90nm Growing Pains

innervision said:

how can anyone, in all seriousness, blame apple for IBM's problem of taking too long to get their chips out in the proper yields...

Click to expand...

I don't know, but it happens...

Reading the article again, I see that they left out a major point that could be causing IBM problems. IBM is trying to convert to 90nm and SSOI at the same time. I believe Intel and AMD are still using SOI.

It's also interesting that they say the the nVidia 6800 is produced on the same process. Is nVidia having supply problems too?

powerbooks

is the upcoming g5 pb expected to use the 90 nm chip, or will it hold out for the 65 nm chip? what are the expectations?

And yes we must remember

That Apple and IBM are also working on a Power5 based PPC. It is my oppinion that Apple and IBM thought that the 970fx would be in full tilt use by now and now they face a dilemma with the Power5 based PPC which should start ramping in May, and available by September for new systems. IBM will release their Power5 based products in June and they are already promoting them.

I sent this to Mac OS Rumors but they didn't post it.

I got an offer from Apple for $500 off a G5 + Cinema HD display that expires June 26th. Sounds like the announcement of the new displays and systems will be at WWDC again.

http://www.apple.com/promo/brilliantsavings/

Sam

I know people like to think it is a race, companies ALWAYS view things as a race to market for sure, but for me this explains alot about the new Powerbook G4's, and why we do not already have the 3Ghz Powermacs. In time we will get all of what we want, G5 everything in our Apples.

Food for thought, IBM is working as fast as they can, Apple is waiting and when it is possible the G5 everything will come, give them time and stop being pissed at "APPLE" for things like this, enjoy your Macs (especially those that are ordering current generation Powerbooks and iBooks) and if you need the fastest get yourself a Powermac Dual 2Ghz for now, or wait for WWDC to see if they announce the new Powermacs.

Take a deep breathe, take a look around you, go outside and look around, remember that the world is not all about a computer, and take in some fresh air. Calm yourself and enjoy life. Perhaps if things go well you will see the G5 in a Powerbook later this year

Well, I have to say that this is surprising. I can't imagine IBM failing like this but I guess it happens to the best of them. I have, however, heard that the 975 PowerPC did not have the same production problems. The reality is that the 970fx, which would be required for Laptops, may be longer in coming than the more advanced (and higher power/heat) 975.

I'm also not surprised that Intel is already producing 90nm chips-- they don't care about heat.

spankalee said:

I don't know, but it happens...

Reading the article again, I see that they left out a major point that could be causing IBM problems. IBM is trying to convert to 90nm and SSOI at the same time. I believe Intel and AMD are still using SOI.

It's also interesting that they say the the nVidia 6800 is produced on the same process. Is nVidia having supply problems too?

Click to expand...

VERY good point. I've heard reports that the SSOI process, and not the 90nm process, is the problem. 975's didn't have the same problem with the Strained Silicon on Insulator process that the laptop capable 970fx did.

I guess it's all rumor now, but it makes sense...

nVidia and Apple?

A quote from the article:

"The foundry business also produces chips based on different architectures with different requirements for customers such as Nvidia Corp. and Intersil Corp. Nvidia's new GeForce 6800 graphics chip is made alongside the PowerPC 970FX in East Fishkill on the new process technology, the spokesman said."

Very interesting. Some people mentioned delays in GPU's as a reason for G5 PowerMac delays. I wonder if nVidia 6800's are on a 90nm SSOI process that would also be suseptable to this problem?

spullara said:

I got an offer from Apple for $500 off a G5 + Cinema HD display that expires June 26th. Sounds like the announcement of the new displays and systems will be at WWDC again.

http://www.apple.com/promo/brilliantsavings/

Sam

Click to expand...

you're about three weeks late there....

Man, I cant wait to get my paws on a dual 3ghz Powermac G5.

June isnt that far away. Hopefully (crosses fingers) the ship date wont lag toooo far behind the announce date...

nVidia...

Frobozz said:

A quote from the article:

"The foundry business also produces chips based on different architectures with different requirements for customers such as Nvidia Corp. and Intersil Corp. Nvidia's new GeForce 6800 graphics chip is made alongside the PowerPC 970FX in East Fishkill on the new process technology, the spokesman said."

Very interesting. Some people mentioned delays in GPU's as a reason for G5 PowerMac delays. I wonder if nVidia 6800's are on a 90nm SSOI process that would also be suseptable to this problem?

Click to expand...

From what I understand that nVidia is so pissed off at IBM that they are taking their business back to Twaiwan. I think I read that on Ars yesterday.

As a side note (I'm a newbie to Apple) why don't they lower their prices on the current G5 line? Do they always wait for an update to lower prices? I'd willing to buy a Rev. A G5 and an "outdated" monitor if they lower the price. I won't pay what every one else did 9 months ago. Funny, I got money to burn on a new rig (I'm already buying a 17"PB for my kid) for myself and I sit and wait for one of two things, Rev B or a lower priced Rev A. Why do I have a feeling that this is going to happen on the same day?

iReilly
------------
Dell 3.2

Frobozz said:

I have, however, heard that the 975 PowerPC did not have the same production problems. The reality is that the 970fx, which would be required for Laptops, may be longer in coming than the more advanced (and higher power/heat) 975.

Click to expand...

oldmacfan said:

That Apple and IBM are also working on a Power5 based PPC. It is my oppinion that Apple and IBM thought that the 970fx would be in full tilt use by now and now they face a dilemma with the Power5 based PPC which should start ramping in May, and available by September for new systems. IBM will release their Power5 based products in June and they are already promoting them.

Click to expand...

Where do people get this stuff? Can you guys provide a link where anyone, even posers like MOSR, claim that the 975, if such a thing really exists, is ahead of the schedule of the 970fx???

The issue is with the 90 nm process production, not with any one particular chip design. The 975--agai,n if such a thing exists--is a 90nm chip so it will suffer the same production and cooling issues as the 970fx.

From TaiwanResearch.com

2004/04/20 Taiwan: TSMC (2330 TT, NT$59.5), UMC (2303 TT, NT$31.5): TSMC and UMC benefit from poor yield of IBM's 12" fab


IBM facing poor yield of 0.13um and 90nm
Main customers such as nVidia and Qualcomm are switching back to TSMC and UMC
Maintain BUY recommendations on TSMC and UMC

According to the "Economic Daily," nVidia, Qualcomm, Broadcom, Cisco and Xilinx are switching back from IBM foundry to TSMC and UMC due to the lower yield of IBM's 12" fab. IBM's lower yield of 0.13um and 90nm, and reducing IP revenue are causing IBM's 1Q losses in the semiconductor division.

Analyst comment:
1) We believe that IBM's lower 12" yield in 1Q04 will benefit TSMC and UMC going forward. The order rotation from IBM back to TSMC and UMC is expected to begin in 2Q04. We expect TSMC to show 8-10% and UMC 10% QoQ sales growth in 2Q04.

2) We expect UMC to benefit from capacity support from SiS and He-Jian beginning in 2Q04, which to show stronger revenue growth momentum than TSMC. However, we retain our BUY on both TSMC and UMC, due to their leading position in the technology universe, and capacity ramp-up, respectively.

James Huang, SinoPac Securities, Office: (886 2) 2316-5143, Mobile: (886) 936-348-680, james.huang@sinopac.com

chasingapple said:

I know people like to think it is a race, companies ALWAYS view things as a race to market for sure, but for me this explains alot about the new Powerbook G4's, and why we do not already have the 3Ghz Powermacs. In time we will get all of what we want, G5 everything in our Apples.

Food for thought, IBM is working as fast as they can, Apple is waiting and when it is possible the G5 everything will come, give them time and stop being pissed at "APPLE" for things like this, enjoy your Macs (especially those that are ordering current generation Powerbooks and iBooks) and if you need the fastest get yourself a Powermac Dual 2Ghz for now, or wait for WWDC to see if they announce the new Powermacs.

Take a deep breathe, take a look around you, go outside and look around, remember that the world is not all about a computer, and take in some fresh air. Calm yourself and enjoy life. Perhaps if things go well you will see the G5 in a Powerbook later this year

Click to expand...

This is probably one of the most refreshing things i have heard on a rumor board in a long time.

People need to realize that Apple probably doesn't even know when they (g5 pbs) are going to come out, so what is the use in the average rumor monger trying to predict something that even Apple or IBM doesn't know?

Apple wants to get out the PowerMacs, they released the new Xserves for probably 2 reasons, 1 because the line needed it, and 2 because they asked IBM, "We know your 90nm isn't working that great right now, but could you handle producing a small amount of 90s just for the Xserve, this way it gets us our server update, and you guys don't have to waste useless chips to figure out your 90nm problems. Our low volume selling Xserve is the perfect solution."

Updates will come when they come, but i wouldn't expect anything before WWDC, Jobs doesn't want to make an ass out of himself and not hit the 3g mark, so EVERYONE CAN BE ASSURED THAT THEY ARE DOING EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO GET THE NEW G5s OUT!

IBM hurting Apple

IBM's hurting Apple on this one. It's sad to see so many manufactures switching back to the other fabs. A positive note is that IBM can focus more on Apples chips. A negative is that there's less production and therefor they cannot distribute the cost of building FK. That could mean that the costs of the G5 could go up, but I doubt it as I imagine that's already been negotiated in the contract.

Too bad for Apple that they've had Motoroloa's lack of focus on G4's and now they run into 90nm fab issues with IBM. None of which are Apples fault. At least the entire industry is facing the same issues. Hopefully IBM can increase yields soon.

This could be a good explinaion of the delays. Another explination could be the uste of ATI PICX graphics cards... Not that they were planning on using these cards.

IBM, AMD, Intel

The PowerPC and the AMD chip are both produced in East Fishkill. AMD designs their chip but uses IBM's foundry.

I didn't know that Intel's 90nm chip was released.

Hopefully this was just a one time thing with the 90nm chips, and this won't turn into something like the Motorola thing. At least they are now in production, so faster G5s must not be far off. However Apple may just wait until WWDC, since it's really not that far off now. But, let's hope they'll be released sooner.

spankalee said:

I don't know, but it happens...

Reading the article again, I see that they left out a major point that could be causing IBM problems. IBM is trying to convert to 90nm and SSOI at the same time. I believe Intel and AMD are still using SOI.

Click to expand...

Intel is 90nm + SS.
AMD is SOI + 130nm - moving to 90nm + SOI.
IBM is 90nm + SS + SOI.... hard stuff...

Maybe it wasn't just a smokescreen

At first when I read on all the rumor sites that the PowerBook G5 wouldn't surface until '05, I thought it was just a sales "smokescreen" to try to get people to buy the newly-revised G4 'books. After all, that rumor appears to have spawned from something said by an Apple exec, and it would only make sense in the interest of sales figures. So I kinda brushed it off and kept my spirits up.

As we find out more and more about these serious delays on the 970FX chips, I'm starting to take the "no PBG5 until next year" rumors more seriously. Painful.

-Piker

All I can say is...

Thank GOD it's not Motorola!

iReilly said:

As a side note (I'm a newbie to Apple) why don't they lower their prices on the current G5 line? Do they always wait for an update to lower prices? I'd willing to buy a Rev. A G5 and an "outdated" monitor if they lower the price. I won't pay what every one else did 9 months ago. Funny, I got money to burn on a new rig (I'm already buying a 17"PB for my kid) for myself and I sit and wait for one of two things, Rev B or a lower priced Rev A. Why do I have a feeling that this is going to happen on the same day?

iReilly
------------
Dell 3.2

Click to expand...

I'm still trying to remember when Apple ever lowered the prices of PowerMacs? I mean in between updates.
I too think it would be quite logical for Apple to lower the prices of the almost 1-year-old PowerMacs. I bet alot of purchases are held off because most potential buyers assume an update sometime soon!
So, why not lower the prices of the current range, and sell more of these babies. I somehow believe Apple had hoped for more PowerMac sales last quarter....

jwmci said:

The PowerPC and the AMD chip are both produced in East Fishkill. AMD designs their chip but uses IBM's foundry.

I didn't know that Intel's 90nm chip was released.

Click to expand...

Man where do you get that from?????


http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/editorial/display/tech-process_8.html

I would suggest reading the entire article, it's a good primer on processor tech.

dongmin said:

Where do people get this stuff? Can you guys provide a link where anyone, even posers like MOSR, claim that the 975, if such a thing really exists, is ahead of the schedule of the 970fx???

The issue is with the 90 nm process production, not with any one particular chip design. The 975--agai,n if such a thing exists--is a 90nm chip so it will suffer the same production and cooling issues as the 970fx.

Click to expand...

The problem is not the etch-size reduction to 90nm. It's the transition to Strained Silicon on Insulator (SSOI) instead of Silicon on Insulator (SOI).