I am giving you an envelope containing evidence that God does not exist...

[Prof.]

This evidence will be enough to make the entire human race believe that there really is no God or higher power. And when you die, nothing happens, you just die. Everything we read in our religious texts was all one big lie. No God, no Satan, no heaven, no Hell.

So what do you do? Do you keep the information to yourself and burn the envelope OR do you share your findings with all of man-kind?

Your choice.

[chrmjenkins]

If it were possible to prove a negative and this letter held conclusive evidence, the world would deserve to know regardless of my own personal convictions prior to reading it.

By the way, this exact mentality is why religions spread rather than being a statically sized entity.

[xUKHCx]

Sell it to the highest bidder (after having taken a few copies in case a religious group was the highest bidder).

[bartelby]

Sell it to the highest bidder (after having taken a few copies in case a religious group was the highest bidder).

Brilliant idea!
:)

[Peterkro]

Presumably it would be a empty envelope?

[xUKHCx]

Brilliant idea!
:)

I'll full of them. :D


What if the evidence proved that a god/gods/goddess/whatever did exist beyond any doubt?

Personally I would proclaim myself to be the next son of god and provide the proof.

Either way I am rich :D

[EricNau]

If it were possible to prove a negative. . .
And there's the problem exactly: a negative cannot be proven.

In science, evidence is collected in support of a hypothesis; the evidence will either prove it as accurate, or the absence of supportive evidence will not meet the burden of proof and the hypothesis will be thought false.

[themoonisdown09]

I would burn it and not tell anybody. I don't want to be caught with that kind of evidence because I would most definitely be put on some kind of hit list.

[bartelby]

I would burn it and not tell anybody. I don't want to be caught with that kind of evidence because I would most definitely be put on some kind of hit list.

That's why you'd share it, so they'd have to off everyone...

[skunk]

It wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference. People believe what they want to believe. QED.

[chrmjenkins]

It wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference. People believe what they want to believe. QED.

Pss-shaw. We're preemptively agreeing to impossible scenarios and you can't even play along?

[No1451]

It wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference. People believe what they want to believe. QED.

Need to agree with you on this. Besides, if people want to believe there is no harm in letting them keep going with their lives. If someone wants to be told that they have a purpose and that they MATTER, who am I to take that away from them?

I wouldn't burn it or share it, I would probably stick it somewhere in my house and lose it.

[SpaceMagic]

I would keep it and not tell anyone. I believe, if nothing else, religion provides hope. And a world without hope of better things is quite depressing. Perhaps not if lead a privileged life, but if your life is pretty bad or your whole family dies in an Earthquake... well. You need hope.

[mactastic]

Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer proves conclusively that there is no God to Ned Flanders. ;)

Of course you share it! Get all the information out there and let the chips fall where they may. It's almost never acceptable to withhold information from anyone.

[Eanair]

I would share the information with the world.

What happens after, that's another thing. :)

[ceezy3000]

This evidence will be enough to make the entire human race believe that there really is no God or higher power. And when you die, nothing happens, you just die. Everything we read in our religious texts was all one big lie. No God, no Satan, no heaven, no Hell.

So what do you do? Do you keep the information to yourself and burn the envelope OR do you share your findings with all of man-kind?

Your choice.
why? do u have evidence that god doesnt exist?

[Iscariot]

We already have the evidence.

[Sun Baked]

3. Consider it spam, junk mail, or the ravings of a lunatic and toss it in the can depending on what is printed on the outside.

Edit: First two spam and junk mail are self-explanatory, and I really hate the guys on the street handing out religious info -- they all seem like nuts to me.

[Rt&Dzine]

It wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference. People believe what they want to believe. QED.

I generally agree with ^^^. It might affect a few, but most people believe what best suits their agenda ... some people don't believe in evolution, some people deny the holocaust, etc.

[tMac85]

i can see where this thread is going to go.... it soon wont be about an envelope


but i would burn it. your just gonna get shot.

faith is big to some people. it keeps a lot of people going, wether there is something at the end there or not.

We already have the evidence.

nice. realllly classy haha

[leekohler]

It wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference. People believe what they want to believe. QED.

Exactly- and certain people of "faith" won't believe evidence when it's staring them in the face. They'd ignore the envelope, burn it and then have you killed.

[freeny]

God believers will just say the evidence is the work of the devil.

[yetanotherdave]

I assume you mean proof, not evidence.

I'd share it, what's the worst that could happen, it's not like I could go to hell for it.
Then I'd rape and pillage as that's what us godless heathens do after all. Or, we could all welcome in a new age of science, exploration acceptance and enlightenment, as we are no longer held back by superstition and petty squabbling over what colour hat to wear.

[skunk]

Then I'd rape and pillage as that's what us godless heathens do after all. Or, we could all welcome in a new age of science, exploration acceptance and enlightenment, as we are no longer held back by superstition and petty squabbling over what colour hat to wear.Atheists can be very picky about their hats.

[chrmjenkins]

I assume you mean proof, not evidence.

I'd share it, what's the worst that could happen, it's not like I could go to hell for it.
Then I'd rape and pillage as that's what us godless heathens do after all. Or, we could all welcome in a new age of science, exploration acceptance and enlightenment, as we are no longer held back by superstition and petty squabbling over what colour hat to wear.

You act as if people don't think of plenty of other reasons to be intolerant, despotic, inhumane, and downright reprehensible. The cover-up story changes, that's all.

[yetanotherdave]

You act as if people don't think of plenty of other reasons to be intolerant, despotic, inhumane, and downright reprehensible. The cover-up story changes, that's all.

I bet you a babillion dollars that we will be more foward scientifically, less prejudice and there will be less wars without religion.

Atheists can be very picky about their hats.

Damn straight, I want a fedora, my (catholic) wife wont let me. Says it all really.

[chrmjenkins]

I bet you a babillion dollars that we will be more foward scientifically, less prejudice and there will be less wars without religion.


How could you objectively evaluate these criteria when society is already headed that way by itself? Moreover, how can you be sure that the amount of wars in the future is any more/less than what they would have been? There's plenty of world leaders who aren't using religion as an excuse to be oppressive or people who don't use religion to commit genocide. At its heart, its a misuse of ideals for one's own benefit.

[yetanotherdave]

How could you objectively evaluate these criteria when society is already headed that way by itself? Moreover, how can you be sure that the amount of wars in the future is any more/less than what they would have been? There's plenty of world leaders who aren't using religion as an excuse to be oppressive or people who don't use religion to commit genocide. At its heart, its a misuse of ideals for one's own benefit.

Ok, abolish all religion and prove me wrong.
Hell, we are currently at war over religion, how can you say it's not the top primary cause of all wars ever.

[Burnsey]

I would take it to at least three people/types of people. 1st the pope, then Khamenei in Iran, and finally to the occupying settlers in the West bank who claim god gave them the land they've stolen.

Having said that I do not believe that a religion-less society will necessarily be better, as most conflicts today are about something other than religion, be it oil, land, or power and influence.

[Benguitar]

Not open it, Burn it, then pray for forgiveness for handling something that is blaspheme.


;)

[chrmjenkins]

Ok, abolish all religion and prove me wrong.
Hell, we are currently at war over religion, how can you say it's not the top primary cause of all wars ever.

That's the point. What either of us say is conjecture. People seem to think the end of religion will throw some magic switch and solve all of our conflicts.

As for your wars comment:

Revolutionary War- Independence from England
War of 1812- Trade restrictions and other things
Civil War - War to keep southern states part of the union (central issue was states' rights and tensions as a result)
World War I- Assassination of a duke (among other things)
World War II- Power hungry fascist. Used the Germans' malcontent about WWI to focus blame on a certain people.
Vietnam War- War over stopping the spread over communism.
Gulf War- War over stopping Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.
etc.

The fact that people engage in wars hasn't changed. Their reasons for them have.

[SLC Flyfishing]

Ok, abolish all religion and prove me wrong.
Hell, we are currently at war over religion, how can you say it's not the top primary cause of all wars ever.

Yetanotherdave:

I thought we were currently at war over WMD's or Terrorism or Oil. I've never heard that it was over religion until your post today.

I guess the fact that our nations have religion, and their nations have religion, then the war must be about religion right?

Why don't you make us a list of all the current and recently past wars over religion to contrast with chrmjenkins' list?

SLC

[SLC Flyfishing]

......Or, we could all welcome in a new age of science, exploration acceptance and enlightenment, ......

(emphasis mine)

I assume you mean acceptance for everyone, assuming they agree to abolish religion from their lives, correct? And if they won't?

SLC

[yetanotherdave]

Yetanotherdave,

I thought we were currently at war over WMD's or Terrorism or Oil. I've never heard that it was over religion until your post today.

I guess the fact that our nations have religion, and their nations have religion, then the war must be about religion right? I think you just hate religion, so you'd like to blame it for everything in this world that you see as a problem.

SLC

Sorry, I forget, why did the terrorists fly planes into the twin towers? Could it have been some religious nutjob idea about infidels? It's bad PR to have a religious war these days, so our leaders branded it a terrorism war instead.

(emphasis mine)

I assume you mean acceptance for everyone, assuming they agree to abolish religion from their lives, correct? And if they won't?

SLC

I meant acceptance of race, gender, sexuality. The premise of the statement is that religion has already been proved false beyond doubt.

[Burnsey]

Sorry, I forget, why did the terrorists fly planes into the twin towers? Could it have been some religious nutjob idea about infidels? It's bad PR to have a religious war these days, so our leaders branded it a terrorism war instead.

I believe it was retaliation for past injustices committed by the US in the middle east. All the religion in the world cant convince you to fly two planes into two buildings halfway around the world. I bet we'll see a similar attack say 20 years in the future, payback for the Iraq war among other things. What goes around comes around...eventually.

[SLC Flyfishing]

Sorry, I forget, why did the terrorists fly planes into the twin towers? Could it have been some religious nutjob idea about infidels? It's bad PR to have a religious war these days, so our leaders branded it a terrorism war instead.

The terrorism may have been religiously motivated (though if you ask any non-neurotic muslim those people were not acting on islamic teachings), but our reasons for going to war had nothing to do with religion. We'd have done the same if they were Columbian Drug Dealers organizing terrorist attacks on America, or some Atheist terrorist group.

SLC

[mactastic]

(emphasis mine)

I assume you mean acceptance for everyone, assuming they agree to abolish religion from their lives, correct? And if they won't?

SLC
Well, you understand, it's not that we hate Christians, just what they do. Love the Christian, hate the Christianity, and all that jazz... ;)

[yetanotherdave]

All the religion in the world cant convince you to fly two planes into two buildings halfway around the world.

It wont convince me to do that, but these people haven't been called extremists for nothing.

[SLC Flyfishing]

Well, you understand, it's not that we hate Christians, just what they do. Love the Christian, hate the Christianity, and all that jazz... ;)

Oh OK, that's reasonable! We're only as good as that which we profess to hate, right?

SLC

[yetanotherdave]

The terrorism may have been religiously motivated (though if you ask any non-neurotic muslim those people were not acting on islamic teachings), but our reasons for going to war had nothing to do with religion. We'd have done the same if they were Columbian Drug Dealers organizing terrorist attacks on America, or some Atheist terrorist group.

SLC

But columbian drug lords haven't done that, religious extremists have. Because of religion. We went to war because they committed a terrorist act, ok, they committed a terrorist act for religious reasons.

(I'm not denying oil, land, power, WMD's as OUR reasons, but THEIR reasons were religious. ANd I know it's a minority, but it's still what happened)

[SLC Flyfishing]

But columbian drug lords haven't done that, religious extremists have. Because of religion. We went to war because they committed a terrorist act, ok, they committed a terrorist act for religious reasons.

(I'm not denying oil, land, power, WMD's as OUR reasons, but THEIR reasons were religious. ANd I know it's a minority, but it's still what happened)

And which teachings were they following, and of what religion?

Methinks they use the guise of religion to act out on their hatred ala Burnsey's explanation.

SLC

[EricNau]

And which teachings were they following, and of what religion?

Methinks they use the guise of religion to act out on their hatred ala Burnsey's explanation.

SLC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Beliefs_and_ideology

[SLC Flyfishing]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Beliefs_and_ideology

Wikipedia? Really?

SLC

[EricNau]

Wikipedia? Really?

SLC
Yes. And now I'm going to link to link to Nature, really:
Internet Encyclopaedias Go Head to Head: Wikipedia comes close to Britannica in terms of the accuracy of its science entries. (PDF) (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7070/pdf/438900a.pdf)

[Burnsey]

But columbian drug lords haven't done that, religious extremists have. Because of religion. We went to war because they committed a terrorist act, ok, they committed a terrorist act for religious reasons.

(I'm not denying oil, land, power, WMD's as OUR reasons, but THEIR reasons were religious. ANd I know it's a minority, but it's still what happened)

In the Quran, god makes it very clear that those who commit suicide for any reason will be tortured in hell with whatever it was they committed suicide with.No religion advocates suicide and mass killing, so I would be interested in the religious reasons they used to do these things.

When it comes to terrorism religion is just there, but rarely if ever is it the primary motivator of these acts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Beliefs_and_ideology

"Bin Laden has consistently dwelt on the need for jihad to right what he believes are injustices against Muslims perpetrated by the United States and sometimes by other non-Muslim states"

There's your motive.

[EricNau]

When it comes to terrorism religion is just there, but rarely if ever is it the primary motivator of these acts.
Religion is in the eye of the beholder, is it not? Can you really separate one's religion from one's self?

[Burnsey]

Religion is in the eye of the beholder, is it not? Can you really separate one's religion from one's self?

What does this have to do with motives for terrorism?

[EricNau]

What does this have to do with motives for terrorism?
Religion isn't clearly defined, not by a long shot. It may seem very straight forward to some, but that simply isn't the case. Religions have varied throughout time and culture; their teachings and beliefs are malleable and variable.

If bin Laden claims to have religious motivation for his acts of terror, we have to take him at his word. That's his religion, regardless of how we may see it. We can use labels like Christian, Catholic, Mormon, Protestant, Jewish, Orthodox, Buddhist, Islam, Deist, Atheist, etc. to provide a way for people of similar beliefs to interact, but ultimately, beliefs are entirely personal. No two Christians hold the same beliefs, nor two Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.

[Lord Blackadder]

Hum, sounds like someone watched The Watchmen recently.

[mactastic]

If bin Laden claims to have religious motivation for his acts of terror, we have to take him at his word. That's his religion, regardless of how we may see it. We can use labels like Christian, Catholic, Mormon, Protestant, Jewish, Orthodox, Buddhist, Islam, Deist, Atheist, etc. to provide a way for people of similar beliefs to interact, but ultimately, beliefs are entirely personal. No two Christians hold the same beliefs, nor two Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.
We can take bin Laden at his word in that he uses religion to motivate his followers, and maybe even himself to some extent.

But that does not mean that we take action based on bin Laden's word. It would be foolhardy in the extreme to approach the bin Laden problem as if it were based in religious grievances. It clearly is not.

[fireshot91]

In the Quran, god makes it very clear that those who commit suicide for any reason will be tortured in hell with whatever it was they committed suicide with.No religion advocates suicide and mass killing, so I would be interested in the religious reasons they used to do these things.






To be fair, that only really lies in the eyes of the beholder.
I can take the Qur'an to mean something, and you can take it to mean something clearly different. (Not saying you or I are Islamic, I'm Hindu)


The Qur'an does not specify in those words that "No man should commit suicide for religious, or personal reasons".

[Burnsey]

To be fair, that only really lies in the eyes of the beholder.
I can take the Qur'an to mean something, and you can take it to mean something clearly different. (Not saying you or I are Islamic, I'm Hindu)


The Qur'an does not specify in those words that "No man should commit suicide for religious, or personal reasons".

If we go by this, then the question remains: If something like a religion or a holy book can be interpreted in so many ways to fit so many different agendas, wouldnt the lack of such things allow nothing to be interpreted in such way? And wouldn't nothing be much easier to morph into something that fits an agenda? In other words religion at least provides a basis, but in its absence anything goes. So while Osama Bin Laden may feel he is justified because of americas "crimes" against muslims, if there was no such thing as Islam and muslims, then he will just claim his morals dictate to him that what he is doing is justified, and his morals are more easily twistable.

If that made sense...

[fireshot91]

I re-read your last sentence like 10 times. Still don't understand it....

[Abstract]

Come on, people! It's nearly Easter. Let's forget this bickering over religion. Jesus sacrificed his own life so that we can eat chocolate eggs, drink until we think we can dance, get laid, and put our work responsibilities on hold until Tuesday.

No religion = no 4-day weekends. Think of the holidays.

[Burnsey]

I re-read your last sentence like 10 times. Still don't understand it....

I'm just saying that you give people something (religion) and they morph it to fit their agendas. Now without religion they could just morph anything to fit their agendas, the morphing will still be done, but something else will be morphed/taken advantaged of. The problems wont go away, because fundamentally the battle and conflict is over something more tangible, like sex, money, land, oil, power and influence.

[Sun Baked]

I re-read your last sentence like 10 times. Still don't understand it....

Is that the one with the twisty morals?

[Full of Win]

Would God hate me if I released it?

[fireshot91]

Is that the one with the twisty morals?

Yeah that's the one. :p


But, we're not talking about if there was no religion. I'm saying that its not clearly defined in the Qur'an (Or any other Holy Book for that matter), what you should or should not do. The people(s) that made those (these) books, thought hard about what they should put into it, and on what basis to believe it.

I want to know what Al Queda read in the Qur'an that they believed gave them the right to terrorize the United States, or any other nation.

If they're any Muslim people here, that read the Qur'an, could you please tell me if it says in there if it is okay to spread, or not to spread said religion?

[apsterling]

I believe it was retaliation for past injustices committed by the US in the middle east. All the religion in the world cant convince you to fly two planes into two buildings halfway around the world. I bet we'll see a similar attack say 20 years in the future, payback for the Iraq war among other things. What goes around comes around...eventually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid

It convinced people to Drink the Kool Aid. I'm sure it could convince people to run a plane into a building.

[chrmjenkins]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid

It convinced people to Drink the Kool Aid. I'm sure it could convince people to run a plane into a building.

From the testimony we have of survivors, the ones who did it willingly were in the minority. That's why we call them extremists.

[Thomas Veil]

Share it, of course.

You'd be stirring up the biggest hornet's nest this world has ever seen, but you'd be doing the world a favor. We may protest the loss of our delusions, but we are better off without them.

[DoFoT9]

make lots of money off of it of course :)

[Teh Don Ditty]

From the testimony we have of survivors, the ones who did it willingly were in the minority. That's why we call them extremists.

If I'm not mistaken, 909 people died. That's not really a minority now is it?

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown#Mass_murder-suicide

[WinterMute]

The proof would have to be so completely irrefutable as to make our faith-based brethren abandon their belief is whatever god they choose to believe in.

Would such proof cover ALL gods or just the western one?

Unless it were utterly irrefutable it would make no difference at all, as pointed out already.

Proof on a level to convince the hard-core faithful would likely have to be borderline divine anyway... There's a whole new argument for the world to fight over.

I don't wear a hat.

[chrmjenkins]

If I'm not mistaken, 909 people died. That's not really a minority now is it?

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown#Mass_murder-suicide

People who didn't comply were forced to do it involuntarily. By all independent accounts from survivors, the majority was forced.

[Digital Skunk]

It wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference. People believe what they want to believe. QED.

This is very true.

As a person who respects both knowledge/facts and people's desires to believe what they want in a civilized and intelligent manner I'd have to share the knowledge.

That is, if there were undeniable proof of God's existence or non-existence.

It's goes along with the Christian disciple wanting to share the "Good News"

p.s. It'd be rather upsetting to see those that once did horrible things, but changed their ways because of religion suddenly revert. Or those that were in utter despair but changed due to religions go back to utter despair.

I don't know if that would outweigh the few douche-bags taking religion too far.

[blackfox]

This is tricky.

I would think it so improbable that any evidence/proof that God doesn't exist would fit into just an envelope, that it in fact doing so may make me think that there is a higher power - just to make the evidence fit.

Now if it was a refrigerator box or a shipping container, that's another story...

oh, and I'd share - but it might not make a difference. People stare truth in the face all the time, and find a way to ignore or discredit it.

[djellison]

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts

Hundreds of millions of people elect to not believe in 'other' Gods - despite their being exactly the same amount of evidence (i.e. none) that proves their existence.

No envelope will ever change their mind, sadly.

[Burnsey]

The only way to prove god does not exist is to find out what exactly happens to you when you die. Until that is proven, I'll still believe in god.

[skunk]

The only way to prove god does not exist is to find out what exactly happens to you when you die. Until that is proven, I'll still believe in god.Burnsey's Wager?

[63dot]

Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer proves conclusively that there is no God to Ned Flanders. ;)

Of course you share it! Get all the information out there and let the chips fall where they may. It's almost never acceptable to withhold information from anyone.

Well said.

I used to watch superhero television shows as a small kid and I thought I could fly. All I did was jump off the backyard fort with a cape on. Nothing bad happened since I was only three feet up. Now if I held onto this belief through my teen years, and adulthood if I made it that far, the notion of flying with just the aid of a cape would end up killing me if I took on "flights" considerably higher than the backyard fort. :)

[emt1]

Religious people often claim that their reason for not doing evil is because of religion/fear of god... so I'd probably burn it.

[remmy]

Religious people often claim that their reason for not doing evil is because of religion/fear of god... so I'd probably burn it.

Yes quiet worrying how some more extreme religious people can be a bit violent, imagine if they had no religion.

I would show everyone in the hope it stopped some of the religious conflict in the world. Do you think people would treat each other better if they realised that your short life is all you have. Sadly I doubt this.

But imagine if you did show it, people would hate you, the various bishops, priests, preachers etc would be after you.

[zap2]

From the testimony we have of survivors, the ones who did it willingly were in the minority. That's why we call them extremists.

thats true for those who flew planes into building on 9/11 as well

[SilentPanda]

I would burn it and not tell anybody. I don't want to be caught with that kind of evidence because I would most definitely be put on some kind of hit list.

You could always put it on Wikileaks. :D

[Don't panic]

Ok, abolish all religion and prove me wrong.
Hell, we are currently at war over religion, how can you say it's not the top primary cause of all wars ever.

it's more of an excuse to sell and justify wars or other heineous and uncivilized behaviors.
the cause is more typically money and power.
but without that excuse, less people would be on board with the 'necessity' of such acts.

[Don't panic]

But imagine if you did show it, people would hate you, the various bishops, priests, preachers etc would be after you.

why would they? if the evidence was conclusive and they genuinely were people of faith, they would thank you for the enlightening.
the only people with a reason to be mad would be those for whom religion is a means to power and wealth. oh, wait...

[leekohler]

why would they? if the evidence was conclusive and they genuinely were people of faith, they would thank you for the enlightening.
the only people with a reason to be mad would be those for whom religion is a means to power and wealth. oh, wait...

It's not just about power and wealth- it's an entire philosophy and belief system. You'd be destroying that for them. Trust me- the person who presented this evidence wouldn't live long.

[chrmjenkins]

it's more of an excuse to sell and justify wars or other heineous and uncivilized behaviors.
the cause is more typically money and power.
but without that excuse, less people would be on board with the 'necessity' of such acts.

It used as an excuse for third world nations yes, but not any of the modern civilized nations. As my list points out, you have to go back to the times of the crusades for the more advanced nations to have religion as a motivator/justification.

However, it is still a significant part of cultural strife that happens between peoples, just as other defining characteristics such as race, gender, and sexuality continue to be.

[Don't panic]

It used as an excuse for third world nations yes, but not any of the modern civilized nations. As my list points out, you have to go back to the times of the crusades for the more advanced nations to have religion as a motivator/justification.

However, it is still a significant part of cultural strife that happens between peoples, just as other defining characteristics such as race, gender, and sexuality continue to be.

i wasn't limiting to wars, but a larger range of 'acts'.
Still, even among 'advanced' nations, usage of religion as a reason/selling point for military enterprises goes well beyond the crusades.
plenty of religious wars within europe past that point, not to mention all the 'missionary' activities in the americas, africa and asia that were a hallmark of colonialism.
I think you have to come to the Napoleonic Wars to get religion out of the equation for major warfare in europe, but again, forces fighting the Bolshevicks in russia were largely drawing form religious sentiments, and anti-semitism was clearly an important aspect of nazi ideology.
and how far back was rethoric against our "god-less" enemies used as a motivator/justification for political actions?

[chrmjenkins]

Still, even among 'advanced' nations, usage of religion as a reason/selling point for military enterprises goes well beyond the crusades.

Indeed it does, but it ceases to be the majority motivator.


plenty of religious wars within europe past that point, not to mention all the 'missionary' activities in the americas, africa and asia that were a hallmark of colonialism.

That was wholesale cultural imperialism, converting "savages" to civilized peoples. Religious conversion was only a part of it.


I think you have to come to the Napoleonic Wars to get religion out of the equation for major warfare in europe, but again, forces fighting the Bolshevicks in russia were largely drawing form religious sentiments, and anti-semitism was clearly an important aspect of nazi ideology.
and how far back was rethoric against our "god-less" enemies used as a motivator/justification for political actions?

Yes, but it wasn't pure antisemitism as a religious vendetta, but against the race as a whole, which is why we label it genocide. Moreover, I think it was a lot of opportunism on Hitler's part, but that's certainly up for debate.

[skunk]

You would probably have to allow for some degree of religious motivation in Northern Ireland.

[Don't panic]

Indeed it does, but it ceases to be the majority motivator.

That was wholesale cultural imperialism, converting "savages" to civilized peoples. Religious conversion was only a part of it.

Yes, but it wasn't pure antisemitism as a religious vendetta, but against the race as a whole, which is why we label it genocide. Moreover, I think it was a lot of opportunism on Hitler's part, but that's certainly up for debate.

i agree with you for the most part. my point is exactly that the religious argument was and is for the most part a matter of 'opportunism'.
the real underlying causes of conflicts, the 'motivators' for the decision-makers are different, but the religion trigger is useful to get the 'people' to go along.

it's true that this applies more massively to developing countries (and muslim countries in particular) but I doubt that our cold-war propaganda against the 'godless communists' would have been equally effective at home if the targets were 'christian communalists' following the example of the apostles. The major ideological divide would have been neutralized.

[Arran]

The envelope would go straight in the junk mail shredder. C'mon folks, envelopes are, like sooo last century. It needs to be on YouTube to be taken seriously now. Eyeballs people, eyeballs! :)

Joking aside, I agree with the sentiment about leading a horse to water. It seems that an awful lot of people need religion: Many (but not all) 'leaders' are stereotypical alpha personalities who greedily suck their authority from it ("I speak for God. Obey me, or you're not one of us"), and the passive followers understandably embrace it as an 'acceptable' excuse for abrogating responsibility ("It's all in God's hands now. I am just a humble servant". I suspect there's a strong link to what's know as "learned helplessness").

Of course, I'm exaggerating for clarity. There are plenty of opportunistic middle-men taking their cut too. (See, everyone benefits from this game! :rolleyes:)

On reflection, I guess it's like any human endeavor: People do things - risky or otherwise - like smoking, drinking, unsafe sex, sunbathing and skydiving, because they want to. It makes them feel good. In control of their lives. Facts be damned!

(Back to the question: What would I do with said envelope? Read it and try to figure out if it's true. Of course!)