Texans -- Do you support your governor's comments flirting with secession? [Archive]

mactastic

Apr 28, 2009, 06:04 PM

On April 15th, in front of a crowd that included people chanting "secession", Texas governor Rick Perry made comments that made it clear that he considered secession from the United States to be an option on the table (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/15/governor-says-texans-want-secede-union-probably-wont/).
"There's a lot of different scenarios," Perry said. "We've got a great union. There's absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot."
On the heels of those comments, a R2K poll was commissioned (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/04/poll-texas-republicans-approve-of-rick-perrys-secession-remarks.php) asking Texans if they supported A) Secession, and B) Perry's comments.
A new Daily Kos/Research 2000 poll finds that Rick Perry's suggestion at the Tea Party last week, that Texas might have to secede from the Union, actually has significant support from his home state's Republican voters.

One question: "Do you think Texas would be better off as an independent nation or as part of the United States of America?" The top-line number is United States 61%, independent nation 35%. Among Republicans, it's a dead-even tie at 48%-48%.

And then there's this one: "Do you approve or disapprove of Governor Rick Perry's suggestion that Texas may need to leave the United States?" The top-line is only 37% approval to 58% disapproval -- but among Texas Republicans, it's 51% approval to 44% disapproval.

We've got several Texans here... what do y'all think about Perry's comments, and about secession from the Obama-led US (obviously there was no talk of secession under Bush)?

leekohler

Apr 28, 2009, 06:06 PM

I say cut 'em loose. Let Mexico have them.

remmy

Apr 28, 2009, 06:09 PM

Not knowing the US laws and politics that well, would it be possible legally? And would the rest of the US do anything to stop this.

mactastic

Apr 28, 2009, 06:09 PM

Let Mexico have them.
Actually the interest would in in becoming a sovereign nation of their own, not in joining with Mexico.

leekohler

Apr 28, 2009, 06:10 PM

Actually the interest would in in becoming a sovereign nation of their own, not in joining with Mexico.

We could encourage Mexico to invade. That would be amusing. Wouldn't be long before Texas came crawling back to us for help.

rhsgolfer33

Apr 28, 2009, 06:14 PM

I think it would be a pretty stupid move, but eh, I suppose I don't have much say seeing as how I'll be in California for at least another year. I was planning on moving to Austin or San Antonio to do a Masters or after I completed a Masters, but if they try to secede I won't be going, unless they don't have an income tax, then I'll be there. ;) Maybe I'll go to the Cayman Islands instead, I hear they're nice, a lot nicer than Texas (not that Austin or San Antonio are bad).

SLC Flyfishing

Apr 28, 2009, 06:15 PM

We could encourage Mexico to invade. That would be amusing. Wouldn't be long before Texas came crawling back to us for help.

Something tells me that there are more guns in Texas, and that they could defend themselves from Mexico pretty well!

freeny

Apr 28, 2009, 06:15 PM

I had a very delicious pulled pork sandwich when i visited the state.
That aside, id like to hear what the natives have to say about secession...

rhsgolfer33

Apr 28, 2009, 06:17 PM

Something tells me that there are more guns in Texas, and that they could defend themselves from Mexico pretty well!

Yeah, I don't think it would be terribly easy. Of course Texas would probably have to conscript a whole bunch of citizens into their military to defend from Mexico. It would be pretty interesting, I mean, they wouldn't even have that many proper automatic weapons. I think if I were Mexico and I wanted part of America I'd probably go after San Diego first. I mean, if you're going to invade you may as well get a nice area to set up camp in first.

leekohler

Apr 28, 2009, 06:18 PM

Something tells me that there are more guns in Texas, and that they could defend themselves from Mexico pretty well!

Mmm-hmm...right. That would be interesting to see. If they secede, I say we build a wall between them and us.

SLC Flyfishing

Apr 28, 2009, 06:25 PM

Mmm-hmm...right. That would be interesting to see. If they secede, I say we build a wall between them and us.

I call dibs on laying the first brick!!!

SLC

Macaddicttt

Apr 28, 2009, 06:30 PM

If Texas wants to secede (again...) I say do the same thing we did last time: invade and put down the rebellion. Only this time, we should try the instigators for treason. I can't wait to see President Norris on trial for treason.

For all the Republican hollering of "you're not patriotic enough," they don't seem all that patriotic in Texas. Nothing says, "I love America," like seceding... :rolleyes:

leekohler

Apr 28, 2009, 06:31 PM

I call dibs on laying the first brick!!!

SLC

I have the second! :) What do you think the new country would be called? It would most definitely be a theocracy, so I'm thinking, "Godland Texas" or something equally hideous. :)

mactastic

Apr 28, 2009, 06:31 PM

Yeah, I don't think it would be terribly easy. Of course Texas would probably have to conscript a whole bunch of citizens into their military to defend from Mexico. It would be pretty interesting, I mean, they wouldn't even have that many proper automatic weapons. I think if I were Mexico and I wanted part of America I'd probably go after San Diego first. I mean, if you're going to invade you may as well get a nice area to set up camp in first.
And Superman could beat up Godzilla.

Frankly, I'm not interested in who would win some fight between Texas and someone else. I'm interested in the politics surrounding secession. My feeling is that Perry is trying to out-crazy Kay Bailout Hutchison, who will be running against him in the Texas governors primary. However, I wouldn't have thought that secession would have appealed beyond the fringe teabagging crowd. Those poll results caught my eye, because that seems like an extremely high number for the "love it or leave it" crowd who ridiculed liberals to no end when they would say they were leaving George W. Bush's America. Yet now there is a pretty significant contingent of them that would support secession.

Now, I understand that Texas has a rather colorful history in this regard, and that many Texans envision themselves as the ultimate in self-sufficient frontiersmen, but an even split among the GOP think Texas would be better off without the rest of the US? Really? Without all the defense dollars that flow into Texas, without the massive NASA presence, etc.?

And then the majority approval of Perry's comments suggest that Hutchison will have a difficult time out-wingnutting Perry, and suggests a difficult road to the governors mansion for her if she is seen as a Washington insider; which I'm sure she is, having been there for quite some time.

kastenbrust

Apr 28, 2009, 06:36 PM

rdowns

Apr 28, 2009, 06:49 PM

Perry seems to love Washington when it comes to paying for hurricanes, wildfires, increased border patrols, to name a few.

fridgeymonster3

Apr 28, 2009, 06:49 PM

It doesn't matter what people want, the reality is: Would it be economically viable? and the answer is: Probably Not.

The only US state that would have any hope of existing as a country, an idependant sovereignty on its own is California, and thats only because if it were a country on its own it would be the 6th wealthiest in the world.

California should secede....we are better then every other state anyways :p. Oh wait, what about our huge debt?! No problem...we can print our own money now to pay our bills! :D

Zombie Acorn

Apr 28, 2009, 07:09 PM

It doesn't matter what people want, the reality is: Would it be economically viable? and the answer is: Probably Not.

The only US state that would have any hope of existing as a country, an idependant sovereignty on its own is California, and thats only because if it were a country on its own it would be the 6th wealthiest in the world.

A majority of their wealth would be lost upon seceding, not to mention an audit of assets to market value would knock them down a few pegs even before they seceded.

chrmjenkins

Apr 28, 2009, 07:19 PM

We could encourage Mexico to invade.

Encourage? They already are and we're dissuading them. ;)

Gelfin

Apr 28, 2009, 07:29 PM

California should secede....we are better then every other state anyways :p. Oh wait, what about our huge debt?! No problem...we can print our own money now to pay our bills! :D

We have eleven and a half million households paying on average around $15,000 in federal taxes, of which California gets back 80 cents on the dollar in federal benefits. Using quick-and-dirty math, we pay around a $34.5 billion annual membership fee to the United States. If California seceded, we wouldn't have a budget deficit.

MacNut

Apr 28, 2009, 07:44 PM

Just curious but what does the constitution say about a state seceding.

SLC Flyfishing

Apr 28, 2009, 07:44 PM

It doesn't matter what people want, the reality is: Would it be economically viable? and the answer is: Probably Not.

The only US state that would have any hope of existing as a country, an idependant sovereignty on its own is California, and thats only because if it were a country on its own it would be the 6th wealthiest in the world.

And if Texas were it's own country, it's current economy would put it at number 10 in the world. Texas's economy is roughly equal that of Canada. Canada seems to be doing OK!

SLC

MacNut

Apr 28, 2009, 07:46 PM

And if Texas were it's own country, it's current economy would put it at number 10 in the world. Texas's economy is roughly equal that of Canada. Canada seems to be doing OK!

SLCTexas is also a huge oil port. I think it is in the countries best interest that they stay around.

dukebound85

Apr 28, 2009, 07:47 PM

Just curious but what does the constitution say about a state seceding.

if i remember right it in the texas state consitution

only state that has it

MacNut

Apr 28, 2009, 07:49 PM

if i remember right it in the texas state consitution

only state that has itThe Federal Government can't block it or levy fines?

There has to be more then just "ok we are leaving nice knowing you".

Macaddicttt

Apr 28, 2009, 07:52 PM

if i remember right it in the texas state consitution

only state that has it

No, it does not have that right anywhere in the constitution. It says in fact: "Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States..."

MacNut

Apr 28, 2009, 08:01 PM

Can someone find the written passage of the constitution on a state seceding from the union. I'm curious what it says on the issue.

Macaddicttt

Apr 28, 2009, 08:05 PM

Can someone find the written passage of the constitution on a state seceding from the union. I'm curious what it says on the issue.

There is no such passage.

MacNut

Apr 28, 2009, 08:06 PM

There is no such passage.So can any state just walk away from the union at any time?

Macaddicttt

Apr 28, 2009, 08:16 PM

So can any state just walk away from the union at any time?

No, that's up for debate (although common law so far has fallen decidedly on the "no state can secede" side). According to the line of thought behind the Union's involvement in the Civil War, you cannot secede at all. Look up Lincoln's thoughts on secession. Among them is, if the Constitution were like any other contract, wouldn't all parties have to agree to it?

bobber205

Apr 28, 2009, 08:16 PM

This is all that needs to be said...

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/funnyvideos/youtube/texas-secession.htm

CalBoy

Apr 28, 2009, 08:16 PM

There is no such passage.

Not explicitly, but the Supremacy Clause (Article VI, Section 2) says that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and in conjunction with the 14th Amendment (the privileges and immunities clause in particular), it would be unlawful for any state to deny its own citizens their American citizenship, which is presumed with secession.

So can any state just walk away from the union at any time?

Well, not really. We did fight a war over this remember? ;)

MacNut

Apr 28, 2009, 08:19 PM

Thats what I thought, the civil war stopped all the loop holes. Thats why I wonder what Texas is talking about. I would think they need all 50 states to vote on a amendment.

bruinsrme

Apr 28, 2009, 08:21 PM

Let them.

Then have the Federal govt pull out all their resources including border patrol, federal aid, any funding, the US military, impose similar import/export laws on technologies as the US does on countries like China.

Then they can team up with their neighbor Mexico.

The first major hurricane in the CC area they will be screming its the USA's fault for not sending relief.

rdowns

Apr 28, 2009, 08:26 PM

I'm in the let them go camp. Maybe GW can be their new President. Wonder where the Dallas Cowboys would move to. :D

CalBoy

Apr 28, 2009, 08:28 PM

Thats what I thought, the civil war stopped all the loop holes. Thats why I wonder what Texas is talking about. I would think they need all 50 states to vote on a amendment.

Well they wouldn't really need all 50 states to vote on such an amendment, but they would need 38 to approve of it, plus 290 House members and 67 senators.

But this is all moot anyway; Texas isn't going to secede. Aside from the sheer impracticality (does the Texas National Guard really have the ability to fight off the US Army, Air Force, and Navy?), we can all see that this is one obvious stunt that Republicans are throwing to try to paint the Democrats' agenda as extreme; I don't want to give it any more credence than it deserves, which it has already manage to wrangle from the media.

iJohnHenry

Apr 28, 2009, 08:32 PM

Where is the option for don't give a flying ******??

CalBoy

Apr 28, 2009, 08:33 PM

Where is the option for don't give a flying ******??

It's called abstention.

iJohnHenry

Apr 28, 2009, 08:35 PM

So, you deny me the right to decline my ballot even??? :mad:

bruinsrme

Apr 28, 2009, 08:44 PM

I'm in the let them go camp. Maybe GW can be their new President. Wonder where the Dallas Cowboys would move to. :D

let the cowboys stay.
Dalla Stars move to Hartford CT
houston Astros move to North Carolina
Texas Ranger can stay and play against the cowboys

iJohnHenry

Apr 28, 2009, 08:49 PM

See how that works without American TV dollars. ;)

EDIT: Oh, you devil, you mixed sports on me, didn't you. lol

bstreiff

Apr 28, 2009, 08:51 PM

Nope, Texas can't secede. See Texas v. White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White).

Tomorrow

Apr 28, 2009, 09:15 PM

Texas governor Rick Perry made comments that made it clear that he considered secession from the United States to be an option on the table.

No, he didn't; he made comments that the press interpreted as secessionist. You, along with the press, are putting those words in his mouth.

We've got several Texans here... what do y'all think about Perry's comments, and about secession from the Obama-led US (obviously there was no talk of secession under Bush)?

I haven't talked to a single soul who thinks we should secede. Not a one. Again, it's sensationalism in the press, and not what any large number of people here actually think.

We could encourage Mexico to invade. That would be amusing. Wouldn't be long before Texas came crawling back to us for help.

Lee, I don't know how much time you spend in Texas, but folks from Mexico are already here. Head down to San Antonio and you might not realize you're still a hundred miles or so from the border.

Now, I understand that Texas has a rather colorful history in this regard, and that many Texans envision themselves as the ultimate in self-sufficient frontiersmen,...

That was probably the case a very long time ago (like 150 years or so), but now the only ones here who think that way are a handful of nutjob wackos who call themselves "The Republic of Texas," and they say crazy things like Texas never joined the U.S. and try to claim sovereignty. Not a whole lot of people here give them any kind of credence.

I don't really understand all the hate going on here for Texas. I've lived here since 1995, and I like it here - but it sounds like there's a lot of venom coming from the people here from other states (or even from other countries), when we here don't feel the same way about the other states. The notion that Texans run around pounding their chests, claiming superiority over all other states, hating all things left of center, and generally resenting being a part of the U.S. is an unfortunate and very inaccurate stereotype.

BTW, if you don't believe my comment about hating things left of center, spend some time in Austin or San Antonio. It's enough to make Boston or San Francisco proud.

Zombie Acorn

Apr 28, 2009, 09:19 PM

If texas really wanted to secede I don't think they would bother with consulting US law to do it. Hire illegals to guard the borders all the way around.

KingYaba

Apr 28, 2009, 10:07 PM

But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people

The key word is continues because I guarantee you if Washington continues to thumb their nose Texas will not be the only state revolting.

At the end of the day this is Gov. Perry politicking. He's going to run against Sen. Kay "bail me out" Hutchinson from his own Republican Party and quite a few more candidates if the 2006 gubernatorial election is any indication... He's playing on the dissatisfaction many voters have with Washington D.C.

Tomorrow

Apr 28, 2009, 10:11 PM

But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people

The key word is continues because I guarantee you if Washington continues to thumb their nose Texas will not be the only state revolting.

News flash - Washington doesn't seem to be on the path toward changing any of their current policies - whether you think of it as thumbing their nose at Americans or not. So, what then?

Nothing. People will get angry, they'll stand on the corner with their signs, they'll continue to write letters to the editor, they'll call in to radio and TV talk shows, and generally continue to be discontent with the current policies. Nobody's going anywhere. Nobody is going to leave the country, nobody is going to push for secession - regardless of how you choose to interpret Governor Perry's statements.

Guys, this really is way, way too much ado about nothing. Again, it's the press trying to make a story bigger than it is; something at which they're very adept.

LumbermanSVO

Apr 28, 2009, 10:33 PM

Let them and their endless frontage roads go!

Cassie

Apr 28, 2009, 10:42 PM

Thats what I thought, the civil war stopped all the loop holes. Thats why I wonder what Texas is talking about. I would think they need all 50 states to vote on a amendment.

I'm not completely sure, but IIRC, we retained the right to succeed when we joined the US. (And something else about being able to fly our state flag at the same height as the US flag.)

CalBoy

Apr 28, 2009, 10:45 PM

PcBgone

Apr 28, 2009, 10:45 PM

News flash - Washington doesn't seem to be on the path toward changing any of their current policies - whether you think of it as thumbing their nose at Americans or not. So, what then?

Nothing. People will get angry, they'll stand on the corner with their signs, they'll continue to write letters to the editor, they'll call in to radio and TV talk shows, and generally continue to be discontent with the current policies. Nobody's going anywhere. Nobody is going to leave the country, nobody is going to push for secession - regardless of how you choose to interpret Governor Perry's statements.

Guys, this really is way, way too much ado about nothing. Again, it's the press trying to make a story bigger than it is; something at which they're very adept.

Obviously you are living in Austin, or Houston, the two most liberal cities in Texas. Drive around to actual TEXAN country, where you dont have hippies everywhere. Texans are fed up with the Government in DC. They tell us how to live, what we have to believe, and now what weapons we can own?

True Texans(not those in Austin or Houston) are quite upset with how America is treating its people. Many everyday people that I have spoken to have gained a sense of pride with Perry's Comments. I support him 100%

For all the haters, who claim that we cant survive as a nation, We did once before. We kicked Santa Anna back to Mexico, and declared our Independence. The reason we joined the Union in the first place was because Texas was broke. We didnt have any gold to back our currency. We dont need gold now. We have Oil. If Mexico, or the US invaded Texas, Trust me, we would be able to handle it. The ranks of the Texas Guard would swell so fast that it would be like Vietnam all over for the US.

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:zKf_1c8z47Qe9M:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mLKv8vSnAsI/SYU0Hg3mrHI/AAAAAAAAACA/Kq25TR54mxE/S1600-R/dont_tread_on_me.gif

KingYaba

Apr 28, 2009, 10:57 PM

oil

The economic sanctions would strangle Texas. Texas is successful because of commerce with the rest of the union and internationally. If Texas split by itself, I doubt Exxon or Peterbilt (for example) would stick around. Companies and people would leave.

Also, in before twenty replies to your post. Some of whom will mock and or make fun of you.

Sun Baked

Apr 28, 2009, 11:04 PM

Can't we just sell Texas back to Mexico?

Tomorrow

Apr 28, 2009, 11:06 PM

I'm not completely sure, but IIRC, we retained the right to succeed when we joined the US. (And something else about being able to fly our state flag at the same height as the US flag.)

Texas DID retain the right to split into up to five different states upon joining the US; none of the rest is correct.

Obviously you are living in Austin, or Houston, the two most liberal cities in Texas.

Oh please. Houston is almost as red as they come. And I live in Dallas.

True Texans(not those in Austin or Houston) are quite upset with how America is treating its people. Many everyday people that I have spoken to have gained a sense of pride with Perry's Comments. I support him 100%

I'm also upset with how we're being treated economically by the Federal government. I don't support the stimulus package that passed. I do support Governor Perry - I've voted for him twice and I will again. But what I said about him is that he never said anything about secession.

For all the haters, who claim that we cant survive as a nation, We did once before.

Actually, Texas didn't survive as a nation. Texas was annexed by the U.S. largely for protection from Mexico, since Mexico never recognized Texas' independence and even went as far as to send some small-scale invasions into Texas.

We kicked Santa Anna back to Mexico, and declared our Independence. The reason we joined the Union in the first place was because Texas was broke. We didnt have any gold to back our currency. We dont need gold now. We have Oil. If Mexico, or the US invaded Texas, Trust me, we would be able to handle it. The ranks of the Texas Guard would swell so fast that it would be like Vietnam all over for the US.

This is what I've been talking about. I don't know what part of Texas you're in, but you're not part of a majority. When the chips fall, people here know there's virtually nothing whatsoever to gain by any notion of leaving the U.S. It's fun to talk up a big game, but that's exactly why the haters hate.

If you really think a lack of gold is the only reason Texas failed as an independent country, I'd suggest you do some research. The idea that we could split off and succeed economically just because we're off the gold standard is a shortsighted fallacy. There's not enough going on here in terms of agriculture, education, infrastructure, defense, etc. to make it without any Federal money. It's fun to think so, but it's just plain incorrect.

PcBgone

Apr 28, 2009, 11:11 PM

The economic sanctions would strangle Texas. Texas is successful because of commerce with the rest of the union and internationally. If Texas split by itself, I doubt Exxon (for example) would stick around. Other companies and people would leave.

Also, in before twenty replies to your post.

Please. There are 24 million people in Texas. Do you think Exxon is going to pull out and loose access to 24 million peoples vehicles? If Texas ever secedes again(which by the way I dont think we are at that point, yet) We would still trade internationally. If the US didnt want to trade with us, then so be it. They would loose out on 4,509,196 barrels/day of oil being produced. Guess what, that would make your gas more expensive.

As for as people leaving, those would only be the hippies leaving. To them I say good riddance. And dont let the door hit you on the way out.

PcBgone

Apr 28, 2009, 11:24 PM

Actually, Texas didn't survive as a nation. Texas was annexed by the U.S. largely for protection from Mexico, since Mexico never recognized Texas' independence and even went as far as to send some small-scale invasions into Texas.

This is what I've been talking about. I don't know what part of Texas you're in, but you're not part of a majority. When the chips fall, people here know there's virtually nothing whatsoever to gain by any notion of leaving the U.S. It's fun to talk up a big game, but that's exactly why the haters hate.

If you really think a lack of gold is the only reason Texas failed as an independent country, I'd suggest you do some research. The idea that we could split off and succeed economically just because we're off the gold standard is a shortsighted fallacy. There's not enough going on here in terms of agriculture, education, infrastructure, defense, etc. to make it without any Federal money. It's fun to think so, but it's just plain incorrect.

Bud, My family has been in Texas for a very long time. I had an ancestor who fought and died at the Alamo. My ancestors were one of the few who got land under Stephen F Austin from Mexico to settle Texas. I think I know a bit or two of our Independence and the decision to join the US. I think its you who needs to do some research on Texas.

Texas at the time of it being its own country, did not have enough money to support the Army/Navy. We had no Gold. We can defend ourselves from Mexico. After all we defeated Mexico, which at the time was one of the most wealthy nations in the world. There was no fear of an attack from Mexico. We simply couldnt pay our bills, to uphold the army/navy, to pay our debts, to build infrastructure. Texas didnt have a wealthy population at the time that could support such things.

Houston is a liberal city http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/1min/election_results/maps/TX.jpg See the blue on Houston? Liberals, along with the Austin/Dallas, San Antonio and South Texas Areas. the rest of the state is highly Republican. Im not stating we are seceding tomorrow. Perry never said that either. If Washington continues down its path though, Perry said secession was an option. Which I would support, and Im certain all those Red Counties would as well.

yg17

Apr 28, 2009, 11:32 PM

They tell us how to live, what we have to believe, and now what weapons we can own?

Who the hell is telling you how to live and what to believe? And who's taking away the guns? No one is. You all are just pissed off because we have a Democratic administration and congress. When the republicans were ********* up this country for the first 6 years of the decade, no Democratic governor threatened to secede.

MacNut

Apr 28, 2009, 11:34 PM

Ya they all just threatened to move to Canada.:p

Kashchei

Apr 28, 2009, 11:37 PM

As for as people leaving, those would only be the hippies leaving. To them I say good riddance. And dont let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh my god, I wonder if PcBgone is the screen name for Eric Cartman!

yg17

Apr 28, 2009, 11:40 PM

And the secession of Texas would mean that a bunch of white trash, gun toting, hood wearing rednecks would leave the US. To them I say good riddance. And dont let the door hit you on the way out.

See, generalizations are fun :rolleyes:

Tomorrow

Apr 28, 2009, 11:48 PM

Please. There are 24 million people in Texas. Do you think Exxon is going to pull out and loose access to 24 million peoples vehicles?

Yes. They would pull out and sell to the remaining 275 million people in the U.S. and the other 5.75 billion in the rest of the world. There's no way the U.S. would allow any other country to trade with a sovereign Texas, and yes, the U.S. has the means to enforce that. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Bud, My family has been in Texas for a very long time. I had an ancestor who fought and died at the Alamo. My ancestors were one of the few who got land under Stephen F Austin from Mexico to settle Texas. I think I know a bit or two of our Independence and the decision to join the US.

All fine by me, but none of this refutes the facts I posted earlier.

Texas at the time of it being its own country, did not have enough money to support the Army/Navy. We had no Gold. We can defend ourselves from Mexico. After all we defeated Mexico, which at the time was one of the most wealthy nations in the world. There was no fear of an attack from Mexico. We simply couldnt pay our bills, to uphold the army/navy, to pay our debts, to build infrastructure. Texas didnt have a wealthy population at the time that could support such things.

You still don't get it - it's about so much more than just money. The U.S. could squeeze the economic life out of Texas, and would, if it came to that.

If Washington continues down its path though, Perry said secession was an option.

Actually, he didn't say that at all. People are reading too much into his words.

...no Democratic governor threatened to secede.

Neither did any other Governor. Read his words again.

Gelfin

Apr 28, 2009, 11:48 PM

True Texans(not those in Austin or Houston) are quite upset with how America is treating its people.

But how do true Scotsmen feel?

Digital Skunk

Apr 29, 2009, 01:09 AM

You still don't get it - it's about so much more than just money. The U.S. could squeeze the economic life out of Texas, and would, if it came to that.

This is the true fact RIGHT HERE.

For those that may not get it, Texas, or any other state for that reason, just doesn't have the resources available to them to succeed and make it as an independent country. California is just as egotistical and it would fail as a separate country as well.

The economy is what makes a successful nation, and an independent California or Texas would have a failing economy from day 1.

And contrary to popular demand, the US (as well as the states that make it up) owes a $h!t load of money to other nations. I am sure the US would love to collect on that debt if a state should succeed. That debt also brings lots of questions into the discussion, like the lack of social security (paid by the feds) that would suddenly disappear.

hulugu

Apr 29, 2009, 01:30 AM

But how do true Scotsmen feel?

Well, bud my family was in Scotland for a very long time. I had an ancestor who fought and died at the Battle of Stirling Bridge, so I think I know a bit or two about whatever it is we're talking about.

Counterfit

Apr 29, 2009, 01:50 AM

California should secede....we are better then every other state anyways :p. Oh wait, what about our huge debt?! No problem...we can print our own money now to pay our bills! :D

Well hey, you guys are going to be in island in a few tens of thousands of years anyway!
This is all that needs to be said...

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/funnyvideos/youtube/texas-secession.htm

Oh man, I sure would miss Z.Z. Top. :(
I would think they need all 50 states to vote on a amendment.
75% of state legislatures.

let the cowboys stay.
Dalla Stars move to Hartford CT
Texas Ranger can stay and play against the cowboys

Tony Romo pitches a football to Josh Hamilton, who launches it into the bleachers?
What would this sport be called? Bootball? Faseball?

And I don't think Hartford can support an NHL team anymore. :p *cough*Whalers*cough*
For all the haters, who claim that we cant survive as a nation, We did once before. We kicked Santa Anna back to Mexico, and declared our Independence. The reason we joined the Union in the first place was because Texas was broke. We didnt have any gold to back our currency. We dont need gold now. We have Oil.

So no, you did NOT survive as a nation.

If Mexico, or the US invaded Texas, Trust me, we would be able to handle it. The ranks of the Texas Guard would swell so fast that it would be like Vietnam all over for the US.
Hmm, if we assume that the number of soldiers would decrease at a rate approximately equal to the total population loss from a secession, that would still leave 1.3 million active duty soldiers in the 49 other states (I was actually a little generous, and went with a 10% loss in soldiers, also, that number includes the USCG). Of course, none of this accounts for people who leave.
Do you think Exxon is going to pull out and loose access to 24 million peoples vehicles? If Texas ever secedes again(which by the way I dont think we are at that point, yet) We would still trade internationally. If the US didnt want to trade with us, then so be it. They would loose out on 4,509,196 barrels/day of oil being produced.
As mentioned, the sanctions levied against a seceded Texas would be as harsh, or worse, as those levied on Cuba. Do you really think that ExxonMobil would jeopardize their access to markets like California, which has more than twice as many cars as Texas has people? I think you greatly underestimate the bullying power of the US economy, even sans-Texas.
If Washington continues down its path though, Perry said secession was an option. Which I would support, and Im certain all those Red Counties would as well.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 115 > § 2381
§ 2381. Treason

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Because we all know it wouldn't happen without a fight.

kastenbrust

Apr 29, 2009, 07:01 AM

Wait.... if Texas secedes then no Bush can ever be President of the US ever again :D woohoooo

imac/cheese

Apr 29, 2009, 08:03 AM

I had a very delicious pulled pork sandwich when i visited the state.
That aside, id like to hear what the natives have to say about secession...

You ate pulled pork in brisket country? I couldn't find a good pulled pork sandwich anywhere when I lived in Texas.

rdowns

Apr 29, 2009, 08:12 AM

You ate pulled pork in brisket country? I couldn't find a good pulled pork sandwich anywhere when I lived in Texas.

Apparently, you haven't been paying attention. All the pork is in Washington.

Tomorrow

Apr 29, 2009, 08:16 AM

Wait.... if Texas secedes then no Bush can ever be President of the US ever again :D woohoooo

True, but the first two Presidents Bush were born outside of Texas.

yg17

Apr 29, 2009, 09:11 AM

True, but the first two Presidents Bush were born outside of Texas.

But if they moved to Texas and gained Texas citizenship, they would no longer be US citizens and couldn't run for president.

iJohnHenry

Apr 29, 2009, 09:18 AM

Ya they all just threatened to move to Canada.:p

Just a minute!!! Why are we being threatened?? http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g158/MouseMeat/Smilies/71e590bb.gif

It's the swine flu thing, isn't it? ;)

Wait.... if Texas secedes then no Bush can ever be President of the US ever again :D woohoooo

True, but the first two Presidents Bush were born outside of Texas.

But if they moved to Texas and gained Texas citizenship, they would no longer be US citizens and couldn't run for president.

Let us not forget Jeb, Bush (http://2012obama.com/presidential-polls/jeb-bush-vs-obama-in-2012-presidential-election/) the Younger, already the King of Florida.

Desertrat

Apr 29, 2009, 10:54 AM

I saw the TV clips of Perry's talk. I just figured he was having fun, tweaking the administration for all their silliness.

Not much real point in worrying about secession. Folks get all excited over family squabbles, which is all this really is.

As far as economic viability, Texas would make out quite well. We'd be very close to energy independent. (We already are, insofar as electricity; we're not tied to other states' grids.) We'd be self-sufficient in food production. Our tax structure is attractive to industry and small business. We're among the leaders in medicine and such things as cancer research/treatment. Our four major ports would make international trade a continuing activity. We're already a major center for high-tech in the world of computers, both in academics and in business. (IT in India? A lot of their PhDs came from the UT-Austin Computer Science department. I know, since my ex-wife was the boss' secretary there. "Den-mother", as it were. We were gonna organize the Austin Chapter of the Khyber Rifles, and call them the Turban Cowboys. :))

Military? A fairly high percentage of the US armed forces is of folks from Texas. If (more likely, when) they come home, the US would probably need to institute a Draft to play catch-up. :)

We'd likely do quite well as an independent Republic. But, I don't see the need, really. Besides, I enjoy a lot of the rest of this old country, and I'd hate to see a bunch of silly hassle about borders and suchlike.

Politicians gotta run their mouths. It's what they're best at--most anywhere.

'Rat

mactastic

Apr 29, 2009, 11:51 AM

No, he didn't; he made comments that the press interpreted as secessionist. You, along with the press, are putting those words in his mouth.
Did he not insinuate that secession was an option if things didn't go the way he wanted?

I haven't talked to a single soul who thinks we should secede. Not a one. Again, it's sensationalism in the press, and not what any large number of people here actually think.
Obviously you have now, "bud"! :D

That was probably the case a very long time ago (like 150 years or so), but now the only ones here who think that way are a handful of nutjob wackos who call themselves "The Republic of Texas," and they say crazy things like Texas never joined the U.S. and try to claim sovereignty. Not a whole lot of people here give them any kind of credence.
I think you need to look a little deeper...

I don't really understand all the hate going on here for Texas. I've lived here since 1995, and I like it here - but it sounds like there's a lot of venom coming from the people here from other states (or even from other countries), when we here don't feel the same way about the other states. The notion that Texans run around pounding their chests, claiming superiority over all other states, hating all things left of center, and generally resenting being a part of the U.S. is an unfortunate and very inaccurate stereotype.
I never said Texans do any of those things. You're now putting words in my mouth, exactly what you said was bad when you thought I did it to Perry (even though I didn't). But you can't deny that there is a certain mythical image certain Texans (not all of course) have of themselves that relates to their ties to the frontier days. So much of Texas history is steeped in this heroic imagery.

BTW, if you don't believe my comment about hating things left of center, spend some time in Austin or San Antonio. It's enough to make Boston or San Francisco proud.
And, of course, I could tell you to go spend some time in Bakersfield or Twentynine Palms, and then dare you to tell me that California is a liberal state.

Guys, this really is way, way too much ado about nothing. Again, it's the press trying to make a story bigger than it is; something at which they're very adept.
IMHO, this is Perry trying to out-crazy Hutchison in a bid to stake out the early lead among the far-right conservative base, not a story manufactured by the press. Perry is dog-whistling the secessionist tune that he know plays to those who hate Obama.

Would Perry have dared make such comments when George W. Bush was president? Of course not, it wouldn't have been good politics.

I'm not completely sure, but IIRC, we retained the right to succeed when we joined the US. (And something else about being able to fly our state flag at the same height as the US flag.)
Perhaps y'all oughta try succeeding one of these days. ;)

But what I said about him is that he never said anything about secession.
Yes he did. He said he didn't think Texas needed to secede right now, but that if things don't change...

And then he left it at that. That's talk flirting with secession, just as I claimed -- and you have repeatedly denied.

This is what I've been talking about. I don't know what part of Texas you're in, but you're not part of a majority. When the chips fall, people here know there's virtually nothing whatsoever to gain by any notion of leaving the U.S. It's fun to talk up a big game, but that's exactly why the haters hate.
Again, please note I never claimed that any kind of majority of Texans support secession, only that a non-trivial *minority* do. And I'm guessing that for most of them, it's a new-found support. Like since January 20th.

As for as people leaving, those would only be the hippies leaving. To them I say good riddance. And dont let the door hit you on the way out.
Ah, but if Texas secedes, it would only be the white supremacists leaving. To them I say good riddance. And don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Damn it's fun to generalize...

When the republicans were ********* up this country for the first 6 years of the decade, no Democratic governor threatened to secede.
Holy cow, can you imagine the screeching that would have come from the AM radio dial if Massachusett's or California's governor had made comments flirting with secession from George W. Bush's America?

We sure don't want Texas values spreading through the rest of "Real America™"

Wait.... if Texas secedes then no Bush can ever be President of the US ever again :D woohoooo
Ah, but then Perry would have to worry about running for President of Tejas against George W. Bush, who would no longer be constitutionally forbidden from running for the office. I wonder if Perry thought about that... :p

Desertrat

Apr 29, 2009, 03:17 PM

leekohler

Apr 29, 2009, 03:28 PM

Bud, My family has been in Texas for a very long time. I had an ancestor who fought and died at the Alamo. My ancestors were one of the few who got land under Stephen F Austin from Mexico to settle Texas. I think I know a bit or two of our Independence and the decision to join the US. I think its you who needs to do some research on Texas.

Texas at the time of it being its own country, did not have enough money to support the Army/Navy. We had no Gold. We can defend ourselves from Mexico. After all we defeated Mexico, which at the time was one of the most wealthy nations in the world. There was no fear of an attack from Mexico. We simply couldnt pay our bills, to uphold the army/navy, to pay our debts, to build infrastructure. Texas didnt have a wealthy population at the time that could support such things.

Houston is a liberal city http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/1min/election_results/maps/TX.jpg See the blue on Houston? Liberals, along with the Austin/Dallas, San Antonio and South Texas Areas. the rest of the state is highly Republican. Im not stating we are seceding tomorrow. Perry never said that either. If Washington continues down its path though, Perry said secession was an option. Which I would support, and Im certain all those Red Counties would as well.

Really? We can be rid of you guys that easily? By all means- secede! :D We'll take your liberals and you guys can have your little theocracy.

iJohnHenry

Apr 29, 2009, 05:37 PM

We say that to the Quebecois, and they respond: "Oh, boo hoo, you don't love us any more."http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g158/MouseMeat/Smilies/crybaby.gif

But, in their case, they only want to keep the grease flowing from Ottawa.

I don't see the same impedious here.

zap2

Apr 29, 2009, 05:43 PM

True Texans(not those in Austin or Houston) are quite upset with how America is treating its people.

Wow, so you know who is a true texan and who isn't? Thats a special gift you have there! (Also the polls clearly show its a not as cut and dry as you're suggesting)

For all the haters, who claim that we cant survive as a nation, We did once before.

Yes, because they world when that happened and today are so similar :rolleyes:

Trust me, we would be able to handle it.

Well, since you said that, ok! :rolleyes:

The ranks of the Texas Guard would swell so fast that it would be like Vietnam all over for the US.

Is that so? One polls disagree it would be so universal as you're saying...two, who would be backing you? Gonna go get support from who?

The US would come down so hard on Texas...its be like the civil war...but the US's amry is so much stronger(even with respect for dates...the US is a world power now, it the mid 1800s, it wasn't nearly as powerful.

But then again, this won't ever happen

me_94501

Apr 29, 2009, 05:49 PM

Texans are fed up with the Government in DC. They tell us how to live, what we have to believe, and now what weapons we can own?

Care to elaborate beyond rhetoric?

I occasionally heard similar comments from the far left when Bush was in office. Seems childish.

rjgonzales

Apr 29, 2009, 08:09 PM

Obviously you are living in Austin, or Houston, the two most liberal cities in Texas. Drive around to actual TEXAN country, where you dont have hippies everywhere. Texans are fed up with the Government in DC. They tell us how to live, what we have to believe, and now what weapons we can own?

True Texans(not those in Austin or Houston) are quite upset with how America is treating its people. Many everyday people that I have spoken to have gained a sense of pride with Perry's Comments. I support him 100%

For all the haters, who claim that we cant survive as a nation, We did once before. We kicked Santa Anna back to Mexico, and declared our Independence. The reason we joined the Union in the first place was because Texas was broke. We didnt have any gold to back our currency. We dont need gold now. We have Oil. If Mexico, or the US invaded Texas, Trust me, we would be able to handle it. The ranks of the Texas Guard would swell so fast that it would be like Vietnam all over for the US.

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:zKf_1c8z47Qe9M:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mLKv8vSnAsI/SYU0Hg3mrHI/AAAAAAAAACA/Kq25TR54mxE/S1600-R/dont_tread_on_me.gif

You are the reason the rest of the country makes fun of us.

Perry is a moron and should be tried for treason.

Desertrat

Apr 29, 2009, 08:28 PM

Now,now, rjgonzales. :) It might help if you will recall that "treason" means giving aid and comfort to an enemy in time of war. Perry's just exercising his First Amendment right. That you disagree with him in no way makes his exercise of that right to be treasonous.

bruinsrme

Apr 29, 2009, 08:58 PM

And I don't think Hartford can support an NHL team anymore. :p .

UNTRUE

Hockey in this part of the country is thriving.

hartford is the perfect city. The rivalry between NYs, boston, and the hurricanes would be over 20% of their season.

Dallas, once Madonna retires the team will be like the Avs and not make the playoffs. Oh wait we don't ahve to wait for his retirement.

mactastic

Apr 29, 2009, 10:30 PM

mac, I'm not sure Dubya could win an election for President of the Republic of Texas. It's one thing to deal with a governor's problems, but something else entirely to be Big Manager of a nation-state. A lot of his domestic ideas weren't that favorably received here.

There's a lot of teasing and joking about all this "Texas is best!" stuff. But you scratch past the surface, and most folks here look at "good of the nation" above parochial interests.

I guess that if there's a statewide trait, it's mouthiness against the "slacker syndrome".

'RatI'm not sure Dubya could win an election for dogcatcher in Sugarland.

Now,now, rjgonzales. :) It might help if you will recall that "treason" means giving aid and comfort to an enemy in time of war. Perry's just exercising his First Amendment right. That you disagree with him in no way makes his exercise of that right to be treasonous.
You might wanna go explain that to the likes of Ann Coulter and all the other Republicans who used that kind of rhetoric over the past 8 years...

mactastic

Apr 29, 2009, 10:42 PM

oops... double post.

atszyman

Apr 30, 2009, 01:19 AM

I'm in the let them go camp. Maybe GW can be their new President. Wonder where the Dallas Cowboys would move to. :D

Bah, the NFL would love it, at least then they'd have more than one country involved when they ran the Super Bowl as a "world championship." And what about the Texans?

blackfox

Apr 30, 2009, 03:43 AM

...SNIP

Houston is a liberal city http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/1min/election_results/maps/TX.jpg See the blue on Houston? Liberals, along with the Austin/Dallas, San Antonio and South Texas Areas. the rest of the state is highly Republican. Im not stating we are seceding tomorrow. Perry never said that either. If Washington continues down its path though, Perry said secession was an option. Which I would support, and Im certain all those Red Counties would as well.

Just an aside, but all those "blue" areas happen to be the major Texas cities, with somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the total population of Texas. They would have to agree to anything to make it work, despite all the "Red" counties.

BTW, I lived in Texas for nearly a decade, and I loved it. I may have been in a "blue" city (Austin), but the people were great everywhere I went, the scenery in the Hill country around Austin/San Antonio was beautiful and the weather was pretty great (a little on the hot side).

Whether secession would ever work aside, Texans have a pride in their state that I haven't seen in any other state - which I find generally admirable.

takao

Apr 30, 2009, 04:33 AM

about independent economy: if only the US embargoed texas you still would be screwed ... just like cuba is screwed until US stops their ridiculous embargo
the US is simply too big and close to ignore as trading partner

on oil discussion: yeah you have surplus which means in case of US embargo the fuel price in rest US will go up a little and yours go down massivly
until of course oil tankers stop running in ... because it's simply more profitable to sell in other parts

and if it would come to a war guess how long those refineries would last...

stevento

Apr 30, 2009, 05:35 AM

Well, first let me say that I hate Texas. I balked at the idea of transferring flights in San Antonio.

America has had enough crap out of texas, two Bushes and Ann Coulter. We don't need anymore. But the idea of a state seceding from the union is ridiculous to me.

Desertrat

Apr 30, 2009, 11:51 AM

takao, you really think embargoes do any good? Cuba trades with pretty much every other country in the world except the U.S. Are you trying to make me believe that goods are only available from the U.S.? That their monetary problems stem solely from our embargo, and not from a failed socio/economic system?

Do you lust for a shooting war over secession? It seems to me that without a popular vote, it's all mouth-music, anyway. But, say 2/3 of the public voted "Let's leave!" Wouldn't there then be a cause taken to SCOTUS to see if there is any constitutional reason that secession could not occur?

stevento, after wandering through some twenty countries and forty states, I see no reason to get all emotional against Texas. While almost any of the western states have attractions, I've found that Texas is as good as any and for me, better than most. While many other places have good people, interesting geography and enjoyable entertainment, Texas ranks adequately high on the list.

There's a sign on I-20 at a small town west of Fort Worth: "Home of 3,400 friendly people and 3 old curmudgeons". Me, I look at the friendly folks, and don't worry about the curmudgeons.

mac, you can worry about Ann Coulter all you want. Me, I just regret our loss of some really neat Texans: Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan and Ann Richards. I knew them all, and miss them...

'Rat