Can I really justify a Mac Pro?

[thesheep]

Been working for a couple of years on a MBP Core 2 Duo 2.1GHz with 3GB RAM. It's OK but a little sluggish at times, and I'm running out of storage - external drives sprouting out all over the place.

I do lots of web graphics stuff with Photoshop+Illustrator, as well as run Parallels for testing in Windows web browsers.

I've realised that although it's nice to have the portability of a laptop, I hardly ever move it from the desk where it's plugged into my cinema display.

I'm debating the idea of buying a new Mac Pro but having trouble justifying the cost.

What puts me off is the fact that a top of the range 24" iMac with a 3.0GHz processor is £100 cheaper than the basic Mac Pro. Yet it comes with more RAM and a bigger hard drive and a full 24" screen. And from the benchmarking tests I've seen, in practice the iMac really isn't far behind the MP at all for the kind of stuff I do. The extra 2 cores not making a huge difference here. With that top iMac it almost feels like Apple is making it difficult for people to buy the MP.

But of course it's not that simple. I hate the glossy screen on the iMac and I already have a perfectly fine 23" cinema display with a nice matte screen. So I'm still leaning towards the MP. But the fact it costs so much and apparently doesn't look like a great deal next to the top iMac makes me hesitate.

I kind of assumed that a MP would beat an iMac hands down, but looking at the benchmarks on http://www.macworld.com/article/139507/2009/03/macpro2009.html I see that the 3.0GHz iMac is already faster than a Quad-core Woodcrest MP, and not too far behind the current ones. It trounces an old G5.

Anyone else in this kind of situation?

[dukebound85]

makr a hackintosh. its easy

[chrmjenkins]

What's your budget and how important is keeping a matte screen?

[OrangeSVTguy]

You can also always just use your 23" ACD as a primary display with the iMac but would be kinda a waste to have that 24" too if you don't like it. Kinda like that 15" display on your MBP.....

The MP will really only give you more internal storage and better graphics but if the iMac is enough for you, why buy the MP? Unless you like having all those external hard drives around.

[chrmjenkins]

You can also always just use your 23" ACD as a primary display with the iMac but would be kinda a waste to have that 24" too if you don't like it. Kinda like that 15" display on your MBP.....

The MP will really only give you more internal storage and better graphics but if the iMac is enough for you, why buy the MP? Unless you like having all those external hard drives around.

Well, depending upon his use of space, the imac storage may not be enough :eek:

[bigbird]

The MP is so much more a "professional" computer. It is built like a tank, is very easily user serviceable, and of course it is wickedly fast on certain apps. That being said, the iMac can do almost everything the MP can currently, at a lot cheaper price point. However that will change once Snow Leopard is released. Then there will be a much bigger performance gap between the iMac and MP. In our house there is an '08 dual quad MP, '05 iMac, '09 MacBook, and '09 Mini. My favorite to use? The Mini because of the size factor. My favorite to show to demonstrate to friends? The MP, because it's so fast and such a beast to look at.

[cmaier]

makr a hackintosh. its easy

Yeah, we get it. It's cheaper.

Now when will you get that this is not an option for the vast majority of folks who either don't have the expertise, or who do have the expertise but who have better things to do with their time, or who have expertise, free time, but who are morally inclined to live up to license agreements?

[dukebound85]

Yeah, we get it. It's cheaper.

Now when will you get that this is not an option for the vast majority of folks who either don't have the expertise, or who do have the expertise but who have better things to do with their time, or who have expertise, free time, but who are morally inclined to live up to license agreements?

good day to you too bud.......

but seriously, whats your issue?

i just said its an option:rolleyes:

[cmaier]

However that will change once Snow Leopard is released. Then there will be a much bigger performance gap between the iMac and MP.

That's complete speculation. And, at best, the gap will grow only when everyone starts releasing apps targeted to multi-processing. For things like cs4, it's going to be quite awhile.

[cmaier]

whats your issue?

i just said it as an option:rolleyes:

Was I not clear as to "my issue?"

Everytime anyone asks this kind of question, someone chimes in "hackintosh." And "hackintosh" is almost never a viable answer for the OP who asked for advice. We get it. You're a technically-proficient scofflaw. Now how about actually helping the OP out with some real advice?

[mobilehaathi]

....in practice the iMac really isn't far behind the MP at all for the kind of stuff I do....

I think this is the key point. Unless you're using/writing apps that take advantage of multicores and need to do some serious parallel number crunching, the MP simply won't carry the same value as the iMac. It seems those benchmarks you linked to were all serial tasks, which would explain why the 2.66 quad beat the 2.26 octo. No matter how many cores you have, if you're running a serial task, the high speed will do it faster (given the same grade hardware).

Snow Leopard is going to change some things, but I haven't read enough about what exactly they're doing to give an informed opinion.

I know what you mean about the glossy screen: I despise them too. I suppose if you did go with the iMac you could simply set up dual monitors and use the 23" as your primary one.....

[dukebound85]

Was I not clear as to "my issue?"

Everytime anyone asks this kind of question, someone chimes in "hackintosh." And "hackintosh" is almost never a viable answer for the OP who asked for advice. We get it. You're a technically-proficient scofflaw. Now how about actually helping the OP out with some real advice?

well you are not the op so you do not know if it may be an option for him or not.

i dont care much for your opinion on me just saying a hackintosh is an option. we know you dont like it, fine. im not suggesting it to you anyways, can you understand that?

unless my posts concerns you, mind your own:rolleyes:

[63dot]

Been working for a couple of years on a MBP Core 2 Duo 2.1GHz with 3GB RAM. It's OK but a little sluggish at times, and I'm running out of storage - external drives sprouting out all over the place.


Yes, you are the Mac Pro target customer.

[bozz2006]

part of the reason the imac is close to the mac pro in performance is because most software isn't very well for multiple processors or large amounts of RAM. over time that will change. $2500 spent on an imac will be be money well spent now, and it will be time to upgrade again in 2-3 years. With the mac pro, you have lots of potential that is not yet being tapped by the software developers, but it will be. so it will be good for 3-5 years. If you want to squeeze more use out of it, you have the ability to upgrade it for a a few hundred bucks here and there, meaning you could get even more years of use out of it. it's an easy choice if you ask me.

[zer0tails]

OP: get the mac pro and use it with your 23" ACD. It'll be the perfect set up.

Sure it costs more than the iMac but for the work you do and the amount of storage space you need, without a doubt the mac pro with its 4 storage bays is the perfect fit. Throw in the ability to up your ram and video card over the next 5 years and you shall be sitting pretty without having to start another thread like this asking advice because your imac is feeling sluggish.
:)

[xparaparafreakx]

Im close to your situation. I have a MBP 17" from 2006 I like to replace. I do a lot of *ucking around with CS 4 and once in a while do a major update to my schools webpage.

The iMac is so good of an option, pricewise. However I hate the though of the temps on the iMac. Core 2 Duo + a 4850 and HD slapped behind a monitor.

You have to buy a mini displayport to DVI to get your cinema display to work.

Run out of space, cheap internal SATA hard drive and slap it there. Nice and clean compare to having firewire 800 cables everywhere.

So im buying a Mac Pro in the summer, im still in college so I will get a free iPod touch with mine.

If you do not have the money, buy a used Mac Pro. Make friends with pawn shops. I check every week to see what they have.

[63dot]

part of the reason the imac is close to the mac pro in performance is because most software isn't very well for multiple processors or large amounts of RAM. over time that will change. $2500 spent on an imac will be be money well spent now, and it will be time to upgrade again in 2-3 years. With the mac pro, you have lots of potential that is not yet being tapped by the software developers, but it will be. so it will be good for 3-5 years. If you want to squeeze more use out of it, you have the ability to upgrade it for a a few hundred bucks here and there, meaning you could get even more years of use out of it. it's an easy choice if you ask me.

So many people, especially those who don't know a computer's true use, for what model it is, would still rather "look" cool and have a very expensive Macbook Pro, and show it off.

I had a chance to buy a $2500 dollar Powerbook, cash in hand, and it had ports I would never use, or I could spend $1600 and get an iBook and use almost everything on it. I went with the iBook.

Those higher end Mac laptops ($2500 for mid level model with 320 GB hard drive and dual processor) are best utilized if used fully. Otherwise, it's cheaper to buy the Mac Pro ($2500 for 640 GB hard drive, quad processor) and work, unseen, at home and get a lot more stuff done. :)

[kevink2]

If a year ago there had been a 4 core iMac that supported at least 8GB of RAM, and I hadn't already had a display I was going to use, I probably would have gone with the iMac. There still isn't a 4 core iMac :(

[m1stake]

However that will change once Snow Leopard is released. Then there will be a much bigger performance gap between the iMac and MP.

Someone else already mentioned this, but why do people think that Snow Leopard will unlock more of the Mac Pro than the iMac? If it provides a performance boost at all, it'll provide the same boost to everything. Spending an extra $500-$1000 because of speculation about a company that often fails to meet it's hype even half way isn't very smart.

[zmttoxics]

I've said it for years now. If you have to ask, the answer is no.
The MP no more capable then the iMac really, just another computer. Sure, its a hell of a computer, and a lot faster, but you can still do all of the same graphics / production work on an iMac. It will just take a little longer to process.

[Moriarty]

The main issue for you is the glossy screen on the iMac, which in your situation I would steer away from...

The Mac Pro, though more expensive, is almost twice as fast as the base iMac. You already have a 23" ACD...

I think it's worth the little extra, as it will take a lot longer to become obsolete than the iMac due to its extra speed. And it is easy to upgrade the graphics card, RAM & hard drives when you need, and the iMac may not offer all the storage you need in (only) one 1TB drive.

[bearcatrp]

Save yourself some cash and get a used 1st or 2nd generation mac pro. The 1st gen will have a quad core and can be upgraded to a 8 core when needed. 2nd gen already has 8 core and is faster. Depending on your budget, if you can fund a 2nd gen 2.8, go for it. Saw one for 1999.00 just recently.

[bozz2006]

Save yourself some cash and get a used 1st or 2nd generation mac pro. The 1st gen will have a quad core and can be upgraded to a 8 core when needed. 2nd gen already has 8 core and is faster. Depending on your budget, if you can fund a 2nd gen 2.8, go for it. Saw one for 1999.00 just recently.

fo sho. do this.

refurb 2008 2.8 8-core (http://store.apple.com/us/product/FA970LL/A?mco=MjE0NjQ1OA)

some used 2006 2.66ghz 4-core systems on ebay (http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=mac+pro+2.66&_sacat=See-All-Categories)

[Tesselator]

I second the hackintosh suggestion. #2 would be last years model. (like bozz2006 just said).

BTW, one can also describe a 2.66 eight-core Mac Pro as being "OK, but a little sluggish at times".

For web work in the various editors and PS stuff I wouldn't think more than a Mac Mini, laptop, or iMac at most would be needed tho. I hear you on the external storage but $3000 ~ $6000 is a little high for that convenience IMO. Especially aren't Apple storage vaults pretty reasonable by comparison?

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/mac_accessories/storage?n=desktop&mco=MTY1NDMxMw&s=priceLH

[twoodcc]

if you can afford it, get the mac pro. if you can't afford it, then don't get it

[kellen]

Get an older 2.8x8 refurb for 2399. You just missed the end of life on them for 1899 at the apple store.

Older systems seem to be near 2000 bucks on ebay for the first gen mac pro. A couple hundred more you get 8 cores and more importantly a warranty.

Could also save some more cash and get a refurb 2.8x4 MP for 1999 on apples refurb page.

Warranty would be my only concern buying an older MP. They hold their value so well older models aren't much cheaper than new ones.

I bought an end of life MP from apple. We had similar problems, already had the HD's, monitors and such. I also don't like an all in one. My biggest use is some light photo work and ripping of dvds.

[bigbird]

That's complete speculation.

Just repeating what Apple's been advertising.

Yeah, you're right, I made it all up. Snow leopard will be no different than 10.5.7.

[Cynicalone]

I hate to tell someone what to do in this situation, but I'll tell you how I ended up in the Mac Pro camp.

I love my iMac's still have 2 of them at the house. But the main iMac was starting to look like a FW800 party had broke out. I have a Drobo, and a half dozen external drives strung together. Also add a duplicate of everything here at home stored off site. Literally FW800 should pay me some royalties. :) When this spring my iMac started to beach ball on a regular basis I did what I always do in this situation I added more RAM. Help's for a little while but at the end of the day an iMac is not a workstation. Now a few hours of video editing or any extended period of encoding and I have CPU temps in the 90º Celsius range. I can't really run anything else on the iMac because I'm out of physical memory. I know OS X will shuffle the memory off to where I need it but eventually their just isn't anywhere else to squeeze some more RAM from.

So I started looking online at my choices I could go with the new iMac's with 8GB of RAM. Or I could take a chance and go with the Mac Pro and add RAM as I need it. So even though the initial cost is much steeper, I think in the long run it is a worthwhile investment. In time I can upgrade the graphics card or add up to 32GB of RAM. I still have access to my FW800 farm now with 4 FW800 ports instead of 1 on the iMac. I can upgrade the graphics card as needed. IF Blu-ray becomes an option in the future I can add a Blu-ray drive myself. The expandibility finally sold me on the Pro over another iMac. I'm guessing that Snow Leopard, and eventually Adobe will begin to use more of the multi-core technology in the Mac Pro.

[jjahshik32]

makr a hackintosh. its easy

I've tried the hackint0sh route many times (sony vaio TZ, dell inspiron q9300) it worked fine but some things it had glitches with. But in the end it felt like a broken version of OSX. Especially when new updates are released and trying to install those packages, just felt like might as well run windows vista.

[cmaier]

Just repeating what Apple's been advertising.

Nonsense. Where does Apple say that SL will disproportionately increase the speed of a MP vs an iMac?

[cmaier]

Yeah, you're right, I made it all up. Snow leopard will be no different than 10.5.7.

Yes, because I said it will be no different.

Or maybe I said it will be different, but may not disproportionately improve the MP vs. the iMac, unless software, yet to be written, takes advantage of more cores.

I'm amazed people still thing arguing by strawman works.

[thesheep]

Thanks for all the replies.

My feeling is that it's not a cut-and-dry situation and I'm still not really sure what I'll do.

I take the point about the MP being more expandable. Although it does grate a bit that the current quad-core only has 4 slots for RAM (the same as the iMac). Not super-expandable then! (What was Apple thinking of here?) Of course the 8-core has a lot more, but then that cost is looking way higher.

I'm also inclined to believe the people who say that the MP is just better engineered and so in the long run it's going to get less hot.

I had a quick look at second hand and refurb machines. But to my eyes those things all look pretty expensive. If I'm going to basically spend £2000 on a computer I kind of feel like it should be the latest architecture and the latest type of processor.

I guess my other option is to shore up my MBP for a while by putting in a bigger internal drive and re-installing OSX. Perhaps that will make it feel a bit more snappy. Shame I already hit the 3GB RAM maximum.

I guess I can't actually see myself actually buying the iMac with that glossy screen (although if I was in front of the iMac while I was buying it, of course I could see myself ;).

[bdellasc]

Hi there:

I posted a question about my buyer's remorse for an '08 Mac Pro 2.8 8-core refurb last week, and like others say, it really depends on your situation/what you do on it. I was able to get 6 years life out of my dual G4 1.25 tower with maxed out 2GB RAM, but more and more, I'm feeling the age of the system.

I do graphic design work (print and web), and for the little bit of Flash work I've gotten, its been EXTREMELY painful to work. The slow performance things like slow "Undos" and slow switching between tools (in most of my CS3 apps), and I've probably wasted dozens of hours time wrestling with the symptoms of my 6-year-old system.

In the past, I have considered purchasing an iMac, but given all the design work I do, an all-in-one solution just wasn't for me. I like options. I like expandability. I like a system to grow as I do...without having to run out and buy a new system. I'm also a refurb convert. My current system was a refurb, and its been a great system. I run Tiger on it without issue. It still boots in about 10-15 seconds...show me a 6-year-old Windoze system that can do that. But even this system has reached its limits for me and the direction I want to take my work. Another thing I want to try my hand @ is 3-D work and maybe some animation. The problem was, that my system couldn't handle it.

My dual G4 mirror door system will find a new home with my partner as a master music system to two slave windows systems, so I feel good that it won't sit and collect dust. Because I'll now be able to virtualize Windows on the new system, I can also ditch my cheap Compaq that I got to do work for one of my clients...this is becoming part of his music setup as well. Many of the composers he admires have similar setups even with G3 blue towers...so I know this one will work for him.

So, whenever I can save some $$ (about $600 less than the exact same system config on Amazon) and get a pretty recent system (The one I ordered last week is only about 6-month old) that I know will grow with my needs, I go for it. If I can get 6+ years out of my old dualie G4 mirror door system, I'm sure I can get as much, if not longer out of my new Mac Pro...

And on top of that, I have an "extra" $600 that I can use to buy some memory/drive upgrades too...

Good luck with your decision! I know folks' feedback on here have helped me feel better about the decision I made...

[chrmjenkins]

Thanks for all the replies.

My feeling is that it's not a cut-and-dry situation and I'm still not really sure what I'll do.

I take the point about the MP being more expandable. Although it does grate a bit that the current quad-core only has 4 slots for RAM (the same as the iMac). Not super-expandable then! (What was Apple thinking of here?) Of course the 8-core has a lot more, but then that cost is looking way higher.

I'm also inclined to believe the people who say that the MP is just better engineered and so in the long run it's going to get less hot.

I had a quick look at second hand and refurb machines. But to my eyes those things all look pretty expensive. If I'm going to basically spend £2000 on a computer I kind of feel like it should be the latest architecture and the latest type of processor.

I guess my other option is to shore up my MBP for a while by putting in a bigger internal drive and re-installing OSX. Perhaps that will make it feel a bit more snappy. Shame I already hit the 3GB RAM maximum.

I guess I can't actually see myself actually buying the iMac with that glossy screen (although if I was in front of the iMac while I was buying it, of course I could see myself ;).

Is this sluggishness of your MBP due to your processor, or is your hard drive lagging? A comparatively inexpensive hard drive solution is to get a SSD.

[dollystereo]

Look at the refurb, get the 08 Eight core 2.8GHZ mac pro. In single thread work it will be near the Imac, and in multi core apps, it will fly!
You cant have it for 2399, and with some cash you can throw some Ram and HDs.
Good Luck.

[js81]

I know its been said before, but...

+1 for the Mac Pro.

Better expandability, longer (potential) lifespan, better resale value, etc, etc.

[63dot]

I know its been said before, but...

+1 for the Mac Pro.

Better expandability, longer (potential) lifespan, better resale value, etc, etc.

Yes, but people should realize that while the resale value is better, even much better than a consumer system, it's still not all that high. Thanks to eBay and Craigslist. Great for buyers of used computer gear, not for sellers.

[Firefly2002]

Buy a used Quad-core.... or wait for Nehalem in quad-core to hit the iMac. You really don't need that much.

[Mariusz1977]

Just curious, will the apple store allow you to bring in a disk of project files to test on one of their machines?

In order to answer the question of whether the mac pro is justified costwise, you need to start at the beginning and find out "does the mac pro solve my sluggishness problem? Only you can answer that question with your specific projects. The ideal situation is that you want to "test drive" the mac pro in a way that is no cost to you!