details + also makes you re-register the product ever-so-often along with other problems.

It is a fact that XP now requires more mouse clicks to do general operations than say on ME or the Mac!

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 10:03 AM
Let me be clear on this.
From what I have seen of Macs..they are wonderful. The only complaints I hear a lot are:
1. Price
2. Lack of choices for hardware/peripherals/software.


However...if you read the FIRST post in this thread it was about MARKET SHARE.

And...if they want to change that..its not a mac vs. wintel issue.

Its much greater than that.

They are ignoring so much of the computer market.
They choose to be specialized. Clearly by their actions that is true. Or they just do not know what they are doing...and that is possible.

akuma
Dec 7, 2001, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by justthefacts
Do more with JSP ? I dont think so !! Way wrong, I program in both ! Jsp limits you to the java family. Asp lets you also go into vb, java, c++, C etc. ASp is more open because of COM which JSP doesnt support.

This is far beyond my computer knowledge so someone else (i'm sure) will reply to it.

Mac server running unix ? Hmm..i didnt know that but its exactly what I was proposing. They let ANOTHER OS run on their system.

Mac OS is a Unix based system. It is apple's way of putting a proven stable platform (Unix) into a friendly, easy to use, operating system (mac OS). Power hungry Unix users can drop into the terminal and bang away command lines to their hearts content. Or day-to-day Mac OS users can happily never touch the terminal and still get work done.

Where does Mac stand on POS (Point of Sale), I have never heard of a Mac POS system and they are HUGE industry.

From what I've heard all Apple stores use Mac as the POS system. Here's a link to a Mac point of sale page http://web2.iadfw.net/larry/pos.html (31 different vendors of Mac POS system/software)
But a macintosh will never be a a business "solution" unless that business is film/video/music/press/education etc.

is all started about Market Share. And now you are all back to being proud mercedes owners. Thats all well and and good..but like mercedes, Mac has a small market share.

We've established that, see my previous post.

actually....Win2k pound for pound is the FASTEST thing for surfing the net..that has been proven hands down.

Give me proof, please.

As for Mac/Unix servers. The ever so dependable specialized Unix ( and I say that sincerely !) has been running on Intels for years without issue..SO WHY pay more to run it on a mac ?

You don't have to pay more. Factor in all the costs and the mac is about the same as any wintel box.

You seem to be degrading into mac bashing. What macintosh systems have you used?

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 10:05 AM
XP ??? Did I ever mention XP ?

I work on win2k...and oNLY win2k.

XP is another issue altogether.

I know the registration requirements are because Microsoft loses millions if not billions on the fact that their software is passed around from user to user without being paid for.
you cant blame them for that.

Most of the best third party software..i mean the stuff that cost 10,000 plus...requires similiar things.

Falleron
Dec 7, 2001, 10:06 AM
OK, we shall agree to dis-agree. Back to the topic then.

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 10:22 AM
Akuma:
actually....Win2k pound for pound is the FASTEST thing for surfing the net..that has been proven hands down.

Give me proof, please.

Sorry I do not have it. I assumed that was common knowledge with those in the forum. Microsoft increased the internet speeds on win2k at about 45%. I ran multiple test on the same systems, same connection, same site to verify that when Win2k came out.

My own cousin has a wintel celeron dual cpu, and several macs. he even says suring on that celeron under win2k is about twice as fast on the bandwidth meter test. Which of course are not EXACXT science, but serve well as benchmarks if you run hundreds of test..which we both have.

Foocha
Dec 7, 2001, 10:37 AM
I agree with some of your points justthefacts. I need to look in to what you're saying about ASP - sounds interesting.

In particular, I agree that it doesn't make sense to pay Apple prices for hardware just to run Linux on it, when you get much more bang for your buck with Intel/AMD boxes.

OS X is Unix based, and this does offer lots of interesting avenues for the Mac platform that did not previously exist - but agreed, right now that's just speculation.

The main point you make that I would take issue with is that Windows is an open platform. It may be a popular platform, but it is certainly not open, and this has some disadvantages in terms of security on the Internet (I would agree that you can't beat W2K for a corporate intranet but I wouldn't let it loose on the Internet).

Check out this link on the Regiser...

The Register: Ditch Microsoft IIS now, says Gartner
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/21853.html

Foocha
Dec 7, 2001, 10:42 AM
I have to admit that IE5.5 on W2K offers a much faster surfing experience that IE 5.1 on OS X, although I put this down to 5.1's HTML rendering engine rather than the plumbing - I think FreeBSD (on which OS X is based) is more than a match for W2K in terms of TCP/IP implimentations.

akuma
Dec 7, 2001, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by justthefacts
Akuma:
actually....Win2k pound for pound is the FASTEST thing for surfing the net..that has been proven hands down.

Give me proof, please.

Sorry I do not have it. I assumed that was common knowledge with those in the forum. Microsoft increased the internet speeds on win2k at about 45%. I ran multiple test on the same systems, same connection, same site to verify that when Win2k came out.

My own cousin has a wintel celeron dual cpu, and several macs. he even says suring on that celeron under win2k is about twice as fast on the bandwidth meter test. Which of course are not EXACXT science, but serve well as benchmarks if you run hundreds of test..which we both have.


I don't think this point is even provable. I can sit here and say that this Win 98 box I'm using will cruise the web faster than my win ME box right beside it. But it will be a moot point. What if the server that I am accessing just happens to be hit with a ton of traffic right before I load their site on my ME box. Well then the 98 box will load faster. But wait, my road runner cable modem suddenly gets spammed by a mass email, well then both boxes are gonna be slow.

You cannot possibly compare internet speeds, there are just too many variables. CPU bottlenecks, ISP bandwith, net traffic, etc etc. Even if it was possible to isolate all variables it wouldn't be a "true" test of speed, since it wasn't real world.

My realworld tests show to me that my 400mhz g3 is faster on the net, than any of my PC boxes (2 AMD 900mhz and a P3 466) but all are plenty fast for me and most end users (not us) would barely notice the difference, if they did at all.

I'll give you the fact that WIn200 is stable. I have a win2000 box that has been on three months w/o one problem (it's a database server) My only beef was the upgrade from 98 to 2000. 8 reboots! I mean come on is that absolutely necessary. I could understand maybe 3, (1) to rewrite the file system (2) to transfer old data (3) to get up and running. But 8 restarts, thats uneeded.

I have a mac at home that has been running for 3 months also, and it gets more of a workout than that win2000 box everyday (net router, print server, etc.) so stability is about the same. Those are just my tests so take them how you may.

Foocha
Dec 7, 2001, 10:45 AM
You can compare speeds of Web browsing if you have a Mac & PC client on the same subnetwork as your HTTP server.

A Mac will not win in this test, sadly!

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 11:19 AM
Hey Justhefacts-

Totally agreeing with you here- It doesnt take a 15,000 dollar machine to whip a mac. Heck, a 1,500 dollar PC can, in some cases, whip a mac. But that wasnt my point- My original point was that a Mac is not some super computer, and it isnt the best around, as many people elude to. What I am saying is that Apple is a good computer company, who make great systems, especially their higher end G4's. And you are right, no company deserves market share. I just feel that they have made some marketing mistakes, but that shouldnt reflect on the quality of their product. Price? maybe. My point is that Im disgusted that Apple doesnt do something more to enhance their presence (more!) in the hardware market, because they make really nice machines, that many people would (I think) switch to if they knew some of the benefits of these systems.

And about the really expensive Intellistation, I was just trying to point out that many, many loyal Apple users immediately claim truths, when really they have nothing to base it on. Lets be honest, there are good companies and good hardware other than Apple. Its just that we prefer Apple, and we wish they had more of a presence both in the consumer market, and with the respect of other PC users.

Oh, and whoever I gave a thumbs down to--it was about your Star Wars comment, not about you. Sorry bud.

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 11:28 AM
1. I agree with Foocha, that a mac will not win that test. Testing is possible if you do ENOUGH test, using all of the same other variables. And in the case of the win 2k vs. 98 which is what we did first..the results were so clearly better on the win2k that it was obvious. Then when I read what I did about what microsoft did with win2k it all made sense.

I think all systems can be stable or not stable..it all depends on the other variables.

Also Foocha, I program primarily in ASP. I love being able to call vb, C++ etc etc from my code. Jsp just doesnt allow it. They are both viable solutions. As for dumping IIS, I do not agree. Those problems came from NEtwork admins that didnt set up the systems right primarily.

My customers dont have any problems.
The one DOWNSIDE to how open the microsoft world is to anyone, is that almost anyone can start selling and implementing the technology..and that..brings LOTS of problems for many companies. There again, its just just so much the technology at fault..but the implementation.
And that is also why microsoft systems get attacked more.
1. There are more of them( I dont mean just web servers, IIS web servers are the minority)
2. The entire technology is easier to learn, attack and exploit. Microsoft goes to great lengths to make the OS that way.

I will never argue that IIS is the best web server solution, but it is a good one IF You know how to use it.

Truth be told...unix and linux are not the "locked up tight" boxes they appear to be.

Many times I have considered staying in PHP and JSP. But asp is hot..and easy..and customers want it because of the low cost. But if you use it..you have to know what you are doing, and how to protect the NT/Win2k server it sits on. Actually..that asp side of it is TIGHT ! Its the IIS part that has issues.
Quite simply..those servers that were infected so bad with code red and the like werent being watched and updated regularly. I run firewall software, hardware, and virus software on all nt/win2k servers and have no issues. Total cost for all of that is less than 200 dollars. cheap, easy fix that bypasses and hides microsoft security holes.

Microsoft is surely guilty of not being perfect.

Their attitude is to offer a solution for everything, and promise people and update if a problem is found. Although for obvious reasons there are problems with that. The fact is from a business standpoint..its very smart on their part.

Even oracle has an NT version,and it runs very well. VERY WELL ! And at a fraction of the cost of SQL 2k.

I would like to see Mac attempt what Microsoft has..and see if they can accomplish perfection.

Windows is an open TECHNOLOGY. In that you and I can make hardware for it easily, software easily, and even build wintel systems and sell them. That is what I mean by OPEN !
Even if they LOST IIS, microsoft will go on...in almost every business ....everyday.
It is just a fact.
And the fact is they see the "big picture" not the small slice of the industry that mac deals with.

I love competition. I wish Mac would open their eyes, their platform and their systems. Let the resellers get involved and push the technology to a whole new level of market share for mac. I would LOVE THAT !!

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by agreenster
Hey Justhefacts-

Totally agreeing with you here- It doesnt take a 15,000 dollar machine to whip a mac. Heck, a 1,500 dollar PC can, in some cases, whip a mac. But that wasnt my point- My original point was that a Mac is not some super computer, and it isnt the best around, as many people elude to. What I am saying is that Apple is a good computer company, who make great systems, especially their higher end G4's. And you are right, no company deserves market share. I just feel that they have made some marketing mistakes, but that shouldnt reflect on the quality of their product. Price? maybe. My point is that Im disgusted that Apple doesnt do something more to enhance their presence (more!) in the hardware market, because they make really nice machines, that many people would (I think) switch to if they knew some of the benefits of these systems.

I could not agree with you more on this point. All machines are good in their own way, for their own reasons. From what I have seen of macs..i think they rock ! But I cant use them for a lot of things..and in a lot of circumstances. I think 'as they sit right now' macs cannot achieve a much higher market share. The people at mac need to model their systems towards the mainstream uses. But then would you all love them as you do if they did ? For example I went to apple.com and first thing I see is Graphics programs...on the first page. No wonder most people think..and i think because its TRUE..that macs are basically great for graphics and video.

And about the really expensive Intellistation, I was just trying to point out that many, many loyal Apple users immediately claim truths, when really they have nothing to base it on. Lets be honest, there are good companies and good hardware other than Apple. Its just that we prefer Apple, and we wish they had more of a presence both in the consumer market, and with the respect of other PC users.

Complete agreement here ! And i would say it goes both ways..but I dont think wintel users go around claiming superiority. In fact most wintel users know nothing of macs.


Oh, and whoever I gave a thumbs down to--it was about your Star Wars comment, not about you. Sorry bud.

[Edited by justthefacts on 12-07-2001 at 12:38 PM]

jefhatfield
Dec 7, 2001, 11:41 AM
justthefacts,

if you look back on this thread, we mac people are talking about mac stand alones vs. pc stand alones, not networking or POS

i am a pc network engineer and know that the pc world has that market hands down with NT and windows 2000 and i am sure windows xp will take over that market since the microsoft certified professional program is considering decertifying all the NT and windows 2000 engineers (june 2002 possibly is what the networking forums say) in favor of an all windows xp force of techs by the end of 2002

but mac users here never said anything about wanting to take over the server world or the POS world...hey, the pc companies could have it

macs dominate the world for artists and apple could increase share on stand alone computers in the home and business

justthefacts, we are both in the pc business...if you were apple, would you want to jump into the maze of the POS market or the disappointing world of networking with competing protocols, wireless, fiber optic, etc?

while apple has lost confidence with investors, they still didn't fall as hard as novell, cisco, nortel, and the networking world in general...where are those networked homes and networked mom and pop businesses?...i am from the frickin silicon valley and they ain't here...who knows, maybe the swamps of louisiana has all the new networking technology and san jose is behind

as for your comments that micrsoft is where it is because of good business

mostly wrong.

microsoft got where they did by cheating and stealing...what do you think the government is doing going after them then? XP steals from os x, word steals from wordperfect, NT steals from novell netware, ie killed netscape with offering ie for free, and microsoft may try questionable practices going after the gaming market and pda market...ok, maybe saying steals from is too harsh but microsoft was a little too liberal in their interpretation of borrowing ideas and that is why a lot of companies got the government after microsoft

apple is low in the market share not because of POS and networking, but because they are bad at business but at least they are not being hounded by the government for monopolistic practices

unfortunately i have to make my living fixing pcs and pc networks but macs simply do not have as many issues and there are not as many of them and mac techs i know have to have a second job because the pcs dominate the landscape...but not because they are better

you do bring up points which are good about the pc and many mac users don't know what they are talking about when they flame you on this forum...mac users, i am sure you noticed, do not like to defend their arguments with solid facts most of the time but at least we are not cheaters and rip off artists like bill gates and microsoft in general

setting facts straight about pc vs mac hardware is why i am here, being a pc tech and a mac user ... but don't ask me about cars, latest rock bands, fashion, or latest ps2 games...in those topics and most others, i don't know jacksh@@ and i will be the first to admit it ;-)

anyway, welcome to this forum and i hope some of your input will give the mac community the pc side of the argument

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 11:42 AM
I agree. (note my original post) Wintel users really know nothing about Macs. They sometimes dont even realize that a Macintosh is manufactured by Apple. Yikes!

I think its unfortunate that people are closed minded, because they are missing out.

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 11:58 AM
Jefhatfield....WOW..talk about putting things in perspective.

Although...whether Cisco, nortel etc fall..it doesnt affect me. I get paid by the hour..and I sell whatever is the best solution at the time. life goes on for me as a reseller.

Although I do more programming than anything.

I admit microsoft has not be as moral and ethical as they should be. And maybe they have actually "stolen" concepts and ideas. But its all busines for microsoft, the money they have made..minus legal fees, fines, penalties etc..still leaves them with a nice profit.
Heck..they get free marketing and advertising from their legal troubles..if you really think about it.

I will agree that Mac and mac users are not like microsoft and gates. But you should agree I am neither of those two entities (gates or microsoft). I only got into this for the market share issues..and somehow got into mac vs. pc.

The world could not survive with just macs. The wintels and technologies being used on them are needed.

I agree..that home users could use macs..and be happy.
Happy until they want to take the documents from work HOME to work on. Or vica versa. Or until they easily want to share files with their neighbors. There are a lot of compatiblity issues with all of that. So its not such an easy choice to go to "macs at home." And that is what stops many people I am sure. Then to convince them to pay more for their system. And...to accept that the software at Best Buy generally wont apply for them.

I have considered buying a mac at home..but havent.

My wife is a graphic design student...but she works on my dual monitored dual cpu'd wintel..and is perfectly happy. And she knows she can send word documents to almost anyone, same with excel...all because most people have them.

What would she do if she had a mac ?
I really dont know..but I am sure one of you will tell me how easy it is LOL.

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by agreenster
I agree. (note my original post) Wintel users really know nothing about Macs. They sometimes dont even realize that a Macintosh is manufactured by Apple. Yikes!

I think its unfortunate that people are closed minded, because they are missing out.

Wait a minute...i have a problem with that.

What is it about a person not knowing about Mac that makes them "close minded?"

If mac wants to sell more systems..they need to "open the minds" as you would say. Most people wont go investigate ALL OF THE OPTIONS, much in the same way you wouldnt with anything else you buy. In a dream world we could all read consumer reports on every product we buy..etc etc..but in reality we are all influenced by advertising, word of mouth..etc etc.

Heck..just like comcast cable gives a consumer a free month if you sign up a friend...Mac should give you all a rebate for pushing their systems. You get a free this or that..or a gift certificate to use at http://www.macworld.com or something.

But either way..if you dont know about macs..you are not ness. "closed minded."

jefhatfield
Dec 7, 2001, 12:09 PM
the world did just fine with mostly only apple based machines from 1975 to 1981 (approx)

today the world would be happier if apple increased their share and i bet if you bought your wife an imac or G4 she would like it very much, in time though once whe learns her way around os x and stuff

when she goes out into the graphic design world, my wife also is a graphic designer, she will come in contact with macs more likely than pcs

pcs get the graphics jobs done, but macs do it slightly faster and with more flair

if you can add it to your christmas list, give your wife a mac

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 12:10 PM
No--closed minded is more like it.

See what happens if you ever suggest a mac solution to someone's computer needs. They will wave their arms and say, "Nope--nope nope. Not Apple. Anything but that." Just ask any CompUSA employee. People wont even try to investigate Apple options, and where I come from, thats called closed-minded.

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 12:14 PM
jef..actually I have tried to...buy her one. More so because i want one to play with. but she doesnt want it.
I would have to have the know how to convince her of the benefits..but she has no problems accomplishing her task on the Wintel...hence she feels no need to switch. And she does other things on the wintel she would have to give up, or change. We both love Age of Empires, which i think is on the mac..but we also love Star Wars Galatic Battleground which I dont think is.

But..I have already talked to my cousin steve today...and told him I am going to buy one or two.

I would like to have a workstation and a server just to play with and see what it is all about.

So if it was 25 million macs..soon it will be +2.

Then I will come back and talk MORE intelligently about what you can and cant do on a mac.

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 12:14 PM
Oh, and one more thing. Transfering files from Mac to PC is no prob. Any mac file (MS Word, Illustrator, Photoshop, even Maya files, OBJ) will transfer to its corresponding PC app without a hitch. I could send you a mac MS Word '.doc' right now, and you could open it with your PC version of Word. I do it all the time.

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by agreenster
No--closed minded is more like it.

See what happens if you ever suggest a mac solution to someone's computer needs. They will wave their arms and say, "Nope--nope nope. Not Apple. Anything but that." Just ask any CompUSA employee. People wont even try to investigate Apple options, and where I come from, thats called closed-minded.

Sorry greenster..i fault apple for that..not the consumer !

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 12:18 PM
To a certain extent, I do as well. But people still have minds of their own, and should investigate options just like if they were buying a car. But then again, there are still people who will only buy a chevy, only vote republican or democrat, and sue a cigarette company for giving them cancer.

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by agreenster
Oh, and one more thing. Transfering files from Mac to PC is no prob. Any mac file (MS Word, Illustrator, Photoshop, even Maya files, OBJ) will transfer to its corresponding PC app without a hitch. I could send you a mac MS Word '.doc' right now, and you could open it with your PC version of Word. I do it all the time.

Then a mac in my house I will buy.

But..just for the record. I already figured that was the case..and I know macs are GREAT systems.
And just because I buy one or two..doesnt mean I will change my mind about the market share issues.

I am sure..like every peice of technology I own. I will love a mac..as i do my wintels.

For example.

Imagine...4 21" monitors....four SEPERATE resolutions. Televesion window that can be dragged in any or all screens...any size. Same with DVD. Great Audio..surround sound. Wireless trackball mouse..keyboard. All on mirrored drives. Two 40 gig mirrored sets. hot swap bays. All ide so it runs warm..not HOT.

Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds running on one window. Tv on another. Email/internet on another....and one is just free of windows.

and..it almost seems to accomplish the task BEFORE you actually tell it to !

jefhatfield
Dec 7, 2001, 12:23 PM
i know apple changed their name from apple computer to just "apple"

apple solutions will come to mean a lot more in the future...gaming, mp3 players, pdas, cell phones, maybe networking, and who knows...personal transportation vehicles

apple sunk in many millions in segway for those you you who don't know and that is very exciting...sorry i missed the southpark cartoon!

apple could one day be like sony making and selling records, tv sets, radios, and movies...sony is steve job's role model like he has mentioned many times in the past four years

imagine an apple metreon complex with pixar movies showing and scooting around in apple scooters!

i would be the first in line for any of those products if apple made or supported them and i would even buy apple apples once the environmentalists tear down silicon valley and make it a bunch of apple orchards once again

go apple inc!

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 12:27 PM
Well i LOVE sony products...so I share his choice of role models. I love sony, the company, the products etc.
My uncle has a sony shop...but i would pay full price for their products ! But..unlike Apple...they have a handle on the marketing.

Apple needs to open the close minds that greenstr says are out there. I still disagree with him, but either way if Apple doesnt open the minds..no one will open enough of them to matter.

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 12:33 PM
I think you, JusttheFacts, are one of a few PC people who do consider Apple a viable consideration when purchasing computers. But you arent also the typical consumer. You have a passion for electronics, computers, etc. You buy hard just to play around with it, and have many computers in their home. But they typical consumer has one computer. (laptop or desktop) And yes, 95 percent of the people I know wouldnt even consider an Apple, either because it never even crosses their mind, or they think its weird.

Out of a consumer behavior class my fiance is in, one person knew what an Apple computer was (my fiance), and the prevalent question was (from the other 39 or so people) "Does it run windows?" and "Arent they really slow?" I wish I could say that people werent closed-minded, but they simply are. No one knows, and no one wants to know.

jefhatfield
Dec 7, 2001, 12:36 PM
right after i saw a sony metreon store, i saw the first apple store on apple.com site

steve is taking the metreon layout into his own store and is taking good marketing ideas from watching sony

in no time, there will be a starbucks and cool cafes in an apple store as well as other types of mechandise...if all goes well in the next few years

the metreon superstore idea has been in japan since the 70s and when i visited tokyo as a kid, there were many theme stores and now the USA is catching up with apple in the lead

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by agreenster
I think you, JusttheFacts, are one of a few PC people who do consider Apple a viable consideration when purchasing computers. But you arent also the typical consumer. You have a passion for electronics, computers, etc. You buy hard just to play around with it, and have many computers in their home. But they typical consumer has one computer. (laptop or desktop) And yes, 95 percent of the people I know wouldnt even consider an Apple, either because it never even crosses their mind, or they think its weird.

Out of a consumer behavior class my fiance is in, one person knew what an Apple computer was (my fiance), and the prevalent question was (from the other 39 or so people) "Does it run windows?" and "Arent they really slow?" I wish I could say that people werent closed-minded, but they simply are. No one knows, and no one wants to know.

Hmmm..perhaps you are correct. And yes you are right about my passion for electronics. I have enough computer stuff to run a few mom and pop shops, but that is my business so it makes sense.
As to no one knowing....well...that is not closed minded.

Much like the FIRST cd writer that come out..no one knew...marketing kicked in...people found out...people bought.

Apple needs to approach the market like they were a new product..then maybe at the end of the ads make some mention of their history.

But..either way..its all in apples lap..court..whatever. The hand is theirs to play.

jefhatfield
Dec 7, 2001, 12:44 PM
as you will notice, consumer-wise that is, more than half of all americans do not own a computer (2000 census)

more than half...and that is just america we are talking about

it is called the "digital divide" (newt gingrich, former speaker of of house of repesentatives, USA)

and if your fiancee is a business major, she will not come in contact with many macs but if she was a graphic design major, other students would say about pcs:

aren't they strange?

aren't they slow?

etc.

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 12:46 PM
Agreed. I think we are all kinda saying the same thing. --Apple's marketing, despite how cool, sucks.

Hey, its CA fever, baby. If it looks cool, then its cool. But they need to realize that cool doesnt always sell. Just like someone mentioned earlier, the Delorean was a sweet car, but didnt make it because 'cool' wasnt enough to keep it on the lots. Apple needs to realize that they can make great stuff, and make cool commercials, but their marketing doesnt work. They should advertise the hell out of their products, just like they advertised the hell out of Monsters Inc. (another Steve Jobs project, well-sort of) Dont just sell "cool" but sell, "hey, these things work easier than PC's, do the same things your PC's do with the same programs, but in a cool, faster way." And yes, keep the Apple stores coming! I hope they do the trick. They ought expand into the midwest more. We have three Best Buy's, two Circuit Cities, and more PC stores I can count in my city, but no Apple store. Hell, even WalMart carries all PC stuff.

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 12:52 PM
Thats just the problem. Business majors dont know much about Apple, which is understandable. But now, our computer art lab (same school) has half PC's, half Macs, and half SGI's (UNIX/3D animation). You'd better believe that ALL the art students have used both, and respect both. But the business majors only know one world. PC's. Closed-minded or not, (lets leave that arguement alone--for now) they just dont know what they are!?! There used to be a true divide (50-50) between art and business majors in regards to PC and Apple usage. Now, its more like 75-25.

jefhatfield
Dec 7, 2001, 12:52 PM
hey, what do you expect from a california company?

we are proud to be trendy and cool and unpractical flakes

but i gotta leave this forum now so i could talk to my plants and balance my karmas before my squeaky charlie meeting starts before the next solstice and the planets line up with my full moon showing

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 12:53 PM
Hey, Im not knocking Cali. Lord knows thats right where Im moving to pursue 3D animation work. Im only talking in regards to making money through advertising.

jefhatfield
Dec 7, 2001, 01:21 PM
if it's advetising you want in califonia, then it is los angeles but if you want to actually get paid doing it, go to new york

but if your animation is related to the movies, there is also los angeles and there was a lot of work from george lucas and ilm in northern california before he moved most of that work to soho, london from marin

if your animation is related to gaming, i have no idea where those products are made

otherwise i think you will love califrnia

ps - foocha, if you're listening, congrats on 100!

[Edited by jefhatfield on 12-07-2001 at 02:33 PM]

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 01:25 PM
I didnt mean I wanted to work in advertising. I meant that they make really great TV Ads that are pleasing to the eye, but less effective in regards to making sales. I could be off here, but I partially blame Apple for their lack of sales. The other half is people's complacency with their PC's.

Foocha
Dec 7, 2001, 01:39 PM
Try selling bacon in Israel, or mini skirts in Afghanistan.

Not very easy.

OK, now imagine trying to convince people to buy a PC with a non-standard operating system, expect them to pay more for the privilege and be happy about it.

I'd say Apple's marketing is nothing short of miraculous, and as a marketing professional, I find them insiprational.

Foocha
Dec 7, 2001, 01:42 PM
Thanks for the congrats Jef :)

jefhatfield
Dec 7, 2001, 01:46 PM
in the rural city where i live south of san jose, the marketing guys have been so effective in marketing bacon that i wish many of the girls who wore miniskirts would refrain

i will listen to you more now that you are a senior member which means you are probably on the dole...just kiddin...jeez

justthefacts
Dec 7, 2001, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Foocha
Try selling bacon in Israel, or mini skirts in Afghanistan.

Not very easy.

No doubt about that !

OK, now imagine trying to convince people to buy a PC with a non-standard operating system, expect them to pay more for the privilege and be happy about it.

I think you are stretching it here. I dont know for sure, but would love to see concrete numbers on what people do with their macs. How many use them just by choice, and how many use them because they are in the graphics and video industry or whatnot.

I'd say Apple's marketing is nothing short of miraculous, and as a marketing professional, I find them insiprational.
Well..some of us are inspired by...less....no not the right word....inspired by different things...or see it from another angle. I fault Mac, can criticize them. I see the glass as 95% empty..and not 5% full.

agreenster
Dec 7, 2001, 01:56 PM
Yeah, San Fran is where all the biggies are. Lucas, Dreamworks, Pixar, and even smaller, but notable studios like Tippett.

I just wish it was warmer there.
MMMMMM. Bacon.