Miss California: Gay marriage answer cost me Miss USA crown

[leekohler]

Well- this is interesting. I'm certainly no fan of Perez Hilton, but I certainly understand why he did what he did. Substitute the word "gay" for "jew" or "catholic" and see how that sounds.


Miss California says candor cost her the crown in Sunday's Miss USA competition.

Carrie Prejean, 21, probably knew she was in trouble when she acknowledged her opposition to same-sex marriages in response to a question from openly gay judge Perez Hilton, the celebrity blogger.

"In my country, and in my family, I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman," Prejean replied. Later, she lost to Miss North Carolina.

"It did cost me my crown," Prejean, the first runner-up, said of her response, on Monday's " Billy Bush Show." "I wouldn't have had it any other way. I said what I feel. I stated an opinion that was true to myself and that's all I can do."

In an appearance Monday on MSNBC, Hilton said he was absolutely "shocked and incredibly frustrated and disappointed" with Prejean's stance.

"That's not the kind of woman I want to be Miss USA," he said. "Miss USA should represent all Americans and, with her answer, she instantly alienated millions of gays and lesbians and their friends."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/ny-etmiss2112675670apr20,0,2777847.story

[kastenbrust]

Im surprised someone who is 21 is still living in the last century, i honestly feel sorry for her, she's missing out on so much in life having such a narrow mind.

[leekohler]

Im surprised someone who is 21 is still living in the last century, i honestly feel sorry for her, she's missing out on so much in life having such a narrow mind.

She definitely got the attention she wanted. Now no one cares who won the crown.

[brad.c]

While she was certainly more articulate than contestants in the past (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww), she doesn't appear to be any more educated.

[anjinha]

I liked how she said "opposite marriage". :D So funny.

[leekohler]

I liked how she said "opposite marriage". :D So funny.

Wow! I missed that! :D

[hwojtek]

Does approval for same-sex marriages come in package with education in USA?

[beatzfreak]

The whole quote: (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30298051/)

"We live in a land where you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage," Prejean said. "And you know what, I think in my country, in my family, I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman. No offense to anybody out there, but that's how I was raised."

Not the brightest bulb in the bunch. There is sooooo much wrong with this statement.

[brad.c]

Does approval for same-sex marriages come in package with education in USA?

Only in that prejudice lives hand-in-hand with ignorance.

[NT1440]

I honestly don't understand who can idolize any of these pathetic shells of people. The entire pageant is nothing but vanity.

[leekohler]

I honestly don't understand who can idolize any of these pathetic shells of people. The entire pageant is nothing but vanity.

I'd say she probably has quite a few fans across the country at the moment. Very well played on her part. I'd say she knew exactly what she was doing. She's going to be all over the media for quite some time, I imagine. :(

[iJohnHenry]

The whole quote: (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30298051/)

"We live in a land where you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage," Prejean said. "And you know what, I think in my country, in my family, I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman. No offense to anybody out there, but that's how I was raised."

Not the brightest bulb in the bunch. There is sooooo much wrong with this statement.

So, you would interfere with her own family life??

Hardly welcoming of difference of opinion.

[leekohler]

So, you would interfere with her own family life??

Hardly welcoming of difference of opinion.

Hmm...you conveniently neglected to bold "in my country". Like I said, substitute the word for "jew" or "catholic' and tell me how that statement is acceptable.

[Kardashian]

She's an idiot, its quite sad.

No offense meant, Lee - but I think the less said about her the better. She's not of any importance so trying to make an example of her won't get any of us very far.

This is partly fuelled by my frustration of hearing about her the past 2 days from almost every media outlet - and I don't even live in the USA.

My friend is Miss Wales here in the UK, and she's far more articulate and would never, ever dream of saying anything so stupid - b/c she's intelligent and lives in the modern day, and is accepting and understanding.

This girl condemned half of her "public".

Also..

Hmm...you conveniently neglected to bold "in my country". Like I said, substitute the word for "jew" or "catholic' and tell me how that statement is acceptable.

I'd be screwed. Twice over. Gay and Jewish. Oops!

[iJohnHenry]

Hmm...you conveniently neglected to bold "in my country". Like I said, substitute the word for "jew" or "catholic' and tell me how that statement is acceptable.

Agreed.

If she had said "In my country, or rather in my family....", there would have been less concern.

[leekohler]

This girl condemned half of her "public".

And the other half thinks she's a hero. It scares the crap out of me. She's going to be viewed positively by a lot of people. They're going to use this to their advantage. "See! Now you can't even be against gay marriage and win Miss USA! We're being discriminated against!" Trust me- it's coming.

[NT1440]

Agreed.

If she had said "In my country, or rather in my family....", there would have been less concern.

She could barely string a full sentence together, there's no way she could use any of that fancy talk.

[beatzfreak]

So, you would interfere with her own family life??

Hardly welcoming of difference of opinion.

Who's interfering? Is someone in her family forced to get same-sex married?

What's wrong with the statement is:

1. You don't choose what sex you're are attracted to.

2. In this land, in most states you can't choose same-sex marriage because it isn't legal.

3. Opposite marriage? What is that?

[EricNau]

And another martyr is born. Must we give her the publicity she so obviously seeks?

[NT1440]

I dont understand how she could be miss CALIFORNIA of all states....

[Sun Baked]

I dont understand how she could be miss CALIFORNIA of all states....

At least she isn't Miss San Francisco. ;)

[mkrishnan]

Im surprised someone who is 21 is still living in the last century

Is her brain really unique here? What part of the entire beauty pageant world is not living in the last century?

[hwojtek]

Only in that prejudice lives hand-in-hand with ignorance.

Would she been ignorant, she wouldn't have any opinion on the same-sex marriage at all.
Let's just shift the balance of what she said from the still-controversial same-sex marriage to something more common. Wearing seatbelts. I am not trying to compare the two things, they are totally different (however both are somehow important for lives of millions of people) and I do not want to depreciate same-sex marriage at all. Better yet I won't disclose my own opinion on it, since it is irrelevant.
But just for a mental exercise: let's say she was from Kentucky and not California, it's been not a beauty contest but a job interview at NHTSA, and she's been asked if not using seatbelts should be punished with a lifelong driver license suspension. She answers:

"We live in a land where you can choose using your seatbelts or not using them. And you know what, I think in my country, in my family, I think that I believe that seatbelts should only be used by those who want to do so. No offense to anybody out there, but that's how I was raised."

Most sane people would agree: ridiculous b/s, since it is scientifically proven: seatbelts save lives. BUT: she'd had a choice - saying something that would sell at NHTSA HQ's or saying something she believes in.
If NHTSA wouldn't hire her because of this exact sentence being said (and only this sentence alone, not other abilities - after all, she was 100% qualified for a beauty queen) - she'd sue NHTSA and probably win. Nobody can be discriminated for his personal beliefs (as long, as they are not a danger to other people, so criminal activity is exempted). See a parallel to the beauty contest you mentioned?
So, as I see it - she has been labeled as "narrow minded" (and in the meantime while I was writing it, also "an idiot", geeez) because she said the truth about herself, and not something the public wanted to hear. I haven't seen something like that coming from a country where freedom of having personal beliefs and freedom of being able to communicate them is one of the fundaments of the State.
The fact that someone is disappointed by not hearing what (s)he wanted to hear does not justify applying a rude and brutal label to another persons' forehead. It's just not right to exercise own freedom without allowing other people doing the same.

Oh, and by the way to the OP: AFAIK "Jew" should be written with a capital J. Also, putting "catholic" instead of "gay" just doesn't work with the rest of the sentence. You'd have to substitute a lot more in what she said to make this substitution work, which of course would destroy the whole parallel.
And "in my country" is actually an effect of herself using (probably without even knowing what she did) a number of rhetorical techniques aimed to add an emphasis that she's talking about "America AS I WOULD WANT it to be".

[mactastic]

I'd say she probably has quite a few fans across the country at the moment. Very well played on her part. I'd say she knew exactly what she was doing. She's going to be all over the media for quite some time, I imagine. :(
Oh she'll be playing the martyr role for all it's worth.

Face it, you weren't hot enough to win. Tough. You certainly weren't going to win on brains.

[Kardashian]

And another martyr is born. Must we give her the publicity she so obviously seeks?

Exactly.

She has no real power or influence. Sure, for a small percentage of people (before someone chimes in with "all the Gay haters will love her" - that's not true. They'd have to watch the pageant, or look on Perez Hilton or other sources covering this, I should imagine most people in the same mind set as her don't look at these media outlets in the first place) she might be seen as the light carrying martyr. She's here today and gone tomorrow. She's pretty legs and a big mouth.

Making an example of this girl will achieve nothing except give Perez Hilton more bragging rights on his determination to become a celebrity in his own right.

[Zombie Acorn]

I dont understand how she could be miss CALIFORNIA of all states....

Didn't they vote down gay marriage last election? Seems she isn't alone.

She can have whatever opinion she wants as far as I am concerned. Religions shouldn't be forced to recognize gay marriage nor perform the ceremonies, but there should be a legal marriage available to gays.

I am mostly conservative in my views, but I don't buy into organized religion (or most religion at all), I think that religion is the main force pushing against gays. I don't understand why someone would spend so much time worrying about how someone else lives their life. :rolleyes:

[mactastic]

I dont understand how she could be miss CALIFORNIA of all states....
Why? California is not the liberal stereotype conservatives make it out to be. Sure, it's majority liberal, and votes as such on a state level; but there are some scary conservative places. Actually, much of the inland areas are heavily conservative.

And even some of the most liberal of places co-habitate with conservatives. Growing up in Santa Cruz, I was shocked to discover that there is a significant contingent of far-right extremists living in the hills just outside the city proper. Full on nazi-supporting, white-supremacist, KKKlavern, sovereign nation folks, right outside hippy central. Parties in Boulder Creek can get real interesting...

Or look at Humboltd county. Their reputation is that it's pot-growing heaven. The university is famed for hacky sack games, and smoking weed is practically a major; yet the county is actually fairly split between the hippy types and logging types. Makes for an interesting mix of people.

California is not at all like what it is portrayed as in the national media.

[yg17]

The whole quote: (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30298051/)

"We live in a land where you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage," Prejean said. "And you know what, I think in my country, in my family, I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman. No offense to anybody out there, but that's how I was raised."

Not the brightest bulb in the bunch. There is sooooo much wrong with this statement.

What choice is this dumb bimbo talking about? You can't choose gay marriage in the US.

[EricNau]

Would she been ignorant, she wouldn't have any opinion on the same-sex marriage at all.
Let's just shift the balance of what she said from the still-controversial same-sex marriage to something more common. Wearing seatbelts. I am not trying to compare the two things, they are totally different (however both are somehow important for lives of millions of people) and I do not want to depreciate same-sex marriage at all, better yet I won't disclose my opinion on that.
But just for a mental exercise: let's say she was from Kentucky and not California, it's been not a beauty contest but a job interview at NHTSA, and she's been asked if not using seatbelts should be punished with a lifelong driver license suspension. She answers:

"We live in a land where you can choose using your seatbelts or not using them. And you know what, I think in my country, in my family, I think that I believe that seatbelts should only be used by those who want to do so. No offense to anybody out there, but that's how I was raised."

Most sane people would agree: ridiculous b/s, since it is scientifically proven: seatbelts save lives. BUT: she'd had a choice - saying something that would sell at NHTSA HQ's or saying something she believes in.
If NHTSA wouldn't hire her because of this being (and what she said alone, not other competences - after all, she was 100% qualified for a beauty queen) - she'd sue NHTSA and probably win. Nobody can be discriminated for his personal beliefs (as long, as they are not a danger to other people, so criminal activity is exempted). See a parallel to the beauty contest you mentioned?
You're right, personal beliefs may not be a factor in employment, so long as you can still perform your job. With your scenario, an applicant to the NHTSA is free to believe whatever they wish, so long as they fulfill their job, which might include advocating the use of seat belts even though it's against their beliefs.

So, as I see it - she has been labeled as "narrow minded" because she said the truth about herself, and not something the public wanted to hear. I haven't seen something like that coming from a country where freedom of having personal beliefs and freedom of being able to communicate them is one of the fundaments of the State.
The fact that someone is disappointed by not hearing what (s)he wanted to hear does not justify applying a rude and brutal label to another persons' forehead. It's just not right to exercise own freedom without allowing other people doing the same.
She's running for Miss America, a position based solely on popularity. Anything goes. They could have inquired as to her favorite ice cream flavor, and upon her answer of chocolate the judges could change their vote.

She was absolutely free to voice her opinion, just as the judges were free to voice their own opinion in not voting for her.

[Randman]

I'd care more if she was better looking ...

[Gelfin]

What choice is this dumb bimbo talking about? You can't choose gay marriage in the US.

No, but you can choose "opposite marriage," or as we prefer to call it, "bizarro marriage." That's the one where you pick someone you hate more than anyone else, and the bride wears black and the groom wears white, and instead of "I do" you say "Me don't."

You can choose that.

[Kardashian]

She can have whatever opinion she wants as far as I am concerned. Religions shouldn't be forced to recognize gay marriage nor perform the ceremonies, but there should be a legal marriage available to gays.

This is something I agree with totally.

I'm not exactly fussed about being supported by religion when it comes to spending my life with someone and taking vows to one another (luckily, my religion completely supports me).

However, I think you guys should have equal rights in the eyes of the law, like we do in the UK.

The 'marriage' thing complicates it with all the old school Christian nuts running around.

[hwojtek]

She was absolutely free to voice her opinion, just as the judges were free to voice their own opinion in not voting for her.

Sure. Does it entitle anyone to label her 'idiot' (except she could lie and let'em hear what they wanted to, win and forget about this little white lie a bit later)?

And just by the way. Most people (pro same-sex marriage or against it) will agree that telling lies is bad. Is it better to lie and win a beauty contest or tell the truth and lose? I think the latter...

And BTW2 - I can't believe anything a blonde chick with fake boobs said about same-sex marriage is so important to make it into 2nd page of a thread. It's case closed. She lost. I wonder what did the winner answer?

[Shivetya]

I applaud her for her honesty.

However this was all about Perez using an inappropriate forum to punish those who don't ascribe to his views. In other words, he is simply disgusting for that stunt.


Oh, and Perez calling her a "bitch" on his site just goes so to show that he is just another immature left winger whose only response is to name call and slander. After all calling a woman a bitch is okay provided your a self assumed aggrieved person.

[NT1440]

I applaud her for her honesty.

However this was all about Perez using an inappropriate forum to punish those who don't ascribe to his views. In other words, he is simply disgusting for that stunt

These pageants are 100% about pandering to the judges, she knew what the hell she was doing (though she may have been a bit distracted with remembering to breathe).

[NT1440]

Oh, and Perez calling her a "bitch" on his site just goes so to show that he is just another immature left winger whose only response is to name call and slander. After all calling a woman a bitch is okay provided your a self assumed aggrieved person.

Hmm name calling and slander, which party seems to have a knack for that? Surely the left!:rolleyes:

[mactastic]

Sure. Does it entitle anyone to label her 'idiot' (except she could lie and let'em hear what they wanted to, win and forget about this little white lie a bit later)?
She's not being called an idiot because she opposes full legal equality for homosexuals, but rather because she can't string together a coherent sentence to describe her opposition to such.

[Kardashian]

However this was all about Perez using an inappropriate forum to punish those who don't ascribe to his views. In other words, he is simply disgusting for that stunt.

Views? No. Who he is. Yes.

Oh, and Perez calling her a "bitch" on his site just goes so to show that he is just another immature left winger whose only response is to name call and slander. After all calling a woman a bitch is okay provided your a self assumed aggrieved person.

The argument isn't about Perez Hilton. He is not a spokesperson for all Gay and Lesbian people.

He's someone who has the ability to draw attention to a matter, though.

Sure. Does it entitle anyone to label her 'idiot' (except she could lie and let'em hear what they wanted to, win and forget about this little white lie a bit later)?

And just by the way. Most people (pro same-sex marriage or against it) will agree that telling lies is bad. Is it better to lie and win a beauty contest or tell the truth and lose? I think the latter...

For me, its not about her honesty. She's a die hard Christian, I'll leave my opinions on that to one side - let's just say I pitty her following that religion.

The argument is about how she said it - not what she said. (For most people)

[mactastic]

I applaud her for her honesty.

However this was all about Perez using an inappropriate forum to punish those who don't ascribe to his views. In other words, he is simply disgusting for that stunt.


Oh, and Perez calling her a "bitch" on his site just goes so to show that he is just another immature left winger whose only response is to name call and slander. After all calling a woman a bitch is okay provided your a self assumed aggrieved person.
Perez was absolutely out of line for calling her names after she attempted an honest answer to his question, and he should have the decency to retract the retraction of his apology to this woman.

Of course, you yourself have resorted in this very post to the same tactics your purport to decry, by labeling him "just another immature left winger", not to mention "a self assumed aggrieved person" (whatever that is).

[brad.c]

Would she been ignorant, she wouldn't have any opinion on the same-sex marriage at all.....

Does she though? Sounds like she is just regurgitating her upbringing. I can't tell if you are defending her choice, or her right to say it without retribution.


Let's just shift the balance of what she said from the still-controversial same-sex marriage to something more common. Wearing seatbelts. I am not trying to compare the two things, they are totally different (however both are somehow important for lives of millions of people) and I do not want to depreciate same-sex marriage at all. Better yet I won't disclose my own opinion on it, since it is irrelevant.
But just for a mental exercise: let's say she was from Kentucky and not California, it's been not a beauty contest but a job interview at NHTSA, and she's been asked if not using seatbelts should be punished with a lifelong driver license suspension. She answers:

"We live in a land where you can choose using your seatbelts or not using them. And you know what, I think in my country, in my family, I think that I believe that seatbelts should only be used by those who want to do so. No offense to anybody out there, but that's how I was raised."

Most sane people would agree: ridiculous b/s, since it is scientifically proven: seatbelts save lives. BUT: she'd had a choice - saying something that would sell at NHTSA HQ's or saying something she believes in.
If NHTSA wouldn't hire her because of this exact sentence being said (and only this sentence alone, not other abilities - after all, she was 100% qualified for a beauty queen) - she'd sue NHTSA and probably win. Nobody can be discriminated for his personal beliefs (as long, as they are not a danger to other people, so criminal activity is exempted). See a parallel to the beauty contest you mentioned?
So, as I see it - she has been labeled as "narrow minded" (and in the meantime while I was writing it, also "an idiot", geeez) because she said the truth about herself, and not something the public wanted to hear. I haven't seen something like that coming from a country where freedom of having personal beliefs and freedom of being able to communicate them is one of the fundaments of the State.
The fact that someone is disappointed by not hearing what (s)he wanted to hear does not justify applying a rude and brutal label to another persons' forehead. It's just not right to exercise own freedom without allowing other people doing the same.

Okay, so we should give her credit for having the conviction to stand by her beliefs. Is this a correct interpretation of your analogy?

The trouble with your seatbelt analogy is, the matter of choice is reversed. She would support the choice whether or not to restrain oneself. In the real world of unsafe hot-button issues, her beliefs would deny the choice to those who want same sex marriage. And that denial of basic rights is prejudicial.

Let me throw in another analogy for you. Lets say I am white, and in love with a black woman. My parents are old fashioned (aka bigots), and do not support our union. We get married, but they refuse to come to our wedding. Should I applaud their conviction, or denounce them for the racists they would be?

Oh, and by the way to the OP: AFAIK "Jew" should be written with a capital J. Also, putting "catholic" instead of "gay" just doesn't work with the rest of the sentence. You'd have to substitute a lot more in what she said to make this substitution work, which of course would destroy the whole parallel.
And "in my country" is actually an effect of herself using (probably without even knowing what she did) a number of rhetorical techniques aimed to add an emphasis that she's talking about "America AS I WOULD WANT it to be".

Again, I am sorry that I cannot see your point here, but why would "Jew" be capitalised, but not "catholic"?

[Rt&Dzine]

She has no real power or influence. Sure, for a small percentage of people (before someone chimes in with "all the Gay haters will love her" - that's not true .... She's here today and gone tomorrow. She's pretty legs and a big mouth.

Oh I don't know, maybe she'll be chosen for Vice-President or something. ;)

[hwojtek]

For me, its not about her honesty. She's a die hard Christian,

Her honesty comes from her being a Christian, it's fundamentally connected. She just followed her faith. Is it wrong?
If you say "what Christians think about same-sex marriage is wrong", you just add another brick to the ever-growing wall of intolerance between religions. If someone doesn't finally end adding up bricks from his side of the wall, it will keep growing.

I'll leave my opinions on that to one side - let's just say I pitty her following that religion.

Well, you tried hard, but you failed to leave them aside after all :-)

The argument is about how she said it - not what she said. (For most people)

How she said? You mean she's labelled as an idiot because she said something about her family or exaggerated a bit with "my country"? I actually believe she made a shortcut about "my country as I would want it to be", as I mentioned above. I just watched how she answered on YT and she seems to be no more and no less literate than an average American. Quick answer, maybe a bit short of breath but she seems pretty sure what she's saying... So what's the "how"?

[Kardashian]

Oh I don't know, maybe she'll run for Vice-President or something. ;)

Oh G-d.

We have elections here next year - and the choice is appalling.

Not that we'll get something like this idiot but the choices aren't much better. Hopefully I'll be in Australia by then :)

[Kardashian]

Her honesty comes from her being a Christian, it's fundamentally connected. She just followed her faith. Is it wrong?

I mentioned nothing about her honesty being connected to her religion. I'm Jewish and Gay - I'm still honest.

Christianity has nothing to do with it.

Yet again, as I and other people have said, its not her honesty thats the problem. Got that? ;)

She wanted to be Miss USA - she shouldn't have been following her faith in a way that she acted on behalf of everyone else. Which brings me to my next point below.



How she said? You mean she's labelled as an idiot because she said something about her family or exaggerated a bit with "my country"?
I've never been that good as math, as Abstract can back me up on, but 1 persons view, suddenly being expanded to the views of a country with over 300,000,000 citizens is a bit more than an exaggeration.

[kastenbrust]

I'd say she probably has quite a few fans across the country at the moment. Very well played on her part. I'd say she knew exactly what she was doing. She's going to be all over the media for quite some time, I imagine. :(

Thats the whole problem, had she been born 100 years ago she would have no doubt been fighting for womens rights etc, equal opportunities and sexual equality bla bla and now people like her decide to say gay marriage is wrong and people shouldnt be able to choose their sexuality and which sex they are attracted to, how ironic, it makes my blood boil really.

[hwojtek]

Sounds like she is just regurgitating her upbringing. I can't tell if you are defending her choice, or her right to say it without retribution.

That's good, because I don't want get into any judgement on whether or not what she said was plain "right" or "wrong". I do however believe that she should be able to say what she thinks about an important matter (it is important to both protagonists and antagonists of same-sex marriage) without being punished for what she said. Reverse the situation and call a protagonist of same-sex marriage an "idiot" on nationwide TV. You'd be torn in pieces by media within seconds.

Okay, so we should give her credit for having the conviction to stand by her beliefs. Is this a correct interpretation of your analogy?

Kinda, yeah. All I am trying to say is that the situation rises to an absurd state of creating an axiom: "Miss USA must be pro same-sex marriage".

And that denial of basic rights is prejudicial.

You are rolling in much more heavy weaponry than I expected. From what I see after votes in numerous US states, America is not quite convinced same-sex marriage is indeed a basic right. And I am pretty sure there is a strong GLBT movement voting for it, yet the majority is not up to the task.

Let me throw in another analogy for you. Lets say I am white, and in love with a black woman. My parents are old fashioned (aka bigots), and do not support our union. We get married, but they refuse to come to our wedding. Should I applaud their conviction, or denounce them for the racists they would be?

I'd be careful in drawing such parallels. It's been a few decades since USA dropped the segregation and finally admitted black people should enjoy exactly the same set of freedom and rights other US citizens do. But see above - not every state is ready to admit the same for same-sex marriages. It is not a matter if someone is an 'idiot' or not. This campaign cannot be won by calling the opponents 'idiots', because every time somebody who is against same-sex marriage is called an 'idiot', the arrival of this right is postponed another weeks, months and years.

Yet again, as I and other people have said, its not her honesty thats the problem. Got that? ;)
Kind of. I still don't know what is the problem, though.

She wanted to be Miss USA - she shouldn't have been following her faith in a way that she acted on behalf of everyone else.

Whos faith should she been following then?

I've never been that good as math, as Abstract can back me up on, but 1 persons view, suddenly being expanded to the views of a country with over 300,000,000 citizens is a bit more than an exaggeration.

You may call it "a huge exaggeration". Or a "megaexaggeration", whatever. Down to the cold logic, it is still only an exaggeration. An abuse of (assumed) common sense.
Well again, it seems the majority of voters in states which rejected same-sex marriage follows this common sense. So that just might bring down the "mega-" to "kiloexaggeration".
And I will have to repeat myself but it seems I need to: she meant that in America as she dreams it to be, marriages should be between a man and a woman. Her sentence did nothing to threaten same-sex marriages. The fact she lost actually brings them a bit closer.


O/T
Again, I am sorry that I cannot see your point here, but why would "Jew" be capitalised, but not "catholic"?

Because Judaism shares some of the characteristics of a nation, an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture and all these factors are important to a person of Jewish religion, the word "Jew" and even the adjective "Jewish" is usually written with a capital "J" in English - no matter if it denotes a religious view or nationality (or, some racists would say, "race").
Also, because in various cases, it is a synonym to the word "Hebrew", which can describe the nationality and not the religious views as well. (See: Wiki entry on Jews and sub-linked detailed entries ).

[Kardashian]

Kind of. I still don't know what is the problem, though.



Either you're on the same level of intelligence as this poor girl, or you're just trying to find an argument.

The girl spoke on behalf of her family and the whole country. Perez Hilton asked for 'her' view.

Whos faith should she been following then?


Did I say she shouldn't follow her own faith? Again, no.

You just can't seem to take in what people write.

I said "she shouldn't have been following her faith in a way that she acted on behalf of everyone else."

She should have said something more along the lines of "That's a very interesting topic right now, one which is seeing a lot changes. I think its an issue which at the end of the day will need to be decided by the people, for the people. I find in my faith that marriage should be between a man and a woman - but that the Government shouldn't discriminate against who people choose to love. Marriage should be kept separate from the Government"

This way she has made clear her religious beliefs, she has stayed honest to herself, whilst not excluding the public.

Do you understand?


You may call it "a huge exaggeration". Or a "megaexaggeration", whatever.

What would you call taking one persons opinion and making it the opinion of over THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE? A slight stretch?

[mactastic]

Her honesty comes from her being a Christian, it's fundamentally connected.
Absolutely false. I'm sure you're aware that many good Christians have been caught in lies?

All I am trying to say is that the situation rises to an absurd state of creating an axiom: "Miss USA must be pro same-sex marriage".
Is it any different from saying that "a Boy Scout must be Christian and oppose same sex marriage"? Isn't the Miss USA pageant a private organization, and thus allowed to have such a rule if they so decide?

[iJohnHenry]

Kinda, yeah. All I am trying to say is that the situation rises to an absurd state of creating an axiom: "Miss USA must be pro same-sex marriage".

Crap.

Miss USA must be marketable. Nothing more.

[Zombie Acorn]

She's not being called an idiot because she opposes full legal equality for homosexuals, but rather because she can't string together a coherent sentence to describe her opposition to such.

I didn't realize every aspiring model was also a shoe in as a public speaker. :rolleyes: The girl is 21 and in a situation that 90% of people would have piss running down their legs in. Add to that a highly controversial question and its not a very comfortable place to be, these people aren't running to be world leaders.

[Kardashian]

I didn't realize every aspiring model was also a shoe in as a public speaker.
No, but she is holding the title of 'Miss' representing the nation, for what thats worth.

The girl is 21 and in a situation that 90% of people would have piss running down their legs in.

It wasn't forced upon her. She chose to compete.

Add to that a highly controversial question and its not a very comfortable place to be.
My above point covers this as well. It didn't have to be controversial, though.

As a final edit, one of my close friends represents our country holding the 'Miss' title - and she handled 'this' stage of the competition a lot better than Miss Opposite Marriage over there.

[CalBoy]

Add to that a highly controversial question and its not a very comfortable place to be, these people aren't running to be world leaders.

It's not a terribly controversial question in regards to her audience.

It's even less controversial if you consider how many gay people it took to get her onto that stage. She was a fool to bite the hand that feeds her. If she hadn't proclaimed that she lost the competition unfairly (even though those responses are a part of the supposed scoring), we might have even been able to commend her bravery.

Alas whining because your bigotry makes you lose a (pointless) title is quite the antithesis of bravery.

[brad.c]

That's good, because I don't want get into any judgement on whether or not what she said was plain "right" or "wrong". I do however believe that she should be able to say what she thinks about an important matter (it is important to both protagonists and antagonists of same-sex marriage) without being punished for what she said. Reverse the situation and call a protagonist of same-sex marriage an "idiot" on nationwide TV. You'd be torn in pieces by media within seconds.

I didn't call her an idiot, I called her ignorant. She may very well be capable of forming an informed opinion, if she decides to consider the question based on a balanced assessment of the facts, rather than a chosen moral code.

You see, as dangerous as it may be to equate different struggles for personal freedoms (visible versus non-visible minorities), she is advocating a reduction of those freedoms for a select group of individuals because she doesn't like their way of life. This is the very essence of prejudice, which unfortunately is still acceptable if touted under the protective blanket of a religious upbringing.

O/T Because Judaism shares some of the characteristics of a nation, an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture and all these factors are important to a person of Jewish religion, the word "Jew" and even the adjective "Jewish" is usually written with a capital "J" in English - no matter if it denotes a religious view or nationality (or, some racists would say, "race").
Also, because in various cases, it is a synonym to the word "Hebrew", which can describe the nationality and not the religious views as well. (See: Wiki entry on Jews and sub-linked detailed entries ).
Actually, I was more interested in why Catholicism wasn't capitalized in your first quote. Perhaps it was a typo.

[yg17]

OK, so this one didn't get as much attention due to Miss California's bigotry, but did anyone see Miss Arizona try to answer a question about healthcare? Link (http://www.nbc.com/miss-usa-2009/video/clips/miss-arizona-interview-round/1088658/). I have to at least give Miss California a point for somewhat answering the question.

[hwojtek]

Either you're on the same level of intelligence as this poor girl, or you're just trying to find an argument.
The girl spoke on behalf of her family and the whole country. Perez Hilton asked for 'her' view.

You won't offend me, so don't even try to. However you seem to miss a crucial part of her short speech, specifically the part "I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman." There's enough "I"'s to clearly see it is her view. Unless you do not want to see it.
Of course, you have all the rights to malevolently ignore the "I think that I believe" and keep insisting she said something completely different, but this will not change what she actually said, no matter how it upsets you.

Did I say she shouldn't follow her own faith? Again, no.

Why do you disapprove her doing so, then?

You just can't seem to take in what people write.

How would you call it? An exaggeration? Why do you say it on behalf of everybody?
See, how easy it is to make a small mistake in argumentation, even if you are bashing the girl for exactly what you did a few minutes ago?

I said "she shouldn't have been following her faith in a way that she acted on behalf of everyone else."

The "acting on behalf of everyone else" accusation was already proven invalid above.

She should have said something more along the lines of "That's a very interesting topic right now, one which is seeing a lot changes. I think its an issue which at the end of the day will need to be decided by the people, for the people. I find in my faith that marriage should be between a man and a woman - but that the Government shouldn't discriminate against who people choose to love. Marriage should be kept separate from the Government"

Saying something like that is just as interesting as watching her eating cornflakes onstage. She made a point as she was supposed to make, her 30 seconds were just for that an nothing else. She said she doesn't want to offend anyone but her (!) view has been presented in an non-offending and honest manner, period. BTW the sentence "marriage should be kept separate from the Government" is - excusez le mot - so silly, even a Miss USA runner-up would know it just doesn't smell right, since it is all about the Government to recognize the right to same sex marriage.

This way she has made clear her religious beliefs, she has stayed honest to herself, whilst not excluding the public.

No, this way she'd merely satisfy your needs and not make the point she wanted to.

What would you call taking one persons opinion and making it the opinion of over THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE? A slight stretch?

Invalid. Sorry, you just seem not to understand what I've written, no matter how brighter from a Miss USA and me you are.

Absolutely false. I'm sure you're aware that many good Christians have been caught in lies?

You are making a logical error. The fact a lot of Christians (good, bad) were caught in lies doesn't allow an assumption a Christian always tells a lie.

Is it any different from saying that "a Boy Scout must be Christian and oppose same sex marriage"

Does a boy scout? :eek:

Isn't the Miss USA pageant a private organization, and thus allowed to have such a rule if they so decide?

Sure, they can do whatever they want. However this competition should then no longer be called "Miss USA", but "Pro- same-sex marriage Miss USA", to make things perfectly clear. From a tactical point of view she made a mistake. Yet again she's been honest, and even if she disappointed a lot of people by not saying what they wanted to hear, this small dose of honesty form the mouth of Miss USA runner-up doesn't hurt that much, does it?

Of course the aftermath and whining is pathetic, but this is where somebody with a kamikaze-like sense of PR pointed her in a totally wrong direction of "tell the press you lost because you said you do not like gay people and they retaliated".

[Iscariot]

Does a boy scout? :eek:

Actually, yes. The Boy Scouts of America is arguably a Christian organization, and members are required to affirm a belief in God.

[mgguy]

The whole quote: (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30298051/)

"We live in a land where you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage," Prejean said. "And you know what, I think in my country, in my family, I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman. No offense to anybody out there, but that's how I was raised."

Not the brightest bulb in the bunch. There is sooooo much wrong with this statement.

Compare her words to Obama's, below:

I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman.

Gee, not much different. I guess we have at least two dim bulbs in the lot. Although, they do hold the majority opinion in this country, right or wrong.

[CalBoy]

Sure, they can do whatever they want. However this competition should then no longer be called "Miss USA", but "Pro- same-sex marriage Miss USA", to make things perfectly clear.

Same-sex marriage isn't a central tenet of the pageant. It's just a view held by the vast majority of the pageant's employees, many of its viewers, and many of its sponsors.

Otherwise, we might have to relabel Disneyland and Disneyworld as "Gay Town" because both parks have same-sex marriage ceremonies (sans legal recognition). We might also have to relabel Fox News as "GOP."


From a tactical point of view she made a mistake. Yet again she's been honest, and even if she disappointed a lot of people by not saying what they wanted to hear, this small dose of honesty form the mouth of Miss USA runner-up doesn't hurt that much, does it?

Maybe it doesn't hurt when you're not in that group of people or when you don't have a loved one who would be hurt by that comment.

I would have much rather had a truly honest answer come from her, rather than one that attempted to salvage a modicum of the "middle ground."

[hwojtek]

I didn't call her an idiot, I called her ignorant. She may very well be capable of forming an informed opinion, if she decides to consider the question based on a balanced assessment of the facts, rather than a chosen moral code.
The assessment of the facts leads to pure Darwinian "survival of the strongest". Assessment of the facts brutally points out that lack of government-funded social security will leave only those who can afford private insurance alive and solve the problem, or that helping people who are unable to care for themselves is pointless. You need to balance it. And what do you balance it with? With a moral code that says: "help the poor". She applied her moral filter (which, opposed to "help the poor" is not that universal) and said what she said. She didn't ignore the fact of a strong movement for same-sex marriage, she balanced her assessment using the only balance tool known to her - her moral code.

she is advocating a reduction of those freedoms for a select group of individuals because she doesn't like their way of life.

I think she advocated against an extension of freedoms as of today. And it is an allegation "she doesn't like their way". She may be a lesbian against same-sex marriage just as well (highly improbable, but cannot be fully denied).

Actually, I was more interested in why Catholicism wasn't capitalized in your first quote. Perhaps it was a typo.

If you took a look again, you'd noticed I worte "catholic", not "Catholicism". "Catholic" is a plain adjective. No need to capitalize it middle in a sentence.

It's 4am in my timezone, so I'll be going. Thank you. Sorry for my poor English reading and writing, not my native tongue though.

[brad.c]

The assessment of the facts leads to pure Darwinian "survival of the strongest". Assessment of the facts brutally points out that lack of government-funded social security will leave only those who can afford private insurance alive and solve the problem, or that helping people who are unable to care for themselves is pointless. You need to balance it. And what do you balance it with? With a moral code. She applied her moral filter and said what she said. She didn't ignore the fact of a strong movement for same-sex marriage, she balanced her assessment using the only balance tool known to her - her moral code.

Funny you should mention Darwin. Despite the inability to asexually reproduce, homosexuals keep popping up every 10th person or so. Maybe because it's natural?:D

The facts I'm referring to are that a person cannot choose whom they love, but in the reality you are defending, a stranger can dictate the rights of that person to live a life of happiness and equality. Plus the fact that gay rights as pertaining to marriage do nothing to impede the rights of any other segment of society.

I think she advocated against an extension of freedoms as of today. And it is an allegation "she doesn't like their way". She may be a lesbian against same-sex marriage just as well (highly improbable, but cannot be fully denied).

That fact that she is crying foul for being "punished" for espousing outdated, discriminatory intolerance is sad because it allows the ignorant to pretend to be demonized too.

If you took a look again, you'd noticed I worte "catholic", not "Catholicism". "Catholic" is a plain adjective. No need to capitalize it middle in a sentence.

It's 4am in my timezone, so I'll be going. Thank you.
Is that a polish timezone, or a Polish one? ;)

[Gelfin]

Actually, yes. The Boy Scouts of America is arguably a Christian organization, and members are required to affirm a belief in God.

In practice they seem to follow the usual semi-tolerant "believe anything so long as you're some kind of superstitious." It's only non-belief that's explicitly rejected. Non-belief and homos.

[Abstract]

I don't agree with her, but I respect her for honestly answering the question. She's better than most of the contestants based on that alone.

I also don't think she should "fail" to gain the Miss USA crown because of her answer. It should have been based on how well she answered the question (and she didn't answer it well), not the answer itself, or any strong personal bias the judge has towards one particular answer.

If the judge was a anti gay marriage, and anti-gay in general, and she won BECAUSE of her answer (while everyone else said they're all for gay marriage), would the judge's bias be tolerated like it is now?


Again, I'm for gay marriage, but I'm not a fan of bias in competitions.

[mactastic]

I didn't realize every aspiring model was also a shoe in as a public speaker. :rolleyes: The girl is 21 and in a situation that 90% of people would have piss running down their legs in. Add to that a highly controversial question and its not a very comfortable place to be, these people aren't running to be world leaders.
Public speaking is -- at least allegedly -- a part of this competition, is it not? Would it not be a safe assumption that she would have had some practice and experience speaking in public while wearing semi-revealing clothing before?

You are making a logical error. The fact a lot of Christians (good, bad) were caught in lies doesn't allow an assumption a Christian always tells a lie.
LOL... You're the one with the logical error. Please show me where I said that a Christian always tells a lie. And good luck with that one!

Does a boy scout? :eek:

Sure, they can do whatever they want. However this competition should then no longer be called "Miss USA", but "Pro- same-sex marriage Miss USA", to make things perfectly clear.
Sure. And the Boy Scouts should then no longer be called the Boy Scouts of America, but rather "Anti-same sex marriage Scouts", right? :rolleyes:

From a tactical point of view she made a mistake. Yet again she's been honest, and even if she disappointed a lot of people by not saying what they wanted to hear, this small dose of honesty form the mouth of Miss USA runner-up doesn't hurt that much, does it?
You won't hurt me with this claim, so don't even try. However; you're missing the point. I could care less what she said. She just shouldn't complain when it's held against her; just as a Scout shouldn't complain when he's drummed out of the Scouts for refusing to say he believes in God when he truly doesn't.

[yg17]

Public speaking is -- at least allegedly -- a part of this competition, is it not? Would it not be a safe assumption that she would have had some practice and experience speaking in public while wearing semi-revealing clothing before?

Agreed. I think the entire point of the questions is to show viewers that these contestants aren't just your stereotypical dumb bimbos with big tits, and that they do have a brain. So I think it's fair to expect that when they're asked a question about an issue like gay marriage, they form a coherent response that makes sense, even if it's anti-gay marriage. The first half of her question, about us having a choice between same sex and opposite marriage made no sense and didn't do anything to disprove that stereotype.

But I will give Miss California one thing....she sounds like Stephen Hawking when compared to Miss South Carolina (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww).

[mgguy]

OK. So Obama's saying that: I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman.
didn't get a reaction from anyone here.

How about the following quote from Obama:

I believe marriage is between a man and a women. I am not in favor of gay marriage.

Might we say that Obama and Miss California have a lot in common? Neither apparently are concerned about pissing off gays.

[mactastic]

OK. So Obama's saying that: didn't get a reaction from anyone here.

How about the following quote from Obama:



Might we say that Obama and Miss California have a lot in common? Neither apparently are concerned about pissing off gays.
Too stupid to even merit a response. I just LOL'd. Better luck with your next anti-Obama screed though.

[.Andy]

OK. So Obama's saying that: didn't get a reaction from anyone here.

How about the following quote from Obama:

Might we say that Obama and Miss California have a lot in common? Neither apparently are concerned about pissing off gays.
I'll give you a reaction if you want. (a) his religion is ridiculous, (b) he deserves severe lambasting if he imposes his religious views on others, and (c) he has no chance of winning the miss america crown.

[Iscariot]

I'll give you a reaction if you want. (a) his religion is ridiculous, (b) he deserves severe lambasting if he imposes his religious views on others, and (c) he has no chance of winning the miss america crown.

although (d) he could be a member of the Boy Scouts.

[mgguy]

Too stupid to even merit a response.

Stupid in what way? Both said basically the same thing about same sex marriage, and yet only one is criticized and called a dim bulb for saying it. Now that's stupid.

[pseudobrit]

I applaud her for her honesty.

I don't. Just because someone is an honest and open bigot doesn't diminish the shame they bring to themselves.

If you need to keep your bigoted, hateful sentiments to yourself it's an acknowledgement of a deviation from what is socially acceptable, even if the wrongness isn't recognized.

[.Andy]

Stupid in what way? Both said basically the same thing about same sex marriage, and yet only one is criticized and called a dim bulb for saying it. Now that's stupid.
Only one blamed not getting the miss america title on it. However both are "dim bulbs" on the matter.

You've got this odd fixation that people here don't criticise obama. You've been shown up for it another thread by making the same claim when the preceding pages were filled with people being extremely vocal in their displeasure with obama's actions. Reality isn't matching your perception.

[Kardashian]

You won't offend me, so don't even try to.
I wouldn't try to. I feel sorry for someone who shares this womans beliefs.


Why do you disapprove her doing so, then?
Again, I don't.

I disapprove of her using her religion to cast out members of the public, her public - and also phrasing it in a way that includes everyone elses beliefs. If she can't form a sentence, she shouldn't be on stage, and thank G-d she lost.

Please get off this 'I'm again her religion thing' - I'm not.


Saying something like that is just as interesting as watching her eating cornflakes onstage. She made a point as she was supposed to make, her 30 seconds were just for that an nothing else.

No, again, she was there for her 'country'. Not herself, her country. She wanted to become a respresentation of her state, and hopefully her country. How can you become this, when you cast aside millions of people? She didn't only cast aside gay and lesbians, but their family and friends - and those numbers far outweigh gay and lesbians alone.

She's also not up there to be interesting. How can you imply she should be interesting when halfway through the competition she parades in high heels and a bikini?


BTW the sentence "marriage should be kept separate from the Government" is - excusez le mot - so silly, even a Miss USA runner-up would know it just doesn't smell right, since it is all about the Government to recognize the right to same sex marriage.
No its not.

Its for the Government to recognise Gay Rights - and its for religious councils to recognise marriage. Marriage is something between 2 people, and the leader of their faith - not between them and the town hall.

This is how she could have turned it around. Again, clearly you stand by your poster girl and believe that gay people don't deserve rights or something, as the only things you've said in this thread are supportive comments towards this idiot.


No, this way she'd merely satisfy your needs and not make the point she wanted to.

That's the whole point!

She wanted to be Miss USA, the poster girl for her country. She can't go around excluding people, simple as.

Stop trying to answer everybody back to win a bitchy little argument based on your beliefs and her being your poster child against all the bad gays in the world.

Have fun with your bible.

[Jack Flash]

I think it was an unfair question to ask her. I'm curious if any other contestants were asked as polarizing a question as she was.

[Tilpots]

Miss USA is from my hometown. A local TV station devoted an episode to get to know her before the pageant. She's a nice, well spoken young lady. And she was beating Miss California in every category up to and including the Q&A session. So the answer didn't cost her the crown, she'd already lost it. Entire interview with Kristen Dalton can be seen here. (http://www.youtube.com/cbs10wilm)

[brad.c]

...Might we say that Obama and Miss California have a lot in common? Neither apparently are concerned about pissing off gays.

The difference in their statements was that Miss CA said "I believe this" (even though she may be no more than a blind follower), and Mr O said "I believe my TRADITIONS AND RELIGIOUS BELIEFS say this". Subtle distinction. She took a stand against equality, and he performed a bi-partisan politicians maneouver of not answering the question--and that is assuming the question was identical in each case.

I wonder if either contest is winnable if one declares themselves an atheist?

... and (c) he has no chance of winning the miss america crown.

:D

[leekohler]

I applaud her for her honesty.

However this was all about Perez using an inappropriate forum to punish those who don't ascribe to his views. In other words, he is simply disgusting for that stunt.


Oh, and Perez calling her a "bitch" on his site just goes so to show that he is just another immature left winger whose only response is to name call and slander. After all calling a woman a bitch is okay provided your a self assumed aggrieved person.

So- she's entitled to her opinion, but he isn't? :confused::confused:

[yg17]

So- she's entitled to her opinion, but he isn't? :confused::confused:

Of course....calling her a bitch is left wing liberal slander, but saying it's OK to take away the rights of a large group of people? Nope, nothing wrong with that at all :rolleyes:

[brad.c]

Of course....calling her a bitch is left wing liberal slander, but saying it's OK to take away the rights of a large group of people? Nope, nothing wrong with that at all :rolleyes:

I agree he was out of line, particularly because he agreed to officiate, and thus should be expected to act in a professional manner regarding his duties. But the fact is they are both manipulating the situation to maximize personal media exposure.

[leekohler]

Of course....calling her a bitch is left wing liberal slander, but saying it's OK to take away the rights of a large group of people? Nope, nothing wrong with that at all :rolleyes:

And Hilton is the disgusting one? I mean...SERIOUSLY?

Does everyone see now what I've been talking about? People like Shivetya are going to think this woman is some kind of hero. That is what is scary about this.

[Zombie Acorn]

Public speaking is -- at least allegedly -- a part of this competition, is it not? Would it not be a safe assumption that she would have had some practice and experience speaking in public while wearing semi-revealing clothing before?


I doubt many of these girls have spoke before an audience as large as the one they were speaking at this time. The last 2 candidates I have seen speak (I don't watch these things) both cracked up and sounded like idiots. Last year wasn't the girl talking about Africa being the reason that US citizens couldn't find their own country on a map?

I don't agree with her opinion anyways, but I don't fault her for sounding like an idiot while trying to explain her opinion (which I think is wrong).

[mgguy]

The difference in their statements was that Miss CA said "I believe this" (even though she may be no more than a blind follower), and Mr O said "I believe my TRADITIONS AND RELIGIOUS BELIEFS say this". Subtle distinction. She took a stand against equality, and he performed a bi-partisan politicians maneouver of not answering the question--and that is assuming the question was identical in each case.
:D

Nice try but no, as I posted above Obama said this:

I believe marriage is between a man and a women. I am not in favor of gay marriage.

The only difference here is that she probably was not expecting this type of question but Obama knew he would get it, and yet still said no way to gay marriage. Imagine that, from someone who is supposed to be so smart and cool.

[AlexH]

President Obama is the leader of the most powerful nation on planet earth and has real power and influence. Miss California just stands there and looks pretty. Both are against gay marriage and define marriage as being between one man and one woman, and both base that decision on their religious beliefs.

Oh yeah, this thread is totally on target. Please continue...

[mactastic]

Stupid in what way? Both said basically the same thing about same sex marriage, and yet only one is criticized and called a dim bulb for saying it. Now that's stupid.
No, not for saying it. For HOW it was said. If you'll note, I also disagree with Obama's view on gay marriage; but Obama expresses his view coherently.

However, I disagree with his view less than with others who would propose a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. At the presidential level, Obama was the lesser of two weevils on gay marriage (and many other issues as well).

It's stupid because you're attempting to say I'm belittling this woman for her view. I'm not. I'm picking on her because of her poor speaking skills and because of her attempt to blame someone else for her loss (and whatever happened to personal responsibility?).

You're just sucking on sour grapes over Obama's win. Or, as Jon Stewart said, you're in the minority. It's supposed to taste like a **** taco.

I doubt many of these girls have spoke before an audience as large as the one they were speaking at this time. The last 2 candidates I have seen speak (I don't watch these things) both cracked up and sounded like idiots. Last year wasn't the girl talking about Africa being the reason that US citizens couldn't find their own country on a map?

I don't agree with her opinion anyways, but I don't fault her for sounding like an idiot while trying to explain her opinion (which I think is wrong).
If you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Surely there are good looking women out there that can string a coherent sentence together? Perhaps a dearth of those type of competitors is because the pageant organizers, sponsors, and viewers really are more interested in bra size than IQ?

[brad.c]

Nice try, but, no, Obama said
Not trying anything. Sorry, but my interpretation of the second quote was that it was paraphrased from the first, not a second direct quote. I stand corrected on that.

McCain made a similar anti-gay marriage declaration on the Ellen Degeneres show, to her obvious dismay. Maybe McCain should have complained about that when he lost.:rolleyes:

When asked by Ellen, Hillary Clinton deferred the question to be a matter of state law. I don't know if Ellen asked Obama at all, either before or after the dancing.


The only difference here is that she probably was not expecting this type of question but Obama knew he would get it, and yet still said no way to gay marriage. Imagine that, from someone who is supposed to be so smart and cool.
What chance does a political candidate have if they don't paint themselves in Christian purity? They are both wrong on this issue, but I think I'm going to have more hope in the future of Obama's successful reign than in that of any Miss USA.

[stevento]

Gay marriage is wrong. It's wrong today. It's going to be wrong tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. Always and forever, gay marriage will be wrong. and perez wants to turn ms california into the bad guy for saying it. I bet if she had said something as equally incoherent, but in favor of gay marriage, she would've gotten a perfect score from perez.
The reason perez is angry is because she didn't like what she had to say, not how she said it. look at his latest blog entry.

[NT1440]

Gay marriage is wrong. It's wrong today. It's going to be wrong tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. Always and forever, gay marriage will be wrong.

Care to elaborate why exactly?

Also, what if hillary supported it?;)

[chrmjenkins]

So- she's entitled to her opinion, but he isn't? :confused::confused:

Irrespective of his orientation, I don't know why we will it fitting to have a celebrity gossip columnist as a judge of American ideals expressed in womanhood? Not that I care, because I have a cynical view of the competition to begin with. I'm just curious if anyone else thinks it odd having him on the panel?

[bobr1952]

Must be part of the unenlightened California youth that kept fairness from prevailing during the last election.

[NT1440]

Irrespective of his orientation, I don't know why we will it fitting to have a celebrity gossip columnist as a judge of American ideals expressed in womanhood? Not that I care, because I have a cynical view of the competition to begin with. I'm just curious if anyone else thinks it odd having him on the panel?

You and I both know that these pageants have no actual goal other than to degrade women by assuring them you can be the best by looking like a plastic doll and to grab ratings. When you want rating you throw in whatever "celebrities" you can afford.

[mgguy]

Why are gay men serving as judges of women's beauty pageants anyway? Are they really in a best position to assess feminine appeal and physical attractiveness? Just asking.

[NT1440]

Why are gay men serving as judges of women's beauty pageants anyway? Are they really in a best position to assess feminine appeal and physical attractiveness? Just asking.

This isn't a "beauty pageant".

[Kardashian]

Why are gay men serving as judges of women's beauty pageants anyway? Are they really in a best position to assess feminine appeal and physical attractiveness? Just asking.

You can tell when someone is pretty or not if you're gay. Its not like we have glasses on that make girls invisible.

Also, have you been living under a rock or have you noticed the link between gay men and fashion, gay men and trends, or gay men and hot girls?

[AlexH]

This isn't a "beauty pageant".
Let me guess, it's a scholarship program? :D

[mgguy]

This isn't a "beauty pageant".

Really? Then why have them walk around in bathing suits? Get real.

[freeny]

Well- this is interesting. I'm certainly no fan of Perez Hilton, but I certainly understand why he did what he did. Substitute the word "gay" for "jew" or "catholic" and see how that sounds.

Perhaps you should choose something one does not have control over like ethnicity for your analogy. Religion is a personal choice for the most part.

[NT1440]

Really? Then why have them walk around in bathing suits? Get real.

If you read the thread youd know my actual feelings on these disgusting events. But they are supposed to be more than just whos hottest, hence the talent and Q&A sessions.

Perez was there to judge the whole thing, not just who has the best rack.

[Kardashian]

Gay marriage is wrong. It's wrong today. It's going to be wrong tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. Always and forever, gay marriage will be wrong.
First of all, what are you against?

Are you against gays and lesbians marrying in your (probably Christian) church?

In which case thats a matter for the couples church or place of worship to decide. There is more than one religion in the world, you know? My religion fully supports me marrying a partner of the same sex.

Or

Are you against any form of gay equal rights/civil ceremony - something legal so that partners have the right to adopt, claim pension benefits, basically, the perks of being a citizen of the USA? So the state at least recognises a committed, stable relationship, with all the legal requirements and benefits.

Is it just something you don't want happening because of the bible (its usually Christians and Muslims who hate us), and you'd be fine with it outside the church on a legal non-religious basis, or are you a complete homophobe who thinks people like myself shouldn't have rights?

Before you answer, I'm guessing you're based in the US, luckily I'm from a country with equal rights. You're a bit behind.

[Kardashian]

Perhaps you should choose something one does not have control over like ethnicity for your analogy. Religion is a personal choice for the most part.

Most people are born Jewish.

So, I understand what he's conveying.

[yg17]

Why are gay men serving as judges of women's beauty pageants anyway? Are they really in a best position to assess feminine appeal and physical attractiveness? Just asking.

A group of straight guys would vote for the one with the biggest knockers. I think Perez is probably more suited to judge than I am, because I would probably vote for the biggest tits :D

[iGary]

Didn't Obama say that he believes marriage should be between a man and a woman?

Yes, yes he did.

[freeny]

Most people are born Jewish.

So, I understand what he's conveying.

As well as I, hence "for the most part".

[mgguy]

Most people are born Jewish.

I think you mean that most Jews are born Jewish. But that isn't true either. You are born to parents that may believe in the Jewish faith, but you are not born Jewish biologically.

[Kardashian]

I think you mean that most Jews are born Jewish. But that isn't true either. You are born to parents that may believe in the Jewish faith, but you are not born Jewish biologically.

It was implied that I was referring to people of the Jewish faith. Don't try and make an argument.

And sorry, but you're wrong.

If you are born to a Jewish mother, even someone who does not actively practice Jewish customs, you are classed as Jewish.

Please, don't argue.

[.Andy]

Why are gay men serving as judges of women's beauty pageants anyway? Are they really in a best position to assess feminine appeal and physical attractiveness? Just asking.
One can only judge inherent beauty if there is the potential to have sex with it.

[skunk]

One can only judge inherent beauty if there is the potentially have sex with it.Well, I must say that's what I thought when I saw the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Ineffable indeed.

[yg17]

It was implied that I was referring to people of the Jewish faith. Don't try and make an argument.

And sorry, but you're wrong.

If you are born to a Jewish mother, even someone who does not actively practice Jewish customs, you are classed as Jewish.

Please, don't argue.

I was born to Jewish parents and I most certainly do not classify myself as Jewish, and if asked what religion I am, I will not answer "Jewish"

[mgguy]

Didn't Obama say that he believes marriage should be between a man and a woman?

Yes, yes he did.


Yes he did say that, as quoted in my earlier post:

Obama: I believe marriage is between a man and a women. I am not in favor of gay marriage.

[NT1440]

It was implied that I was referring to people of the Jewish faith. Don't try and make an argument.

And sorry, but you're wrong.

If you are born to a Jewish mother, even someone who does not actively practice Jewish customs, you are classed as Jewish.

Please, don't argue.

You may be called Jewish, but that doesnt mean u have to follow the Jewish religion.

[NT1440]

Yes he did say that, as quoted in my earlier post:

Obama:

What does it matter if Obama said it or not, whoever says it is completely ignorant in this regard.

[Kardashian]

You may be called Jewish, but that doesnt mean u have to follow the Jewish religion.

I didn't say you did.

[leekohler]

Yes he did say that, as quoted in my earlier post:

Obama:

Yep- he said it to get elected. But if you think he'd stand in the way of equal marriage rights, I don't think he would. I also doubt he'd push for a Constitutional amendment. he's also said he wants to get rid of DOMA and DADT. I'm pretty happy with that.

[.Andy]

Yes he did say that, as quoted in my earlier post:
And as has been pointed out he holds similar antiquated and flat out ridiculous views as this miss usa contestant. They are both morans on this issue. Although perhaps only one was intelligent enough to tell the judges what they wanted to hear.....

[NT1440]

I didn't say you did.

Yes but we were talking about religion at the time, not a classification.

[NT1440]

Yep- he said it to get elected. But if you think he'd stand in the way of equal marriage rights, you're wrong.

In fact, he specifically said even then that he would not support bans on gay marriage.

[Kardashian]

I was born to Jewish parents and I most certainly do not classify myself as Jewish, and if asked what religion I am, I will not answer "Jewish"

I understood that from your previous posts.

However, in the eyes of Jewish law, you are still classed as a Jew.

A bit silly, really. You didn't ask to be - but you are. Apparently.

[bruinsrme]

And as has been pointed out he holds similar antiquated and flat out ridiculous views as this miss usa contestant. They are both morans on this issue. Although perhaps only one was intelligent enough to tell the judges what they wanted to hear.....

So they are morons because they have different beliefs/views on same sex marriage?

[Kardashian]

I have no idea who this man is, but he repulses me after the first 15 seconds.

Listen (http://mediamatters.org/countyfair/200904220021?show=1), it has to be heard to be believed

[mgguy]

It was implied that I was referring to people of the Jewish faith. Don't try and make an argument.

And sorry, but you're wrong.

If you are born to a Jewish mother, even someone who does not actively practice Jewish customs, you are classed as Jewish.

Please, don't argue.
OK, then I'll agree with you.

I can see how someone who is born a Jew may be discriminated against based on that classification alone, which is clearly wrong. However, if someone professes to believe in Jewish principles, or any other religious dogma, then it is fair to challenge them on those beliefs because these are thoughts that the individual chooses to have and to propound. People are free to believe whatever they want, but others are free to take exception to those beliefs. Religious beliefs should not be taken off the examination table just because they are religious in nature, in my opinion.

[.Andy]

So they are morons because they have different beliefs/views on same sex marriage?
Yes. I consider that quite a mild slur against people whose beliefs discriminate against others on the basis of an intrinsic quality.

[Prof.]

Considering that those girls' IQ is prolly below 90, I don't care what any of their opinions are. All they know how to do is smile, strut, tan and throw up. Nothing more. They are a waste of human life.

[Iscariot]

So they are morons because they have different beliefs/views on same sex marriage?

They are not morons for specifically holding different views, but for believing that those views entitle them to impress their worldview beyond their own doors.

[NT1440]

Considering that those girls' IQ is prolly below 90, I don't care what any of their opinions are. All they know how to do is smile, strut, tan and throw up. Nothing more. They are a waste of human life.

I agree with all but the underlined.

[Queso]

Gay marriage is wrong. It's wrong today. It's going to be wrong tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. Always and forever, gay marriage will be wrong.
A post which summarises exactly why those who are anti gay marriage are losing the argument.

"It's wrong, and......erm......erm......it's wrong" isn't a valid logical position, something they haven't quite worked out yet.

[Prof.]

I wonder what they look like withOUT their makeup. :eek:

[mgguy]

Considering that those girls' IQ is prolly below 90, I don't care what any of their opinions are. All they know how to do is smile, strut, tan and throw up. Nothing more. They are a waste of human life.
How do you know what their IQs are? Do you have any evidence that their IQs are really low? You really have no idea what their lives and talents are like outside this competition. I also wouldn't call it a waste of a human life; they are all very young and have many years ahead to accomplish great things. Don't write them off so early.

[bruinsrme]

Yes. I consider that quite a mild slur against people whose beliefs discriminate against others on the basis of an intrinsic quality.

imagine if you were judged negatively for your opinion on what some deem as an institution.

Personally I couldn't care less about being pro/con same sex marriage. I am a big hit with a lot of my wife's friends that are gay.

If asked to vote on it my decision would be based on the IDGAS factor and left blank.

[Prof.]

Don't write them off so early.
Why? They obviously loved being judged - so i'm judging them.

[.Andy]

imagine if you were judged negatively for your opinion on what some deem as an institution.
If it was an arbitrary, irrational, indefensible position I'd deserve it.

Not all opinions are equal. One has the right to hold opinions. But that doesn't mean that they can't be called on them. Being deluded that marriage is something unique of american-breed christianity if demonstrably bogus.

[leekohler]

imagine if you were judged negatively for your opinion on what some deem as an institution.

Oh well. Having opinions and expressing them means you're going to be judged by them. That's life, man. And yes, marriage is an institution and a right.


Personally I couldn't care less about being pro/con same sex marriage. I am a big hit with a lot of my wife's friends that are gay.

If asked to vote on it my decision would be based on the IDGAS factor and left blank.

I don't give a s*** if you're able to marry either then. If your rights come up for a vote, I'll just leave it blank because of the IDGAS factor. Cool?

This is one gay man you're not a hit with.

[.Andy]

This is one gay man you're not a hit with.
This sentence is wonderful :D!

[leekohler]

This sentence is wonderful :D!

Yeah well, there's one in every crowd. :(

[Burnsey]

Well- this is interesting. I'm certainly no fan of Perez Hilton, but I certainly understand why he did what he did. Substitute the word "gay" for "jew" or "catholic" and see how that sounds.



http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/ny-etmiss2112675670apr20,0,2777847.story

How would you substitute "Jew" or "Catholic" here?

[mactastic]

Well, I must say that's what I thought when I saw the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Ineffable indeed.
So that's where those stains came from... Well done!

[brad.c]

How would you substitute "Jew" or "Catholic" here?
Are you being obtuse?

[leekohler]

How would you substitute "Jew" or "Catholic" here?

It's pretty easy. I'm not going to do it for you. Figure it out.

[Burnsey]

Are you saying that what she said is like saying "marriage should only be between a Jew and a Jew"?

[NT1440]

Are you saying that what she said is like saying "marriage should only be between a Jew and a Jew"?

You could say that. What if she HAD said that? the outrage would be enormous. Instead, she basically bitchslapped homosexuals on the nation level and recieved applause for it.

[brad.c]

Are you saying that what she said is like saying "marriage should only be between a Jew and a Jew"?

No, it's more like "Jews shouldn't get married". It's a denial of basic rights, rather than a promotion for xenophobia.

[leekohler]

Are you saying that what she said is like saying "marriage should only be between a Jew and a Jew"?

Christ. If she talked about Jews or Catholics the way she talked about gays, she would have been booed. Is that clear enough for you?

[yg17]

Christ. If she talked about Jews or Catholics the way she talked about gays, she would have been booed. Is that clear enough for you?

Well, if she talked that way about Jews, there would be at least one person appluading. My grandfather is throwing a fit that my sister is engaged to someone who's not Jewish ;)

[iJohnHenry]

He, more than anyone, should know that the religion of any issue from such a union will be raised as Jews. :D

It springs from the Mother, not the Father. What a calamity for male-dominated societies. :eek:

[sycho]

Well, if she talked that way about Jews, there would be at least one person appluading. My grandfather is throwing a fit that my sister is engaged to someone who's not Jewish ;)

Was he throwing a fit about you driving a GTI? :p All my friends make fun of my Jewish friend for loving my VR6. ;) But then again most of them make fun of me for being gay.... But I have the fast car so I win.

[brad.c]

Was he throwing a fit about you driving a GTI? :p All my friends make fun of my Jewish friend for loving my VR6. ;) But then again most of them make fun of me for being gay.... But I have the fast car so I win.

Oh the dangerous siren call of German engineering.

[yg17]

Was he throwing a fit about you driving a GTI? :p

He doesn't know I have a VW just for the simple fact that I don't talk to him (he's treated our family like crap and I don't want to have anything to do with him) but yes, he would throw a fit :D

[mgguy]

You could say that. What if she HAD said that? the outrage would be enormous. Instead, she basically bitchslapped homosexuals on the nation level and recieved applause for it.

Of COURSE the outrage would have been enormous if she had said Jews should not be allowed to marry or that they should only be allowed to marry other Jews. The vast majority of people do not agree with that. On the other hand, like it or not, the overwhelming majority of people in this country also believe, as does Obama, that marriage should be only between a man and a woman. Hence, she did not get booed for saying so.

[leekohler]

Of COURSE the outrage would have been enormous if she had said Jews should not be allowed to marry or that they should only be allowed to marry other Jews. The vast majority of people do not agree with that. On the other hand, like it or not, the overwhelming majority of people in this country also believe, as does Obama, that marriage should be only between a man and a woman. Hence, she did not get booed for saying so.

Doesn't matter. The comparison is valid. It should not be acceptable to advocate for taking rights away form a group of people-regardless or whether or not they are popular.

[NT1440]

Doesn't matter. The comparison is valid. It should not be acceptable to advocate for taking rights away form a group of people-regardless or whether or not they are popular.

Exactly. The will of the majority should never interfere with the rights of the minority. Its one of the pitfalls of democracy.

[mactastic]

Homosexuals are the Jews for Miss California's ovens.

[fridgeymonster3]

Personally, I don't feel she deserves all of this criticism. She was asked a question and she had three options: 1.) tell the truth and express her personal beliefs, 2.) give the answer she thought would garner the highest judges vote, or 3.) delicately sidestepped the question as best as possible without giving a definitive answer either way. As much as I disagree with her belief and am saddened by her narrowmindness, I feel she answered the question in the correct manner. Here's why.

Option 2 involves intentionally lying. I thought people were raised to tell the truth? Would Perez Hilton have rather she blatantly lied just to achieve her goal of winning the crown? By asking his question, he was only looking for the "correct" answer, not the truth. Option 3 is the way the politicians act. Skirt around the question without a direct answer. Congressional Democrats, and our president and VP, are pathetic when they say states should have the power to decide not the federal government. Basically, they don't want to have to deal with it or champion gay marriage. All constitutional arguments aside, it doesn't matter who has the power because very few politicians have the moral integrity to outwardly support gay marriage - too afraid if their electorate will re-elect them.

Option 1 is the route she needed to take; whether any of us agree or not she stayed true to herself and her beliefs, no matter how bigoted they seem. And don't come to me and say she needed to be politically correct. Yes she's from California, but anyone forget we just passed prop 8 with a 52-48 vote? Therefore, if she's represnting her state, she gave the answer we collectivel gave (not me...that prop is ********). Furthermore, even a higher percentage of Americans believe marriage is between a man and a women (again ridiculous). She was giving a majority opinion, which in itself is extremely sad and is a further indication of how far our nation needs to progress in terms of equal rights.

Instead of constant criticism, insults, and overall degrading of her, this is the perfect time for a gay marriage advocacy group to contact her. Just to talk to her and discuss her beliefs. Ask her why my love for someone else is not legalize, not accepted, not protected? How is what I feel any less then what she feels? Why those utmost feelings deep down when I kiss someone isn't "real". This is a time to try and educate people not criticize.

P.S. Sorry for my spelling or grammar - my iPhone typing is pathetic!

[mactastic]

Personally, I don't feel she deserves all of this criticism. She was asked a question and she had three options: 1.) tell the truth and express her personal beliefs, 2.) give the answer she thought would garner the highest judges vote, or 3.) delicately sidestepped the question as best as possible without giving a definitive answer either way. As much as I disagree with her belief and am saddened by her narrowmindness, I feel she answered the question in the correct manner. Here's why.

Option 2 involves intentionally lying. I thought people were raised to tell the truth? Would Perez Hilton have rather she blatantly lied just to achieve her goal of winning the crown? By asking his question, he was only looking for the "correct" answer, not the truth. Option 3 is the way the politicians act. Skirt around the question without a direct answer. Congressional Democrats, and our president and VP, are pathetic when they say states should have the power to decide not the federal government. Basically, they don't want to have to deal with it or champion gay marriage. All constitutional arguments aside, it doesn't matter who has the power because very few politicians have the moral integrity to outwardly support gay marriage - too afraid if their electorate will re-elect them.

Option 1 is the route she needed to take; whether any of us agree or not she stayed true to herself and her beliefs, no matter how bigoted they seem. And don't come to me and say she needed to be politically correct. Yes she's from California, but anyone forget we just passed prop 8 with a 52-48 vote? Therefore, if she's represnting her state, she gave the answer we collectivel gave (not me...that prop is ********). Furthermore, even a higher percentage of Americans believe marriage is between a man and a women (again ridiculous). She was giving a majority opinion, which in itself is extremely sad and is a further indication of how far our nation needs to progress in terms of equal rights.

Instead of constant criticism, insults, and overall degrading of her, this is the perfect time for a gay marriage advocacy group to contact her. Just to talk to her and discuss her beliefs. Ask her why my love for someone else is not legalize, not accepted, not protected? How is what I feel any less then what she feels? Why those utmost feelings deep down when I kiss someone isn't "real". This is a time to try and educate people not criticize.

P.S. Sorry for my spelling or grammar - my iPhone typing is pathetic!
I actually applaud her for her honesty. Where I think she's made a mistake is in attempting to blame her loss on this answer, as if she's being persecuted for her Christian beliefs.

[Zombie Acorn]

Homosexuals are the Jews for Miss California's ovens.

Most religious people do not believe in marriage between gays while still being tolerant of their sexual preference. Not quite like the holocaust.

[mactastic]

Most religious people do not believe in marriage between gays while still being tolerant of their sexual preference. Not quite like the holocaust.
That sound you just heard was my post going right over your head... :rolleyes:

[Delta608]

I actually applaud her for her honesty. Where I think she's made a mistake is in attempting to blame her loss on this answer, as if she's being persecuted for her Christian beliefs.


Isnt she...?? :confused:

[NT1440]

Isnt she...?? :confused:

Losing a crown and title are not persecution by any means. She was losing well before the Q & A session anyway.

[SLC Flyfishing]

They are not morons for specifically holding different views, but for believing that those views entitle them to impress their worldview beyond their own doors.

So giving an honest answer is to be considered impressing ones worldview beyond their own doors?

What if she'd been supportive of gay marriage and said it, would that classify as her impressing her worldview beyond her own door?

Is "impressing ones worldview beyond ones door" Iscariot code for "I don't like what she said"?

SLC

[Zombie Acorn]

That sound you just heard was my post going right over your head... :rolleyes:

Sounded like a reference to Miss California's personal "holocaust" to me aka mountain out of a mole hill.

[mactastic]

Isnt she...?? :confused:
Yes, she is attempting to play the persecution card when all accounts indicate that she wasn't in a position to win this even before her disastrous attempt to elucidate her -- and the rest of the nation's -- opposition to gay marriage.

[mactastic]

Sounded like a reference to Miss California's personal "holocaust" to me aka mountain out of a mole hill.
Perhaps someone with a high-speed connection could find our good friend here the image that will show him what my parody was referencing? I don't feel like spending the time on my dial-up connection...

[Zombie Acorn]

Perhaps someone with a high-speed connection could find our good friend here the image that will show him what my parody was referencing? I don't feel like spending the time on my dial-up connection...

My bad, didn't realize you were referencing some internet joke.

[obeygiant]

I don't feel like spending the time on my dial-up connection...

You're on dial-up? Thats soo punk rawk.

[Iscariot]

Iscariot code for "I don't like what she said"?

I've not posted my opinion of what she said, so assuming that "I don't like [it]" is more than a bit of a stretch.
So giving an honest answer is to be considered impressing ones worldview beyond their own doors?

My comment draws an explicit line between belief and action as grounds for determining whether someone can be deemed a "moron" to borrow the original phrase. You're really reaching for this one… do you have any arguments to offer besides men made entirely of straw, or are you just excited for the next Burning Man (http://www.burningman.com/)?

[hulugu]

I actually applaud her for her honesty. Where I think she's made a mistake is in attempting to blame her loss on this answer, as if she's being persecuted for her Christian beliefs.

This seems to be a very important question that no one covering this story has asked, while Prejean insists it's true, is it really?

Irrespective of his orientation, I don't know why we will it fitting to have a celebrity gossip columnist as a judge of American ideals expressed in womanhood? Not that I care, because I have a cynical view of the competition to begin with. I'm just curious if anyone else thinks it odd having him on the panel?

Interesting question. Other than his "celebrity" I can't really imagine why, but then I've never been a fan of the flibbertigibbet.

Miss USA is from my hometown. A local TV station devoted an episode to get to know her before the pageant. She's a nice, well spoken young lady. And she was beating Miss California in every category up to and including the Q&A session....

Can you show a link for this? I'd really like to know how the judging went so we can take this story and leave it on the trash-heap where it belongs.

[jav6454]

Honestly, beauty pageants are a waste of time. Sheer vanity IMO. Also, if you are going to question your runner-ups, let them be questioned about actual facts rather than subjective or cultural/religious dependent statements.

Something like, "would you support green technology seeing how CO2 emissions are heating Earth?" would have been fine, facts and is also asking for your opinion in a rather crucial matter; best of all it's not subjective. I have nothing against gays/lesbians forming couples; however, touching a sensitive subject as gay marriage right now is just wrong considering the candidate's background not supporting such unions.

The US is a great mix of cultures, religions and beliefs. Stirring that mix to help a minority is not the greatest thing to do when trying to get something approved and when you have done nothing in educating people first. Teach people how that minority deserves respect and their own rights, now there is something that will get your group noticed and hence people will be more understanding.

The judge should have realized that, if he wanted a better answer in respect to everything around him, then a beauty pageant is not the best place to ask. That was inappropriate of him in a sense to put her on a spotlight knowing her background. Did she respond the best way? In her views probably so, in many other's views probably so or probably not. One thing for sure, this action has sure stirred up things a bit... again.

[leekohler]

Honestly, beauty pageants are a waste of time. Sheer vanity IMO. Also, if you are going to question your runner-ups, let them be questioned about actual facts rather than subjective or cultural/religious dependent statements.

Something like, "would you support green technology seeing how CO2 emissions are heating Earth?" would have been fine, facts and is also asking for your opinion in a rather crucial matter; best of all it's not subjective. I have nothing against gays/lesbians forming couples; however, touching a sensitive subject as gay marriage right now is just wrong considering the candidate's background not supporting such unions.

The US is a great mix of cultures, religions and beliefs. Stirring that mix to help a minority is not the greatest thing to do when trying to get something approved and when you have done nothing in educating people first. Teach people how that minority deserves respect and their own rights, now there is something that will get your group noticed and hence people will be more understanding.


Excuse me? We gays have been working extremely hard for decades to educate people about ourselves! What BS thing for you to say! I'm sick of this attitude that we somehow have to become "popular" in order to have the same rights as everyone else.

[MotleyPete]

I do prefer it when bigots are honest though, that way I know where to direct my scorn.

When they disguise their bigotry behind creative language they become harder to spot and I might accidently miss them, which is a waste of perfectly good scorn.

[iGary]

Excuse me? We gays have been working extremely hard for decades to educate people about ourselves!

Exactly, where would fashion be without us? :D

[iJohnHenry]

And Broadway would not exist. :D

[leekohler]

And Broadway would not exist. :D

I wouldn't miss Broadway. ;) I hate showtunes.

[fridgeymonster3]

Excuse me? We gays have been working extremely hard for decades to educate people about ourselves! What BS thing for you to say! I'm sick of this attitude that we somehow have to become "popular" in order to have the same rights as everyone else.

By writing what he did he proved his own point - obviously he hasn't been educated enough on the subject. I have many friends who aren't educated on the rights that gays are denied, and I graduated from one of the most liberal colleges in the US that prided itself on accepting every characteristic of mankind. Now, the overwhelming majority of students supported gay marriage, but once they graduated they needed to educate anyone they could, not to make being gay "popular" but to make the injustices undeniably clear.

Personally, I usually don't care what others believe. So, Miss USA and our President believe marriage is between man and a woman. Good for them, they can choose not to marry the same sex; however, just believing in one antiquated definition doesn't make it right to deny equal rights. Many people disapprove of interracial marriages, yet that's protected. Whether someone believes gay relationships, gay sex, and/or gay marriage is wrong, against nature, or against their religious beliefs doesn't justify persecution. Using religious beliefs to persecute someone who is different from yourself is the greatest sin of all.

[obeygiant]

My comment draws an explicit line between belief and action as grounds for determining whether someone can be deemed a "moron" to borrow the original phrase. You're really reaching for this one… do you have any arguments to offer besides men made entirely of straw, or are you just excited for the next Burning Man (http://www.burningman.com/)?

Wow, your comment is so post-modern. I nearly thought we were back at the Haçienda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Haçienda).

[leekohler]

By writing what he did he proved his own point - obviously he hasn't been educated enough on the subject. I have many friends who aren't educated on the rights that gays are denied, and I graduated from one of the most liberal colleges in the US that prided itself on accepting every characteristic of mankind. Now, the overwhelming majority of students supported gay marriage, but once they graduated they needed to educate anyone they could, not to make being gay "popular" but to make the injustices undeniably clear.

We've been talking about it for a long time. Problem is- we can't make people listen.

[jav6454]

Excuse me? We gays have been working extremely hard for decades to educate people about ourselves! What BS thing for you to say! I'm sick of this attitude that we somehow have to become "popular" in order to have the same rights as everyone else.

You don't have to be popular. But forcing rights ain't right either, it just makes you the same as them (trying to impose something).

What I meant, and maybes it is because it was late at night, is that winning the country over with great things (yes, fashion is good, but go beyon that) rather than winning over with laws and law suits that may not end up right might get the better view of people.

I don't have anything against gay marriages so don't get me wrong, everyone should be entitled to do as they please within the law.

By writing what he did he proved his own point - obviously he hasn't been educated enough on the subject. I have many friends who aren't educated on the rights that gays are denied, and I graduated from one of the most liberal colleges in the US that prided itself on accepting every characteristic of mankind. Now, the overwhelming majority of students supported gay marriage, but once they graduated they needed to educate anyone they could, not to make being gay "popular" but to make the injustices undeniably clear.

Personally, I usually don't care what others believe. So, Miss USA and our President believe marriage is between man and a woman. Good for them, they can choose not to marry the same sex; however, just believing in one antiquated definition doesn't make it right to deny equal rights. Many people disapprove of interracial marriages, yet that's protected. Whether someone believes gay relationships, gay sex, and/or gay marriage is wrong, against nature, or against their religious beliefs doesn't justify persecution. Using religious beliefs to persecute someone who is different from yourself is the greatest sin of all.

Also meant some of this written here. I am also educated in the subject. Have a gay friend and gay family member.

[mactastic]

You're on dial-up? Thats soo punk rawk.
Hopefully will be changing soon. Very soon. 5 years in the dark ages is plenty for me, thanks.

Something like, "would you support green technology seeing how CO2 emissions are heating Earth?" would have been fine, facts and is also asking for your opinion in a rather crucial matter; best of all it's not subjective.
Oh man... I'd probably start watching these things if they started asking these women questions like that!

Did I mention that I also enjoy watching trains wreck? :D

You don't have to be popular. But forcing rights ain't right either, it just makes you the same as them (trying to impose something).

What I meant, and maybes it is because it was late at night, is that winning the country over with great things (yes, fashion is good, but go beyon that) rather than winning over with laws and law suits that may not end up right might get the better view of people.

I don't have anything against gay marriages so don't get me wrong, everyone should be entitled to do as they please within the law.
If the bulk of people were supportive of gay marriages, we wouldn't have this problem. It's the very nature of the "tyranny of the majority" that the oppressed class is in the minority.

Gay marriage is going to make a majority of the people unhappy, just as interracial marriages made a majority of the people unhappy in previous generations. That's the nature of struggles for equality.

You also make an equivalence between "forcing" people to accept gay marriage and denying homosexuals full legal equality. This is absolutely false. Homosexuals are not forcing anything on anyone. They are simply fighting not to have religious views of marriage forced upon them. There is a world of difference between the two.

[jav6454]

Oh man... I'd probably start watching these things if they started asking these women questions like that!

Did I mention that I also enjoy watching trains wreck? :D



Lol:D



If the bulk of people were supportive of gay marriages, we wouldn't have this problem. It's the very nature of the "tyranny of the majority" that the oppressed class is in the minority.

Gay marriage is going to make a majority of the people unhappy, just as interracial marriages made a majority of the people unhappy in previous generations. That's the nature of struggles for equality.

You also make an equivalence between "forcing" people to accept gay marriage and denying homosexuals full legal equality. This is absolutely false. Homosexuals are not forcing anything on anyone. They are simply fighting not to have religious views of marriage forced upon them. There is a world of difference between the two.

Yes, I know it sounds a bit weird how I worded it. Bolded means what I meant in that paragraph

[leekohler]

You don't have to be popular. But forcing rights ain't right either, it just makes you the same as them (trying to impose something).

What I meant, and maybes it is because it was late at night, is that winning the country over with great things (yes, fashion is good, but go beyon that) rather than winning over with laws and law suits that may not end up right might get the better view of people.

But you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if people like us or not. Have you forgotten history and the whole civil rights movement? Did blacks wait til everyone was "educated" before they stood up for their rights? Or did they win with court decisions?

And who's forcing rights? How is demanding to be treated equally under the law (which is guaranteed by our constitution) forcing our views on anyone? Are we forcing everyone to marry someone of the same sex? Are we forcing churches to marry gays? NO.

[jav6454]

But you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if people like us or not. Have you forgotten history and the whole civil rights movement? Did blacks wait til everyone was "educated" before they stood up for their rights? Or did they win with court decisions?

And who's forcing rights? How is demanding to be treated equally under the law (which is guaranteed by our constitution) forcing our views on anyone? Are we forcing everyone to marry someone of the same sex? Are we forcing churches to marry gays? NO.

Correct correct and correct. I see how this is going. No one is forcing, except radical religious groups trying to force.

And yes, my argument is flawed, I have to accept that, which is why I made a small amend to it later in a post. Also, see how much TV has portrayed the gay culture on a positive side. You can't deny that has help bring support for gays (also negatives, but more positives).

I know gays will gain their rights, that is something that will happen whether religious like it or not.

[Greenhoe]

Im surprised someone who is 21 is still living in the last century, i honestly feel sorry for her, she's missing out on so much in life having such a narrow mind.

So saying your belief on a topic means you have a a narrow mind? I guess every liberal on this forum or conservative has a narrow mind because they believe different then you?

Your in the same category as Perez Hilton calling this girl a B***H just because she doesn't believe what you believe.

[brad.c]

Are we forcing churches to marry gays? NO.

Exactly. There are churches and other facilities ready and willing to perform the service. There's also plenty more people who will join in the celebration.

The idea that the real rights of one segment of society are being squashed by the imagined dangers to another is incredible.

Also, see how much TV has portrayed the gay culture on a positive side. You can't deny that has help bring support for gays (also negatives, but more positives).

Showing additional lifestyles (I'm not a fan of the term "alternate") as real people is a necessity for growing empathy for any unfamiliar group of people. It is a form of education that helps to battle the ignorance that is the foundation of intolerance.

Growing up in a small town in the 70s and 80s, I wasn't exposed to any cultures other than my own. I only expanded my world view when I moved to Toronto and met a range of good people, that I was able to face my own intolerances. A close friend of mine came out of the closet after we moved apart, and while I regret that he felt the need to keep that part of his life a secret from so many people, I confess I don't know how I would have reacted before I moved away.

This is part of why I believe Miss California, and every person who advocates that some people are less enabled than others, need to walk a few miles in somebody elses shoes.

[leekohler]

Your in the same category as Perez Hilton calling this girl a B***H just because she doesn't believe what you believe.

No- he called her a bitch because she wants to take away his rights.

[Tilpots]

Can you show a link for this? I'd really like to know how the judging went so we can take this story and leave it on the trash-heap where it belongs.

It wasn't where I originally found it (http://globalbeauties.com/blog/), but I believe this wiki page is accurate:


Final Competition Scores (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_USA_2009)
[hide]State ↓ Swimsuit ↓ Evening Gown ↓
North Carolina 9.198 (1) 9.470 (1)
California 9.033 (3) 9.275 (2)
Arizona 9.092 (2) 9.189 (3)
Utah 8.851 (5) 8.849 (5)
Kentucky 8.963 (4) 9.047 (4)
Texas 8.548 (7) 8.694 (6)
Tennessee 8.442 (9) 8.578 (7)
Arkansas 8.704 (6) 8.419 (8)
South Carolina 8.402 (10) 8.335 (9)
West Virginia 8.475 (8) 8.296 (10)
Virginia 8.199 (11)
Minnesota 8.150 (12)
Georgia 7.946 (13)
Idaho 7.800 (14)
Connecticut 7.797 (15)

[hulugu]

Thanks Tilpots!

So, basically Prejean was already going to lose, but now she gets to be a righty culture-war hero.


Oh the poor thing.

[leekohler]

So, basically Prejean was already going to lose, but now she gets to be a righty culture-war hero.

Exactly- she wanted attention, and she got it. Now she's getting more than the winner.

[Jack Flash]

No- he called her a bitch because she wants to take away his rights.

As much as I am in defense of gay marriage, calling someone a bitch because they aren't convinced isn't helping the cause.

It was an unfair question to begin with, but complicated by her sloppy answer. If she had said 'I believe in heterosexual marriage as the only legitimate form of marriage, yet the state does not have to share my opinion' would that be permissible to you?

[leekohler]

As much as I am in defense of gay marriage, calling someone a bitch because they aren't convinced isn't helping the cause.

Oh well. Guess what? We're human too.

It was an unfair question to begin with, but complicated by her sloppy answer. If she had said 'I believe in same sex marriage as the only legitimate form of marriage, yet the state does not have to share my opinion' would that be permissible to you?

Huh? Why would she say same sex marriage is the only legitimate form? I'm confused. :confused:

[Jack Flash]

Huh? Why would she say same sex marriage is the only legitimate form? I'm confused. :confused:

Hah my mistake. Freudian slip because I believe same sex marriage to be legitimate, I suppose. :) At least you know I'm not pretending.

[mactastic]

Thanks Tilpots!

So, basically Prejean was already going to lose, but now she gets to be a righty culture-war hero.


Oh the poor thing.
She's so oppressed...

[Queso]

She's so oppressed...
Properly persecuted. It's the days of Nero all over again.

[hulugu]

She's so oppressed...


ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?

[anjinha]

ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?

Good one. :D

[Gray-Wolf]

I support her. Nuff said.

[ZiggyPastorius]

I support her. Nuff said.

Of course you do.

[63dot]

She's from my state, and of all things, one of the only people that I know of from my state that thinks this way. What a crying shame to Cali. Yes, it very possibly cost her the crown.

[mactastic]

I support her. Nuff said.
Pathetic argument. 'Nuff said.

[mactastic]

I support her. Nuff said.
Pathetic argument. 'Nuff said.

[hulugu]

I support her. Nuff said.

I don't know what you're supporting.

[NT1440]

I don't know what you're supporting.

Isnt it obvious? hes her bra. I know alot of guys who which they could support her as well:p

Joking aside i still think shes a bitch.

[Malfoy]

I can't believe the hyporcisy that's overflowing in this thread towards Miss Cali. God forbid (oh snap I referenced God:rolleyes: ) that she was asked a loaded question and gave an answer she believed and not what Hilton wanted to hear.

This is normally my favorite board to post on despite the obvious liberal leaning and obvious mac fanboyism, but lately the outright disrespect/cruelty to anyone who doesn't have the same views as some of you is just uncalled for.

Yea, I know, I don't have to post here or read it..etc... etc. Silly me though likes to read diff opinions, just preferably without all the nastiness.

[NT1440]

No problem with her disrespecting views on homosexuals rights tho right?

thought so

[.Andy]

^^^^snap^^^^

the outright disrespect/cruelty to anyone who doesn't have the same views as some of you is just uncalled for.
I agree. Gay marriage should be allowed irrespective of the bigots.

[NT1440]

^^^^snap^^^^




Thats how we do it up here in the PRSI:p

[Malfoy]

No problem with her disrespecting views on homosexuals rights tho right?

thought so

It's not a disrespecting view. The question asked of marriage, not unions or other words someone might want to use. It's like asking should polygamy be allowed and recognized by all 50 states? Is saying no being completely disrespectful of polygamist?

If you don't agree that the 15 year old girl and the 30 year old man in Utah should be allowed to marry spitting on their religion?

She doesn't agree with it. She didn't say that its perverse and that people who do it are dirty or anything else.

The people in this thread are calling her thinking last century among other things. You don't have to like her like you don't have to like anyone else who has an opinion different than yours, but to attack the person behind the thought is another issue all together.

[.Andy]

It's not a disrespecting view. The question asked of marriage, not unions or other words someone might want to use. It's like asking should polygamy be allowed and recognized by all 50 states? Is saying no being completely disrespectful of polygamist?
Being gay is something intrinsic to the person. Like race. Polygamy, like religion is something that is chosen, somewhat arbitrarily. You are erroneously trying to equate two completely different concepts.

[Malfoy]

Being gay is something intrinsic to the person. Like race. Polygamy, like religion is something that is chosen, somewhat arbitrarily.

The end result isn't changed though.

Your argument from that (correct me if I'm wrong please) is that gays are entitled to it because they were born gay and polygamist shouldn't be entitled to it because they "chose" it?

[.Andy]

Your argument from that (correct me if I'm wrong please) is that gays are entitled to it because they were born gay and polygamist shouldn't be entitled to it because they "chose" it?
Pretty much. Discrimination based on something intrinsic is abhorrent.

[Malfoy]

Pretty much. Discrimination based on something intrinsic is abhorrent.

To some degree I agree with you. With regards to a man made institution/idea, needless to say we differ on this one.

edit: and thanks for having a civil conversation/squabble with me. This is what I want to see more of :)

[Gelfin]

…she was asked a loaded question and gave an answer she believed and not what Hilton wanted to hear.

You know, in some cases I would actually agree with you, but the way I see it, this was a pageant. If she wanted to defend a position she would have joined the debate team.

The goal in a pageant is not candor or principle or intelligence. It is to make oneself a human objet d'art. The answers one gives in those Q&A sections are to prove that the contestant can hold up her end of the conversation in the sorts of superficially intellectual conversations people have at cocktail parties without compromising her grace, composure, wit and diplomacy. To give a stupid answer is to fail, but so is to give an offensive answer.

The judge had the foresight to anticipate a conservative contestant and offer a challenging question. The contestant did not have the foresight to anticipate a gay judge and prepare a tactful response. Offending the judge is earning a zero. She cannot uphold the ideal she is competing to prove she represents.

I hope it is clear I do not approve of that ideal, but that's the contest she chose to enter.

[anjinha]

I thought this was interesting: Miss California 2003 speaks out (http://perezhilton.com/2009-04-23-words-of-wisdom-4)

[stevento]

The judge had the foresight to anticipate a conservative contestant and offer a challenging question. The contestant did not have the foresight to anticipate a gay judge and prepare a tactful response. Offending the judge is earning a zero. She cannot uphold the ideal she is competing to prove she represents.


The response was tactful. "I think marriage is between a man and a woman."
That's what she said. If she had given a really nasty stupid response, in favor of gay marriage, I bet perez wouldn't have given her a 0!
If she had said "Gay marriage is right and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid" or something like that, I bet she'd be applauded for her bravery.

Why did perez call her a dumb bitch in his blog? because he's offended at her opinion, not the way she said it.

[CorvusCamenarum]

I don't know if this has been asked or not, given that I haven't read through the entire thread, but to me the question that needs asking is how would she have fared had she answered in the opposite way but in the same style. Going off the YouTube clip of her answer, my opinion is that she bungled it regardless of content.

The grand irony in it all is coming from those who are painting her out to be an attention-seeking nobody who's bitter because her feelings got hurt when the exact same thing could be said of Mr. Lavandeira, only he seems to be on the politically correct side of the issue. Miss California, however, is being markedly more graceful; I have yet to see the article or clip where she refers to Mr. Lavandeira using crass and derogatory terms.

[Iscariot]

how would she have fared had she answered in the opposite way but in the same style.

She'd have lost regardless.

[hulugu]

I don't know if this has been asked or not, given that I haven't read through the entire thread, but to me the question that needs asking is how would she have fared had she answered in the opposite way but in the same style...

According to info posted by Tilpots and linking to the wikipedia article, Prejean was already losing.

Going off the YouTube clip of her answer, my opinion is that she bungled it regardless of content.

I agree, she bungled it. I think she was attempting to straddle the fence on this issue, but just couldn't make the rhetorical jump.

The grand irony in it all is coming from those who are painting her out to be an attention-seeking nobody who's bitter because her feelings got hurt when the exact same thing could be said of Mr. Lavandeira, only he seems to be on the politically correct side of the issue. Miss California, however, is being markedly more graceful; I have yet to see the article or clip where she refers to Mr. Lavandeira using crass and derogatory terms.

The fact that she has gone on several different TV shows to state her case that she "was robbed" indicates a certain amount of "attention-seeking." In this case, both her and Lavanderia are wrong. Of course, she has the training to appear graceful, but ultimately she's just as bad as he is and just as determined to become famous without actually doing anything useful.

[Queso]

It's not a disrespecting view. The question asked of marriage, not unions or other words someone might want to use. It's like asking should polygamy be allowed and recognized by all 50 states? Is saying no being completely disrespectful of polygamist?

If you don't agree that the 15 year old girl and the 30 year old man in Utah should be allowed to marry spitting on their religion?

She doesn't agree with it. She didn't say that its perverse and that people who do it are dirty or anything else.

The people in this thread are calling her thinking last century among other things. You don't have to like her like you don't have to like anyone else who has an opinion different than yours, but to attack the person behind the thought is another issue all together.
The reason people are irate with her isn't IMO to do with her answer. Instead it's the victim mentality approach she's now taken to coming second, as if by not agreeing with The Gay Agenda™ she is being persecuted.

It's the standard tactic at the moment. She's being manipulated now by religious and conservative pressure groups, who are desperate to spin the story into something it isn't in order to push the same old lie that they are the ones being denied rights. Either she understands that and is going along with it, in which case she is bigoted, or she's going along with it without fully understanding what she's doing, in which case she's dumb. Either way, by whining and trying to make the whole thing based on something it isn't she looks bad.

[leekohler]

The reason people are irate with her isn't IMO to do with her answer. Instead it's the victim mentality approach she's now taken to coming second, as if by not agreeing with The Gay Agenda™ she is being persecuted.

It's the standard tactic at the moment. She's being manipulated now by religious and conservative pressure groups, who are desperate to spin the story into something it isn't in order to push the same old lie that they are the ones being denied rights. Either she understands that and is going along with it, in which case she is bigoted, or she's going along with it without fully understanding what she's doing, in which case she's dumb. Either way, by whining and trying to make the whole thing based on something it isn't she looks bad.

Bingo! That's exactly what's so irritating. No one even knows who won, but everyone knows who this bimbo is, don't they?

[SLC Flyfishing]

Bingo! That's exactly what's so irritating. No one even knows who won, but everyone knows who this bimbo is, don't they?

Well Perez Hilton isn't exactly helping with that now is he? He seems like a total idiot by the way!

From today's LA Times:

"Hilton continues to replay stories related to the showdown on perezhilton.com and in many interviews. He would like to prove he's an important gay rights champion, but the self-described "Queen of All Media" seems more concerned with ginning up attention and hits for his website.

Serious civil rights activists fighting for equal protection under the law can't possibly want this guy fronting their righteous cause. If he's not hissing that Prejean is a "dumb bitch," he's decorating her picture on his website with a drawing of a penis. (Small solace: Hilton regularly decorates celebrity pics with phallic scribbles.)"

Just what the doctor ordered for the gay rights movement? I'd be more concerned about him than anything a beauty pageant contestant could have ever said.

SLC

[leekohler]

Well Perez Hilton isn't exactly helping with that now is he? He seems like a total idiot by the way!

From today's LA Times:

"Hilton continues to replay stories related to the showdown on perezhilton.com and in many interviews. He would like to prove he's an important gay rights champion, but the self-described "Queen of All Media" seems more concerned with ginning up attention and hits for his website.

Serious civil rights activists fighting for equal protection under the law can't possibly want this guy fronting their righteous cause. If he's not hissing that Prejean is a "dumb bitch," he's decorating her picture on his website with a drawing of a penis. (Small solace: Hilton regularly decorates celebrity pics with phallic scribbles.)"

Just what the doctor ordered for the gay rights movement? I'd be more concerned about him than anything a beauty pageant contestant could have ever said.

SLC

Yes of course. Blame the minority for being angry about being discriminated against. Yep- that's how it works. :rolleyes:

However, I'm not a fan of Hilton. He's kind of our Malcolm X. Oh- and she is a dumb bitch. Sorry- that's the truth whether you're gay or straight. ;)

[mactastic]

You don't have to like her like you don't have to like anyone else who has an opinion different than yours, but to attack the person behind the thought is another issue all together.
I could care less about her personal view of gay marriage; and as I've stated in this thread already, I applaud her for her honesty.

But what is particularly galling is what happened next. Prejean has spent days now suggesting -- without a shred of evidence -- that she lost the competition because specifically because of her response to Hilton's question. It sounds like she grew up in a conservative household; they obviously taught her that gay marriage was unacceptable, but the somehow failed to teach her to take personal responsibility for your actions.

She wasn't going to win whether she said she disapproved of gay marriage, or if she said she absolutely *hearted* gay marriage. Playing the victim card, and attempting to blame others for her loss speaks poorly of her.

And yes, Hilton has been a complete ass about the whole thing. He should be ashamed of his treatment of this woman, and the names he has called her. However, he was well within his rights as a judge of the competition to both ask her the question he did, as well as to base his vote on her response. Those are the rules that Prejean agreed to by entering this objectifying competition.

Personally I would have preferred to see him ask her to compare and contrast the properties of neutrinos versus quarks, and then sit back to watch the ensuing response. :p

[SLC Flyfishing]

Yes of course. Blame the minority for being angry about being discriminated against. Yep- that's how it works. :rolleyes:

However, I'm not a fan of Hilton. He's kind of our Malcolm X. Oh- and she is a dumb bitch. Sorry- that's the truth whether you're gay or straight. ;)

Whoa there Lee, I'm not blaming the minority for anything, he has a right to be upset about her answer, I've never implied differently. But I am blaming him for being petulant and acting like an ass hole over it. There could be so many better ways that he could handle his anger and frustration, but he's reduced himself to acting like a friggin' teenager. He's not going to win any fence sitters over like that, he's just going to knock them backwards to the other side.

That's not exactly the behavior you want to demonstrate to the world when you're fighting for your "rights" is it? I know I was very very turned off by Perez's reaction, and his website reminds me a little too much of something I'd expect a 9th grade girl to throw together; gossip, slander, phallic symbols drawn in people's mouths and all!

SLC

[mactastic]

Whoa there Lee, I'm not blaming the minority for anything, he has a right to be upset about her answer, I've never implied differently. But I am blaming him for being petulant and acting like an ass hole over it. There could be so many better ways that he could handle his anger and frustration, but he's reduced himself to acting like a friggin' teenager. He's not going to win any fence sitters over like that, he's just going to knock them backwards to the other side.

That's not exactly the behavior you want to demonstrate to the world when you're fighting for your "rights" is it? I know I was very very turned off by Perez's reaction, and his website reminds me a little too much of something I'd expect a 9th grade girl to throw together; gossip, slander, phallic symbols drawn in people's mouths and all!

SLC
Nobody has come out of this looking good. Hilton looks like a horses ass for his little poody-fit and diarrhea of the mouth; and Prejean looks like a conniving opportunist for attempting to portray her loss as some kind of persecution of Christians.

It's been amusing to watch who focuses on whose behavior. Very few have focused on the poor behavior of both...

[SLC Flyfishing]

Nobody has come out of this looking good. Hilton looks like a horses ass for his little poody-fit and diarrhea of the mouth; and Prejean looks like a conniving opportunist for attempting to portray her loss as some kind of persecution of Christians.

It's been amusing to watch who focuses on whose behavior. Very few have focused on the poor behavior of both...

I haven't been watching the behavior of either of them. But I saw the article I quoted in today's LA Times while I was looking for the times' take on the Lakers/Jazz game last night. While I'm sure Miss Cali is trying to use this to her advantage, I seriously doubt she's settled on the immature and laughable tactics that Mr. Hilton has.

It's almost embarrasing to see how incredibly stupid his whole site is.

SLC

[brad.c]

...Very few have focused on the poor behavior of both...
That is very true. But of the two miscreants, only one is actually being persecuted. The other is being honest about a belief that is hurtful and discriminatory.

[mactastic]

I haven't been watching the behavior of either of them. But I saw the article I quoted in today's LA Times while I was looking for the times' take on the Lakers/Jazz game last night. While I'm sure Miss Cali is trying to use this to her advantage, I seriously doubt she's settled on the immature and laughable tactics that Mr. Hilton has.

It's almost embarrasing to see how incredibly stupid his whole site is.

SLC
I'd call a faked persecution complex immature and laughable. I'm sure you wouldn't; however. Again, it's fun to watch who criticizes one party while avoiding criticism of the other despite incredibly poor behavior from both.

That is very true. But of the two miscreants, only one is actually being persecuted. The other is being honest about a belief that is hurtful and discriminatory.
I'm not seeing any actual persecution. Care to elaborate?

[brad.c]

I'm not seeing any actual persecution. Care to elaborate?
Are you nit-picking about the individual personalities of this situation, or intentionally ignoring the larger issue of rights?

[mactastic]

Are you nit-picking about the individual personalities of this situation, or intentionally ignoring the larger issue of rights?
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

[obeygiant]

Are you nit-picking about the individual personalities of this situation, or intentionally ignoring the larger issue of rights?

When you say "rights" do you mean the rights of individuals to think and believe what they wish?

[mactastic]

When you say "rights" do you mean the rights of individuals to think and believe what they wish?
When you say individuals, do you mean people?

I'm sorry, I seem to have gotten stuck in a version of the "Who's Line Is It Anyway" game where every question has to be answered with another question. Oh crap, I lose...

[fridgeymonster3]

What I can't understand is why people here continue to incessantly label Miss CA as a dumb bitch. She expressed her opinion, one that nobody here has to agree with, respect, understand, etc. There is no need to insult a person for their ideals or beliefs. I have friends who are extremely conservative and completely against gay marriage, but instead of insulting them, I do my best at cultivating whatever positive attributes I see in them so perhaps, one day, I can get them to see it my way. Labeling someone a "dumb bitch", especially someone who matters so little, is uncalled for.

[brad.c]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
I don't think either Hilton or Ms CA conducted themselves in a professional manner, but as far as persecution goes, she was apparently losing already. But win or lose, professional or not, which of the two is free to go ahead and marry according to love?

When you say "rights" do you mean the rights of individuals to think and believe what they wish?
I guess bigotry is kind of a freedom. Let's all stop and applaud the KKK for keeping up the fight. Now that may sound extremist today, but if religion ever takes the back seat to human equality, our kids might see that the impeded rights of one is an affront to all.

When you say individuals, do you mean people?

I'm sorry, I seem to have gotten stuck in a version of the "Who's Line Is It Anyway" game where every question has to be answered with another question. Oh crap, I lose...
Just don't sing to a member of the studio audience. :)

What I can't understand is why people here continue to incessantly label Miss CA as a dumb bitch. She expressed her opinion, one that nobody here has to agree with, respect, understand, etc. There is no need to insult a person for their ideals or beliefs. I have friends who are extremely conservative and completely against gay marriage, but instead of insulting them, I do my best at cultivating whatever positive attributes I see in them so perhaps, one day, I can get them to see it my way. Labeling someone a "dumb bitch", especially someone who matters so little, is uncalled for.
I think there is a definite distinction between calling her stupid, and stating that her beliefs are based on ignorance. Not that others haven't done so.

[mactastic]

What I can't understand is why people here continue to incessantly label Miss CA as a dumb bitch. She expressed her opinion, one that nobody here has to agree with, respect, understand, etc. There is no need to insult a person for their ideals or beliefs. I have friends who are extremely conservative and completely against gay marriage, but instead of insulting them, I do my best at cultivating whatever positive attributes I see in them so perhaps, one day, I can get them to see it my way. Labeling someone a "dumb bitch", especially someone who matters so little, is uncalled for.
I would agree. I doubt anyone here knows this woman well enough personally to say that she is a "dumb bitch", and it reflects poorly on those who attack her in such a manner.

[freeny]

What I can't understand is why people here continue to incessantly label Miss CA as a dumb bitch. She expressed her opinion, one that nobody here has to agree with, respect, understand, etc. There is no need to insult a person for their ideals or beliefs. I have friends who are extremely conservative and completely against gay marriage, but instead of insulting them, I do my best at cultivating whatever positive attributes I see in them so perhaps, one day, I can get them to see it my way. Labeling someone a "dumb bitch", especially someone who matters so little, is uncalled for.

Because she intolerant and a bigot by definition.
Ironically, those who in turn oppose her opinion are as well ;)

[obeygiant]

What I can't understand is why people here continue to incessantly label Miss CA as a dumb bitch. She expressed her opinion, one that nobody here has to agree with, respect, understand, etc. There is no need to insult a person for their ideals or beliefs. I have friends who are extremely conservative and completely against gay marriage, but instead of insulting them, I do my best at cultivating whatever positive attributes I see in them so perhaps, one day, I can get them to see it my way. Labeling someone a "dumb bitch", especially someone who matters so little, is uncalled for.

Stop being so mature and fair-minded! There is no room for that in sensationalized debate such as this where mouse-clicks equal money.

It's like that old Beef Commercial where Michael Jordan and Larry Bird describe their favorite steak. What Perez Hilton calls a "stupid ****ing bitch" I call smoking hot ultra babe. :D lol

[fridgeymonster3]

Because she intolerant and a bigot by definition.
Ironically, those who oppose her opinion are as well ;)

You are kidding, right? Sure, anyone on this forum can call her intolerant and call her a dumb bitch. But wait, kettle let me introduce you to pot! The definition of intolerant is as follows:

Not tolerating or respecting beliefs, opinions, usages, manners, etc., different from one's own, as in political or religious matters; bigoted.

Everyone here who just calls her a dumb bitch, stupid bitch, worthless to society, etc, are intolerant of her beliefs. They are her beliefs, you don't have to agree with her - nobody does - but people should respect that they are her beliefs, no matter how appalling they are to you. Intolerance goes both ways. What needs to happen, is the courts need to step, just as in the civil rights movement, and rule that gays are being denied equal rights. Then everyone can believe whatever they want, have whatever opinion they want, while gays have equal rights.

[mactastic]

I don't think either Hilton or Ms CA conducted themselves in a professional manner, but as far as persecution goes, she was apparently losing already. But win or lose, professional or not, which of the two is free to go ahead and marry according to love?
Just because I disagree with Prejean's views on gay marriage doesn't mean I think she can't hold them, nor that she can't or shouldn't express them publicly when asked. Remember, Hilton was the one who brought up the subject. He should have had the class to respect her answer, even if he disagreed with it.

My views on gay marriage are pretty well known around here. I'm not ignoring the larger picture at all, but this thread wasn't a debate over gay marriage, but rather over whether Prejean lost the competition because of her answer. It's highly unfair to accuse me of ignoring the larger picture here; particularly if you've ever read any of my other posts relating to gay marriage.

[mactastic]

Everyone here is intolerant of her beliefs.
Excuse me? Disagreement is not intolerance.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Just because I disagree with Prejean's views on gay marriage doesn't mean I think she can't hold them...

I don't think he said he did, either...many people have already said that the issue isn't with her beliefs, but with her expression of persecution afterwards. They also said that they think they're absurd, not that she can't say them. A person has the right to say they hate all black people, and someone else has the right to say that person is a racist douche. (I'm not bringing racism in as a parallel for the specific discussion, only pointing out that not many here (if any) have said she doesn't have the right to not support gay marriage, only that she is ignorant, which is their right to say as much as hers).

[Rt&Dzine]

"The way miss California answered her question lost her the crown, without a doubt!" Perez told Access Hollywood after the pageant. "Never before that I'm aware of has a contestant been booed at Miss USA."

Just to clarify. Hilton said that she lost due to the question.

[FreeState]

"The way miss California answered her question lost her the crown, without a doubt!" Perez told Access Hollywood after the pageant. "Never before that I'm aware of has a contestant been booed at Miss USA."

Just to clarify. Hilton said that she lost due to the question.

Actually it was THE WAY she answered it - meaning she did not speak coherently and was clumsy with her words.

[mactastic]

Just to clarify. Hilton said that she lost due to the question.
And I believe Hilton's claim that she lost because of her answer just as much as I believe Prejean's claim. Both are publicity seekers. The scoring was posted earlier in this thread.

[Rt&Dzine]

Actually it was THE WAY she answered it - meaning she did not speak coherently and was clumsy with her words.

People booed at THE WAY she answered the question? I think it's pretty clear what he meant.

And I believe Hilton's claim that she lost because of her answer just as much as I believe Prejean's claim. Both are publicity seekers. The scoring was posted earlier in this thread.

I'm just pointing out that her claim of not winning because of her answer to "the question" didn't come out of thin air. I'm no fan of hers, but just following the discussion.

Honestly, I was trying to refrain from posting in this thread again, but too much coffee this morning made me talkative. :)

[fridgeymonster3]

Excuse me? Disagreement is not intolerance.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. Calling someone a dumb bitch because of her belief or opinion is intolerant. That's what I meant.

**EDIT: I tried to clarify my original post to express that.

[brad.c]

Just because I disagree with Prejean's views on gay marriage doesn't mean I think she can't hold them, nor that she can't or shouldn't express them publicly when asked. Remember, Hilton was the one who brought up the subject. He should have had the class to respect her answer, even if he disagreed with it.

My views on gay marriage are pretty well known around here. I'm not ignoring the larger picture at all, but this thread wasn't a debate over gay marriage, but rather over whether Prejean lost the competition because of her answer. It's highly unfair to accuse me of ignoring the larger picture here; particularly if you've ever read any of my other posts relating to gay marriage.

True, maybe I should have reread your posts as a whole to define your stance on gay rights, since that is the big picture. Or at least the reason this thread began. I'm sorry to have painted you with a false brush. But if you want to limit the thread to the question of whether or not she was judged on that answer, it should have died at the point where it was shown that she did not. But it didn't, and the discussion grew beyond the small picture.

[Iscariot]

It's been amusing to watch who focuses on whose behavior. Very few have focused on the poor behavior of both...

I don't know why you'd want to focus on either. This really shouldn't be news.

[mactastic]

I don't know why you'd want to focus on either. This really shouldn't be news.
Amen to that.

[brad.c]

Amen to that.

There's that ol' religion again. ;)

[Delta608]

Just because I disagree with Prejean's views on gay marriage doesn't mean I think she can't hold them, nor that she can't or shouldn't express them publicly when asked. Remember, Hilton was the one who brought up the subject. He should have had the class to respect her answer, even if he disagreed with it.


Right on the money......



Then watch Hilton explode in his in-tolerance for the blond b(*&ch but demand extra rights for homosexuals and for people to bend over backward (pun intended) to his own warped views...It was political correctness gone awry having a homosexual guy judging them babes in the first place...!!! WHat was the Don thinking....:p:p:p

[mactastic]

Right on the money......



Then watch Hilton explode in his in-tolerance for the blond b(*&ch but demand extra rights for homosexuals and for people to bend over backward (pun intended) to his own warped views...It was political correctness gone awry having a homosexual guy judging them babes in the first place...!!! WHat was the Don thinking....:p:p:p
Excuse me? Extra rights? Rights that no one but homosexuals would have to get married?

Nice try though...

[.Andy]

It was political correctness gone awry having a homosexual guy judging them babes in the first place...!!!
Why is it political correctness? Why can't a gay guy appreciate beauty?

[NT1440]

It was political correctness gone awry having a homosexual guy judging them babes in the first place...!!! WHat was the Don thinking....:p:p:p

Care to explain? Why cant a homosexual judge a beauty pagent? Is he blind now that hes homosexual?

Or is this supposed to be judged by who gives the judges the biggest hard on?:rolleyes:

[obeygiant]

Why is it political correctness? Why can't a gay guy appreciate beauty?

I posed a similar question one time on the forum.. then I was banned.

I figured no matter what anyone could appreciate (.)(.) s.

[leekohler]

Right on the money......



Then watch Hilton explode in his in-tolerance for the blond b(*&ch but demand extra rights for homosexuals and for people to bend over backward (pun intended) to his own warped views...It was political correctness gone awry having a homosexual guy judging them babes in the first place...!!! WHat was the Don thinking....:p:p:p

Watching you explode with an idiotic homophobic rant is the human race gone awry.

I posed a similar question one time on the forum.. then I was banned.

I figured no matter what anyone could appreciate (.)(.) s.

:confused:

[hulugu]

Right on the money......



Then watch Hilton explode in his in-tolerance for the blond b(*&ch but demand extra rights for homosexuals and for people to bend over backward (pun intended) to his own warped views...It was political correctness gone awry having a homosexual guy judging them babes in the first place...!!! WHat was the Don thinking....:p:p:p

Am I drunk?

I can't unpack this post at all. How was it political correctness to have a gay guy judge a beauty contest? Why the hyphen in intolerance? And, I can't find the pun. I've actually looked up the meaning of the word just to make sure I understood the concept.