iTunes Europe - Starting in June?

[MacRumors]

According to one source, Apple may finally be bringing iTunes to Europe as early as the middle of June of this year.

The inital launch is reported to be aimed initially at the UK, Germany and France with the "rest of Europe" to be launched soon after... though no timeframe could be specified.

iTunes Europe has seen delays (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/04/20040416142354.shtml) which were previously attributed to licensing issues in Europe.

[Grimace]

According to one source, Apple may finally be bringing iTunes to Europe as early as the middle of June of this year.

The inital launch is reported to be aimed initially at the UK, Germany and France with the "rest of Europe" to be launched soon after... though no timeframe could be specified.

iTunes Europe has seen delays (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/04/20040416142354.shtml) which were previously attributed to licensing issues in Europe.

Bring on worldwide Apple dominance!!

:D

[Threnody]

That's all well and good, but when do Canadians get to play too? :confused:

[Dippo]

Finally, iTunes will surely take off after that.

Just don't jack the prices up too much!

[applemacdude]

YEah bring it on!

[Veldek]

Yahoo! Great news.

When I finally get my Rev. B Power Mac G5 and download my first song from iTunes, I will be the happiest man on earth...

[TRiPod]

Yahoo! Great news.

When I finally get my Rev. B Power Mac G5 and download my first song from iTunes, I will be the happiest man on earth...
Amen. Well, I can already use iTMS, but the PM part...

[JFreak]

probably music store and mini ipods at the same time in july? bring it on!

[swissmann]

The sooner they get in Europe the better. Additional costs can't be that much more, probably just small things like prices in Euros not US Dollars and the like but all the music is already in AAC format etc. More music sold the better.

[stoid]

Will this expansion bring a slew of new European artist's music to the iTMS?

[jholzner]

The sooner they get in Europe the better. Additional costs can't be that much more, probably just small things like prices in Euros not US Dollars and the like but all the music is already in AAC format etc. More music sold the better.


Well, all the music isn't in AAC format...I doubt they ONLY plan on selling US songs there...I'm sure they have every intention of selling regional music as well. So, they have a lot of encoding to do.

[musicpyrite]

Today- America
Tommorow- Europe
The next day- The world
Muhahahah

:)

Bring on worldwide Apple dominance!!

:D

[Stella]

Today- America
Tommorow- Europe
The next day- The world
Muhahahah

:)

The week after, the record companies kill all online music stores by rising the price to $2.49.

[macridah]

This will also help the new london store launch. This will be a good summer/year for europe ... ipod mini, itunes music store, new store ... cool.

Maybe I should start planning my vacation ...

[stoid]

The week after, the record companies kill all online music stores by rising the price to $2.49.

Apple will use revenue from the iTMS and BUY the record companies ;) :rolleyes: And STOP screwing the artists!!

[howard]

wow this is really exciting. I'm hoping this will break down some of the barriers as far as imports and getting music from other parts of the world. There are a number a bands i would love to check out in places... UK, Sweden, France, that either i can't get here or cost $30 cause its an import.

also, this could potential double if not more, the amount of downloads per week

[Nykwil]

possible ipod updates too I hope

4th generation ipods? :D

[Bear]

Maybe we'll hear something around the 28th of this month. Apple did say there wold be an itunes Music Store announcement around the anniversary of the store.

Of course this might just be the number of songs sold in the first year.

[SiliconAddict]

That it! Proof! G5 PowerBooks in June!!!! :D ;)

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

[crees!]

That it! Proof! G5 PowerBooks in June!!!! :D ;)

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

G5 Powerbook? Pfft. I want a G10 and I want it now!

[whooleytoo]

I'm surprised Ireland isn't in the initial list. It is a tiny market, but there's no language problem, no currency problem (if Germany and France are already being catered to), and Ireland's licensing laws are pretty much based on the UK's.

It's easy money! ;)

[hayesk]

Apple will use revenue from the iTMS and BUY the record companies ;) :rolleyes: And STOP screwing the artists!!

Well, they'll definitely lose their lawsuit from Apple Corps. Unless Apple Comp. buys them first.

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

Apple will use revenue from the iTMS and BUY the record companies ;) :rolleyes: And STOP screwing the artists!!
Has to be the smallest record-company ever then! ;)

[Zaty]

That's really great news. What's interesting though is that it will launch initially in Germany, France and in the UK, only. As I said in another post a few days ago, Someone at Apple Switzerland said in an interview at the beginning of the year that iTMS was ready to be lauchend in Switzerland but they would have to wait until the rest of Europe was ready. If this true, why can't the Swiss store and stores in other countries that are ready be launched on the same day as Germany, France and the UK?

[the_mole1314]

Good to see that Apple decided to do the one-country-at-a-time approach instead of the all-at-once approach. I think they'll get more money for it this way.

[Flowbee]

Today- America
Tommorow- Europe
The next day- The world


... And a couple days later - Canada :p

[mutley]

will downloading be the same price in europe as in the u.s.?

this would mean approx 55 pence for a 99c download...a lot cheaper than the "just under a pound" that i have heard...

presumably the software would detect the location of the purchaser to know how much to charge :confused:

[rjwill246]

That's all well and good, but when do Canadians get to play too? :confused:

When the CMRRA no longer has dingbats like David Basskin as representatives negotiating with Apple.

[mrzippy]

will downloading be the same price in europe as in the u.s.?

this would mean approx 55 pence for a 99c download...a lot cheaper than the "just under a pound" that i have heard...

presumably the software would detect the location of the purchaser to know how much to charge :confused:

Don't forget US prices don't include sales tax, ie. VAT in UK at 17.5% assuming music tracks attract sales tax and/or VAT.

So that would make them 65p a track.

[Llywelyn]

They probably are not going to charge "market price" for songs--they want the songs to stay relatively constant in value and 99¢/song doesn't have the same ring to it when you get to countries that don't use the US Dollar or are indexed off of it (such as Cayman).

I find it more likely that they will set a constant value in whatever the local currency happens to be. Be it the Euro, the pound, or swiss francs. Much easier (and safer) than having the price contingent on the strength of the dollar. What, exactly, that value is going to be is anyone's guess.

[iJed]

If this is true then I look forward to ordering my first tracks from iTMS in the UK. Although since everything is more expensive in the UK I think I would be willing to pay up to about 85p per track (including VAT). I'm not sure that I'd pay anything more than that.

[iChan]

Will this expansion bring a slew of new European artist's music to the iTMS?
should do... that is the only way they are going to appeal to local consumers... i don't wanna buy some music from some obscure american artist that i havn't heard of when the UK number one isn't on the site yet because they havn't launched their music in america yet.

[iChan]

The week after, the record companies kill all online music stores by rising the price to $2.49.

then hopefully, mass chaos ensues.

[iChan]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Ireland too!!!!!!

[iChan]

Good to see that Apple decided to do the one-country-at-a-time approach instead of the all-at-once approach. I think they'll get more money for it this way.

i agree, as long as that includes ireland...

[iChan]

will downloading be the same price in europe as in the u.s.?

this would mean approx 55 pence for a 99c download...a lot cheaper than the "just under a pound" that i have heard...

presumably the software would detect the location of the purchaser to know how much to charge :confused:

i am sure it would be less than 99p... Apple have recently been taking a more progressive approach to pricing in overseas markets, highlighted with the comments made by an Apple exec about the iPod Mini price in europe and evidenced by the recent apple updates of emacs and ibooks and powerbooks...

[vollspacken]

possible ipod updates too I hope

4th generation ipods? :D

I hope so, too...

I want to buy an iPod right now, but I want to stay true to my habit of buying right after an update is announced...

c'mon Apple, bring on the 4th generation :)

vSpacken

[iChan]

i think apple should merge with apple corp and then spin off a whole new music division...

they can then proceed to attract new artists while not being tied down with leggal obligations and also, they have the whole beatles back catalougue!

[iJed]

I hope so, too...

I want to buy an iPod right now, but I want to stay true to my habit of buying right after an update is announced...

c'mon Apple, bring on the 4th generation :)

vSpacken


I too am waiting for a 4G iPod. Hopefully they will be launched really soon.

[wembley]

That's all well and good, but when do Canadians get to play too? :confused:

When they get rid of those protectionist "Canadian Content" laws.

And silly stuff like taxing blank CDs to give more money to Shania Twain and Blue Rodeo.

[wembley]

Will this expansion bring a slew of new European artist's music to the iTMS?

I hope so!

Anything that lets me buy more Porcupine Tree albums.

[stoid]

presumably the software would detect the location of the purchaser to know how much to charge :confused:

It works based on the credit card mailing address. My older brother is a missionary over in Taiwan, but has no trouble whatsoever using iTMS with his America based credit card.

So Canadians want iTMS now? Get a credit card with a US (probably P.O. Box) address and have fun ;)

[IMAGJE]

Yes!!! :-) Finally! I have been thinking about asking some friends in the states to simply buy a few iTMS "checks" and mail them over here, but this is really good news. the music business has lost about 50 sales from just me not bothering to buy the last six months, lots of songs about to be bought I guess when you see eBay auctions selling iTMS coupons from Target (USA) in Germany ;-)

bring 'em on Apple! :)

[wrylachlan]

Didn't someone who had listened to the whole conference call say that there was some sort of apple iPod event planned for the 1 year anniversary?

[NOV]

:( Holland is not on the list for initial release.

I had a look at the only alternative at the moment (AFAIK), which is called "Tiscali Music Club" but actually is a OD2 product. Well it's WMA, expensive (€ 1.79 for most songs), so not really interesting for me.

I'm really looking forward for prices over here, but if it becomes twice as expensive as in the USA, I'm not gonna buy anything.

[dbasskin]

When the CMRRA no longer has dingbats like David Basskin as representatives negotiating with Apple.

I don't believe we've met or corresponded before. Might I ask on what basis you consider me to be a "dingbat"? What a deadly foe you must be in a debate! You're prepared to ... what? Stick out your tongue? Stamp your little foot? Hold your breath until you turn blue?

Make sense or shut up.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

[Windowlicker]

I'm really looking forward for prices over here, but if it becomes twice as expensive as in the USA, I'm not gonna buy anything.

yeah well, I guess they'll be pretty much the same.. 99c (0,99EUR) doesn't sound that bad to me. I guess it's possible too. Anyway at last they're talking about taking the service to european customers. the bad thing about apple is they get the stuff outside US too slowly :P that's just my opinion though and I completely understand if they can't get everything across the sea in one day..

summa summarum: welcome iTMS!

[toontra]

Don't forget US prices don't include sales tax, ie. VAT in UK at 17.5% assuming music tracks attract sales tax and/or VAT.

So that would make them 65p a track.

Dream on. We'll get stuffed as usual. My guess in 85p minimum. Lets face it, w've been subsidising the US market for years - why should this be any different.

[Stella]

Don't expect the UK price be a straight conversion of the US price. I think it'll be 99p per track - rip off Britain.


Dream on. We'll get stuffed as usual. My guess in 85p minimum. Lets face it, w've been subsidising the US market for years - why should this be any different.

[MacFan25]

I think that many people will be very happy about this. This will only help Apple sell even more iPods. :)

Hopefully it will be received well over there.

[edenwaith]

Personally, I think they should start in San Marino. So what if Germany has 80+ million people?! Pfff! Like that matters! San Marino, or nothing!

[winmacguy]

I think that many people will be very happy about this. This will only help Apple sell even more iPods. :)

Hopefully it will be received well over there.

Apple's problem is NOT SELLING iPods it is in getting enough of them made to meet the current demand. There is still a big waiting list in a lot of countries when you order an iPod from an appliance/computer/or Apple Reseller store because they have either sold out of their stock and the next shipment hasnt arrived in the country yet.

iPods sold outside of the US sell because their form, function and ease of use and because they are the best product on the market, not because they can download music from the internet

The interesting thing is that out side of the US some of the people who have iPods dont realise you can PLAY music on them ( they use them as a portable storage device). Most people dont realise that you can use iTunes to get music from the iTMS, and the people who do have music on their iPods (like the rest of us) have ripped it from their CD collection.

[skunk]

God, there's a whole ********* of stuff I'm itching to download! I'm going to have to seriously ration myself. :D

[hulugu]

Well, they'll definitely lose their lawsuit from Apple Corps. Unless Apple Comp. buys them first.

That's right, buy Apple Records and make them produce something besides lawsuits. Too bad it wouldn't come with the entire Beatles' catalog.

[skunk]

That's right, buy Apple Records and make them produce something besides lawsuits.
That's all they know how to do.

[iMe]

Don't expect the UK price be a straight conversion of the US price. I think it'll be 99p per track - rip off Britain.

so i bet you now wish that you had the euro too... as this would have saved you a few bucks.. but since you all prefer the stirling pound :-)

[skunk]

so i bet you now wish that you had the euro too... as this would have saved you a few bucks..
Not enough of a reason. Don't get me started.

[crenz]

Apple will use revenue from the iTMS and BUY the record companies ;) :rolleyes: And STOP screwing the artists!!

Won't happen. Don't forget that Apple pays more in license fees than they earn from the store themselves. That is, if they are earning money already. So the more the ITMS grows, the more the record companies grow.

[crenz]

David A. Basskin

Somehow, I find it hard to believe that a Canadian music executive would find his way to these boards. If it is true, however, it would be interesting to hear more about your stand on digital downloads. I'm very confused by all the price raising rumours I'm hearing -- seems that with $0.99 per track (and I think $0.35 of that is license fees), it should be attractive to support digital downloads.

As for me, I think ITMS in Europe will generate a lot of good press for Apple, which is good. I might buy a couple of hard-to-get tracks, but otherwise I think it's just not worth it. My bet is the German price will be at least €1,09 per track (16% GST here, US$ catching up) and for that I get no CD, liner notes, album art. Plus I'm very skeptical about the interoperability of AAC (or even worse WMA) withe the computing platform I'm going to use ten years down the road.

I'll continue to do what I do now: Refrain from buying copy-protected CDs (which includes most new mainstream productions), buy cheap or used CDs or buy from independent labels. I already bought about 6 albums this year, by the way.

[Macmaniac]

This is very good news, I hope they can start ITMS in Canada as well!

[winmacguy]

Somehow, I find it hard to believe that a Canadian music executive would find his way to these boards. If it is true, however, it would be interesting to hear more about your stand on digital downloads. I'm very confused by all the price raising rumours I'm hearing -- seems that with $0.99 per track (and I think $0.35 of that is license fees), it should be attractive to support digital downloads.

As for me, I think ITMS in Europe will generate a lot of good press for Apple, which is good. I might buy a couple of hard-to-get tracks, but otherwise I think it's just not worth it. My bet is the German price will be at least €1,09 per track (16% GST here, US$ catching up) and for that I get no CD, liner notes, album art. Plus I'm very skeptical about the interoperability of AAC (or even worse WMA) withe the computing platform I'm going to use ten years down the road.

I'll continue to do what I do now: Refrain from buying copy-protected CDs (which includes most new mainstream productions), buy cheap or used CDs or buy from independent labels. I already bought about 6 albums this year, by the way.
I wouldnt be surprised if it was the real David Basskin as he posted a number of comments on one the threads earlier on this year regarding pricing disparities between the US and Canada and when Canada would get the iTMS, so welcome to Mac Bytes Mr Basskin.

[macjohnmcc]

After I bought about two albums worth of songs I realized that for just a little more I could by a CD that I can listen to in 20 years instead of some files that I may not be able to play in 5 years. I have only recently been tempted to buy more songs since there are a few albums now on the iTMS that are out of print and difficult or impossible to find otherwise. I think that is where the benefits of online music benefits. It's cheap to offer a CD that has a small audience without producing a lot of CD's that will sit around collecting dust.

[Bulgroz]

The inital launch is reported to be aimed initially at the UK, Germany and France with the "rest of Europe" to be launched soon after... though no timeframe could be specified.


I'm not sure it's possible. I think that legally if you sell a product in one country of the European Union, you cannot forbid people from other countries of the EU to buy it.

[Flowbee]

After I bought about two albums worth of songs I realized that for just a little more I could by a CD that I can listen to in 20 years instead of some files that I may not be able to play in 5 years.

You do realize that you can burn those files to an audio CD, right?

[skunk]

You do realize that you can burn those files to an audio CD, right?
Doh! :rolleyes:

[hanssolo]

The artists still get screwed: http://www.downhillbattle.org/itunes/

As long as Apple just license the music, the record companies are still in control over the artists royalties, and now they can pay even less, since iTunes takes its cut too.

[rjwill246]

I don't believe we've met or corresponded before. Might I ask on what basis you consider me to be a "dingbat"?
David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

If you are the person quoted here you are, indeed, a dingbat, to put it politely. Appalling to think that Apple would have to deal with THAT person, who claims to represents Canada's interests.


"We are as frustrated as you with the fact that iTunes Music Store isn't yet available in Canada," the CMRRA recently told an AppleInsider correspondent who was researching the subject. "We would be delighted to see them here."

"As well as completing their agreement with us, they must also make licensing arrangements for the use of the recordings they will distribute, establish their infrastructure and billing system for Canada and develop a marketing plans for Canada," said David Basskin, President of CMRRA Ltd. Basskin said he has no doubt that Apple is capable of completing all of these tasks, but noted that they are all prerequisites to launching the iTunes Music Store in Canada."

This idiot, whoever he is, might as well ask Apple to dodge bullets, catch fish and perform circus tricks on a high-wire. It'd be fun to actually debate someone so capable of gobbldeygook as this.Talk about circuitous triple speak.
If this was not you, don't sweat it.
If it was, I would be more than happy to help subsidise the CA health system to extricate your head from your you-know-what. It could end up (pun not intended) helping Apple actually get Canadians a fair crack at the iTMS!

[winmacguy]

Apple may be anticipating the EU bill which is due to be passed in the next couple of months allowing the pan european downloading of legal digital music files. This is one of the things that has been holding them back till now.

[macjohnmcc]

You do realize that you can burn those files to an audio CD, right?

Yeah and at a reduced quality compared to the original CD. Also those CD's you burn yourself do not have a long shelf life. There was an article recently where those 100 year CD-R's only lasting about 5 years. I have had CD-R's I've burned much more recently than 5 years ago that I can no longer read even though they were of good quality and verified after the burn.

[gwangung]

The artists still get screwed: http://www.downhillbattle.org/itunes/

As long as Apple just license the music, the record companies are still in control over the artists royalties, and now they can pay even less, since iTunes takes its cut too.

Um, really?

That's the situation NOW...but what's stopping artists from negotiating separately for CD and online for the next contracts? Or for new groups to negotiate the two separately?

High demand for iTunes Store PLUS high demand for independent stores will, I predict, loosen the RIAA's grip on artists....and you got to have BOTH to do that....

[dbasskin]

Yes, I'm who I say I am. Please see our web site (http://www.cmrra.ca) for more information. I'm afraid I don't see what your problem is, rjwill. Want to call me names? Go crazy, big guy. Mind you, I'm a bit confused at the concern of somebody living (simultaneously?) in Nevada and Australia, but let it pass.

Because sound recordings are protected by copyright, Apple needs to obtain permission to distribute copies of those recordings from their respective owners. But that's not all they have to do. Each recording contains a musical composition - a song, in plain English. The record companies don't own the songs. When they manufacture CD's, they obtain licenses from the song owners (we call them "music publishers" in the business). On behalf of our music publisher clients, we've issued millions of these licenses to the record companies. However, these licenses aren't transferable. The record companies can't pass along our rights when they license their recordings to online companies. In order to complete the picture, the online companies must obtain licenses from CMRRA for their distribution of copies of our clients' songs.

We're well down the road in licensing the two music distribution services presently operating in Canada - namely, Puretracks and Archambault. As bigtime Apple fans ourselves, we're disappointed that neither service supports the Mac or the iPod, but that's a matter in the hands of those companies. We're happy to license our clients' songs for distribution on any platform - music publishers don't make money saying "no" to licensing opportunities.

Ever since Apple launched the iTunes Music Store, we've been in discussions with them, and we've offered them the same deal as every other online music distribution company. We've also licensed MusicNet and Napster, although neither company has yet started up its Canadian operations.

Like it or not, Apple has the sole right to make the decisions on when it will launch IMS in Canada or any other territory outside the United States. We'd have been overjoyed to see them start up in Canada by now, and we stand ready to do business with them the moment they're ready. But we can't force them to do so. The best way to get the message across is for Mac and iPod enthusiasts to let Apple's Canadian office know, loud and clear, how anxious you are to become their customer. I have no explanation to offer for their reluctance to move ahead - personally, I look forward to being an IMS customer myself!

Now, rjwill, if you have the guts to explain your views on these matters, why don't you post them here or email me at dbasskin@cmrra.ca or call me at (416) 926-1966, ext. 222. You can even snail-mail me a letter at 56 Wellesley St. W. Suite 320, Toronto, Ontario Canada M5S 2S3. If all you want to do is snipe and call names from a safe distance, well, have a nice day.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

[dbasskin]

I wouldnt be surprised if it was the real David Basskin as he posted a number of comments on one the threads earlier on this year regarding pricing disparities between the US and Canada and when Canada would get the iTMS, so welcome to Mac Bytes Mr Basskin.

Thanks for the kind welcome.

As to crenz's question on retail pricing levels for the sale of online music, it's obviously a matter of general concern to us, but pricing decisions are entirely in the hands of the operators of online services, Apple included. What we sell is the right to reproduce the songs which are owned and administered by our music publisher clients. In effect, we're a supplier of a necessary component of what an online music service sells, just as the record companies supply the recordings, the service's ISP supplies the line facilities and so on. Retail pricing decisions are entirely in the hands of the online service operator.

Strictly on a personal basis, I think it's unwise for per-track costs to increase beyond the corresponding level of a track on a manufactured CD, but, again, pricing isn't my issue. I'm here to ensure that my music publisher clients and the songwriters they represent get a fair royalty rate, and accurate and timely royalty reporting and payment.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

[onemoof]

Dream on. We'll get stuffed as usual. My guess in 85p minimum. Lets face it, w've been subsidising the US market for years - why should this be any different.

Hey, we're subsidizing your price-controlled health care. Want to trade?

[iMeowbot]

The sooner they get in Europe the better. Additional costs can't be that much more, probably just small things like prices in Euros not US Dollars and the like but all the music is already in AAC format etc. More music sold the better.

It can get really messy. There are often different labels carrying the rights to a set of songs in each country, and what is released varies too. Track selections, artwork, even small variations in song lyrics turn up in different markets -- and of course there are the differences in release dates that studios and labels seem reluctant to give up. People have always been able to work around this by purchasing imported recordings, but are labels going to go for that with something like iTMS where more direct control can be exercised?

[~Shard~]

Personally, I think they should start in San Marino. So what if Germany has 80+ million people?! Pfff! Like that matters! San Marino, or nothing!

I'm with you man - poeple need to be able to wirelessly connect to the iTMS from the slopes of Mount Titano and load up some tunes to their iPod! :cool:

[visor]

As far as the limitation to France, Germany and UK is quite credible. If you walk alonf apple.com you can frequently observe translated pages to frech and german, but no other european languages. Seems like apple has quite a focus on the 'Big 3'.
The timeframe to june should be managable as well

[Patmian212]

Never going to happen because of licensing problems!

People in europe are to hung up on P2P. No one will buy music.

[toontra]

Hey, we're subsidizing your price-controlled health care. Want to trade?
Apart from being off topic, what on earth are you talking about!

[Colonel Panik]

I'll continue to do what I do now: Refrain from buying copy-protected CDs (which includes most new mainstream productions), buy cheap or used CDs or buy from independent labels. I already bought about 6 albums this year, by the way.

It's funny that you should say that, because I was doing the same, and had bought a couple of copy-protected CDs by mistake and swore never to do the same again. When I put the 'CD's into my standalone CD player, it would spin and negociate the 'CD' for about 2 minutes, before finally playing.
But then one day I put it into my PC running iTunes, and it ripped just like any other CD. So now I'm not so shy of buying cheap copy-protected CDs.

The biggest disadvantage to the artists of a true copy-protected CD is that at parties and gatherings, their music will not be heard by others, as I'm certainly not going to be a DJ for the night, and I'm not going to shuffle CDs and wait for the player to understand the 'CD'. But now that I have the music on my HD, it's jukebox time again.

Record executives are so out of touch with the way people listen to their music that it's worse than sad.

[Colonel Panik]

The interesting thing is that out side of the US some of the people who have iPods dont realise you can PLAY music on them ( they use them as a portable storage device). Most people dont realise that you can use iTunes to get music from the iTMS, and the people who do have music on their iPods (like the rest of us) have ripped it from their CD collection.

You are joking, right? Who in their right mind would pay +€500 for a 40GB portable firewire HD?

[winmacguy]

You are joking, right? Who in their right mind would pay +€500 for a 40GB portable firewire HD?

No I am not joking at all. I was talking to some of the woman in one of the eveing partime graphic design classes at the school I am studying at. They both had iPods, i am not sure if they were the 15 or 20GB versions. They were using them as file storage and not as MP3 players. In NZ the 20GB iPod costs $749 NZ, although most people I talk to dont realise that you can actually store files that are not music files on them.

Most people I show iTunes to at school as me if that is all the music that I have downloaded from the filesharing networks. I have to explain that iTunes is not designed for that although you can convert .wma files to MP3 files and import them into iTunes.

Our admin tech guy at school just got himself the 40GB iPod for his music files and also for carrying other files and a spare OS or 2 on it.

[eSnow]

Thank goodness, they finally saw the light and decided to go ahead in core Europe instead of waiting for the recording industry association of Denmark and Luxemburg.

In Germany, Apple is already behind an established competition, now let's hope they kick some serious ass (promotions, anyone?).

[starboard]

do you all think that it will be one iTMS for both the US and EU? or will Apple set up seperate stores for the two markets? I can see it going either way, as there are advantages and problems with both. But mostly likely, imo, Apple will have a seperate EU iTMS that isn't accessible to US comsumers.

[eSnow]

Because sound recordings are protected by copyright, Apple needs to obtain permission to distribute copies of those recordings from their respective owners. But that's not all they have to do. Each recording contains a musical composition - a song, in plain English. The record companies don't own the songs. When they manufacture CD's, they obtain licenses from the song owners (we call them "music publishers" in the business). On behalf of our music publisher clients, we've issued millions of these licenses to the record companies.

Mr. Baskin, it might not be so obvious to you as a president of the CMRRA, but if you take a step back and re-read your statement, you might discover where a lot of the problems in the relationship between artists, music industry, licensees and customers come from. This is a nice description of what could otherwise be called "a bloated, inefficient system that is ill-adapted to any use of music beyond pre-recorded CDs because it is so occupied with licensing details that its slowness damages more than it protects".

Now, I understand that every company, organization and civil service serves an important purpose - only there are some that are viewed a bit different depending if you have the inside view or the outside one. I am not going to be the judge who is right here - mainly since I am a EU citizen and don't know the intricacies of canadien licensing deals.
But I have witnessed the demise of communism over here - and there are striking similarities. They, too, had good reasons why this and that was impossible in short time because... Turns out, after the fossilized structures had been abolished, a lot of those factual arguments went out of the window without anyone complaining.

So, best of luck to you and your organization. I am sure, Canadian consumers will rejoice if they are able to legally download music some time in the future. Just remember that mp3 was invented only roughly 10 years ago - so no need to hurry, right?

Oh, and - it's nothing personal. Actually, I appreciate a music licensing exec who has the guts to answer in public. Kudos.

[dbasskin]

Is the world of music licensing complex? Yes. Is such complexity inevitable? Yes, but complexity isn't the same thing as inefficiency. We start from one unshakeable premise: songwriters and music publishers are entitled to fair compensation for the use of their music. The computer maker gets paid, the ISP gets paid, the music vendor gets paid, the record companies get paid. They don't work for free - why should songwriters and music publishers?

The purpose of music licensing as carried on by CMRRA is to make a very large number of songs available with a minimum of complexity and delay to those who wish to use them. Through CMRRA, an online music vendor can obtain licenses for over 90% of the songs it wants to use - and that number is climbing every day as more music publishers join up with us. It's too complex and expensive for all but a handful of music copyright owners to make licensing deals with online music vendors. It just makes sense to team up and concentrate their negotiating power to get the best deal out of the online companies. At the same time, collective licensing gives the online music vendor very close to one-stop shopping for the rights it needs.

We've built an efficient, low-cost system for music licensing that's satisfying the needs of music publishers and delivering licenses to companies doing business in Canada. No online music vendor is being held up from being in business by the lack of availability of licenses for the reproduction of the music we represent. if this seems like communism to you, what's your alternative? A system in which the most important people in the whole world of music - the songwriters - are compelled to work for free? That doesn't make any sense.

Much of the public's discontent - even anger - on the subject of online music comes from the contrast between the ease with which music may be taken without consent - rip a song from a CD or download it over an P2P system - and the apparent complexity of running an online music business.

Yes, it's more complex, and more expensive to organize and run an online music retail operation than it is to obtain music through unauthorized means. But show me a business that doesn't have its complexities. Ultimately, the marketplace will decide on the winners and losers amongst online music companies, and the rewards will go to those who took the risks and executed to the public's satisfaction. No taxpayers' dollars are involved here - just those of companies and investors putting their capital at risk in hope of making an above-nominal return. That's what business is all about.

At CMRRA, we're doing our bit to make this business a reality for Canadian consumers. Any company that wants to sell music online in Canada needs licenses to reproduce the songs it wants to use. No such company is farther than 48 hours away from signing a licensing deal with us and gaining access to almost all the songs it wants to use. As I've pointed out elsewhere, such companies have other tasks to undertake before they can be in business. They have to obtain the rights to use the recordings, and there's no one-stop agency for that. They have to negotiate separate deals with each record label whose recordings they want to use. That's not impossible, it's just time-consuming. They also have to put together their infrastructure, and design, code and operate their systems. Impossible? No. Complicated and time-consuming? Yes.

Likewise, any company that wants to operate in multiple territories has some big tasks ahead of it, all of which are capable of being done, but all of which take time. I share everyone's frustration with how long it's taking iTunes Music Store to come to Canada, but the matter is in their hands. Even if music publishers and songwriters fell on their swords tomorrow and agreed to the use of their songs without licenses or compensation, it would still take time and effort to achieve.

Once again, I urge those of you with an interest in this subject to make your views known to Apple Canada.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

[Maxicek]

People in europe are to hung up on P2P. No one will buy music.

First Post!

I for one will be using the iTMS. I don't find there is enough sources of greater than 192Kbps MP3s on the P2P networks. I find the bass on 128Kbps MP3 tracks to be a bit flabby when compared to AAC. Downloading from a website where I know the quality and availability is guaranteed will be refreshing and I don't have a problem with paying for it.

[neilg]

Hoo-bloody-ray!

[~Shard~]

First Post!

I for one will be using the iTMS. I don't find there is enough sources of greater than 192Kbps MP3s on the P2P networks. I find the bass on 128Kbps MP3 tracks to be a bit flabby when compared to AAC. Downloading from a website where I know the quality and availability is guaranteed will be refreshing and I don't have a problem with paying for it.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head with that one - these are some of the main reaosns why iTMS has been such a great success, and will continue to be. There will always be people out there who never want to pay for anything in their lives, think nothing is worth paying for and want everything for free, but what can you do about those type of ignorant, disrespectful people? iTMS is an excellent concept and one that will see continued success, especially with international iTMS approaching now in the near future - I can't wait! :cool:

[eSnow]

Is the world of music licensing complex? Yes. Is such complexity inevitable? Yes, but complexity isn't the same thing as inefficiency.

That I do not doubt - as I wrote in my first post, every organization sees its problems, goals and methods in a certain way. Of course it is complex! The structures - of which CMRRA are only one part - are so complex, because the issue at hand is complex, the matters are difficult and a lot of creative people have to be compensated for their effords.

All fine and dandy - and believe me, I do believe everyone should be compensated for their effords. But - to tell me that 10 years after the online revolution started rolling, close to 5 years after Napster and still no convenient canadian or european download stores, we are not talking about infefficiency is insulting my intelligence. As a customer, I don't care about excuses - you get paid to solve the complex issues, and fast.


Much of the public's discontent - even anger - on the subject of online music comes from the contrast between the ease with which music may be taken without consent - rip a song from a CD or download it over an P2P system - and the apparent complexity of running an online music business.

Yes, it's more complex, and more expensive to organize and run an online music retail operation than it is to obtain music through unauthorized means. But show me a business that doesn't have its complexities.

Somehow, a lot of businesses have done a much better job at handling the complexities their specific field brings than the music industry and the licensing authorities. This is where P2P gets a lot of its appeal from:

Over where I live, I have basically three ways to get music:
1) buy a CD. I own about 200 of them. Unfortunately, most new releases carry a "copy protection" sheme that makes it impossible to play them on a computer CD drive. Since I do not own a stand-alone drive, I cannot play this music (without circumventing the copy protection scheme, which would be illegal).

2) buy online. The number of download stores that offers a format playable on MacOS is and accepting my CC is - zero. You believe I download WMA to transcode it to mp3 (probably illegal, who knows?) and have a funny sounding file, you think again.

3) P2P. The quality is good, the ID-tags are usually lousy and it is illegal. But it is currently my only option for a lot of tunes.

So, what do you think I am doing, realistically? Don't listen to music?
I will buy at the iTMS (or a comparable offering), but you and the rest of the music biz is just losing one whole generation to P2P. Your only hope is to cry for daddy and have downloaders sent to jail with sentences like you would get for rape and manslaughter. I am not sure if this will work, but something deep inside tells me it will fall on its face. Because it is ridiculous.

The necessity to re-structure the whole revenue chain arose with the first consumer CD burner - ca 1994. And nothing has really happened to this day. Someone has to realize that at a certain point, more of the same will no longer cut it. A lot of industries had to learn this - from weaving mills to camera production. Others rose to the challenge, restructured and survived.

[~Shard~]

The necessity to re-structure the whole revenue chain arose with the first consumer CD burner - ca 1994. And nothing has really happened to this day. Someone has to realize that at a certain point, more of the same will no longer cut it. A lot of industries had to learn this - from weaving mills to camera production. Others rose to the challenge, restructured and survived.

And don't forget, to a lesser degree, the advent of the tape cassette recorders some 10 years before that. Grant it, there was no Internet at that time, so the accessibility of music was much less pronounced and in this digital age things are much different, but even back then in the 80's, it was the same thing, to a lesser degree. CD burning was no different than copy cassette tapes for your friends (just as VHS is to DVDs now). This issue (in one form or another) has been a round for a while - industries have to adapt and face the challenges presented to them, or else they will suffer greatly. And addressing the complexities and demands of changing society, technology and paradigms is NOT solved by simply slapping multi-thousand-dollar fines on 12-year old children and trying to lock up music-lovers in prison.

[blybug]

2) buy online. The number of download stores that offers a format playable on MacOS is and accepting my CC is - zero. You believe I download WMA to transcode it to mp3 (probably illegal, who knows?) and have a funny sounding file, you think again.

Take a look at allofmp3.com (http://www.allofmp3.com). This is a site based in Russia and according to their site Russian copyright law (http://stat.allofmp3.com/help/help.shtml?prm=legal) allows the music to be sold this way, without any digital rights management. A few remarkable things about this site:


The selection is at least as broad and complete as the iTMS. I've found plenty there that is not on the iTMS
Offers 30-sec high-quality previews and full length low-quality (24kbps) previews to stream or download
The pricing scheme is "pay by the MB" and the price can't be beat... $0.01 per MB, translates to 3-4c per song at 128kbps or $10.00 per GB of music
On-the-fly online encoding available with your choice of bitrate and format...MP3, AAC, WMA, OGG anywhere from 128 up to 384kbps. You choose the format and the bitrate when you buy the song, and it is encoded in a few seconds while you wait. This really makes sense when combined with the per MB pricing...if you want to have the higher quality, you pay a few cents more for the larger file!

I'm still not quite believing that this is "legal". I have no idea how copyright laws in Russia affect a downloader in the US or Europe, but this site is up and running, seems legit, and is leaps and bounds better than P2P. And more interesting is how they have implemented the real-time encoding in the format and bitrate chosen by the user. Proof positive that the technology exists and it can be done. I recommend to everyone to try this out to see how it works! Make a payment of $10 with PayPal or Visa and give it a test run!

Apple should be scared of this, because this capability in a music store is the real threat to the iPod. Right now, people are buying the iPod because it is the best player, and choosing the iTMS to buy their music because that's what "comes with it". Once a more mainstream site offers the variety of format and encoding options that allofmp3 (http://www.allofmp3.com) offers, people may choose the store first then go out and buy any old player.

Of course in the US there would be DRM and the price per song would be higher, but the ability to choose format and quality on-the-fly could pose a real threat the the iTunes<-->iPod symbiosis and dominance (unless Apple implements it first, of course). :(

[crenz]

You do realize that you can burn those files to an audio CD, right?

CD-Rs are lousy long-term storage mediums, so that won't help. Plus I have lost some information already, due to lossy compression. Plus I have a crappy CD-R, instead of a nice CD with booklet etc.

I'm not against digital downloads at all, I just don't like the way they are being handled right now.

[eSnow]

Take a look at allofmp3.com (http://www.allofmp3.com).

Wow, this is a helluva cool site. Why can they offer choice in the encoding format - or, better: why do other sites offer no choice? This makes the iTMS positively look dated.

This is the kind of consumer-oriented thinking I am talking about. And they are already selling instead of cutting red tape and studying licensing issues.

But enough of that, I have some music to buy - see you later :)

[crenz]

...but pricing decisions are entirely in the hands of the operators of online services, Apple included.

Thanks for the insight, David. Is there information available on what the licensing fees are that are charged to companies like the ones you mentioned, and how much of that goes to the artists? Would be quite interesting.

[crenz]

Wow, this is a helluva cool site. Why can they offer choice in the encoding format - or, better: why do other sites offer no choice?

Because they don't use DRM, and because with prices as low as that, I really doubt much of it goes to the artists.

[Sayhey]

I hope this happens soon and it means we in the US have more access to European music.

[wolfywolfbits]

eSnow, dbasskin am I missing something?

I don't understand the analogy to communism, or the general complaint from eSnow at all :confused:

I thought dbasskin explained quite clearly that the hold up isn't with them.. but rather with online music stores themselves (i.e. The online stores haven't tried to complete the licensing negotiations)

In fact from dbasskin's explanation of the licensing model it sounds pretty stream lined (compared to licensing issues with TV shows that I've had some dealings with); just begging for an online stores to take advantage of it :)

Perhaps the better analogy is to capitalism, since it seems that the online stores don't see the bucks to be made in opening a Canadian branch
:rolleyes:

[ottawaman]

Take a look at allofmp3.com (http://www.allofmp3.com). This is a site based in Russia and according to their site Russian copyright law (http://stat.allofmp3.com/help/help.shtml?prm=legal) allows the music to be sold this way, without any digital rights management. A few remarkable things about this site:


The selection is at least as broad and complete as the iTMS. I've found plenty there that is not on the iTMS
Offers 30-sec high-quality previews and full length low-quality (24kbps) previews to stream or download
The pricing scheme is "pay by the MB" and the price can't be beat... $0.01 per MB, translates to 3-4c per song at 128kbps or $10.00 per GB of music
On-the-fly online encoding available with your choice of bitrate and format...MP3, AAC, WMA, OGG anywhere from 128 up to 384kbps. You choose the format and the bitrate when you buy the song, and it is encoded in a few seconds while you wait. This really makes sense when combined with the per MB pricing...if you want to have the higher quality, you pay a few cents more for the larger file!

I'm still not quite believing that this is "legal". I have no idea how copyright laws in Russia affect a downloader in the US or Europe, but this site is up and running, seems legit, and is leaps and bounds better than P2P. And more interesting is how they have implemented the real-time encoding in the format and bitrate chosen by the user. Proof positive that the technology exists and it can be done. I recommend to everyone to try this out to see how it works! Make a payment of $10 with PayPal or Visa and give it a test run!

Apple should be scared of this, because this capability in a music store is the real threat to the iPod. Right now, people are buying the iPod because it is the best player, and choosing the iTMS to buy their music because that's what "comes with it". Once a more mainstream site offers the variety of format and encoding options that allofmp3 (http://www.allofmp3.com) offers, people may choose the store first then go out and buy any old player.

Of course in the US there would be DRM and the price per song would be higher, but the ability to choose format and quality on-the-fly could pose a real threat the the iTunes<-->iPod symbiosis and dominance (unless Apple implements it first, of course). :(

Nice site. All the Beatles songs are available for download for instance. Somehow I doubt Apple Corps in UK has given this Russian site permission to sell their entire catalogue for a few pennies...They can claim that they don't break any laws in Russia all they want, but they still need permission from the copyright holders. All ain't right, back in the USSR...

[thecombatwombat]

No online music vendor is being held up from being in business by the lack of availability of licenses for the reproduction of the music we represent. if this seems like communism to you, what's your alternative?


http://www.downhillbattle.org/itunes/

The heading "We can do so much better" pretty much says it as well as I could.

Like eSnow said, a big change in the record industry has seemed due for easily a decade. It's always been my opinion that a considerable factor in the stagnancy of the industry is that a system like this, so long overdue, would not promote piracy but level the playing field for independent musicians. Is there simply no truth to this?

[minstryoffunk]

G5 Powerbook? Pfft. I want a G10 and I want it now!

g10?

hell, if we're going to go that route, than I demand an H10, and I want it so small that I can get it implanted behind my ear. I could get usb in my left arm and FW800 in my right. goddam that would be cool.

I expect it next tuesday

and I want my health insurance to cover it, too

[rjwill246]

Is the world of music licensing complex? Yes. Is such complexity inevitable? Yes, but complexity isn't the same thing as inefficiency. I share everyone's frustration with how long it's taking iTunes Music Store to come to Canada, but the matter is in their hands. Even if music publishers and songwriters fell on their swords tomorrow and agreed to the use of their songs without licenses or compensation, it would still take time and effort to achieve.

Once again, I urge those of you with an interest in this subject to make your views known to Apple Canada.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada


It is amazing that you don't seem to see that the very thing you describe, the nightmare of, yes, quagmires and, you bet! inefficiencies, has NOTHING to do with Apple. I read and re-read what you have said and written and I can only stand in stunned amazement at your explanations. It's organizations like yours that are the heart and root of the problem. Why keep passing the buck back to Apple? They only offer to the public what is allowed them. It is the organization(s) that YOU represent that needs to turn over every stone and do everything at the highest speed to assist Apple to get the job done. You point out all the the things Apple has to do, over which it has no control, then lay the blame at their feet. Were that to be remotely true there wouldn't have been an iTMS in the US as it ought to be, by the far greater number of artists and companies to be dealt with, far harder to achieve than the CA counterpart.
Blaming Apple for not achieving what it so competently did in the US is well... hey, there's nothing one can say.

I do hope you guys actually do something useful about this. It would be unreal if OZ got its store up and running before Canada did!

[~Shard~]

I do hope you guys actually do something useful about this. It would be unreal if OZ got its store up and running before Canada did!

I second that one! Being a Canadian, I can't wait for iTMS to be availbale here - I would be all over it! Right now the only options available for me to obtain music are essentially by buying the CD or downloading it illegally for free. Buying the CD is silly and inefficient, especially if I only want a few tracks, or want to "try out the CD" to determine if I like it or not. Plus, CDs are getting antiquated in my mind - I don't want those bulky cases and discs cluttering up my home - if I buy CDs now they just get ripped into iTunes anyway, put on my iPod and I never touch the CD again. So buying CDs isn't really a sensible, viable option, so guess what I'm left with? Yah, the downloading option, which I don't like since it's illegal. But guess what? If people had access to an iTMS, a decent percentage of them would stop using P2P systems - they only use it because it is essentially their only option.

Please get iTMS Canada (as well as other countries of course!) rolling soon, as it will actually reduce P2P piracy - and isn't that what you want?!? :cool:

[billyboy]

It is amazing that you don't seem to see that the very thing you describe, the nightmare of, yes, quagmires and, you bet! inefficiencies, has NOTHING to do with Apple. I read and re-read what you have said and written and I can only stand in stunned amazement at your explanations. It's organizations like yours that are the heart and root of the problem. Why keep passing the buck back to Apple? They only offer to the public what is allowed them. It is the organization(s) that YOU represent that needs to turn over every stone and do everything at the highest speed to assist Apple to get the job done. You point out all the the things Apple has to do, over which it has no control, then lay the blame at their feet. Were that to be remotely true there wouldn't have been an iTMS in the US as it ought to be, by the far greater number of artists and companies to be dealt with, far harder to achieve than the CA counterpart.
Blaming Apple for not achieving what it so competently did in the US is well... hey, there's nothing one can say.

I do hope you guys actually do something useful about this. It would be unreal if OZ got its store up and running before Canada did!

Maybe the industry with all its divisions and sub divivsions of self interest doesnt really want to help Apple! Just because a few million consumers think it is great, doesnt mean the industry likes the way Apple is storming in changing things. iTMS is a one year experiment afterall and perhaps having been shown the light, there are forces at work to hijack the model and screw ever more revenue out of download music sales.

[eSnow]

eSnow, dbasskin am I missing something?

I don't understand the analogy to communism, or the general complaint from eSnow at all :confused:

I was not talking about the "state owns all" aspect of communism, but that communist regimes were so afraid of the possibility that flexibility might bring about injustice that they tried to have rules and regulations for each and everything. Eventually, they slowed down progress so much that most were poorer than in competing systems.

His organization works much the same way - trying to make sure everyone gets his fair share (which is a good thing), they are missing the point that a lot of revenue is lost because people have no possibility to spend their money.

I simply do not buy the idea that online shops refuse to sign sensible agreements. Apple Europe finally woke up from the idea to negociate deals in all memberstates before launch (I was quite vokal here that it was a dumb idea) and go for the three biggest countries first, which implies they can act faster than the licensing authorities in all other EU-countries.

[w0nt0n]

Great news if it does finally land in June.

If there are difference pricing structures for Europe compared to the US then I'm guessing this will be down to the music industry and not Apple.

Europeans already pay more money that our US counterparts for music cds, even if the origin of the music published is from Europe.

[eSnow]

Great news if it does finally land in June.

If there are difference pricing structures for Europe compared to the US then I'm guessing this will be down to the music industry and not Apple.


I dunno.. We pay a lot more for Apple gear, even if you factor in the higher taxes over here. So, I would not put it past Apple so show some greed when selling music too.

[J-Squire]

The interesting thing is that out side of the US some of the people who have iPods dont realise you can PLAY music on them ( they use them as a portable storage device). Most people dont realise that you can use iTunes to get music from the iTMS, and the people who do have music on their iPods (like the rest of us) have ripped it from their CD collection.

What!!?? I don't think so. How many people do you know who buy an iPod and don't even know it can play music! That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I live outside the US, and have worked in an Apple Store, and I have never heard of anyone who has actually bought an iPod and not known it can play music. How would that happen? What kind of a sales person would recommend an iPod to someone who just wanted a portable hard drive? They're about twice the price! If they did recommend it, they would have to make it clear that it is also an awesome mp3 player in order to justify the expense.

[jholzner]

Nice site. All the Beatles songs are available for download for instance. Somehow I doubt Apple Corps in UK has given this Russian site permission to sell their entire catalogue for a few pennies...They can claim that they don't break any laws in Russia all they want, but they still need permission from the copyright holders. All ain't right, back in the USSR...

I just looked over the site really quickly but wow! This beats the iTMS handsdown...well iTMS has a better interface and is quicker but also has DRM. I may switch stores...I can't believe I just said that :)

[dbasskin]

It is amazing that you don't seem to see that the very thing you describe, the nightmare of, yes, quagmires and, you bet! inefficiencies, has NOTHING to do with Apple. I read and re-read what you have said and written and I can only stand in stunned amazement at your explanations. It's organizations like yours that are the heart and root of the problem. Why keep passing the buck back to Apple? They only offer to the public what is allowed them. It is the organization(s) that YOU represent that needs to turn over every stone and do everything at the highest speed to assist Apple to get the job done.

Either I'm not making myself clear or you're being deliberately obtuse.

1. Like it or not, the music industry is divided into two principal groups of rights-holders: song owners (music publishers) and recording owners (record companies).

2. We have made an immense number of songs available through a single agreement that comes as close to one-stop shopping as possible. Without this agreement, an online music vendor would be compelled to chase down thousands of individual music publishers. We have entered into this agreement with four online companies to date and look forward to dong the same with Apple.

3. The record companies have no central licensing body. An online service must enter into deals with each label individually. It would certainly be easier for an online service to deal with a central licensing body, but the record companies haven't seen fit to create one.

4. CMRRA has no control whatsoever over the behaviour of the record companies.

5. The range and complexity of licensing issues faced by an online service pales beside those faced by other entities, such as television networks and film producers. The range of rights issues that can be encountered in those industries makes music look like child's play. I speak from experience as an entertainment lawyer who has worked in both those areas.

So what's your real point, rjwill? That you think the complexity of music licensing is a bad thing? What's your alternative - that we should agree to allow our songs to be used for free? That we should accept a lump sum with no accounting as to which songs get downloaded?

It may not have occurred to you that a service like IMS has half a million songs, each of which has different ownership and different authorship. Someone has to figure out how to distribute the royalties commensurate with usage. Under our agreement, the online service doesn't have to take on that job - they just give us usage data and we take care of the distribution. It's straightforward and, compared to what it would be in the absence of our involvement, relatively simple.

Or would a random distribution of randomly chosen sums of money be alright with you?

Every aspect of rights administration is more complex than P2P systems in which everything is given away and nobody gets paid for his or her work. That's simply a fact of life. But I'm inviting you to review this message, and my previous ones, and point out which aspect of our operations represent an impediment to the launch of IMS or any other online music service in Canada. Be precise, please.

Finally, has it not occurred to you that Apple may have its own reasons for not having opened up in Canada yet? Reasons that have nothing to do with the availability of the right to reproduce songs? Granted, Apple's strict no-comment policy makes it difficult to answer this question, but if you think about it, you'll begin to see that the issue of choosing which territory to expand to first just may involve issues other than those associated with securing rights.

At least you've stopped calling me a "dingbat", which is progress.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

[J-Squire]

It is amazing that you don't seem to see that the very thing you describe, the nightmare of, yes, quagmires and, you bet! inefficiencies, has NOTHING to do with Apple. I read and re-read what you have said and written and I can only stand in stunned amazement at your explanations. It's organizations like yours that are the heart and root of the problem. Why keep passing the buck back to Apple? They only offer to the public what is allowed them. It is the organization(s) that YOU represent that needs to turn over every stone and do everything at the highest speed to assist Apple to get the job done. You point out all the the things Apple has to do, over which it has no control, then lay the blame at their feet. Were that to be remotely true there wouldn't have been an iTMS in the US as it ought to be, by the far greater number of artists and companies to be dealt with, far harder to achieve than the CA counterpart.
Blaming Apple for not achieving what it so competently did in the US is well... hey, there's nothing one can say.

I do hope you guys actually do something useful about this. It would be unreal if OZ got its store up and running before Canada did!

Geez some people are way too one-eyed. There is obviously a bit of give and take here. I think David has explained his position very well. It seems like a complicated legal process, but the system they currently have in place seems quite efficient. The fact that other online stores are up and running because of this system suggests to me that perhaps part of the blame is with Apple.

BTW, have you EVER heard Apple mention iTunes Canada? No. Their focus is on EUROPE. They may have looked into Canada and seen how easy companies like David's have made it for them to set up the store and figured that they'd throw their resources instead at the tougher, but economically more lucrative market of the EU, and pull Canada together when iTunes takes off internationally.

[elgruga]

Firstly, I am SICK of the people who sanctimoniousy yap on about 'illegal' downloads.
Points to understand:

The jury is STILL out on downloads/file sharing - just because a bunch of greedy music biz execs have sued a few pathetic kids in the states, dont think its over.

For those of you who are complaining about the Apple Canada iTunes store - its LEGAL to file share in Canada.
That decision was handed down only two weeks ago (approx.)

When I buy a CD, I have the right to share it with whoever I like.

Why are so many of you so limp about this? Sharing isnt harming the music business - sales of CD's are UP! Check recent sales figures.

The latest news is that the music business pirates (the execs of the big five) want to put downloaded files up in price to as much as $2.00 per song!

Read this article: http://www.washingtonsquarenews.com/opinion/columnists/7370.html

Wake up! And stop talking about file sharing like its a bloody capital offense - you want crime? Look at what the USA is doing in Iraq. Now thats crime.

"But I want a G5 powerbook" I hear you whine. No., you need a bloody education on whats happening in the real world - which, with all due respect, this aint.

I enjoy Macrumors from time to time, but if you guys are going to start discussing REAL issues - is this the place?
Well, maybe it is......

[Trimix]

Geez some people are way too one-eyed. There is obviously a bit of give and take here. I think David has explained his position very well. It seems like a complicated legal process, but the system they currently have in place seems quite efficient. The fact that other online stores are up and running because of this system suggests to me that perhaps part of the blame is with Apple.

BTW, have you EVER heard Apple mention iTunes Canada? No. Their focus is on EUROPE. They may have looked into Canada and seen how easy companies like David's have made it for them to set up the store and figured that they'd throw their resources instead at the tougher, but economically more lucrative market of the EU, and pull Canada together when iTunes takes off internationally.

I am with you all the way - I am very happy that Mr Basskin has given us a glimpse of what is going on. I am beginning to grasp the complexity of the task and I am grateful to him for sharing this with us all. Regarding the view Europe over Canada, well there are simply more consumers here, even if they can only open in one country alone. As such their approach going country by country as someone else mentioned in this forum makes all the sense in the world. It also gives them more publicity to come to Europe than to stay in North America, even if I feel sorry for the Canadians. You will surely get yours - My location is Switzerland thus my situation is even worse :D

[winmacguy]

What!!?? I don't think so. How many people do you know who buy an iPod and don't even know it can play music! That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I live outside the US, and have worked in an Apple Store, and I have never heard of anyone who has actually bought an iPod and not known it can play music. How would that happen? What kind of a sales person would recommend an iPod to someone who just wanted a portable hard drive? They're about twice the price! If they did recommend it, they would have to make it clear that it is also an awesome mp3 player in order to justify the expense.
The two people in question I was refering to were women who are not always concerned with techical features or whether a device plays music. Their respective husbands had purchased the iPods for them for gaphic design class. It is mostly guys who tend to be up with the play on portable music devices and what type of music they play rather than women.

[duklaprague]

First Post!

I for one will be using the iTMS. I don't find there is enough sources of greater than 192Kbps MP3s on the P2P networks. I find the bass on 128Kbps MP3 tracks to be a bit flabby when compared to AAC. Downloading from a website where I know the quality and availability is guaranteed will be refreshing and I don't have a problem with paying for it.

i'm with you. i've downloaded my share, whilst still buying cds i really like as well. the one thing the record companies seem to have completely wrong is this idea that downloads equate to lost sales. thats just BS frankly - I've downloaded stuff I probably wouldn't have bought - in some cases I have then gone on to buy it, in others not. so if anything, P2P of course is generating sales.

the other thing is that they completely ignore the fact that people, particularly the 16-35 age group are spending a lot more money on other things - dvds, games consoles, mobile phones etc.

anyway - back to ITMS - i'll gladly pay, if its reasonably priced - P2P is all very well, but its so hit and miss - whereas if I can click on a song, have it download in 30 seconds (our ISP has just given customers a free, permanent speed bump of 50%, whicj is nice), guaranteed to be of high quality, without stopping half way through, or being riddled with cracks or beeps, then I'll be delighted.

what they really could do with doing is providing artwork to download / print along with albums. actually - can you do this alreadt in ITMS? (i know you can always get it elsewhere, but it would be handy if it was right there, and the right size for the cd case). possibly even worth it if it was 99p / cents whatever, but that might just be me.

anyway, one delighted recent switcher to mac - 15" PB, getting the ipod in a few weeks, digi camera, wireless broadband and photo printing. a european ITMS would be the icing on my digital cake!

Iain

[duklaprague]

What!!?? I don't think so. How many people do you know who buy an iPod and don't even know it can play music! That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

it does sound pretty stupid. like, why are there headphones with my *portable storage device*.....

Iain

[airbag]

To defend Mr Basskin: If someone in the music biz is to be blamed for the slow evolution of online-music it is not organisations like CMRRA, but rather the record companies.

While rolling in money during most of the late 80's and early 90's they failed to react to the obvious changes in how people use computers and the Internet. When sales-figures finally declined too much to be ignored – in most part due to increasing competition from other products such as DVDs, games-consoles etc – they figured that a counter-attack was their best defence. This strategy, however, didn't get them anywhere, and only served to alienate their most loyal customers. At the same time, a wide-spread disgust for all things to do with computers and Internet spread within the music biz community.

Then Steve Jobs came along and demonstrated how it should have been done in the first place. Now the companies are finally working hard to manage the changes needed to get up-to-date – a process that should have begun 10 years ago!

All in all, I don't blame them for needing some time, but I DO blame them for being so late!

[crees!]

Wake up! And stop talking about file sharing like its a bloody capital offense - you want crime? Look at what the USA is doing in Iraq. Now thats crime.

I enjoy Macrumors from time to time, but if you guys are going to start discussing REAL issues - is this the place?
Well, maybe it is......

Iraq a crime? Before the USA and OTHERS stepped in, yes. Atleast your el captain doesn't gas your neighborhood and put you all in mass graves.

OTS, I don't see anything wrong with filesharing either but I don't partake in it anymore.

[captain kirk]

Iraq a crime? Before the USA and OTHERS stepped in, yes. Atleast your el captain doesn't gas your neighborhood and put you all in mass graves.

OTS, I don't see anything wrong with filesharing either but I don't partake in it anymore.

May I suggest that this is not the time or place to be discussing political matters. Many people who frequent these boards have strong opinions, both positive and negative about US involvement in iraq, however most of us choose to discuss the matter at hand, namely the potential good news that itms is coming to europe soon. I for one would be very pleased to see it online in europe although I feel is will be something of a niche market. With pricing likely to be around 99pence per song ( similar to cd costs) my guess is many people will only use it for the odd song they can't get on cd or an album which maybe only has a couple of decent tracks on it.

[skunk]

May I suggest that this is not the time or place to be discussing political matters. Many people who frequent these boards have strong opinions, both positive and negative about US involvement in iraq, however most of us choose to discuss the matter at hand, namely the potential good news that itms is coming to europe soon.
On the other hand, if you DO want to discuss this much more important issue, come over to the Political and War Discussions Forum... :)

[EUman22]

Hi,

When Itunes Europe starts this year anybody got an idear how many euroes it will cost to download a song ?

/Fred

[Machead III]

probably €1.50, if we are lucky :P

Btw, anyone defending the war on Iraq in the convo above, stop kidding yourself :rolleyes: