Apple Comments on Microsoft's Laptop Hunter Ads

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/04/16/apple-comments-on-microsofts-laptop-hunter-ads/)

Businessweek's Arik Hesseldahl analyzes (http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2009/tc20090415_602968.htm) Microsoft's latest ad campaign "Laptop Hunters". We've highlighted the ads (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/04/10/microsoft-remains-on-offensive-with-apple-tax-report-and-latest-laptop-ad/) here which have generated a massive amount of reader discussion. Hesseldahl rehashes the usual arguments on cost, but also gets a rare comment from Apple's PR department on the new ads. Apple's Bill Evans said of the ads:"A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want .... The one thing that both Apple and Microsoft can agree on is that everyone thinks the Mac is cool. With its great designs and advanced software, nothing matches it at any price."The three ads have generated over 6000 comments here on MacRumors and have also spawned at least one parody ad (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/04/16/laptop-hunters-ad-frank-humor/) offering the same laptop deal to a homeless person ("Frank").

Article Link: Apple Comments on Microsoft's Laptop Hunter Ads (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/04/16/apple-comments-on-microsofts-laptop-hunter-ads/)

[mozadek]

Yup, Macs users are smarter and cooler than pc users.

[polaris20]

The three ads have generated over 6000 comments here on MacRumors and have also spawned at least one parody ad offering the same laptop deal to a homeless person ("Frank").

Yeah, MacRumors loves the comments, even when they venture into the trollish realm. Gotta love that traffic, with accompanying ad revenue! :D

[andrew0122]

I must say that I really do love the parody with "Frank" the homeless guy.

What is this made of plastic?!? I'm poor, but I'm not retarded!

BEST QUOTE EVER!

[bigmc6000]

I must say that I really do love the parody with "Frank" the homeless guy.

What is this made of plastic?!? I'm poor, but I'm not retarded!

BEST QUOTE EVER!

The bad thing is the only Mac under 1k is a plastic one - doh!! Still a great quote tho :)

[awesomebase]

I must say that I really do love the parody with "Frank" the homeless guy.

What is this made of plastic?!? I'm poor, but I'm not retarded!

BEST QUOTE EVER!

I second that!! Pretty hilarious!

[OS X Dude]

I just wish Apple would make stuff with card slots and Blu-ray :( So long as they add them to the lineup then I'm happy :)

[michael.lauden]

Yeah, MacRumors loves the comments, even when they venture into the trollish realm. Gotta love that traffic, with accompanying ad revenue! :D

i was thinking the same thing. go through the 3.0 keynote thread, you will see about 200 useless posts and see MR newbies going to MR regulars just from posting

"mms :)"
"copy and paste :)"


etc.

[Waragainstsleep]

I'm surprised no-one has been making more fun of Micro$oft's newest tagline. Its such an obvious target for mockery:

Micro$oft: Life Without Walls.

But of course if you don't have any walls, then where would you put your Windows?

And some walls are made of Windows:

http://www.coltinfo.co.uk/picture.aspx?PictureID=00000ZO5

(Micro$oft building in Reading, UK).

[BlizzardBomb]

Yup, Macs users are smarter and cooler than pc users.

Isn't that a bit of a childish remark? No wonder PC users see us as snobbish. :o

[talkingfuture]

Handbags at 10 paces for MS and Apple?

[Small White Car]

It IS odd that Microsoft is saying that Macs are cool right in their own ads.

Really, that's the best they can do? Tell people that the other company is "cool" and hope that that somehow makes people like you more? No wonder Apple PR made a rare public quote on this one. They're being served softballs.

[Sky Blue]

Yup, Macs users are smarter and cooler than pc users.

facepalm

[Benguitar]

I personally don't see what the big deal is....


Computers are used as tools, It is the user/buyer's choice in which tool works best for he/she.

I like Macintosh, but I have nothing "against" PC's.. I just find Macintosh to be easier to use.

[mark88]

All this Mac vs PC stuff is lame. Apple started it so they can't complain when MS gives some back.

[Eyedn]

I'm surprised no-one has been making more fun of Micro$oft's newest tagline. Its such an obvious target for mockery:

Micro$oft: Life Without Walls.

But of course if you don't have any walls, then where would you put your Windows?

.

How about a decent FIREWALL, to stop all these viruses.

[Trinity]

PCs make the world move so they don't have to be so bad...

[opeter]

Yup, Macs users are smarter and cooler than pc users.

Isn't that a bit of a childish remark? No wonder PC users see us as snobbish.

Yep, there's the point!

[Lone Deranger]

You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

It IS odd that Microsoft is saying that Macs are cool right in their own ads.

Really, that's the best they can do? Tell people that the other company is "cool" and hope that that somehow makes people like you more? No wonder Apple PR made a rare public quote on this one. They're being served softballs.

[SnowLeopard2008]

All this Mac vs PC stuff is lame. Apple started it so they can't complain when MS gives some back.

Actually, PC users started it. All of the Mac users I've see are innocent people and then there's the PC fanboys always [first to] pick on Mac users and how they suck. I haven't heard one good reason about why Macs suck from any PC fanboy. Oh and saying Macs suck because it just does is not a reason at all, much less a good one.

I don't hate PCs generally, but seeing extreme [PC] fanboys being really biased kind of pisses me off. My friend who has an Alienware computer boasted how his 6K gaming machine can beat a Mac Mini and how [Alienware] supposedly cheaper... (???)

[vansouza]

We humans simply have to fight or argue over something or anything. Race, color, religion computer brand. When I was into PCs it was IBM vs Compaq and on and on ad nauseam ... we fight over anything at all.

[neiltc13]

Actually, PC users started it. All of the Mac users I've see are innocent people and then there's the PC fanboys always [first to] pick on Mac users and how they suck. I haven't heard one good reason about why Macs suck from any PC fanboy. Oh and saying Macs suck because it just does is not a reason at all, much less a good one.

Surely it was Apple itself that "started it" given that they were the ones to launch an ad campaign proclaiming that their Personal Computers were not PCs?

[serpico]

It's the same thing as us car owners talk about which brands are better. You can get that BMW, Mercedes or Audi if you like but the Hyundai does much the same for less. To each their own I say.

[deadworlds]

Actually, PC users started it. All of the Mac users I've see are innocent people and then there's the PC fanboys always [first to] pick on Mac users and how they suck. I haven't heard one good reason about why Macs suck from any PC fanboy. Oh and saying Macs suck because it just does is not a reason at all, much less a good one.

I agree, just the other day i was in class minding my own business when this PC guy next to me starts picking on me and saying how Macs are inferior to PCs. At least I was able to bite my tongue and not say anything back. I just humored him.

[elppa]

Sharp response. Apple is at least consistent in their message. Superior software and hardware was the message Tim Cook drilled home last October.

Churro?

the PC fanboys always [first to] pick on Mac users and how they suck. I haven't heard one good reason about why Macs suck from any PC fanboy. Oh and saying Macs suck because it just does is not a reason at all, much less a good one.

This has been my experience to. If anyone doubts me, read some of the comments on The Register. Most of them speak from a position of ignorance.

[hob]

Superior

I dislike that word, but I think it's probably appropriate...!

[ziggyonice]

AppleInsider sums up (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/04/16/apple_responds_to_microsoft_ads_a_pc_is_no_bargain.html) the best explanation of these attacks so far. The BusinessWeek article explains:

"PC makers in the Windows camp have done everything possible to make their products progressively worse by cutting corners to save pennies per unit and boost sales volume," he wrote. "There's good reason Apple is seeing healthy profits while grabbing market share. It refuses to budge on quality and so charges a higher price. Rather than running ads that seem clever at first but really aren't, the Windows guys ought to take the hint and just build better computers."

[Eraserhead]

The Business Week article is sickeningly pro-Apple however.

[PaperMacWriter]

You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Ummm, why would you want to attract flies:p

I think that Microsoft has failed with this series of ads. They don't keep your attention, they're not interesting, and they don't explain why the heck the people in the commercial get handed a wad of cash at the end of the commercial. I wish Microsoft would let me try this... even though they would tell me it couldn't be a mac, I would just get a crapwad running linux, sell it on ebay and get CASH to spend on a Mac!!!! WOOOO!!!!!
SG :apple:

[OmiKnight52]

I just wish Apple would make stuff with card slots and Blu-ray :( So long as they add them to the lineup then I'm happy :)

Then you'll end up paying way more for blu-ray

[polaris20]

How about a decent FIREWALL, to stop all these viruses.

Firewalls don't protect the user from their own stupidity in Windows, just as it won't in OS X, just as it won't in Linux. You agree to install something, a firewall won't prevent that.

[bigandy]

A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want...

Each to their own, but that statement rings very true for me.

[neiltc13]

Ummm, why would you want to attract flies:p

I think that Microsoft has failed with this series of ads. They don't keep your attention, they're not interesting, and they don't explain why the heck the people in the commercial get handed a wad of cash at the end of the commercial. I wish Microsoft would let me try this... even though they would tell me it couldn't be a mac, I would just get a crapwad running linux, sell it on ebay and get CASH to spend on a Mac!!!! WOOOO!!!!!
SG :apple:

Did you read the note? The ads have generated over 6000 comments on this website alone!

If people are discussing it this much here, just imagine how much discussion there is all over the web and in the world about the ads. They have been immensely successful.

[ziggyonice]

Firewalls don't protect the user from their own stupidity in Windows...

Exactly true. The average PC user is a sucker who looks at price, doesn't know jack about viruses and how to prevent them, and will gladly fork over the $130 to Best Buy to "fix" their computer. Again and again.

[DMann]

I'm surprised no-one has been making more fun of Micro$oft's newest tagline. Its such an obvious target for mockery:

Micro$oft: Life Without Walls.

But of course if you don't have any walls, then where would you put your Windows?

And some walls are made of Windows:

http://www.coltinfo.co.uk/picture.aspx?PictureID=00000ZO5

(Micro$oft building in Reading, UK).

"Life without Walls."
I'm sure this resonates well for the homeless and recent victims of forclosure, especially in this economy.

[polaris20]

Exactly true. The average PC user is a sucker who looks at price, doesn't know jack about viruses and how to prevent them, and will gladly fork over the $130 to Best Buy to "fix" their computer. Again and again.

The same can happen (and already has) for Mac users. Example: iWork '09 illegal torrent worm.

[xDYLANx]

Yay for Apple PR. Killin' it as always...

[hagjohn]

How about a decent FIREWALL, to stop all these viruses.

OS X firewall isn't even enabled by default.

[ziggyonice]

Exactly true. The average PC user is a sucker who looks at price, doesn't know jack about viruses and how to prevent them, and will gladly fork over the $130 to Best Buy to "fix" their computer. Again and again.

The same can happen (and already has) for Mac users. Example: iWork '09 illegal torrent worm.

Keywords: "illegal" and "torrent". The average computer user (Mac or PC) knows neither -- ask a 20 year old college girl what a torrent is, and she'll say, "Sorry, I'm not going into physics." They don't have a clue.

[nagromme]

Apple has completely and utterly won the marketing battle that seemed so daunting for them just a few years back--the battle to convince the masses of the following:

Macs are an option that exists.

Not long ago, the masses of everyday computer buyers didn't see Macs as an option. They didn't know why, they didn't care why... they just know that Windows PCs are what people get. "Just because." These silent people--not the people with vocal opinions for/against Macs--were the majority and still are.

"Just because" doesn't cut it anymore. Even Microsoft is acknowledging that a Mac IS a legitimate option to consider. (Probably not smart on their part!)

That's a huge victory. Macs aren't ignored anymore.

[human5892]

The same can happen (and already has) for Mac users. Example: iWork '09 illegal torrent worm.
I hope you're not comparing a few isolated incidents targeting OSX to the over 1 million (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/186777/malware-in-the-wild-tops-one-million.html) pieces of malware in existence for PC.

Because that would be pretty silly.

[Digital Skunk]

Exactly true. The average PC user is a sucker who looks at price, doesn't know jack about viruses and how to prevent them, and will gladly fork over the $130 to Best Buy to "fix" their computer. Again and again.

Same thing for Mac users who are suckers for paying $1300 for a laptop just to put MS Office and Firefox on it to surf the web.

Of the ones that buy laptop parts with underpowered GFX cards for gaming.

Let's not even start talking about those that have to fork out $1999 for a laptop with a 15" screen.

[DMann]

Exactly true. The average PC user is a sucker who looks at price, doesn't know jack about viruses and how to prevent them, and will gladly fork over the $130 to Best Buy to "fix" their computer. Again and again.

This is known as a structured PC Payment Plan.

OS X firewall isn't even enabled by default.

As if it's necessary.

[Digital Skunk]

"Just because" doesn't cut it anymore. Even Microsoft is acknowledging that a Mac IS a legitimate option to consider. (Probably not smart on their part!)

True, but where the PC still reigns is in customization and plethora of options. Where you can get that 16" laptop HD player for around $1000, or that 11" ultra portable with Blu-Ray, dual HDDs, two USB ports and HDMI weighing in at under 3lbs. Or a tough book.

Apple doesn't want to compete in that market at all, which is fine by many of us, but Apple doesn't cover the PC makers in all fronts.

[nagromme]

Same thing for Mac users who are suckers for paying $1300 for a laptop just to put MS Office and Firefox on it to surf the web.

Of the ones that buy laptop parts with underpowered GFX cards for gaming.

Let's not even start talking about those that have to fork out $1999 for a laptop with a 15" screen.

Two notes on screen size:

* A screen alone does not determine price, and a big screen isn't simply better. Screen size and portability are trade-offs. A 15" powerhouse makes a LOT more sense than something bulkier, for many people.

* Screen size alone doesn't equal screen value: the 17" screen on that cheap PC in the ad is 1440x900, not the same at all as the 1920x1200 on the Mac that "cost too much." For some, 1440x900 is better (bigger pixels, bigger everything, less for the GPU to do). For others, high-def 1920x1200 has value.

True, but where the PC still reigns is in customization and plethora of options. Where you can get that 16" laptop HD player for around $1000, or that 11" ultra portable with Blu-Ray, dual HDDs, two USB ports and HDMI weighing in at under 3lbs.

Agreed. For all the many advantages of OS X, sheer variety of hardware is where Windows comes out way ahead.

Now, a wide selection of Windows hardware that won't meet my needs is not good enough for me--I'd rather have limited selection of machines that DO meet my needs. (And the masses--who don't frequent forums--who just walk into a store to look at 5 laptops don't really care about all that variety either.)

But if my needs were a high-performance gaming tower with some (non-gaming) specs being low-end to keep the price cheap... or a slow, disposable (but ultra-tiny and very cool!) netbook... or a home-made system from raw parts... then I'd be in a bind! Which compromise would I have to pick? I couldn't have it all.

[sahni130]

Life Without Walls..... Life With Viruses And Invaders! :d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

[Digital Skunk]

Two notes on screen size:

* A screen alone does not determine price, and a big screen isn't simply better. Screen size and portability are trade-offs. A 15" powerhouse makes a LOT more sense than something bulkier, for many people.

* Screen size alone doesn't equal screen value: the 17" screen on that cheap PC in the ad is 1440x900, not the same at all as the 1920x1200 on the Mac that "cost too much." For some, 1440x900 is better (bigger pixels, bigger everything, less for the GPU to do). For others, high-def 1920x1200 has value.

I already know this, thanks for posting it for others.

Don't worry, I never meant that post to reflect that. ;)

[Anuba]

Actually, PC users started it.
Umm, no. Steve Jobs started it over two decades ago, before many PC users were even born. In his very first keynote address in 1984 where he introduced the original Macintosh he dissed IBM PCs, and he's been mocking/dissing/ridiculing both PCs and Windows ever since. It's always been a cornerstone in Apple's advertising. "Think Different", "Pentium Toaster", "Switch", "Hi I'm a Mac..."
This type of childish rivalry wasn't even a factor before Jobs came along. Commodore 64 users didn't gang up on Sinclair Spectrum users, Spectrum users didn't taunt Texas Instruments TI/99 users. The Mac community (with Jobs cheerleading in the background) started the whole hatin'-on-another-platform tradition, the Linux community joined in later.

[michael.lauden]

Life Without Walls..... Life With Viruses And Invaders! :d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

yeah no wonder spyware is so popular - you can just walk right in

[applecultvictim]

for a pr guy his response was far from eloquent...he could have done much better...:rolleyes:

"everyone thinks macs are cool"?????

"everyone knows macs are cool" he should have said...

missed opportunity to trash a vapid ad campaign...

[nagromme]

I already know this, thanks for posting it for others.

Don't worry, I never meant that post to reflect that. ;)

I know. I'd been thinking of it though because it seemed odd that the BusinessWeek article didn't mention resolution. (It's the kind of "number spec" that people looking to compare Macs and PCs often seize on :o )

[frogger2020]

Wow, I guess Microsoft must have hit a nerve with their new commercials for Apple to come out and comment! Kudos to Microsoft for having an interesting ad campaign.

[RonCarr]

Well said Bill. That really is all that needs to be said about the ads in my opinion and obviously Apple's as well.

[JayMan8081]

I am surprised that Apple responded to the ads at all, doesn't seem like them at all. As long as Apple is viewed as serious competition for MS they will have ads attacking them. That's the nature of a competitive marketplace.

[nagromme]

Umm, no. Steve Jobs started it over two decades ago, before many PC users were even born. In his very first keynote address in 1984 where he introduced the original Macintosh he dissed IBM PCs, and he's been mocking/dissing/ridiculing both PCs and Windows ever since. It's always been a cornerstone in Apple's advertising. "Think Different", "Pentium Toaster", "Switch", "Hi I'm a Mac..."
This type of childish rivalry wasn't even a factor before Jobs came along. Commodore 64 users didn't gang up on Sinclair Spectrum users, Spectrum users didn't taunt Texas Instruments TI/99 users. The Mac community (with Jobs cheerleading in the background) started the whole hatin'-on-another-platform tradition, the Linux community joined in later.

I wish I could agree. I wish I could say I never saw Commodore 64 vs. Apple II platform wars :o

Nobody "started" this... it's human nature to find sides to take (look at sports, cars, you name it). With computers, at least you're taking sides about something that has an actual huge affect on many aspects of your life :)

I am surprised that Apple responded to the ads at all, doesn't seem like them at all. As long as Apple is viewed as serious competition for MS they will have ads attacking them. That's the nature of a competitive marketplace.

It wasn't an "Apple response" per se... not something that they spent time/money/PR on... it's just a comment in an interview.

[applecultvictim]

This type of childish rivalry wasn't even a factor before Jobs came along. Commodore 64 users didn't gang up on Sinclair Spectrum users, Spectrum users didn't taunt Texas Instruments TI/99 users. The Mac community (with Jobs cheerleading in the background) started the whole hatin'-on-another-platform tradition, the Linux community joined in later.

Steve jobs didn't invent rivalry between opossing brands/teams/countries/states/peoples...as long as people choose something to differentiate themselves they split into camps with rivalry. It just wasn't as pronounced at the beginning because not enought people used computers. Steve didn't invent it, he just banked on it. ;)

[Digital Skunk]

Agreed. For all the many advantages of OS X, sheer variety of hardware is where Windows comes out way ahead.

Now, a wide selection of Windows hardware that won't meet my needs is not good enough for me--I'd rather have limited selection of machines that DO meet my needs. (And the masses--who don't frequent forums--who just walk into a store to look at 5 laptops don't really care about all that variety either.)

But if my needs were a high-performance gaming tower with some (non-gaming) specs being low-end to keep the price cheap... or a slow, disposable (but ultra-tiny and very cool!) netbook... or a home-made system from raw parts... then I'd be in a bind! Which compromise would I have to pick? I couldn't have it all.

Awesomely true. And that's where the compromises have to be made.

I am in the same boat, where the software keeps me coming back. The service is pretty cool too as well. I am fine with the MBP and Mac Pro, the wife can be served by the Macbook and iMac (which I may bash now and then but do love).

But I know a guy how is an extreme wilderness nut who loves Macs, and he dreams of the day OSX will run on a toughbook or Apple makes one.

I myself dream of those 11.1" Sony's. They start at $2100 but that size is immaculate. Or that HP Firebird gaming rig. Not that I can't have them, just that I don't want to deal with paying that much for Windows running machines. When I have the time, I will give Ubuntu a real look.

The hardware we Mac users do pass up saddens me at times. But yes, I am reminded of the sacrifice every time I go from Aperture to iWeb to Mobile Me.

I know. I'd been thinking of it though because it seemed odd that the BusinessWeek article didn't mention resolution. (It's the kind of "number spec" that people looking to compare Macs and PCs often seize on :o )

Right. Detailed specs are often lost in the sauce with poor comparisons. With the abundance of Dell vs ACD threads members still don't understand the difference between TN, IPS, PVA panels.

[Darth.Titan]

What kills me about these ads is the fact that Microsoft is a software company. Their product is an operating system. Why are they taking credit for the price and quality of other companies' hardware?

If an alternative OS showed up and bypassed Windows in popularity and marketshare, does Microsoft think that any of these computer manufacturers would show them any loyalty at all? These are not "Windows PCs" after all. These are "PCs that have Windows installed". In fact most (if not all) of these companies do offer alternative OS options other than Windows.

I understand that when someone chooses a computer other than a Mac they are 99% sure to be buying Windows with it, but it just kind of irks me a bit when these commercials seem to be Microsoft taking credit for hardware that they have nothing to do with, save mere compatibility.

[DougB541]

Some people like PC's
Some people like Mac's
Even fewer people like Linux


World keeps on spinning. The only thing in his statement that is "eh?" is the PC doesn't' do what you want.

The vast majority of consumers just listen to music, surf the internet and maybe use Office.


I think a PC can handle that just fine.

[DougB541]

What kills me about these ads is the fact that Microsoft is a software company. Their product is an operating system. Why are they taking credit for the price and quality of other companies' hardware?

If an alternative OS showed up and bypassed Windows in popularity and marketshare, does Microsoft think that any of these computer manufacturers would show them any loyalty at all? These are not "Windows PCs" after all. These are "PCs that have Windows installed". In fact most (if not all) of these companies do offer alternative OS options other than Windows.

I understand that when someone chooses a computer other than a Mac they are 99% sure to be buying Windows with it, but it just kind of irks me a bit when these commercials seem to be Microsoft taking credit for hardware that they have nothing to do with, save mere compatibility.

Microsoft works very closely with their partners. These are HP ads as much as they are Microsoft ads.

[ziggyonice]

What kills me about these ads is the fact that Microsoft is a software company. Their product is an operating system. Why are they taking credit for the price and quality of other companies' hardware?


Because the companies who sell those computers aren't doing a good enough job convincing people to buy their machines, which run Windows, which in turn, affects Microsoft's bottom line.

[DougB541]

Because the companies who sell those computers aren't doing a good enough job convincing people to buy their machines, which run Windows, which in turn, affects Microsoft's bottom line.

Better way of putting it than my post.

I did think HP's "hands" commercials were great but I cant' recall what theirs or Dell's ads are currently.

[kingtj]

Yes, ultimately you're correct. Computers are just tools, and people should buy and use whatever works best for them.

But the "big deal" here is really the same old "fight" we've seen since the beginning of the personal computer. If you choose a specific platform/OS, you're at an advantage if you can get as many OTHER people as possible to use the same one. Then you have contacts who can help you troubleshoot issues, swap software or even peripherals with, and that much larger of a user-base that motivates people to develop for YOUR system instead of another one.

I can remember the days (1980's) when some people chose a Tandy/Radio-Shack branded machine, some chose a Commodore, and others went with an Atari, or maybe a Texas Instruments, or ?? ALL of them constantly harassed the others with a "my computer is better than yours" argument!

When there are choices, people enjoy feeling like they chose the "best" option, and conversely, feel threatened when another party makes good enough arguments AGAINST their choice that they start questioning it.


I personally don't see what the big deal is....

Computers are used as tools, It is the user/buyer's choice in which tool works best for he/she.

I like Macintosh, but I have nothing "against" PC's.. I just find Macintosh to be easier to use.

[nagromme]

...

I myself dream of those 11.1" Sony's. They start at $2100 but that size is immaculate. Or that HP Firebird gaming rig. Not that I can't have them, just that I don't want to deal with paying that much for Windows running machines. When I have the time, I will give Ubuntu a real look.

...

11"... 10"... maybe smaller? I would LOVE a tiny Mac OS netbook. I can't say I need one (my Air is ultraportable, and has a screen big enough for production work). But I WANT one :)

I don't NEED any Macs that don't exist, but I do WANT more variety than Apple has. The light at the end of the tunnel: the more Mac sales climb, the more it makes sense to offer a wider variety of models. (Which we have seen happening: the Mini, the Air and the Xserve being examples. Segments Apple did not always address... and now they do. Minitowers? Netbooks? Low-end systems with swappable GPUs? In time, you never know.)

Some people like PC's
Some people like Mac's
Even fewer people like Linux


World keeps on spinning. The only thing in his statement that is "eh?" is the PC doesn't' do what you want.

The vast majority of consumers just listen to music, surf the internet and maybe use Office.


I think a PC can handle that just fine.

And yet I have very tech-savvy friends who do only those things... and are constantly fending off driver conflicts, mystery crashes, malware--who knows what--with Windows. A couple of them switched to Mac a year ago and haven't had any such problems any more. (Macs aren't problem-free, but they have FEWER problems, and easier to diagnose. That trend is real.)

[Digital Skunk]

.....

Also because the OS is nothing without the computer.

MS couldn't just say some guy went out and needed a new OS to put on their "NAMELESS MACHINE"

Then compared Windows and OSX alone.

Plus, one major benefit for PC makers is the lack of R&D on the OS. They don't have to spend any cash on developing an OS, and save money on producing the machines.

[polaris20]

Keywords: "illegal" and "torrent". The average computer user (Mac or PC) knows neither -- ask a 20 year old college girl what a torrent is, and she'll say, "Sorry, I'm not going into physics." They don't have a clue.

You don't think a college student knows what a torrent is? Really? Have you not read the news lately?

I hope you're not comparing a few isolated incidents targeting OSX to the over 1 million (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/186777/malware-in-the-wild-tops-one-million.html) pieces of malware in existence for PC.

Because that would be pretty silly.

Did you read what I quoted? I said "can" and "has" happened. Did I say it's on the same level of magnitude? No.

Of course it's not, because the market share is massively different, and therefore OS X isn't targeted anywhere near as much. It doesn't mean it's not possible.

[JoeDRC]

I find mac users more cringe worthy to be honest, well the ones that think they know about computers

[Darth.Titan]

Microsoft works very closely with their partners. These are HP ads as much as they are Microsoft ads.

I think it's more like Microsoft throwing them a bone after screwing their "partners" on Windows licenses for all these years. Jeez I can't even get a Windows machine with a real OS restore disc these days...

[DMann]

I think it's more like Microsoft throwing them a bone after screwing their "partners" on Windows licenses for all these years. Jeez I can't even get a Windows machine with a real OS restore disc these days...

Exactly. Screwing is a mild way of putting it, however.

[Winni]

A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want .... The one thing that both Apple and Microsoft can agree on is that everyone thinks the Mac is cool. With its great designs and advanced software, nothing matches it at any price.

Aha. Yep. Sure. Great designs and advanced software. Ahem. I had to buy Aperture to get something that's actually useful and not a toy like iPhoto. And that pretty much ends the entire iLife discussion for me -- on my Macs, iLife is about as useful for me as all that demo-ware that comes on an average grocery store PC.

Most of that "advanced" software this guy is talking about is actually a waste of space on the hard disk.

Putting a full version of iWork on a new Mac would be more useful for many people - especially for those who use their computer for boring stuff like real work. And even better than iWork would be a fully working version of Microsoft Office - after all, that is the de facto standard.

Or is he talking about OS X? You know, the consumer OS that falls short in almost every regard when you want to deploy it in an enterprise environment.

Or is he talking about Apple NOT providing on-site warranty like the rest of the big PC companies?

No. He's just getting paid to tell the fans the same old catchphrases again so that they keep donating their money to the Holy Church of Apple for the next "amazing, awesome, patented product that will totally change the way of how you think of whatever". And at the end of the day, it's just another buggy mp3 player, a cell phone that lacks basic features (copy & paste, anyone?) or another computer that still needs an additional Windows license for most customers to become useful - or compatible.

Sorry, folks, but I've been in the industry way too long (since the early 1980s) and I'm sick of tired of all that "Hooray!" crap, no matter from which "fraction" it comes. Apple is nice for the home office, but they completely suck in a business environment. Apple also sucks for gamers and for a lot of other typical consumer things as well (digital video-recording, for example). On the other hand, there are very good reasons why Dell, HP and IBM "own" the corporate hardware market and why Microsoft is and will remain the #1 provider of software platforms - for both the enterprise AND consumers. Those guys sell excellent SERVICE and VERSATILE solutions at extremely competitive prices. No, they don't sell designs. And they don't sell dreams, either. That's the business Apple is in.

[miggitymac]

Apple should be careful here....they're in danger of losing a portion of their target market...because the minute old people start saying something is "cool", it immediately becomes "so not cool" to young people...:p:D

[EagerDragon]

You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Don't Much cared for flies, but I get your point, LOL

[ProstheticHead]

Same thing for Mac users who are suckers for paying $1300 for a laptop just to put MS Office and Firefox on it to surf the web.

Of the ones that buy laptop parts with underpowered GFX cards for gaming.

Let's not even start talking about those that have to fork out $1999 for a laptop with a 15" screen.

Sounds like somebody can't afford an MBP. ;)

[Anuba]

Steve didn't invent it
No, but he was one of the few to stoop to this level when communicating with the public (through ads, interviews, keynote addresses etc). I'm sure that the CEO of Audi badmouths BMW products in private, but to get up on a soapbox and do the same thing is unthinkable because it's unbecoming, unprofessional and immature. It's an expression of envy and insecurity, which is uninversally perceived as pathetic, and the last thing you want is for your business to look pathetic. I can see why he was once ousted from his own company because he was too erratic and temperamental. Brilliant, sure, but immature and unprofessional (at least back then... everyone grows up eventually).

[Eidorian]

My computers regardless of their operating system or manufacturer still continue to work.

[russellb]

It IS odd that Microsoft is saying that Macs are cool right in their own ads.

Really, that's the best they can do? Tell people that the other company is "cool" and hope that that somehow makes people like you more? No wonder Apple PR made a rare public quote on this one. They're being served softballs.

No it's not really strange. Basically Microsoft know they cant fight Apple on the "cool" factor so why not run adds that grab people attention and say hey we know Macs are cool BUT !

That way they get the punters thinking for a second that if the statement about macs being cool is correct then maybe the rest of the add has some merit.

But that aside , pretty stupid of microsoft to be promoting that fact as they dont have a hope in hell of building anything that actually functions as a better user experience than a Mac.

[ziggyonice]

You don't think a college student knows what a torrent is? Really? Have you not read the news lately?

I work on a very large college campus. I help hundreds of college students with their computers each day. I can tell you, without a doubt in my mind, the average college student doesn't know what a torrent is. The geeks do, yes. The average college student? No.

You can't say that Mac users need to be concerned with their security based on the idea that the one dreaded "iWork '09 torrent trojan" is going to be a game changer in the Mac vs. PC argument. Again, the average computer user (Mac or PC) doesn't even know what a torrent is. The geeks do, yes. The average computer user? No.

Macs remain more secure than Windows based PCs.

[TennisandMusic]

Aha. Yep. Sure. Great designs and advanced software. Ahem. I had to buy Aperture to get something that's actually useful and not a toy like iPhoto. And that pretty much ends the entire iLife discussion for me -- on my Macs, iLife is about as useful for me as all that demo-ware that comes on an average grocery store PC.

Most of that "advanced" software this guy is talking about is actually a waste of space on the hard disk.

Putting a full version of iWork on a new Mac would be more useful for many people - especially for those who use their computer for boring stuff like real work. And even better than iWork would be a fully working version of Microsoft Office - after all, that is the de facto standard.

Or is he talking about OS X? You know, the consumer OS that falls short in almost every regard when you want to deploy it in an enterprise environment.

Or is he talking about Apple NOT providing on-site warranty like the rest of the big PC companies?

No. He's just getting paid to tell the fans the same old catchphrases again so that they keep donating their money to the Holy Church of Apple for the next "amazing, awesome, patented product that will totally change the way of how you think of whatever". And at the end of the day, it's just another buggy mp3 player, a cell phone that lacks basic features (copy & paste, anyone?) or another computer that still needs an additional Windows license for most customers to become useful - or compatible.

Sorry, folks, but I've been in the industry way too long (since the early 1980s) and I'm sick of tired of all that "Hooray!" crap, no matter from which "fraction" it comes. Apple is nice for the home office, but they completely suck in a business environment. Apple also sucks for gamers and for a lot of other typical consumer things as well (digital video-recording, for example). On the other hand, there are very good reasons why Dell, HP and IBM "own" the corporate hardware market and why Microsoft is and will remain the #1 provider of software platforms - for both the enterprise AND consumers. Those guys sell excellent SERVICE and VERSATILE solutions at extremely competitive prices. No, they don't sell designs. And they don't sell dreams, either. That's the business Apple is in.

As a user of both, and someone who just doesn't care about all of this, it's good to see someone else "gets it." Some of the comments in here are completely asinine.

Also, unless Apple has something up their sleeve with Snow Leopard, they should be terrified of Windows 7. In my opinion, it kills OSX. Using my mac has become painful.

[miggitymac]

But that aside , pretty stupid of microsoft to be promoting that fact as they dont have a hope in hell of building anything that actually functions as a better user experience than a Mac.

Also, unless Apple has something up their sleeve with Snow Leopard, they should be terrified of Windows 7. In my opinion, it kills OSX. Using my mac has become painful.

I was just about to say to russellb: Enter Windows 7.

[applecultvictim]

It's an expression of envy and insecurity, which is uninversally perceived as pathetic, and the last thing you want is for your business to look pathetic. I can see why he was once ousted from his own company because he was too erratic and temperamental. Brilliant, sure, but immature and unprofessional (at least back then... everyone grows up eventually).
In an area such as geekdome and the computer industry full of immaturity, I think it's very mature to bank on this dynamic. Plus it's fun to me, don't take it so seriously.

[Anuba]

Also, unless Apple has something up their sleeve with Snow Leopard, they should be terrified of Windows 7. In my opinion, it kills OSX. Using my mac has become painful.
The new taskbar is quite the game changer, yeah... though Win7 still hurts my eyes, like Vista did, like XP did. Too many jarring color combinations (typically green/blue). If MS would only realize that the OS is supposed to be in the background, not the foreground, their products would be much better.

[Winni]

(Macs aren't problem-free, but they have FEWER problems, and easier to diagnose. That trend is real.)

No, it's not. It's a very subjective statement.

Macs have fewer problems? Really? You cannot even properly debug most Apple problems, because the software does not even give you a descriptive error message.

Connect half a dozen or more external hard disks to ANY Mac via FireWire and/or USB and then tell me why sooner or later the Mac won't find its boot volume anymore. Without ANY error message, of course. Just a folder symbol with a question mark on the screen. Very helpful. For me, this has been a real issue for four years now on more than just one Mac.

Issues like the OS X 10.5 retail DVD being unable to boot on a Mac Pro with an nVidia 8800GT graphics card are also very real. If you don't know that you have to use a 10.5.2 DVD, you're really screwed. And if you've bought a Family Box of 10.5 and -do- know about that issue, you're still screwed because you have to purchase a new DVD from Apple because your marvelous Protection Plan won't help you here.

To make a long story full of anecdotal evidence short and simple: Among other things, I troubleshoot computers for a living - no matter what brand or OS. Open Source products are great here because they are, well, OPEN. On the other hand, Open Source products are the worst nightmare because they actually need MUCH more troubleshooting than any commercial product that I know. But when it comes to the old battle between Macs on OS X and PCs on Windows, I pick the Windows-side of things any day. As long as the Mac works, it provides a much nicer user experience. But when it stops working - and like any other machine that's really being used, it rather sooner than later WILL stop working - it's a bitch to troubleshoot.

[DMann]

pretty stupid of microsoft to be promoting that fact as they dont have a hope in hell of building anything that actually functions as a better user experience than a Mac. For this, they ought to be commended for their honesty.

[polaris20]

I work on a very large college campus. I help hundreds of college students with their computers each day. I can tell you, without a doubt in my mind, the average college student doesn't know what a torrent is. The geeks do, yes. The average college student? No.

You can't say that Mac users need to be concerned with their security based on the idea that the one dreaded "iWork '09 torrent trojan" is going to be a game changer in the Mac vs. PC argument. Again, the average computer user (Mac or PC) doesn't even know what a torrent is. The geeks do, yes. The average computer user? No.

Macs remain more secure than Windows based PCs.

Uh oh, personal anecdote time. You work on A college campus. That's a very scientific survey of students across the country. :rolleyes:

Much has been made of the use of torrents and P2P for music and movie downloads in terms of lawsuits. You don't think these same people are using it for software?

And again, the example I gave is just that; an example it can be done. Whether or not it will be done on a larger scale depends on Apple's ability to grow its marketshare coupled with the profitability for malware writers.

The Pwn2Own contest alone shows that OS X is not more secure than Windows, but merely has less malware written for it because of such a sliver of marketshare. No money in it.

[Anuba]

In an area such as geekdome and the computer industry full of immaturity, I think it's very mature to bank on this dynamic. Plus it's fun to me, don't take it so seriously.
I don't, but Steve does. Look at all those old clips where he disses everything non-Mac in general and Microsoft in particular, his eyes begin to emit a faint red glow and you can see smoke coming out of his ears.

[dokein]

I can tell you, without a doubt in my mind, the average college student doesn't know what a torrent is. The geeks do, yes. The average college student? No.

You can't say that Mac users need to be concerned with their security based on the idea that the one dreaded "iWork '09 torrent trojan" is going to be a game changer in the Mac vs. PC argument.

On the other hand, I think it is safe to say the average college student can tell you what a trojan is. And not just the Classic Civ majors.

But they won't be talking about computers.

[Eidorian]

No, it's not. It's a very subjective statement.

Macs have fewer problems? Really? You cannot even properly debug most Apple problems, because the software does not even give you a descriptive error message.

Connect half a dozen or more external hard disks to ANY Mac via FireWire and/or USB and then tell me why sooner or later the Mac won't find its boot volume anymore. Without ANY error message, of course. Just a folder symbol with a question mark on the screen. Very helpful. For me, this has been a real issue for four years now on more than just one Mac.

Issues like the OS X 10.5 retail DVD being unable to boot on a Mac Pro with an nVidia 8800GT graphics card are also very real. If you don't know that you have to use a 10.5.2 DVD, you're really screwed. And if you've bought a Family Box of 10.5 and -do- know about that issue, you're still screwed because you have to purchase a new DVD from Apple because your marvelous Protection Plan won't help you here.

To make a long story full of anecdotal evidence short and simple: Among other things, I troubleshoot computers for a living - no matter what brand or OS. Open Source products are great here because they are, well, OPEN. On the other hand, Open Source products are the worst nightmare because they actually need MUCH more troubleshooting than any commercial product that I know. But when it comes to the old battle between Macs on OS X and PCs on Windows, I pick the Windows-side of things any day. As long as the Mac works, it provides a much nicer user experience. But when it stops working - and like any other machine that's really being used, it rather sooner than later WILL stop working - it's a bitch to troubleshoot.After reading your post I'm starting to believe my Windows using peers on the learning curve to diagnosing OS X and Apple hardware problems. The ridiculous number of details, even limited to just one model, that I've picked up over the years.

[Mal]

Aha. Yep. Sure. Great designs and advanced software. Ahem. I had to buy Aperture to get something that's actually useful and not a toy like iPhoto. And that pretty much ends the entire iLife discussion for me -- on my Macs, iLife is about as useful for me as all that demo-ware that comes on an average grocery store PC.

Not going to bother with the whole post of this drivel, but seriously... want to actually back up statements about iPhoto being just a toy, etc? I use iPhoto constantly. It's an incredible piece of software and does more than most PC software programs can dream of for your pictures. The rest of iLife is almost all used on a daily basis by either myself or by people I know (I don't have a video camera, so I don't use either iMovie or iDVD, but I know a number of people who would be lost without either or both, just as an example). Sounds like you've got something against software for normal people.

Sure, if you've got something like a professional digital SLR camera and you're shooting in RAW, you're going to need Aperture. Short of that, iPhoto will handle anything the average person would need and beyond. Same can be said of everything that comes on the Mac. It'd be nice to have iWork included too, but when was the last time you saw a PC loaded with Office? It's more and more rare now, because companies are trying to drop prices so they eliminate extra features that not everyone needs/wants in order to lower their costs. In Apple's case, they probably could throw in iWork still, but it's only $50 with a new computer now, and only $80 after the fact, which wipes the floor with Office, so why would they feel any need to do so? Besides, anyone who really needed Office would just find iWork preloaded to be a waste of space and money, so then you'd have the same complaints from some other camp.

Get a grip, dude.

jW

[synth3tik]

Bill should keep his mouth shut.

Apple is no bargain, and honestly OS X works the same amount of time as Windows. The one thing is at least with my Macs I am over charged for cheap components.

What is the difference between Apple and other computer manufacturers?

Apple gets more revenue per unit. The end user only sees a higher price for that.

About a year ago or so I made the decision not to buy any more Apple hardware new. Don't get me wrong I love OS X, but the computers don't even come close to worth it.

[twoodcc]

not a great response really. where's a new mac vs pc ad?

[applecultvictim]

I don't, but Steve does. Look at all those old clips where he disses everything non-Mac in general and Microsoft in particular, his eyes begin to emit a faint red glow and you can see smoke coming out of his ears.

he's a bit of a psycho that way lol, but that's part of his charm, how committed he is.

[BongoBanger]

That was Apple's reply?

Talk about digging an even bigger hole for themselves.

[AppleG]

Whichever way you may think, pcs may be cheap but they do the job right if you use it in a proper way. Just think about it it's just like a car if you take care of it it will last for a long time. Don't get me wrong here i'm on both sides when it comes to computers... although i still think apple is a little bit more innovative :):D

[Penguinwrangler]

Apple has completely and utterly won the marketing battle that seemed so daunting for them just a few years back--the battle to convince the masses of the following:

Macs are an option that exists.


This is what it's been about for YEARS. How quickly people forget how close Apple came to the brink, and how it was the combination of the iPod and the iMac that saved them, not the iMac alone.


And, also, Windows 7 IS a very clean looking OS. Too bad they're going to license it to a bunch of idiots who are going to install it on horribly built machines and then fill it full of bloatware. I'll continue to dual-boot, thanks.

[Anuba]

That was Apple's reply?

Talk about digging an even bigger hole for themselves.
I don't think it should be taken as the official response... sounds more like they got hold of some intern who uttered a couple of sentences before he realized he was in way over his head.

[diogossb]

My thoughts: Microsoft's recent ads clearly show that Microsoft doesn't know what they can say for people to stop leaving Windows. What they say is: "Ok macs may be better, but we are cheaper" , and this is not the best marketing strategy as i see it, and this is what i thought when i saw the ads.

Now, Apple on the other hand, clearly says what they wanna do: We want to increase our sales by being better than the others, not by being cheaper.

This is way i am buying 13.3 macbook tomorrow and i already had an iMac before. FOR ME, they do make better products has they advertise.
I can give you some examples, a member of my family has a macbook, and the thing which most liked about it and actually used it, was the trackpad. I never liked the other laptops trackpads, if i want to scroll down i have to use that side thing which doesn't work most of the times, now on the mac i drop two fingers and there it is. Another example, doing network sharing using a mac is the most easiest thing on Earth, you go to a finder window and the computers in your network automatically appear on the sidebar. This is brilliant. If i try to share files between Windows XP and Vista... well i never got it to work lol.

So to conclude: People, please stop making these "i am better than you" wars because in the end, everyone buys what they thinks it is best for them, and both brands' ads try to atract the costumer to their side, but personaly i think Apple is doing a better job here.

[synth3tik]

I don't think it should be taken as the official response... sounds more like they got hold of some intern who uttered a couple of sentences before he realized he was in way over his head.

Evan's no intern.

[ziggyonice]

That was Apple's reply?

Talk about digging an even bigger hole for themselves.

It wasn't their reply. It was just a two-sentence comment a PR rep. told during an interview. A "reply" would be much bigger than this. This is really just "Page 2" news.

[Morod]

PCs make the world move so they don't have to be so bad...

You've obviously never been dependent on MS boxes in a work environment. I was in the engineering dep't of a broadcast TV station where our signal was run through a plethora of Windows computers (due to the digital transition). What a nightmare!
I'm not saying OS X would've handled the situation better, but it sure couldn't have handled it any worse....
Morod

[lunarworks]

Actually, PC users started it. All of the Mac users I've see are innocent people and then there's the PC fanboys always [first to] pick on Mac users and how they suck. I haven't heard one good reason about why Macs suck from any PC fanboy. Oh and saying Macs suck because it just does is not a reason at all, much less a good one.
It used to be MUCH worse. I've been dealing with it since 1993.

Also, at one point there was an overnight hater flop from "Apple sucks because they're not popular" to "Apple sucks because they're too popular".

[iPhoneNYC]

Cool indeed

[rish]

Wow, I guess Microsoft must have hit a nerve with their new commercials for Apple to come out and comment! Kudos to Microsoft for having an interesting ad campaign.

MS ads battering Macs are about as éloquent as a Market stall sales person selling chinks.

MS does not equate to Kudos. The only thing I can think of that fits nicely with MS lock stock and barrel is a block of inner city flats built in the 70's.

[needsomecoffee]

Just read an article that stated something like WinTel is going to die unless they can do something to increase Average Selling Price (and margins).

Recollecting (not exact, but close I'm sure):

ASP for WinTel portables year-over-year is down to $540 from $569 (i.e. lots of net books).

ASP for Apple is down to $1238 from $1250 (not quite sure, but it was $12xx, $12yy something for just a $12 difference).

THAT'S fricking amazing re: Apple in today's economy.

One point of this article is the MSFT's ads are NOT about selling against Mac as much as trying to increase the ASP of WinTel portables (Macs are just an indirect point about why more expensive = better).

It appears no one has picked up on this.

IT IS NOT ABOUT COST OF A MAC.

IT IS ABOUT INCREASING ASP FOR WINTEL PORTABLES.

Apple is benefiting MSFT by providing the means to show people that they should upsell from netbooks to a more expensive portable.

[rwilliams]

For the life of me, I don't get the fanboys on either side. It's a COMPUTER for God's sake. If it does what you need, be happy about it. I'm a recent Mac convert, and I think that OS X and my new MacBook are fantastic. I also happen to think that Windows 7, even in beta form, and the Thinkpad that I sometimes use at work are fantastic as well. Some people on both sides seem to take this all so personally, as if they're on the Board of Directors at these companies. Use what you use and let others be happy with their choices.

[Antares]

Actually, PC users started it. All of the Mac users I've see are innocent people and then there's the PC fanboys always [first to] pick on Mac users and how they suck. I haven't heard one good reason about why Macs suck from any PC fanboy. Oh and saying Macs suck because it just does is not a reason at all, much less a good one.

I don't hate PCs generally, but seeing extreme [PC] fanboys being really biased kind of pisses me off. My friend who has an Alienware computer boasted how his 6K gaming machine can beat a Mac Mini and how [Alienware] supposedly cheaper... (???)

I totally agree. In the 90's I faced this all the time as a Mac user. Not everyone...but many PC users regarded Macs as trash and felt the need to point this out to me without any provocation....or if I even just said "I use a Mac" or "I like Macs." Eventually, I became a Mac Evangelist back then to properly defend my position and to help clear up some of the misconceptions that many PC users had at the time. OSX eventually made my job a lot easier....as did the original iMac. However, the Apple quality was always there throughout the company's history.

Um....that said, I had always wondered why Apple didn't try to fight back against PC fanboys....which is why I was elated once we started seeing the "I'm a Mac" ads. Though....I do have a fold out poster from 1998/99 that has the tagline "It eats Pentium Notebooks for Lunch" and a picture of a Great White shark on the Powerbook's screen.

Anyway, good for Apple in their perfectly appropriate response to MS's new ads.

For the life of me, I don't get the fanboys on either side. It's a COMPUTER for God's sake.

Because, for some people, it's not "just a computer." For a lot of people, it can be an extension of who they are. A computer can symbolize their point of view and reflect their tastes. It can be somethging that they really enjoy and become passonate about.

[inkswamp]

Macs have fewer problems? Really? You cannot even properly debug most Apple problems, because the software does not even give you a descriptive error message.

EPIC FAIL. :rolleyes:

/Applications/Utilities/Console.app

More system-level and application info than you can shake a stick at. Just because Apple has decided not shove cryptic error messages into the user's face at every turn, doesn't mean it's not there for power users. You just have to know where to look. And the Mac system logs are certainly far more descriptive and informative than the Windows system logs. I've dealt with both. Most of the Windows ones leave me scratching my head and having to go to numerous sites just to translate it to intelligible English.

[shadowdigi]

Or is he talking about OS X? You know, the consumer OS that falls short in almost every regard when you want to deploy it in an enterprise environment.

Most of the stuff in that post was crap, but I'd like to single out that one. "almost every regard"?? What exactly do you do for work that Mac fails so epically at it? Play Solitaire all day?

I'd LOVE to see a list of things you need to do every day, seriously. Back that up with some solid facts.

[BongoBanger]

I notice a few car analogies springing up so let's put a few things into perspective.

If you consider Macs to be BMWs then right from the 1 series through to, say, the M6 Convertible you get a good piece of engineering at a premium price. On the other hand you can consider PCs to be Fiats - they range from the cheap and nasty Panda right through to... Ferraris and Maseratis.

The point being that Macs are nice and consistent across the piece whilst PCs range from cheap and less reliable to much more powerful and far more expensive than Macs.

Just so we're all clear and stop the silly comparisons you understand. :)

I don't think it should be taken as the official response... sounds more like they got hold of some intern who uttered a couple of sentences before he realized he was in way over his head.

Good. I suspect the chap in question is being dragged into Tim Cook's office for a good spanking as we speak.

[kasei]

It's the same thing as us car owners talk about which brands are better. You can get that BMW, Mercedes or Audi if you like but the Hyundai does much the same for less. To each their own I say.

Wow that is what I use to tell people when I bought my first PowerBook and they would ask me why did I spend so much money on an Apple. I would tell them it is like buying a BMW or a Buick. Just because BMW doesn't have 90% of the automobile market share doesn't make it a bad car. And just because Buick has a larger market share doesn't make it a great car.

Everyone buys for different reasons.

[Eidorian]

EPIC FAIL. :rolleyes:

/Applications/Utilities/Console.app

More system-level and application info than you can shake a stick at. Just because Apple has decided not shove cryptic error messages into the user's face at every turn, doesn't mean it's not there for power users. You just have to know where to look. And the Mac system logs are certainly far more descriptive and informative than the Windows system logs. I've dealt with both. Most of the Windows ones leave me scratching my head and having to go to numerous sites just to translate it to intelligible English.Except when OS X logs nothing. Which happens more often than I like.

[polaris20]

Aha. Yep. Sure. Great designs and advanced software. Ahem. I had to buy Aperture to get something that's actually useful and not a toy like iPhoto. And that pretty much ends the entire iLife discussion for me -- on my Macs, iLife is about as useful for me as all that demo-ware that comes on an average grocery store PC.

Most of that "advanced" software this guy is talking about is actually a waste of space on the hard disk.

Putting a full version of iWork on a new Mac would be more useful for many people - especially for those who use their computer for boring stuff like real work. And even better than iWork would be a fully working version of Microsoft Office - after all, that is the de facto standard.

Or is he talking about OS X? You know, the consumer OS that falls short in almost every regard when you want to deploy it in an enterprise environment.

Or is he talking about Apple NOT providing on-site warranty like the rest of the big PC companies?

No. He's just getting paid to tell the fans the same old catchphrases again so that they keep donating their money to the Holy Church of Apple for the next "amazing, awesome, patented product that will totally change the way of how you think of whatever". And at the end of the day, it's just another buggy mp3 player, a cell phone that lacks basic features (copy & paste, anyone?) or another computer that still needs an additional Windows license for most customers to become useful - or compatible.

Sorry, folks, but I've been in the industry way too long (since the early 1980s) and I'm sick of tired of all that "Hooray!" crap, no matter from which "fraction" it comes. Apple is nice for the home office, but they completely suck in a business environment. Apple also sucks for gamers and for a lot of other typical consumer things as well (digital video-recording, for example). On the other hand, there are very good reasons why Dell, HP and IBM "own" the corporate hardware market and why Microsoft is and will remain the #1 provider of software platforms - for both the enterprise AND consumers. Those guys sell excellent SERVICE and VERSATILE solutions at extremely competitive prices. No, they don't sell designs. And they don't sell dreams, either. That's the business Apple is in.

You mean PCs aren't washed in unicorn tears?

I'm curious to hear what problems you're having integrating into a corporate environment. Outside of the obvious Windows-only software, I mean. Anything besides that?

[dwd3885]

Well what i like to do is pop in my SD card into my laptop, play a blu-ray movie, do photoshop work, edit videos with premiere, surf the web with Chrome, and listen to music with the Zune software...

Hmmm. How many of those things can a Mac do?

[gnomeisland]

Having been an Apple fan for going on a couple decades I've noticed a pattern in the old PC vs. Mac price war. The arguments aren't new, and the Apple camp has suffered as the Mac has become more and more a glorified PC (this was my biggest concern about the switch to Intel). However, even in the pre-Intel days the trend was usually Apple release something really cool and cutting edge on a machine that when compared to an identically spec'ed PC is either the same price or better. The problem is then Apple sticks to its price while the PC manufacturer's lower their price (usually as the new thing become established and cheaper to manufacture). We are seeing Apple at the end of Intel product cycle of the Penyrn (remember they only use two lines of the Intel procs--the mobile and the Xeon) so there is now a sizable gap in price per spec between Apple and the generic PC. It would pain me to buy an Apple right now--although yes, I would still do it if I were in the market.

As others have pointed out, combine this slump with Windows 7 (haven't used it but I hear good things . . . really good things) and Apple could take a hit this year if they don't either adjust their pricing (never happen) Win7 hits before they get the next sizable tech boost from Intel (Nvidia?).

That said, never underestimate the ability of modern MS to screw up.

[rish]

The Pwn2Own contest alone shows that OS X is not more secure than Windows, but merely has less malware written for it because of such a sliver of marketshare. No money in it.[/QUOTE]

Can clarify you "No money in it". Is that concerning the small Market share or other???

Cheers.

[Anuba]

Another example, doing network sharing using a mac is the most easiest thing on Earth, you go to a finder window and the computers in your network automatically appear on the sidebar.
No! This is the one thing in Leopard that really sucks, it's worse than Tiger. Maybe it finds other Macs easily but that's where it ends.

I have this 1 TB QNAP network drive that does AppleTalk, Samba and WINS, and another one (a Lacie Ethernet BigDisk) which works roughly the same way. In Tiger these were pretty easy to find, a little awkward to mount but at least it worked. In Windows, it's dead easy, you just use the Map Network Drive command and it's permanently mounted as a logical drive. Set and forget. Leopard, however, didn't find the drives at all. It wasn't until I disabled Leopard's firewall completely (secure, huh) that the drives finally showed up in Finder. Now, how the hell do I mount them permanently? I tried googling for an answer, only to find a thousand people asking the same question. Many different solutions were suggested. One was to write a script (yeah, great solution for newbies), which was clunky because the share no longer appears in Finder under its given network nick, but rather "smb://192.160.X.X" (this is the only way to mount the drives without disabling the firewall entirely). Another suggested solution was to create aliases and drag them to Startup Objects under your account settings, which is less clunky but extremely annoying because every time you boot up the system it automatically opens a bunch of cascading Finder windows for the mounted shares. Mounting network shares permanently is easier in a 10 year old version of Windows than it is in Leopard.

[alibomaye]

This is my response to Bill EVans and Farhad Manjoo based on a Yelp! Talk thread I was a part of last week:

http://www.bravenewwave.com/?p=2624

[h.21]

Also, unless Apple has something up their sleeve with Snow Leopard, they should be terrified of Windows 7. In my opinion, it kills OSX. Using my mac has become painful.

Bye. Enjoy your bloatware. You won't be missed.

[crees!]

It was probably already mentioned, so I'll mention it again. I find it interesting that Microsoft is using ads to differentiate price in hardware rather than features between the OSes. Last time I checked Microsoft doesn't make laptops. To me this says Microsoft already knows they lost on the OS front.

Though, someone could argue that Microsoft has a large enough market share in it's OS that focusing there wouldn't be as effective as on hardware prices.

[polaris20]

Can clarify you "No money in it". Is that concerning the small Market share or other???

Cheers.

There's not much monetary incentive for malware writers for a market share that's less than 10%. If you can write malware for something that will have a 90% marketshare audience (conficker) or a sub-10% marketshare, which would you spend the time writing?

[hh83917]

I found these marketing battles very similar to what happened when the iPod was introduced. During that time the mp3 was still fairly new to the consumers. Although the iPod is not the first to enter the market, but they entered with a simple and clean design. They started out as a pricy device and as people started to catch on to this new toy, although pricy, it became an icon for portable audio. After few generations of iPods, it's made better and better, and it was too late for the other mp3 portable device producers to stop the iPod. The other companies tries to differentiate their products, but their marketing was ineffective against the fruit giant.

Eventually, they started to tell consumers, "why get the ipod when you can get something cheaper and works as well?" Every other mp3 device is put on comparison to the iPod as it had became the standard for a portable mp3 device. And I think that is what keeps the iPod on the top of the mp3 battle because many people will think, "hey, if I pay a little more, I could have gotten the iPod, which is cooler and more recognizable."

It's so similar to what is happening now, where the Mac are seems to be in sync with the terms "cool" "designer" "beauty" "ease of use" and the other computer manufacturers are simply telling consumers "you can get the same for cheaper."

[bedifferent]

No! This is the one thing in Leopard that really sucks, it's worse than Tiger. Maybe it finds other Macs easily but that's where it ends.

I have this 1 TB QNAP network drive that does AppleTalk, Samba and WINS, and another one (a Lacie Ethernet BigDisk) which works roughly the same way. In Tiger these were pretty easy to find, a little awkward to mount but at least it worked. In Windows, it's dead easy, you just use the Map Network Drive command and it's permanently mounted as a logical drive. Set and forget. Leopard, however, didn't find the drives at all. It wasn't until I disabled Leopard's firewall completely (secure, huh) that the drives finally showed up in Finder. Now, how the hell do I mount them permanently? I tried googling for an answer, only to find a thousand people asking the same question. Many different solutions were suggested. One was to write a script (yeah, great solution for newbies), which was clunky because the share no longer appears in Finder under its given network nick, but rather "smb://192.160.X.X" (this is the only way to mount the drives without disabling the firewall entirely). Another suggested solution was to create aliases and drag them to Startup Objects under your account settings, which is less clunky but extremely annoying because every time you boot up the system it automatically opens a bunch of cascading Finder windows for the mounted shares. Mounting network shares permanently is easier in a 10 year old version of Windows than it is in Leopard.

Are you still spreading FUD about Mac OS X? First it was a problem with your iMac, something about you forgetting you got AppleCare and not activating it even though when purchased it is already activated, then some bit about the trains to Stockholm, the closest Apple store, being too difficult, and when someone suggested paying for your ticket, oh it was that it was too much bother, then it was your girlfriend uses this iMac that apparently wasn't working, but it works enough for her to surf and email, then it was all your precious documents you need are on your iMac, but yet it's too much of a bother to get to Stockholm as you apparently live 60 minutes away. Now it's Leopard is terrible at mounting Network drives, and paragraphs about this issue.

FUD. Seriously. All you do on MacRumors is spread FUD about Mac OS X. Why are you HERE? Oh, I forgot, you own an iPod, that is "alright", which means you like Apple, and therefore have the right in "correcting people's comments on Windows". :rolleyes:

[Nitro1]

In a response to something said earlier. I have nothing against PC's. I have everything against Microsoft and the crap software they make. I love in the Frank parody how he says the virus software is crap. Hilarious.

I love my mac. Not because it is expensive or shiny but because it is the most stable platform and is an amazing piece of machinery.

[Anuba]

It was probably already mentioned, so I'll mention it again. I find it interesting that Microsoft is using ads to differentiate price in hardware rather than features between the OSes. Last time I checked Microsoft doesn't make laptops. To me this says Microsoft already knows they lost on the OS front.

Though, someone could argue that Microsoft has a large enough market share in it's OS that focusing there wouldn't be as effective as on hardware prices.
It would make little sense to advertise the OS at this point since Vista is on the verge of being retired and Windows 7 will be rolled out in a couple of weeks. They plan to make the release candidate available as a free download, and this time there'll be unlimited downloads (the Vista betas and RCs were limited releases), and the RC won't expire until after the RTM version is available in stores, so basically the Win7 transition is imminent.

Even though MS doesn't make hardware (well, apart from gaming consoles, mice, keyboards etc), each PC sold means one copy of Windows sold, which cannot be said about every Mac sold. I think it's pretty clear for everyone who isn't hell bent on picking the ad apart in molecules.

[Anuba]

Are you still spreading FUD about Mac OS X?:
Are you still brainwashed? Wait... why ask.

Rather than dismiss it as FUD you could've explained how dead simple it is to mount network drives permanently in Leopard in less than three clicks, but you can't, so instead you switched to spreading FUD about me. Nice job.

[bedifferent]

Are you still brainwashed? Wait... why ask.

Rather than dismiss it as FUD you could've explained how dead simple it is to mount network drives permanently in Leopard in less than three clicks, but you can't, so instead you switched to spreading FUD about me. Nice job.

I don't have the "issues" you are apparently are so concerned with spreading to everyone on MacRumors. It's not FUD about you when it's been stated BY you in numerous threads, such as the two previous Windows/HP ad discussions.

Now shoo. I'm done with you. :rolleyes:

[polaris20]

It would make little sense to advertise the OS at this point since Vista is on the verge of being retired and Windows 7 will be rolled out in a couple of weeks. They plan to make the release candidate available as a free download, and this time there'll be unlimited downloads (the Vista betas and RCs were limited releases), and the RC won't expire until after the RTM version is available in stores, so basically the Win7 transition is imminent.

Even though MS doesn't make hardware (well, apart from gaming consoles, mice, keyboards etc), each PC sold means one copy of Windows sold, which cannot be said about every Mac sold. I think it's pretty clear for everyone who isn't hell bent on picking the ad apart in molecules.

Windows 7 RC is being released in a couple weeks, not the final version. I'm not sure if that's what you mean or not. No one outside MS knows for sure when it will be finally released. RC will be good until May 2010, at which time it will expire.

[BongoBanger]

Are you still spreading FUD about Mac OS X?

Uh, the drive mounting issue is a known Leopard problem. You might want to consider that before you accuse others of FUD.

[polaris20]

Uh, the drive mounting issue is a known Leopard problem. You might want to consider that before you accuse others of FUD.

It's not 100% always the case either though. I never have issues either on my machine or any of the machines I support.

[dwd3885]

In a response to something said earlier. I have nothing against PC's. I have everything against Microsoft and the crap software they make. I love in the Frank parody how he says the virus software is crap. Hilarious.

I love my mac. Not because it is expensive or shiny but because it is the most stable platform and is an amazing piece of machinery.

I have a Vista and OSX computer and have more memory leaks, hangs, etc on my Macbook Pro than on my Vista computer by far.

Office is really good, as is Live Photo Gallery, Zune 3.0, Windows Media Player, etc. Microsoft makes good software. But hey, if you don't like it, no big deal.

[bedifferent]

Uh, the drive mounting issue is a known Leopard problem. You might want to consider that before you accuse others of FUD.

Never seen, or had it. Given Anuba's history on MacRumors, it's difficult in taking what he states as truth.

[BongoBanger]

It's not 100% always the case either though. I never have issues either on my machine or any of the machines I support.

True. It's one of those inconsistent annoyances that are a bit bothersome about Leopard. This one and the Airport connectivity issue are probably the most annoying.

OS X does a lot of things easier than Vista. Just not those two.

[rish]

It's not 100% always the case either though. I never have issues either on my machine or any of the machines I support.

Yeh but how much of you having no problems at all are linked in to you being Clued Up?

The ones that know diddly squat are the ones that often have all the problems IMO!

[Diaresi]

The ones that know diddly squat are the ones that often have all the problems IMO!

And you wonder why people get all this malware on PCs?

[pt13]

Its great that Microsoft admits that they have to pay people to buy their products.

[elppa]

Even though MS doesn't make hardware (well, apart from gaming consoles, mice, keyboards etc), each PC sold means one copy of Windows sold, which cannot be said about every Mac sold.

Do you really believe that Mac sales only benefit the hardware department and not the software department?

[Anuba]

I don't have the "issues" you are apparently are so concerned with spreading to everyone on MacRumors.
OK, so I take it you can't explain how mounting a network drive permanently in Leopard is done in three simple clicks or less, in which case my account wasn't really FUD at all?

It's not FUD about you when it's been stated BY you in numerous threads, such as the two previous Windows/HP ad discussions.
It's FUD when you cook up a mad retelling of the story, get most of the facts wrong and throw in some additional "facts" of your own making.
rabble rabble forgetting you got AppleCare and not activating it even though when purchased it is already activated
Wrong. It's only automatic when you buy the machine directly from Apple, online or through their own stores.

rabble rabble the closest Apple store, being too difficult
We don't have Apple Stores in Sweden. And what I said was that it's laughable that such an expensive service plan as the APP doesn't even include on-site repairs. How much does your service suck when Dell makes you look like ham-fisted amateurs? As for "difficult", that's subjective.
when someone suggested paying for your ticket
What are you smoking?
then it was your girlfriend uses this iMac that apparently wasn't working, but it works enough for her to surf and email
What do you mean "work enough"? It was stone dead, as in black screen and no startup sound, as in power management meltdown. She surfed and emailed plenty *before* it broke down, yes.

then it was all your precious documents you need are on your iMac
I didn't "need" any of them, the issue was that some files on the machine are under heavy NDA restrictions due to my client being a rather large software company that likes to keep their future products under tight wraps. This became an issue when it turned out that Apple doesn't do on-site repairs, because you don't just pull out a hard drive from an alu iMac. By leaving the computer and thus the hard drive unattended in the hands of some douches who can snoop around all they want, I would be violating the NDA.

Any other misunderstandings/hallucinations you need sorted out?

[DMann]

Well what i like to do is pop in my SD card into my laptop, play a blu-ray movie, do photoshop work, edit videos with premiere, surf the web with Chrome, and listen to music with the Zune software...

Hmmm. How many of those things can a Mac do?

What I like to do is pop in an SD card into my MBP, (USB input) play HD movies, blu-ray rips, DVDs, do photoshop work on two monitors (Photoshop Win64 doesn't handle multiple monitors well) edit video using FCP, which I find far superior to Premier, surf the web using Firefox, Safari 4, etc., edit and mix music using Logic Pro, and listen to music with iTunes. Besides, a Mac can do anything you mention above by running windows, sans FCStudio, Logic Pro, and Photoshop using more than one monitor.

[Sehnsucht]

Actually, PC users started it. All of the Mac users I've see are innocent people and then there's the PC fanboys always [first to] pick on Mac users and how they suck. I haven't heard one good reason about why Macs suck from any PC fanboy. Oh and saying Macs suck because it just does is not a reason at all, much less a good one.

I don't hate PCs generally, but seeing extreme [PC] fanboys being really biased kind of pisses me off. My friend who has an Alienware computer boasted how his 6K gaming machine can beat a Mac Mini and how [Alienware] supposedly cheaper... (???)

The vast majority of Windows fanboys have a love affair with Windows simply because of gaming. If Mac OS X could run all PC games natively, I bet 99% of them would rush out and buy Mac Pros. Don't believe that? Seeing as how so many of them are uniformed and plain ignorant, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

I just got into it with a Windows fanboy the other day when he said that Macs are simply ego purchases to make their owners feel better about themselves. I replied "Yeah, sure, so why did you spend $1,500 putting a gigantic sound system in your car? Why did you spend another $1,000 on your car's tarted-up paint job? Wouldn't have ANYTHING TO DO with you wanting other people to NOTICE and think you were COOL, now would it?" (He had nothing to say to that.)

But ignorance is the key. Only a Windows fanboy would be able to rationalize in his own mind a contest between a Mac mini and a quad-core Alienware. Oftentimes, Windows fanboys don't know anything about the PPC-Intel switch or what processors Macs even use.

One of my coworkers, a guy in his mid-30's whom I've decided to dub "The AidenShaw of Walmart" is a know-it-all Windows smartass who gets snotty whenever a customer asks him if a particular peripheral is Mac-compatible. He'll say something like, "It might work, but Macs aren't compatible with anything so it wouldn't surprise me if it's not." I asked him why he said that and he replied, "Macs suck! My dad is in love with them but I've always hated them. It used to piss me off back when I was in high school that he spent so much money on a Macintosh when you could get an IBM PC for less. I mean the only thing more expensive than a Mac then was a Silicon Graphics workstation for like $12,000. But yeah, the Macs can't be upgraded or anything. Every time they change the operating system you have to buy another computer. If you want a bigger hard drive or more RAM you have to send them to Apple. And if something breaks then you're screwed. They're retarded." :rolleyes:

So really, it just boils down to the fact that people like running their mouths more than checking facts.

[bedifferent]

blah

I'm not even wasting my time. I've been down this road with you, as have MANY MacRumors commentators. As I stated, I'm done with you. Shoo.

[BongoBanger]

The vast majority of Windows fanboys have a love affair with Windows simply because of gaming.

Maybe. On the other hand the vast majority of Windows users use it because it's flexible and universal.

If Mac OS X could run all PC games natively, I bet 99% of them would rush out and buy Mac Pros. Don't believe that? Seeing as how so many of them are uniformed and plain ignorant, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Really? You think hardcore gamers are going to be swayed by a workstation with a subpar (for gaming) GPU?

Shouldn't think so.

[bedifferent]

I just got into it with a Windows fanboy the other day when he said that Macs are simply ego purchases to make their owners feel better about themselves.

I love when they state that claim. Sure, I'll just throw my Mac Pro and monitors into my car and drive it over to the nearest Starbucks so I can display my purchase to everyone. Sadly I know a few people who hide their Windows systems when using them in public, not that I agree, Windows is a fine OS, but stating that spending thousands of dollars to feel good about your purchase is a pretty hollow excuse.

[applecultvictim]

Its great that Microsoft admits that they have to pay people to buy their products.

Excellent, short, sweet and witty response! That's what the :apple: pr guy should have said. But he botched the job and gave a very mediocre convoluted one...

[Anuba]

Windows 7 RC is being released in a couple weeks, not the final version. I'm not sure if that's what you mean or not.
I wrote "release candidate" once and "RC" twice, I thought it was crystal. What I meant, basically, was that with the beta being so stable and the RC being rolled out as a free download in a couple of weeks, many will be leaving Vista behind for good any day now. Which is why running Vista ads at this point in time would be mighty strange and pointless.

Do you really believe that Mac sales only benefit the hardware department and not the software department?
I've read the above sentence half a dozen times but I'm still at loss as to how it even remotely relates to what I said.

[Anuba]

I'm not even wasting my time.
By all means, run. I'm getting used to the sight of you with your tail between your legs.
Excellent, short, sweet and witty response! That's what the :apple: pr guy should have said. But he botched the job and gave a very mediocre convoluted one...
Yup, that's a choice response right there. He should have asked for 5 minutes to think about it.
The vast majority of Windows fanboys have a love affair with Windows simply because of gaming.
Bizarre, that. For $4,000 they get almost the same framerate as a $300 console would give them. It's even more bizarre if you've been around since the days of games like Leisure Suit Larry, it was so blatantly obvious that a poor beige office PC was all kinds of wrong as a gaming platform, and somewhere deep inside it's still that same old office PC, only a billion times more powerful and covered in bling.

[ziggyonice]

....is a know-it-all Windows smartass who gets snotty whenever a customer asks him if a particular peripheral is Mac-compatible. He'll say something like, "It might work, but Macs aren't compatible with anything so it wouldn't surprise me if it's not." I asked him why he said that and he replied, "Macs suck!"...

Ha, I guess you could say that I'm his opposite. Working for an electronics store, whenever I get someone who asks, "Will this work on my Mac?" I respond, "Yes, without a problem. The bigger question is will it work on Windows?" :D

[bedifferent]

By all means, run. I'm getting used to the sight of you with your tail between your legs.

Yup, that's a choice response right there. He should have asked for 5 minutes to think about it.

EDIT NOT WORTH MY TIME

[Shiner]

I have a Vista and OSX computer and have more memory leaks, hangs, etc on my Macbook Pro than on my Vista computer by far.

Office is really good, as is Live Photo Gallery, Zune 3.0, Windows Media Player, etc. Microsoft makes good software. But hey, if you don't like it, no big deal.

Awesome!! I have almost your exact setup and couldn't agree more. Vista has been rock solid on my desktop for 5 months. Leopard (mind you I have owned every Mac OS) has caused me nothing but problems on my mac book pro.

[polaris20]

I wrote "release candidate" once and "RC" twice, I thought it was crystal. What I meant, basically, was that with the beta being so stable and the RC being rolled out as a free download in a couple of weeks, many will be leaving Vista behind for good any day now. Which is why running Vista ads at this point in time would be mighty strange and pointless.


Oh I misread. I thought you meant the RC of Win7 was limited release; you meant the Vista RC.

[vansouza]

Apple should be careful here....they're in danger of losing a portion of their target market...because the minute old people start saying something is "cool", it immediately becomes "so not cool" to young people...:p:D

And what is "old"? Some here have been with Apple longer then you are old.

[Anuba]

Oh I misread. I thought you meant the RC of Win7 was limited release; you meant the Vista RC.
Vista betas and RCs were something you had to hurry and get before they closed the door for downloads, but from what I've read about the Win7 RC they have this big coordinated thing planned where they're gonna push the Win7 RC on everyone while simultaneously moving XP to some sort of pre-retirement status where XP users will only receive the basic security updates, no more hotfixes etc.

[Digital Skunk]

Awesome!! I have almost your exact setup and couldn't agree more. Vista has been rock solid on my desktop for 5 months. Leopard (mind you I have owned every Mac OS) has caused me nothing but problems on my mac book pro.

I am by no means a Kool-Aid drinking Mac fanboy like some of the posters who are insulting Aiden Shaw or Anuba..... but if you are having issues with Leopard what are you doing wrong?

[Digital Skunk]

Way back in the thread, there was this post about both Macs and PCs having there advantages.

For me, I'd rather have Mac OSX running on PC hardware.

[polaris20]

For me, I'd rather have Mac OSX running on PC hardware.

I look forward to seeing if the EFI-X will continue to work, once Snow Leopard is out.

[iMacoo7]

This does sum it up and makes things more clearer when making the comparison. There is a reason why some have changed to a mac or have chosen to use macs as the only machine. "quality"

AppleInsider sums up (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/04/16/apple_responds_to_microsoft_ads_a_pc_is_no_bargain.html) the best explanation of these attacks so far. The BusinessWeek article explains:
Too funny!!

Life Without Walls..... Life With Viruses And Invaders! :d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

[miggitymac]

The vast majority of Windows fanboys have a love affair with Windows simply because of gaming. If Mac OS X could run all PC games natively, I bet 99% of them would rush out and buy Mac Pros. Don't believe that? Seeing as how so many of them are uniformed and plain ignorant, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Actually, a lot of gamers prefer to build their own machines...which means they put in the time to research the components they want. They also mod their machines frequently enough that they tend to know how to troubleshoot/debug/fix their systems better than an average user would. That would make them neither uniformed (I think you were aiming for "uninformed") nor ignorant...

I just got into it with a Windows fanboy the other day when he said that Macs are simply ego purchases to make their owners feel better about themselves. I replied "Yeah, sure, so why did you spend $1,500 putting a gigantic sound system in your car? Why did you spend another $1,000 on your car's tarted-up paint job? Wouldn't have ANYTHING TO DO with you wanting other people to NOTICE and think you were COOL, now would it?" (He had nothing to say to that.)

Your reply didn't really prove his argument wrong. All you did was avoid the issue by suggesting he was being hypocritical.

But ignorance is the key. Only a Windows fanboy would be able to rationalize in his own mind a contest between a Mac mini and a quad-core Alienware. Oftentimes, Windows fanboys don't know anything about the PPC-Intel switch or what processors Macs even use.

Why do Mac fanboys knock Windows fanboys for being fanboys (and vice versa)? :p:rolleyes::confused: Can we not just all stick with what we like and leave it at that?

One of my coworkers, a guy in his mid-30's whom I've decided to dub "The AidenShaw of Walmart" is a know-it-all Windows smartass who gets snotty whenever a customer asks him if a particular peripheral is Mac-compatible. He'll say something like, "It might work, but Macs aren't compatible with anything so it wouldn't surprise me if it's not." I asked him why he said that and he replied, "Macs suck! My dad is in love with them but I've always hated them. It used to piss me off back when I was in high school that he spent so much money on a Macintosh when you could get an IBM PC for less. I mean the only thing more expensive than a Mac then was a Silicon Graphics workstation for like $12,000. But yeah, the Macs can't be upgraded or anything. Every time they change the operating system you have to buy another computer. If you want a bigger hard drive or more RAM you have to send them to Apple. And if something breaks then you're screwed. They're retarded." :rolleyes:

So really, it just boils down to the fact that people like running their mouths more than checking facts.

Reading all that was totally not worth it for the point you were trying to make...

[Lesser Evets]

"A PC is no bargain when it doesn't do what you want ...."

A beautiful quote.

So true.

Plus, all the hidden needs that cost you a lot of cash to make the PC work and be stable raise the price even or beyond a Mac. And then time to make it all work, and time to decipher the confusion of all the crap in the OS and programs, make a PC a true waste of time. It's a great scam. But, it's still a scam. The price of the base system is a lure, and you pay later.

[Digital Skunk]

I look forward to seeing if the EFI-X will continue to work, once Snow Leopard is out.

That's the main reason I can't do the Hackintosh thing. And I'd pull my hair out with the micro problems that already exist with Leopard on the Mac and pro apps.... along with the major issues of Leopard running on a PC with pro apps.

[bedifferent]

if the EFI-X will continue to work, once Snow Leopard is out.

EFI-X, this is the x86 OS X on non-Apple hardware?

[NT1440]

A beautiful quote.

So true.

Plus, all the hidden needs that cost you a lot of cash to make the PC work and be stable raise the price even or beyond a Mac. And then time to make it all work, and time to decipher the confusion of all the crap in the OS and programs, make a PC a true waste of time. It's a great scam. But, it's still a scam. The price of the base system is a lure, and you pay later.

Uh, a PC isn't really hard at all to run, just annoying. I have no issues maintaining this Vista laptop, it just annoys me.

[polaris20]

That's the main reason I can't do the Hackintosh thing. And I'd pull my hair out with the micro problems that already exist with Leopard on the Mac and pro apps.... along with the major issues of Leopard running on a PC with pro apps.


According to multiple reviews as well as another gentleman here at MR (whose name escapes me now) the EFI-X really does work just as a Mac does, provided you follow their hardware compatibility list. Just build the PC following the HCL, stick the dongle on the USB header, and buy a retail OS X disk.

It ends up that you can build a minitower for the same cost as an entry-level iMac, with a quad core Intel and more expandability.

EFI-X, this is the x86 OS X on non-Apple hardware?

http://efi-x.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21&language=english

Uses a regular retail disk of OS X; doesn't really require hacking of any sort, outside of adding the dongle (which isn't really hacking).

[elppa]

I wrote "release candidate" once and "RC" twice, I thought it was crystal. What I meant, basically, was that with the beta being so stable and the RC being rolled out as a free download in a couple of weeks, many will be leaving Vista behind for good any day now. Which is why running Vista ads at this point in time would be mighty strange and pointless.


I've read the above sentence half a dozen times but I'm still at loss as to how it even remotely relates to what I said.

This is the point I take issue with:
each PC sold means one copy of Windows sold, which cannot be said about every Mac sold.
Actually it can. Each Mac sale is also an OS X sale.

The difference is Apple is selling it directly to their customers, whereas most copies of Windows are sold to the end user via Microsoft's OEM partners.

[Digital Skunk]

Why do Mac fanboys knock Windows fanboys for being fanboys (and vice versa)? :p:rolleyes::confused: Can we not just all stick with what we like and leave it at that?

It's just like the iPhone users. One mention of the word "PRE" and they are all in arms about how terrible it's going to be and so forth.

People assign their lives to these Operating Systems and feel personally insulted when someone even hints at saying it sucks or isn't better than "X" product.

Reading all that was totally not worth it for the point you were trying to make...

I agree. I don't know what he's really getting at besides that one guy being an idiot, and his father not knowing how to upgrade computers.

[bedifferent]

According to multiple reviews as well as another gentleman here at MR (whose name escapes me now) the EFI-X really does work just as a Mac does, provided you follow their hardware compatibility list. Just build the PC following the HCL, stick the dongle on the USB header, and buy a retail OS X disk.

It ends up that you can build a minitower for the same cost as an entry-level iMac, with a quad core Intel and more expandability.

:eek: I have been meaning to try this just for the sake of tinkering around. I've read a lot about the x86 project and have the necessary files and such, but never got the time. What exactly occurs? EFI versus BIOS wise?

[gnasher729]

Maybe. On the other hand the vast majority of Windows users use it because it's flexible and universal.

Come on. The vast majority of Windows users use it because that is what their IT department put on their desk.

[Stately]

Yup, Macs users are smarter and cooler than pc users.

Haha, I concur. :cool::D

[polaris20]

:eek: I have been meaning to try this just for the sake of tinkering around. I've read a lot about the x86 project and have the necessary files and such, but never got the time. What exactly occurs? EFI versus BIOS wise?

You point the BIOS at USB device to boot, which then boots from the EFI-X. The EFI-X then emulates what the OS X disk is looking for, then allows you to load the operating system.

Theoretically Apple could break this by requiring another piece of hardware somewhere in a "genuine" Macintosh. However I'm not sure how they'd accomplish that while not breaking existing genuine Macs. But I'm not an engineer, so maybe I'm missing something.

[dwd3885]

What I like to do is pop in an SD card into my MBP, (USB input) play HD movies, blu-ray rips, DVDs, do photoshop work on two monitors (Photoshop Win64 doesn't handle multiple monitors well) edit video using FCP, which I find far superior to Premier, surf the web using Firefox, Safari 4, etc., edit and mix music using Logic Pro, and listen to music with iTunes. Besides, a Mac can do anything you mention above by running windows, sans FCStudio, Logic Pro, and Photoshop using more than one monitor.

well by the time you put in your SD card via usb input on your mbp and rip the blu-ray movie, you won't have any more usb for your external mouse or ipod/iphone. sucks don't it?

[applecultvictim]

Theoretically Apple could break this by requiring another piece of hardware somewhere in a "genuine" Macintosh. However I'm not sure how they'd accomplish that while not breaking existing genuine Macs. But I'm not an engineer, so maybe I'm missing something.

They can break it but as long as the efi is updated with the latest firmware then it can so to speak "unbreak" this by modifying itself accordingly to bypass the new apple tweak like it did in the first place. At least that's my rudimentary understanding of this.

[HLdan]

Windows, "life without walls". So that's how the viruses get in. :D

[bedifferent]

well by the time you put in your SD card via usb input on your mbp and rip the blu-ray movie, you won't have any more usb for your external mouse or ipod/iphone. sucks don't it?

Bluetooth Mouse and Keyboard, use FireWire 800 on Pro or USB for Blu-Ray, which leaves plenty of open connections for a SD card. Or, use the SD Memory card slot available on most [networked] printers. After all, it's all about wireless moving into the future, who needs more wires? :p

[polaris20]

They can break it but as long as the efi is updated with the latest firmware then it can so to speak "unbreak" this by modifying itself accordingly to bypass the new apple tweak like it did in the first place. At least that's my rudimentary understanding of this.

Mine too, unless they find a way to add a secondary internal piece of hardware that the OS disk looks for. Like I said, I'm no engineer and I'm just hypothesizing.

[DMann]

well by the time you put in your SD card via usb input on your mbp and rip the blu-ray movie, you won't have any more usb for your external mouse or ipod/iphone. sucks don't it?

How long would I need to keep an SD card connected, 30secs? Blu-ray movies have already been ripped and transferred over. The wireless mouse doesn't take up a usb port, which leaves plenty for charging/updating the iPhone, when necessary. Nah.... only my HP laptop truly sucked, and not in a small way.

[applecultvictim]

Mine too, unless they find a way to add a secondary internal piece of hardware that the OS disk looks for. Like I said, I'm no engineer and I'm just hypothesizing.

On a sidenote it's too damn expensive the dongle isn't it? For what it does I mean, add to that the cost of the original os x retail version and you are far better off just getting a mac, unless you really want the mid tower desktop.

[mosx]

Wow this response is chock full of irony.

Macs essentially require Windows to be installed to get full functionality out of the hardware. You need it if you want to do anything other than syncing your iDevice or playing with your pictures in iPhoto. Everything "real" requires Windows, and those things you can do in OS X aren't guaranteed to be compatible with their Windows counterparts, so you still need Windows to guarantee compatibility with real world work.

Macs certainly can't do everything people want. They can't play blu-ray movies without a lot of additional and costly hardware, even when they can play blu-ray movies they can't playback the high end audio formats. They can't play games adequately. When it comes to music, the choices for audio hardware are extremely limited. Theres no 64-bit version of Photoshop on OS X, so they're no longer the platform of choice for Photoshop users.

So going by Apple's own logic, Macs are terrible values at any price because you can't do what you want with them, and what you can do with them requires a secondary OS be installed for full functionality.

[Digital Skunk]

On a sidenote it's too damn expensive the dongle isn't it? For what it does I mean, add to that the cost of the original os x retail version and you are far better off just getting a mac, unless you really want the mid tower desktop.

Yes, getting that mini tower desktop would be worth it. Upgrading the GFX card on even a $1400 Mac would be wonderful.

And we aren't homophobes or taking any cheap shots at them. It was just outta taste. If you want the issue to stop completely, don't call us homophobes.

[dwl017]

Isn't that a bit of a childish remark? No wonder PC users see us as snobbish. :o

You have to remember that many of the posters here at MR are nothing more than adolescent children. I set the bar very low when reading comments here and take all of them with a grain of salt.

[NT1440]

Wow this response is chock full of irony.

Macs essentially require Windows to be installed to get full functionality out of the hardware. You need it if you want to do anything other than syncing your iDevice or playing with your pictures in iPhoto. Everything "real" requires Windows, and those things you can do in OS X aren't guaranteed to be compatible with their Windows counterparts, so you still need Windows to guarantee compatibility with real world work.



What exactly do you consider "real" ?

[Digital Skunk]

...So going by Apple's own logic, Macs are terrible values at any price because you can't do what you want with them, and what you can do with them requires a secondary OS be installed for full functionality.

no comment....

Does someone else wanna take this one.

[NT1440]

no comment....

Does someone else wanna take this one.

Can't deal with something so heavily sided. How many people using macs really give a damn about their ability to playback high quality audio on bluray, when the majority of people don't know an mp4 file from an mp3.

[ziggyonice]

Wow this response is chock full of irony.

Macs essentially require Windows to be installed to get full functionality out of the hardware. You need it if you want to do anything other than syncing your iDevice or playing with your pictures in iPhoto. Everything "real" requires Windows, and those things you can do in OS X aren't guaranteed to be compatible with their Windows counterparts, so you still need Windows to guarantee compatibility with real world work.

I am baffled by your comment. I don't even know how to respond.

You say "everything 'real' requires Windows". What are you talking about?! What is "real" that you cannot do with a Mac? The only thing you mention is gaming, which yes, often requires Windows. But if anything, that's as far from your "real world work" as you can get!

[Anuba]

Actually it can. Each Mac sale is also an OS X sale.
Well sure, but this isn't a counter-argument to what I said. I never said a Mac sale isn't also an OS X sale.

The poster I responded to asked why Microsoft was running these ads when they don't even make hardware, and I responded that even though they technically don't make the hardware, it's still "their" market share that's at stake in the OS X vs Windows wars. If Mac takes a larger market share, OS X also increases its market share (as you pointed out)... and since this is pretty much a zero sum game, one more Mac sold usually means one less PC sold, which usually means one less copy of Windows sold. So they're trying to dissuade people from considering Macs, in order to protect the Windows marketshare. I don't see why it's so puzzling to some that Microsoft use third party hardware as leverage.

[Digital Skunk]

I am baffled by your comment. I don't even know how to respond.

You say "everything 'real' requires Windows". What are you talking about?! What is "real" that you cannot do with a Mac?

Usually mosx says some good debatable stuff, but this one is off the wall.

Especially when he/she says that you have to install Windows as well as Mac OS X to get things done.

I get you ANUBA. As was stated before, it's not like Windows can do the same ad with just standalone copies of the OS.

[applecultvictim]

Yes, getting that mini tower desktop would be worth it. Upgrading the GFX card on even a $1400 Mac would be wonderful.

And we aren't homophobes or taking any cheap shots at them. It was just outta taste. If you want the issue to stop completely, don't call us homophobes.

As for the perennial expandability issue/myth with the macs I don't get it why you would want to upgrade the gfx card to begin with? If you are not satisfied with your machine and don't want to be using it for the next 4 or so years then why buy it in the fist place? By the time these 4 years come the techonology from everything from cpu to ram speeds to drives (which you CAN update) to screen will have changed sooo much that your upgrade will not be a rational choice to go put a brand you gfx card to four year old machine. I challenge you go find a wintel 4 year old machine and put that gfx card in and see if it makes any difference, do it even on a three year old...this doesn't make sense, it's more illogical than your homophobia.

expandable towers for consumers (not the mac pro towers) are for heavy modders who just want as a hobby to keep expanding/changing etc. everything per yearly basis or so, game etc, so they are far better served with whatever crapware ms has out than os x, and maybe the linuxes, why should apple bother with that crowd, their all in one strategy is flawless imo.

[Digital Skunk]

As for the perennial expandability issue/myth with the macs I don't get it why you would want to upgrade the gfx card to begin with? If you are not satisfied with your machine and don't want to be using it for the next 4 or so years then why buy it in the fist place? By the time these 4 years come the techonology from everything from cpu to ram speeds to drives (which you CAN update) to screen will have changed sooo much that your upgrade will not be a rational choice to go put a brand you gfx card to four year old machine. I challenge you go find a wintel 4 year old machine and put that gfx card in and see if it makes any difference, do it even on a three year old...this doesn't make sense, it's more illogical than your homophobia.

Why the hostility? GEEZE pal!

First off, my 4 year old G5 has two ACDs attached to it that will go along with the Mac Pro, so yes, you can keep 4 years old tech with those machines.

Second, I was talking about games which require more from the GFX card than anything.

Third, what's with FOUR years. I am talking the second year or 6 months. When Crysis was released it put to task cards that were barely on the market.

Please stop with the homophobe thing. You wouldn't want me to go around calling you a bigot, or a racist sexist pig... so just drop it without calling me or anyone else a homophobe in the process.

[Anuba]

Usually mosx says some good debatable stuff, but this one is off the wall.

Especially when he/she says that you have to install Windows as well as Mac OS X to get things done.
You can obviously get a lot of things done on both, since pretty much all manner of third party productivity software is available for both. Office, Creative Suite and all that stuff. Since gaming is the polar opposite of getting things done, I suppose we've narrowed it down to work-critical software that isn't available for the OS X platform. Or...?
Please stop with the homophobe thing. You wouldn't want me to go around calling you a bigot, or a racist sexist pig... so just drop it without calling me or anyone else a homophobe in the process.
Seconded, err, can we please not do the gratuitous playing of the homophobia card? Save it for some time when it stands a chance of making at least a grain of sense. I mean, wow, talk about left field.

[Rob0711]

Did you read the note? The ads have generated over 6000 comments on this website alone!

If people are discussing it this much here, just imagine how much discussion there is all over the web and in the world about the ads. They have been immensely successful.

sorry for commenting on that one so late. still in all (3 or 4) threads, the least comments were actually about the ads. the rest was comparing cars, clothing and just senseless bashing. so all the ads did was revitalize the oldschool mac vs. pc bashing like it happened in earlier days. i´d rather turn the stick around and say that they had the exact opposite effect, by making windows users become new macrumors members. though many came here for advice and because they need a forum to express their belief. still they ended up here. which is after all a first step :) and as most of us know. the first step is the hardest. so welcome home :)

[DMann]

no comment....

Does someone else wanna take this one.

Aside from Photoshop 64 being unable to work with two monitors, (making it unusable for many) Windows inablity to run Final Cut Studio, which is far superior to Adobe CS - Premier, and Windows inability to run Logic Pro, which is superior to Protools (which Mac runs very well) in regard to MIDI and synth mixing, Windows does not function reliably enough to be considered when running several apps at once - no Windows install necessary, nor wanted.

[KnightWRX]

I am baffled by your comment. I don't even know how to respond.

You say "everything 'real' requires Windows". What are you talking about?! What is "real" that you cannot do with a Mac? The only thing you mention is gaming, which yes, often requires Windows. But if anything, that's as far from your "real world work" as you can get!

I'm gaming on my PS3 all the time. It's not running Windows.

[applecultvictim]

Why the hostility? GEEZE pal!

First off, my 4 year old G5 has two ACDs attached to it that will go along with the Mac Pro, so yes, you can keep 4 years old tech with those machines.

Second, I was talking about games which require more from the GFX card than anything.

Third, what's with FOUR years. I am talking the second year or 6 months. When Crysis was released it put to task cards that were barely on the market.

Please stop with the homophobe thing. You wouldn't want me to go around calling you a bigot, or a racist sexist pig... so just drop it without calling me or anyone else a homophobe in the process.

I didn't call you pig or a racist or anything and I am having a civil discussion with you. I just noted some homophobic tendencies in your previous posts, don't act as if you are victimized here...:rolleyes:

Well if you have a mac pro, then of course they are expandable and of course they can keep four year old tech, so you have what you want. So what is your claim then? I refered to your claiming you want an expandable $1400 computer and that can't happen for the reasons I mentioned above, and now you switched gears to a mac pro? It's confusing...:confused:

Like I said if you want go game go get a wintel tower or stick with the mac pro, apple never said they would cater to the gaming crowd and they would make sure their computers should be per six months upgradable for whatever crazy game comes along that wants to use everything to the tilt. But even so, if yo can afford it you still CAN go for the mac pro and be sorted for the coming 5 years....I really don't see what you are asking from apple here...

[Digital Skunk]

Aside from Photoshop 64 being unable to work with two monitors, (making it unusable for many) Windows inablity to run Final Cut Studio, which is far superior to Adobe CS - Premier, and Windows inability to run Logic Pro, which is superior to Protools (which Mac runs very well) in regard to MIDI and synth mixing, Windows does not function reliably enough to be considered when running several apps at once - no Windows install necessary, nor wanted.

This basically sums it up.

The part that made me double take was the apps mosx listed. They all run on both platforms. After that it's just a matter of hardware IMHO, leading me back to my original statement.

Give me Mac OSX on the PC hardware.... in which case i will do some research into the EFI-X thing.

On a personal note, I rather like Premier, and the only thing holding FCStudio back is DVD Studio Pro and Color.

[JGowan]

Help, O Wise Ones!

The 2nd ad (I think) was a guy that basically said that Apple's laptops were all about style/looks and not about power...

I recently bought my wife the top tier MacBook Pro 15" (BTO: 2.93GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor; 320GB @ 7200rpm HD; 4GB Ram) -- how much better is the best PC laptops, really? This is not a rhetorical question... I honestly don't know and would like to hear from you who are more in the know than me, your average Mac user.

[Digital Skunk]

...


I never mentioned the Mac Pro.

Okay, not gaming, how about After Effects.....

You know what.... nevermind.

[polaris20]

Wow this response is chock full of irony.

Macs essentially require Windows to be installed to get full functionality out of the hardware. You need it if you want to do anything other than syncing your iDevice or playing with your pictures in iPhoto. Everything "real" requires Windows, and those things you can do in OS X aren't guaranteed to be compatible with their Windows counterparts, so you still need Windows to guarantee compatibility with real world work.

Macs certainly can't do everything people want. They can't play blu-ray movies without a lot of additional and costly hardware, even when they can play blu-ray movies they can't playback the high end audio formats. They can't play games adequately. When it comes to music, the choices for audio hardware are extremely limited. Theres no 64-bit version of Photoshop on OS X, so they're no longer the platform of choice for Photoshop users.

So going by Apple's own logic, Macs are terrible values at any price because you can't do what you want with them, and what you can do with them requires a secondary OS be installed for full functionality.

Full of misinformation as usual. Macs can't do "real work", which you shortly follow with bluray, games, and music. What field did you say you worked in? I forgot.

[Ubuntu]

I think if Apple's response was true, the mac market % would be a lot bigger.

[applecultvictim]

First off, my 4 year old G5 has two ACDs attached to it that will go along with the Mac Pro, so yes, you can keep 4 years old tech with those machines.

Second, I was talking about games which require more from the GFX card than anything.

Third, what's with FOUR years. I am talking the second year or 6 months. When Crysis was released it put to task cards that were barely on the market.

I never mentioned the Mac Pro.
Okay, not gaming, how about After Effects.....
You know what.... nevermind.

Ok, sort it out youself first and then come back with something coherent...or get that dongle at least so you can stop whining, a lot of people have it and they find it useful to run os x on their wintel towers so you can keep upgrading graphics cards every six months.

Btw, I consider the face palm picture very offensive, at least I posted a literary novel.

[-hh]

True, but where the PC still reigns is in customization and plethora of options...

That's true: one can get
mouse poop,
rabbit poop,
cat poop,
dog poop,
big dog poop,
donkey poop,
horse poop,
zebra poop,
lion poop,
camel poop,
cow poop,
giraffe poop,
buffalo poop,
elephant poop,
&
whale poop.

Just consider yourself lucky that I didn't provide "...twenty seven eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was..." :D

-hh

--

Autonomy and Freedom of choice are critical to our well being, and choice is critical to freedom and autonomy. Nonetheless, though modern Americans have more choice than any group of people ever has before, and thus, presumably, more freedom and autonomy, we don't seem to be benefiting from it psychologically.
— Chapter 5, "The Paradox of Choice" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice), 2004

[MattInOz]

This type of childish rivalry wasn't even a factor before Jobs came along. Commodore 64 users didn't gang up on Sinclair Spectrum users, Spectrum users didn't taunt Texas Instruments TI/99 users. The Mac community (with Jobs cheerleading in the background) started the whole hatin'-on-another-platform tradition, the Linux community joined in later.

Ummm... I want to move to where you live, or grow up.
C64 kids did pick on everyone else round my way, and oldely every one i've ever spoken too seems to agree.

And they all had Vic 20's* before that. It's funny all the kids who got to use ][e's and most of the machines other that the C64's where using a computer had for work. In contrast the C64 was a "family" computer.

That is when the battle line was drawn. Play vs Tool. It hasn't really changed.

*i'm old my memory is fading so model number may be wrong, but the pain is still fresh.

[DMann]

Wow this response is chock full of irony...

Full of misinformation as usual. Macs can't do "real work", which you shortly follow with bluray, games, and music. What field did you say you worked in? I forgot. Seems that this very post was chock full of irony.

[iSamurai]

now apple should just put out an ad to own those microsoft ads...


microsoft don't even make computers (okay, they make keyboards, mice) and they're busy ripping off how expensive apple's stuffs are. why don't m$ get their software right in the 1st place and then compare? ive used windows from 3.1 to vista and i've had enough when everything just kept crashing while i try to do my primary/high school homework... and now it's mac for uni :)

[Goona]

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=Operating+Systems&articleId=9131558&taxonomyId=89&pageNumber=1

[whoaman]

I use a Mac Pro for my music work (with DP, Logic Pro, PT) and over the past 20 years, all the different Macs I've used never failed me, I never got a virus (that is, my Mac never did;)), and I'm writing this post on a 4 1/2 year old Powerbook that keeps on ticking. A few of my friends did the 'switch' even though it cost a bit more, and interestingly, not one of them regrets it.

[Anuba]

and Windows inability to run Logic Pro, which is superior to Protools (which Mac runs very well) in regard to MIDI and synth mixing
Umm...

Emagic's Logic ran perfectly well on Windows until the day that Gerhard Lengeling sold Emagic to Apple, and Apple swiftly discontinued Logic for Windows in an attempt to force all Logic users to buy Macs. Instead, much to Gerhard's dismay, they went to Steinberg's Cubase (Gerhard and Charlie Steinberg once had a kind of Jobs/Wozniak thing going, but later split... and it wasn't amicable until they smoked the peace pipe -- literally -- at the Frankfurt MusikMesse in 1997).

As for "superior to Pro Tools", technically a lot of things are superior to Pro Tools, the problem is that you would be laughed out of any studio if you barged in and made the above claim. Pro Tools is the industry standard whether we like it or not (I personally don't care for it).

The big Mac advantage from a DAW point of view is CoreAudio. Windows wasn't built for DAW purposes, they tried with the WaveRT API in Vista but it was about as successful as the WMA audio format, i.e. noooooot. When it comes to low-latency audio out of the box, Mac wins hands down. The software argument, however, is pretty lame. 90% of all professional music software (and 100% of the essential music software) runs on both platforms. Cubase, Pro Tools, Reason, Ableton Live and a zillion VST/AU plugins. Sure, Mac does Logic but only Windows does WaveLab, Adobe Audition, Sonar, SF Acid, FruityLoops, ReBirth and a lo-o-ong list of other apps that many would never trade for Logic even at gunpoint.

[bedifferent]

Autonomy and Freedom of choice are critical to our well being, and choice is critical to freedom and autonomy. Nonetheless, though modern Americans have more choice than any group of people ever has before, and thus, presumably, more freedom and autonomy, we don't seem to be benefiting from it psychologically.
— Chapter 5, "The Paradox of Choice" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice), 2004

Excellent reference. It is interesting to note that generally the more choices in consumerism the more prone to emotional instability. Additionally, the increase in product variety and availability has significantly negatively impacted the environment by creating more waste in packaging and consumption.

[-hh]

Not going to bother with the whole post of this drivel, but seriously... want to actually back up statements about iPhoto being just a toy, etc? I use iPhoto constantly. It's an incredible piece of software and does more than most PC software programs can dream of for your pictures.

However, it does have its limitations, and there are some things out there that are arguably better at certain tasks (eg, keyword tagging in Adobe Bridge) ... but the rest of the question is what software is arguably 'better' that similarly comes for free on a Windows PC?

Sure, if you've got something like a professional digital SLR camera and you're shooting in RAW, you're going to need Aperture.

Or Adobe Lightroom ... but that's not a free ticket either. On either OS.


-hh

[DMann]

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=Operating+Systems&articleId=9131558&taxonomyId=89&pageNumber=1

Excellent read.... endorsed by a Windows Guru.

[applecultvictim]

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=Operating+Systems&articleId=9131558&taxonomyId=89&pageNumber=1

That's not to say that every aspect of the Mac is superior to the PC. Vista's Network and Sharing Center, and especially the Network Map, is an excellent, simple, all-in-one destination for networking that Mac OS X would do well to emulate.

Overall, though, Mac OS X beats Windows. There, I've said it. And lightning hasn't struck me yet.

Good read overall...but....The network sharing center, there hasn't been a single most tiresome convoluted, just plainly badly done aspect of windows than the network and sharing center. Suffice to say you are just FIVE clicks away from finding you ip adress amongst confusing window after window after window.

http://www.microsoft.com/library/media/1086/malaysia/windows/images/products/windowsvista/features/details/screenshot_Network_01.jpg

Probably the worst ui interface design EVER. What clutter, tasks on the left, categories on top, maps and various to dos on the right, more see also on the bottom left...some coming up in black fonts, some blue, some white on the left...jesus ms just make up your mind...jesus...and the network map? what's that about does she have ten routers and ten machines running that she needs to see how they all map out...windows people...

At least she saw the light in the end.

[MacAndy74]

'Life without Walls' does that mean that if you buy a Windows PC, you will end up homeless, broke and sleeping on the street? :rolleyes:

[Anuba]

Ummm... I want to move to where you live, or grow up.
C64 kids did pick on everyone else round my way, and oldely every one i've ever spoken too seems to agree.

And they all had Vic 20's* before that. It's funny all the kids who got to use ][e's and most of the machines other that the C64's where using a computer had for work. In contrast the C64 was a "family" computer.
Hm. Well, we didn't have ze internetz in those days so it was a tad difficult to get a grasp on the global home computer wars, but where I grew up (Sweden) we all got along very well. Oh wait, come to think of it, we did taunt one kid a little, but he had an ORIC. Otherwise it was all very friendly. We'd all go to the Sinclair Spectrum kid's house and play JetPac until we were bored, then we'd go to the Spectravideo kid's house, then the C64 kid's house, then the TI99 kid's house, then the Luxor ABC80 kid's house... we'd even gather around a Sinclair ZX81 and watch what happened when you entered 10 PRINT "HELLO", 20 GOTO 10. Then we'd stop by the ORIC kid's house and throw some eggs.

[applecultvictim]

@digitalskunk :) .

Excellent reference. It is interesting to note that generally the more choices in consumerism the more prone to emotional instability. Additionally, the increase in product variety and availability has significantly negatively impacted the environment by creating more waste in packaging and consumption.

This is indeed an excellent reference one that I would never have thought I would see here, I urge everyone to consider the thesis by Schwartz. You will find the insight very liberating... I know I do by reminding myself of all these things I keep getting wrong and suffering as a result...

[DMann]

Umm...

Emagic's Logic ran perfectly well on Windows until the day that Gerhard Lengeling sold Emagic to Apple, and Apple swiftly discontinued Logic for Windows in an attempt to force all Logic users to buy Macs. Instead, much to Gerhard's dismay, they went to Steinberg's Cubase (Gerhard and Charlie Steinberg once had a kind of Jobs/Wozniak thing going, but later split... and it wasn't amicable until they smoked the peace pipe -- literally -- at the Frankfurt MusikMesse in 1997).

As for "superior to Pro Tools", technically a lot of things are superior to Pro Tools, the problem is that you would be laughed out of any studio if you barged in and made the above claim. Pro Tools is the industry standard whether we like it or not (I personally don't care for it).

The big Mac advantage from a DAW point of view is CoreAudio. Windows wasn't built for DAW purposes, they tried with the WaveRT API in Vista but it was about as successful as the WMA audio format, i.e. noooooot. When it comes to low-latency audio out of the box, Mac wins hands down. The software argument, however, is pretty lame. 90% of all professional music software (and 100% of the essential music software) runs on both platforms. Cubase, Pro Tools, Reason, Ableton Live and a zillion VST/AU plugins. Sure, Mac does Logic but only Windows does WaveLab, Adobe Audition, Sonar, SF Acid, FruityLoops, ReBirth and a lo-o-ong list of other apps that many would never trade for Logic even at gunpoint.

Most studios I work with admit that Pro Tools has limitations in certain areas - I was by no means implying that Logic Pro could or would replace Pro Tools, however, it is a great supplement. Sure Cubase, Reason, et. al. are cross platform, and yes, CoreAudio makes interfacing with DAW a pleasure. I can't say that I've played much with WaveLab, Audition, Sonar, SF Acid, etc., but Logic Pro 8 is quite the upgrade from 7, and works seamlessly with my TEAC FW mixers. Logic has indeed come A LONG way since the Emagic era.

[pellets007]

I'm just wondering how long Microsoft can keep up their image of cheap, bargain, and uncool. That's not really a future proof marketing plan.

[DMann]

I'm just wondering how long Microsoft can keep up their image of cheap, bargain, and uncool. That's not really a future proof marketing plan. It has been for a little over two decades, all except the bargain part.

[KnightWRX]

This type of childish rivalry wasn't even a factor before Jobs came along. Commodore 64 users didn't gang up on Sinclair Spectrum users, Spectrum users didn't taunt Texas Instruments TI/99 users. The Mac community (with Jobs cheerleading in the background) started the whole hatin'-on-another-platform tradition, the Linux community joined in later.

I'm pretty sure the childish product rivalries are not in anyway Apple innovation. For one, Chevrolet vs Ford is way older than the IBM PC or Apple Computers.

[BohoTrash]

I know Apple has some kind of cultural cache as a "cool" brand but I became a 'convert' after trying out a Mac in a Comet store last year and finding the whole experience immediately intuitive. I was in the market for buying a new laptop after accidentally killing my old Acer by means of coffee, and thought the price of a Mac initially prohibitive. Nevertheless, out of all the computers I tried out I thought the Mac was the best, so I coughed up the necessary wad and went for the Apple. Now, I'm not particularly a buff or anything but I have found ways to do things creatively on a Mac -without having to bear much of a thought for any underpinning processes- and basically I have actually been able to enjoy using a computer. Crashes are extremely rare; viruses are almost negligable, and the quality and innovation in the hardware -the magsafe has been a boon to a clumsy oaf like me- actually sometimes do make me smile. I am aware that the glowing apple logo on the back of the lid sometimes attracts admiring glances because people perhaps assume that I am loaded and, I don't know, 'culturally astute' or something, but the truth is I used PCs for years without really thinking there was actually anything better. Obviously writing this on a Mac forum should probably be something like preaching to the converted, but most PC users I know that have tried my Mac have been genuinely impressed by how 'sweet' the thing is to use both in terms of tactile hardware and intuitive software. I still have a spare Windows laptop but I use my Mac all the time. I think that in the long run Macs do pay for themselves as since September last year I have experienced my most problem-free computer usage ever, and my PC-using friends and colleagues are aware of this even though I don't necessarily go about evangelising.

I just 'do', because on my Mac I can. More people that I know are now considering Macs as viable purchases in spite of the cost because they've seen that I moan and cuss less. I just get on with my work. By this 'early' stage in a computer's life all the PCs I've ever owned had fallen ill in one way or another -and especially in terms of build quality and OS stability. This is the best advert for Apple. I don't go for Microsoft versus Apple as such. One friend of mine will never be tempted away from PCs because he actually enjoys the battle between user and hardware. He is a PC buff. More power to him. But those of us who simply want to get stuff done do come to understand where Macs excel in the end. I personally think my Mac (and iPhone, for that matter) is cool, and whether or not anyone else thinks it's cool is neither here nor there. It's cool because it works for me.

So Amen to that.
;)

[-hh]

This basically sums it up.

The part that made me double take was the apps mosx listed. They all run on both platforms...

mosx was also called on this statement the other day:

He was asked what the logic was for a "Pro" to even bother to buy a Windows Workstation for use at home to do his LS-DYNA runs, particularly since he probably has a faster workstation (or a mini-cluster) at work that's 10x faster.

Similarly, for sending a Pro/E output through the slicer to go to the Stereolithography machine ... the bottleneck's going to be his Internet connection. FWIW, I didn't bother to mention that we had upgunned our LAN to give move those machines up from a 100bT hookup to Gigabit. Its still a nuisance sending between buildings, though...the 10GB backbone has to be shared with normal traffic.

And while Adobe Photoshop for Mac isn't yet 64 bit, I'm currently able to open up 200 megapixel (MP) image files in the 32bit versions, as this takes only 2GB of RAM.

Considering that state-of-the-shelf 'Pro' level dSLR's are still at around 21MP, the number of Pros doing multi-layer HDR panoramic stitches is pretty small...the generic hobbiest can very easily afford to wait until 2010...which also means that the Mac version should probably be already Snow Leopard optimized, too.


-hh

[billystlyes]

I think the people at Apple are living in a sheltered dream world. Beyond the sexy designs, there is little to justify the pricing. All of these machines basically use the same parts. A C2D is a C2D, a HDD is a HDD and memory is memory. The list really goes on and on. It's the software that makes them special.

[BohoTrash]

Excellent reference. It is interesting to note that generally the more choices in consumerism the more prone to emotional instability. Additionally, the increase in product variety and availability has significantly negatively impacted the environment by creating more waste in packaging and consumption.

And there is what Douglas Coupland referred to as "Option Paralysis": "the tendency, when given unlimited choices, to make none."

Which makes it relatively easy for a PC World salesperson to sell anything with a screen and a keyboard.

[Goona]

Microsoft and its hardware partners wouldn't have to make this case had they focused less in the past decade on driving prices down and more on quality. Forrester Research (FORR) recently released results of a study of consumer experiences with computer companies, assessing their view of a machine's usefulness, usability, and enjoyability. Apple ran the table in all three categories, well ahead of Gateway (now a unit of Acer), HP, and Dell (DELL).

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2009/tc20090415_602968_page_2.htm

[Anuba]

Most studios I work with admit that Pro Tools has limitations in certain areas - I was by no means implying that Logic Pro could or would replace Pro Tools, however, it is a great supplement. Sure Cubase, Reason, et. al. are cross platform, and yes, CoreAudio makes interfacing with DAW a pleasure. I can't say that I've played much with WaveLab, Audition, Sonar, SF Acid, etc., but Logic Pro 8 is quite the upgrade from 7, and works seamlessly with my TEAC FW mixers. Logic has indeed come A LONG way since the Emagic era.
I wanted to have a look at Logic 8 because the interface looked very well designed; after 20 years with Cubase I'm getting a little tired of its perpetual fugliness. So I installed it on a PowerMac G5 at my client's place and loaded one of the included demo songs. It crashed 3 times in 2 minutes(!), and I haven't touched it since. In Logic's defense, this was probably more to do with hardware than software. This particular G5 appeared to be some sort of, er, local prostitute that had seen so many installs and uninstalls and had so much crap on the desktop, a thorough enema was long overdue. I'll have another look if and when I buy a Mac Pro quad later this year -- rumor has it that Cubase 5 is awful on Nehalem Mac Pros, so my Cubase license may not be of much worth. Something to do with hyperthreading not being supported in Cubase, resulting in slow-as-molasses performance on Nehalem Macs, blah blah. Steinberg is kind of like Adobe, they once favored Macs, but after Apple's acquisition of Emagic (or, in Adobe's case, the introduction of Final Cut), they demonstratively put less effort into the Mac versions out of pure spite.

[OdduWon]

What? Macs cool? No way, PCs are way cooler. Do all sorts of popups and fancy prompts appear when your Mac boots? No, Why, because you're too busy trying to do work or make stuff pretty to HAVE FUN. Why, I love it every time Clippy comes to my aid in my windozing and tells me crap I don't care about, awesome! And virus scans... best 20 minutes of my life. Forget about features like Expose and Grab, give me the unreliable opening double click over these any day. Is my application opening? I don't know, that's part of the fun! If our computers worked the way they were supposed to all the time, wouldn't we get bored? All I have to say is the Dell craptop I saw the other day had like 100 buttons, How many buttons does your Mac have? Oh, that's right: less buttons = less fun. "I may be poor, but I ain't retarded".

Plus what are the specs of these "Bargain" craptops? Yeah it has 4GB of RAM but what about processor speed, wireless, Bluetooth, and a multi-touch trackpad? Can you really get a better package for less money in the Windows world?

Why is Boot Camp so crappy? No tap/click? WTF. And why does my damn graphics card still buzz whenever I have the screen brightness on lower than the maximum setting? Jeez, I feel like I have one of those craptops when I am Bootcamping. Windows made my Mac less cool :

[Goona]

Apple has completely and utterly won the marketing battle that seemed so daunting for them just a few years back--the battle to convince the masses of the following:

Macs are an option that exists.

Not long ago, the masses of everyday computer buyers didn't see Macs as an option. They didn't know why, they didn't care why... they just know that Windows PCs are what people get. "Just because." These silent people--not the people with vocal opinions for/against Macs--were the majority and still are.

"Just because" doesn't cut it anymore. Even Microsoft is acknowledging that a Mac IS a legitimate option to consider. (Probably not smart on their part!)

That's a huge victory. Macs aren't ignored anymore.

Well said, not everybody wants to use a PC. I don't know of any market with such a dominance. Even with ipods you have numerous alternatives, most PC users don't even know about any alternatives. Good thing the likes of Macs and Linux is around.

[polaris20]

Seems that this very post was chock full of irony.

I'm sorry, where I work, watching movies, playing video games, and listening to music isn't real work. Making movies and making music however is, which the Mac does very well.

[MTI]

I'm just wondering how long Microsoft can keep up their image of cheap, bargain, and uncool. That's not really a future proof marketing plan.

I think we're about to find out when their "Microsoft Store" retail units start appearing.

[Goona]

Also because the OS is nothing without the computer.

MS couldn't just say some guy went out and needed a new OS to put on their "NAMELESS MACHINE"

Then compared Windows and OSX alone.

Plus, one major benefit for PC makers is the lack of R&D on the OS. They don't have to spend any cash on developing an OS, and save money on producing the machines.

Another reason why they cost less than comparable Macs but many people don't factor this when making all those comparisons.

[Goona]

Aha. Yep. Sure. Great designs and advanced software. Ahem. I had to buy Aperture to get something that's actually useful and not a toy like iPhoto. And that pretty much ends the entire iLife discussion for me -- on my Macs, iLife is about as useful for me as all that demo-ware that comes on an average grocery store PC.

Most of that "advanced" software this guy is talking about is actually a waste of space on the hard disk.

Putting a full version of iWork on a new Mac would be more useful for many people - especially for those who use their computer for boring stuff like real work. And even better than iWork would be a fully working version of Microsoft Office - after all, that is the de facto standard.

Or is he talking about OS X? You know, the consumer OS that falls short in almost every regard when you want to deploy it in an enterprise environment.

Or is he talking about Apple NOT providing on-site warranty like the rest of the big PC companies?

No. He's just getting paid to tell the fans the same old catchphrases again so that they keep donating their money to the Holy Church of Apple for the next "amazing, awesome, patented product that will totally change the way of how you think of whatever". And at the end of the day, it's just another buggy mp3 player, a cell phone that lacks basic features (copy & paste, anyone?) or another computer that still needs an additional Windows license for most customers to become useful - or compatible.

Sorry, folks, but I've been in the industry way too long (since the early 1980s) and I'm sick of tired of all that "Hooray!" crap, no matter from which "fraction" it comes. Apple is nice for the home office, but they completely suck in a business environment. Apple also sucks for gamers and for a lot of other typical consumer things as well (digital video-recording, for example). On the other hand, there are very good reasons why Dell, HP and IBM "own" the corporate hardware market and why Microsoft is and will remain the #1 provider of software platforms - for both the enterprise AND consumers. Those guys sell excellent SERVICE and VERSATILE solutions at extremely competitive prices. No, they don't sell designs. And they don't sell dreams, either. That's the business Apple is in.

Damn let it all out son. Tell us why you mad. :eek:

[HLdan]

There's not much monetary incentive for malware writers for a market share that's less than 10%. If you can write malware for something that will have a 90% marketshare audience (conficker) or a sub-10% marketshare, which would you spend the time writing?

People certainly go out of their way to dismiss the fact that Mac OS X is a UNIX based system which is top in security in itself and Windows doesn't offer this. Although it's nonsense what you are saying, let just say it's true. What would be the incentive for me to buy a Windows PC? You make it sound like it's a good thing that Windows gets targeted more due to a larger market share. I could care less if I can get a Windows PC with okay specs for cheap, if my security is in jeopardy or if I have to fight tooth and nail to keep my system from getting spyware that will allow someone to steal my passwords and break into my online bank and wipe me dry then I'll pass and spend a little more money on a Mac.

[Goona]

Having been an Apple fan for going on a couple decades I've noticed a pattern in the old PC vs. Mac price war. The arguments aren't new, and the Apple camp has suffered as the Mac has become more and more a glorified PC (this was my biggest concern about the switch to Intel). However, even in the pre-Intel days the trend was usually Apple release something really cool and cutting edge on a machine that when compared to an identically spec'ed PC is either the same price or better. The problem is then Apple sticks to its price while the PC manufacturer's lower their price (usually as the new thing become established and cheaper to manufacture). We are seeing Apple at the end of Intel product cycle of the Penyrn (remember they only use two lines of the Intel procs--the mobile and the Xeon) so there is now a sizable gap in price per spec between Apple and the generic PC. It would pain me to buy an Apple right now--although yes, I would still do it if I were in the market.

As others have pointed out, combine this slump with Windows 7 (haven't used it but I hear good things . . . really good things) and Apple could take a hit this year if they don't either adjust their pricing (never happen) Win7 hits before they get the next sizable tech boost from Intel (Nvidia?).

That said, never underestimate the ability of modern MS to screw up.

Yeah we also heard good things about Vista which is why Microsoft will still be offering XP when Windows 7 is released.

[Stately]

It's the same thing as us car owners talk about which brands are better. You can get that BMW, Mercedes or Audi if you like but the Hyundai does much the same for less. To each their own I say.

Hyundaaaiii . . . BMW . . . I'm going with the BMW. :D

[tubbymac]

I'm sure that the CEO of Audi badmouths BMW products in private, but to get up on a soapbox and do the same thing is unthinkable because it's unbecoming, unprofessional and immature.

You sure about that? I submit as evidence exhibit A :)

http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/3427670079_fa8f403233_b.jpg

[Drag'nGT]

Apple should just let "The Bean Counter" and "The V Word" run on the TV for a little while longer. It seems to fit the current set up.

[Nitro1]

In a response to the guy who went crazy for a while. DUDE Dell, HP and IBM really. all of those company's have terrible customer service in comparison to the Apple service. I can call and get my question or issue fixed or answered within 10 minutes. I have had many computers before my mac and i am going to say for the record that the customer service for all of them sucked. I have had to deal with HP many times and i used to own a Voodoo computer and the only reason the service was decent was because they are Canadian and not at the time related to HP. Now the computers they build and the customer service is terrible.

Let's all face it. There is nothing better than a Mac and that is why you pay more. For the service and the quality.

And when it comes to gaming yes the mac does not have as many games as a PC but the games they do have are better and no issues. And if you really want to game you can put window's on a Mac ( i know i know blasphemy) but it is possible.

All in all the mac is better.............................

Period...

NO VIRUSES. THAT IS ALL I AM GOING TO SAY ABOUT THAT.

[polaris20]

People certainly go out of their way to dismiss the fact that Mac OS X is a UNIX based system which is top in security in itself and Windows doesn't offer this. Although it's nonsense what you are saying, let just say it's true. What would be the incentive for me to buy a Windows PC? You make it sound like it's a good thing that Windows gets targeted more due to a larger market share. I could care less if I can get a Windows PC with okay specs for cheap, if my security is in jeopardy or if I have to fight tooth and nail to keep my system from getting spyware that will allow someone to steal my passwords and break into my online bank and wipe me dry then I'll pass and spend a little more money on a Mac.

And people certainly go out of their way to live in denial about OS X security because it's "based on Unix". So go ahead, turn that firewall off, it's not like anyone can hack OS X. Oh wait, it's been done.

You really don't understand the intent behind malware these days, do you? It's not done for fun or glory anymore, it's done for profit. Infected pc's getting turned into botnets sell to the highest bidder. Keyloggers getting credit card information, social security numbers etc.

Most if not all malware in the wild is written for Windows because it's simply the largest market share.

If you honestly think you'd be safer than Windows if the market share were 50/50, you're sadly misinformed.

Don't get me wrong, I love OS X. But I don't have fantasies of an unbreakable, invincible OS either.

Apple needs to get serious about security with Snow Leopard, otherwise there will be problems if their market share increases.

[Sehnsucht]

What? Macs cool? No way, PCs are way cooler. Do all sorts of popups and fancy prompts appear when your Mac boots? No, Why, because you're too busy trying to do work or make stuff pretty to HAVE FUN. Why, I love it every time Clippy comes to my aid in my windozing and tells me crap I don't care about, awesome! And virus scans... best 20 minutes of my life. Forget about features like Expose and Grab, give me the unreliable opening double click over these any day. Is my application opening? I don't know, that's part of the fun! If our computers worked the way they were supposed to all the time, wouldn't we get bored? All I have to say is the Dell craptop I saw the other day had like 100 buttons, How many buttons does your Mac have? Oh, that's right: less buttons = less fun. "I may be poor, but I ain't retarded".

Plus what are the specs of these "Bargain" craptops? Yeah it has 4GB of RAM but what about processor speed, wireless, Bluetooth, and a multi-touch trackpad? Can you really get a better package for less money in the Windows world?

Why is Boot Camp so crappy? No tap/click? WTF. And why does my damn graphics card still buzz whenever I have the screen brightness on lower than the maximum setting? Jeez, I feel like I have one of those craptops when I am Bootcamping. Windows made my Mac less cool ::(

Fixed that for you. :D

[Anuba]

Another reason why they cost less than comparable Macs but many people don't factor this when making all those comparisons.
Well... can you blame'em? Why would they make excuses on behalf of (or accept excuses from) the manufacturer? If Apple has some inherent inefficencies in their business model (such as having to develop an OS), that's their problem.

If you have two hot dog vendors and one wants $2 for a hot dog and the other one wants $3 because he has to walk way over there to get the ketchup and then way over to the other side to get the mustard, and he feels that this extra work is worth an extra $1, then most people are gonna go with the $2 hot dog from the guy who was smart enough to put the condiments at arm's length, naturally.

[Sehnsucht]

http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/3427670079_fa8f403233_b.jpg

That is ******** hilarious! :D

[drummingcraig]

I just wish Apple would make stuff with card slots and Blu-ray :( So long as they add them to the lineup then I'm happy :)

Is there a different kind of card slot you're referring to besides the ones that grace the side of my 2003 Powerbook and my 2009 MBP? :confused:

As for Blu-Ray...I can't imagine the difference being fully realized on a 15" screen when comparing movies. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd never see it and/or care.

The storage factor would be nice, but honestly its not gonna save me carrying at least one external FW drive. Most of the stuff I need to transfer either is small enough to fit on a regular DVD or a thumb drive, or is so large that it ain't gonna fit on a blu-ray disc anyway.

[Anuba]

You sure about that? I submit as evidence exhibit A :)

http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/3427670079_fa8f403233_b.jpg
Ha! Well well. This begs the question... is this some American tradition? Never seen anything like those ads over here, not in my part of Europe anyway. In Sweden it even used to be illegal to use the competition as a punching bag in advertising. It's not anymore, but still, no one goes there. On the rare occasion they might hint at the competition in a wink-wink-cough-ahem sort of way, but that's as far as they take it.

[tubbymac]

Ha! Well well. This begs the question... is this some American tradition? Never seen anything like those ads over here, not in my part of Europe anyway.

Well Audi and BMW have had a few pokes at each other before. Here's a bit of their back and forth from another ad campaign. It starts with BMW getting in the first jab,

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd263/carversation/840.jpg

Which is countered with this funny retort from Audi:

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd263/carversation/841.jpg

[Digital Skunk]

And while Adobe Photoshop for Mac isn't yet 64 bit, I'm currently able to open up 200 megapixel (MP) image files in the 32bit versions, as this takes only 2GB of RAM.

Considering that state-of-the-shelf 'Pro' level dSLR's are still at around 21MP, the number of Pros doing multi-layer HDR panoramic stitches is pretty small...the generic hobbiest can very easily afford to wait until 2010...which also means that the Mac version should probably be already Snow Leopard optimized, too.


-hh

The great part about Adobe, is that they know how to program. The production suite isn't 32bit either, but what they did was program the app as a bunch of 32 bit executables each taking up to 2GBs of RAM and spreading themselves across multiple cores.

When I read that, it solidified my belief that it's always going to be about the software 80% of the time.

Don't take that as me saying the hardware isn't important, but it's about that combo "1" "2" Punch of hard and software that makes the computing experience. The PC makers have half of it... Apple has the other half with a well designed hardware lineup.

[dwd3885]

How long would I need to keep an SD card connected, 30secs? Blu-ray movies have already been ripped and transferred over. The wireless mouse doesn't take up a usb port, which leaves plenty for charging/updating the iPhone, when necessary. Nah.... only my HP laptop truly sucked, and not in a small way.

I love how mac fanboys always try to talk themselves into why Apple gives them less ports, etc. Like, wait, I don't really need that. lol. It's kinda funny actually

[Digital Skunk]

I love how mac fanboys always try to talk themselves into why Apple gives them less ports, etc. Like, wait, I don't really need that. lol. It's kinda funny actually

Like the Onion says, "I never knew how much I hated the keyboard until Apple took it away."

It is a very Apple/Apple Fanboy/girl thing to do.

[Goona]

You sure about that? I submit as evidence exhibit A :)

http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/3427670079_fa8f403233_b.jpg

Is this ad for real, lol.

[omahajim]

removed

[DMann]

I love how mac fanboys always try to talk themselves into why Apple gives them less ports, etc. Like, wait, I don't really need that. lol. It's kinda funny actually

Funny, why? Do I really want to carry around six corded peripherals with me where ever I go? It's much funnier imagining that scenario. Come to think of it, I curse Apple for dropping the floppy drive - I have a s**tload of floppy discs from 20 years ago which I'd like to be able to load from time to time. Wireless keyboard, mouse - what need for extra USB ports?

[MacFly123]

Great article ad quotes from the Apple guy! :D

Here is my very truthful mockup of the world of computers! :)

Macs RULE!!! :p

P.S. That whole thing between Audio and BMW is pretty funny I think! haha.

[Eidorian]

Like the Onion says, "I never knew how much I hated the keyboard until Apple took it away."

It is a very Apple/Apple Fanboy/girl thing to do.I remember those days living in denial.

I'll stick with being a moderate.

[NT1440]

I love how mac fanboys always try to talk themselves into why Apple gives them less ports, etc. Like, wait, I don't really need that. lol. It's kinda funny actually

What about those of us who don't actually need a 6 in 1 card reader?

[pr5owner]

Hyundaaaiii . . . BMW . . . I'm going with the BMW. :D

i would rather go with a hyndai Genesis coupe 3.6L 300+ HP for the price of a low end 328 with no options.

but you have every right to hide behind a brand name.

[Eidorian]

What about those of us who don't actually need a 6 in 1 card reader?Uncheck that option from your hardware configuration.

[pr5owner]

What about those of us who don't actually need a 6 in 1 card reader?

dont need a card reader, i would assume you dont need your USB ports, firewire, eSATA, HDMI, hell just have NO PORTS on your laptop. no body needs them, you dont need a screen either, you can just imagine your desktop and imagine yourself doing some work.