Siege of Falluja

[skunk]

From the BBC:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3653223.stm
.....

The Iraqi death toll from the siege has been strongly contested. Local doctors have been widely quoted as saying at least 600 people died.

Mr Obaidi believes the total to be at least 750, not including those buried in gardens or other unofficial grave sites.

The Iraqi Health Minister, Khodair Abbas, said on Thursday that 271 people died and local doctors had been pressured to give inflated figures.

The proportion of these who were civilians is impossible to verify.

Reports from the city have consistently said that many civilians in US-controlled parts of the city were too afraid of US snipers to leave their homes during the siege.

Dr Obaidi and Ms Wilding described cases of women, children and old men who appeared to have been shot by US soldiers.

Dr Obaidi said he had seen the bodies of two men, one aged about 70, the other about 50, both shot in the forehead, in an area controlled by the US.

They had been lying at the front gate of their home for two days, he said, because the family did not dare step outside to retrieve the bodies.

Is he sure they were shot by US troops?

"You are joking?" he said. "There are people dead in an area just controlled by America snipers. Nobody, either civilian or resistance, could enter the area. Who could kill them? We know American bullets. We are not a stupid people."

Ms Wilding said an injured mother and two children had told her they were hit by US gunmen as they tried to leave their house.

She also said she met an old woman, shot in the abdomen, who was still clutching a white flag.

"Her son said she had been shot by US soldiers," Ms Wilding said.

Dr Obaidi also said he had seen the body parts of a family in a bombed-out house: "There were seven women and five children. I saw the head of a child away from the body. Only one girl, aged four, had survived," he said.

US officials say their operations have been "extraordinarily precise".

Gen. Sanchez said civilian casualties were "absolutely regrettable", but were a fact on a "battlefield of this nature in an urban environment".

Gen. Kimmit, also blamed militants who "hunker down inside mosques and hospitals and schools, and use the women and children as shields" for the civilian suffering.


Hospital access:
The US has also faced criticism for blocking access to the city's main hospital by, according to most reports, occupying the river bridge which linked it to the rest of the city.

"If this hospital was working it would have saved a lot of lives," Medecins Sans Frontieres' Emergency Coordinator for Iraq Ibrahim Younis said.

Doctors set up makeshift clinics in the early days of the siege.

Ms Wilding said doctors were storing blood in a drinks fridge at a GP's surgery where they were treating the injured, and warming the bags under the tap in an unhygienic toilet.

Dr Obaidi said hundreds of patients were brought in, but his team had only 10 beds.
Not a pretty picture, I think you'll agree.

[numediaman]

Not a pretty picture, I think you'll agree.

Here's your crimes against humanity. But the real show may still occur in Najaf. The Americans know they can't go in. But if the Iraqis can provoke them, it might lead to an incursion -- and then all hell breaks loose.

You want a real ugly picture: imagine the following scenario. The Americans attack in Fallujah. Then a minor incident occurs in Najaf on the day the Israelis finally do what they have said they might: kill Arafat.

[skunk]

Here's your crimes against humanity. But the real show may still occur in Najaf. The Americans know they can't go in. But if the Iraqis can provoke them, it might lead to an incursion -- and then all hell breaks loose.

You want a real ugly picture: imagine the following scenario. The Americans attack in Fallujah. Then a minor incident occurs in Najaf on the day the Israelis finally do what they have said they might: kill Arafat.
And I expect Bush will be on holiday again with a Do Not Disturb sign hanging on his doorknob. :(

[takao]

And I expect Bush will be on holiday again with a Do Not Disturb sign hanging on his doorknob. :(


;) but i have to admit i would do the same

[skunk]

;) but i have to admit i would do the same
But you're not the President of the USA. :rolleyes:

[takao]

But you're not the President of the USA. :rolleyes:

and i am happy because of that..... i guess it is pretty streßfull dodging all those unwanted questions all the time

BTW: sunday there is the presidental election here in austria.... and both candidates are completly boring

[toontra]

and both candidates are completly boring

I could do with a "boring" statesman right now. I've had it up to here with "personality" politicians, especially Blair & Bush, banging on about their personal passionate beliefs in that quasi messianic way.

[SlyHunter]

Fallujah I heard on tv if we go in to fallujah then clerics say that other towns will erupt just like Fallujah. Ok so what we are suppose to shrug our shoulders and leave? Sorry we can't do that.

Najeh with that priest or whatever he is claiming if we go in after him we will have to suffer increased terrorism. Ok you mean if we shrug our shoulders and leave we won't have to worry about terrorist? Or how about someone wanting to turn Iraq into a theocracy? Sorry we can't do that either.

We are stuck at both places, we have no choice but to go in. There are no other viable alternatives.

[SlyHunter]

From the BBC:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3653223.stm
.....


US officials say their operations have been "extraordinarily precise".

Gen. Sanchez said civilian casualties were "absolutely regrettable", but were a fact on a "battlefield of this nature in an urban environment".

Gen. Kimmit, also blamed militants who "hunker down inside mosques and hospitals and schools, and use the women and children as shields" for the civilian suffering.

Not a pretty picture, I think you'll agree.
Here's your crimes against humanity.


But the real show may still occur in Najaf. The Americans know they can't go in. But if the Iraqis can provoke them, it might lead to an incursion -- and then all hell breaks loose.

You want a real ugly picture: imagine the following scenario. The Americans attack in Fallujah. Then a minor incident occurs in Najaf on the day the Israelis finally do what they have said they might: kill Arafat.
Americans have to go in, we can't walk away and allow him to turn the country into a theocracy. If we did that theocracy would be our fault. But yeah real ugly picture. And truthfully I wouldn't be surprised if that was what Sharon was waiting for in Israel. News be so busy talking about Iraq that Arafat would just be a blurb.

[Ugg]

and i am happy because of that..... i guess it is pretty streßfull dodging all those unwanted questions all the time

BTW: sunday there is the presidental election here in austria.... and both candidates are completly boring

Perhaps you'll have the first female Austrian President? I agree, boring and competent is much better than the two boobies the UK and the US have.

[zimv20]

another attack is being considered (link) (http://nytimes.com/2004/04/25/international/25IRAQ.html?hp)


April 25, 2004

Bush's Decision on Possible Attack on Falluja Seems Near
By DAVID E. SANGER
and THOM SHANKER

WASHINGTON, April 24 — Facing one of the grimmest choices of the Iraq war, President Bush and his senior national security and military advisers are expected to decide this weekend whether to order an invasion of Falluja, even if a battle there runs the risk of uprisings in the city and perhaps elsewhere around Iraq.

After declaring on Friday evening in Florida that "America will never be run out of Iraq by a bunch of thugs and killers," Mr. Bush flew to Camp David for the weekend, where administration officials said he planned consultations in a videoconference with the military commanders who are keeping the city under siege.

(more)

i'm getting the impression that bush is micro-managing some of the military tactics here

[skunk]

another attack is being considered
i'm getting the impression that bush is micro-managing some of the military tactics here
It's like watching a train crash :(
No topical reference intended.

[Thanatoast]

Fallujah I heard on tv if we go in to fallujah then clerics say that other towns will erupt just like Fallujah. Ok so what we are suppose to shrug our shoulders and leave? Sorry we can't do that.
I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic here. If we go into Fallujah, we cause more civilian deaths, more American deaths, and increase terrorist activities throughout the country. Why can't we leave Fallujah alone?

Najeh with that priest or whatever he is claiming if we go in after him we will have to suffer increased terrorism. Ok you mean if we shrug our shoulders and leave we won't have to worry about terrorist? Or how about someone wanting to turn Iraq into a theocracy? Sorry we can't do that either.
No, if we shrug our shoulders and leave we'll have to worry about _less_ terrorism. If we're being told that certain actions would *guarantee* more chaos, why must we pursue those actions? And as for Iraq turning into a theocracy, I'm kinda worried about the US at the moment. Bush's crazy reborn-uber-christian worldview freaks me out a lot more than the idea of an arab nation being run by an arab form of government.

We are stuck at both places, we have no choice but to go in. There are no other viable alternatives.
We most certainly do have another choice. It's the choice of admitting we're full of **** in regards to wanting an actual democracy in Iraq instead of a US puppet government. Let the people of Iraq make their own decisions. We certainly demand no less for ourselves.

[numediaman]

And as for Iraq turning into a theocracy, I'm kinda worried about the US at the moment. Bush's crazy reborn-uber-christian worldview freaks me out a lot more than the idea of an arab nation being run by an arab form of government.

But Thanatoast, thanks to Pat Robertson, the American theocracy will include life saving pancakes!!

Pat's Age-Defying Protein Pancake

Guilt-free pancakes? Yes! Try Pat's Age-Defying Protein Pancakes for a breakfast that fights disease, protects your heart and tastes great!

America loves pancakes! Pancake houses across the country are packed. But what are those syrup drenched, hot cakes doing to our bodies? Putting us on a fast track to weight gain, high cholesterol and adult onset diabetes.

But now there is hope for everyone who loves this early morning treat. Pat's very own Age-Defying Protein Pancakes! These delicious pancakes give you energy, help your heart and provide a substantial boost of muscle-building protein.

Pat's Age-Defying Protein Pancakes can:
• Combat the build-up of plaque in your blood vessels and arteries
• Provide complex carbohydrates to keep your system running at its best
• Provide an excellent source of energy and essential fatty acids, important for good heart health
• Help protect against breast, uterine and prostate cancer

And Pat shares his cooking tips along the way to help make your pancakes light and fluffy.

http://www.cbn.com/communitypublic/pancakes.asp

I wonder if God provided the recipe at the same he told Pat that Bush would win in November in a landslide?

[zimv20]

link (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040423/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_fallujah_sunni_040423174306)


BAGHDAD (AFP) - A Sunni Muslim leader warned the US-led coalition it would face an uprising throughout Iraq (news - web sites) if its forces attack the flashpoint city of Fallujah, besieged by US marines since April 5.

"I have an urgent message for US forces. You have overstepped the red line. Make sure you do not strike Fallujah again," Sheikh Ahmed Abdel Ghafur Samarrai said during Friday prayers at a Baghdad mosque.

"We will not allow the shedding of Iraqi blood. If you strike again, the whole of Iraq, from north to south, from east to west, will become Fallujah," Samarrai said.

(more)

[mactastic]

Bring 'em on! We can't let a bunch of thugs and assasins chase us out of Iraq! Nothing bad will come from an intense battle in the middle of a crowded city. [/sarcasm]

The next week is likely to be very bloody for both Iraqis and Americans. :(

[numediaman]

Bring 'em on! We can't let a bunch of thugs and assasins chase us out of Iraq! Nothing bad will come from an intense battle in the middle of a crowded city. [/sarcasm]

The next week is likely to be very bloody for both Iraqis and Americans. :(

You're probably right -- but I can't help but feel that, when it comes to Fallujah, they should wait them out. Holding Fallujah really means nothing to the Americans. In the end, its an Iraqi problem.

Najaf may be the same. Make the Iraqis solve this problem. Its their country, and they will be handed "sovereignty" in ten weeks. I think the Americans can create a siege and wait them out. Keep the "bad guys" bottled up and go after those out in Baghdad and the countryside.

This administration still believes that they will have a completely docile Iraq when they give up control. The only way Iraq will be docile is if everyone is dead.

[skunk]

You're probably right -- but I can't help but feel that, when it comes to Fallujah, they should wait them out. Holding Fallujah really means nothing to the Americans. In the end, its an Iraqi problem.

Najaf may be the same. Make the Iraqis solve this problem. Its their country, and they will be handed "sovereignty" in ten weeks. I think the Americans can create a siege and wait them out. Keep the "bad guys" bottled up and go after those out in Baghdad and the countryside.

This administration still believes that they will have a completely docile Iraq when they give up control. The only way Iraq will be docile is if everyone is dead.
But you CAN'T be advocating laying siege to a city for ten weeks in this day and age.

[numediaman]

But you CAN'T be advocating laying siege to a city for ten weeks in this day and age.

No. I was attempting (probably lamely) to find a middle ground that the government might use.

I think people on this board know how anti-Iraq war I am, so when trying to find a way out for administration, I think a siege is better than house to house fighting -- but only barely.

If I were in charge, the US would go to the UN on Monday, apologize, and then declare our intention to leave Iraq on June 30.

[skunk]

No. I was attempting (probably lamely) to find a middle ground that the government might use.

I think people on this board know how anti-Iraq war I am, so when trying to find a way out for administration, I think a siege is better than house to house fighting -- but only barely.

If I were in charge, the US would go to the UN on Monday, apologize, and then declare our intention to leave Iraq on June 30.
That sounds a much better idea. You could even put your troops under UN command. (Ducks)

PS It's Monday. :D

[mactastic]

Looks like the cease-fire is over and we are assulting the city....

[zimv20]

on tv, a teaser for their 9pm news broadcast: a real tough-guy VO (voiceover) "the time for talk has ended" while showing night-vision footage of marines attacking fallujah.

i'm so glad mainstream media panders to that ass-kicking set which i'd thought people would grow out of after high school. color me disappointed.

[numediaman]

on tv, a teaser for their 9pm news broadcast: a real tough-guy VO (voiceover) "the time for talk has ended" while showing night-vision footage of marines attacking fallujah.

i'm so glad mainstream media panders to that ass-kicking set which i'd thought people would grow out of after high school. color me disappointed.

You should watch ITV news instead. You can find it on Newsworld International. They have some very nice looking British woman (believe me, I was going to use different words, but decided not to). Their news isn't bad, but they have this annoying habit of walking around in front of these giant monitors, then sitting, then walking around a bit. I keep screaming at the TV "decide already. Either sit your arse down or stand up -- just make up your mind."

[zimv20]

You should watch ITV news instead.
i'd be all over it if i had the cable.

[numediaman]

i'd be all over it if i had the cable.

Well, I have Directv so I get the BBC, FranceTV, the local SF channels so I can see the Giants lose again, Bravo (back when they only broadcast foreign films), as well as Air America TV.

OK, so I don't get some of those channels. Ok, Ok, I don't get any of those channels. But I do get every Murdoch owned propaganda machine channel. I think there are thirty of them at last count.

[numediaman]

Siege Defined on Stones Set in Haste in the Dirt
By CHRISTINE HAUSER

FALLUJA, Iraq, April 27 — The place where the new dead lie in this city west of Baghdad was once a soccer stadium called the Falluja Sports Club.

But now, after more than three weeks of fighting between American marines and insurgents, it is known as the Falluja Martyrs Cemetery.

In handwritten Arabic lettering on the stone markers are the names of two children, Amal and Mustafa Alawi, killed in Jolan, a poor neighborhood here where much of the fighting has taken place.

"There are 250 people buried here from American strikes on houses," said a gravedigger who gave only his first name, Nasser. "We have stacked up the bodies one on top of the other."

The headstones in this makeshift cemetery were silent witnesses to part of the Iraqi side of the battlefield story.

The gravediggers said the cemetery was full of women and children. But there were signs of fallen fighters — some headstones had the Arabic word for "hero" inscribed alongside the names. There were also the marks of civilian victims — some read "child."

The Iraqi Health Ministry has tried to determine the number of Iraqis killed in the fighting. The ministry said 271 people had been killed since the offensive began on April 5. Doctors quoted by news agencies cited twice that number.

This cemetery contains other unanswered questions. One headstone read simply "unknown" but recorded where the person had been killed — Hay Askari, another district in this city of about 300,000 people where fighting has taken place since the siege started early this month.

On Tuesday afternoon, there were the sounds of continuing battle, despite a declared truce. The rattle of machine-gun fire and explosions that sounded like tank rounds could be heard in the distance.

"Hear that?" said one man, who with other residents and a few fighters in the cemetery, clutching machine guns, their faces shrouded with scarves, stopped to listen.

Judging by the littered ground here, bodies had been brought in from hospitals or by ambulance medics. Surgical gloves and masks had been tossed amid the graves. Boxes of incense had been spent and discarded, and palm fronds were stuck into the dirt of grave mounds.

More room was being made for graves in the center of the stadium, where the turf had been tilled with trenches deep enough to stand in.

"There are still a lot of bodies out there," said Hamza, another gravedigger. "But we can't get them because of the fighting."

Some of the bodies were pulled out from under the rubble of bombed homes, said Iraqis at the cemetery. One grave was simply marked "hand." Another "fingers." One man, Abu Abdullah, was described as "mutilated by the Americans."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/28/international/middleeast/28FALL.html?pagewanted=print&position=

[skunk]

I think I'm going to be sick....

[numediaman]

Chirac demands full Iraq handover

Chirac led opposition to the war in Iraq

President Jacques Chirac has said any compromise in handing over sovereignty in Iraq would be "disastrous".

The French leader called for a swift and unambiguous return of power, and said that the US must not maintain control behind the scenes.

"It is urgent today to return sovereignty to the Iraqis," he said.

Earlier this week US Secretary of State Colin Powell said Iraq would have to defer to the coalition on some issues, even after the handover on 30 June.

Chirac takes EU debate to the people

But Mr Chirac said: "There is no possible solution that would lead to the reconstruction of Iraq without a genuine transfer of sovereignty under the effective control of the United Nations."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3670529.stm

Below, Chirac sings the greatest hits of Edith Piaf:

[numediaman]

Any bets that tomorrow we will see stories in the Arab press that states something like "Iraqis win battle, U.S. withdraws from Fallujah"?

[SlyHunter]

Any bets that tomorrow we will see stories in the Arab press that states something like "Iraqis win battle, U.S. withdraws from Fallujah"?
Another reason why we can't leave.

[skunk]

Another reason why we can't leave.
Why? Because it would be an admission of appalling misjudgment?

[SlyHunter]

Why? Because it would be an admission of appalling misjudgment?
No an admission of defeat. We don't leave till we win.

[skunk]

No an admission of defeat. We don't leave till we win.
And how do you define victory?

[SlyHunter]

And how do you define victory?
When they stop shooting at us and police can patrol the street without fear of having their police station destroyed. When people are more concern with showing up to work on time and doing their jobs making money for their families. Then we will have won and so will have they.

[pseudobrit]

And how do you define victory?

No one left to fight.

[numediaman]

Gee, what a surprise. The former general under Saddam is no longer listening to the Americans. So now the Americans are trying to find another general to go into Falluja.

Iraqi general refuses to give up Falluja fighters

Rory McCarthy in Falluja
Monday May 3, 2004
The Guardian

The Iraqi general chosen to run a new security force in Falluja yesterday distanced himself from the US military by refusing American demands to give up foreign fighters supposedly hiding in the city.

As a flood of civilians returned home after four weeks of a ferocious assault on the city by American marines, Major General Jasim Mohammed Saleh said the US had provoked a backlash from ordinary Iraqis.

"The reasons for the resistance go back to the American provocations, the raids and abolishing the army, which made Iraqis join the resistance," he said.

American commanders say 200 foreign fighters are holed up in Falluja and have demanded that the city hands them over. But Gen Saleh, an ex-Republican Guard officer who has been mooted to run a 1,000-strong local security force, has refused. "There are no foreign fighters in Falluja and the local tribal leaders have told me the same," he said.

His remarks have put him at odds with the US-led coalition.

Yesterday America's most senior military officer, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, General Richard Myers, added to the confusion about Gen Saleh's role by denying that he had been put in charge of Falluja.

"There's another general they're looking at," Gen Myers told ABC's This Week. "My guess is, it will not be General Saleh. It will not - he will not be their leader ... He may have a role to play, but that vetting has yet to take place."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4915255-103550,00.html

[zimv20]

Gee, what a surprise. The former general under Saddam is no longer listening to the Americans. So now the Americans are trying to find another general to go into Falluja.

wow, i thought this wouldn't happen for another few days

[skunk]

wow, i thought this wouldn't happen for another few days
Is it my imagination, or have they lost it completely over there? They seem to be running around like headless chickens...