Apple Comments on Microsoft's Laptop Hunter Ads

[Goona]

"I like Apple stuff, but do not like the fact that it is charging what the market will bear."

LOL, isn't this the goal of every company?

[edwardh]

"I like Apple stuff, but do not like the fact that it is charging what the market will bear."

LOL, isn't this the goal of every company?

Yeah, and some do this better than others. Apple is in a different league all together.

[DollarsAndGirls]

Yup, Macs users are smarter and cooler than pc users.

im sure that makes any sense

[-hh]

There is no doubt that Windows has security problems, but because it has been around a long time and its vulnerability well known, most of the anti-virus, firewall, anti-malware, etc. software on the market, free or paid applications are quite good in protecting a PC. Apple is making it sound like a big deal, and you are doing the same.

Sorry, but I deal with the dog food that is Windows on a daily basis, and being merely "quite good" simply isn't good enough.

Earlier this month, we once again had a lost morning of productivity because of overnight patches that required multiple reboots.

Despite multiple layer of Enterprise-strength security protections, 100% of our Windows machine at work have their USB port drivers disabled for external media, because IT can't come up with a robust enough anti-malware solution to the autorun vulnerabilities such as Conflicker on Thumb Drives to satisfy management that Windows is adequate. We've been in this lock-down mode for 6 months now ... any solution yet in sight? Nope.


....YMMV, but I can think of a few reasons to lose faith ... and patience ... in Windows as being a robust, viable productivity tool & platform.

And it has been this way with Microsoft Windows for at least a decade, so why am I being expected to simply tolerate their low quality junk with all of its recurring problems for probably another decade? You don't think that I haven't already heard their "We promise that the next revision of MS-XYZ will solve everything" claim a hundred times before?


It is nice that an operating system is easy to learn and use, but it is not so nice that Apple wants to charge a high premium over "ordinary" operating systems.

So your complaint essentially boils down to that you do like their product, but you don't like to have to pay the premium for it, because that is the price that the market will bear.

However, the reality is that many (if not most or all) markets have this problem where there's segments that are expensive due to "Brand" and segments that are cheap due to "Commodity".

Coffee and Tea are two analogous examples, since the same plant can literally be the source of both good (expensive) and blah (cheap) versions of the consumer's final products. The gradient exists because some pallets can't taste any difference...or they can, but aren't willing to pay the difference.

Windows 7 Beta has been deemed stable and fast, in addition to requiring minimal hardware power. I expect Microsoft to be a much tougher competitor for Apple in the coming years.

If Win7 is as 'fast' as some suggest, how would that not simply depress new hardware sales even further?

Of course, when the Retail version is $200 and the OEM $30, one may as well then use a business plan of: "Buy Win7, get a Free Computer From Dell".

IMO, MS's biggest problem is that they've relied on their OS for the past 25 years to be the enabling vehicle through which they sell their other, more profitable products. This is quite evident when you look at the price gradient between an OEM and Retail version of Windows. And given the current economy, when a corporate manager tells his IT staff "CUT 30%", to prevent themselves from walking out the door, the old MS Enterprise software paradigm is going to come under much closer scrutiny.

I collect Macs. I have Mac 512K, SE/30, IIci, Powerbook 3400c, Powerbook G3 Wallstreet, Powerbook G3 Pismo, Powerbook G4, LC (died), iMac (24-in), and MacPro. I also have every model of iPod except the first generation model. I like Apple products for the design aesthetics more than anything else. I can use Mac OS X just as well as I can use Windows XP/Vista.

Everyone's got to have a hobby.


-hh

[edwardh]

Sorry, but I deal with the dog food that is Windows on a daily basis, and being merely "quite good" simply isn't good enough.

Earlier this month, we once again had a lost morning of productivity because of overnight patches that required multiple reboots.

Despite multiple layer of Enterprise-strength security protections, 100% of our Windows machine at work have their USB port drivers disabled for external media, because IT can't come up with a robust enough anti-malware solution to the autorun vulnerabilities such as Conflicker on Thumb Drives to satisfy management that Windows is adequate. We've been in this lock-down mode for 6 months now ... any solution yet in sight? Nope.


....YMMV, but I can think of a few reasons to lose faith ... and patience ... in Windows as being a robust, viable productivity tool & platform.

And it has been this way with Microsoft Windows for at least a decade, so why am I being expected to simply tolerate their low quality junk with all of its recurring problems for probably another decade? You don't think that I haven't already heard their "We promise that the next revision of MS-XYZ will solve everything" claim a hundred times before?




So your complaint essentially boils down to that you do like their product, but you don't like to have to pay the premium for it, because that is the price that the market will bear.

However, the reality is that many (if not most or all) markets have this problem where there's segments that are expensive due to "Brand" and segments that are cheap due to "Commodity".

Coffee and Tea are two analogous examples, since the same plant can literally be the source of both good (expensive) and blah (cheap) versions of the consumer's final products. The gradient exists because some pallets can't taste any difference...or they can, but aren't willing to pay the difference.



If Win7 is as 'fast' as some suggest, how would that not simply depress new hardware sales even further?

Of course, when the Retail version is $200 and the OEM $30, one may as well then use a business plan of: "Buy Win7, get a Free Computer From Dell".

IMO, MS's biggest problem is that they've relied on their OS for the past 25 years to be the enabling vehicle through which they sell their other, more profitable products. This is quite evident when you look at the price gradient between an OEM and Retail version of Windows. And given the current economy, when a corporate manager tells his IT staff "CUT 30%", to prevent themselves from walking out the door, the old MS Enterprise software paradigm is going to come under much closer scrutiny.



Everyone's got to have a hobby.


-hh

My hobby is collecting Macs, and your hobby is trying desperately to win an argument.

The Mac has increased sales in the consumer market in recent years, but hasn't made much inroad in the enterprise IT area, because it is not perceived as a platform for "real IT". This is not going to change any time soon.

As I said before, Microsoft will be very successful with Windows 7, and HP has finally made a line of notebook PC's (Pavilion dv series) that can win a beauty contest against Apple's MacBook and MBP.

[Goona]

LOL at HP notebooks winning "beauty contests" with Macbooks.

[vipergts2207]

LOL at HP notebooks winning "beauty contests" with Macbooks.

Yeah I'm going to agree with this. Mac styling is unique and aesthetically pleasing. When you see a Mac, you know exactly what you're looking at. The HP's look like the 1000's of other PC's out there.

[Goona]

Yeah I'm going to agree with this. Mac styling is unique and aesthetically pleasing. When you see a Mac, you know exactly what you're looking at. The HP's look like the 1000's of other PC's out there.

Well said, I'm a sucker for good design, which is one of the reasons I like Apple products. They just have well designed, good looking products. Sony also makes nice computers with the Vaios, now if those were mentioned with the Macs I would say its pretty close but HP, come on.

I was in Best Buy today and you could tell them Macs apart from the PC's just by looking at them, they all have similar styling from the mini to the air. With the PC's I couldn't tell which company made them without looking at the logo.

I bet if you were to take the logos off different computers and ask someone to group them by company, it would be easier for consumers to group the Apple computers because of the simplicity and similarities amongst their design theme. You can see this from the ipods to their computers, to Apple TV, to Airport, their keyboards, their software, their packaging, their stores, just simple and elegant.

[DMann]

New Mac ad in the NY Times itemizes a laundry list for running Windows - as easy as 1 - 23:

[-hh]

My hobby is collecting Macs, and your hobby is trying desperately to win an argument.

The Mac has increased sales in the consumer market in recent years,...

So if my argument of product differentiation success is invalid, then please explain why (as you admit) Apple has successfully increased consumer market sales despite (as you point out) higher initial purchase prices?

Its fine for you to shoot down my attempted explanation with a better one, but I've not seen anything other than what can be simplified as: "People are stupid and shouldn't be buying Apple" - - the problem with this type of statement is that it simply doesn't reconcile to reality: the reality is that that people are indeed buying Apple.


... but hasn't made much inroad in the enterprise IT area, because it is not perceived as a platform for "real IT". This is not going to change any time soon.

Isn't it just downright amazing how industries aren't successful in markets that they haven't targeted? I bet that Porsche isn't going to be selling many pickup trucks or motorcycles this year...again(!).


As I said before, Microsoft will be very successful with Windows 7...

Define what "Very Successful" is supposed to mean when one already has 90% lock on the overall market (and higher still in Enterprise)?

I do agree that it will be hard for them to be as spectacularly as unsuccessful as they were with Vista, but since Win7 isn't v7.0 but actually 6.1 (note that Vista was 6.0 in cmd.exe), they're trying to walk a very fine line with Windows 7: MS is simultaneously trying to reassure IT folks that Win7 is not a radical departure from Vista while at the same time tell home consumers that it is.

YMMV, but self-contradiction doesn't sound like a real 'winner' of a marketing strategy to me.

In the meantime, Enterprise is getting increasingly fed up with the "MS Tax" on things like enterprise software costs. Expect Office to crack before the back office stuff...and with Home/Student prices being now what they are, one can suggest that this erosion is already taking place.


However, the bigger (and long term) problem that I see is that MS still hasn't shown that they've actually learned from Vista where their fundamental flaws are in their business plan for rolling out new technology developments.

While they have taken steps so that it won't bite them as badly on the Win7 cycle (hence version 6.1), they've still not recognized and fixed the fundamental problem of their offloading software development to unpaid hardware vendor "partners": under the metrics of (Cost, Schedule, Performance), their approach does save money (Cost), but the method by which it does so is at the expense of everything else (Schedule, Performance).

In other words, their own business plan is what hinders MS's ability to be a competitive technology innovator.


-hh

PS: I hear a rumor that the internal codenames for Windows 8, 9 and 10 are going to be "Saturn", "Saab" and "Pontiac".

[dhowden]

Yeah I'm going to agree with this. Mac styling is unique and aesthetically pleasing. When you see a Mac, you know exactly what you're looking at. The HP's look like the 1000's of other PC's out there.

I have to agree. No matter what they do (I've noticed they've all started producing laptops that look a little bit like MacBooks...), they still look rubbish...

[edwardh]

Yeah I'm going to agree with this. Mac styling is unique and aesthetically pleasing. When you see a Mac, you know exactly what you're looking at. The HP's look like the 1000's of other PC's out there.

The uni-body MacBooks are unique alright, but IMO, they are not aesthetically pleasing. The chicket keyboard makes the MacBook look like a toy. It is not easier to type. The black keys contrast against the rest of the metallic silver computer color does not present a high quality appearance. I prefer the previous generation models.

As to your comment that "The HP's look like the 1000's of other PC's out there", I am pretty sure you have not seen it (HP Pavilion dv series), or that you can't tell a Ferrari from a Corvette.

[vipergts2207]

The uni-body MacBooks are unique all right, but IMO, they are not aesthetically pleasing. The chicket keyboard makes the MacBook look like a toy. It is not easier to type. The black keys contrast against the rest of the metallic silver computer color does not present a high quality appearance. I prefer the previous generation models.

As to your comment that "The HP's look like the 1000's of other PC's out there", I am pretty sure you have not seen it (HP Pavilion dv series), or that you can't tell a Ferrari from a Corvette.

Nope, I looked them up when they were mentioned. The pictures on HP's site were admittedly bad, but from what I could see, I stand by what I said.

[alphaod]

A Mac is a PC. Why is it so hard for Mac users to accept that?

New Mac ad in the NY Times itemizes a laundry list for running Windows - as easy as 1 - 23:

That's dumb; who runs a virus and malware scan on a new computer?

I've had so many issues with a Mac, kernel panics, incompatible card reader; forget it.

[edwardh]

Nope, I looked them up when they were mentioned. The pictures on HP's site were admittedly bad, but from what I could see, I stand by what I said.

This just goes to show that most Mac Heads are looking at Apple products like Apple could do no wrong. The look of the previous generation MacBook and MBP
is a carry-over from the PowerBook and indeed does look aesthetically pleasing. The new Uni-body MB and MBP are newer and have nice glass-surfaced trackpads and magnetic "latches" that won't break, but IMO, they do not look as good. I can understand that Apple probably needed to make products that look substantially different from the previous generation, but this time, Apple really has not made products that looked better.

Another case in point is the new third generation iPod Shuffle. The design is minimalist for sure, but it does not make using it easier, and the look isn't better either. If Apple had put the controls on the earbuds in ADDITION to the ones on the Suffle itself, that would have been much better, as users can choose which to use depending on different circumstances. Of course this leaves lots of room for third-party "enhancement" products to alleviate this 3G Shuffle's shortcomings, but this is absurd. One might as well get a 4G nano and get a LCD screen to boot. Oh, this may have been Apple's intention all along.

Normally, consumers "vote" on the popularity of products with their money. But if people buy Apple products regardless of their design, convenience, price, etc., Apple will have wild products that detract from its tradition as the years progress. Keep your eyes peeled.

[DMann]

That's dumb; who runs a virus and malware scan on a new computer? After downloading and updating online, a scan would not be unreasonable. Besides, updating and running malware and virus scans from hereon in will become a ritual - might as well get used to it from the outset.

A Mac is a PC. Why is it so hard for Mac users to accept that? Yes, but since most PCs come with a crippled OEM version of Windows and bloatware pre-installed on it, one soon realizes that although a Mac is a PC, a PC is not a Mac.

I've had so many issues with a Mac, kernel panics, incompatible card reader; forget it. Kernel panics? How? Incompatible card reader? Quite likely that the manufacturer did not provide a driver.

[-hh]

This just goes to show that most Mac Heads are looking at Apple products like Apple could do no wrong.

On the contrary: Apple has made plenty of mistakes. The IIvi for but one example. They'll also make more mistakes in the future, since no one is able to somehow magically be infallable.

How many mistakes one makes can be an element of corporate leadership and culture: if your goal is to "play it safe" to avoid mistakes, you're going to be fairly timid ... the baseball analogy is to be content hitting singles. On the other hand, if you're going to swing for the fences to strive for a home run (product), you're going to have more strike-outs too. Which strategy is better for your business depends on your business and its strategic position within the marketplace.


The look of the previous generation MacBook and MBP is a carry-over from the PowerBook and indeed does look aesthetically pleasing. The new Uni-body MB and MBP are newer and have nice glass-surfaced trackpads and magnetic "latches" that won't break, but IMO, they do not look as good. I can understand that Apple probably needed to make products that look substantially different from the previous generation, but this time, Apple really has not made products that looked better.

I agree that the current generation doesn't look as visually appealing. To my eye, the black keys seem harsh. As to why they chose this design, I don't know, but what I do know is that white keys (which Apple has used at times) look great initially when you unbox, but after a few week/smonths of use, their accumulation of dirt & grunge on the keys make them look downright horrible. So black could be a fancy design cue ... or it could simply be pragmatic because black hides dirt better. We can ask John Ives the next time he stops by MacRumors :-)


Another case in point is the new third generation iPod Shuffle. The design is minimalist for sure, but it does not make using it easier, and the look isn't better either. If Apple had put the controls on the earbuds in ADDITION to the ones on the Suffle itself, that would have been much better, as users can choose which to use depending on different circumstances. Of course this leaves lots of room for third-party "enhancement" products to alleviate this 3G Shuffle's shortcomings, but this is absurd. One might as well get a 4G nano and get a LCD screen to boot. Oh, this may have been Apple's intention all along.

Part of the whole 'buttonless' bit can be dismissed as a mindshare gimmick...or it might be something more that they're rolling out here to gage reaction prior to it showing up in the next generation iPhone, where it might include features like hands-free phone dialing, etc. Short answer is that we don't know all of the motivational reasons why they chose to do what they do...nor is it reasonable for us to believe that we're somehow entitled to know.

Normally, consumers "vote" on the popularity of products with their money. But if people buy Apple products regardless of their design, convenience, price, etc., Apple will have wild products that detract from its tradition as the years progress. Keep your eyes peeled.

Actually, consumers always vote with their wallet.

And companies always have to be able to change and adapt to the marketplace, or else they become irrelevant and then decline. Its a fundamental element of capitalism.


-hh

[AidenShaw]

Nope, I looked them up when they were mentioned. The pictures on HP's site were admittedly bad, but from what I could see, I stand by what I said.

OMG, look at how ugly - the sides are full of holes.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/34-147-919-S09?$S640W$ http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/34-147-919-S08?$S640W$

Let's count:

4 USB ports
eSATA port (shared with 1 USB port)
1394 port
5 in 1 media card reader
Ethernet RJ45
ExpressCard 54
HDMI
Docking expansion port
VGA
Antenna for builtin HDTV tuner


Wow, what a bunch of ugly crap in a $1050 17.3" system with available Blu-ray and quad-core options!

(...I'm in the function over form camp - I'll take the extra holes over a crippled but pretty Apple laptop ;) )

[Goona]

Damn that looks ugly.

[AidenShaw]

Damn that looks ugly.

And I don't know why all the guys say that you're superficial... ;)

[vipergts2207]

Let's count:

4 USB ports
eSATA port (shared with 1 USB port)
1394 port
5 in 1 media card reader
Ethernet RJ45
ExpressCard 54
HDMI
Docking expansion port
VGA
Antenna for builtin HDTV tuner



This is all from my personal needs, but:

-4 USB ports
I've never needed more than the 2 at once in my MBP. If you need more than 2, you're likely sitting at a desk where you have a USB hub handy anyway.

-eSATA
Ok, one of the things I would like, but I don't have an external HDD anyway, so oh well.

-1394 port
Check. And anyway, people still use firewire? Complete waste of space imo. USB is king.

-Card reader
Something else I've never needed.

-Ethernet
Check again, got one.

-Expresscard 54
I've got Expresscard 34, but once again, I've never used it, nor would I use 54.

-HDMI
Could be useful, but I have DVI soo..

-Docking port
Why does anyone need a docking port? Just a plain USB hub should work for most people.

-VGA
Once again, DVI.

-HDTV tuner antenna
Nice feature, but using a slingbox would be much more versatile.

And this is for a 15.4" which has less space for ports than a 17.3" I would hardly call my Mac crippled.

[-hh]

This is all from my personal needs, but:

Understood, and to a degree, the same here...but also from a pragmatic perspective that fewer ports = stronger case ("Form Over Function"), which can also allow it to be lighter at the same strength. Considering that this anchor of an HP weighs nearly 8lbs, it could clearly benefit from being lighter.


-4 USB ports
I've never needed more than the 2 at once in my MBP. If you need more than 2, you're likely sitting at a desk where you have a USB hub handy anyway.

Plus since there's that docking port, that is another venue for having USB's.

On the road, I've found that it is nice to have 2 ports free to be able to quickly transferring files between two thumb drives without having to drop it onto the desktop.

However, the ability to do this varies by PC and Flash media device: I've seen many newer (larger) flash drives which are figuratively big & chunky, which end up blocking adjacent USB ports in both the "side by side" as well as "stacked" USB port configurations. As such, this utility mostly only exists with the older slim memory stick designs, which can fit into a USB port without blocking any of its neighbors. Its a pretty sad situation when you need 5 ports in order to get 3 useful ones.

From a personal perspective, because our IT disabled all autorun USB media as a security risk (Conficker) six months ago, the only thing that I can use USB for today under Windows while I'm on the road would be for a mouse and to synch/recharge my Blackberry...a total of 2 ports.

And for any of these, one could suggest another USB port to hook up a printer, but one doesn't generally carry around a printer, and a hub is tiny in comparison to any printer....and only costs $5 for the stereotypical 'poor college student'...I think we can skip ONE Starbucks coffee to pay for this.

-eSATA
Ok, one of the things I would like, but I don't have an external HDD anyway, so oh well.

Nice to have for an external HD, but its questionable on a laptop that has that docking port, particularly since the eSATA drive will always require a second cable for power too. So long as the docking station isn't expensive, you're much better off getting it and going for cabling convenience. Finally, it is effectively duplicative of the Firewire port, with the caveat that while it is a faster, it is unfortunately less capable, since eSATA can only be used to hook up just a HD - nothing else.


-1394 port
Check. And anyway, people still use firewire? Complete waste of space imo. USB is king.

Yes and No. FW is arguably friendlier for "on the road" HD's (think digital still photography - 2nd HD data backup) and unlike eSATA, it can also be used for interfacing to digital camcorders....plus with a reader, its a nice speedy I/O for still photography media cards.

OTOH, using it for an external HD generally runs into the same issue as the eSATA: why not just use the docking port? Personally, I'd keep this one, as the HP's docking station is $126 before $23 rebate ($103 net), unless I'm really looking at making a strong docking setup with external monitor, HDs, keyboard, mice, etc.


-(5 in 1 Media) Card reader
Something else I've never needed.

I've had need, but the built-ins are a bad joke IMNSHO.

First off, very few people have ever needed to use 5 different types of Media within the same 6 months, so there's again an inefficiency here...and if someone is crazy enough to have that many formats, what they really probably need is to cover all bases, which means a "23-in-one".

But more importantly, a built-in media card reader is functionally non-upgradable, and since flash media keeps on getting upgrades & changing, one can easily end up in 18 months with a slot that's incompatible with some the newest (highest capacity) formats....so you're going to end up with another reader anyway.

And from a pragmatic standpoint, they're dirt, water, & lint magnets that have no protective covers on most laptops...they become yet another source of failure for hardware that can't be easily serviced/replaced for the very reason that they are built-in.

Overall, if you want good I/O speed, you'll probably lean towards using a Firewire reader, and if you want the best of both worlds (speed & 'built-in'), you'll put the reader you need into the ExpressCard slot. For either approach, as your equipment changes (or technology), you can upgrade through simple replacement of a minor peripheral...helps to avoid premature obsolescence.



-Ethernet
Check again, got one.

But on the HP its a 10/100 10bT and not Gigabit Ethernet. True, this doesn't really matter for generic email or surfing, but for customers with a good LAN who's using network storage, you'll definitely notice the fact that the bandwidth of 100bT is much slower than USB2 (roughly 1/5th) when trying to do data backups, etc. Even wireless N is faster than 100bT today.


-Expresscard 54
I've got Expresscard 34, but once again, I've never used it, nor would I use 54.

Personally, I'd use it for memory cards. Since a CF reader for EC54 fits flush whereas it sticks out 1/4" for EC34, I'd prefer to have EC54, all other factors being equal...but EC34 works too. Either is significantly preferable to a permanently built-in slot for the reasons already mentioned.



-HDMI
Could be useful, but I have DVI soo..

-VGA
Once again, DVI.

Having both is trying to be accommodating to various corporate meeting rooms where you never know how new/old the projector is going to be. But since HDMI is relatively new, you'll need to carry a DVI adaptor with you anyway. Of course, if its a business machine, then why is there a TV tuner?

-Docking port
Why does anyone need a docking port? Just a plain USB hub should work for most people.

It will, but a docking station is useful for when one is building up a healthy desktop system while also needing to unplug relatively frequently. I've been using docking stations on my Thinkpads and it is handy. For an Enterprise application, HP's asking price of $126 ($103 after rebate) is worth spending, although for the stereotypical poor college student, he's going to get 90% of his utility from a simple $10 USB hub.

-HDTV tuner antenna
Nice feature, but using a slingbox would be much more versatile.

TV tuners in laptops are an odd idea, IMO. To be able to record means that your laptop is tied down to its desktop home and is thus, non-portable during that time. As such, if you're doing it to time-shift, you can't be on the road with the laptop....but if you're not on the road, then you're at home and there's probably a normal TV in the other room. As such, most of the perceived utility here seems to be for a college student in their dorm room who's supposed to be busy doing homework. :rolleyes:

And this is for a 15.4" which has less space for ports than a 17.3" I would hardly call my Mac crippled.

A good catch, since much of this is a case of "There's a lot of ports because we can", because its a big honking 17" machine.

The Windows PC vendors are effectively stuck with a lack of product differentiation in many other areas, so they use 'feature counts' like this one: its not about if XYZ ports really provides customer value - its about having more XYZ than what Dell offers, so hopefully that the customer will buy the HP instead.

And "More Stuff!" is effectively what the message of this marketing campaign is about - - its not about if the 'Stuff' is really actually useful or not - - its merely the 'More (Bigger) is better' mantra. So golly gosh gee ... let's go buy that SUV of laptops without even thinking about if we really need seating for 7 (and 273 cup holders) when we only have one kid.


-hh

[AidenShaw]

(Conflicker)

Conficker, no "l".


...since the eSATA drive will always require a second cable for power too.

Apparently you didn't know about Power Over eSATA ?

There's enough power for a 2.5" drive or DVD in the port. Not enough for a 3.5", but not even 1394 can drive a typical big hard drive.

[-hh]

Apparently you didn't know about Power Over eSATA ?

I'm quite aware of it, as its been a topic under some discussions I've followed to create an eSATA version of a USB thumb drive.

However, while power-over-eSATA was announced in 2008 as topic for standardization by SATA-IO, at present, is still under development and not yet a Real World Feature.

You can check out the SATA-IO webpage on eSATA (http://http://www.serialata.org/technology/esata.asp) where you'll find that power isn't yet listed as an eSATA feature.

Thus, the eSATA port on this HP laptop is a "normal" eSATA port, not a power-over eSATA.

Kind of hard, since the standard to which it would be built to doesn't exist yet...and FWIW, my major complaint with external SATA is that they're always been behind the power curve in getting things standardized, which has caused adoption headaches and customer confusion between External SATA versus eSATA and "now soon come" variants of eSATA's power over implimentations ... such as this one (http://http://www.dvhardware.net/article34568.html), which taps into eSATA for signal and a USB port for power...and this one (http://http://www.alibaba.com/product/tw100433631-104428574-0/6100A_Adapter_PCI_E_USB_to_2_x_Power_over_eSATA_eSATA_USB_.html), which claims to have Power over eSATA by apparently having a patented (eSATA + USB) connector design...due to there being a patent, its not particularly likely that that's going to be adopted as the International Standard by SATA-IO, so its going to be a White Elephant.


There's enough power for a 2.5" drive or DVD in the port. Not enough for a 3.5", but not even 1394 can drive a typical big hard drive.

True, plus its not uncommon on many laptops (Windows laptops in particular) to only offer the less useful powerless variant of 1394.

And at least powered Firewire does have enough output to honestly run a 2.5" external drive ... there's some 2.5" USB externals that come with a "double dongle" USB cable so that it can tap into two USB ports for power, so that it doesn't exceed the USB spec when the HD spools up...this is a work-around for those smarter systems that actually monitor USB power draws in real time and which then shut off ports when they're drawing more power than they're technically allowed to (the D-Link 8 port USB hubs that I have do this).


-hh

[DMann]

Damn that looks ugly.I'd go as far to say that it's fugley. A Swiss Army Laptop, which really needs to be renamed, a desktop. What's the point of carrying everything with you when you travel? That's what peripherals are meant for - for choosing what you need to bring with you on any given day. Sure hope the wheels for that thing don't cost extra.

[AidenShaw]

I'd go as far to say that it's fugley. A Swiss Army Laptop, which really needs to be renamed, a desktop. What's the point of carrying everything with you when you travel?

Yes, it's a desktop replacement.

The people who buy them are looking at specs and performance. Weight, size and battery life are unimportant - these machines are going to spend their time on a desk connected to the wall.

Why do you have this tunnel vision that everyone who buys a laptop is a road warrior, only concerned about weight and battery life? Drop your conceit, and think about what might be important to other people.

[AidenShaw]

Thus, the eSATA port on this HP laptop is a "normal" eSATA port, not a power-over eSATA.

Can you prove that?

My new Latitude XT2 12.1" has an eSATA external DVD writer with Power Over eSATA - but nothing in its spec sheet mentions that.

Did you know that 802.11n is still not a spec, although widely available?

[DMann]

Yes, it's a desktop replacement.Precisely, they ought to market it as such, and not peddle it as a Laptop. You know for a fact, that all people who purchase what is classified a 'laptop' intend to utilize it as a desktop? Tunnel vision takes on a new meaning now. Nice theory, speaking of conceit.

[-hh]

...
My new Latitude XT2 12.1" has an eSATA external DVD writer with Power Over eSATA - but nothing in its spec sheet mentions that.

Which means that you're admitting that you can't prove that claim either.


Did you know that 802.11n is still not a spec, although widely available?

I didn't say that "Cart before the Horse" can't ever be successful.

The point is that adoption risk is always higher when there's not any agreed-upon interface standard...

Only time will tell if the interface method of your current DVD writer will be the one that becomes the common standard. Since its probably only a $50 peripheral, you might not care if it functionally has a lifespan only equal to that particular laptop...but the risk:benefit may conclude differently if it were a $500 LCD monitor (alluding to some of Apple's "funny pluggy" stuff over the year)

Yes, I'm being critical of proprietary interfaces no matter who makes them.

It comes down to the question of if one is willing to take the risk of 'White Elephant' as the early adopter, and this has been with us for decades. For example, I can recall how the 3.5" floppy disk went through seven (7) different formats in use in our office in a period of only ~5 years (FYI, it was 3 variants on Mac ... and 4 more variants on PCs).

And FWIW, having a published standard helps reduce the risk which mostly falls upon just the Early Adopter...but its still not a guarantee of success. Afterall, both HD-DVD & Blu-Ray had standards

-hh

[Sehnsucht]

Let's count:

4 USB ports
eSATA port (shared with 1 USB port)
1394 port
5 in 1 media card reader
Ethernet RJ45
ExpressCard 54
HDMI
Docking expansion port
VGA
Antenna for built-in HDTV tuner



Built-in media card readers are retarded, I prefer my 1394 external 12-in-one. ;)

Nobody uses VGA anymore, it's time to join the digital revolution and get DVI or DisplayPort. HDMI is indeed digital, but found on relatively few displays as of yet.

Also, I notice this laptop's 1394 port is a four-pin, which doesn't supply voltage. So I guess no external hard drives. FireWire 800 please.

As for the rest of those "holes", I've got nothing against them, I think the fugliness comes from the awful chunky shape of the frame itself.

Oh yes, and it comes with Vista. There's a hole for you! No thanks. :D

[AidenShaw]

Precisely, they ought to market it as such, and not peddle it as a Laptop. You know for a fact, that all people who purchase what is classified a 'laptop' intend to utilize it as a desktop? Tunnel vision takes on a new meaning now. Nice theory, speaking of conceit.

Some people consider an Imac to be a portable...

http://www.ilugger.com/images/product_images/black_24inch_w100.jpg

"Desktop replacement" is a description of a class of laptops, not a requirement that the system cannot be carried around.


Which means that you're admitting that you can't prove that claim either.

I was wrong - the Dell eSATA external drives aren't Power Over eSATA. The Dell laptop eSATA port is a single port that's both eSATA and USB 2.0. The Dell eSATA DVD drive cable has two additional pins that grab the USB power in the port.


Nobody uses VGA anymore

Some people must: http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB572Z/A

[-hh]

Some people consider an Imac to be a portable...

http://www.ilugger.com/images/product_images/black_24inch_w100.jpg

I can recall having a carry-case for a Mac Plus...and occasaionlly using it. And back in the 1970s, an older brother had a "Portable" calculator - - he got screwed during an exam because the 6ft power cord ended in a 3 prong plug and he didn't have an adaptor for the 2 prong outlet that he had scouted out. He was thus forced to 'fall back' to using his $300 slide rule. :eek:

"Desktop replacement" is a description of a class of laptops, not a requirement that the system cannot be carried around.

There's a few euphanisms...another one is the "luggable".

In general, what these desktop replacement laptops are effectively is a market segment that is voting with their wallet and saying that the form factor (including its ability to be "lugged" occasionally) is more important to them than the upgradability of a tower (or minitower). The recurring proponents of the infamous xMac should keep this in mind.

I was wrong - the Dell eSATA external drives aren't Power Over eSATA. The Dell laptop eSATA port is a single port that's both eSATA and USB 2.0. The Dell eSATA DVD drive cable has two additional pins that grab the USB power in the port.

Not a problem.

Currently, it does do what you need it to do, and with that level of expecatations, everything is fine.

My point was in looking at the Roger's Innovation Adoption Curve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_lifecycle) for where power-over-eSATA stands. It is currently in the realm of Innovators/Early Adopters phase (definitions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations#Adopter_Categories)). My observation is merely that this is also where there's the highest risk of "White Elephant" configuration attempts which will fail to make the leap to mainstream (Early/Late Majority) and thus become orphans.

Thus, because of this non-insignificant adoption risk, the degree to which we should consider that paticular I/O port to really be a "Feature" (or not) is subject to debate & interpretation.

Afterall, if the choice is between an I/O port only has one device that can be effectively plugged into it, versus another I/O port that can take 50 different products, even if none of them are quite as good...which one really is "Better"?


-hh

[DMann]

Some people consider an Imac to be a portable...

http://www.ilugger.com/images/product_images/black_24inch_w100.jpg

"Desktop replacement" is a description of a class of laptops, not a requirement that the system cannot be carried around. Some people consider the Mac Pro to be a portable - notice handles for easy carrying. Perhaps, according to your logic, it ought to be renamed, the Mac Pro Totable.

[Sehnsucht]

Some people consider an iMac to be a portable...

http://www.ilugger.com/images/product_images/black_24inch_w100.jpg

The hideousness of the Dells I have to use make dragging my heavy iMac with me worth it. :D

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr214/TheDavidFrom1988/0211091018.jpg

Especially when I can't use the Dells at all:

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr214/TheDavidFrom1988/0429090755a.jpg

Some people must: http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB572Z/A

Yes, I do seem to recall all 10 of those people complaining that the adapter is $30. :cool:

[Wikinerd]

Some people consider an Imac to be a portable...

http://www.ilugger.com/images/product_images/black_24inch_w100.jpg

"Desktop replacement" is a description of a class of laptops, not a requirement that the system cannot be carried around.


Apple never marketed that iMac as a "laptop"...

[AidenShaw]

Apple never marketed that iMac as a "laptop"...

My point is that "portable" means different things to different people.

I personally consider a 17" to be a desktop - even the 17" aluminum Apple. For me, it's much too big to consider carrying around. 14" is what I consider a big laptop, and most of the time I have my 12" Dell Latitude XT (which fits loosely in an MBA sleeve) or netbook.

So, there's no justification for the original poster to say that machine X (which obviously looks like and has all the features of a laptop) should be called a "desktop" because the original poster feels like some spec on the machine is "un-laptop-like".

[tubbymac]

The people who buy them are looking at specs and performance. Weight, size and battery life are unimportant - these machines are going to spend their time on a desk connected to the wall.

My new Latitude XT2 12.1" has an eSATA external DVD writer with Power Over eSATA - but nothing in its spec sheet mentions that.


Good point on the notebooks as a desktop replacement. A lot of people who buy notebooks these days are buying them not to lug around, but to sit on their desktop all day. That's a market well catered to by the PC notebook vendors. When it's going to sit on a desk and not really ever be seen by anybody else, things like weight and looks come second to price and performance/features.

That's why I got my Dell Latitude after I already have a Macbook and a Macbook Air. The thing is 15 inches, very plain looking, but it's going to sit on a desk most of the time so I don't care about the aesthetics or the weight.

That XT2 you got is nice. These days the only good screens are the IPS ones on high end tablet machines like that. I wish Apple would go against the grain and not offer such junk TN panels on their notebooks like the rest of the industry and have the balls to put out some even more expensive models with quality IPS screens.

The hideousness of the Dells I have to use make dragging my heavy iMac with me worth it. :D


Ug, your school really went with the bargain bin stuff there. Those Dell monitors are the low end cheapo stuff. That Dell keyboard is probably worth like 2 bucks and is the cheapest one you can buy. The machine underneath the desk looks like some junk consumer grade Dimension model too.

I'd probably carry around an iMac too if I was forced to use that garbage, lol. Why not just work from home? Or do they make you use the lab for some reason? Comp labs have always sucked unless you get access to the research labs with the supercomputers.

As for built in card readers. I tried transferring photos over wireless cards and USB connections for a while and then tried using an SD card slot instead. I can't go back to wireless (too slow) or USB (annoying cable) and am now hooked on using SD/express cards instead.

[-hh]

Apple never marketed that iMac as a "laptop"...

Probably so, but the original Mac's (Mac 128-512-Plus) were featured in a TV commercial as a "luggable".

IIRC, the catchphrase was something along the lines of...

"What do you mean, that they're bringing their HOME computers to WORK?"

-hh

[Sehnsucht]

I wish Apple would go against the grain and not offer such junk TN panels on their notebooks like the rest of the industry and have the balls to put out some even more expensive models with quality IPS screens.

When will Apple figure out that there are HORDES of salivating people WAITING to hand them tons of money if they'd just do this exact thing! :eek: Sure, there'd be lots of bitching on MR about the price, but sales would absolutely go through the roof (especially if these new laptops also used TI FireWire chipsets.) ;)

Ugh, your school really went with the bargain bin stuff there. Those Dell monitors are the low end cheapo stuff. That Dell keyboard is probably worth like 2 bucks and is the cheapest one you can buy. The machine underneath the desk looks like some junk consumer grade Dimension model too.

:D The keyboard is OK, but the Optiplexes themselves are hideous. They are slow as ******, freeze and crash often, especially when trying to run several Adobe apps at once. It really pisses me off when I'm in Photoshop working on a project and the hourglass comes up, I don't know whether it's busy drawing my brush strokes or if it froze. I just have to wait 10 minutes to find out, that's the fun. :eek: My class is Web Design, which only uses the Adobe suite, but I really feel sorry for the students across the hall in 3D Animation who have use the same Optiplexes to run freaking MAYA. :eek: Their systems might have an extra gig of RAM and a slightly better video card, but they do have the exact same hideous square monitors. :mad: I've actually considered complaining about the computers to the school administrators since they're unusable and I'm paying $1,500 tuition to take classes there. At that price, the school should have a Mac-Pro sized budget to work with. :rolleyes:

I'd probably carry around an iMac too if I was forced to use that garbage, lol. Why not just work from home? Or do they make you use the lab for some reason? Comp labs have always sucked unless you get access to the research labs with the supercomputers.


My schedule. If I'm not at school, then I'm at work. :(

Actually, there are several colleges in this area that I'm looking at---I may go with the one that uses Macs exclusively (http://www.oru.edu/news/news_stories.php?id=32&intNav=), but it'd be a trade off of sorts since this is a religious college, probably full of nutcases. :D :D

[Pika]

New Microsoft Ad (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/05/01/microsoft_ups_cash_limit_takes_aim_at_macbook_pros_in_new_ad.html)

[polaris20]

New Microsoft Ad (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/05/01/microsoft_ups_cash_limit_takes_aim_at_macbook_pros_in_new_ad.html)

This has got to be the most retarded of them all.

Editing HD video right now on my 2.4Ghz UMBP. Yeah, I know. I went ahead and splurged for the 4GB from OWC for $50.

[shelby-vn]

I understand that when someone chooses a computer other than a Mac they are 99% sure to be buying Windows with it, but it just kind of irks me a bit when these commercials seem to be Microsoft taking credit for hardware that they have nothing to do with, save mere compatibility

[edwardh]

OMG, look at how ugly - the sides are full of holes.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/34-147-919-S09?$S640W$ http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/34-147-919-S08?$S640W$

Let's count:

4 USB ports
eSATA port (shared with 1 USB port)
1394 port
5 in 1 media card reader
Ethernet RJ45
ExpressCard 54
HDMI
Docking expansion port
VGA
Antenna for builtin HDTV tuner


Wow, what a bunch of ugly crap in a $1050 17.3" system with available Blu-ray and quad-core options!

(...I'm in the function over form camp - I'll take the extra holes over a crippled but pretty Apple laptop ;) )

Ports on the sides of the computers are a necessity and do not make them look "ugly". Gone are the days when notebook PC ports had door covers that broke and got lost. If you closely look at the last Powerbook G4 and the previous generation (Non-Unibody) MacBook 15-in, then check out HP's dv5 Pavilion Notebook PC, you will see a lot of similarity in their appearances. All have elegant looks that the Unibody MacBooks cannot match. Although I collect a lot of Macs, I do like the look of the HP dv5. I still deem HP dv5 will win a beauty contest against the current Unibody MacBooks. Perhaps it is possible to put OS X on the dv5. :)

[Pika]

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/34-147-919-S09?$S640W$ http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/34-147-919-S08?$S640W$

Is that plastic?

[edwardh]

New Microsoft Ad (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/05/01/microsoft_ups_cash_limit_takes_aim_at_macbook_pros_in_new_ad.html)

The notebook PC that Shiela finally walked out the door with was a HP Pavilion dv6. It is slightly larger than dv5, but still retains the nice metallic and quality look. :)

[edwardh]

Is that plastic?

Higher end models are metal while low end models are plastic.

[Pika]

Some people consider the Mac Pro to be a portable - notice handles for easy carrying. Perhaps, according to your logic, it ought to be renamed, the Mac Pro Totable.

You can!

Turn your Mac Pro 8-core 2.93GHz Nehalem 4TB hard-drive with 32GB of RAM into a mega MacBook Pro!

http://hughsung.com/images/Serendipity_8A4/tn_DSC04666.png

PUUUUURE WIN!!! http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/buttrock.gifhttp://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/buttrock.gifhttp://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/buttrock.gif

[Eidorian]

PUUUUURE WIN!!! I for one agree with you entirely.

[lifeinhd]

Ports on the sides of the computers are a necessity and do not make them look "ugly".

I'm sorry, I thought it was obvious that he was being sarcastic... :rolleyes:

[tubbymac]

I actually had a HP dv5t for a week before I returned it. There is no way any of the HP dvt models compares to a Macbook in terms of looks. The seams on the plastic don't even match up perfectly where the edges of the plastic meet together. It also feels and looks really bulky. The Macbook is in a whole other league of design, sorry.

Even in the first Microsoft commercial, that Lauren chick likes the look of the Dell machine better than the HP (even though she doesn't know that it's a Dell Studio 17 she's talking about).

[4D4M]

A Mac is a PC. Why is it so hard for Mac users to accept that?We know it is. And we also know that there may be some ghastly bricks for sale out there with higher specification at a lower cost than our MacBook Pro. But we still choose our MacBooks, because we like them better.

Why is it so difficult for PC users to accept that?

[warpet]

Until Apple has something comparable to Media Center I'm sticking with Windows. Windows 7 Media Center has Clear Qam support with fully functional DVR and 2 week program guide that allows me to record shows in much better quality than what Apple wants you to pay for. I'm sorry but Frontrow doesn't even come close to MCE neither do Sagetv, BeyondTV or any thing else for that matter and it's free.
As far as BSOD's I haven't had one since Windows 98 I can't remember the last time windows even froze that's more of a Mac problem than a Windows problem. As far as viruses go I have a very good antivirus program it's called AVG and it's free, but I never leave it running becuase I don't download porn. You guys watch too many commercials Windows Isn't nearly as bad as Apple would have you think. Infact Windows 7 is the 2nd best operating system I've ever used and the best isn't from Apple.
The only people who like the Mac ads are Mac fans, PC owners see these ads as insulting and childish at best. As PC owners they know Windows rarely Freezes or locks up. These ads are meant to keep current customers more than to get PC owners to switch.

[warpet]

We know it is. And we also know that there may be some ghastly bricks for sale out there with higher specification at a lower cost than our MacBook Pro. But we still choose our MacBooks, because we like them better.

Why is it so difficult for PC users to accept that?

We just find it strange that someone would gladly pay twice as much for the same thing. Why is that so hard to understand?

[Lestrange]

Quote:
"A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want .... The one thing that both Apple and Microsoft can agree on is that everyone thinks the Mac is cool. With its great designs and advanced software, nothing matches it at any price."

...is it just me, or does this seem in part to be an admission of 'cool tax'...


And pcs certainly do do what you want, often at less cost, they may not do it as smoothly, they may not look all that nice, they may not have all the bells and whistles and fancy extras, but the simple fact is initial outlay for a machine is often THE deciding factor in buying an expensive piece of hardware for most non-rich people. =]

Don't get me wrong, I love Apple, and Macs, and ideally I'd be running both Mac and PC, but the closest thing to a decent machine from Apple is far out of my and most average people's price range (design/illustration student here).

[AidenShaw]

...the closest thing to a decent machine from Apple is far out of my and most average people's price range (design/illustration student here).

So, your point is that "an Apple would be cool if it offered value commensurate with the price"?

[Sehnsucht]

We just find it strange that someone would gladly pay twice as much for the same thing. Why is that so hard to understand?

Why is it so hard to understand that it really isn't the same thing?

Sure, a Mac may contain mostly the same components as a Windows PC, but they also run an infinitely better OS and are backed up by infinitely better support, i.e. Apple. And as an added plus, they're shiny!

Yeah I know..."Buh-buh-buh-but my Dell PowerEdge systems come with three-year free on-site servicing and repair through Dell" blah blah blah...We're talking about consumer-class desktops and laptops here, not enterprise servers. Yeah, buy a cheap (or expensive) PC at Best Buy and have fun getting ripped off by the Freak Squad...(or you could take a class to learn Hindi and then call the HP tech support hotline.) :D :D

Ours are better. :apple:

[DMann]

So, your point is that "an Apple would be cool if it offered value commenserate with the price"?Commenserate? Perhaps you mean commensurate? Apple does indeed offer value commensurate with their prices. The Mac's overall user experience, reliability, support, hassle free, and seamless operation seems to appeal to those who immensely value their time, peace of mind, and an OS environment which tends not to get in the way, i.e. interfere with their productivity. Value can be measured in ways beyond monetary measures alone, and to many, the premium is well justified.

[4D4M]

We just find it strange that someone would gladly pay twice as much for the same thing. Why is that so hard to understand?

It's OK that you find it strange, everybody is different. I've chosen a Mac with OS X and I won't be changing my mind. You've chosen a PC with Windows. Enjoy.

So why are you here, on a Mac site? Did you come here just to tell us our choice is wrong?

[edwardh]

I actually had a HP dv5t for a week before I returned it. There is no way any of the HP dvt models compares to a Macbook in terms of looks. The seams on the plastic don't even match up perfectly where the edges of the plastic meet together. It also feels and looks really bulky. The Macbook is in a whole other league of design, sorry.

Even in the first Microsoft commercial, that Lauren chick likes the look of the Dell machine better than the HP (even though she doesn't know that it's a Dell Studio 17 she's talking about).

IMO, dv5 looks better than MacBook/MBP, and is priced only one-third the cost of a MacBook Pro. The Apple is just too way over-priced.

In the Microsoft commercial, Lauren may have liked another machine, but she walked out the store with a HP notebook.

[joaoferro37]

The price is right but it is not sexy.

[-hh]

... You guys watch too many commercials Windows Isn't nearly as bad as Apple would have you think.

There are many readers/posters here who use Windows PCs every day at work and thus aren't the ones who are watching too much TV ...


These {Apple} ads are meant to keep current customers more than to get PC owners to switch.

But if that's true, then how is it reconciled with the fact that roughly 40% of new Mac sales are going to customers who new to the platform?

We just find it strange that someone would gladly pay twice as much for the same thing. Why is that so hard to understand?

Because they're not the "same thing" for as far as that buyer is concerned.

For example, a laptop that is 1/2 the price, but is 2x the weight...is it the same thing?

YMMV, but it shouldn't be all that intellectually hard to understand the concept of different people having different needs, priorities & thus, with them ending up with different product choices at the end of the day.


-hh

[Double J]

The price is right but it is not sexy.

See, it all boils down to this ^^^. It's strictly aesthetics over value, and Mac people have such an annoying superiority complex. EVERY other argument falls apart under scrutiny, to the point where every single Mac user eventually falls over and just says "It's just different okay, why don't you understand that, leave me alone, ahhhhh!"

"OS X is infinitely superior to Windows :D:apple::cool:"
Really? Why?
"It just is. :p:rolleyes:;):apple::D" (Why do people on this forum use so many frickin smilies?)

Put a Mac user and PC user side by side and see how much ACTUAL WORK each one can get done. Maybe the Mac is good if all you use is Photoshop, but I have to use anywhere between 30 and 50 different applications every day, and usually have 10 or 12 open simultaneously. "But, but what about all the PC problems, the viruses, the headaches, the tech support???" Yeah, in any given year, that might take up 1/10th of 1% of my time.

And the reason I'm on MacRumors is because I have an iPhone and love it. That's where their design philosophy actually makes sense. Sure, it lacks some basic features and has some annoying Apple-y qualities (like lying about battery life), but what it can do for a portable device still can't be beaten.

[NT1440]

We just find it strange that someone would gladly pay twice as much for the same thing. Why is that so hard to understand?

Because its not the same damn thing, obviously. Does anyone using a computer look at just the specs? Its the whole experience mac users love, is THAT so hard to understand?

[AidenShaw]

Its the whole experience mac users love, is THAT so hard to understand?

yes... ;)

[polaris20]

See, it all boils down to this ^^^. It's strictly aesthetics over value, and Mac people have such an annoying superiority complex. EVERY other argument falls apart under scrutiny, to the point where every single Mac user eventually falls over and just says "It's just different okay, why don't you understand that, leave me alone, ahhhhh!"

"OS X is infinitely superior to Windows :D:apple::cool:"
Really? Why?
"It just is. :p:rolleyes:;):apple::D" (Why do people on this forum use so many frickin smilies?)

Put a Mac user and PC user side by side and see how much ACTUAL WORK each one can get done. Maybe the Mac is good if all you use is Photoshop, but I have to use anywhere between 30 and 50 different applications every day, and usually have 10 or 12 open simultaneously. "But, but what about all the PC problems, the viruses, the headaches, the tech support???" Yeah, in any given year, that might take up 1/10th of 1% of my time.

And the reason I'm on MacRumors is because I have an iPhone and love it. That's where their design philosophy actually makes sense. Sure, it lacks some basic features and has some annoying Apple-y qualities (like lying about battery life), but what it can do for a portable device still can't be beaten.

Hey, thanks for the the personal anecdotes that mean pretty much nothing. :)

Too bad the majority of the users on this site have no clue what subjectivity is, yourself included.

Why do people like Macs? Because they do. So they buy them. So?

[Sehnsucht]

yes... ;)

You will someday. :D

[Double J]

Why do people like Macs? Because they do. So they buy them. So?

So I don't have a problem with it as long as Mac people don't argue about value or productivity, and don't go "Oh my god Windows is teh suxor, how could you use that unbelievable pile of ****, my Mac soooooo amazing and beautiful and perfect I'm going to go have sex with it right now :cool::eek::D:o:apple::apple::apple::apple::apple:;):rolleyes::cool::D:o:apple::p!"

[NT1440]

So I don't have a problem with it as long as Mac people don't argue about value or productivity, and don't go "Oh my god Windows is teh suxor, how could you use that unbelievable pile of ****, my Mac soooooo amazing and beautiful and perfect I'm going to go have sex with it right now :cool::eek::D:o:apple::apple::apple::apple::apple:;):rolleyes::cool::D:o:apple::p!"

And how many people in real life have come up to you and done that?

Thats not because they are a mac user, its because they are just an opinionated douchebag. Very few people in real life walk up to others for no reason just to tout their stuff.

[4D4M]

And the reason I'm on MacRumors is because I have an iPhone and love it.

Yeah shhuuuuurre it is. And you accidentally strayed on to the Mac related discussions, multiple times, I suppose?

You have no interest in Macs other than to bash them, so your reason for being here is very obvious to everyone.

We prefer Macs, and people like you aren't going to change our minds, so why waste your time?

[BongoBanger]

I bought my Macbook because of the hardware and the multitouch trackpad which is brilliant.

OS X is, in my opinion, no better or worse than Vista on this hardware.

[vipergts2207]

We just find it strange that someone would gladly pay twice as much for the same thing. Why is that so hard to understand?

As other's have said it's not the same. Sure, processors and graphics cards might be the same, but what about the little things? The things that differentiate Macs from PC's. Does the HP have a backlit keyboard? What about a nice, large multi-touch trackpad? A magsafe power cord (which by the way, probably saved my laptop twice)? Probably not.

[Solemony]

Totally agree with the Apple comments on Microsoft's laptop hunter ads...

[-hh]

Put a Mac user and PC user side by side and see how much ACTUAL WORK each one can get done. Maybe ...

Easier said than done ... and generally pretty hard to find free references on the Internet that have good objective data. (FWIW, here's one example (http://pfeifferreport.com/Mac_Win_Sample.pdf) that I can't recall seeing before...it uses PPC G5, so its not particularly new, but nevertheless has some interesting measures).


"But, but what about all the PC problems, the viruses, the headaches, the tech support???" Yeah, in any given year, that might take up 1/10th of 1% of my time.

Lucky to be you. I'd kill for a downtime of only 0.001% on my Windows PC, since that's only 2 hours per workyear.

I'm already at ~0.015% downtime for my Windows laptop for this last quarter (roughly 10 hours of downtime)...and none of it was due to hardware; it was all software and nearly all OS.

A good chunk of it were IT disruptions from doing supposedly Urgent "Emergency" patches during the workday, although there was also some mischief from a corrupted NORMAL.DOT in MS-Word this past month too, as well as an airline flight that required 3 reboots which ate up 25% of the laptop's battery.

In general, we have more downtime than we tend to remember, since its in small dribs and drabs and we're not necessarily good at logging the outages.


And the reason I'm on MacRumors is because I have an iPhone and love it. That's where their design philosophy actually makes sense. Sure, it lacks some basic features and has some annoying Apple-y qualities (like lying about battery life), but what it can do for a portable device still can't be beaten.

So while you like the iPhone, this also somewhat sounds like you've perhaps never actually lived with OS X for a couple of months to know if there's factors other than merely productivity measures which may be of interest or value to a consumer..?


-hh

EDIT: nevermind. I see that your account has been banned.

[polaris20]

So I don't have a problem with it as long as Mac people don't argue about value or productivity, and don't go "Oh my god Windows is teh suxor, how could you use that unbelievable pile of ****, my Mac soooooo amazing and beautiful and perfect I'm going to go have sex with it right now :cool::eek::D:o:apple::apple::apple::apple::apple:;):rolleyes::cool::D:o:apple::p!"

If people do that in real life to you, perhaps you should seek employment somewhere else, where people conduct themselves in a more professional manner.

I'm more productive now with OS X than I was running Windows or Linux. My boss still likes Windows better. The web dev is more productive on Ubuntu. See how that works? It's subjective.

Subjectivity refers to a subject's perspective or opinion, particularly feelings, beliefs, and desires.

[kingtj]

This is true, BUT, I still don't really grasp why so many people actually want their main computer to do double-duty as their PVR and "media center"??

A long time ago, I saw all the value in a media center / PVR, but that led me to build a separate computer JUST for that job! As long as I was doing that, it made little sense to spend money with Microsoft for a copy of Windows with media center capabilities in it, when there were far better and more functional solutions with things like "MythTV" for Linux.

(And no, you don't need to know a whole lot about Linux to install one. www.mysettopbox.tv has the Knoppmyth distribution of MythTV all set up as a bootable CD ISO image which will do the whole installation for you rather painlessly.)

I don't want my main computer to have a large part of its drive space taken up with recorded video, or a movie collection. I don't want to watch everything on my computer display either, and I don't want to run a huge video cable across the house from my computer room to my 50" plasma TV in the living room either.

Most people I know who care much about television shows already own some sort of set-top box capable of scheduling and recording programs, too. My AT&T U-Verse service does, and I know DirecTV or Dish Network have PVR receivers as well. A Tivo is another alternative for a stand-alone box, and with a program like Roxio Toast on your Mac, you can xfer recordings over from a Tivo on your home LAN and burn them to DVD.

I use BOTH Windows and Mac systems, and I far prefer OS X. (It's what I use 90% of the time at home these days.) I deal with Windows all day at work, and it's fine for what we need there. We run a lot of specialized software that will never be released in an OS X version, and barely has more than a total userbase of 500-1000 customers for the Windows version either. But I don't find the Mac ads insulting at all. Sure, Windows doesn't completely crash like it did years ago ... but it DOES have problems far more than my Macs do. At work, we constantly have issues with the boss's PC, for example, where the outlook.exe process won't die when he closes out of Outlook. Then when he goes back into it, he's actually running the "engine" for the app TWICE, so it won't let him add new calendar entries anymore or edit contacts, and meeting reminders stop popping up.


Until Apple has something comparable to Media Center I'm sticking with Windows. Windows 7 Media Center has Clear Qam support with fully functional DVR and 2 week program guide that allows me to record shows in much better quality than what Apple wants you to pay for. I'm sorry but Frontrow doesn't even come close to MCE neither do Sagetv, BeyondTV or any thing else for that matter and it's free.
As far as BSOD's I haven't had one since Windows 98 I can't remember the last time windows even froze that's more of a Mac problem than a Windows problem. As far as viruses go I have a very good antivirus program it's called AVG and it's free, but I never leave it running becuase I don't download porn. You guys watch too many commercials Windows Isn't nearly as bad as Apple would have you think. Infact Windows 7 is the 2nd best operating system I've ever used and the best isn't from Apple.
The only people who like the Mac ads are Mac fans, PC owners see these ads as insulting and childish at best. As PC owners they know Windows rarely Freezes or locks up. These ads are meant to keep current customers more than to get PC owners to switch.