Apple Continues 'Get a Mac' Ad Campaign with 4 New Ads [Archive] - Page 2

Goona

Apr 20, 2009, 02:54 PM

What's YOUR point? The utterly false car analogy?

How about if the 15000 Kia had the same engine, the same gearbox, the same chassis, the same suspension, the same steering wheel, the same bodywork....but lacked the AMG alloys and leather interior.

Which, then, offers better value.

Yeah but they all do the same bloody thing, get you from point A to B. You also pay for the Mercedes brand premium. Why do you think Mercedes charges more for their cars than Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, etc. Apple has a higher brand than all those PC companies, studies also show Apple has the highest satisfaction rates in the industry while the rates for the PC companies are dropping through the toilet because they can't match the experience Apple provides. Apple also differentiates themselves through their superior OS and software solutions. What software solutions does HP and Dell develop? When you add in all that I'm willing to pay a premium to buy from Apple because at the end of the day I care about how satisfied I'll be about my purchase and not how cheap the computer is.

God the car analogy is SOOOOOOOOO STUUUUUUUUUUUPID.

Oh its stupid because it makes your point useless eh.

diamond.g

Apr 20, 2009, 02:55 PM

djellison

Apr 20, 2009, 03:00 PM

Yes - because a £130k Gallardo really is made of the same components as a £15k 1.9 litre Audi A3.
:rolleyes:

Stop it. Please. Just stop it.

flopticalcube

Apr 20, 2009, 03:01 PM

weaksauce

Apr 20, 2009, 03:02 PM

As it happens - yes. A Kia Rio, and Kia Picanto (both owned by my other halves mother). And most recently, a Merc C180 (rented for a weekend for a long trip to Kendal)

But the analogy is totally false. Mac's are not a Merc compared to a Kia PC.

Merc's are made of better parts, more powerfull engines, cunning suspension, trick differentials, an amazing stereo,

Mac's and PC's are built with the same parts, from the same manufacturers, and even built by the same people in the same factories.

So - if you want to use a car analogy - you need to find two cars with all the same components, with a different label on the bonnet, and massively difference price tags.

The car analogy is utterly utterly false in every way. I suggest YOU stay away from it.

So better software, a better build quality, better materials...lets see. Well Apple has often practiced a unique philosophy of engineering in making something elegant but also simple and stresses quality as well. Can you say the same about HP, Compaq or Dell? Also, while a Mac and a PC have circuits and hard drives and electrical components from the same manufacturers, are they assembles into a computer in the same way? Also, last I checked and correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't Apple stay away from buying 2nd rate components for use in their computers while some PC companies are happy to put a component that skidded by QC in their computers?

A Kia has an engine as does a Merc (and in keeping with the original analogy of a $90,000 Merc, a C180 is...well short) and while one is made in Germany and the other in Korea they are both cars. You're in the UK right?

Ask Clarkeson, Hammond or May...well maybe not May to illustrate the differences in cars and price points and MAYBE you'll get an inkling to the car analogy.

cjm3113

Apr 20, 2009, 03:02 PM

Nissan -> Infiniti, Honda -> Acura, Toyota -> Lexus, Chevy -> Cadillac. In some cases VW -> Audi -> Lamborghini

I know it isn't two exact vehicles, but it does count because the latter is (in many cases) the former with just a different label.

Exactly, so then you need to say..

If you could buy a Pontiac Solstice or Saturn Sky, the same car with two different tags.

Now make one $40,000 and the other $30,000.

The car analogy favors Microsoft, not Apple.

Goona

Apr 20, 2009, 03:02 PM

Nissan -> Infiniti, Honda -> Acura, Toyota -> Lexus, Chevy -> Cadillac. In some cases VW -> Audi -> Lamborghini

I know it isn't two exact vehicles, but it does count because the latter is (in many cases) the former with just a different label.

I remember I use to have an Infiniti I30, it was the exact same model as a Nissan Maxima just with a different exterior styling, everything inside was the same, same engine but yet the Infiniti commanded a premium compared to the Nissan even though its from the same company.

Infinit's has a higher brand than Nissan so they charge a higher premium. That's the just how the world works. Some Louis Vuitton bags cost almost a thousand dollars but you can get some cheap knockoffs for like 50 dollars or even cheaper bags for like a 100 dollars but because it's a Louis Vuitton it commands that price.

I wonder why the Dell Adamo costs more than the Macbook Air even though the components ain't as good, I thought all PC's were cheap? :rolleyes:

cjm3113

Apr 20, 2009, 03:07 PM

I wonder why the Dell Adamo costs more than the Macbook Air even though the components ain't as good, I thought all PC's were cheap? :rolleyes:

What are you trying to prove besides making Apple supporters look like fools. You are now using the exception to try to make a point?

Apple computers cost more than PCs, we all accept that. We choose to buy them anyways because we prefer them.

Double J

Apr 20, 2009, 03:09 PM

Oh its stupid because it makes your point useless eh.

No it's stupid because it falls apart for cars almost as bad as it does for computers. Take my friend who paid $45,000 for a BMW M3. For the first six months he did little more than wax it because he was so afraid to get a scratch on it. WTF is the point of having a ridiculously expensive trophy? Meanwhile I spent $10,000 on a used Outback that will run forever, can go absolutely anywhere, and costs nothing to maintain outside of oil changes. Wow, he can go faster than me occasionally on a dry road and get $500 speeding tickets -- what an incredible investment that was. Meanwhile, who has to drive when we go snowboarding? Who has to rescue him from his apartment when so much as an inch of snow falls? And who looks like a rich showoff d-bag with penis issues to 90% of people around him?

Goona

Apr 20, 2009, 03:11 PM

What are you trying to prove besides making Apple supporters look like fools. You are now using the exception to try to make a point?

Apple computers cost more than PCs, we all accept that. We choose to buy them anyways because we prefer them.

Look like fools eh, I guess every PC costs the same, it's ok for Sony to charge more than Dell or HP but Apple who builds their own operating system charges more and everybody is up in flames. Dell actually builds a computer to compete with an Air and it ends up costing more but I don't see everybody lining up with pitchforks ready to torture them. :rolleyes:

mrochester

Apr 20, 2009, 03:12 PM

I think it's odd that Apple seems to be spending more time telling us why Windows computers are bad rather than telling us why Macs are good. The problem is that there are a *LOT* of people who don't have any of the problems that the PC has in the adverts (me included!), and therefore don't identify with that character. As such, it seems the Mac adverts only target those Windows users who do have those types of problems, and it's almost as if Apple have castrated their target market.

Maybe they've done this deliberately though, as it is easier to sway a customer who is not satisifed with their current product. Equally, it would be more difficult to sway the opinion of a person who is satisified with their Microsoft product, as all they would see in the Mac is a tool which does the same things, but costs more.

As such, this seems very much like a consious decision by Apple to market to Windows users who are disatified rather than to try and change the opinion of those who are satisified. This fills me with mixed thoughts...

A) The market of disatisifed Windows users is apparently quite large (although satisfaction surveys also includes hardware and hardware support, not just the software, so it's probably not as bad as these reports make out), so there is a big pool of potential customers (good thing).

and

B) Apple don't think their product is strong enough to tempt those who aren't disatisfied with Windows (bad thing).

I'd really like Apple to start pushing the good things about a Mac so that even satisified Windows users would consider buying one.

1) Macs don't get viruses - I don't care, I spent 5 minutes installing a free anti-viruses that keeps an eye on my system and installs updates automatically.

NEXT!

2) Macs don't need many updates, and they do them without a fuss - Macs need updates just like Windows. Windows downloads updates silently in the background, and tells you when they are installed.

NEXT!

3) Macs don't crash, freeze or lockup - Vista rarely crashes, and my friends iMac locked up within 30 minutes of it coming out of the box.

NEXT!

4) Macs are user friendly, and everything is easy to find and use - I already know how to use Windows, so I too can find everything quickly and use it easily.

NEXT!

and so on and so forth. I want to be told why I *NEED* or should *WANT* a Mac, but I'm not really hearing it from Apple!

cjm3113

Apr 20, 2009, 03:13 PM

Look like fools eh, I guess every PC costs the same, it's ok for Sony to charge more than Dell or HP but Apple who builds their own operating system charges more and everybody is up in flames. Dell actually builds a computer to compete with an Air and it ends up costing more but I don't see everybody lining up with pitchforks ready to torture them. :rolleyes:

Apple consistently charges more than PCs for a machine that has identical or extremely similar hardware.

randomusername

Apr 20, 2009, 03:23 PM

I think they should drop the Mac guy and the PC guy (even though John is adorable) and just have an ad featuring a Mac computer and a PC that is similar. And then they can talk about the actual features that blow Windows away. Now these Microsoft's ads for Windows and Apple's Mac ads are just flaming each other and not actually showing the benefits of either OS (I know the PC ads are saying that PCs are cheaper, but all of the computers they've shown are ****). Apple needs to step it up, ad wise.

But the ads were still hilarious.

Goona

Apr 20, 2009, 03:26 PM

Apple consistently charges more than PCs for a machine that has identical or extremely similar hardware.

Yeah I guess it must be the same reason Sony consistently charges more than other PC's for a a machine that has identical or extremely similar hardware.

bedifferent

Apr 20, 2009, 03:26 PM

Exactly, so then you need to say..

If you could buy a Pontiac Solstice or Saturn Sky, the same car with two different tags.

Now make one $40,000 and the other $30,000.

The car analogy favors Microsoft, not Apple.

Oh SO WRONG. My family is in the car business, selling Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti, Volkswagen/Audi/Porsche (as well as BMW, Land Rover), and while parent companies that sell luxury vehicles may utilize certain aspects of their "economy" based line they are NOT the same. I have owned an Inifiniti FX45 (2007) which is not based on any Nissan platform (some assume it is based on the Nissan Murano which is it not). They are completely different vehicles. As is the G line and the newly released Infiniti G convertible. The only Nissan/Infiniti model that is related in frame is the top of the line SUV, the Q line, to the Nissan Armada - but that thing needs it's own gas station. The Lexus GS, IS, and SC are independent lines from their Toyota division. The Lexus LX shares its frame with the Toyota Landcruiser, the Lexus ES used to share its frame with the Toyota Camry, and the Lexus SC used to share its frame with the Toyota Solara (that has since changed). Volkswagen only shares it's Tourag with their luxury line Porsche Cayenne, and those two vehicles have COMPLETELY different engines (no one in their right mind would state that any Porsche is any thing similar to its Volkswagen line). Audi used to share frames with their Volkswagen division yet with the newly released A line that has changed.

In short, while a handful (meaning 2-3) luxury divisions may utilize the frames of their "economy" division line, most do not. As well, the engines and interiors of Lexus/Nissan/Audi/Porsche are completely different from their other divisions. Torque, horsepower, Lexus' hybrid "-h" line, liters, etc. are very much different from their other divisions. No one in the automobile industry would ever state that a Porsche Cayenne is similar to its Volkswagen Tourag, or that the Lexus LX470 is similar to its Toyota Landcruiser, or that an Infiniti G35 is similar to the Maxima (Nissan has completely revamped its Infiniti line since the "I" series, as I used to drive BMW's I have since fallen in love with the Infiniti lineup, they are excellent cars and any serious car aficionado will agree that Infiniti is nothing like Nissan). Audi's DUST Volkswagen's any day of the week (with the exception of the decommissioned Phaeton, topping out with a W12 450 HP, shared parts with Bentley and Audi).

Some of you may know computers more than I, however when it comes to auto's, sorry, don't go there. Stating that luxury automobile manufacturers simply rebadge their economy based divisions with higher price tags is simply ignorance. NO ***** WAY. Stating that a Lexus is like a Toyota, or an Audi or Porsche like a Volkswagen, or even a BMW like a Mini Cooper, and making further claims from there, is so wrong I can not even stress it enough.

FYI Saturn is the old Oldsmobile, and while GM may own Saturn I would certainly not claim that Saturn or Pontiac are "luxury" vehicles. Further, GM also bought out Volvo and Saab, hence why their quality has slipped in the past few years.

FF_productions

Apr 20, 2009, 03:28 PM

"Future PC just froze."

"Oh, that answers that question."

Lol, gotta love em.

cjm3113

Apr 20, 2009, 03:31 PM

Oh SO WRONG. My family is in the car business, selling Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti, Volkswagen/Audi/Porsche, and while parent companies that sell luxury vehicles may utilize certain aspects of their "economy" based line they are NOT the same. I have owned an Inifiniti FX45 (2007) which is not based on any Nissan platform (some assume it is based on the Nissan Murano which is it not). They are completely different vehicles. As is the G line and the newly released Infiniti G convertible. The only Nissan/Infiniti model that is related in frame is the top of the line SUV, the Q line. The Lexus GS, IS, and SC are independent lines from their Toyota division. The Lexus LX shares its frame with the Toyota Landcruiser, the Lexus ES used to share its frame with the Toyota Camry, and the Lexus SC used to share its frame with the Toyota Solara (that has since changed). Volkswagen only shares it's Tourag with their luxury line Porsche Cayenne, and those two vehicles have COMPLETELY different engines (no one in their right mind would state that any Porsche is any thing similar to its Volkswagen line). Audi used to share frames with their Volkswagen division yet with the newly released A line that has changed.

In short, while a handful (meaning 2-3) luxury divisions may utilize the frames of their "economy" division line, most do not. As well, the engines and interiors of Lexus/Nissan/Audi/Porsche are completely different from their other divisions. Torque, horsepower, Lexus' hybrid "-h" line, liters, etc. are very much different from their other divisions. No one in the automobile industry would ever state that a Porsche Cayenne is similar to its Volkswagen Tourag, or that the Lexus LX470 is similar to its Toyota Landcruiser, or that an Infiniti G35 is similar to the Maxima (Nissan has completely revamped its Infiniti line since the "I" series, as I used to drive BMW's I have since fallen in love with the Infiniti lineup, they are excellent cars and any serious car aficionado will agree that Infiniti is nothing like Nissan). Audi's DUST Volkswagen's any day of the week (with the exception of the decommissioned Phaeton, topping out with a W12 450 HP, shared parts with Bentley and Audi).

Some of you may know computers more than I, however when it comes to auto's, sorry, don't go there. Stating that luxury automobile manufacturers simply rebadge their economy based divisions with higher price tags is simply ignorance. NO ***** WAY. Stating that a Lexus is like a Toyota, or an Audi or Porsche like a Volkswagen, or even a BMW like a Mini Cooper, and making further claims from there, is so wrong I can not even stress it enough.

FYI Saturn is the old Oldsmobile, and while GM may own Saturn I would certainly not claim that Saturn or Pontiac are "luxury" vehicles. Further, GM also bought out Volvo and Saab, hence why their quality has slipped in the past few years.

Ha, you just did all of that for?

I never claimed Saturn nor Pontiac to be luxury vehicles. I never claimed that higher lines claimed to rebadge a vehicle and sell it for more. For some one claiming that you know so much about autos I find it funny that you start with "Oh so wrong."

The Sky and the Solstice are identical cars. They have the same engine, the same frame, but slightly different styling. I really have no clue what you were trying to say with your post.

My point was that most people would find it foolish to buy one for $10,000 more because of the styling. As many people would find it foolish to pay more for a Mac because of different styling.

Bashing Mac? Absolutely not, I love mine. I just hate the car analogies.

stainlessliquid

Apr 20, 2009, 03:33 PM

So basically 1 out of 4 commercials manage to advertise macs. At least one of them do it this time.

bedifferent

Apr 20, 2009, 03:33 PM

Ha, you just did all of that for?

I never claimed Saturn nor Pontiac to be luxury vehicles. I never claimed that higher lines claimed to rebadge a vehicle and sell it for more. For some one claiming that you know so much about autos I find it funny that you start with "Oh so wrong."

The Sky and the Solstice are identical cars. They have the same engine, the same frame, but slightly different styling. I really have no clue what you were trying to say with your post.

Simply the claim that since some cars are alike and use the same parts, therefore some computer companies do the same (and not just from you, this is directed to a lot of others on Macrumors, I just happened to read your comment which is what prompted this response). Second, you are making sweeping assumptions about cars and lines, hence my comment.

Ugh, forget this, it's the same exact handful of people that turn EVERY thread into a fight between mac and windows. I simply know the car analogies some try to throw around are false. Seriously guys, give it a rest. It's annoying that after all these years a few people are hijacking Macrumors into fights about whose package is bigger and how they're great cause they're a bunch of obsessed gamers living at home and spending all their money on a suped up beige box that is faster and "cooler" and cheaper than Apple hardware. Great, I'll run down to the local mall and grab that poster of one of Manet's paintings, after all, a Manet is simply an expensive piece of art that anyone can get cheaper.

zombitronic

Apr 20, 2009, 03:54 PM

There's got to be a more apt comparison between PCs and Macs that makes a lot more sense.

Mac = bottled water

Windows = bottled water backwash

Linux = tap water

diamond.g

Apr 20, 2009, 04:35 PM

Oh SO WRONG.<snip>

FYI Saturn is the old Oldsmobile, and while GM may own Saturn I would certainly not claim that Saturn or Pontiac are "luxury" vehicles. Further, GM also bought out Volvo and Saab, hence why their quality has slipped in the past few years.
I may not know a lot about some of the other auto manufacturers you were talking about but Nissan and Infiniti share platforms. The FM one is the major one shared. Out of it comes the G35/37 (coupe/sedan) the 350Z/370Z M35/M45. In the case of the V6 used it is the same for all the vehicles just tuned differently, Intake/exhaust and displacement are the major differences. Nissan has a few platforms that they use to reduce costs across lines. Now the chassis designation is different for the models but that doesn't mean that they don't share parts.

Now as far as the whole Audi and Gallardo comment. No I don't expect everything from the Gallardo to be on the Audi. I would figure they share parts where it makes sense though.

bedifferent

Apr 20, 2009, 04:42 PM

I may not know a lot about some of the other auto manufacturers you were talking about but Nissan and Infiniti share platforms. The FM one is the major one shared. Out of it comes the G35/37 (coupe/sedan) the 350Z/370Z M35/M45. In the case of the V6 used it is the same for all the vehicles just tuned differently, Intake/exhaust and displacement are the major differences. Nissan has a few platforms that they use to reduce costs across lines. Now the chassis designation is different for the models but that doesn't mean that they don't share parts.

Now as far as the whole Audi and Gallardo comment. No I don't expect everything from the Gallardo to be on the Audi. I would figure they share parts where it makes sense though.

FM one? You mean FX? No, that is not shared. The FX does not share the same body or engine as any Nissan vehicle. I own an 2007 FX45 (the 2009 FX line is RIDICULOUS, completely revamped and blowing the X5 out of the water) and a 2008 G35x, nothing about those vehicles is anything similar to a Nissan. Not the Altima, Maxima. The M class competes with the Lexus LS and BMW 5 series, the M line shares no major components with any Nissan vehicle.

MacAndy74

Apr 20, 2009, 04:43 PM

True, but largely hypothetical. Mac will never come even close to PC level market share, at least if they intend to maintain a 25-30% profit margin. Without a large market share, and especially in government and business, the Mac just isn't a profitable target for serious malware proliferators.

:) and I'll be really glad if it stays that way. Good point!

Eidorian

Apr 20, 2009, 04:47 PM

I still wonder why Apple is able to include iLife on every new Mac, but Microsoft is forced to remove their equivalent, the Windows Live Essentials suite (Mail, Photo Gallery, Movie Maker, Messenger, Writer, etc.), and offer it as a free download.Bloat removal for the most part. Keep in mind that iLife is around 8-10 GB.

MacAndy74

Apr 20, 2009, 04:48 PM

Well MS doesn't know how to brand anything, except their users as cheap losers. Which might be unintentional on their part (back to branding incompetence), but it's still unfortunate for the user base. Their ads portray their products, their partners' products, and their users as just plain ugly, both visually and in terms of taste.

SJ was right, so long ago. MS really has no taste.

I agree. And what's worse is that Microsoft actually paid some advertising company to produce these Ad's... Yeah, it's exactly like saying 'We make a flawed product that runs on cheap plasticky computers - buy a PC!' :rolleyes:

MacAndy74

Apr 20, 2009, 04:55 PM

Here's an idea for a new 'Get a Mac' Ad.

Oh look PC, you have a dock in Windows too now. Oh yeah, I forget... 'Superbar'...

:D

diamond.g

Apr 20, 2009, 05:01 PM

FM one? You mean FX? No, that is not shared. The FX does not share the same body or engine as any Nissan vehicle. I own an 2007 FX45 (the 2009 FX line is RIDICULOUS, completely revamped and blowing the X5 out of the water) and a 2008 G35x, nothing about those vehicles is anything similar to a Nissan. Not the Altima, Maxima. The M class competes with the Lexus LS and BMW 5 series, the M line shares no major components with any Nissan vehicle.

No, the FM Platform. (G3x/3x0Z/M). The Nissan D Platform (Maxima/Murano/Altima). The Nissan FF-S Platform (X-Trail/Bluebird/Primera[G20]). This Nissan F-Alpha Platform (QX56/Titan/Pathfinder/XTerra). That is what I meant by the whole sharing thing. Most of the platforms share engine configurations as well as drivetrain options. I remember wishing the G20 came with the rest of the configs the Primera came with (same car). What is odd is the Infinity G3x line is really the Skyline in Japan whereas they dropped the Skyline name from the GT-R. Nissan has cleaned up the crossings more so now than they used to be, but there are still parts shared. The G35x shares the AWD system from the GT-R (albeit the R34 most likely). Most of us are bummed that Nissan won't do a 2+2 of the GT-R and badge it as an Infiniti...

On subject. While Apple uses similar components as a normal PC, they do have their own twist. So like in the G37/350Z example parts are share, but they are still different vehicles. Side note the G37 is basically the 2+2 of the 370Z, which was an odd split. They could have kept the Primera and just made it AWD to get around the whole no FWD vehicle thing they stick with.

sn00pie

Apr 20, 2009, 05:05 PM

I found the Time Machine ad to be the best one.

bedifferent

Apr 20, 2009, 05:12 PM

On subject. While Apple uses similar components as a normal PC, they do have their own twist. So like in the G37/350Z example parts are share, but they are still different vehicles. Side note the G37 is basically the 2+2 of the 370Z, which was an odd split. They could have kept the Primera and just made it AWD to get around the whole no FWD vehicle thing they stick with.

Exactly.

While there may be similarities, they're still very different beasts. Forgot about the Z, good point., didn't realize the 37 was the body style as the Z. Makes sense. All things considered, Nissan has done a lot in drawing the line between the two divisions. As far as I know, the FX platform is completely independent. The GT-R would have been sweet as a suped up Infiniti. I'm surprised it never made it's way in with the convertible. It's already $80k+, then again not much of a mass luxury market for it (although compared to the 6 series there's definitely a market). With Volkswagen's failed market attempt with the Phaeton, I wonder how the GT-R will hold up. There's a Q replacement coming up with twin turbo's. Should be interesting.

Obi-Wan Kubrick

Apr 20, 2009, 05:14 PM

These ads were okay. I liked the one that actually promoted the facial recognition. Otherwise they were just okay.

Anuba

Apr 20, 2009, 05:26 PM

These ads were okay. I liked the one that actually promoted the facial recognition. Otherwise they were just okay.
Yeah, it was nice that they highlighted a feature. On the other hand, it made iPhoto '08 look like crap. This is how their own product worked up until 3 months ago. Hodgman might as well be using that in this ad.

Reminds me of a Windows 98 ad where Win98 was illustrated as a jar of pills, and the tagline read "No more headaches". So... wait... Windows 95 gives people headaches, is that what you're saying? You knew all along?

So yeah, basically it's never a good idea to admit that your previous product was crap. Which it wasn't in this case (iPhoto 08 was good), but if Apple thinks locating photos like that is sooooo crappy, then they must've thought that iPhoto 08 was really crappy.

Red-red

Apr 20, 2009, 06:00 PM

NT1440

Apr 20, 2009, 06:04 PM

Yeah, it was nice that they highlighted a feature. On the other hand, it made iPhoto '08 look like crap. This is how their own product worked up until 3 months ago. Hodgman might as well be using that in this ad.

Reminds me of a Windows 98 ad where Win98 was illustrated as a jar of pills, and the tagline read "No more headaches". So... wait... Windows 95 gives people headaches, is that what you're saying? You knew all along?

So yeah, basically it's never a good idea to admit that your previous product was crap. Which it wasn't in this case (iPhoto 08 was good), but if Apple thinks locating photos like that is sooooo crappy, then they must've thought that iPhoto 08 was really crappy.

:confused:

Improvements don't make previous generations crap, and why does it even matter when its not the product anymore.

bedifferent

Apr 20, 2009, 06:09 PM

:confused:

Improvements don't make previous generations crap, and why does it even matter when its not the product anymore.

Exactly. Does that mean Vista makes XP looks like crap? Oh, wait...

Hellium

Apr 20, 2009, 06:19 PM

Pfft. Too superficial
I mean look at the end, why will the "PC" say Windows is trouble free to jus amuse the cool godly "mac" by showing him the all that cute fine print.

Be real.

Anuba

Apr 20, 2009, 06:20 PM

:confused:

Improvements don't make previous generations crap, and why does it even matter when its not the product anymore.
Did the way PC sorted photos look incredibly crappy? Then iPhoto '08 was incredibly crappy because it didn't have face recognition either. But iPhoto 08 wasn't crappy.

Still don't get it? OK, ficticious example. Let's say Apple decides to remove the keyboard on all their portable products and replace it with, I dunno, air gestures.

The ad: "Hi, I'm a Mac..."
"...and I'm a PC."
"Whatcha got there, PC?"
"Oh, I'm typing on my mechanical keyboard."
"YOU STILL HAVE A MECHANICAL KEYBOARD? OMG PUKE VOMIT BARF EWWWWWW THAT IS SO 1943 ROTFL BLEEEHHHHH!!!"

Message to owners of current Macs: "Hi, we're Apple, and up until yesterday we've been making products that make us want to puke. Congratulations, you own one."

Still nothing?

Satori

Apr 20, 2009, 06:43 PM

Apple consistently charges more than PCs for a machine that has identical or extremely similar hardware.

Shallow comparison...

What about the OS (including productivity increases), security considerations, bundled software etc?

iOrlando

Apr 20, 2009, 06:44 PM

i saw all 4. they were pretty funny. i liked them

Funkdafide

Apr 20, 2009, 06:48 PM

It's called the Aesthetic-Usability Effect. Aesthetic designs are perceived as easier to use than less-aesthetic designs. It's a proven fact. Given this point, who cares whether a Mac is more expensive, more functional or easier to use. As long as the consumer perceives the machine to be more functional, it really doesn't matter if it is or not. This is the best thing Mac has done. But in terms of pricepoint, they really need to start convincing people that the price is truly justifiable. Mac lovers love these Mac ads because it makes them feel good about their loyalty to the brand.

How many people understand how their cars work? Few. How many people even know how to change their oil on their cars? Ignorance is not bliss, it means you're lazy and retarded. I personally feel gullible shelling out nearly $3000 for my new mbp. I've used pc's my whole life so I'm no stranger to the other side of the fence. True, pc's are more challenging to understand and keep on track, but for the most part I find computer users to be ignorant of the technology they love so much. Most mac users I've talked to don't want to know how the computer works they just want the damn thing to work. (CORRECTION: this is biased. In reality, pretty much any computer user is guilty of this, PC or Mac.)

I do enjoy using my mac, I just haven't figured out why yet. I don't see any great improvement over a pc product, nor do I find it really functions more effectively. In the end, I kind of feel like an idiot. But at least I feel like an idiot holding a REALLY nice looking laptop.

NT1440

Apr 20, 2009, 06:49 PM

Did the way PC sorted photos look incredibly crappy? Then iPhoto '08 was incredibly crappy because it didn't have face recognition either. But iPhoto 08 wasn't crappy.

Still don't get it? OK, ficticious example. Let's say Apple decides to remove the keyboard on all their portable products and replace it with, I dunno, air gestures.

The ad: "Hi, I'm a Mac..."
"...and I'm a PC."
"Whatcha got there, PC?"
"Oh, I'm typing on my mechanical keyboard."
"YOU STILL HAVE A MECHANICAL KEYBOARD? OMG PUKE VOMIT BARF EWWWWWW THAT IS SO 1943 ROTFL BLEEEHHHHH!!!"

Message to owners of current Macs: "Hi, we're Apple, and up until yesterday we've been making products that make us want to puke. Congratulations, you own one."

Still nothing?

Who, when viewing a commercial on TV, goes into their head and thinks about previous generations of software? The ad is clearly highlighting a new "here and now" feature.

Also, these ads are clearly not aimed at current mac users.

trevpimp

Apr 20, 2009, 06:58 PM

I don't understand why they don't just do the exact same thing they do with the iphone ad's but on a Mac.

It would give people a chance to see how a Mac works and the real differences involved.

Show something, quick, snappy, informative and more importantly... Mac. Not just two people stood talking?

The iphone ads have sold a hell of a lot of iphones because it shows just how easy it is to use and the benefits you get from it. Mac's are exactly the same when you compare them to a PC... show it.

Exactly. And They Should Show Some Points To Tell People That You Pay For You Get. Apple Wouldnt Sell This Much If People Were Actually Getting Ripped Off.

Look at the Xbox 360? People complained about it, because the reliability was low, now we have lots of people looking elsewhere because of this. Do we have people regretting their purchase of a mac? Even if they paid an arm and a leg?

Trust me theres people out there that dont have that much money (like me) and when they buy their macs, they are going to make sure its "perfect" and that they got "what they paid for". They want it to be worth the extra money compared to PCs. And I haven't seen not one complain yet.

Apple needs to show that. :apple:

Hugh

Apr 20, 2009, 07:18 PM

Except they aren't as especially the first two sum up issues that also affect the Mac. You can't avoid installing software updates on the Mac :rolleyes:.

Biohazard Suit: :rolleyes:
Legal Copy: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Stacks: :cool::cool::cool:
Time Traveller: meh

Huh? :confused: You can avoid of installing software updates on the Mac. I do it all the time. I wait until to see how that update is doing before doing the update. Hell it took me, what 2 weeks now to install iTunes 8.1 (I finally installed it).

Hugh

Anuba

Apr 20, 2009, 07:22 PM

Apple Wouldnt Sell This Much If People Were Actually Getting Ripped Off.
Why not? People bought Pet Rocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Rock).

Do we have people regretting their purchase of a mac? Even if they paid an arm and a leg?
After they moved manufacturing to China, quality has gone down a bit. A lot of people who paid an arm and a leg for a MacBook Air are not happy with overheating problems and hinges snapping off like twigs from normal use, only to be told by Apple that it was their own fault and they have to pay for the repairs.

And I haven't seen not one complain yet.
Not one? Really? There are thousands on this site alone. Check out threads with topics like "Why does the optical in my Mac Pro sound louder than a helicopter taking off?", or the umpteen threads about hinge problems on MBA (a repeat of similar problems on the PowerBook Titanium), MBAs overheating due to lack or excess of thermal paste... Remember the iMac G5 model with a failure rate of 30%? Or the PowerMac G4 that was so notoriously noisy a special site was created for it (www.g4noise.com)? The Cubes that cracked? Battery recalls?

They make Chinese PCs like many other manufacturers, and that's OK, it's just unfortunate that the pricetags give the false impression that Macs were handmade by Swiss watchmakers.

Goona

Apr 20, 2009, 07:26 PM

iPoodOverZune

Apr 20, 2009, 07:27 PM

I disagree. This is exactly how Apple needs to address the Microsoft ads -- with the same tactic that been getting people to make the switch. If Apple were to respond to the accusation that Macs are "more expensive", it would work against Apple. Just as every time Microsoft mentions a Mac in their ads, it works for Apple. I think more of these ads are what is needed to keep going in the right direction.

Besides, I'm sure it just angers Ballmer even more knowing that Apple just isn't budging!

I can't agree more! You must play on your own turf to have an upper hand. Never direct response or in the same style as the opposition. If Apple were to respond to microsoft ads, then they will legitimize the contents of the MS ads by playing on the M$ turf. By continuing to play with the same ad style, Apple shoots two-birds with one stone: 1) by irritating MS to respond to their ads, they are bringing attention to their own products both ways - from MS as well as from Apple (remember "I am too cool for mac"); 2) they legitimize the contents of their own ads by forcing the other party to respond always; thus preventing themselves falling into MS trap. I say if apple still choose to respond directly to MS ad content, then give the response in the same humor style as the current ads.

Anuba

Apr 20, 2009, 07:40 PM

What about those shelling out 3000 dollars for PC's, are they also gullible?
Only if the PC has the same low specs as a Mac for $3000, but normally when you buy a $3000 PC you get $4000 worth of Mac hardware.

The Flashing Fi

Apr 20, 2009, 07:42 PM

Why not? People bought Pet Rocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Rock).

After they moved manufacturing to China, quality has gone down a bit. A lot of people who paid an arm and a leg for a MacBook Air are not happy with overheating problems and hinges snapping off like twigs from normal use, only to be told by Apple that it was their own fault and they have to pay for the repairs.

Not one? Really? There are thousands on this site alone. Check out threads with topics like "Why does the optical in my Mac Pro sound louder than a helicopter taking off?", or the umpteen threads about hinge problems on MBA (a repeat of similar problems on the PowerBook Titanium), MBAs overheating due to lack or excess of thermal paste... Remember the iMac G5 model with a failure rate of 30%? Or the PowerMac G4 that was so notoriously noisy a special site was created for it (www.g4noise.com)? The Cubes that cracked? Battery recalls?

They make Chinese PCs like many other manufacturers, and that's OK, it's just unfortunate that the pricetags give the false impression that Macs were handmade by Swiss watchmakers.

Don't forget about the faulty 8600M GTs in the MBPs and how Apple is handling the situation (replacing faulty 8600M GTs with faulty 8600M GTs until they are out of the "extended" warranty period, where the problem becomes the user's problem, but Apple is a genius in creating the illusion that they're doing something (even if in reality it really doesn't amount to anything) about the issue.

HLdan

Apr 20, 2009, 07:42 PM

I have to agree. There are many, many reasons why someone would want a Mac. I love mine. But that Faces commercial is the single dumbest excuse of a selling point I've ever seen. Just in case you're a big enough idiot to not be able to find your own pictures, buy a Mac because iPhoto has an unreliable feature that will find people by their facial features. Apple can and has done SO much better than that ad.

You're not grasping the whole point. You're only looking at this from a geek POV. What Apple's ads are doing (unlike Microsoft) are attacking the "problem".

Scenario: "I can't find all the pictures on the computer that were taken of our parents from our wedding reception because there's so many pics"
"We took over 100 pictures at the amusement park, I can't find any that we were in because there were so many people at the park".
The faces feature in iPhoto is great feature to advertise. It may be a small feature to some of you here but for the average consumer it's the end all answer to at least one of their problems on their PC.
If people are having multiple issues with their PC's that Apple talks about in their ads they may just decide to make the switch because of the faces feature. Again, it's a solution to someone's problem which is the point of the whole ad.

Please spare me that Windows can do this blah blah blah, we're talking about what a Mac can do out of the box with no additional 3rd party software to download or purchase.

Anuba

Apr 20, 2009, 08:07 PM

You're not grasping the whole point. You're only looking at this from a geek POV. What Apple's ads are doing (unlike Microsoft) are attacking the "problem".
What he was trying to say, I believe, is that the "problem" is kind of artificial. Geek or not, who has so many pictures and such a poor grasp of the pictures they've taken or the people that are in them that they have to employ some frickin' CSI-algorithm to do the job for them? Sure, it's a huge time saver... if you're a senile and half-blind professional photographer who sorts 10,000 pictures every day.

iLife is becoming like MS Office, it's reached a point where all the essential features are already there and now MS has to rack their brains every 3 years to come up with artificial problems so they can add features to address them.

weaksauce

Apr 20, 2009, 08:59 PM

They all prefer the considerably cheaper Ford Mondeo to the overpriced 3 series BMW.

I agree with them.

Analogy fail, once again.

Muwhahahahaa

Car Analogy
Apple fanatics are like BMW drivers
/Car Analgoy

Exit stage left with my MB, whilst using my XP64 Workstaiton.

You are missing the point. Cars/computers that cost more can justify it with quality, brand recognition, features, the experience etc...

I mean, look at your own personal choices. You own a Macbook and a PC of sorts...? Well, what made you buy either one? Did you want or need any those? For me, I wanted a Mac because of Apple's track record for reliability and ease of use, not to mention a better OS and software for my line of work. Same goes for cars, there are those for the commuter, for the enthused, for the green conscious or the VIP. Like I said, only a real petrol-head would get the car analogy.

Mac = bottled water

Windows = bottled water backwash

Linux = tap water

I like this one, though you could argue that Macs are more like bottled smart water. You know since that water comes with added nutrients/minerals at a higher price the way Macs come with a better OS and software at a higher price.:D

hugo7

Apr 20, 2009, 09:12 PM

I don't understand why they don't just do the exact same thing they do with the iphone ad's but on a Mac.

It would give people a chance to see how a Mac works and the real differences involved.

Show something, quick, snappy, informative and more importantly... Mac. Not just two people stood talking?

The iphone ads have sold a hell of a lot of iphones because it shows just how easy it is to use and the benefits you get from it. Mac's are exactly the same when you compare them to a PC... show it.

Features such as low resolution, bigger visual controls / icons, and single app-centric nature so readily make the iphone ideal for demoing on a TV screen.

Displaying the standard iLife apps on a TV screen will convey nothing (much like the photo manipulation stuff in the PC ads). Think about it, when was the last time you were truly impressed by a desktop app appearing in a 30 second TV ad.

pr5owner

Apr 20, 2009, 11:17 PM

Mac = bottled water

Windows = bottled water backwash

Linux = tap water

http://www.organicconsumers.org/foodsafety/water121003.cfm

congrats, you bought into the hype!

The message is clear: Bottled water is "good" water, as opposed to that
nasty, unsafe stuff that comes out of the tap. But in most cases tap water
adheres to stricter purity standards than bottled water

now go back to your over priced PC with the nice white glossy finish. and ill go back to my overclocked PC thats half the price and has piano black finish.

I agree. And what's worse is that Microsoft actually paid some advertising company to produce these Ad's... Yeah, it's exactly like saying 'We make a flawed product that runs on cheap plasticky computers - buy a PC!' :rolleyes:

yeah cheap chinese plasticy computers... Macs... (cheap for apple to manufacture and produce, but not for the consumer)

BTW PC's come in all shapes sizes and materials, you can get full aluminum chassis or even lexan cases, what about macs? cheap plastic.
my laptop comes in a light weigh carbon composite material (not woven carbon fiber but another type of carbon fiber)

This thread is hilarious. I think most of us agree that the car analogies are too ridiculous to continue being used, so there's got to be a more apt comparison between PCs and Macs that makes a lot more sense.

ive already proven in 2 diffrent threads that car analogies are totally off when it comes to computers becuase a Core2duo 2.66GHz is the exact same as another core2duo at 2.66GHz (they will both have the exact same MIPs and MFLOPS as another 2.66GHz)

however they do overclock diffrently but that doesnt count.

a Jag will not have the same V6 as a ford even if the BLOCK is the same, the timing components, valves, pistons, etc are all diffrent with a diffrent output in HP and torque.

Yeah but they all do the same bloody thing, get you from point A to B. You also pay for the Mercedes brand premium. Why do you think Mercedes charges more for their cars than Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, etc. Apple has a higher brand than all those PC companies, studies also show Apple has the highest satisfaction rates in the industry while the rates for the PC companies are dropping through the toilet because they can't match the experience Apple provides. Apple also differentiates themselves through their superior OS and software solutions. What software solutions does HP and Dell develop? When you add in all that I'm willing to pay a premium to buy from Apple because at the end of the day I care about how satisfied I'll be about my purchase and not how cheap the computer is.

im sorry a Hyundai Genesis Sedan 4.6L V8 will roast a C300 mercedes for CHEAPER, will have MORE options, LONGER warranty, MORE power (375HP Vs 228HP), more space inside (a genesis is in the same weight and size category as an E class) with the leather feeling exacaly the same.

apple would be closer to VW, looks nice, crappy horse power, over priced, maintainence is twice as much (oilchanges are like $120 CAD vs $30) cant handle worth crap, only a brand name to protect their "MEXICAN" made cars (apple = chinese made computers by Hon Hai)

i would take an Infinity over a VW any day.

Exactly...

So, Mac's are actually PC's.

It's not a Kia vs Merc issue.

PC's and Mac's are the same components, just with a different body kit.

That's the truth.

They just run a different OS.

the OS in regards to cars would only be location of your HVAC controls, headlight switch, radio look and feel.

both Windows, OSX and linux will allow you to

Check your email (drive to work)
chat on IM (talk to people on the phone via bluetooth)
watch youtube (watch movies on the nav screen)
turn on and off the computer (push button engine start/stop)
delete porn (haul dead bodies in the trunk)

the OS's do the same function but just diffrently

weaksauce

Apr 20, 2009, 11:42 PM

And the Troll of the year award goes too...

pr5owner

Apr 20, 2009, 11:45 PM

Biohazard Ad = ********, Macs run windows, they get infected too, also AVs are free, even the best one is free (Antivir), PC's dont all run windows anyways, some run OSX, some run ubuntu, some run SuSE. Apple please cut the BS.

Legal copy = WTF? and apples EULA isnt a load of crap too? with Apple's EULA it tells you that you cant do this and that, and can only install it on their own, apple's legal crap is alot worse than MS

Stacks = again WTF, MS had facial recognition in live seach since 2007

http://www.online-tech-tips.com/industry-news/windows-live-search-images-now-includes-facial-recognition-filters/

windows also allows login with facial recognition

http://on10.net/blogs/sarahintampa/Log-Into-Windows-Using-Facial-Recognition-Software/

also picsmatch does the same thing, and the HUNDREDS of dollars i save when buying a Pc i could buy a $50 program however im not as retarded as some users and my photos are organized so i can find any photo easily as it is.

time traveler, WTF? so macs dont freeze? do i REALLY need to post that picture i have with a mac having a kernel panic? seriously? at my last job my PC didnt freeze even NEAR the number of times the POS macmini froze, that macmini froze with the CPU at 100% and the fan going 100%. hows that for freezing?

i guess this thread is a myth then too right? (apples own discussion forum about freezing macs)

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1967178&tstart=0

go to hell apple, you and your false advertising.

And the Troll of the year award goes too...

do you know what a troll is? almost everyone in this thread is providng references to back up their claims.

tubbymac

Apr 20, 2009, 11:58 PM

These commercials really got you riled up, wow :D

koa

Apr 21, 2009, 12:07 AM

do you know what a troll is? almost everyone in this thread is providng references to back up their claims.

You forgot the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

iMaggot

Apr 21, 2009, 12:28 AM

Let the ad war begin :D

DougB541

Apr 21, 2009, 12:43 AM

Exactly. And They Should Show Some Points To Tell People That You Pay For You Get. Apple Wouldnt Sell This Much If People Were Actually Getting Ripped Off.

Look at the Xbox 360? People complained about it, because the reliability was low, now we have lots of people looking elsewhere because of this. Do we have people regretting their purchase of a mac? Even if they paid an arm and a leg?

Trust me theres people out there that dont have that much money (like me) and when they buy their macs, they are going to make sure its "perfect" and that they got "what they paid for". They want it to be worth the extra money compared to PCs. And I haven't seen not one complain yet.

Apple needs to show that. :apple:

Sigh, no offense as it sounds like you enjoy your product and more power to you. But pelase don't confuse what people "say" with reality.

Apple is not infallable and have had many issues that for one reason or another rarely makes it past tech forums/news sites.

For instance, the Sony batteries....i'm pretty sure 95% of people only associated the issue with Dell computers (some were smart enough to figure Vaio's were effected as well)....hardly anyone I knew knew that Macs were effected.

Still can't figure out why that is.

Or hey, even the cracking of Macbooks issue that apple just admitted to:
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/722/1051722/apple-admits-cracked-macbooks

This will largely go ignored when talking about Apple's reliability for reasons, still beyond me.

The Flashing Fi

Apr 21, 2009, 12:58 AM

Sigh, no offense as it sounds like you enjoy your product and more power to you. But pelase don't confuse what people "say" with reality.

Apple is not infallable and have had many issues that for one reason or another rarely makes it past tech forums/news sites.

For instance, the Sony batteries....i'm pretty sure 95% of people only associated the issue with Dell computers (some were smart enough to figure Vaio's were effected as well)....hardly anyone I knew knew that Macs were effected.

Still can't figure out why that is.

Or hey, even the cracking of Macbooks issue that apple just admitted to:
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/722/1051722/apple-admits-cracked-macbooks

This will largely go ignored when talking about Apple's reliability for reasons, still beyond me.

I've noticed this too. Mac users seem to sweep problems under the rug and then rip on PCs for their "problems." It's fanboyism at its finest.

pr5owner

Apr 21, 2009, 01:02 AM

WHOA!! EVERYONE STOP!!

CNBC has the final word, APPLE HAS WON!!

http://i.gizmodo.com/5220277/cnbc-is-ridiculous-macs-come-with-photoshop-pcs-need-600-extra-to-perform-as-well-as-a-mac

why?

you have to PAY for free antiviruses!!! (like antivir)

Itunes costs money for windows!! $104!! VLC, kmplayer and klite mega codec + WMP also cost $104!!! each and total!

photoshop costs $140 ?? and its free on a mac,

video editing is free for $100 because TMPENc you have to pay for

music software $100 for PC and nothing for the mac (audacity is free but i paid $100 for it)

geek squad costs $129 but $250 applecare is free

oh and a 2.0GHz T7200 core2duo Mac is faster than my 2.2GHz T7500 core2duo becuase Mac CPU's are AUTOMATICALLY faster.

Apple is not infallable and have had many issues that for one reason or another rarely makes it past tech forums/news sites.

This will largely go ignored when talking about Apple's reliability for reasons, still beyond me.

wrong this article states CLEARLY that mac has ZERO issues

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/04/evidence-suggests-first-zombie-mac-botnet-is-active.ars

dkouts

Apr 21, 2009, 01:22 AM

macFanDave

Apr 21, 2009, 02:39 AM

Michael Dukakis learned in 1988 that not replying to the Willie Horton ad quickly and forcefully killed him. Bill Clinton heeded that lesson and formed a rapid response team to hit back at George HW Bush. He went on to serve two terms (the maximum allowed by the Constitution). Al Gore and Kerry seemed to have forgotten this wisdom, so Bush's Demon Seed got two terms in office. Barack Obama had that fighting spirit and now he's President.

Apple realized that if you don't smack those losers like Lauren and Giampaolo down, their idiotic statements ring true to some people. These ads are just that kind of counterpunch.

I wouldn't be surprised if these commercials weren't written a long time ago and kept in silos just like nuclear missiles. Microsoft triggered this response with its attack ads. Apple is finally putting into commercials they way a lot of us Mac fans have been saying for a long time.

Rob0711

Apr 21, 2009, 02:51 AM

WHOA!! EVERYONE STOP!!

CNBC has the final word, APPLE HAS WON!!

http://i.gizmodo.com/5220277/cnbc-is-ridiculous-macs-come-with-photoshop-pcs-need-600-extra-to-perform-as-well-as-a-mac

why?

you have to PAY for free antiviruses!!! (like antivir)

Itunes costs money for windows!! $104!! VLC, kmplayer and klite mega codec + WMP also cost $104!!! each and total!

photoshop costs $140 ?? and its free on a mac,

video editing is free for $100 because TMPENc you have to pay for

music software $100 for PC and nothing for the mac (audacity is free but i paid $100 for it)

geek squad costs $129 but $250 applecare is free

oh and a 2.0GHz T7200 core2duo Mac is faster than my 2.2GHz T7500 core2duo becuase Mac CPU's are AUTOMATICALLY faster.

breathe mate :) and take it easy. maybe you should just give it a try, you do seem fascinated by the mac topic :)

MacAndy74

Apr 21, 2009, 03:01 AM

breathe mate :) and take it easy. maybe you should just give it a try, you do seem fascinated by the mac topic :)

:D I think it's really quite sad seeing Windows users posting here and trying to argue how a Windows PC is better value or whatever the latest arguement is.

I mean, :rolleyes: really. Growing a tumor just to convince people who honestly don't care, that some guy on a forum says he loves Windows and a PC. He should just go outside and play ball.. or join Neowin.net - either is good. ;)

MacManiac76

Apr 21, 2009, 04:32 AM

kdarling

Apr 21, 2009, 06:03 AM

Don't know if this has been posted yet...

MacJournal's article about the fine print in the Legal Copy ad (http://www.macjournals.com/news/legalcopytext), pointing out that it was more than a bit ridiculous.

*LTD*

Apr 21, 2009, 06:03 AM

So basically 1 out of 4 commercials manage to advertise macs. At least one of them do it this time.

Doesn't matter how or what they advertise. It's not about facts and information, it's about imagery.

Goona

Apr 21, 2009, 06:17 AM

Biohazard Ad = ********, Macs run windows, they get infected too, also AVs are free, even the best one is free (Antivir), PC's dont all run windows anyways, some run OSX, some run ubuntu, some run SuSE. Apple please cut the BS.

Legal copy = WTF? and apples EULA isnt a load of crap too? with Apple's EULA it tells you that you cant do this and that, and can only install it on their own, apple's legal crap is alot worse than MS

Stacks = again WTF, MS had facial recognition in live seach since 2007

http://www.online-tech-tips.com/industry-news/windows-live-search-images-now-includes-facial-recognition-filters/

windows also allows login with facial recognition

http://on10.net/blogs/sarahintampa/Log-Into-Windows-Using-Facial-Recognition-Software/

also picsmatch does the same thing, and the HUNDREDS of dollars i save when buying a Pc i could buy a $50 program however im not as retarded as some users and my photos are organized so i can find any photo easily as it is.

time traveler, WTF? so macs dont freeze? do i REALLY need to post that picture i have with a mac having a kernel panic? seriously? at my last job my PC didnt freeze even NEAR the number of times the POS macmini froze, that macmini froze with the CPU at 100% and the fan going 100%. hows that for freezing?

i guess this thread is a myth then too right? (apples own discussion forum about freezing macs)

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1967178&tstart=0

go to hell apple, you and your false advertising.

Damn Apple has gotten to the Microsoft fanboys, it seems to be working..:D

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 06:33 AM

Damn Apple has gotten to the Microsoft fanboys, it seems to be working..:D

Yeah it makes me laugh how it makes them so angry! They spend hours on here trying to convince us that our choice is wrong and theirs is right.

We are going to continue using and enjoying our expensive computers no matter what they say, so you have to wonder why they bother. Why is it so important to them?

6,000+ posts, and the conclusion is... some people think Macs are overpriced, and some people think they're worth it. Exactly the same as before.

Find another cause to fight, PC people, and your lives will be less frustrating.

:apple:

AidenShaw

Apr 21, 2009, 06:54 AM

Find another cause to fight, PC people, and your lives will be less frustrating.

Yes, these newest ads are no more or less truthful than any of the others in the long, boring PC and MAC series.

It's funny, though, to see Microsoft having the class to pitch positive ads, while Apple continues to do petty, negative advertising which is seems obviously overstated or false to much of the audience.

*LTD*

Apr 21, 2009, 06:59 AM

Yeah it makes me laugh how it makes them so angry! They spend hours on here trying to convince us that our choice is wrong and theirs is right.

Well we do the same thing. Who's right? Who's wrong? Well, that's up to everyone else to decide. All I know is this:

We don't run or need to run any antivirus software
We don't need to do any maintenance to the OS to keep it from grinding to a halt
We have a much more stable system
No compatibility issues
Best in class software
Better looking software in terms of design/UI integration
Unix
Better-designed OS - certainly much cleaner code
Better looking OS
etc., etc . . . the list goes on and on

I wouldn't trade in my Mac for anything. I even hang on to my old Macs from years ago. They have quite a resale value, anyway. It's really all about the way you feel about the tools you use on a daily basis. I actiually LIKE doing work on my Mac. It's that simple.

Rob0711

Apr 21, 2009, 07:01 AM

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 07:03 AM

It's funny, though, to see Microsoft having the class to pitch positive ads.

Yes. Some bad actors telling us that Macs are expensive. Classy and positive. You got me there.

Goona

Apr 21, 2009, 07:06 AM

Yes. Some bad actors telling us that Macs are expensive. Classy and positive. You got me there.

Yeah if that's what we call positive advertising, then the world is truly down the toilet.

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 07:07 AM

I wouldn't trade in my Mac for anything. I even hang on to my old Macs from years ago. They have quite a resale value, anyway. It's really all about the way you feel about the tools you use on a daily basis. I actiually LIKE doing work on my Mac. It's that simple.

I couldn't have put it better. Me too... now I wonder why some people can't accept that and move on?

*LTD*

Apr 21, 2009, 07:08 AM

Yes, these newest ads or no more or less truthful than any of the others in the long, boring Pc and MAC series.

It's funny, though, to see Microsoft having the class to pitch positive ads, while Apple continues to do petty, negative advertising which is seems obviously overstated or false to much of the audience.

"Much of the audience" . . . or you mean the tech-nerd and computer enthusiasts on Macrumors . . . and Neowin, and AI, and MacNN, etc.

We're not "much of the audience." Not even close. We're a niche that still thinks PC gaming is alive and well for example, and will continue unabated. Yes, that's how out of touch we are with what's happening in the rest of the market. Meanwhile the future is in consoles, while the REAL future is in devices like the iPhone. But I digress . . .

I don't see any class in the MS ads. I see lowbrow-Americana going on a Wal-Mart trip. More ugly "average" people doing average things. It's meat and potatoes. Talk about derivative. And cheap. MS tried to appeal to common folk by palying the "we're cheap" angle and just ends up looking . . . well, cheap and common. Advertising success, across any media, is all about IMAGERY, almost never about the actual information. And the image the MS ads project is lousy.

Doesn't matter how much the mac ads lie or tell the truth. It makes no difference. All the ads need to do is get your attention with style and spark your interest. They're clever, they look professional, and the characters are endearing. People remember them - something immediately recognizable. The Mac and PC guy are household names now. They're tech archetypes. The techie Odd Couple. They've become a classic. It's all about effective branding, and Apple has it down to a science. A commercial will only have someone's attention for a short amount of time, if they even bother to listen. Make it short, funny, lighthearted, and slick. It has to have the "cool" factor, not the "roadkill" factor.

MS can't brand to save their lives, anyway, much less design anything worth wanting unless you're compelled to use what they peddle.

The stark reality is that the licensing cash cow has virtually killed any "innovation" (read: ability to create compelling products) at MS. Ditto for the PC box assemblers. Just look at the Zune HD. A phoneless touchscreen mediaplayer (currently vapourware) that's 2 years too late. And it's not even released yet. Same for Windows Mobile. Look at the garbage MS calls a mobile OS. Again, late and underwhelming. Let's not even talk about how user-ufriendly it is. If it's more complicated than turning it on and using it and downloading an app with one touch, it might as well be a toaster.

Jiten

Apr 21, 2009, 07:12 AM

It's funny, though, to see Microsoft having the class to pitch positive ads, while Apple continues to do petty, negative advertising which is seems obviously overstated or false to much of the audience.

You obviously have not seen the "Laptop Hunters" series.

But I do agree thought that the "I'm a PC" and those cute, " Hey look! 5 year old kid using the PC!" ads were pretty neat.

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 07:17 AM

Doesn't matter how much the mac ads lie or tell the truth. They're clever, they look professional, and the characters are enedearing. People remember them - something immediately recongizable.

You got it in one... lowbrow Walmart vs. clever and professional. That's all the average consumer is going to get out of this.

Reinforcing the image that PC=bargain basement and Mac=cool and exclusive.

Eeeexcellent! :)

Anuba

Apr 21, 2009, 08:09 AM

Michael Dukakis learned in 1988 that not replying to the Willie Horton ad quickly and forcefully killed him. Bill Clinton heeded that lesson and formed a rapid response team to hit back at George HW Bush. He went on to serve two terms (the maximum allowed by the Constitution). Al Gore and Kerry seemed to have forgotten this wisdom, so Bush's Demon Seed got two terms in office. Barack Obama had that fighting spirit and now he's President.
Umm... correction: Obama rose above McCain's attack ads, concentrated on highlighting his strengths instead of the opponent's faults, while McCain's ridiculous scare propaganda backfired and became his own undoing. Which is exactly what I think when I watch "Hi, I'm a Mac" ads that try to make it look like a PC becomes crammed with viruses the minute you plug it in: This is exactly like McCain yapping about Bill Ayers until your ears bleed.

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 08:21 AM

Which is exactly what I think when I watch "Hi, I'm a Mac" ads that try to make it look like a PC becomes crammed with viruses the minute you plug it in

But that is the experience of many consumers watching these ads. Malware has ruined many a non tech-nerd's day.

*LTD*

Apr 21, 2009, 08:24 AM

Umm... correction: Obama rose above McCain's attack ads, concentrated on highlighting his strengths instead of the opponent's faults, while McCain's ridiculous scare propaganda backfired and became his own undoing. Which is exactly what I think when I watch "Hi, I'm a Mac" ads that try to make it look like a PC becomes crammed with viruses the minute you plug it in: This is exactly like McCain yapping about Bill Ayers until your ears bleed.

I really don't think any comparison can be made between attack ads during a national election and product ads that run every day. In fact, the Mac ads attack very softly, they merely poke some gentle fun at PCs to get the point across. Public perception of political ads are far different, and loaded with prejudice and expectation even before any ads air.

rotta

Apr 21, 2009, 08:28 AM

Doesn't matter how or what they advertise. It's not about facts and information, it's about imagery.

Yeah, like Apple tax...

*LTD*

Apr 21, 2009, 08:29 AM

But that is the experience of many consumers watching these ads. Malware has ruined many a non tech-nerd's day.

Well exactly. The Mac ads are merely reinforcing public perception of Windows, which has been the same for well over a decade:

Windows is virus-ridden
Windows is unreliable
Windows crashes
Windows causes grief and frustration
It's a pain in the ass at work, and at home, too

Much of that is still as true today as it was years ago (Vista.) But its truth doesn't matter, it's what everyone has grown to believe based on MS' horrible reputation. Bad reputations are quite tough to live down, and can taint your long-term prospects. It's like luggage, you don't really ever get rid of it.

Yeah, like Apple tax...

No one outside of the forums is really familiar with the term "Apple tax" or its implications. It's a barb used in internet forums. People are simply aware that Macs cost more, but most are unaware of the actual breakdown.

The idea that you can possibly get "more" for your money with a PC is out there. But I really doubt it will do much more than what's already happening. If you're absolutely in love with that idea on the other hand, then it would be sueful to wait a few months for the fallout to show, if there will be any to begin with.

Anuba

Apr 21, 2009, 08:39 AM

But that is the experience of many consumers watching these ads. Malware has ruined many a non tech-nerd's day.
Yes... in 1998. Trust me, I love it when they poke fun at stuff like Vista's UAC because it *is* annoying. But the virus FUD is just a desperate attempt to cling to the past, just like when Letterman and Leno went on and on with Bill Clinton fat jokes years after Clinton lost so much weight that he could successfully hide behind a flagpole. It was easy and gratifying, so the truth didn't really matter.

rwilliams

Apr 21, 2009, 08:57 AM

Yes... in 1998. Trust me, I love it when they poke fun at stuff like Vista's UAC because it *is* annoying. But the virus FUD is just a desperate attempt to cling to the past, just like when Letterman and Leno went on and on with Bill Clinton fat jokes years after Clinton lost so much weight that he could successfully hide behind a flagpole. It was easy and gratifying, so the truth didn't really matter.

I agree. I must live in some sort of utopia, because I've owned several Windows machines since the late 90s, and have been a programmer and network administrator for almost 10 years now, and I have yet to encounter the perpetually infected, spyware-ridden, constantly blue screening PCs that everyone swears exist in mass numbers. Even when fixing problems on the machines of family and friends over the years, the issues had nothing to do with spyware/adware/viruses. It was usually user error.

I didn't switch to a Mac recently because I was so sick of Windows and screaming in horror - I did it because I wanted to learn something different and get a quality machine at the same time. I was running Windows 7 for months with no antivirus or spyware, and when I finally did install AVG and ran a scan, there was not a single infection. Windows isn't bulletproof, but it's come a long way and Windows 7 is an outstanding piece of work. But since when has the truth been valued in advertising? Both Microsoft and Apple twist facts and tell outright lies to suit their purposes.

Anuba

Apr 21, 2009, 09:00 AM

Yeah, like Apple tax...
How is "Apple tax" a construct?

In 2005, Dell had a gross margin of 18%. Apple had 29%. Even after taking into account things like R&D, the extra cost for developing OS X etc, Apple's profit percentage was still 9.6% (Dell = 6.4%). So the Apple tax still exists even after you've taken all of Apple's extra costs into account.´

As to how Apple manages to blow nearly 20% of their gross margin while Dell gets by on 11.6, well... you pay some more for R&D (Dell actually spends $500 million on R&D, but Apple spends more), you pay for OS X development, but you also pay craploads for advertising and keeping all the Apple Stores running... which is kind of a bummer if you live in a country where no Apple Stores exist.

Windows isn't bulletproof, but it's come a long way and Windows 7 is an outstanding piece of work. But since when has the truth been valued in advertising? Both Microsoft and Apple twist facts and tell outright lies to suit their purposes.
Sure they do, but the virus thing is kind of a serious accusation. It's like BMW saying, "Warning: If you buy an Audi you will keep driving into oncoming traffic". Keep it real, keep it fun, but don't insist that the competition's product is flat out dangerous unless it's 100% true.

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 09:08 AM

Yes... in 1998. Trust me, I love it when they poke fun at stuff like Vista's UAC because it *is* annoying. But the virus FUD is just a desperate attempt to cling to the past

I've had to fix many PCs belonging to non technical friends and family in the past 10 years as a direct consequence of malware. I'm sure I'm not the only one. In fact, the situation was better in 1998 than it is now. I'd never heard the terms "spyware" or "adware" back then. I agree that the virus FUD is hyped up and exaggerated by the marketing men (especially those in the IT security industry), but it is nevertheless real.

Both Microsoft and Apple twist facts and tell outright lies to suit their purposes.

Welcome to capitalism! It ain't pretty.

Dell actually spends $500 million on R&D, but Apple spends more

And it shows.

war eagle

Apr 21, 2009, 09:19 AM

I love Time Traveler.

pr5owner

Apr 21, 2009, 09:21 AM

the best / most accurate line of the whole series of Mac ads is in the one titled "Off the Air"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFSUeBlqzPM

at 17secs he says:

"...fear of switching is the basis of customer loyalty for PCs..."

well actaully i dont want to switch because i dont want a performance hit, i would go from 3.14GHz to 2.66GHz and pay $800 to do it.

Goona

Apr 21, 2009, 09:24 AM

Dell actually spends 500 million on research, WTF do they have to show for it? :rolleyes:

pr5owner

Apr 21, 2009, 09:24 AM

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 09:27 AM

Dell actually spends 500 million on research, WTF do they have to show for it? :rolleyes:

The build quality isn't too bad. They tend to ship with a crap OS though! :D

well actaully i dont want to switch because i dont want a performance hit, i would go from 3.14GHz to 2.66GHz and pay $800 to do it.

Why are you here then?

pr5owner

Apr 21, 2009, 09:34 AM

Well exactly. The Mac ads are merely reinforcing public perception of Windows, which has been the same for well over a decade:

Windows is virus-ridden
Windows is unreliable
Windows crashes
Windows causes grief and frustration
It's a pain in the ass at work, and at home, too

Much of that is still as true today as it was years ago (Vista.) But its truth doesn't matter, it's what everyone has grown to believe based on MS' horrible reputation. Bad reputations are quite tough to live down, and can taint your long-term prospects. It's like luggage, you don't really ever get rid of it.

Windows is virus-ridden

http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2007/10/mac_os_x_malware_targets_porn_surfers.html

http://www.macworld.co.uk/business/news/index.cfm?newsid=25756

http://blog.trendmicro.com/new-malware-threatens-mac-users/

Windows is unreliable
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/535/1051535/apple-reliable-cheap-chinese-computers

Windows crashes
http://techblips.dailyradar.com/story/macbook_pro_screen_glitches_heat_not_nvidia_issue/

Windows causes grief and frustration

i like this one the best (mac pros releasing dangerous chemicals)>> http://www.inquisitr.com/4326/the-bad-news-my-4000-mac-pro-may-be-killing-me-the-good-news-if-true-apple-will-put-the-next-10-generations-of-my-family-through-private-school/

It's a pain in the ass at work, and at home, too
http://vowe.net/archives/008181.html

you just described OSX from the look of it

my Vista 64 gaming machine has never had any of the issues you mentioned above, it wakes up from suspend every time, and has never failed to play any games or open apps. you simply are just stuck in 1998 when windows and computer HW WAS unreliable

polaris20

Apr 21, 2009, 09:37 AM

Why are you here then?

Well, let's see: he doesn't want to switch, and he spends 100% of his time here bagging on Macs, OS X, and Apple in general.

Yup, you guessed it. He's a troll.

*LTD*

Apr 21, 2009, 09:43 AM

http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2007/10/mac_os_x_malware_targets_porn_surfers.html

http://www.macworld.co.uk/business/news/index.cfm?newsid=25756

http://blog.trendmicro.com/new-malware-threatens-mac-users/

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/535/1051535/apple-reliable-cheap-chinese-computers

http://techblips.dailyradar.com/story/macbook_pro_screen_glitches_heat_not_nvidia_issue/

i like this one the best (mac pros releasing dangerous chemicals)>> http://www.inquisitr.com/4326/the-bad-news-my-4000-mac-pro-may-be-killing-me-the-good-news-if-true-apple-will-put-the-next-10-generations-of-my-family-through-private-school/

http://vowe.net/archives/008181.html

you just described OSX from the look of it

my Vista 64 gaming machine has never had any of the issues you mentioned above, it wakes up from suspend every time, and has never failed to play any games or open apps. you simply are just stuck in 1998 when windows and computer HW WAS unreliable

Once in a while it rains in the desert, too.

MikeTheC

Apr 21, 2009, 09:44 AM

I love the new ads. They are so much more stylish and classy than Microsoft's "I'm a PC" campaign... or pretty much any ad campaign they've ever run.

pr5owner

Apr 21, 2009, 09:46 AM

What I wanna know is, if Microsoft made their own brand of PC, what would they charge for it? If their software pricing is any basis, the price of a theoretical Microsoft PC would probably cost more than a comparative Apple system.

well thats Easy!

Microsoft's most expensive gaming mouse (comes with interchangable weights, etc) >> $79

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826105255

** there is 92 other mice inbetween **
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010290065%2050001149&bop=And&Order=RATING

Microsoft's Cheapest mouse >> $8.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826105061

Apple's most expensive mouse >> $69

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB111LL/A?fnode=MTY1NDA1Mg&mco=NzQxNTc

Apple's Cheapest mouse >> $49

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB112LL/A?fnode=MTY1NDA1Mg&mco=MjE0NjYwOA

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 09:48 AM

Well, let's see: he doesn't want to switch, and he spends 100% of his time here bagging on Macs, OS X, and Apple in general.

Yup, you guessed it. He's a troll.

We do seem to have quite a prolific little band of them on here don't we. They've come on a bit since the "you're a fag using a fag computer, all Mac users are retards, etc" days, but I still haven't seen any present a coherent argument as to why I shouldn't use my Mac.

pr5owner

Apr 21, 2009, 09:49 AM

Well, let's see: he doesn't want to switch, and he spends 100% of his time here bagging on Macs, OS X, and Apple in general.

Yup, you guessed it. He's a troll.

and your on here pretending like apple is the second comming of christ, your a fanboy!

rwilliams

Apr 21, 2009, 09:51 AM

We do seem to have quite a prolific little band of them on here don't we. They've come on a bit since the "you're a fag using a fag computer, all Mac users are retards, etc" days, but I still haven't seen any present a coherent argument as to why I shouldn't use my Mac.

Those arguments don't actually exist, on either side of the argument. For someone who's happy with their platform of choice, and has gotten good-to-great results from their choice, no argument is going to persuade them that they're wrong. That's why the sensible people here point out that OS X, Windows, and Linux all have their strengths and weaknesses, and that people should just use what works best for them.

polaris20

Apr 21, 2009, 09:51 AM

and your on here pretending like apple is the second comming of christ, your a fanboy!

Yeah, that's why this is in my signature:

2.4Ghz MBP Unibody | Dell 700m Ubuntu 8.10 x32
400Mhz G4 PB, Tiger | Thinkpad T61p Win7 x64
Citrix XenServer 5.0, running several OSes

Nice try though. Any time anyone calls out an MS troll/apologist, we're immediately an Apple fanboy. Sure. ;)

zombitronic

Apr 21, 2009, 09:53 AM

now go back to your over priced PC with the nice white glossy finish. and ill go back to my overclocked PC thats half the price and has piano black finish.

Lighten up, guy. I run several OSes on several computers in my house (not just Mac and Windows). I just like the Mac OS the best. The bottled water analogy was a joke. Besides, I drink tap water through a filtered pitcher. That's probably equal to Solaris.

For a lot of people, money is the driving factor behind every decision they make in life. They'll almost always sacrifice pleasure for numbers. If you're really happy with your PC, I'm happy for you. I like my PC too. I just feel that the extra pleasure I get from OS X is worth dishing out the extra numbers for a Mac.

Now deflate your epeen and go back to your accumulated numbers.

StrayRooster

Apr 21, 2009, 09:54 AM

http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2007/10/mac_os_x_malware_targets_porn_surfers.html

http://www.macworld.co.uk/business/news/index.cfm?newsid=25756

http://blog.trendmicro.com/new-malware-threatens-mac-users/

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/535/1051535/apple-reliable-cheap-chinese-computers

http://techblips.dailyradar.com/story/macbook_pro_screen_glitches_heat_not_nvidia_issue/

i like this one the best (mac pros releasing dangerous chemicals)>> http://www.inquisitr.com/4326/the-bad-news-my-4000-mac-pro-may-be-killing-me-the-good-news-if-true-apple-will-put-the-next-10-generations-of-my-family-through-private-school/

http://vowe.net/archives/008181.html

you just described OSX from the look of it

and you just described all isolated incidents. Each one of those "problems" you described for mac happen DAILY with PCs with day-to-day use from an average user.

As for the "poisonous chemicals" article, everyone knows the ZDNet is Microsoft biased, and that it originated from a French newspaper, with a loose translation. And its the same as saying "Fish contain mercury, and mercury kills you, so fish are evil!! They will ALL kill you!!!"

Way to cherry pick articles.

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 09:57 AM

and your on here pretending like apple is the second comming of christ, your a fanboy!

I take it all back. They haven't come on at all.

polaris20

Apr 21, 2009, 09:58 AM

Those arguments don't actually exist, on either side of the argument. For someone who's happy with their platform of choice, and has gotten good-to-great results from their choice, no argument is going to persuade them that they're wrong. That's why the sensible people here point out that OS X, Windows, and Linux all have their strengths and weaknesses, and that people should just use what works best for them.

Exactly. But the problem is that's not what we get from people like PR5Owner. It's the same tired "Apple is overpriced, Macs don't play games/Blu-Ray, I can build a system cheaper, there aren't enough choices with Apple, etc" argument, which is irrelevant, because all the information is plainly obvious to anyone who's purchased a computer in the last 12 years. We know. We get it. You don't like Macs. That's fine. Don't buy one then, and be happy.

It's the friggin' same crap every thread.

StrayRooster

Apr 21, 2009, 10:00 AM

Pika

Apr 21, 2009, 10:06 AM

Microsoft fanboys will get mad after wathing this... :D

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 10:06 AM

Those arguments don't actually exist, on either side of the argument. For someone who's happy with their platform of choice, and has gotten good-to-great results from their choice, no argument is going to persuade them that they're wrong.

Well yeah, you and I know that, but they obviously don't get it. You have to admire their dedication to the cause.

macFanDave

Apr 21, 2009, 10:08 AM

I really don't think any comparison can be made between attack ads during a national election and product ads that run every day. In fact, the Mac ads attack very softly, they merely poke some gentle fun at PCs to get the point across. Public perception of political ads are far different, and loaded with prejudice and expectation even before any ads air.

Yes, they can. The main point being that once one side attacks, the other had better respond quickly and with proportionate force.

I don't see the "Biohazard" ad as gentle fun; it looks like a hard kick to the nutsack!

polaris20

Apr 21, 2009, 10:10 AM

Well yeah, you and I know that, but they obviously don't get it. You have to admire their dedication to the cause.

Well the logic here is:

You like Windows, and do not like Macs: Normal
You like Mac, but do not like Windows: unapologetic Apple fanboy
You like Mac, and also like Windows, Linux, etc: unapologetic Apple fanboy

Hmmm......something's not right here, but I can't put my finger on it. :confused::D

pr5owner

Apr 21, 2009, 10:15 AM

and you just described all isolated incidents. Each one of those "problems" you described for mac happen DAILY with PCs with day-to-day use from an average user.

As for the "poisonous chemicals" article, everyone knows the ZDNet is Microsoft biased, and that it originated from a French newspaper, with a loose translation. And its the same as saying "Fish contain mercury, and mercury kills you, so fish are evil!! They will ALL kill you!!!"

Way to cherry pick articles.

LOL what? those articles were all over digg, and they are not isolated events

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/04/evidence-suggests-first-zombie-mac-botnet-is-active.ars

While Mac OS X doesn't suffer from the sheer amount of malware that Windows does, the creation of this botnet should serve as a warning that security through obscurity isn't a sound security policy—and Macs are far from being obscure any more.

Rob0711

Apr 21, 2009, 10:18 AM

LOL what? those articles were all over digg, and they are not isolated events

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/04/evidence-suggests-first-zombie-mac-botnet-is-active.ars

you do seem to have too much spare time :)

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 10:20 AM

pr5owner

Apr 21, 2009, 10:24 AM

Exactly. But the problem is that's not what we get from people like PR5Owner. It's the same tired "Apple is overpriced, Macs don't play games/Blu-Ray, I can build a system cheaper, there aren't enough choices with Apple, etc" argument, which is irrelevant, because all the information is plainly obvious to anyone who's purchased a computer in the last 12 years. We know. We get it. You don't like Macs. That's fine. Don't buy one then, and be happy.

It's the friggin' same crap every thread.

yeah same friggin crap

Windows is virus-ridden
Windows is unreliable
Windows crashes
Windows causes grief and frustration
It's a pain in the ass at work, and at home, too

We don't run or need to run any antivirus software
We don't need to do any maintenance to the OS to keep it from grinding to a halt
We have a much more stable system
No compatibility issues
Best in class software
Better looking software in terms of design/UI integration
Unix
Better-designed OS - certainly much cleaner code
Better looking OS

pr5owner

Apr 21, 2009, 10:25 AM

you do seem to have too much spare time :)

no just a 100mbit fiber connection at work that loads pages near instantly

Rob0711

Apr 21, 2009, 10:29 AM

no just a 100mbit fiber connection at work that loads pages near instantly

you still miss the point.

pr5owner

Apr 21, 2009, 10:33 AM

rofl. wow. the marvels of technology.

if canada was up to par it would be a 10 gig but north america sucks in general for infrastructure (cell phones included)

you still miss the point.

no you missed the point, i can still surf and do work becuase my computers and connections are FAST. the amount of time you lose for something to load is exponential as the day goes by.

So your boss pays you to spend all day trying to persuade us that Macs suck?

Oh dear. No bonus this year.

no please refer to the post above and i got my bonuse last week as they are quarterly, but thanks for coming out. (new 1080p projector is on its way :D)

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 10:35 AM

no just a 100mbit fiber connection at work that loads pages near instantly

So your boss pays you to spend all day trying to persuade us that Macs suck?

Oh dear. No bonus this year.

Rob0711

Apr 21, 2009, 10:37 AM

So your boss pays you to spend all day trying to persuade us that Macs suck?

Oh dear. No bonus this year.

unless that´s his job ;)

polaris20

Apr 21, 2009, 10:40 AM

yeah same friggin crap

I don't recall saying any of that. They're just as wrong as you are.

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 10:44 AM

unless that´s his job ;)

That's what I meant - he failed - so no bonus! :)

Seriously though, this one isn't even close to being clued up enough to get paid for it.

pr5owner

Apr 21, 2009, 10:53 AM

I don't recall saying any of that. They're just as wrong as you are.

that wasnt you, it was the guy directly below your post.

That's what I meant - he failed - so no bonus!

Seriously though, this one isn't even close to being clued up enough to get paid for it.

i guess im as clueless as CNBC then, (yes my ultimate goal in life is to be as cool as this guy)

http://i.gizmodo.com/5220277/cnbc-is-ridiculous-macs-come-with-photoshop-pcs-need-600-extra-to-perform-as-well-as-a-mac

dejo

Apr 21, 2009, 10:58 AM

that wasnt you, it was the guy directly below your post.
It might help if you included an attribution with that quote then. Multi-quote is your friend. :)

*LTD*

Apr 21, 2009, 11:04 AM

that wasnt you, it was the guy directly below your post.

i guess im as clueless as CNBC then, (yes my ultimate goal in life is to be as cool as this guy)

http://i.gizmodo.com/5220277/cnbc-is-ridiculous-macs-come-with-photoshop-pcs-need-600-extra-to-perform-as-well-as-a-mac

All he really got wrong was the Photoshop bit, the rest was correct in spirit. And positive news about Macs plays into a well-deserved reputation.

And about Windows being bad in 1998 . . . it was the same badly coded garbage in 2001, when MS in all their wisdom shipped Windows XP (in the age of the internet) with 5 open ports. XP was the most horrible, virus ridden, utilitarian OS until at least SP3. And XP seems to have been MS' best OS to date, which is the funniest part.

Windows 7, might be the first decent OS MS has produced since Windows 2000, that perhaps comes close to OS X in usability and aesthetics. But all of that remains to be seen. The most interesting part of all this, is that MS has nearly all their eggs in the Windows 7 basket. If that isn't up to par, that is - if it isn't ridiculously good (even MS' best work never is), then it's open season. It'll be anyone's game after that.

Eidorian

Apr 21, 2009, 11:43 AM

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 11:52 AM

Windows 7, might be the first decent OS MS has produced since Windows 2000, that perhaps comes close to OS X in usability and aesthetics. But all of that remains to be seen. The most interesting part of all this, is that MS has nearly all their eggs in the Windows 7 basket. If that isn't up to par, that is - if it isn't ridiculously good (even MS' best work never is), then it's open season. It'll be anyone's game after that.

Doesn't matter how bad it is, it'll be installed on 99.9% of PCs by default, so it will make loads of money for Microsoft and perpetuate the status quo, causing untold misery for millions and hindering the technological progress of mankind in the process.

Not that I mind... one of my best clients is an IT security company. Go Microsoft, build another OS as good as your last one!

AidenShaw

Apr 21, 2009, 12:27 PM

I love the new ads.

I do too - the "Laptop Hunters" series is clever and entertaining.

and your on here pretending like apple is the second comming of christ, your a fanboy!

I'm glad that you didn't use a similar misspelling for "coming"....

It's nonetheless rather frustrating to be eternally stuck in a holding pattern for a Mac that Apple will never make though.

Don't worry, Steve is gone and passed the baton to a bean counter. A mini-tower will be out shortly.

AidenShaw

Apr 21, 2009, 12:36 PM

... so it will make loads of money for Microsoft and perpetuate the status quo, causing untold misery for millions and hindering the technological progress of mankind in the process.

(...wait while the fanbois start foaming at the mouth because of the title...)

Seriously.

Although TBL invented the web in the early 90's, it was basically a curiousity used by a few people with incompatible servers and browsers running on the 2^12 different versions of UNIX and other proprietary systems (like NeXT) on the nascent Internet.

When Windows 95 launched with native TCP/IP networking, suddenly there were millions and millions of users with compatible (still proprietary rather than standard, but compatible) browsers. e-Commerce was possible - a business could reach most computer users in their homes without lots of specialized coding.

Apple would have closed its doors if Microsoft had not created Internet Explorer for the MAC.

Baffles

Apr 21, 2009, 12:36 PM

I can, easily. Of course I don't expect you to be able to say that, because you're a Mac fanboy and your fanboyism doesn't allow you to say that. I think the "You find it, you keep it" ads promotes PCs strengths very well (although, they still have a few things they can hit that would really take aim at Apple). They don't try to bash Apple. They don't write off the computers as being bad, but overpriced or not capable of doing what they want at a reasonable price.

Take the first "You find it, you keep it" ad, where they start off with a 1000 dollar price point IIRC. That ad really targetted Apple's price. Apple really doesn't offer a laptop under 1000 bucks (ok, the Macbook, but after taxes, it's over 1000 bucks, and even before taxes, it's 1 dollar below the price point). You may not like that they criticized Apple's price, but it certainly is a valid point to bring up.

The second ad with the price point of 1500 bucks emphasized the variety of options you get with PCs. You have a multitude of sizes, from under 10" with netbooks to over 17" with PCs. There are many PC laptops that offer more power at a lower price than what Apple offers. ASUS offers a 15.4" notebook with a 9650M GT and I think a 2.5 Ghz C2D processor as well as 4 gigs of RAM at around 1300 USD, or for the same price, you can get all the same specs with a 9800M GS. For 900 bucks you can get a 2.0 Ghz C2D processor, 4 gigs of RAM and a 9650M GT, or for 1000 bucks you can get the same computer with a 2.4 Ghz C2D processor. And it's not like ASUS is a bad brand. If they were, would Apple use them as a ODM? It's that type of variety that I think the Windows commercial emphasized at that price point.

The third size was 2000 bucks IIRC, and again, the subject of price came up.

I really think the ads are capitalizing on the current economic situation, and unlike the Apple comercials, they're not stooping to Apple's level of running a smear campaign (which is what their commercials are). They do concede that their computers look nice. They don't try and say that Apple makes bad computers (because they don't).

My whole problem with Apple's campaign is that much of it is perpetuating a fear of viruses and that Mac OS X is flawless. The truth is, if you're smart, you won't get Viruses. All it takes is safe browsing (don't go to sites you don't trust) and running anti-virus software. There are many anti-virus suites that don't slow your computer up and there are quite a few that are free. Often times, people who get viruses aren't a victim of security holes and vulnerabilities, but rather a victim of themselves. They simply don't know any better.

Another part of their campaign is them slandering Vista, when in truth, it's not a bad OS and that, contrary to what Apple presents, the "problem" with Vista wasn't MS's fault, but rather hardware vendors slacking off and not providing drivers for Vista. The UAC was another source of criticism, and it's one of the few claims that Apple does have a valid point in making. It certainly can get annoying, but it's pretty easy to disable if you're one who doesn't want annoyances.

They also claim that Windows is a victim of frequent crashes and freezes. Honestly, the last time I think I had a BSOD was a year ago and it turned out to be a Nvidia driver for my network adapter caused the crash. I was alerted that there was an update available as well. And before that, I can't recall of any. Many of the claims weren't the fault of Microsoft, but rather the PC manufacturers who put a bunch of pre-loaded crap on the computer, but currently, that's gotten much better, and it's all really easy to remove. The Apple commercial that brought up the money it cost to "fix" Vista was really a bunch of bull crap, as there was nothing wrong with Vista. The same question could be asked about the money it took to fix Leopard, which still doesn't work right for me on my MBP because of Apple's crap drivers.

Which is the same rhetoric we've been hearing since day one. Nothing new there, and of course, they blow it out of proportion.

Adds to the cost? You mean like free Anti-virus software that's easily found on the Internet (Avast, AVG, Avira, Win-Clam AV, and I'm sure there are a few others). The best spyware utility that I know of is spybot, which is free (and the only "spyware" that I ever get detected is tracing cookies, which affect all operating systems).

This was probably the best commercial. This is one of the fews I didn't hate. It actually promoted something they offer and told the viewers what they do better than MS.

However, Microsoft does offer a lot of decent programs via their Live services that are good for the price (free). But I personally don't use any of that junk like iPhoto, Garageband, ect. In fact, I don't use any of the iLife suite, but that's just me personally.

Hm... I've never had a computer freeze in the past or so years... Again, just more FUD from Apple's FUD department. Really, it shouldn't be a problem anymore for ANY OS now that they've ditched Coopertive multi-tasking (relies on the programs to give other programs controls, which can easily cause poorly programmed programs to hang). With Pre-emptive multi-tasking and its refinement, it's really not a problem any more. Early OSes that used Pre-emptive OSes weren't very good at it (like Windows 95), but it was still better than Coopertive multi-tasking.

I just put my troll armor on to come in and say I agree 100%. I was going to type out a similar post until I read yours. And before someone starts calling me a fanboy I'll squash that one. I'm just stepping back and looking at the big picture. I'm not drinking anybody's koolaid here, unlike a lot of you.

Baffles

Apr 21, 2009, 12:40 PM

I couldn't have put it better. Me too... now I wonder why some people can't accept that and move on?

And some people prefer "PCs." And, get this, Vista isn't as bad as the majority of you think. Now I wonder why some people can't accept that and move on?

Baffles

Apr 21, 2009, 12:42 PM

But that is the experience of many consumers watching these ads. Malware has ruined many a non tech-nerd's day.

Well, we just had that recent OS X trojan. I personally can not WAIT for the day OS X becomes more popular and starts having the same malware issues. It's already starting folks. Maybe it will knock some people off their high horse.

Baffles

Apr 21, 2009, 12:45 PM

*LTD*

Apr 21, 2009, 12:54 PM

Except.... its not. Windows is only virus-ridden if you're a complete idiot, if people were educated on smart internet practices it would cut down on a lot of virus issues. Actually, the biggest weakness in ANY OS is the user, and that is how a lot of virii get in place.

Windows is just as reliable as any other OS. I go for months without rebooting on Windows just as I do on my OS X and Linux boxes, no issues, no crashes, no grief and frustration.

Most people *are* idiots - not because they're necessarily stupid when it comes to tech, but because of busy lives, not enough time to learn, etc. Well-egnineered technology (consuemr technology) shouldn't have steep learning curves. In fact, the more idiot-proof it is, the better. Now, having said that, clicking on obviously dubious links shoud be clear to anyone, even Mac users. But alas . . .

So yes, people shold be more open to education about tech, but at the same time, if tech doesn't follow the KISS principle to some degree, it certainly doesn't help.

Steflinsky

Apr 21, 2009, 12:55 PM

the pc is very funny

Where is the ads in french ??? :(

Baffles

Apr 21, 2009, 12:55 PM

Well we do the same thing. Who's right? Who's wrong? Well, that's up to everyone else to decide. All I know is this:

We don't run or need to run any antivirus software
We don't need to do any maintenance to the OS to keep it from grinding to a halt
We have a much more stable system
No compatibility issues
Best in class software
Better looking software in terms of design/UI integration
Unix
Better-designed OS - certainly much cleaner code
Better looking OS
etc., etc . . . the list goes on and on

I wouldn't trade in my Mac for anything. I even hang on to my old Macs from years ago. They have quite a resale value, anyway. It's really all about the way you feel about the tools you use on a daily basis. I actiually LIKE doing work on my Mac. It's that simple.

The only reason you don't have to run AV software is because you're not popular enough yet, but don't worry, if you have your way, your day is coming. For the record, I don't run any AV software on Windows, of course I'm intelligent enough to realize when something isn't something I should be opening.

I don't do any maintenance except for occasional clean ups of my crap, and updates. The same as I do on my OS X box.

OS X isn't any more stable than Vista in any way that I have seen. Both stay up until I reboot them, often for several weeks or a few months on end.

Compatibility issues? None here, a few ancient programs won't run, then again, a few ancient Mac programs won't run on OS X either.

Better looking? blah blah blah, it is all personal preference. There are pros and cons to OS X as well as Windows as far as UI goes.

Unix? Great. I don't do much that requires Unix on my main machines, I tend to use Linux servers for that crap.

Better-designed? Cleaner code? You've worked for both companies and see what is ticking under the hood? DIDN'T THINK SO.

Better looking? You mentioned the same thing twice... are you running out of FUD?

Resale value is driven by Apple due to the high cost to buy a new one. Same reason why a Mercedes has a higher resale value than a Toyota. Doesn't mean much for quality/etc, just means it costs more. If you LIKE doing work on your Mac, enjoy it. But don't think you're some great person "educating" people on the problems with Windows when you don't even use it yourself.

Baffles

Apr 21, 2009, 12:56 PM

Most people *are* idiots - not because they're necessarily stupid when it comes to tech, but because of busy lives, not enough time to learn, etc. Well-egnineered technology (consuemr technology) shouldn't have steep learning curves. In fact, the more idiot-proof it is, the better. Now, having said that, clicking on obviously dubious links shoud be clear to anyone, even Mac users. But alas . . .

So yes, people shold be more open to education about tech, but at the same time, if tech doesn't follow the KISS principle to some degree, it certainly doesn't help.

Yes, the user is the weakest link. The same link that is present on Macs and PCs. So blaming Windows for the malware doesn't even make sense.

vipergts2207

Apr 21, 2009, 01:03 PM

Baffles, there is a multi-quote button right next to the quote button.

rwilliams

Apr 21, 2009, 01:49 PM

Windows 7, might be the first decent OS MS has produced since Windows 2000, that perhaps comes close to OS X in usability and aesthetics. But all of that remains to be seen. The most interesting part of all this, is that MS has nearly all their eggs in the Windows 7 basket. If that isn't up to par, that is - if it isn't ridiculously good (even MS' best work never is), then it's open season. It'll be anyone's game after that.

It is ridiculously good. I've never used a beta OS that was this stable and this well put together. Vista's betas were a nightmare compared to 7. I think Microsoft finally got it right with this new OS, and I look forward to both the RC next month and the final release. I think that having Snow Leopard and Windows 7 on the same machine will make me quite happy, computer-wise.

4D4M

Apr 21, 2009, 01:51 PM

And some people prefer "PCs." And, get this, Vista isn't as bad as the majority of you think. Now I wonder why some people can't accept that and move on?

Where do you want us to move to? This is a Mac site, we come here because we like Macs.

Well, we just had that recent OS X trojan. I personally can not WAIT for the day OS X becomes more popular and starts having the same malware issues. It's already starting folks. Maybe it will knock some people off their high horse.

You'll have a long wait; Apple's market share is unlikely to increase into double figures.

The only reason you don't have to run AV software is because you're not popular enough yet, but don't worry, if you have your way, your day is coming.

Only if Apple starts building boring boxes aimed at the corporate market. And then... well, they wouldn't be Apple, would they. So I sincerely hope they stay in their niche.

Resale value is driven by Apple due to the high cost to buy a new one. Same reason why a Mercedes has a higher resale value than a Toyota. Doesn't mean much for quality/etc, just means it costs more.

Here we go again with the same tired car analogies...

rwilliams

Apr 21, 2009, 02:04 PM

A pox upon the house of the next person who uses a car analogy!!!!

*LTD*

Apr 21, 2009, 02:09 PM

A pox upon the house of the next person who uses a car analogy!!!!

But they're so easy to make (and wrong.) ;)

Anuba

Apr 21, 2009, 02:27 PM

A pox upon the house of the next person who uses a car analogy!!!!
At least the next person who uses a German premium car in the analogy. How come there's never an American car involved? Hmm? Apple is an American company, after all. You're not ashamed of American cars, are you?

Hands off the Germans, they already have their own computer brand (Siemens), and stick to American cars manufactured in Asia. Here are some to choose from:

- Chevrolet Matiz

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Chevrolet_Matiz_Facelift_front.jpg/200px-Chevrolet_Matiz_Facelift_front.jpg

- Buick Excelle/Chevy Lacetti

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Chevrolet_Nubira_Kombi_Sweden_008.jpg/250px-Chevrolet_Nubira_Kombi_Sweden_008.jpg

- Chinese Ford Focus

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/05/medium_2528470333_94aff3e60e_o.jpg

There. Pick your Mac.

Eidorian

Apr 21, 2009, 02:35 PM

Don't worry, Steve is gone and passed the baton to a bean counter. A mini-tower will be out shortly.Thank god. I can stop spending my money on non-Apple hardware and software.

- Chinese Ford FocusOn a side note. I'm elbow to elbow in the previous generation of Focus in the front. It's rather annoying. Unlike my my Hyundai Elantra.

polaris20

Apr 21, 2009, 03:09 PM

It's nonetheless rather frustrating to be eternally stuck in a holding pattern for a Mac that Apple will never make though.

I want to give Apple my money but they don't want it. It gets old after awhile.

Well, I agree with that. If you do indeed want to use OS X, but your particular hardware need is unmet, I sympathize.

I've said before that a tower around the $1500 mark would do very well IMO, and I certainly don't oppose Apple making one.

Puddinman

Apr 21, 2009, 03:11 PM

The Mac vs PC debate can never be won by either side. Why? Because most arguments are subjective. However, there are certain facts that are true.

1. Malware is not a big problem on the Mac.
2. Macs require less set-up, configuration and maintenance than a Windows-PC and whatever is required is much easier on a Mac.
3. Macs run faster on the same hardware than Windows-PCs.

You can argue back and forth on UIs, software, hardware, ad nauseum, but most people who have used both systems can agree on those three points.

These are the points that Apple needs to hammer home to the masses. That's why these ads are so great. They keep hitting the same points over and over (in a clever way!) and soon, more and more people will get the idea.

AidenShaw

Apr 21, 2009, 04:16 PM

On a side note. I'm elbow to elbow in the previous generation of Focus in the front. It's rather annoying. Unlike my my Hyundai Elantra.

I smile at the ignorance of the fanbois who bring up Hyundai as the "poster child" of cheap auto crap - like Hyundai is the "Yugo" of the day.

They obviously have not spent much time driving or looking at recent mid-range or above Hyundais - I have, and it really makes me wonder if I've thrown a lot of money away by buying European sports sedans....

3. Macs run faster on the same hardware than Windows-PCs.

Linky please - you can't make an absurd claim like that without a pointer to proof....

[touch the "Submit Reply" button with my index finger]

KnightWRX

Apr 21, 2009, 04:25 PM

(...wait while the fanbois start foaming at the mouth because of the title...)

Seriously.

Although TBL invented the web in the early 90's, it was basically a curiousity used by a few people with incompatible servers and browsers running on the 2^12 different versions of UNIX and other proprietary systems (like NeXT) on the nascent Internet.

The only reason fanbois would start foaming at the mouth was because of your ridiculous ignorance and rewriting of history. The Internet standards in use today (DNS, SMTP, POP3 among others) were all written, standardised and in working order before Windows was even an idea in the back of Bill's head.

The Internet itself was close to 25 years old when TCP/IP finally shipped standard in Windows (which was 3.11 fyi, not 95).

All those proprietary Unix systems ? They were communicating with each other, through standard protocols. Microsoft is the one that tried to destroy the Internet with MSN back in the day and failed miserably. Vendor lock-in vs wide open network with documented protocols that are standard.

Pika

Apr 21, 2009, 04:30 PM

Like Hyundai is the "Yugo" of the day.PCs can have better specs than Macs but they provide a much better overall experience.

polaris20

Apr 21, 2009, 04:51 PM

I smile at the ignorance of the fanbois who bring up Hyundai as the "poster child" of cheap auto crap - like Hyundai is the "Yugo" of the day.

They obviously have not spent much time driving or looking at recent mid-range or above Hyundais - I have, and it really makes me wonder if I've thrown a lot of money away by buying European sports sedans....

Sorry, I definitely have to disagree. When shopping for a car for my wife last year, we looked at $30,000 Hyundai sport utility vehicles, and they were crap. Creaky, plastic junk.

We bought a Toyota instead, and the fit and finish is definitely better. But enjoy the Hyundai; you're welcome to disagree.

Anuba

Apr 21, 2009, 04:52 PM

1. Malware is not a big problem on the Mac.
True.

2. Macs require less set-up, configuration and maintenance than a Windows-PC and whatever is required is much easier on a Mac.
Mmmm... depends. Basic setup might be easier (fewer options during setup, easier to get WiFi up and running etc), but once you go into more advanced stuff you'll often run into more obstacles on a Mac. Ever tried permanently mounting a network share or configuring Leopard's firewall? I keep seeing forum threads like that all the time; some PC power user has switched to Mac and says "I always do [X] on my PC, how do I do it on a Mac?" and the response is usually along the lines of "oh that's easy, just go into Terminal and enter 'Q#=OEW"UAD"E%JASDkja34' and hold down Option+Ctrl+Alt+Fn+8+F1+Shift!"

3. Macs run faster on the same hardware than Windows-PCs.
Faster in what way? System tasks, benchmarks, what? What matters in the end (if you think speed matters, that is) is how well your software runs. Consequently the speed is often in the hands of a third party. None of the software I use daily runs faster on Mac. I use Adobe Creative Suite, and it's a well-known fact that the Windows versions of Photoshop et al are much faster than the Mac versions. If you want Photoshop to run really fast on your Mac Pro, you have to boot into 64-bit Windows and run it there. Runs up to 50% faster depending on the task. What use is a higher theoretical speed if your software runs slower in OS X?

If I had to pick three points, it would be...
1) Little to no chance of malware, 2) Eye-pleasing and well engineered hardware, 3) The OS was tailor made for the hardware.

These are the points that Apple needs to hammer home to the masses. That's why these ads are so great. They keep hitting the same points over and over (in a clever way!) and soon, more and more people will get the idea.
It's more or less the same points they've been hammering home for 25 years. Cooler designs... tighter hardware/software integration... no malware... better OS... easier to use... yada yada. People get it. Apple isn't obscure anymore, everyone knows about their stuff. It's just that 90% of the people who are curious enough to go into an Apple Store or check out apple.com/store, look at the pricetags and go "Ouch!!! Wow. Who do they think they are? Goodbye." The remaining 10% will think about it and eventually buy a Mac one day. The market share may continue to grow slowly, but the only thing that could make the Mac's popularity explode is a price cut across the board and/or the introduction of cheaper consumer models, and that's not gonna happen.
Sorry, I definitely have to disagree. When shopping for a car for my wife last year, we looked at $30,000 Hyundai sport utility vehicles, and they were crap. Creaky, plastic junk.

We bought a Toyota instead, and the fit and finish is definitely better. But enjoy the Hyundai; you're welcome to disagree.
Depends on which Toyota it is. If it's an Auris (successor to Corolla in Europe, not sure if it's being sold in the US yet), you're up to your neck in creaky plastic. The new Hyundai i30, on the other hand, is head and shoulders above older Hyundais in terms of interior quality/look & feel.

Anuba

Apr 21, 2009, 05:08 PM

AidenShaw

Apr 21, 2009, 05:16 PM

The... blah blah blah

Did you completely miss my allusion to the fact that in popular parlance "the Internet" and "the Web" are the same thing? Most people don't realize that "Http://" is not the only network standard.

Jeez, I thought that MAC folks were smarter than that....

I should stop assuming that anyone here has more than one brain cell in use.

polaris20

Apr 21, 2009, 05:17 PM

True.

Mmmm... depends. Basic setup might be easier (fewer options during setup, easier to get WiFi up and running etc), but once you go into more advanced stuff you'll often run into more obstacles on a Mac. Ever tried permanently mounting a network share or configuring Leopard's firewall? I keep seeing forum threads like that all the time; some PC power user has switched to Mac and says "I always do [X] on my PC, how do I do it on a Mac?" and the response is usually along the lines of "oh that's easy, just go into Terminal and enter 'Q#=OEW"UAD"E%JASDkja34' and hold down Option+Ctrl+Alt+Fn+8+F1+Shift!"

Faster in what way? System tasks, benchmarks, what? What matters in the end (if you think speed matters, that is) is how well your software runs. Consequently the speed is often in the hands of a third party. None of the software I use daily runs faster on Mac. I use Adobe Creative Suite, and it's a well-known fact that the Windows versions of Photoshop et al are much faster than the Mac versions. If you want Photoshop to run really fast on your Mac Pro, you have to boot into 64-bit Windows and run it there. Runs up to 50% faster depending on the task. What use is a higher theoretical speed if your software runs slower in OS X?

If I had to pick three points, it would be...
1) Little to no chance of malware, 2) Eye-pleasing and well engineered hardware, 3) The OS was tailor made for the hardware.

It's more or less the same points they've been hammering home for 25 years. Cooler designs... tighter hardware/software integration... no malware... better OS... easier to use... yada yada. People get it. Apple isn't obscure anymore, everyone knows about their stuff. It's just that 90% of the people who are curious enough to go into an Apple Store or check out apple.com/store, look at the pricetags and go "Ouch!!! Wow. Who do they think they are? Goodbye." The remaining 10% will think about it and eventually buy a Mac one day. The market share may continue to grow slowly, but the only thing that could make the Mac's popularity explode is a price cut across the board and/or the introduction of cheaper consumer models, and that's not gonna happen.

Depends on which Toyota it is. If it's an Auris (successor to Corolla in Europe, not sure if it's being sold in the US yet), you're up to your neck in creaky plastic. The new Hyundai i30, on the other hand, is head and shoulders above older Hyundais in terms of interior quality/look & feel.

No, I'm talking about their SUV's, such as the Highlander (which is what we bought). The similar Hyundai, while being a bit cheaper, was very, very disappointing, especially after having heard similar accolades as those from AidenShaw.

But we're digressing here with yet more car analogies. :D

AidenShaw

Apr 21, 2009, 05:20 PM

The similar Hyundai, while being a bit cheaper, was very, very disappointing, especially after having heard similar accolades as those from AidenShaw

It may be a matter of single product comparisions, and not looking at the larger picture.

polaris20

Apr 21, 2009, 05:26 PM

It may be a matter of single product comparisions, and not looking at the larger picture.

Maybe, but that's the market we were in. I also looked at their sedans and thought they were quite disappointing given the pricetag. But again, to each their own. I'll be sticking with Toyota and Nissan products for the time being. :D

Anuba

Apr 21, 2009, 05:41 PM

No, I'm talking about their SUV's, such as the Highlander (which is what we bought). The similar Hyundai, while being a bit cheaper, was very, very disappointing, especially after having heard similar accolades as those from AidenShaw.
OK, that would probably be the Santa Fe. Well... it starts at $21,000, the Highlander starts at $27,000. Clear cut case of get-what-you-pay-for.

What sets Toyota apart from the rest isn't the choice of materials, though (they use as much plastic as the next guy), but that their entire operation is one big worldwide quality assurance network. Every little Toyota repairshop in every little Hickville around the world sends data that goes straight back to the factory. If something is wrong with a new model they'll notice in a split second.

Not sure if there's any equivalent in the computer world, but I watched a clip about Fujitsu-Siemens quality assurance in one of their German labs and it was just bizarre. They spend more effort on stress testing the boxes that their computers ship in, than Apple spends on stress testing the computer itself. Apple are great on ID and R&D, but I'm not so sure about QA... I wonder if they ever put the MBA in some machine that opens and closes the lid one million times... if they did, what's with all these reports of hinge slop and hinge cracks? I wonder if the Chinese have been secretly putting melamine in the aluminium after the game was up with putting melamine in the milk. :p

polaris20

Apr 21, 2009, 05:49 PM

OK, that would probably be the Santa Fe. Well... it starts at $21,000, the Highlander starts at $27,000. Clear cut case of get-what-you-pay-for.

What sets Toyota apart from the rest isn't the choice of materials, though (they use as much plastic as the next guy), but that their entire operation is one big worldwide quality assurance network. Every little Toyota repairshop in every little Hickville around the world sends data that goes straight back to the factory. If something is wrong with a new model they'll notice in a split second.

Not sure if there's any equivalent in the computer world, but I watched a clip about Fujitsu-Siemens quality assurance in one of their German labs and it was just bizarre. They spend more effort on stress testing the boxes that their computers ship in, than Apple spends on stress testing the computer itself. Apple are great on ID and R&D, but I'm not so sure about QA... I wonder if they ever put the MBA in some machine that opens and closes the lid one million times... if they did, what's with all these reports of hinge slop and hinge cracks? I wonder if the Chinese have been secretly putting melamine in the aluminium after the game was up with putting melamine in the milk. :p

Completely agree (though the price discrepancy wasn't as big as the "starting prices" ;)) it is indeed you get what you pay for.

As it applies to computers, it's up to the buyer of the computer as to whether or not it's "worth it" or a "good value". So much of that is subjective, regardless of the country of origin.

I think the fact that both a regular PC and a Mac are Chinese-made are irrelevant in many respects. For example, their are some extremely well made guitar amplifiers being made by Vox, Orange, and Line 6 in China. There are also some major pieces of crap being marketed as guitar amplifiers being made in China. :D

Likewise, Lenovo and (IMO) Apple are both made in China, and both are exceptional machines.

Others also made in China, not so much.

Goona

Apr 21, 2009, 05:51 PM

http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=3499

Eidorian

Apr 21, 2009, 05:55 PM

http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=3499Microsoft doesn't set OEM hardware prices and only sells its software.

Oh really?

Anuba

Apr 21, 2009, 06:04 PM

I think the fact that both a regular PC and a Mac are Chinese-made are irrelevant in many respects. For example, their are some extremely well made guitar amplifiers being made by Vox, Orange, and Line 6 in China. There are also some major pieces of crap being marketed as guitar amplifiers being made in China. :D

Likewise, Lenovo and (IMO) Apple are both made in China, and both are exceptional machines.

Others also made in China, not so much.
The thing about the Chinese is that they're so cynical... cat toys made from cat skin pretty much sums it up. They can build high quality stuff if pressed, but they are also willing to build stuff of lower quality than anyone with any measure of professional pride would never stand behind. From what I've been told (I talked to a guy at a software company that wanted some hardware built, they went with Malaysia in the end), Chinese manufacturers basically offer you different quality level packages... you can have crap quality, so-so quality, OK-ish quality or decent quality. It's not "we'll do the best we can at this low price", they literally offer to build you crap as one of the options. I bet Wal-Mart opts for "Level F" all the time.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=3499
And in other news (http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=3103) from the same source...

"Beta testers of Microsoft’s Windows 7 operating system are four times as likely to be happy with the new OS than early users of Windows Vista, according to a recent poll of corporate IT pros.

In a poll of corporate IT professionals conducted by ChangeWave Research, 44 percent of the 68 users testing Windows 7 said that they were “very satisfied” with the beta. A similar survey by ChangeWave in February 2007, just weeks after Vista’s launch, found just 10 percent of the respondents expressing the same sentiment."

http://i.zdnet.com/gallery/286437-472-277.jpg

KnightWRX

Apr 21, 2009, 07:10 PM

Did you completely miss my allusion to the fact that in popular parlance "the Internet" and "the Web" are the same thing? Most people don't realize that "Http://" is not the only network standard.

Jeez, I thought that MAC folks were smarter than that....

I should stop assuming that anyone here has more than one brain cell in use.

Wait, you want to debate on a technical forum about the Internet, and then say the Internet is just the Web because that's what most folk think ? And then you call me someone without more than 1 brain cell ? Irony, AidenShaw is thy name.

Even if you want to say that the Internet is just the web, I fail to see how Microsoft is responsible for that. The Web was popularized with Netscape as the main browser, Apache as the main Web server, using technology developed on NeXT first, and standardised on many different Unix platforms before Microsoft even attempted to enter the market.

Then Microsoft used its OS monopoly to embrace, extend and kept innovation out of the Web for the better part of 5 years with an old, unstandard browser that refused to adhere to industry accepted standards. And you then want to come on here again and say MS created the Web ? MS almost destroyed the Web.

Seriously, why don't you just leave this site if all you want to do is troll and kiss MS's behind ? You're seriously just a sad troll and the only thing you're accomplishing here is lower your credibility more and more and more...

trevpimp

Apr 21, 2009, 07:36 PM

Not one? Really? There are thousands on this site alone. Check out threads with topics like "Why does the optical in my Mac Pro sound louder than a helicopter taking off?", or the umpteen threads about hinge problems on MBA (a repeat of similar problems on the PowerBook Titanium), MBAs overheating due to lack or excess of thermal paste... Remember the iMac G5 model with a failure rate of 30%? Or the PowerMac G4 that was so notoriously noisy a special site was created for it (www.g4noise.com)? The Cubes that cracked? Battery recalls?

They make Chinese PCs like many other manufacturers, and that's OK, it's just unfortunate that the pricetags give the false impression that Macs were handmade by Swiss watchmakers.

Ooo. I was talking about my friends and family and the reviews at stores like bestbuy and cnet. But I'll take a look around the forum for common problems.

Goona

Apr 21, 2009, 11:00 PM

I read this somewhere, found it quite funny, Microsoft should use this for their new slogan:

"Windows, when you can't afford any better."

trevpimp

Apr 21, 2009, 11:18 PM

I read this somewhere, found it quite funny, Microsoft should use this for their new slogan:

"Windows, when you can't afford any better."

You deserve some props man :D

Even for finding it. That was the motto of the day. Well for me. :D

Eidorian

Apr 21, 2009, 11:18 PM

I read this somewhere, found it quite funny, Microsoft should use this for their new slogan:

"Windows, when you can't afford any better."I really hope that you are joking.

4D4M

Apr 22, 2009, 02:03 AM

In a poll of corporate IT professionals conducted by ChangeWave Research, 44 percent of the 68 users testing Windows 7 said that they were “very satisfied” with the beta.

So 30 people are happy with the new version of Windows then? Sounds about right. Well done Microsoft, you must be very proud.

opeter

Apr 22, 2009, 02:27 AM

I read this somewhere, found it quite funny, Microsoft should use this for their new slogan:

"Windows, when you can't afford any better."

Linux is free...

poxonyou

Apr 22, 2009, 06:47 AM

They really need to retire this series. It's almost as if the ads speak to the converted more than anyone else. A regular Windows user does not experience frequent crashes anymore than a Mac user would run into trouble. So, a Windows user sees these ads and thinks, "That's BS. I use Windows and can't recall the last time it crashed." The bloated argument is OK, except I think if you ask any average (non-wealthy) person if they'd prefer a Mac for a bit more or a cheaper PC loaded with barely useable junk software, they'd choose the latter and just say they'd uninstall or ignore the programs they don't like. Viruses, costing extra for anti-virus software. "That's BS. I can download some of the top anti-virus software for free." (OS X is more secure, but people may be reluctant to believe that especially if the argument the ad makes against what the viewer currently uses is clearly dishonest to the viewer). That's not to mention the character they pick for the Mac is hard for many people to identify with. Mainstream Americans often aren't fond of what the Mac character comes off as (recent college grad, smug-ish, coffee shop dude). If these were ads shown in colleges, it may make sense, or if you wanted to limit yourself to college students and coffee shop bros.

I think a lot of people just aren't familiar with the look and feel of OS X and its top software. There is no reason for Apple to be shy about it because the look and feel kills XP, Vista, and 7 (to a lesser extent). Connect that with everyday people that viewers can relate to and you have a nice ad campaign. Not water cooler (soy cafe latte) chat for the already converted Mac users (like this ad campaign has been, as evidenced by the heavy positive chatter here and other Mac sites and little elsewhere).

iPhoneNYC

Apr 22, 2009, 06:54 AM

Should Apple be more aggressive in the face of the anti-Mac campaign? Or stay the course in their mild mannered jabs at PC?

poxonyou

Apr 22, 2009, 06:55 AM

I read this somewhere, found it quite funny, Microsoft should use this for their new slogan:

"Windows, when you can't afford any better."

This is the kind of thing that makes me hate Apple right now. They've turned into another brand for rich people (and hipsters trying to avoid anything too mainstream except when being ironic) to buy to make themselves feel better than the common people who can't afford them. In the early 2000's, Apple tried much harder to sell to the average person. The last few years have been just for those who are better off, or can use student loans to cushion the reality of what they're paying. I'm fairly certain this is intentional, in the same way Gucci doesn't sell a bunch of affordable purses or Rolex affordable watches even if they're made of the same material as something much cheaper. Rich people like that, but it means less people will always have Macs, less software will be developed for it, and there's a greater risk of damage if Macs fall out of fashion for the small demographics they've limited themselves to.

Anuba

Apr 22, 2009, 06:58 AM

"Windows, when you can't afford any better."
:D Wow... Whoever came up with that slogan sounds like an insecure douche with a pathological desire to be part of an elite. Poor Apple... to be a magnet for pathetic wannabes has destroyed many a brand.
This is the kind of thing that makes me hate Apple right now. They've turned into another brand for rich people (and hipsters trying to avoid anything too mainstream except when being ironic) to buy to make themselves feel better than the common people who can't afford them. In the early 2000's, Apple tried much harder to sell to the average person. The last few years have been just for those who are better off, or can use student loans to cushion the reality of what they're paying.
Nah... it's not like their products are astronomically expensive, they're just a bit overpriced. But you can still buy 4-5 cheap Macs for the price of one H20-cooled Dell XPS730.

I'm fairly certain this is intentional, in the same way Gucci doesn't sell a bunch of affordable purses or Rolex affordable watches even if they're made of the same material as something much cheaper. Rich people like that, but it means less people will always have Macs, less software will be developed for it, and there's a greater risk of damage if Macs fall out of fashion for the small demographics they've limited themselves to.
Yeah, there's always a certain risk involved when something that used to be exclusive becomes popular, especially when you have distinct designs like Apple does. It's just like when celebrities find a new club, soon the place is swamped by wannabes who soil the club's reputation, the VIP:s move on elsewhere and soon the place is sooo yesterday. There are already signs of the iPod fad having peaked, and with all this Mac product placement on TV plus the Starbucks crowd, the fashion gods could pull the plug on the Mac any minute and decide that Mac is so 2008, and in 2015 nobody's going to want to touch 2008 with a 20 foot pole.

Rob0711

Apr 22, 2009, 07:08 AM

Goona

Apr 22, 2009, 07:23 AM

This is the kind of thing that makes me hate Apple right now. They've turned into another brand for rich people (and hipsters trying to avoid anything too mainstream except when being ironic) to buy to make themselves feel better than the common people who can't afford them. In the early 2000's, Apple tried much harder to sell to the average person. The last few years have been just for those who are better off, or can use student loans to cushion the reality of what they're paying. I'm fairly certain this is intentional, in the same way Gucci doesn't sell a bunch of affordable purses or Rolex affordable watches even if they're made of the same material as something much cheaper. Rich people like that, but it means less people will always have Macs, less software will be developed for it, and there's a greater risk of damage if Macs fall out of fashion for the small demographics they've limited themselves to.

I don't get this kind of mentality, what the heck is a "hipster?" So what if you can afford a Mac, you know there are billions of people in this world who can't afford PC's, why aren't those companies targeting them, they should be lowering their prices to the price points of those people, so that they can have access to them. I wonder why so much Microsoft software is pirated especially in 3rd world countries, obviously those people can't afford it but yet you don't see Microsoft dropping their prices so that they can have access to it. I guess Microsoft and the PC companies are also elitists for not coming to the price points of these people. Dell is also elitist for bringing out the Adamo, why isn't it priced for regular people?

I don't know which early 2000's you lived in, Apple's products were never cheap. Look if you can't afford Apple products, learn to save money up, if more people did that, we wouldn't be in this financial mess we are in right now, get it used from someone, or get it refurbished. As for Macs being for rich people, I'm a student, I'm not rich, but I've learned to save my money for the things I want in life that I can afford and not go off complaining about things being too expensive and being for rich people. The Western world is built on branding, which is why the likes of Gucci, Rolex, Mercedes, BMW, charge the prices they charge, you build your brand up with superior products and you can charge what you want. That's life dude, get used to it.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 07:38 AM

Yeah, there's always a certain risk involved when something that used to be exclusive becomes popular, especially when you have distinct designs like Apple does. It's just like when celebrities find a new club, soon the place is swamped by wannabes who soil the club's reputation, the VIP:s move on elsewhere and soon the place is sooo yesterday. There are already signs of the iPod fad having peaked, and with all this Mac product placement on TV plus the Starbucks crowd, the fashion gods could pull the plug on the Mac any minute and decide that Mac is so 2008, and in 2015 nobody's going to want to touch 2008 with a 20 foot pole.
Do you honestly beleive that most of apples products rely on them seeming "cool" to others in order to sell?

I have an ipod touch because it is simply the best PMP in the market right now, not because I am trying to be trendy (I'm the last person on the planet you want to talk to about style).

poxonyou

Apr 22, 2009, 07:40 AM

Gucci, Rolex, Mercedes, BMW, charge the prices they charge, you build your brand up with superior products and you can charge what you want. That's life dude, get used to it.

It's not life, it's capitalism. I want to see more people using OS X. There is no reason this can't happen (at the moment) except Apple purposely limiting themselves as some sort of luxury brand. I save up money. That's how I got out of the US. But, living on my own and working hard for my money makes me more cautious on how I spend it. That's why I don't go around buying Rolex watches, nor do most people who work and save money. If I was filthy rich, sure why not? These are the types of people who buy extremely expensive luxury products, not average folks saving their money. Just don't see the point of Apple going this route. To be fair, Apple is a bit in between. If you look at refurbished prices, Apple is reasonably higher priced.

Anuba

Apr 22, 2009, 08:03 AM

Do you honestly beleive that most of apples products rely on them seeming "cool" to others in order to sell?

I have an ipod touch because it is simply the best PMP in the market right now, not because I am trying to be trendy (I'm the last person on the planet you want to talk to about style).
I know -- I use both the Touch and an iPhone for the same reasons. But that doesn't change the fact that Apple also attracts a wannabe clientele, and when a brand becomes associated with the wrong kind of people it can mean trouble down the line. Just look at Cristal (champagne), a very classy brand owned by a family business. Then out of nowhere came gangsta rappers and made Cristal theirs, yapping about it in every other song. And suddenly Cristal, once created for the tsar of Russia, was associated with pimps and hos. A spokesman for Cristal referred to it as "unwanted attention", which was putting it mildly. If Apple, however involuntarily, becomes intimately associated with a certain kind of snooty wannabes who think they're members of some imagined elite that scoffs at the "riff-raff" that don't use Macs, the Apple logo will soon become one of those things that trigger the general public's gag reflexes.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 08:06 AM

I know -- I use both the Touch and an iPhone for the same reasons. But that doesn't change the fact that Apple also attracts a wannabe clientele, and when a brand becomes associated with the wrong kind of people it can mean trouble down the line. Just look at Cristal (champagne), a very classy brand owned by a family business. Then out of nowhere came gangsta rappers and made Cristal theirs, yapping about it in every other song. And suddenly Cristal, once created for the tsar of Russia, was associated with pimps and hos. A spokesman for Cristal referred to it as "unwanted attention", which was putting it mildly. If Apple, however involuntarily, becomes intimately associated with a certain kind of snooty wannabes who think they're members of some imagined elite that scoffs at the "riff-raff" that don't use Macs, the Apple logo will soon become one of those things that trigger the general public's gag reflexes.

Oh man, I don't even know where to start with this one. Of course they also attract snotty people, as does almost every company on the planet. It only matters if the vast majority of customers are those buying for petty reasons.

Anuba

Apr 22, 2009, 08:15 AM

Oh man, I don't even know where to start with this one. Of course they also attract snotty people, as does almost every company on the planet. It only matters if the vast majority of customers are those buying for petty reasons.
What other computer brand attracts customers with inflated egos? Dell? Toshiba? Fujitsu-Siemens? Maybe Sony Vaio, a little bit, at least in the past before they entered the mainstream consumer segment, but Apple picks up the bulk of the a-holes and even if they only make up 5% of the customer base, they can still stink up the place real good.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 08:18 AM

What other computer brand attracts customers with inflated egos? Dell? Toshiba? Fujitsu-Siemens? Maybe Sony Vaio, a little bit, at least in the past before they entered the mainstream consumer segment, but Apple picks up the bulk of the a-holes and even if they only make up 5% of the customer base, they can still stink up the place real good.

Isn't that a bit of an elitist attitude in itself?

"I don't want to be seen with these (supposed) a-holes"

If you really care, well then what exactly does that say about you?

poxonyou

Apr 22, 2009, 08:22 AM

To put this another way, there's no reason Apple can't be the H&M of computer brands. H&M is cool as hell, make nice clothes, and are also one of the most affordable brands around. More people respect H&M than Gucci and brands like that (again, aside from rich people or wanna be rich people). Of course Apple can do anything they want, I just don't want to see them go that route. I can only justify paying extra for a slightly nicer product* to an extent. *Macs aren't by default better than (decent) PCs in every way. There's a lot of pros/cons on both sides, and depends a lot on the OEM and their current lineup.

Anuba

Apr 22, 2009, 08:34 AM

Isn't that a bit of an elitist attitude in itself?

"I don't want to be seen with these (supposed) a-holes"

If you really care, well then what exactly does that say about you?
I don't want to be seen with anyone or anything. I'm 40 and have better things to worry about. If I buy products they're intended for my own enjoyment, not for showing off to other people. Some people like the bling on their cars to be on the outside, I prefer one that's anonymous on the outside but jam packed with cool stuff on the inside. But this wasn't about me, it was about the general public at large and many people DO care about how a brand makes them look, so yeah, call it "inverse elitism" or whatever you want but it's definitely a factor and it has a potential to hurt Apple.

Eidorian

Apr 22, 2009, 09:11 AM

I don't get this kind of mentality, what the heck is a "hipster?" So what if you can afford a Mac, you know there are billions of people in this world who can't afford PC's, why aren't those companies targeting them, they should be lowering their prices to the price points of those people, so that they can have access to them. I wonder why so much Microsoft software is pirated especially in 3rd world countries, obviously those people can't afford it but yet you don't see Microsoft dropping their prices so that they can have access to it. I guess Microsoft and the PC companies are also elitists for not coming to the price points of these people. Dell is also elitist for bringing out the Adamo, why isn't it priced for regular people?

I don't know which early 2000's you lived in, Apple's products were never cheap. Look if you can't afford Apple products, learn to save money up, if more people did that, we wouldn't be in this financial mess we are in right now, get it used from someone, or get it refurbished. As for Macs being for rich people, I'm a student, I'm not rich, but I've learned to save my money for the things I want in life that I can afford and not go off complaining about things being too expensive and being for rich people. The Western world is built on branding, which is why the likes of Gucci, Rolex, Mercedes, BMW, charge the prices they charge, you build your brand up with superior products and you can charge what you want. That's life dude, get used to it.Why did you bring up your slogan for Microsoft to begin with?

Goona

Apr 22, 2009, 09:32 AM

Why did you bring up your slogan for Microsoft to begin with?

It's not my slogan, just read it on another forum and decided to share it.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 09:37 AM

I don't want to be seen with anyone or anything. I'm 40 and have better things to worry about. If I buy products they're intended for my own enjoyment, not for showing off to other people. Some people like the bling on their cars to be on the outside, I prefer one that's anonymous on the outside but jam packed with cool stuff on the inside. But this wasn't about me, it was about the general public at large and many people DO care about how a brand makes them look, so yeah, call it "inverse elitism" or whatever you want but it's definitely a factor and it has a potential to hurt Apple.

Why do you think so many others give a damn about what computer someone uses?

Baffles

Apr 22, 2009, 10:27 AM

But they're so easy to make (and wrong.) ;)

How was mine wrong? If a Mercedes sold at the same price point as a Toyota, for example, the resale value wouldn't be largely different like it is.

PCs can have better specs than Macs but they provide a much better overall experience.

That is purely personal opinion. I like my Mac, but I must say I've had a much better experience as a developer on Windows. Visual Studio, when creating GUIs, is pretty damn slick. XCode on the other hand.... that ****'s atrocious.

Do you honestly beleive that most of apples products rely on them seeming "cool" to others in order to sell?

I have an ipod touch because it is simply the best PMP in the market right now, not because I am trying to be trendy (I'm the last person on the planet you want to talk to about style).

Only techies will be able to see what you see though. Most people are like oh, an iPod touch. They are cool, I want one. So yes, most of Apple's products DO rely on them seeming cooler than others. Most people are just trying to be trendy.

4D4M

Apr 22, 2009, 10:29 AM

many people DO care about how a brand makes them look, so yeah, call it "inverse elitism" or whatever you want but it's definitely a factor and it has a potential to hurt Apple.

It's true that brands do go in and out of fashion, but when the label chasers move on, Apple will still have a loyal group of core users. We'll still be here, buying Apple's products because we like using them and/or earn our living on them. That won't change unless they start making really bad products.

Baffles

Apr 22, 2009, 10:31 AM

4D4M

Apr 22, 2009, 10:42 AM

I realize this, but they will lose a large group of trend-followers. You can not seriously believe that a large amount if iPhone/iPod/i* sales are not from such people, can you?

Yes I totally agree, that is definitely true of the iPod. Legions of kids now aspire to own a Mac because they got a cheap shuffle for christmas.

But after most of them have moved on and realised they can get a PC laptop much cheaper, Apple will still have a core user base. And will probably retain a few of the trendies who decide they want to stick with it.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 10:48 AM

Only techies will be able to see what you see though. Most people are like oh, an iPod touch. They are cool, I want one. So yes, most of Apple's products DO rely on them seeming cooler than others. Most people are just trying to be trendy.

Oh please that complete BS. I HIGHLY doubt people are buying the products based MAINLY on how they look. Maybe its about how they FUNCTION and the USER EXPERIENCE that they enjoy?

Your saying with that statement that 30 million iphone/ipod sales are mainly because those 30 million are trying to impress others.

poxonyou

Apr 22, 2009, 10:48 AM

I realize this, but they will lose a large group of trend-followers. You can not seriously believe that a large amount if iPhone/iPod/i* sales are not from such people, can you?

That's why I think this strategy is short-sighted. It's fine to go for people trying to follow what's cool, if you've also got some solid foundations elsewhere. Apple has lost a lot of ground in design, graphics, and education. They're trying a bit to make ground in film and audio, but think they could be doing much better.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 10:50 AM

Yes I totally agree, that is definitely true of the iPod. Legions of kids now aspire to own a Mac because they got a cheap shuffle for christmas.

But after most of them have moved on and realised they can get a PC laptop much cheaper, Apple will still have a core user base. And will probably retain a few of the trendies who decide they want to stick with it.

Please, PLEASE give me your data on this!

KnightWRX

Apr 22, 2009, 11:02 AM

Please, PLEASE give me your data on this!

Yes, please, because my data shows the exact opposite. Macs have a reputation for being a computer for men who like men usually.

That and the fact that every Mac user around me bought it because OS X is Unix, not because of some kind of cool factor.

Anuba

Apr 22, 2009, 11:06 AM

It's true that brands do go in and out of fashion, but when the label chasers move on, Apple will still have a loyal group of core users. We'll still be here, buying Apple's products because we like using them and/or earn our living on them. That won't change unless they start making really bad products.
Yes, but the core group that sustained the company through the late 90's and early 2000's aren't nearly enough to keep today's Apple in business.

Apple used to feed on individualism, but once classrooms start to look like this...

http://stashuk.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/071002_missouri_macs.jpg

...using a Mac becomes conformist, and the effect is made ten times worse by the fact that the entire product lineup looks exactly the same, so there's no room for "thinking different". Individualists will always fight conformism, and that's where the backlash kicks in...

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 11:08 AM

Yes, but the core group that sustained the company through the late 90's and early 2000's aren't nearly enough to keep today's Apple in business.

Apple used to feed on individualism, but once classrooms start to look like this...

http://stashuk.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/071002_missouri_macs.jpg

...using a Mac becomes conformist, and the effect is made ten times worse by the fact that the entire product lineup looks exactly the same. Individualists will always fight conformism, and that's where the backlash kicks in...

You are making the false assumption that the majority of people are as shallow with their money as you seem to think.

Edit: and why dont u actually get the backstory for that pic before using it as crap evidence for a horribly illogical theory

dejo

Apr 22, 2009, 11:13 AM

...using a Mac becomes conformist, and the effect is made ten times worse by the fact that the entire product lineup looks exactly the same, so there's no room for "thinking different". Individualists will always fight conformism, and that's where the backlash kicks in...
Fight conformity! Buy a Windows PC! ;)

Anuba

Apr 22, 2009, 11:17 AM

Fight conformity! Buy a Windows PC! ;)
Like I didn't see that cheap shot coming. :rolleyes:
Conformity is relative to one's surroundings, not relative to the entire planet. If all the kids at school have blue bicycles, conformists will buy blue ones and individualists will opt for a color that stands out. Even if the majority of the bicycles outside the school are red.

tobasco

Apr 22, 2009, 11:21 AM

As it happens - yes. A Kia Rio, and Kia Picanto (both owned by my other half's mum at various points). And most recently, a Merc C180 (rented for a weekend for a long trip to Kendal)

But the analogy is totally false. Mac's are not a Merc compared to a Kia PC.

Merc's are made of better parts, more powerfull engines, cunning suspension, trick differentials, an amazing stereo,

Mac's and PC's are built with the same parts, from the same manufacturers, and even built by the same people in the same factories.

So - if you want to use a car analogy - you need to find two cars with all the same components, with a different label on the bonnet, and massively difference price tags.

The car analogy is utterly utterly false in every way. Every time anyone uses it in this place, it should be a palm-to-forehead moment for EVERYONE. I suggest YOU stay away from it.

you are assuming Mac and Dell are using the exact same parts but just assembled in different boxes. let me explain
1) For commodity parts like CPU, HD, Memory, video cards etc, even though they appear to used the same parts on paper, in mass manufacturing, everything comes out on a bell curve. Which company do you think pays or is willing to pay a premium to obtain the higher end of the bell curve? Apple requires a much tighter incoming spec than their competitors. I am sure if you swap out all these parts and replace them on your own with parts from Newegg, chances are it will work fine, but it's a mass statistical game. Why was apple rated way higher in customer satisfaction than Dell?

2)for non-commodity parts like display, keyboard, trackpad, housing- every single Apple made item has been an engineering feat- ask around. For example, why do most graphic design industries uses Macs? The color matching/gamut and color rendering on Mac displays is simply better. If you pry a Mac apart you'll find "oh, but they use 'Samsung' display (for example), same as what I can buy at best buys". wrong.

3) the better car analogy is probably compare a Lexus to Toyota. Lexus uses lots of the "same" Toyota parts but internally the higher quality parts inevitably goes to Lexus.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 11:21 AM

Like I didn't see that cheap shot coming. :rolleyes:
Conformity is relative to one's surroundings, not relative to the entire planet. If all the kids at school have blue bicycles, conformists will buy blue ones and individualists will opt for a color that stands out. Even if the majority of the bicycles outside the school are red.

And again, why do u assume that so many people care so much about what others are using around them? How much of the population would honestly go out and buy a different computer simply because too many macs are around for them to have one?

You are making it sound like a computer purchase is 100% a fashion statement and we know all too well that is a flat out lie. But alas, perhaps it is your anti mac bias that leads you to assume the majority of mac purchases are a fashion statement anyway.

Goona

Apr 22, 2009, 11:23 AM

I guess we are still waiting for Apple to go out of fashion, whenever that is. I see the year 2015 has been mentioned, lol.

KnightWRX

Apr 22, 2009, 11:25 AM

And again, why do u assume that so many people care so much about what others are using around them? How much of the population would honestly go out and buy a different computer simply because too many macs are around for them to have one?

This kind of behavior is well known and it's called projection. What Anuba is doing is basically taking his own behavior and way of thinking and then applying it to everyone around him while denying it's his own way of thinking.

Anuba is in denial. He likes the "cool factor" and desperately wants a Mac to be with the crowd he imagines is "in".

4D4M

Apr 22, 2009, 11:32 AM

Please, PLEASE give me your data on this!

:rolleyes: I'm on your side dude.

All I'm saying is, some people have been attracted to Macs because it's a fashion statement. That's a fact, I don't need data, the evidence is all around us. I've even seen articles on the BBC TV news saying stuff like "Apple is the most liked brand".

But an even greater number of people, myself included, bought a Mac long ago and will continue to do so simply because we love using it.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 11:32 AM

This kind of behavior is well known and it's called projection. What Anuba is doing is basically taking his own behavior and way of thinking and then applying it to everyone around him while denying it's his own way of thinking.

Anuba is in denial. He likes the "cool factor" and desperately wants a Mac to be with the crowd he imagines is "in".

Oh I'm well aware of what he is doing. I find it highly ironic because he has stated several times that his involvement on this site is purely for a practice in debating skills (nothing wrong with that, I LOVE a good debate). Its ironic because he's using incredibly crappy techniques that would have him laughed out of an actual debate.

An argument based on a fallacy in logic is no argument at all.

4D4M

Apr 22, 2009, 11:35 AM

Apple has lost a lot of ground in design, graphics, and education.

Do you have any evidence for this? I thought it was quite the opposite.

Eidorian

Apr 22, 2009, 11:36 AM

It's not my slogan, just read it on another forum and decided to share it.I disagree with your desire to share it here.

On another note it's somewhat annoying to have the more neutral users here get baited by the same tired old statements.

Anuba

Apr 22, 2009, 11:41 AM

And again, why do u assume that so many people care so much about what others are using around them? How much of the population would honestly go out and buy a different computer simply because too many macs are around for them to have one?
Anti-conformity is a strong enough instinct to make some people rethink their purchasing decisions. This isn't hokus-pokus or speculation, it's a known fact. Here's an example of an ad campaign taking advantage of this (http://www.cnet.com.au/party-pooper-in-ipodville-240063666.htm).

You are making it sound like a computer purchase is 100% a fashion statement and we know all too well that is a flat out lie.
Not once did I suggest it was a "100% fashion statement", but I guess you're one of those people who can't handle several things being true at the same time, it has to be either-or, black/white, 100% or nothing. I said that SOME people are that shallow and that Apple attracts the bulk of them, which is natural since they're about the only computer brand associated with fashion. Even if they make up only 10% of the user base, losing 10% to another brand as the fashionistas and non-conformists move on would be classified as a disaster among shareholders.

But alas, perhaps it is your anti mac bias that leads you to assume the majority of mac purchases are a fashion statement anyway.
Or maybe it's your pro-Mac bias that makes it impossible for you to discuss things without getting upset if anything negative about Apple is involved. It's like trying to discuss the merits of scientology with Tom Cruise.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 11:44 AM

Anti-conformity is a strong enough instinct to make some people rethink their purchasing decisions. This isn't hokus-pokus or speculation, it's a known fact. Here's an example of an ad campaign taking advantage of this (http://www.cnet.com.au/party-pooper-in-ipodville-240063666.htm).

Not once did I suggest it was a "100% fashion statement", but I guess you're one of those people who can't handle several things being true at the same time, it has to be either-or, black/white, 100% or nothing. I said that SOME people are that shallow and that Apple attracts the bulk of them, which is natural since they're about the only computer brand associated with fashion. Even if they make up only 10% of the user base, losing 10% to another brand as the fashionistas and non-conformists move on would be classified as a disaster among shareholders.

Or maybe it's your pro-Mac bias that makes it impossible for you to discuss things without getting upset if anything negative about Apple is involved. It's like trying to discuss the merits of scientology with Tom Cruise.
Why do u think that it would be anywhere near 10% of the user base?

Baffles

Apr 22, 2009, 11:52 AM

Oh please that complete BS. I HIGHLY doubt people are buying the products based MAINLY on how they look. Maybe its about how they FUNCTION and the USER EXPERIENCE that they enjoy?

Your saying with that statement that 30 million iphone/ipod sales are mainly because those 30 million are trying to impress others.

Not based on looks, but because "all my friends have it"

you are assuming Mac and Dell are using the exact same parts but just assembled in different boxes. let me explain
1) For commodity parts like CPU, HD, Memory, video cards etc, even though they appear to used the same parts on paper, in mass manufacturing, everything comes out on a bell curve. Which company do you think pays or is willing to pay a premium to obtain the higher end of the bell curve? Apple requires a much tighter incoming spec than their competitors. I am sure if you swap out all these parts and replace them on your own with parts from Newegg, chances are it will work fine, but it's a mass statistical game. Why was apple rated way higher in customer satisfaction than Dell?

2)for non-commodity parts like display, keyboard, trackpad, housing- every single Apple made item has been an engineering feat- ask around. For example, why do most graphic design industries uses Macs? The color matching/gamut and color rendering on Mac displays is simply better. If you pry a Mac apart you'll find "oh, but they use 'Samsung' display (for example), same as what I can buy at best buys". wrong.

3) the better car analogy is probably compare a Lexus to Toyota. Lexus uses lots of the "same" Toyota parts but internally the higher quality parts inevitably goes to Lexus.

1) Umm, the parts are all the same. How is it a mass statistical game?
2) I dunno, but their new chiclet style keyboards suck. And I had to go through 5 MBPs to get one without a totally ****** screen. Their hardware isn't any different from anyone elses.
3) Resale value is influenced heavily by retail price, that is my point. If Apple dropped the price point of the MBP to $500 tomorrow, all these existing MBPs resale values would plummet. If they raised the price to 5 grand, the resale value would go up.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 11:54 AM

Not based on looks, but because "all my friends have it"

So that was a yes on the absurd notion that apple only sells so well because everyone wants to fit in with others?

You realize that 12 year olds are only a small fraction of consumers right?:rolleyes:

Goona

Apr 22, 2009, 11:56 AM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3546/3415672356_424fcd6c0a.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3550/3349048206_12a7e0ff53.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3658/3348215313_1ed1a58e2b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3644/3348214877_98e4a1eba8.jpg

Anuba

Apr 22, 2009, 11:57 AM

Why do u think that it would be anywhere near 10% of the user base?
Why do you think anyone would know what the exact percentage is? It could be 1.4%, it could be 42.83%. The exact figure is completely irrelevant, the point was that these people exist.

Goona

Apr 22, 2009, 11:58 AM

Not based on looks, but because "all my friends have it"

But we've been lead to believe not many people use Macs because of their small marketshare but now people are buying Macs because all their friends have one, right.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 11:59 AM

Why do you think anyone would know what the exact percentage is? It could be 1.4%, it could be 42.83%. The exact figure is completely irrelevant, the point was that these people exist.

No the figure is entirely relevant. You were arguing that by hinging on this group (which they arent in the first place, making your point moot) once apple is no longer "cool" they have some serious consequences coming their way.

elgrecomac

Apr 22, 2009, 12:04 PM

And this was their response? Clearly the Microsoft ads are working to the point where Apple is very concerned about their recently posted diminishing market-share. To really address market-share Apple needs to provide lower cost solutions, pure and simple. Not cheap solutions, not 'hip' solutions, but lower cost ones. I am hoping the soon-to-be-announced netbook is one of them.
:cool:
----------
17" MBP, 30" ACD, 3.5 Tb external storage, VMware Fusion running XP and Win 7 (the REAL Vista that should be of some concern to Apple)

Anuba

Apr 22, 2009, 12:06 PM

No the figure is entirely relevant. You were arguing that by hinging on this group (which they arent in the first place, making your point moot) once apple is no longer "cool" they have some serious consequences coming their way.
There you go again with the black/white. Nobody said they were HINGING on this group -- and what are you hoping to achieve by trying to track down an exact figure? You do realize that there's no database where we can check how many people bought a Mac primarily as a fashion statement, right? This is a what-if scenario full of abstracts, hypotheticals and speculation.

Goona

Apr 22, 2009, 12:07 PM

And this was their response. Clearly the Microsoft ads are working to the point where Apple is very concerned about their recently posted diminishing market-share. To really address market-share Apple needs to provide lower cost solutions, pure and simple. Not cheap solutions, not 'hip' solutions, but lower cost ones. I am hoping the soon-to-be-announced netbook is one of them.
:cool:
----------
17" MBP, 30" ACD, 3.5 Tb external storage, VMware Fusion running XP and Win 7 (the REAL Vista that should be of some concern to Apple)

Well the PC companies lost marketshare too even with all their cheap netbooks and the worse thing for them is the netbooks aren't bringing in much profit, a double whammy.

guzzlamiamor

Apr 22, 2009, 12:08 PM

tobasco

Apr 22, 2009, 12:09 PM

Not based on looks, but because "all my friends have it"

1) Umm, the parts are all the same. How is it a mass statistical game?
2) I dunno, but their new chiclet style keyboards suck. And I had to go through 5 MBPs to get one without a totally ****** screen. Their hardware isn't any different from anyone elses.
3) Resale value is influenced heavily by retail price, that is my point. If Apple dropped the price point of the MBP to $500 tomorrow, all these existing MBPs resale values would plummet. If they raised the price to 5 grand, the resale value would go up.

1) the parts are NOT all the same. it's impossible to make identical two parts. There's always a range of acceptable values/parameters in manufacturing. As a rough example, if you make 1 million HD, 60% of it will have average lifetimes, 20% will have higher, 20% will have lower. All manufacturers of all materials knows about this. They screen the high 20% and save it for the higher bidders. So even though all parts market claim they have say "50000 hour" life time, some will outperform. again, the numbers are just here to make a point.

2) to say Apple HW is no different is probably because you do not care about the differences or through personal experience, which is fair. I have also had a faulty iPod before but also had many crashed PC HDs. But for engineering designs, again, ask any artist which displays they prefer (and not for reasons that it looks fashionably better).

This is not to say the other companies are incompetent. They are in different market segments: dell is all about saving cost and Apple is all about getting details right and positions as the premium brand.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 12:11 PM

= Nobody said they were HINGING on this group

What else exactly was I supposed to take from this statement of yours?

"
Yeah, there's always a certain risk involved when something that used to be exclusive becomes popular, especially when you have distinct designs like Apple does. It's just like when celebrities find a new club, soon the place is swamped by wannabes who soil the club's reputation, the VIP:s move on elsewhere and soon the place is sooo yesterday. There are already signs of the iPod fad having peaked, and with all this Mac product placement on TV plus the Starbucks crowd, the fashion gods could pull the plug on the Mac any minute and decide that Mac is so 2008, and in 2015 nobody's going to want to touch 2008 with a 20 foot pole."

Because what I took from it was, once macs are no longer seem as "cool" they are going to take a major hit. Hence the "risk" you were talking about.

NT1440

Apr 22, 2009, 12:14 PM

The first one came and wouldn't even boot (manufacturing defect). Called Dell and they were very helpful. After about a week a new one arrived. After two weeks of heavy use I had a component failure.

To be perfectly honest here, you just had INCREDIBLY bad luck in that instance.

Rob0711

Apr 22, 2009, 12:23 PM

edited out...

kage207

Apr 22, 2009, 12:36 PM

This is my first Mac laptop and I didn't get it cause of my friends. :rolleyes:

They got a Mac after I got it. :cool: They realized why I liked Macs. I mean, I got an iPhone because I liked the iPod/Phone all in one. And then when the App store came along, for me to become a dev for it. I realized that I liked how well Apple products worked together. I mean, I got an iPod because I wanted the easiest PMP and then got the iPhone as mentioned. Then I got an ATV because I wanted something to rent / buy movies without getting up or worrying if the local Blockbuster was going to shut down. I then decided to get a Mac after looking into it. I realized that I'd get more options to have my devices work together with a Mac (I love how well they work together). Anyways I also realized that I'd have less problems with viruses and such and so I tried a Mac in the Mac store and loved all the features on it and that I still could get the work done that I needed to for school. Hence I paid $1,200 for a laptop that wasn't as good as a gaming one that my friend had but I have a Xbox 360 which plays the video games I want and the quality I want for less. I paid about $1,500 for an Xbox and my MacBook which I think does the job better than my friends "amazing" laptop. I can have multiplayer easier and a laptop that does what I need it to with the least amount of hassle. I think I won. I don't mind paying more for Apple products as long as they continue to meet my needs.

Anuba

Apr 22, 2009, 12:37 PM

I believe Apple's commercials will continue to generate converts while Windows commercials will ultimately do nothing. Windows is certainly not going to "convert" anyone from a Mac to a PC with this rubbish unless they are super strapped for cash, which as the commercial points out is really the only positive selling point. I was actually in that situation last year. Unemployed and badly in need of a new computer for various personal reasons. I actually bought a cheap Dell as a temporary solution until I could get a job and buy the iMac I wanted.
Right, and this highlights the main problem with the first "Laptop Hunters" commercial (the one with Lauren). They target the low-end segment where the computers are so crappy that they can only tarnish the PC/Windows experience. I use high-end Dells (Precision) and it's a totally different experience in every way. I've used low-end Dell laptops so I know exactly what they are like... wobbly plastic that creaks, keyboards that flex, dark/bright blotches on the screen, weak backlight, noisy fan, iffy trackpad etc. This Precision I'm typing on has been through hell, it's been dropped and tossed around and running almost 24/7 for 3 years, but the only sign of wear is a 'bald spot' on the Space key where it's a little shinier than the other keys. It's sad that there are all these cheapo PCs out there that make all PCs look bad, but... what can you do? You can deny people who are low on money the possibility to own a computer, or you can make cheap ones for them.
This kind of behavior is well known and it's called projection. What Anuba is doing is basically taking his own behavior and way of thinking and then applying it to everyone around him while denying it's his own way of thinking.
Another well-known behavior (and a desperate last-resort one, at that) is to pull something out of the ol' psychology hat in order to discredit a statement. Sorry to rain on your parade, but I already own two Macs so I could always show off those if I had any interest in such things. I'm gonna have to give you an F for FAIL.

Puddinman

Apr 22, 2009, 12:46 PM

Let me qualify my earlier comments:

For the average home user:

1. Macs are virtually malware-free
2. Macs are easier to maintain
3. Macs are faster than PCs on comparable hardware.
(Link to but one study: Click Me! (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/reviews/4258725.html?page=1))

Power users are a completely different animal. They are well versed in their system of choice and Apple has little chance of converting them.

KnightWRX

Apr 22, 2009, 01:47 PM

Or maybe it's your pro-Mac bias that makes it impossible for you to discuss things without getting upset if anything negative about Apple is involved. It's like trying to discuss the merits of scientology with Tom Cruise.

That's only if you see the world in black or white. The fact that you've been so negative about Macs in general has lead you to believe that everyone replying to your biased points is of opposite bias.

Reality is not what you seem to think it is however.

Another well-known behavior (and a desperate last-resort one, at that) is to pull something out of the ol' psychology hat in order to discredit a statement. Sorry to rain on your parade, but I already own two Macs so I could always show off those if I had any interest in such things. I'm gonna have to give you an F for FAIL.

Ok, so you think you're "in" now because you have 2 Macs ? Because you said it yourself, people only buy Macs because of some fashion statement. Hence, that's why you bought your 2 Macs right ?

Either your premise was flawed and you just contradicted yourself or I was right and you really are projecting your own ideas about Macs on everyone else.

Which is it ? Were you wrong or was I right ?